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  1. #1
    OFT
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    Troys re-route

    Lame, built for beginners, just like all the other ones. COPMOBA has officially lost my $$ support.

  2. #2
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFT
    Lame, built for beginners, just like all the other ones. COPMOBA has officially lost my $$ support.
    Always a bummer to be too rad for the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OFT
    Lame, built for beginners, just like all the other ones. COPMOBA has officially lost my $$ support.
    Are there trails in the GV that you do like? Have you ever complimented anyone on building those?

    Go ride elsewhere.

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    I think all that Mountain Dew has inflated your ego

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    I was going to ride Troy Built yesterday to check out the re-route, but ended up doing Moore Fun; therefore, I can't comment on that section of trail (OFT may be correct in his assessment).

    There are definitely alot more home runs than strikeouts with recent re-routes (i.e. Gunny Loop DT bypass, Gunny Loop steep-loose-rocky-unridable climb bypass, lower Moore Fun, Eagle's Tail, etc).

  6. #6
    OFT
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    Not rad, just not a beginner.

  7. #7
    OFT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scary Mc
    Are there trails in the GV that you do like? Have you ever complimented anyone on building those?

    Go ride elsewhere.
    I like and have contributed to several of the trails in the grand valley. Yes I have complimented many people on building them. I do ride elsewhere, frequently.

    Now you know 3 things about me that you didnt know before your ignorant attack.

  8. #8
    OFT
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    [QUOTE=SweatyYeti]I think all that Mountain Dew has inflated your ego[/QUOTE

    I dont drink MD.

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    OFT
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    I guess my post came across wrong since 3 of the 4 replys were personal attacks. drlg, thanks for a good post. Agree with you or not I can respect your opinion. I appreciate all the new trails and some of the re-routes for sure but you must admit the technical aspect of most of the newer trails has been removed. I make no claim to being a technical guru but the re-do on Eagles and Gunny were both ridable prior to their "fix".

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    I think one of the goals with the Troy-reroute was for not just erosion but also to make it more Bike-tour-Pack-able since it is part of the Koko to Moab route - at a BLM request BTW. And I would expect to see more techy trails in the future such as More Fun, etc..

  11. #11
    OFT
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    I see what your saying. Time will tell with regard to the sustainability. Many of the new re-routes are on old BLM built trails. I think some of the new trails are doing ok but some, not so much. Troys leads to Lions which is not exactly a great touring trail. Some parts would be pretty sketch with a loaded bike or a BOB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OFT
    I guess my post came across wrong since 3 of the 4 replys were personal attacks. drlg, thanks for a good post. Agree with you or not I can respect your opinion. I appreciate all the new trails and some of the re-routes for sure but you must admit the technical aspect of most of the newer trails has been removed. I make no claim to being a technical guru but the re-do on Eagles and Gunny were both ridable prior to their "fix".
    I had a friend who loved the fast, downhill DT section on upper Gunny. I much prefer the ST bypass (personally like rocky terrain even though it it relatively flat). Always thought it was a bit of a downer to have all the Gunny ST interrupted by the DT section.

    The Gunny reroute further down the trail was an issue with an eroding hillside (ie the short hike-a-bike climb). I never rode up that climb, but I am sure people could ride it inspite of the ruts, loose rocks, and sanded out slope. I think the reroute flows very good.

    I didn't have a problem with the old Eagle's Tail, but again, I think the reroute flows much better. After riding up then down Eagle's Wing, I don't mind a tamer Eagle's Tail to finish off the ride.

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    I recently chatted with someone who was thinking of no longer supporting COPMOBA because even the new "beginner" trails were too hard and weren't friendly to the inexperienced. It's all in how you perceive it. Some of the new stuff that will be going in will be plenty challenging, but that particular section was built so a BOB trailer could travel on it and in such a way that water damage could be mitigated.

    And when you throw in:
    just like all the other ones.
    You make it sound like you believe all the other new trails are lame. Not every trail can suit every user, and I believe that is a good thing. Variety is good.

  14. #14
    OFT
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    I recently chatted with someone who was thinking of no longer supporting COPMOBA because even the new "beginner" trails were too hard and weren't friendly to the inexperienced. It's all in how you perceive it. Some of the new stuff that will be going in will be plenty challenging, but that particular section was built so a BOB trailer could travel on it and in such a way that water damage could be mitigated.

