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  1. #1
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    Greener grass than Fruita?

    After having a child, I have a growing urge to relocate from Fruita, CO for a variety of non-MTB related reasons. First priority is not MTB trails, but after living in Fruita I will not live somewhere further than 20 miles from at least one high quality trail system. Also not interested in living near a huge city. Curious to hear opinions on the following places (and also other worthy suggestions). These are ranked by my current preference, but I have never actually been to any of these places.

    1) Greater Lake Tahoe area - outskirts of Reno, Carson City, or the far east/northeast outskirts of Sacramento. I need a hospital to work at as an RN, but would rather live 20-30 miles away from work to be closer to trails.

    2) Prescott, AZ. I love Cave Creek / the greater Phoenix area for riding in the winter. I also love Sedona / Flagstaff, but obviously those are less affordable than Prescott.

    3) Los Alamos, NM.
    4) Taos, NM
    5) Greater Santa Fe area

    Lots of interest in NM, just never been there. Also some minor interest in Southern CA, but nothing really seems affordable there and also close to excellent trails (but what do I know!)

  2. #2
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    You need to give us a clue about why you want to leave Fruita. To me personally, any one of your targets would be a massive downgrade.

  3. #3
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    Check out Tucson, AZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    1) Greater Lake Tahoe area - outskirts of Reno, Carson City, or the far east/northeast outskirts of Sacramento. I need a hospital to work at as an RN, but would rather live 20-30 miles away from work to be closer to trails.
    I spent 6 months in tne north-east outskirts of Sacramento (Roseville) in the early 90's and it was not far enough from Sacramento and not close enough to Tahoe. I'd go at least as far east as Auburn if you end up in that area.

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    As a Santa Fe resident, I could provide a wealth of insight, but you kinda limit your rationale. All in all, NM is an interesting place--uninhabited, poor, dirty on the surface, but a pretty amazing place to live once you dive in under the surface. Very different than the others you listed for various reasons, so would need more info, but excellent and uncrowded riding practically year-round and always something interesting going on.

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    I figured that more detail was needed but also wasn't sure how many people would read an extra 200 words with an already long post.

    In short, the county is hyper Christian / right wing (and IMO too many are hypocrital, not good people that just use this as a facade). Along with that there is a lot of willful ignorance, which is a bad combination with an already under-educated area. There is almost no diversity, and this place sorely needs it. The county also has the highest suicide rates in the state, along with other poor public health measures that correspond with sheltered kids (high STD rates, teen pregnancy, tobacco and drug/substance abuse).

    Also it just gets so damn hot here, and stays hot for a long time. Its honestly not much cooler here than the Phoenix area. Conversely in the winter it stays below freezing for way too long for how hot it gets. The nearby high elevation trails leave a lot to be desired. I would prefer Montrose in that regard, but the cultural things I highlighted are worse there.

    I love the idea of Fruita more than the actual lived experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    I figured that more detail was needed but also wasn't sure how many people would read an extra 200 words with an already long post.

    In short, the county is hyper Christian / right wing (and IMO too many are hypocrital, not good people that just use this as a facade). Along with that there is a lot of willful ignorance, which is a bad combination with an already under-educated area. There is almost no diversity, and this place sorely needs it. The county also has the highest suicide rates in the state, along with other poor public health measures that correspond with sheltered kids (high STD rates, teen pregnancy, tobacco and drug/substance abuse).

    Also it just gets so damn hot here, and stays hot for a long time. Its honestly not much cooler here than the Phoenix area. Conversely in the winter it stays below freezing for way too long for how hot it gets. The nearby high elevation trails leave a lot to be desired. I would prefer Montrose in that regard, but the cultural things I highlighted are worse there.

    I love the idea of Fruita more than the actual lived experience.

    Ft. Collins/Loveland have great schools, and are not as redneck as Mesa County. They are not as far left whack as Boulder, either. Great riding nearby, good economy, about as expensive as Fruita at this point. They are only 4-500' higher in elevation than Fruita, but not as hot. Not a ton of snow, but there is wind.

