Re: Watch Your Backs out there- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Re: Watch Your Backs out there

    Had got this post from the Icebike forum. Don't know how long it'll last:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFISP...126&feature=iv

  2. #2
    No-Brakes Cougar
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    For a stomach-turning accountof the whole incident, please read this: http://www.ibiketo.ca/blog/2009/09/1...-lawyer-weighs

    One question.... and no it's not OK to run people over, just because they're in your way, but WTF was he doing pulling in front of a car stopped at a traffic light in the first place?
    R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio ~ July 10, 1942 May 16, 2010

  3. #3
    I'm SUCH a square....
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    Also ask yourself: WTF was the car doing that far back from the intersection? I've seen other cars take space like that at intersections, too.

    Been following this from another source, and it's heartbreaking, sickening, rage-inducing, the whole spectrum.

    The worst of it all -- even worse than Sheppard dying -- is the lower-than-whalesh** way they're trying to paint a dead man as the bad guy here.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  4. #4
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    I saw this and looked into it a little more.

    By no means to I detract from the tragedy of Shepperds death, however, there may be more to it than is openly known right now. This case will go to court OCT 19, and the driver here is at least CLAIMING that at the peak violence of the incident (where he was driving with shepperd clamped onto the side of his car) it was self defense. Going on the innocent unless proven guilty theory, we ought to not assume he did anything wrong until we know all of the facts.

    In my opinion I think the facts, as they pan out, will show that there was probably some poor judgement on both sides, but that all in all, this was just a tragic incident that got way out of hand way too quick.

    From what little I have read, Shepperd was no saint, and the driver was not the violent type. It is clear from the admission of those close to him, and police reports, that shepperd was intoxicated at the time, and did have a problem with alcohol (don't flame me and call me lower than whale poo, those are the facts). Don't get me wrong, it doesn't by any means, mean that he DESERVED what happened, nor does it lessen the tragedy of his death. Not at all. It was tragic, no matter what. I think, however, it will pan out that some of Shepperd's behaviors may have contributed to this incident, including the severe consequences, and we may want to pause a moment or two before we size up a noose for the driver's neck in this case.

    I also think that as cyclists, and commuters, we ought to be very careful before we start rattling the saber at every single motorist involved in an accident with a cyclist. There are many circumstances where cyclists contribute to the incident through their own behavior, and it's important for the general public's opinion of cyclists, for us to acknowledge that when it happens, instead of painting every accident as entirely at the fault of the evil car-drivers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy33
    I saw this and looked into it a little more.

    By no means to I detract from the tragedy of Shepperds death, however, there may be more to it than is openly known right now. This case will go to court OCT 19, and the driver here is at least CLAIMING that at the peak violence of the incident (where he was driving with shepperd clamped onto the side of his car) it was self defense. Going on the innocent unless proven guilty theory, we ought to not assume he did anything wrong until we know all of the facts.

    In my opinion I think the facts, as they pan out, will show that there was probably some poor judgement on both sides, but that all in all, this was just a tragic incident that got way out of hand way too quick.

    From what little I have read, Shepperd was no saint, and the driver was not the violent type. It is clear from the admission of those close to him, and police reports, that shepperd was intoxicated at the time, and did have a problem with alcohol (don't flame me and call me lower than whale poo, those are the facts). Don't get me wrong, it doesn't by any means, mean that he DESERVED what happened, nor does it lessen the tragedy of his death. Not at all. It was tragic, no matter what. I think, however, it will pan out that some of Shepperd's behaviors may have contributed to this incident, including the severe consequences, and we may want to pause a moment or two before we size up a noose for the driver's neck in this case.

    I also think that as cyclists, and commuters, we ought to be very careful before we start rattling the saber at every single motorist involved in an accident with a cyclist. There are many circumstances where cyclists contribute to the incident through their own behavior, and it's important for the general public's opinion of cyclists, for us to acknowledge that when it happens, instead of painting every accident as entirely at the fault of the evil car-drivers.
    While I agree that there is possibly more to this story than we will ever know, the driver intentionally hit / ran down the cyclist starting this chain of events. I would be curious what behavior would justify the driver's reaction. I mean, sure, if he was kicking a dog or hurting a child, or robbing an old lady, hit him with your car. If he just came around you and pulled in front rather pretentiously, um, no.

    I've seen people get crazy angry about cyclists. Intolerant about every little thing. And they are responsible for their anger, not the cyclist.