    And when you throw in:


    You make it sound like you believe all the other new trails are lame. Not every trail can suit every user, and I believe that is a good thing. Variety is good.
    I agree with you on all points, but I believe most of the new trails are "beginner" level. At least your friend can develop or build skills to ride them. The rest of us have to, well not build skills.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    Some of the new stuff that will be going in will be plenty challenging.
    New stuff at Koko?

    Haven't seen the reroute, but thanks for the hard work. Cheers
    NOAH SEARS
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    There will be an extension of Mack Ridge to the Lion's Loop Double Track that will be singletrack. There was only one break in the cliff band to go through, and it is a really neat feature.

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    I don't design them, but I dig in the dirt. It's not easy pleasing everybody. I figure there are ebbs and flows to everything. For a while there were lots of difficult trails (Free Lunch, Pucker Up, Pre-Nup) that were put in, then some easier, what next?

    As far as the person who complained to me; she was simply someone like you, venting her grievances. Yours were not directed specifically to me, as hers were, but at times I feel as though I work in an ombudsman's office. However, that won't stop me from continuing to help build and maintain trails.

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    Edit: I should say I felt as though I worked in an ombudsman's office, as I no longer work "Over there" where people could come in and complain where I worked. Now my commute is down the hall....

  19. #19
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    I don't design them, but I dig in the dirt. It's not easy pleasing everybody. I figure there are ebbs and flows to everything. For a while there were lots of difficult trails (Free Lunch, Pucker Up, Pre-Nup) that were put in, then some easier, what next?

    As far as the person who complained to me; she was simply someone like you, venting her grievances. Yours were not directed specifically to me, as hers were, but at times I feel as though I work in an ombudsman's office. However, that won't stop me from continuing to help build and maintain trails.
    Yeah, you can't please everyone so it's pointless to even try. You do the best you can with what you have. When working on re-routes my opinion is that it's best to try to replicate as best as possible the experience that the trail you're replacing provided. If you're building from scratch and want to build a trail that a wide variety of users can enjoy, then stay with that goal. If you want to do a technical trail like Moore Fun then stay with that motif, but no matter what you do, some people will be thrilled, some people will complain.

    I will say this though; many, many more people will enjoy a trail like Mary's or Steve's, or Lion's than enjoy a trail like Moore Fun. It's great that super tech trails are being built for those that want them, but if you look at it from the point of view of providing a trail for the large majority of riders, it makes sense to make more easy to intermediate trails (from a technical point of view) than double diamonds. Most people just aren't looking for four foot drops over a pile of rocks with a hard turn at the bottom followed by a series of more drops along a narrow ledge where if you fall there are high consequences style of trail.

    If you're a volunteer based organization and you only have so many resources, both financial and manpower you have to ask yourself how to allocate what you have. Sure, build some stuff for the folks who have mastered the really hard stuff, especially if those folks are willing to rally to the cause and contribute a lot of man hours, but that's not where I'd put most of my energy. One look at the amount of traffic on Mary's vs the amount of traffic on Moore Fun will tell you why that makes sense.

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    Hats off to anyone who takes the time and effort to build.

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    I received far more complaints about Moore Fun than Rustler's...

    I think I'm the oddball, I love both those trails. One is great warm up, fast and swoopy, the other is challenging and a delightful climb. Both leave a smile on my face.

    And yes, most people max out on Horsethief, some will adore Mack Ridge, but few will "get" Moore Fun.

  22. #22
    OFT
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    Absolutely not directed at you, I don't even know you. Free lunch and Pucker up are the only 2 trails among several built in the last couple of years that are technical. I can't think of any others. Those trails are not my thing but I can respect them. Just like the pump track, not my thing but live and let live. Every re-route that I can think of in the GJ area has removed any techy or flowy aspects of the trail. Given your self described role, I'm sure this is not news to you. It is an ongoing thing. It does not appear as though the BLM listens to the people that they "represent". I, like many on this forum have pedaled lots of trails in the US and more. I personally can't think of any place where the trails have speed checks every 20 or so feet yet every trail in the LL area is built like that by design. BLM has this great resource and they are putting a great amount of effort into it, which is appreciated, but they are missing the mark in mine and many peoples opinion.. . It's still a good place to ride but it could be great. That is source of the frustration.

