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Thread: Help us retire

  1. #1
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    Help us retire

    It is finally getting close enough for my wife and I to start deciding where we will retire in 2-4 years. The Front Range is out. We're bailing at the first possible moment. Moab was our dream for decades, but now it is now a shitshow 11 1/2 months out of the year. Moab was perfect 20 years ago, but holy hell, no way now.

    $500K max, at least an acre, preferably more, and the lot must accommodate or already have a 20x40 foot or larger workshop. No HOAs, sorry, I'm not spending my retirement under the microscope of some power-drunk old biddy telling me what color I can paint my house. Within 20 minutes or so of a small town (groceries). Of course, the price is moving target. 2-4 years from now, maybe the market finally drops, or maybe we end up in a trailer on the eastern plains, but we want to start looking now.

    We're not interested in the super snowy areas, since we only ski 3-5 times a year now. Access to skiing is nice, but not a major item.

    What is a major item is access to MTB and hiking trails, preferably 9-10 months out of the year.

    Some places we have identified as potential landing spots are Mancos/Dolores, Rifle/Parachute/DeBeque, Palisade, Fruita, Paonia/Hotchkiss/Crawford, Del Norte, Salida/Buena Vista, Norwood/Naturita, Delta.

    We really like the area around Mancos and Dolores, but it *is* a real haul back to Boulder where our kids live, especially in Winter. Obviously the trail access over there is spectacular. Norwood/Naturita is intriguing but has the same distance problem. They are building trails there though, and we could actually afford a nice place. Montrose *was* pretty cool, but it is becoming Aurora West, basically a long distance suburb of the Front Range. Ridgway is probably out of our price range for the type of property we want. Salida could work, I see a grand total of four possibilities on realtor.com right now, but I'm guessing in 3-4 years will be priced out of there for what we want. Fruita looks to be the same. Palisade as well.

    We really like the Paonia vibe. Are there winter trail options around Delta or Paonia/Hotchkiss? I really don't know of any without driving over to Montrose or even GJ.

    Del Norte seems pretty cool to us, but it is so freaking cold in the winter down there, I'm not sure we want to deal with that.

    Rifle/Parachute/DeBeque have a lot of great qualities, but anywhere you buy in that area will always have the oil and gas hammer hanging over your head. One day you are in heaven, the next you have a drilling rig 500 feet off of your patio. I've heard many of the wells in that area are also bad water and/or inadequate. Help me understand the real impacts of living in that valley.

    Tell me about where you live!

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    What about New Castle? Nice proximity to the West Slope but also Aspen/Eagle. I guess I don't know if the property is already out of your price range, however.

    If it were me, I would think the outskirts of either Montrose or Delta checks the most boxes compared to anywhere else. As you already pointed out you certainly won't be able to check them all in any one place. The access and diversity of trails/elevations is hard to beat. Close enough to day trip Telluride, CB/Gunny, GJ/Fruita, Paonia, etc. Also close enough to Salida, Durango, Cortez to justify single night (2-day) trips. Whichever of these areas you like riding the most would dictate which direction outside of Montrose you go.

    We have lived in Dolores (I loved it, my wife did not because she worked in the Cortez school district...). Currently living in Fruita, and love that as well. I think you probably could find the kind of property you are looking for for <$500k around here. My biggest gripe with living here is the distance for high quality high elevation riding. The Grand Mesa and Uncompahgre leave a lot to be desired compared to real mountains (CB, Telluride, Aspen, etc). But the trail access here is very good, and will be better once the PP is done!

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    I would think you could figure something out near Gunnison in that price range, although it's cold AF in the winter there. CB and most any other ski town is likely out for the acreage and price you're looking for.

    Otherwise, I think you may just need to keep your options open. Paonia, GJ, Fruita, outskirts of Montrose or Delta. You may be able to find something outside of Durango or Pagosa as well, but that's a good drive from Boulder. Del Norte and anywhere else in the SLV is going to be cold as heck in the winter.

    If you want somewhere basically off the grid, check out the Cuchara / La Veta area. We've had a cabin there since the 60's. There's a bit of biking, tons of hiking, but the valley is virtually unknown. With the massive 120,000 acre fire that backed up to the valley last year, it wouldn't surprise me to see some really good deals on property in the next few years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    What about New Castle? Nice proximity to the West Slope but also Aspen/Eagle. I guess I don't know if the property is already out of your price range, however.

    If it were me, I would think the outskirts of either Montrose or Delta checks the most boxes compared to anywhere else. As you already pointed out you certainly won't be able to check them all in any one place. The access and diversity of trails/elevations is hard to beat. Close enough to day trip Telluride, CB/Gunny, GJ/Fruita, Paonia, etc. Also close enough to Salida, Durango, Cortez to justify single night (2-day) trips. Whichever of these areas you like riding the most would dictate which direction outside of Montrose you go.

    We have lived in Dolores (I loved it, my wife did not because she worked in the Cortez school district...). Currently living in Fruita, and love that as well. I think you probably could find the kind of property you are looking for for <$500k around here. My biggest gripe with living here is the distance for high quality high elevation riding. The Grand Mesa and Uncompahgre leave a lot to be desired compared to real mountains (CB, Telluride, Aspen, etc). But the trail access here is very good, and will be better once the PP is done!

    We are already priced out of New Castle. I went to realtor.com and typed in "New Castle" and got all excited because a bunch of reasonably priced houses appeared. It gave me New Castle, Delaware. I always thought of the east coast as having much more expensive real estate than the mountain west, but that sure is not the case any more! There was not a single property in New Castle that we could afford that had any lot at all. We have lived on acreage since 1985, so moving to a town/subdivision situation is not appealing.

    North of Silt is a possibility.

    Did you live in the town of Dolores or somewhere outside? We like the area between Dolores and Mancos, but the prices are skyrocketing. It feels like a race to the finish line to get to a good place before we are priced out. That's what we get for being at the tail end of the Baby Boom, I guess.

    Paonia/Hotchkiss/Crawford are still affordable, but the riding right in those valleys seems to be non-existent. I'm guessing it would be a drive 20-45 minutes to ride situation, every month of the year. That would kind of suck. I can hit miles and miles of trails from my front door now, it seems like a step backward to go somewhere that every single ride means throwing the bikes on the car. If anyone lives in the Paonia area, please correct me if I just don't know where the trails are at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    I would think you could figure something out near Gunnison in that price range, although it's cold AF in the winter there. CB and most any other ski town is likely out for the acreage and price you're looking for.

    Otherwise, I think you may just need to keep your options open. Paonia, GJ, Fruita, outskirts of Montrose or Delta. You may be able to find something outside of Durango or Pagosa as well, but that's a good drive from Boulder. Del Norte and anywhere else in the SLV is going to be cold as heck in the winter.