    Boulder is a whole different level of loony, in the opposite direction of Grand. Be careful what you wish for.

    I'm curious why you didn't mention Durango? Not as hot, only a little colder in winter but people ride all year. Lots of progressive people. Paonia is a pretty non-redneck town, also Mancos, Ridgway, Salida.

    I guess if "diversity" is an issue, you aren't going to get "diversity" anywhere in CO, unless you consider Pueblo to be diverse. It is over 50% Hispanic.

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    No idea what your budget is but Tahoe and Sacramento are big $$$. Tons of Californians are fleeing the state for that Reno-Carson City-Minden area the last few years and have been running to Prescott longer than that. Both those areas tend to lean conservative as well...which is a plus for me and we've already got land in Prescott to build on ourselves in 2020. However, because of that, prices are going up.

    I've only been to NM to ride once but I've driven through many areas of NM on several occasions....wouldn't live there for free.

    If you're okay with the whack-job politics of CA, you'll definitely make the most money as an RN in CA. I have (2) friends that work for Kaiser here in San Diego and they are making over $60 an hour with unlimited OT available.

    What about Durango? Definitely doesn't lean conservative, has a great hospital that pays pretty well, a huge variety of riding options as well as access to whitewater diversions.
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    What about the east coast?! Asheville/Brevard?

    The riding there is quite good.

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    My only visit to Asheville was quite lovely. I did not get to ride unfortunately - but the trails do look stellar from videos I have seen. All that said, I can't do that kind of humidity.

    I really like Durango, just don't know that a teacher and RN can afford living there to a comparable level of comfort that we can in Fruita. I did a preliminary Zillow scan of Tahoe area after you said it is $$$, and that looks to be slightly more affordable than Durango (when the higher pay is factored in). Even San Diego area could be more affordable if I could make $60/hr.

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    Wellll...

    The mountain west is not diverse. A hardware store in a rich little Colorado town had a picture of a man in black face displayed. The store had the right to display it, but I had the right to post it on social media. We had a discussion and worked it out. The point Iím trying to make is most people will try to be reasonable and you will find a holes (the store manager is not a a hole) everywhere.

    1. Santa Fe
    2. Salt Lake City - I know!!!! Big younger demographic. Big university. The Mormons are respectful and donít shove their beliefs down your throat but of course they are the dominant political force.
    3. Bend
    4. Boise?
    5. Cottonwood- red opposed to Sedona blue. Most people are very nice. Large Hispanic population. Small Indian reservation. We need nurses. Iím not sure about teachers. Cost of living - meh. Very close to Flag which I think is purple/blue.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    I figured that more detail was needed but also wasn't sure how many people would read an extra 200 words with an already long post.

    In short, the county is hyper Christian / right wing (and IMO too many are hypocrital, not good people that just use this as a facade). Along with that there is a lot of willful ignorance, which is a bad combination with an already under-educated area. There is almost no diversity, and this place sorely needs it. The county also has the highest suicide rates in the state, along with other poor public health measures that correspond with sheltered kids (high STD rates, teen pregnancy, tobacco and drug/substance abuse).

    Also it just gets so damn hot here, and stays hot for a long time. Its honestly not much cooler here than the Phoenix area. Conversely in the winter it stays below freezing for way too long for how hot it gets. The nearby high elevation trails leave a lot to be desired. I would prefer Montrose in that regard, but the cultural things I highlighted are worse there.

    I love the idea of Fruita more than the actual lived experience.
    If anywhere in Colorado is too conservative for you, you definitely don't want to move anywhere in Arizona, and if you move to New Mexico, you won't want to leave Taos, Santa Fe, ABQ (not its suburbs, just ABQ) or the Las Cruces area. I also have serious doubt that anywhere near Fruita, Colorado is "hyper Christian / right wing" having visited there and attended the Fat Tire Festival where I got to drink beer in the middle of the street. Maybe you really do need to move to California.