  23. #23
    OFT
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Yeah, you can't please everyone so it's pointless to even try. You do the best you can with what you have. When working on re-routes my opinion is that it's best to try to replicate as best as possible the experience that the trail you're replacing provided. If you're building from scratch and want to build a trail that a wide variety of users can enjoy, then stay with that goal. If you want to do a technical trail like Moore Fun then stay with that motif, but no matter what you do, some people will be thrilled, some people will complain.

    I will say this though; many, many more people will enjoy a trail like Mary's or Steve's, or Lion's than enjoy a trail like Moore Fun. It's great that super tech trails are being built for those that want them, but if you look at it from the point of view of providing a trail for the large majority of riders, it makes sense to make more easy to intermediate trails (from a technical point of view) than double diamonds. Most people just aren't looking for four foot drops over a pile of rocks with a hard turn at the bottom followed by a series of more drops along a narrow ledge where if you fall there are high consequences style of trail.

    If you're a volunteer based organization and you only have so many resources, both financial and manpower you have to ask yourself how to allocate what you have. Sure, build some stuff for the folks who have mastered the really hard stuff, especially if those folks are willing to rally to the cause and contribute a lot of man hours, but that's not where I'd put most of my energy. One look at the amount of traffic on Mary's vs the amount of traffic on Moore Fun will tell you why that makes sense.
    Right On!

  24. #24
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    Absolutely not directed at you
    Did not take it that way. Believe me, frustration abounds when dealing with bureaucracy! And I know the BLM employees feel it, too.

    And I so wish I could replicate Mack Ridge into just about any trail I help with, but then, they would all be the same.

    The speed stoppers make sense in such a crowded area as the Lunch Loops, especially since there are no leash laws there (no, that is not me asking for leashes). But, yes, I do wish I could let fly my bicycles! On the other hand, we have very few user conflicts, what a great thing that is, have you been to Boulder County? Sheesh!

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    I know all this was done for good reasons, but I sure do like unsustainable descents.
    Last edited by singletrack; 04-06-2011 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OFT
    Absolutely not directed at you, I don't even know you. Free lunch and Pucker up are the only 2 trails among several built in the last couple of years that are technical. I can't think of any others. Those trails are not my thing but I can respect them. Just like the pump track, not my thing but live and let live. Every re-route that I can think of in the GJ area has removed any techy or flowy aspects of the trail. Given your self described role, I'm sure this is not news to you. It is an ongoing thing. It does not appear as though the BLM listens to the people that they "represent". I, like many on this forum have pedaled lots of trails in the US and more. I personally can't think of any place where the trails have speed checks every 20 or so feet yet every trail in the LL area is built like that by design. BLM has this great resource and they are putting a great amount of effort into it, which is appreciated, but they are missing the mark in mine and many peoples opinion.. . It's still a good place to ride but it could be great. That is source of the frustration.
    Sounds like a perfect opportunity for you to volunteer some time and get involved with the future re-routes and new trails

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    I'm know all this was done for good reasons, but I sure do like unsustainable descents.
    YES YES YES

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobi
    Sounds like a perfect opportunity for you to volunteer some time and get involved with the future re-routes and new trails

    To frustrating.

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    Me too! Oooops! Did I post that out loud?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OFT
    To frustrating.
    I will agree that volunteer workdays can be an exercise in frustration (especially when it's your job....) but they can also be great fun an a fantastic opportunity to learn a bit more about trail design and construction. You also seem to be imbued with a sense of 'ownership' of the trails you work on. For the most part, I love to ride trails I've had a hand in designing and building.

    The free beer afterwards isn't so bad either.

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    You know what I find frustrating? In a few months the Acronyms are going to destroy one of the last steep descents in the valley, and I'm going to help them do it.

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    Joel, why do you hate fun trails?

    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    You know what I find frustrating? In a few months the Acronyms are going to destroy one of the last steep descents in the valley, and I'm going to help them do it.

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    And sometimes someone will bring freshly baked cookies...

  34. #34
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    You all need to remember just how good you have it there - just try building any new trail in the Roaring Fork Valley The protocol here is to obliterate existing trails not expand or refine them. From an outsider's perspective the complaints seem like picking nits over what is truly an extraordinary set of trails that seem to keep getting better. Keep up the good work.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

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    [QUOTE=zrm] .... Sure, build some stuff for the folks who have mastered the really hard stuff, especially if those folks are willing to rally to the cause and contribute a lot of man hours... [QUOTE]

    This is a key point, that many folks overlook. If you want your preferences reflected on the ground, you have to get involved with where (who) the work is taking place. And even then, you will work in a compromise situation all of the time.