    If you want somewhere basically off the grid, check out the Cuchara / La Veta area. We've had a cabin there since the 60's. There's a bit of biking, tons of hiking, but the valley is virtually unknown. With the massive 120,000 acre fire that backed up to the valley last year, it wouldn't surprise me to see some really good deals on property in the next few years.
    Gunnison is just too damn cold. We want a garden, and I'm pretty sure with Gunnison's growing season you would be looking at a greenhouse full of potatoes as the only option.

    I've ridden through La Veta and Stonewall, so I know a little of the area. I'll have to do some investigating. I have heard that water wells can be pretty difficult in that area, and of course, the fire danger is real. I'm extremely cognizant of the downsides of living in the fire red zone because we live there now. Our homeowners insurance is $400........ per MONTH, not per year. I'm trying to stay out of those areas because I honestly believe if Colorado gets a Paradise-like fire, all of the insurance companies are going to pull out completely, and everyone will be screwed.

    https://www.pewtrusts.org/research-a...harder-to-find




    Last edited by honkinunit; 01-06-2019 at 11:03 AM.

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    If retiring...Fruita.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter View Post
    If retiring...Fruita.
    I just went into realtor.com, for Fruita put in a max of $500K and a lot size minimum of 1 acre.

    There was exactly one hit, and it is already under contract.

    It is getting crazy. We could find what we want in dozens of non-coastal towns in CALIFORNIA. Now Fruita is out of reach?

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    I would be willing to bet that a lot of properties around here (Grand Valley) that are listed >$500K have been listed for a long time - and consequently would jump at a cash offer. I wouldn't be surprised if that applies almost everywhere else in the state as well. Out of curiousity - did you include GJ and Loma in your search? Or try Zillow?

    As for Dolores we lived in town. Very neat little town. The properties on the road over to Mancos are amazing as well. You are right about the long haul to get anywhere though - but that can be kind of nice as it will likely never get the crowds those trails would get if they were close to i70!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    I would be willing to bet that a lot of properties around here (Grand Valley) that are listed >$500K have been listed for a long time - and consequently would jump at a cash offer. I wouldn't be surprised if that applies almost everywhere else in the state as well. Out of curiousity - did you include GJ and Loma in your search? Or try Zillow?

    As for Dolores we lived in town. Very neat little town. The properties on the road over to Mancos are amazing as well. You are right about the long haul to get anywhere though - but that can be kind of nice as it will likely never get the crowds those trails would get if they were close to i70!
    One thing that concerns me about that area is crime. Did you know of any issues around Dolores? The stats for Montezuma County look pretty bad.

    https://the-journal.com/articles/48382
    Crime stats 101: What you need to know about crime in Montezuma County

    The other concern is how far right the county government seems to be, but I guess I can deal with that.

  10. #10
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    Accroding to my data, there is a 35 acre property with a 3 bedroom and 3 bath house a little ways south-west of Grand Junction listed for $425k and a 13 acre parcel just east of Montrose with a 2 bed and 1 bath cabin listed for $198k. Going to a different area, there is a 3 bed and 3 bath log home on 5+ acres near South Fork for $399k.

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    I'm guessing the 35 acres SW of GJ is up in Glade Park. It is a pretty cool area, but depending on where you are exactly it is probably more than 20 minutes to town.

    Not retiring to a two bed one bath cabin.

    South Fork is cold and snowy as hell.

    We've been all over the online realty sites. Paonia/Hotchkiss look really good, except for the apparent lack of trails. Is there really nowhere to ride around there without driving 40 minutes? Anyone?

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    We only lived in Dolores one year, but never heard much about crime (other than in Towaoc) or felt unsafe.

    The local government in Mesa County is also pretty far to the right - and it is another thing I don't love about living here. It is an unfortunate part of living in a rural area, and pretty much every place on your list is going to be the same in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    One thing that concerns me about that area is crime. Did you know of any issues around Dolores? The stats for Montezuma County look pretty bad.

    https://the-journal.com/articles/48382
    Crime stats 101: What you need to know about crime in Montezuma County

    The other concern is how far right the county government seems to be, but I guess I can deal with that.
    It's comical that one of your concerns is about criminal activity and then you complain about "how far right the county government seems to be". As a retired police officer, I can tell you the left and all their pie in the sky policies related to criminals in general is responsible fro higher crime rates and so many dirtbags on the street...instead of a cell or 6 feet under where they belong. Even the article you link to complains of theft and drug crimes. What do you expect when your state is a free for all for stoners. Drug fiends in general will steal anything that isn't nailed down to finance their habits. The Left made that bed, and continues to do so in CA in spite of themselves, so now it's time to sleep in it!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    It's comical that one of your concerns is about criminal activity and then you complain about "how far right the county government seems to be". As a retired police officer, I can tell you the left and all their pie in the sky policies related to criminals in general is responsible fro higher crime rates and so many dirtbags on the street...instead of a cell or 6 feet under where they belong. Even the article you link to complains of theft and drug crimes. What do you expect when your state is a free for all for stoners. Drug fiends in general will steal anything that isn't nailed down to finance their habits. The Left made that bed, and continues to do so in CA in spite of themselves, so now it's time to sleep in it!!!
    Drug crimes are everywhere. The most right-wing, anti-pot states in the union are Utah, Nebraska and Kansas, and they all have epic meth and opioid problems. I spend a lot of time in Moab, and they have a serious meth problem there. The only two murders there in recent memory were over meth.

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-epidemic.html
    https://www.kansas.com/news/local/cr...220623350.html
    https://www.nptelegraph.com/news/loc...ea45537c9.html
    https://kfab.iheart.com/content/2018...s-in-nebraska/

    I've lived in CO for over 30 years. Legalizing pot has less to do with increasing crime here than just the sheer volume of people moving here. I'd rather have kids smoking pot than doing meth, which is actually cheaper now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    We've been all over the online realty sites. Paonia/Hotchkiss look really good, except for the apparent lack of trails. Is there really nowhere to ride around there without driving 40 minutes? Anyone?
    https://www.trailforks.com/region/paonia/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    We only lived in Dolores one year, but never heard much about crime (other than in Towaoc) or felt unsafe.

    The local government in Mesa County is also pretty far to the right - and it is another thing I don't love about living here. It is an unfortunate part of living in a rural area, and pretty much every place on your list is going to be the same in that regard.
    What? No welfare checks? No free universal healthcare in Mesa County? How dare they!

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    One thing to be aware of... in a lot of mountain towns, the trails have wildlife closures from December into the spring. I live in Eagle, and 98% of the trails are shut down from 12/15 until 4/15. I know it's the same all the way west through New Castle, if not further towards Debeque. I think the only places you're going to find that are truly rideable in Colorado 10-11 months a year are the Front Range (including Pueblo), the Grand Valley, and possibly the Mancos/Dolores area.