    And fwiw, this isn't an attempt to flame you. I considered the same thing. But watching that moment at the start when he hits Shepperd, if he gets NOTHING else, he'd better be charged with assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary the No-Trash Cougar
    WTF was he doing pulling in front of a car stopped at a traffic light in the first place?
    I'm not sure what the laws for bicyclists are in Toronto, but in Vancouver, there is something called a "bicycle box"; a designated zone between the first stopped car and the intersection where bicyclists are allowed to pull ahead in front of stopped cars at an intersection. This is to allow bicyclists to cross the intersection or make a right turn ahead of car traffic when the light turns green.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JunkShip
    While I agree that there is possibly more to this story than we will ever know, the driver intentionally hit / ran down the cyclist starting this chain of events. I would be curious what behavior would justify the driver's reaction. I mean, sure, if he was kicking a dog or hurting a child, or robbing an old lady, hit him with your car. If he just came around you and pulled in front rather pretentiously, um, no.

    I've seen people get crazy angry about cyclists. Intolerant about every little thing. And they are responsible for their anger, not the cyclist.

    And fwiw, this isn't an attempt to flame you. I considered the same thing. But watching that moment at the start when he hits Shepperd, if he gets NOTHING else, he'd better be charged with assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder.
    FWIW, I don't feel flamed at all, brother. A good discussion has at least two sides, otherwise it's just a monologue!

    After reading your response I looked again at the video, and I tend to lean a little more in your direction. I didn't see the full-car-length run-down after the initial bump (which really could have been accidental--bad driving at the least, but far from manslaughter).

    I too would be hard-pressed to find a good reason for a driver to do this, but I still think much more is there than we are seeing.

  8. #8
    No-Brakes Cougar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayz28
    I'm not sure what the laws for bicyclists are in Toronto, but in Vancouver, there is something called a "bicycle box"; a designated zone between the first stopped car and the intersection where bicyclists are allowed to pull ahead in front of stopped cars at an intersection. This is to allow bicyclists to cross the intersection or make a right turn ahead of car traffic when the light turns green.
    Oh, OK. They have those in Europe. I believe there are also a few places here in the States where they have those as well. I hear mixed opinions about there usefulness.
    R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio ~ July 10, 1942 May 16, 2010

  9. #9
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    From the video it seems pretty messed up. The driver likely hit the bike and the cyclist twice and then decided to just drive around him. Personally, I'd be livid, drunk or not. The guy in the Saab then proceeds to jet down the road on the wrong side in attempts to pick the guy off his car.

    Eye witnesses say the guy in the Saab was yelling angrily- one of them mentioned road rage. Honestly, if someone took me out like that and then tried to drive away, I'd try to stop them just so they'd be responsible for damages to my bike.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayz28
    I'm not sure what the laws for bicyclists are in Toronto, but in Vancouver, there is something called a "bicycle box"; a designated zone between the first stopped car and the intersection where bicyclists are allowed to pull ahead in front of stopped cars at an intersection. This is to allow bicyclists to cross the intersection or make a right turn ahead of car traffic when the light turns green.
    No such boxes here in Toronto.
    Cheers, Dave

  11. #11
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    The discussion about the box in front off the car etc. reminds me how spoiled I am living in Bike friendly western europe. Here in Germany almost every road has a bike lane, OR (more often) a physically-separated lane for bikes. In some of the larger cities there are even separate lights, crosswalks and generally more involved ttraffic control for bikes. Even out in the countryside, where there aren't bike lanes paralleling the road, there are bike lanes that will get you from the same A to B points as those roads.

    In my 23 km commute to work I share the road with cars for about 3-4 km, and most of that is in two villages that I COULD bypass on the outskirts via bike lane if I wanted to, but the bike lane's gravel and dirt are a little slower than the road through town.

    The best part is ringing my little bell to make the pedestrians get out of the bike lane, instead of having to stop for them (even if they're in the wrong) like you would in a car... and you'd be amazed at the effectiveness of the bike bell over here where they've all been indoctrinated by years of sharing the sidewalk with cyclists.

    I guess what I'm sayin is that I consider myself very lucky and feel for you guys that have to slogg through miles and miles of being swooshed, sideswiped, honked at or even just straight up plowed into by cars...

  12. #12
    jfk
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    Jonesy33, I like your bike lanes too. My wife is German and has only been in the US for 3 years. I hear about your system constantly. She attached a bell to both of her bikes, but it seems to confuse most people in the US (she also enjoys wearing a shirt that say "what part of 'ding ding' don't you understand" printed on the back). She's asked for an air horn, but stories like this make me feel nervous about her using such a thing.

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