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  36. #36
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    Wait. There are people that DON'T like Moore Fun? WTF is wrong with them?

  37. #37
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Wait. There are people that DON'T like Moore Fun? WTF is wrong with them?

    You mean Moore walking?

  38. #38
    OFT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scary Mc
    I will agree that volunteer workdays can be an exercise in frustration (especially when it's your job....) but they can also be great fun an a fantastic opportunity to learn a bit more about trail design and construction. You also seem to be imbued with a sense of 'ownership' of the trails you work on. For the most part, I love to ride trails I've had a hand in designing and building.

    The free beer afterwards isn't so bad either.
    I like free beer and cookies, maybe if that came before the trail building the frustrations would be more tolerable. For me it's hard to work your A$$ off on something that you disagree with and though some say you have a voice at these "builds". I have found just the opposite. I may not be an "expert" at trail building but I know to many speed checks and flat boring off camber turns when I see em. I know these, among other things, have been debated many times without consideration. I appreciate the people that that can handle that kind of stuff but 5 or so trail builds/repairs/re-routes took me out.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    You mean Moore walking?
    You're doing it wrong, Old Man.

  40. #40
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    You're doing it wrong, Old Man.
    Naw, I just know quite well what it's like to be bloody and bruised and swollen after a ride. There was a time in my MTB life when all that was a badge of honor but I don't need it no more. I've sacrificed my share of skin to the gods, I'm more than happy to let the new generation do their part in keeping the god of black n blue raspberries happy.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Naw, I just know quite well what it's like to be bloody and bruised and swollen after a ride. There was a time in my MTB life when all that was a badge of honor but I don't need it no more. I've sacrificed my share of skin to the gods, I'm more than happy to let the new generation do their part in keeping the god of black n blue raspberries happy.
    I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong... which way did you ride it? West -> east?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA
    I think one of the goals with the Troy-reroute was for not just erosion but also to make it more Bike-tour-Pack-able since it is part of the Koko to Moab route - at a BLM request BTW. And I would expect to see more techy trails in the future such as More Fun, etc..
    I find it fascinating that when Troy's was originally laid out it was 'designed to be sustainable'. I remember having an in-depth conversation at that workday with a guy named Troy from the BLM (and I think the trail's namesake, not the ego-flake down the road that claims it as his trail) about the layout, as at the time I was doing lots of trail building and design in other places. I didn't agree with the alignment, but I was new to the area so it didn't seem like my place to make waves about it. I figured they knew something I didn't.

    Then it eroded like crazy.

    And now we're being fed the same old line of 'we're making it sustainable' when in reality what's happening is any and all fun is being systematically removed from the area. If it's still a fun piece of trail, generally speaking it seems to have been an oversight or an accident.

    And that's the way I see it.

    I also find the idea that the BLM is trying to make the route more bikepackable HILARIOUS. ~10 years ago when the interest for bikepacking it really started to take off (and underground races on that theme started to pop up), the local BLM couldn't act quickly enough to squash that movement into the dirt. Now they claim that they're trying to encourage it?

    Just more BS from them, trying to cover up some other agenda.

    MC

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    You all need to remember just how good you have it there - just try building any new trail in the Roaring Fork Valley The protocol here is to obliterate existing trails not expand or refine them. From an outsider's perspective the complaints seem like picking nits over what is truly an extraordinary set of trails that seem to keep getting better. Keep up the good work.
    Good? OK, fine, we can agree there.

    Does that mean we should just 'be happy' as changes we don't like and didn't ask for keep getting crammed down our throats?

    Didn't think so.

    This area is on the radar of riders around the country and around the world. From my perspective it feels like the trail reroutes and alignment changes that are happening are geared more towards the tourists (and, more importantly, their $$) than to the local community. In other words, keep dumbing down the trails so that more and more beginners and intermediates can flock to the area, have a sanitized trail experience, not get hurt, spend $52.47 on t-shirts and bumper stickers at the local rubber tomahawk stand, then leave satisfied that they've 'done Fruita'.