    Are you set on one location for retirement? Because the alternate answer to your question is to buy something in Colorado to ride from April-November, then head south for the winter and ride to your heart's content in a place like St. George or Tuscon. Depending on where you buy, you could easily rent out either/both places to essentially only pay one mortgage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    One thing to be aware of... in a lot of mountain towns, the trails have wildlife closures from December into the spring. I live in Eagle, and 98% of the trails are shut down from 12/15 until 4/15. I know it's the same all the way west through New Castle, if not further towards Debeque. I think the only places you're going to find that are truly rideable in Colorado 10-11 months a year are the Front Range (including Pueblo), the Grand Valley, and possibly the Mancos/Dolores area.
    Also true in the Durango area, though only for a handful of trails, apparently not as high a percentage as Eagle.
    OTOH, good winter weather is an even bigger deterrent. Fat bikes are popular here, as are winter trips to Moab, Sedona, Phoenix and Tucson and of course skiing.
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    Trinidad? It's a cool little town on the grow, and you'd be in on the ground floor as riding opportunities expand. It's even got cobbled streets so you can get all Belgian in the spring. Pueblo weather for the most part, so ridable year round.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2019/01/0...h-public-land/

    Not a lot of singletrack that I know of, but there is a ton of old mining roads in the area for gravelish adventures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Trinidad? It's a cool little town on the grow, and you'd be in on the ground floor as riding opportunities expand. It's even got cobbled streets so you can get all Belgian in the spring. Pueblo weather for the most part, so ridable year round.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2019/01/0...h-public-land/

    Not a lot of singletrack that I know of, but there is a ton of old mining roads in the area for gravelish adventures.
    We want to have a large garden, and water down there is tough. In fact, ditch rights combined with a low enough elevation to grow anything are a tough find just about everywhere in CO. Montrose area and the area around Cortez seem to be the only areas with decent outdoor access, water, acreage, and not colder than hell 5 months out of the year. Oh, and reasonably affordable. Fruita and Loveland fit the bill 20 years ago, but now they are too expensive.

    From New Castle to DeBeque looks good, until you realize just how overwhelmed with oil and gas drill those areas have become. Pick a random spot in that area and do a satellite view. Holy hell. The only areas not drilled to the max are the ones around Rulison because of the whack nuclear tests done in the 60's to try to "frack" using nuclear bombs. But hey, the state wants to open those areas to drilling as well! What could go wrong?

    Anyone who has never heard of that should look at these:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Rulison
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwAAqXsrZ58
    Drilling Near The Site Of An Underground Nuclear Blast Just Got A Little Easier | CPR

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I'm guessing the 35 acres SW of GJ is up in Glade Park. It is a pretty cool area, but depending on where you are exactly it is probably more than 20 minutes to town.

    Not retiring to a two bed one bath cabin.

    South Fork is cold and snowy as hell.

    We've been all over the online realty sites. Paonia/Hotchkiss look really good, except for the apparent lack of trails. Is there really nowhere to ride around there without driving 40 minutes? Anyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Gunnison is just too damn cold. We want a garden, and I'm pretty sure with Gunnison's growing season you would be looking at a greenhouse full of potatoes as the only option.

    .....


    [/URL]


    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    One thing that concerns me about that area is crime. Did you know of any issues around Dolores? The stats for Montezuma County look pretty bad.

    ....

    The other concern is how far right the county government seems to be, but I guess I can deal with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    We could find what we want in dozens of non-coastal towns in CALIFORNIA. Now Fruita is out of reach?
    so move to California. how about Arkansas? Bentonville area seems to meet all your requirements. There are 47 other continental states to choose from, perhaps Colorado just isn't it.

    why should we help you find a place to retire when you shoot down every suggestion and complain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snark7 View Post
    so move to California. how about Arkansas? Bentonville area seems to meet all your requirements. There are 47 other continental states to choose from, perhaps Colorado just isn't it.

    why should we help you find a place to retire when you shoot down every suggestion and complain?
    Because I know there are places IN COLORADO that will fit our needs.

    Why would I move to bum**** states like Arkansas or California?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Because I know there are places IN COLORADO that will fit our needs.

    Why would I move to bum**** states like Arkansas or California?
    Sorry, but right now it's not realistic to get a house on an acre within 20 minutes of a town you can mountain bike 10+ months a year in Colorado for under $500k. Unless you want to live in Pueblo, in which case I'm sure there are plenty of options.

    It's like the old saying.... "good, cheap, and fast: pick two." With R/E these days, you can have a little bit of what you want, but not all of it. Or, you can have all of it if you're willing to pay more.

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    Sounds like Chihuahua Mexico is the only place that will satisfy all of the demands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    Sorry, but right now it's not realistic to get a house on an acre within 20 minutes of a town you can mountain bike 10+ months a year in Colorado for under $500k. Unless you want to live in Pueblo, in which case I'm sure there are plenty of options.

    It's like the old saying.... "good, cheap, and fast: pick two." With R/E these days, you can have a little bit of what you want, but not all of it. Or, you can have all of it if you're willing to pay more.
    There are many places where you can get acreage and water within 20 minutes of a town, and have access to trails. Not everywhere is Denver/Boulder/Golden where a one bedroom hovel condo is $400K+

    These are all under $400k:

    Norwood: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-11095?view=qv

    Montrose: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-17194?view=qv

    Hotchkiss: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-62917?view=qv

    Mancos: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-45080?view=qv

    Bayfield: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-65113?view=qv

    Fruita: https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-28659?view=qv (Just missed on this one).

    Looking for hidden gems, and any local 411 on any of these areas or others. I've had a couple of very helpful PMs already.

    Schools and jobs are not factors. Crime, local attitudes, access to trails, hidden issues like ridiculous taxes, bad water, etc. are what we are looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ....

    Why would I move to bum**** states like Arkansas or California?
    good to see you have an open mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snark7 View Post
    good to see you have an open mind.
    We spent many years living in the south, and half of my wife's family lives around Dallas. Nope to anyplace with high heat and humidity, or more than 25 inches of rain per year. I'd rather ride in the desert at 105F than Arkansas at 85F. I'd rather deal with snow than 50 days of rain per year.

    Both of my kids have lived in CA, and I've spent probably 20 weeks of my life there on various trips over a 35 year stretch. More than enough to know that we want nothing to do with CA. It was paradise before 20 million people showed up. Now there are almost 40 million. There is a reason that out migration from CA exceeded in migration by over a million people over the past ten years.

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    I've been getting a little pressure from wealthier friends for the Mrs. and I to retire, but not a single one will contribute to our GoFundMe retirement account.
    Go figure!
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    Honk, Since you want a large garden the Grand Valley has the longest growing season in the state (in a place youíd want to live). Palisade has a two week frost free advantage over Fruita, thatís why the peaches are in this end of the valley.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    Sorry, but right now it's not realistic to get a house on an acre within 20 minutes of a town you can mountain bike 10+ months a year in Colorado for under $500k. Unless you want to live in Pueblo, in which case I'm sure there are plenty of options.

    It's like the old saying.... "good, cheap, and fast: pick two." With R/E these days, you can have a little bit of what you want, but not all of it. Or, you can have all of it if you're willing to pay more.
    I've you're willing to look further south, there are some affordable gems to be found in New Mexico.

    I currently live in ABQ (moved here from Denver) because work asked me to. While we don't care for the feel of ABQ and don't plan to be here long term, we love the access to outdoorsy stuff and how empty the trails usually are.

    Oh and you can easily ride year 'round and still snowshoe or ski in New Mexico. There's dry dirt 5 blocks from my house in ABQ and I can hike to snow covered trails from my driveway. But - I live in the Breaking Bad town...
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Yep, agreed... if the OP is willing to leave Colorado there are plenty of options in the surrounding states with access to really good MTB'ing. Albuquerque, St. George, Prescott, just to name a few.

  32. #32
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    My in laws live in Albuqrackie, just north of Tramway in a supposedly nice neighborhood. They had an armed home invasion by a Vietnamese gang and numerous theft problems. Last time we were there someone broke into our truck, even though we left nothing of value in it. The riding is nice but you could not pay me to live there.

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    Did I mention I don't plan to be in ABQ long term?

    However, Northern New Mexico seems nice - especially if you want acreage
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    ABQ is out, a good friend of mine is just counting the days until he can retire and get out of there.

    St. George and Prescott are too SoCal, and you wouldn't be growing anything outside of a greenhouse in those places anyway. Prescott has the severe Red Zone fire issue as well. There are going to be millions of very unhappy people in the mountain west in a few years when the commercial insurers abandon anyplace with high fire danger. It already happened in CA, and the state had to step in to bail out the homeowners. Colorado, Utah, and Arizona are a lot less likely to do that.

    We think we have narrowed things down to a 20 mi radius of Durango, Montrose, or Hotchkiss/Paonia. Unfortunately, Montrose sure looks like a Denver suburb these days. Holy smokes have they built a lot of chain stores and goofy golf course subdivisions there.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    ABQ is out, a good friend of mine is just counting the days until he can retire and get out of there.
    To be clear, I was not recommending ABQ. I was, however, recommending giving a look to parts of New Mexico.

    My wife and I have been planning on buying some mountain property, with the idea of building on it down the road. We're in our mid 30's and were originally were thinking Colorado, but have been surprised by the affordability of parts of Northern New Mexico.

    Tucson, AZ is an area we'll be checking out this spring. Never been there and want to ride, but it seems somewhat affordable. Can find high enough elevation that it's not PHX hot.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    To be clear, I was not recommending ABQ. I was, however, recommending giving a look to parts of New Mexico.

    My wife and I have been planning on buying some mountain property, with the idea of building on it down the road. We're in our mid 30's and were originally were thinking Colorado, but have been surprised by the affordability of parts of Northern New Mexico.

    Tucson, AZ is an area we'll be checking out this spring. Never been there and want to ride, but it seems somewhat affordable. Can find high enough elevation that it's not PHX hot.
    We looked a little into Northern NM, but were surprised to find that the crime rate is almost as bad as ABQ. Weird how a state line seems to make a difference. Taos has a really high crime rate, Durango is much lower, although still higher than I'd like to see.

  37. #37
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    Paonia and Crotchkiss would nice places to live, they have made steps towards more ďlegalĒ trail recently. Iíd love to live south of Montrose if the Wife would let me, hard to do when the house is paid for and your Wife is a Palisade Native.

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    Iím guessing Salida isnít being talked about because we all are looking at it. Great trails, banana belt weather, 3 hrs to Denver, and a cool hip town. The only thing I donít know about is the real estate prices vs value

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    https://www.trulia.com/property/5049...alida-CO-81201

    Right at the end of the Monarch crest! $110,000

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    Iím guessing Salida isnít being talked about because we all are looking at it. Great trails, banana belt weather, 3 hrs to Denver, and a cool hip town. The only thing I donít know about is the real estate prices vs value
    We air b-n-b'd a house in Nathrop last year, not far from this house. (which might tic some boxes with budget for updates)
    https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...57_rect/10_zm/

    We were all but ready to pack up and list our house in Fork Collins by the end of our stay, but seems we might be 10-15 years too early with young kids not even out of middle school yet. Met a guy who just cashed out of Laguna Nigel and was on 35 acres and a sweet house with a man shop out back.

    Seems like the growing season might be short, but good riding and Monarch Ski/Crest was no more than 30 minutes away. We rode gravel bikes to the Mt. Princeton hot springs without ever hitting a paved rode too.
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    Bentonville / buena vista AR

    Itís worth making a short trip to check it out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 2melow View Post
    We air b-n-b'd a house in Nathrop last year, not far from this house. (which might tic some boxes with budget for updates)
    https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...57_rect/10_zm/

    We were all but ready to pack up and list our house in Fork Collins by the end of our stay, but seems we might be 10-15 years too early with young kids not even out of middle school yet. Met a guy who just cashed out of Laguna Nigel and was on 35 acres and a sweet house with a man shop out back.

    Seems like the growing season might be short, but good riding and Monarch Ski/Crest was no more than 30 minutes away. We rode gravel bikes to the Mt. Princeton hot springs without ever hitting a paved rode too.
    Three problems with that one: you'd never grow anything up there, it has an HOA, and it is on a community water system.

    I know a few people who have screwed by the community water system concept. Usually it is a joint ownership you are buying into. It isn't like city water where they spread the costs among a big tax base, or big water system like Denver Water. If there is a big issue with wells/pumps/water treatment facility/pipe. etc., they lay an assessment on you. If the problem costs $150,000 to fix and there are 100 houses, you get hit with a $1500 special assessment. If it costs $1 million, for example, the water treatment system needs to be replaced, then you would be looking at $10,000 per house. Also, you will experience the incredible bickering among the owners at that point about who is doing the work, why someone else isn't doing the work, how the work is done, how much it costs, etc. There are some community water systems that only have 5 or 10 or 20 houses. That's when you can really get hammered with an assessment.

    Screw that, and screw HOAs, which create the same issues. I'd rather deal with my own well and septic, plow/maintain my own road, etc. That is the situation I have now, and I want to keep that after I move.

    BTW, if you buy a house with irrigation shares from a ditch company, it is the same scenario. You pay for your share of the water every year, and you are also liable for maintenance of the ditch and headgates.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    Bentonville / buena vista AR

    Itís worth making a short trip to check it out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Nope. We know what it is like to deal with heat and humidity. Yes, even NW Arkansas, where the heat and humidity are "lower". We also know all about chiggers, mosquitoes, ticks, biting flies, fleas, fire ants, termites, ice storms, tornadoes, torrential rain, and the rest of what you get in the south.

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    The town of Salida isnít Nathrop, and they have city water, and infrastructure. Many places for sale, but you focus on Nathrop and shoot down the whole lower Arkansas valley?