    You don't live here so I can understand that you wouldn't see that perspective. Those of us that do see it feel powerless to do anything against it. We're told to get involved, make ourselves heard, etc... So lots of us did just that--there were a few well-attended meetings held late last fall and into the winter where it was advertised that they (BLM, COPMOBA) wanted the opinions and input of local riders for upcoming trail projects. It became obvious minutes into the first meeting that their agenda had been set weeks if not months before, and nothing that was said or heard at that meeting had even the value of an indian head cent. Just window dressing--tell us our opinions are valuable, nod and agree, then do what they were planning to do all along.

    Sheesh.

    MC

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    You know what I find frustrating? In a few months the Acronyms are going to destroy one of the last steep descents in the valley, and I'm going to help them do it.
    Which?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I find it fascinating that when Troy's was originally laid out it was 'designed to be sustainable'. I remember having an in-depth conversation at that workday with a guy named Troy from the BLM (and I think the trail's namesake, not the ego-flake down the road that claims it as his trail) about the layout, as at the time I was doing lots of trail building and design in other places. I didn't agree with the alignment, but I was new to the area so it didn't seem like my place to make waves about it. I figured they knew something I didn't.

    Then it eroded like crazy.

    And now we're being fed the same old line of 'we're making it sustainable' when in reality what's happening is any and all fun is being systematically removed from the area. If it's still a fun piece of trail, generally speaking it seems to have been an oversight or an accident.

    And that's the way I see it.


    I also find the idea that the BLM is trying to make the route more bikepackable HILARIOUS. ~10 years ago when the interest for bikepacking it really started to take off (and underground races on that theme started to pop up), the local BLM couldn't act quickly enough to squash that movement into the dirt. Now they claim that they're trying to encourage it?

    Just more BS from them, trying to cover up some other agenda.

    MC
    YES,YES YES and absofriginlutly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Good? OK, fine, we can agree there.

    Does that mean we should just 'be happy' as changes we don't like and didn't ask for keep getting crammed down our throats?

    Didn't think so.

    This area is on the radar of riders around the country and around the world. From my perspective it feels like the trail reroutes and alignment changes that are happening are geared more towards the tourists (and, more importantly, their $$) than to the local community. In other words, keep dumbing down the trails so that more and more beginners and intermediates can flock to the area, have a sanitized trail experience, not get hurt, spend $52.47 on t-shirts and bumper stickers at the local rubber tomahawk stand, then leave satisfied that they've 'done Fruita'.

    You don't live here so I can understand that you wouldn't see that perspective. Those of us that do see it feel powerless to do anything against it. We're told to get involved, make ourselves heard, etc... So lots of us did just that--there were a few well-attended meetings held late last fall and into the winter where it was advertised that they (BLM, COPMOBA) wanted the opinions and input of local riders for upcoming trail projects. It became obvious minutes into the first meeting that their agenda had been set weeks if not months before, and nothing that was said or heard at that meeting had even the value of an indian head cent. Just window dressing--tell us our opinions are valuable, nod and agree, then do what they were planning to do all along.

    Sheesh.

    MC
    Very True

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    You know what I find frustrating? In a few months the Acronyms are going to destroy one of the last steep descents in the valley, and I'm going to help them do it.
    I rode that descent today and it made my ears pop! The 25 mph tail wind at the top was fun too.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Which?
    Petroglyph Trail. We are most certainly doing it to increase tourism in Palisade.
    Last edited by singletrack; 04-08-2011 at 08:16 AM.

  49. #49
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    So lots of us did just that--there were a few well-attended meetings held late last fall and into the winter where it was advertised that they (BLM, COPMOBA) wanted the opinions and input of local riders for upcoming trail projects.
    These meetings were specifically focused on the Bookcliffs, not the Kokopelli. They are still in discussion and approval of routes is still in the works. Bureaucracy is frustrating, yes. Yes, there is a push from the City of Fruita to get the trails, and yes, it's definitely a commerce driven push.

    Eight years ago there was a push to get some more singletrack in the Kokopelli. That is starting now (I suppose you could argue it started with Wrangler's and the Moore Fun re-route).... Eight years....

    By the way, the Moore Fun re-route was specifically designed so that riders would now immediately what sort of skill level was needed to enjoy the trail.