    Seems you can find faults with any suggestions made here, so I guess you should just stay with the devil you know rather than take a chance anywhere else. No place is perfect and if you nit pic, and focus on what you donít like youíll never find anywhere. All I see is you shooting down every prospect the forum gives you, so why did you even come here asking for help?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    The town of Salida isnít Nathrop, and they have city water, and infrastructure. Many places for sale, but you focus on Nathrop and shoot down the whole lower Arkansas valley?


    Seems you can find faults with any suggestions made here, so I guess you should just stay with the devil you know rather than take a chance anywhere else. No place is perfect and if you nit pic, and focus on what you donít like youíll never find anywhere. All I see is you shooting down every prospect the forum gives you, so why did you even come here asking for help?
    I came here because we are in the process of narrowing down where we will land.
    Anyone who doesn't truly understand what they want, and who goes blindly around looking at random places is wasting their time, and the time of the realtors, property owners, etc. If you do know exactly what you want, it is easy to eliminate what doesn't fit. This isn't a case of we would like to have some things but if we can't get them, we will settle for something else. This is going to be where we spend the last years of our lives, so why settle?

    Salida is a great place. It is *extremely* difficult to find acreage, without an HOA, with irrigation water of any kind. On top of that, the growing season is very short. On top of that, water wells are difficult and sometimes seasonal. Oh, and it has become very expensive compared to other small towns further west. If you happen to see a property in the valley on 1+ acres, no HOA, not surrounded by pines or pinon so that you can actually afford homeowner's insurance, suitable garden area, irrigation water (can't irrigate from most wells in CO by the way), preferably near Salida and not further north which is higher and colder, for under $500K, you let me know. I don't see any.

    Meanwhile, we have found that the US 50 corridor from Ridgway to Delta, Hotchkiss/Paonia, and the "Dolores Triangle" (draw a triangle with the corners being Cortez, Mancos, and Dolores), do have many properties with what we are looking for, and I have received a bunch of very helpful PM's filling me in on some important considerations about those areas.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Meanwhile, we have found that the US 50 corridor from Ridgway to Delta, Hotchkiss/Paonia, and the "Dolores Triangle" (draw a triangle with the corners being Cortez, Mancos, and Dolores), do have many properties with what we are looking for, and I have received a bunch of very helpful PM's filling me in on some important considerations about those areas.
    The problem is that only one of the above-mentioned areas come close to meeting your "major item of riding 9-10 months a year". (I honestly have no idea what the riding season looks like down around Dolores/Mancos) For Paonia and Ridgway/Delta, you'll be lucky if you hit 6-7 months a year, and to get that you'll have to drive quite a distance if you want any kind of variety in your daily ride. There's a reason those places are cheap.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    The problem is that only one of the above-mentioned areas come close to meeting your "major item of riding 9-10 months a year". (I honestly have no idea what the riding season looks like down around Dolores/Mancos) For Paonia and Ridgway/Delta, you'll be lucky if you hit 6-7 months a year, and to get that you'll have to drive quite a distance if you want any kind of variety in your daily ride. There's a reason those places are cheap.
    Montrose and Paonia are the same elevation as Golden. The riding season is very similar to Golden, and I consider Golden to be 9-10 months.

    Dolores/Cortez/Mancos are about the same. That area is actually higher in elevation than Montrose, Paonia, and Golden, but further south, and drier.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Montrose and Paonia are the same elevation as Golden. The riding season is very similar to Golden, and I consider Golden to be 9-10 months.

    Dolores/Cortez/Mancos are about the same. That area is actually higher in elevation than Montrose, Paonia, and Golden, but further south, and drier.
    Loveland out? Gardeners dream, and you can pedal to Bobcat Ridge, probably one of the best rides on the front range. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...23_rect/11_zm/


    How about northern Front Range? 36.41 acres.

    https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...531_rect/7_zm/

    Can probably grow lettuce all summer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2melow View Post
    Loveland out? Gardeners dream, and you can pedal to Bobcat Ridge, probably one of the best rides on the front range. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...23_rect/11_zm/
    Quick and easy ride to Horsetooth, too. Especially when a new trail head gets built on the newly aquired land south-west of the current upper parking lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    Quick and easy ride to Horsetooth, too. Especially when a new trail head gets built on the newly aquired land south-west of the current upper parking lot.
    Yes! Excited for that acquisition. Just 3.2 miles from that Loveland home to Horsetooth Mountain Park. These trails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGlPXjJJBY But it's "front range" still I guess, though this area is not typical "front range" congestion and you amazing trails out your door.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2melow View Post
    But it's "front range" still I guess, though this area is not typical "front range" congestion.
    I've always wondered why everything around Masonville has a Loveland address instead of a Masonville address. Masonville even has a Post Office.

    The proximity of the property you posted to the Buckhorn / Pennock gravel and to the Redstone Canyon gravel is also attractive. It also make it easy to take the back way down to Lyons or up to Estes.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2melow View Post
    Loveland out? Gardeners dream, and you can pedal to Bobcat Ridge, probably one of the best rides on the front range. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...23_rect/11_zm/


    How about northern Front Range? 36.41 acres.

    https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...531_rect/7_zm/

    Can probably grow lettuce all summer.

    The first one is over our $500K max budget, and while they show a garden, it does not say where the water comes from. The house may be old enough to have a well from which irrigation is allowed, which would be cool, unless it ran dry. If you have to drill a new well, you get a new well permit, and you are not allowed to irrigate from newer wells unless you have over 35 acres.

    Wyoming? No thanks.

    Masonville is great because as far as I know, they have not found oil/gas in that area. Anything further south/east and you run into that very big issue. You do have the high homeowner's insurance problem in Masonville due to fire danger. I'll say it again, if Colorado gets a Paradise-like fire, hundreds of thousands of people who live in the Red Zone are going to be very unhappy when they are unable to get homeowner's insurance.

    I did a search on the area around Masonville for anything 1+ acre for under $500K and there is one, single house. It is a old, tiny ranch fixer upper on exactly one acre, and it has city water, which you can use to irrigate if you don't mind paying $2-300/mo for water in summer.

    Nice area, but unless the market cools way down, not an option.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post

    Wyoming? No thanks.
    Check out Lander before you write off the entire state. Not that Wyoming was in the list originally, but there's at least one nice town in Colorado's step twin...
    WTB: Med Bontrager Ti Lite, PM Me...

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    The first one is over our $500K max budget, and while they show a garden, it does not say where the water comes from. The house may be old enough to have a well from which irrigation is allowed, which would be cool, unless it ran dry. If you have to drill a new well, you get a new well permit, and you are not allowed to irrigate from newer wells unless you have over 35 acres.
    According to the state water engineer, this property is on a well (permit # 310136). The well permit says it is a domestic and livestock well, so it can water up to 1 acre of garden / yard, etc. It is a historical well from the 1940's which was registered last year in the modern system. Permit data shows 75 feet deep with a flow rate of 15 gpm.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    According to the state water engineer, this property is on a well (permit # 310136). The well permit says it is a domestic and livestock well, so it can water up to 1 acre of garden / yard, etc. It is a historical well from the 1940's which was registered last year in the modern system. Permit data shows 75 feet deep with a flow rate of 15 gpm.
    That's what I figured. Well permits prior to, I believe it was 1970, allow someone to water up to an acre.

    Still out of our price range. I'm going to start keeping an eye on that area though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    Yep, agreed... if the OP is willing to leave Colorado there are plenty of options in the surrounding states with access to really good MTB'ing. Albuquerque, St. George, Prescott, just to name a few.
    Prescott Sucks and it's very conservative. You wouldn't like it here at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    We looked a little into Northern NM, but were surprised to find that the crime rate is almost as bad as ABQ. Weird how a state line seems to make a difference. Taos has a really high crime rate, Durango is much lower, although still higher than I'd like to see.
    Yes I have found northern New Mexico is very strange, interconnected crime relations, not welcoming for outsiders. Just get your concealed carry license and you are good to go in Albuq.

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    Buena Vista. Plenty of houses under $500k but the market is going up. Plenty of places to hike, bike, ect. Store in town, Walmart 30 minutes down the road, bike shop in town, within an hour of three ski areas. Weather isnt too bad allthough this year we have gotten more snow than the last three we have been here. Wind blows pretty good up on the mesa north of town where we live.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen1978 View Post
    Buena Vista. Plenty of houses under $500k but the market is going up. Plenty of places to hike, bike, ect. Store in town, Walmart 30 minutes down the road, bike shop in town, within an hour of three ski areas. Weather isnt too bad allthough this year we have gotten more snow than the last three we have been here. Wind blows pretty good up on the mesa north of town where we live.
    We were just in BV on Monday. Can't grow fruit or a decent garden up there. Also, the prison is kind of an overbearing presence. Also, wind blows.

    We took a swing through SW Colorado and checked out winter in Dolores, Mancos, Hesperus, and all the way across 160 to 285, then north. Holy crap does the San Luis Valley get cold. No way would I retire to that. Salida is very nice but that ship has sailed financially. Another case of if we had a crystal ball in the mid-90's when we fooled around with some property in South Park, we could have bought a *really* nice house for $100K in Salida and now been sitting on a pile of cash. I should have jumped back when I did the Banana Belt Loop a couple of times. BV is just not as nice. Colder, windier, etc.

    Dolores and Mancos are pretty awesome. Lots of water around there, lakes, streams, big mountains to the north, desert to the west, Durango to the east, plus Mesa Verde right there. Less expensive than Salida or BV. Winters are warmer and a little shorter, and the wind is not an issue like it is around BV.

    Paonia/Hotchkiss are also really cool. Winters are not bad, elevation is similar to Golden, you can grow just about anything, and water is easy to get. The MTB riding is not as good as Mancos but you can hit a lot of trails with a short drive. Real Estate is about half of what it is around Salida. Don't tell anyone, but to me they look to be in the same place property-wise that Salida was 25 years ago. Salida used to be a ranch and mine town, and when the mining died off it went through a long lull before being discovered. Paonia/Hotchkiss have had a lot of coal jobs go away and there is only one coal mine left. Meanwhile the area is turning into a kind of artist/organic farm/B&B hotspot.

    For now we're going to check out those two areas.

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    Kinda what we did when we moved up here. We cruised the exact areas you did. We really like Taylor Park so that swerved us closer to BV. The prison isnt bad.....Im the fleet maintenance supervisor there and my wife is an officer....lol! Im glad we got here when we did. We have gained nearly $200k in equity in our house in 3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen1978 View Post
    Kinda what we did when we moved up here. We cruised the exact areas you did. We really like Taylor Park so that swerved us closer to BV. The prison isnt bad.....Im the fleet maintenance supervisor there and my wife is an officer....lol! Im glad we got here when we did. We have gained nearly $200k in equity in our house in 3 years.
    Cool. I am shocked at how fast prices are rising just about everywhere south of I-70. Zillow really helps you see that. There are houses in Paonia that people are flipping after one year for a 30% profit, with minimal upgrades. It sucks for us, we seem to be behind the curve, that's what we get for being at the tail end of the baby boom.

    You probably know this already, but paving Cottonwood Pass is not going to do Taylor Park any favors. A lot more touristas will be sailing through there when that project is completed. I know that they don't plan to keep it open in the winter at this point, but I guarantee there will eventually be pressure to do that. It would make getting to CB a lot easier from the Front Range, and now that Vail owns CB, it is inevitable. Gotta recoup their investment, ya know? But you think they will pay for that? Nope, that is why they have lobbyists.

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    Yeah Ive been saying that since we got up here. As soon as that pass is paved it will ruin it. We have actually thought about moving up to Idaho....Driggs area as we really enjoy the Tetons. But will probably just wait till the kids get out of school in 8 more years, sell our house for hopefully $750k and go RV the CONUS. I get tired of keeping up with a house and all the crap that goes with it.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen1978 View Post
    Yeah Ive been saying that since we got up here. As soon as that pass is paved it will ruin it. We have actually thought about moving up to Idaho....Driggs area as we really enjoy the Tetons. But will probably just wait till the kids get out of school in 8 more years, sell our house for hopefully $750k and go RV the CONUS. I get tired of keeping up with a house and all the crap that goes with it.
    We plan on the RV thing as well, at least half time. We want a base here in CO, but we plan on spending a lot of time RV'ing around.

    A lot of people who do full time RV'ing without a real base establish domicile in FL, TX or SD, but of course, a key issue is health insurance. I hate how that one factor has come to drive so many life decisions people have to make, especially if you are in the terrible stretch between ages 60 and 65, where you can't get Medicare, but private health insurance is thousands of dollars per month. That is one of the really, really bad things about Western Colorado, the health insurance premiums are the highest in the USA. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to full-time RV with a western Colorado address, you are just throwing money away on health insurance and state income taxes. The only way it makes sense is to have a pile of money in the bank to live off of, and show a low income so that you don't pay income taxes, and you can get Obamacare subsidies to make your health insurance actually affordable. In a nutshell, you have to have money to save money.

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    Oh I get that. We kicked around the idea recently about selling out and raising our kids on the road RVing / road schooling. Thought about basing back in Texas where we could be close to my folks that are early 70s and could use a hand. Work part time seasonal whereever we landed at a few months. Sounds good but probably a horrible life choice that will rear its ugly head later in life. We live in an awesome place right now and have cush jobs with the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Because I know there are places IN COLORADO that will fit our needs.

    Why would I move to bum**** states like Arkansas or California?
    Are you tied to Colorado?