  50. #50
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    Braids

    I feel that many of the recent trail re-routes have been unnecessary. Many of those areas had been there for 10-15 years or more, and with a bit of repair could have gone another many years without additional maintenance or having to change the trail dynamics and tear up a bunch of additional ground. Saving both time and resources.
    As far as the new trails go, with our excellent variety of terrain, it would go a long way to including multiple interests if in the trail planning and building process alternate lines with varying difficulty levels were included. We see this happening spontaneously every where. Would it be that much more difficult a process to do this in the first place? Thus saving everyone the constant battle over "unapproved" braided areas.
    I rode part of Troy last week and there hadn't been a re-route yet, so I cannot comment on the reality of it, but can only imagine what happened out there when reflecting on other recent route changes. I'll make some more "Wheelchair Accessible" signs today. Meh!
    Do something that scares you, every day of your life.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Good? OK, fine, we can agree there.

    Does that mean we should just 'be happy' as changes we don't like and didn't ask for keep getting crammed down our throats?

    Didn't think so.

    This area is on the radar of riders around the country and around the world. From my perspective it feels like the trail reroutes and alignment changes that are happening are geared more towards the tourists (and, more importantly, their $$) than to the local community. In other words, keep dumbing down the trails so that more and more beginners and intermediates can flock to the area, have a sanitized trail experience, not get hurt, spend $52.47 on t-shirts and bumper stickers at the local rubber tomahawk stand, then leave satisfied that they've 'done Fruita'.

    You don't live here so I can understand that you wouldn't see that perspective. Those of us that do see it feel powerless to do anything against it. We're told to get involved, make ourselves heard, etc... So lots of us did just that--there were a few well-attended meetings held late last fall and into the winter where it was advertised that they (BLM, COPMOBA) wanted the opinions and input of local riders for upcoming trail projects. It became obvious minutes into the first meeting that their agenda had been set weeks if not months before, and nothing that was said or heard at that meeting had even the value of an indian head cent. Just window dressing--tell us our opinions are valuable, nod and agree, then do what they were planning to do all along.

    Sheesh.

    MC
    I completely understand the perspective - having lived in ski resort land for 14 years I know the frustration of seeing things changed (usually for the worse) for the benefit of tourists at the expense of locals - it's a devils bargain at best. However, I also knew a lot of locals who couldn't see the forest for the trees and let that bargain sour the whole reason for living in the resort in the first place. My comment was simply that everyone needs to keep sight of the fact that Loma/Mack/GJ has a remarkable trail system that's well worth fighting for - not to imply that you have take trail sanitization lying down. I think the good things that are going on there far outweigh the bad.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    I think the good things that are going on there far outweigh the bad.
    Absolutely imperative to keep that in sight.

    I also know from experience that the BLM is incapable of building a challenging descent. Free Lunch is the flattest trail at the Lunch Loop, WTF.

    This is total hyperbole, but when I hear Rangers say "stewardship" it sounds like something the Commies said to peasant farmers, just before they took all the grain.

    Also, ScaryMC = Hitler

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    These meetings were specifically focused on the Bookcliffs, not the Kokopelli. They are still in discussion and approval of routes is still in the works. Bureaucracy is frustrating, yes. Yes, there is a push from the City of Fruita to get the trails, and yes, it's definitely a commerce driven push.
    Yep--the meetings were focused on the Bookcliffs. But I think it's a very, very big stretch to say that they're still in discussion. Or just an eternal optimist's take on the matter. I have friends within the BLM, as well as friends in the City of Fruita, as well as friends that have been involved with this on-the-ground. All agree, separately, that it has been a wink and a nod process from the get-go. If you're one of the winkers or nodders, that could be a good thing. Perhaps I just resent being left out of that club.

    I suspect that same resentment is being felt by a lot of other local riders right now, especially as 'festival season' approaches and we again get crowded out of our own backyards.

    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    By the way, the Moore Fun re-route was specifically designed so that riders would now immediately what sort of skill level was needed to enjoy the trail.
    And what's funny (ironic?) about *that* fact is that one of the original routes laid out and flagged to access Moore Fun way-back-when (before it was built) used this 'new' alignment. One of the Bench-Cutting-Brigade (he knows who he is) shitcanned the idea for no good reason back then, then better than a decade later that idea is (Poof! Voila!) essentially the 'new' section of trail.