    Have you looked farther afield? If you're worried about governments far to the right, you ought to look at WA. Western WA, specifically. Eastern WA is more to the right, but in both halves of the state, you can ride 9-10 months of the year. Even in the rain.

    Of course, western WA is gray about half of the year, so you'd have to deal with that.

    Oregon; Bend, specifically, might meet your needs. Housing in both places may be a limiting factor, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Are you tied to Colorado?

    Have you looked farther afield? If you're worried about governments far to the right, you ought to look at WA. Western WA, specifically. Eastern WA is more to the right, but in both halves of the state, you can ride 9-10 months of the year. Even in the rain.

    Of course, western WA is gray about half of the year, so you'd have to deal with that.

    Oregon; Bend, specifically, might meet your needs. Housing in both places may be a limiting factor, though.
    After so many years in sunny Colorado, I really hate rain and mud.

    I know a couple of people who have moved up there, Bellingham, Anacortes and Olympia. Neat places, but we are not ocean people so that doesn't hold any attraction, and the gray wet doesn't do anything for us either.

    Idaho would probably be more likely, but I don't see any advantage to Idaho over Western Colorado at this point. Utah has some nice areas and some not so nice, but in the end the Mormons still run the state and it is pretty whack. Moab is perfect if you like massive overcrowding 9 months out of the year, and a government hell bent on becoming the most overbearing, controlling, far left haven east of California, to try to counteract the far right in most of the rest of the state I guess.

  67. #67
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    Interesting. You mean Moab city government is lurching left? How so?

    (Sorry... kind of a derailing question, but have not heard anything about it!)

    You could check out Wenatchee or Chelan on eastern WA, then. High desert, very little gray. Or Spokane, if you want a bigger city. All have great riding. Not sure you'd like Boise... I hear it's becoming pretty over crowded, too.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Interesting. You mean Moab city government is lurching left? How so?

    (Sorry... kind of a derailing question, but have not heard anything about it!)

    You could check out Wenatchee or Chelan on eastern WA, then. High desert, very little gray. Or Spokane, if you want a bigger city. All have great riding. Not sure you'd like Boise... I hear it's becoming pretty over crowded, too.
    The Moab city government is solidly left.

    1) They now make local decisions based on micromanaging their "carbon impact", as if making your living off of luring people to travel from around the globe has no impact.

    2) Boulder passed a law requiring stores to charge for plastic bags, so Moab passed a law BANNING them. Never mind that 75% of the people buying stuff there are visiting, and I don't know about you, but I don't carry a reusable shopping bag on the airplane when I travel.

    3) They just rammed through a "Density Overlay" in the county to usurp zoning regulations by fiat, and jam hundreds of "affordable housing units" (high rise apartments) into the back yards of people in rural areas. Of course, the city itself owns a couple of huge empty lots in town where they could slap in the hundreds of units, but the people on the city and county councils live nearby, so they didn't do that. They selected the rural areas outside of town. Which means people will drive to work instead of walk. Good thinking. I'm sure the next step will be to create a community bus, paid for by the people who don't want the growth anyway, to transport the workers from their apartments that are miles from their jobs.

    4) They are about to force everyone to pay for a recycling bin and curbside recycling service - except for the businesses that generate much more trash than individual households. Can't cut into their profit margins.


    The issues are way deeper than left vs. right. The entire area is now jacked by epic overcrowding 9 month out of the year, and yet they keep running TV ads, magazine ads, radio ads, and every other form of advertising to get more people to go there. Except wait, the hotels are full, so they need more hotels, except wait, there are no employees to fill the jobs, so they recruit "college students" (wink wink) to come on temporary visas from overseas and live 12 to a house. Which causes a whole new set of issues when you have three bedroom houses in quiet neighborhoods with 12 people living in them. They actually finally addressed the issue of "bunkhouses" at the city council level by simply telling people to shut up and deal, the hotels need their workers. Meanwhile, the same people who have 12 people living in a "bunkhouse" next door are not allowed to AirBnb a single bedroom because of the "neighborhood impacts". LMAO. It is the hotel owners protecting their turf, and everyone knows it.

    The only "planning" being done is to attempt to react to the gross impacts they are causing to themselves through approving hotel after hotel and condo complex after condo complex. Their sewer system blew out so badly they had to have an emergency build of a new system. Meanwhile the crap from the pit toilets in all the parks had to be driven over 100 miles to Grand Junction to be dumped. The cost of the new treatment plant was piled on the backs of the residents already living there rather than levy an impact fee on new construction. Water itself is an entirely different issue looming over the area. They just had a study done to determine how much water was in the valley, and it came in way short of what they assumed. Think that has tempered the growth plans? Think again. They are going to grow until they blow, and then they'll figure out what to do then, of course, the residents will pay for that as well. Good luck treating that radioactive Colorado River water and pumping it uphill.

    The traffic is so bad now that on some days there are backups over five miles long trying to get out of town to the north. So, of course, they are going to widen the road to four lanes. And who will pay for that? The taxpayers.

    It's all a bunch of bullshit. The people running the show are only going to hang around until they can cash out. Many of the business owners live elsewhere now anyway. The workers will continue to be abused. The poor residents who have lived there for decades and have nothing to do with the tourism industry are told to shut up and pay the increased taxes, increased water/sewer fees, pay for recycling bins whether they need them or not, and just go to the City Market at 6 AM if they don't like crowds.

  69. #69
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    Wow. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but in the summer of 2017, there were no crowds or traffic jams. That kinda sucks.

    Wonder where it's all coming from?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    The Moab city government is solidly left.

    1) They now make local decisions based on micromanaging their "carbon impact", as if making your living off of luring people to travel from around the globe has no impact.

    2) Boulder passed a law requiring stores to charge for plastic bags, so Moab passed a law BANNING them. Never mind that 75% of the people buying stuff there are visiting, and I don't know about you, but I don't carry a reusable shopping bag on the airplane when I travel.

    3) They just rammed through a "Density Overlay" in the county to usurp zoning regulations by fiat, and jam hundreds of "affordable housing units" (high rise apartments) into the back yards of people in rural areas. Of course, the city itself owns a couple of huge empty lots in town where they could slap in the hundreds of units, but the people on the city and county councils live nearby, so they didn't do that. They selected the rural areas outside of town. Which means people will drive to work instead of walk. Good thinking. I'm sure the next step will be to create a community bus, paid for by the people who don't want the growth anyway, to transport the workers from their apartments that are miles from their jobs.

    4) They are about to force everyone to pay for a recycling bin and curbside recycling service - except for the businesses that generate much more trash than individual households. Can't cut into their profit margins.


    The issues are way deeper than left vs. right. The entire area is now jacked by epic overcrowding 9 month out of the year, and yet they keep running TV ads, magazine ads, radio ads, and every other form of advertising to get more people to go there. Except wait, the hotels are full, so they need more hotels, except wait, there are no employees to fill the jobs, so they recruit "college students" (wink wink) to come on temporary visas from overseas and live 12 to a house. Which causes a whole new set of issues when you have three bedroom houses in quiet neighborhoods with 12 people living in them. They actually finally addressed the issue of "bunkhouses" at the city council level by simply telling people to shut up and deal, the hotels need their workers. Meanwhile, the same people who have 12 people living in a "bunkhouse" next door are not allowed to AirBnb a single bedroom because of the "neighborhood impacts". LMAO. It is the hotel owners protecting their turf, and everyone knows it.

    The only "planning" being done is to attempt to react to the gross impacts they are causing to themselves through approving hotel after hotel and condo complex after condo complex. Their sewer system blew out so badly they had to have an emergency build of a new system. Meanwhile the crap from the pit toilets in all the parks had to be driven over 100 miles to Grand Junction to be dumped. The cost of the new treatment plant was piled on the backs of the residents already living there rather than levy an impact fee on new construction. Water itself is an entirely different issue looming over the area. They just had a study done to determine how much water was in the valley, and it came in way short of what they assumed. Think that has tempered the growth plans? Think again. They are going to grow until they blow, and then they'll figure out what to do then, of course, the residents will pay for that as well. Good luck treating that radioactive Colorado River water and pumping it uphill.

    The traffic is so bad now that on some days there are backups over five miles long trying to get out of town to the north. So, of course, they are going to widen the road to four lanes. And who will pay for that? The taxpayers.

    It's all a bunch of bullshit. The people running the show are only going to hang around until they can cash out. Many of the business owners live elsewhere now anyway. The workers will continue to be abused. The poor residents who have lived there for decades and have nothing to do with the tourism industry are told to shut up and pay the increased taxes, increased water/sewer fees, pay for recycling bins whether they need them or not, and just go to the City Market at 6 AM if they don't like crowds.
    Sounds like they are setting the stage for another killdozer event.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Wow. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but in the summer of 2017, there were no crowds or traffic jams. That kinda sucks.

    Wonder where it's all coming from?
    The has been a huge increase in tourism from foreign countries due to broadening the scope of Moab's advertising. There have always been a lot of German tourists due to their love of "western" stuff, but now you have a lot of Chinese, South American, and basically people from all over the globe. This is on top of the massive increase in domestic tourism. It isn't all MTB, in fact, the majority is *not* MTB oriented. Believe it or not, Instagram and other Social Media are the primary drivers. People have seen photos of Delicate Arch, Mesa Arch, Monument Valley, etc. for years, and now they just have to take a selfie with those things in the photo. I'm not kidding. We went up to Canyonlands over Christmas, thinking the the government shutdown, recent snow, and temps in the 20's would allow us to cruise around and sightsee the way you could years ago, even in good weather. Nope. All the parking ares were full of rental cars, and I think we might have been the only people speaking English. That is the "magic" of international tourism: the people are going to show up even if the weather is bad or something else is keeping the people from Denver and SLC home.

    Anyway, Moab is out. I hope they enjoy their future of traffic jams, water/sewer shortages, transient worker issues, people living in vans down by the river, and everything else they are inviting.

    I used to think Jim Stiles, the guy who runs the Canyon Country Zephyr and who wrote a book in 2007 called : "Brave New West: Morphing Moab at the Speed of Greed" was just a local curmudgeon who wanted to go back to the '60's, but it turns out he was right. As was Edward Abbey decades earlier. Industrial Tourism ruins a place just a completely as coal, oil, steel, or any other intensive industry, except is is arguably worse, since it doesn't even provide a living wage for most people involved.

  72. #72
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    Sounds like what Bend, OR went through about 20 or so years ago.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Sounds like what Bend, OR went through about 20 or so years ago.
    Industrial tourism rather accurately describes what New Zealand is currently going through now. Weíve wrecked our rivers and waterways with industrial dairying, filled the countryside with tourists/hotels, overrun with camper vans and weíre one of the most over priced places to buy a house in the world. You should come visit

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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    It's comical that one of your concerns is about criminal activity and then you complain about "how far right the county government seems to be". As a retired police officer, I can tell you the left and all their pie in the sky policies related to criminals in general is responsible fro higher crime rates and so many dirtbags on the street...instead of a cell or 6 feet under where they belong. Even the article you link to complains of theft and drug crimes. What do you expect when your state is a free for all for stoners. Drug fiends in general will steal anything that isn't nailed down to finance their habits. The Left made that bed, and continues to do so in CA in spite of themselves, so now it's time to sleep in it!!!
    AMEN!
    Live in Lewis just outside Cortez for 30 years.
    Yep, conservative, but don't worry, it's not contagious!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggis View Post
    Industrial tourism rather accurately describes what New Zealand is currently going through now. Weíve wrecked our rivers and waterways with industrial dairying, filled the countryside with tourists/hotels, overrun with camper vans and weíre one of the most over priced places to buy a house in the world. You should come visit
    I work (remotely) with a guy who lives in Wellington, and he says the same thing. On top of still trying to recover from the earthquakes, the place is being slammed with tourists the same way Moab is being slammed.

    My condolences. At least here in the western US, there *are* some places to which we can currently escape. They might blow out twenty years from now, but we are basically looking at a 20 year horizon for most outdoor activities anyway.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    At least here in the western US, there *are* some places to which we can currently escape. They might blow out twenty years from now, but we are basically looking at a 20 year horizon for most outdoor activities anyway.
    This is the truth. Fort Collins/Loveland kind of gets a bad rap for still being "Front Range" and "college town" but you can still get pretty deep pretty fast if you head north into Wyoming. Wyoming in the summer is truly amazing. This spot in Wyoming is 63 miles exactly from my driveway to location, we can drop trailer and not see anyone for 3 days literally and I can still pull 2 bars of 4g.

    I fear we would miss some of the local amenities (food, shopping, etc.) we are used to - all within 3 miles or less of our home (having visited some other cities listed above) but that might change in 20 years when we are ready to retire.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggis View Post
    Industrial tourism rather accurately describes what New Zealand is currently going through now. Weíve wrecked our rivers and waterways with industrial dairying, filled the countryside with tourists/hotels, overrun with camper vans and weíre one of the most over priced places to buy a house in the world. You should come visit
    We noticed a big difference in the number of tourists in the 13 years between our first visit to New Zealand and our most recent visit. We thought part of it was due to the last visit being on the north island when previous visits were to the south island, but it sounds like the whole country is being over run with tourism. Apparently we are part of the problem. Sorry.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    We noticed a big difference in the number of tourists in the 13 years between our first visit to New Zealand and our most recent visit. We thought part of it was due to the last visit being on the north island when previous visits were to the south island, but it sounds like the whole country is being over run with tourism. Apparently we are part of the problem. Sorry.
    The secret is bound to get out with such an amazing beautiful unspoiled place.
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