    MC

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    I completely understand the perspective - having lived in ski resort land for 14 years I know the frustration of seeing things changed (usually for the worse) for the benefit of tourists at the expense of locals - it's a devils bargain at best. However, I also knew a lot of locals who couldn't see the forest for the trees and let that bargain sour the whole reason for living in the resort in the first place. My comment was simply that everyone needs to keep sight of the fact that Loma/Mack/GJ has a remarkable trail system that's well worth fighting for - not to imply that you have take trail sanitization lying down. I think the good things that are going on there far outweigh the bad.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    Agreed that perspective is needed for all involved. But it seems to be those that are affecting the unwanted/unneeded/not-well-thought-out/hail-the-tourist-money/screw-the-locals changes that are most in need.

    MC

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    I also know from experience that the BLM is incapable of building a challenging descent. Free Lunch is the flattest trail at the Lunch Loop, WTF.
    BS. They've built lots of challenging descents.

    For horses. And wheelchairs.



    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    a guy named Troy from the BLM (and I think the trail's namesake, not the ego-flake down the road that claims it as his trail)
    Your message would be much more sustainable without petty jabs, Mike. You have a lot of good points and muddying it up with crap like that seems well below your intelligence level.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken
    Your message would be much more sustainable without petty jabs, Mike. You have a lot of good points and muddying it up with crap like that seems well below your intelligence level.
    You seem to be operating under the delusion that anything that is said here matters. It surely does not. They aren't listening at the meetings, they aren't listening at the trail work days, and they sure don't give a rat's fat ass what's being said in cyberspace.

    I just use this space to work on my creative writing skills...

    MC

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    You seem to be operating under the delusion that anything that is said here matters. It surely does not. They aren't listening at the meetings, they aren't listening at the trail work days, and they sure don't give a rat's fat ass what's being said in cyberspace.

    I just use this space to work on my creative writing skills...

    MC
    It just seems that you're too young to be a bitter old internet fart, though you appear to have been learing from the best.

    As far as this website mattering, I agree because it does not. Even so, you never know who may be wading through this sea of bullcrap and how it may effect their decision making processes.

  59. #59
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    New black diamond trail at Buffalo Creek

    Interesting thread, this.
    I disagree with those who say these posts don't matter. This is a community forum that generates thousands of "hits," so you know people are taking the time to read and think about what is said here.
    True, a lot of trail maintenance seems to "sanitize" some gnarly sections. But that's often because the original trail became gnarly on account of erosion. I can think of a number of trails around Colorado that were a lot easier to ride a dozen years ago, before they fell apart because of erosion or overuse. Some people may prefer potholes to smooth pavement, but the highway department is there to do the repaving.
    Finally, here's a plug for the new "Black Jack" black diamond trail opening in a few weeks in the Buffalo Creek Recreation Area west of Denver. This will be a killer addition to the miles of wonderful, swoopy trails already part of that trail system. Kudos to the BLM and CoMBA (among others) for making it happen!

  60. #60
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    Had to go ride the now infamous reroute this morning. I was thinking that the entire downhill section was bypassed, but the lower half is still intact. The upper section needed to be taken out of service. Depending on your speed and with the ruts, it could be considered dangerous.

    It seems like there was alot of great space to make the reroute something special. I guess there was a reason to make the reroute easy.

  61. #61
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    I sure hope the rock jump at the beginning where I busted my seat post is still a there. Love that ramp. Haven't ridden it this year. Sounds like it probably needs to be filed down for the masses to meet safety requirements. I love new trails but speed checks are so unnecessary on virtually one way trails like Troy built. Please stop the sanitation. Rocks rock. They overbuild bikes to handle them now too....
    gjmountainbiking.com

  62. #62
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    So I rode Troys reroute today and it starts a long way south from original TH. Kinda helpful not to ride up too far on the jeep road from lions trail. One "feature" on the trail is a big rock roller. Flow is non existent. Lower original is thankfully still intact. I will sure miss that rock ramp jump braid on top. I guess the plan is to link MacH ridge to lions and troys via single track. There is plenty of place to develop speedy techy trail and I sure hope the flow mojo returns to the trail builders of new. The re-routers have lost touch. The manual needs to be revised .

  63. #63
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    I am sure it is the same people that did the re-route at the other end of Troy's several years ago, and the flow was definitely destroyed there.

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