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    I actually prefer Conservative policies (states rights, small government) just see it overshadowed locally by the cramming of an alleged moral high ground down everyone else's throat (extreme pro-life, anti-LGBT, etc etc)

    Appreciate all the input, clearly I have some more homework to do. In a perfect world I would be able to do some travel contracts in all of these places, but the reality is I probably won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    My only visit to Asheville was quite lovely. I did not get to ride unfortunately - but the trails do look stellar from videos I have seen. All that said, I can't do that kind of humidity.

    I really like Durango, just don't know that a teacher and RN can afford living there to a comparable level of comfort that we can in Fruita. I did a preliminary Zillow scan of Tahoe area after you said it is $$$, and that looks to be slightly more affordable than Durango (when the higher pay is factored in). Even San Diego area could be more affordable if I could make $60/hr.
    Durango proper would be tough to buy a house for a RN and teacher, however, you could consider Bayfield, Durango West I and II areas as well as Mancos area as satellite communities to Durango. If youíre willing to forego city water and use a cistern up in the hills 20+ minutes out of town, real estate prices drop quickly as well. (Youíd need 4WD vehicles with plow attachments for the winters though since plowing is less frequent). You could also look at trailer parks out in the Animas Valley, though the monthly slot fees make that a less desirable option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    If anywhere in Colorado is too conservative for you, you definitely don't want to move anywhere in Arizona, and if you move to New Mexico, you won't want to leave Taos, Santa Fe, ABQ (not its suburbs, just ABQ) or the Las Cruces area. I also have serious doubt that anywhere near Fruita, Colorado is "hyper Christian / right wing" having visited there and attended the Fat Tire Festival where I got to drink beer in the middle of the street. Maybe you really do need to move to California.
    The only real "liberal" portions of CO are north and west of 70 and 25, plus Pueblo, and some of the ski resort areas. The vast majority of the rural areas are pretty damn conservative, to the tune of ~R+20, resulting in an anti-federal lands/anti-National Parks jackass like Doug Lanborn being my congressional representative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...ional_district

    Mesa County went 61-35 for the Republican candidate for governor in 2018. 62-31 for the Republican House candidate. I'd say that's pretty conservative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The only real "liberal" portions of CO are north and west of 70 and 25, plus Pueblo, and some of the ski resort areas.
    It depends on how you slice it. There are some liberal small towns on the Western Slope, but I think it is safe to say that almost every county is conservative. The problem is Colorado's default county commission form of government where there are only three county commissioners calling the shots. Oil and gas pump money into the commissioner campaigns of the most conservative, O&G friendly Republicans they can dig up. So you end up with relatively progressive towns like Paonia and Mancos being overridden by batshit crazy right wing loons at the county level. La Plata and Chaffee are the only non-resort counties on the Western Slope that could even be considered middle of the road, and only because the populations of Durango and Salida are large enough to hold some sway. Delta County (Paonia) and Montezuma County (Mancos) are old school drill baby drill and run over spandex kinds of governments. Makes it tough to find a place to retire that is middle of the road and reasonable.

    BTW, I don't agree that all areas north of I-70 and west of I-25 are liberal. Boulder and Golden are liberal, Longmont is solidly middle of the road along with Ft. Collins. Arvada and Loveland are quite conservative. The Jeffco county commission just narrowly tipped "D" after decades of being solidly "R", but we'll have to see if it goes "R" again when one of the Dems comes up for re-election. With over 575,000 people in Jeffco, the county commissioners hold incredible power to f-up things. Think about how many elected officials there are at all levels in the state of Wyoming, which has the same population as Jefferson County. See that ugly strip mine north of Golden, along with the giant gravel/asphalt operation, and the dump, and the ugly industrial parks along 93 and 72? County commissioners with no foresight and no vision allowed those. Throw in the Arvada city council, and you end up with the mess that is brewing out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    It depends on how you slice it. There are some liberal small towns on the Western Slope, but I think it is safe to say that almost every county is conservative. The problem is Colorado's default county commission form of government where there are only three county commissioners calling the shots. Oil and gas pump money into the commissioner campaigns of the most conservative, O&G friendly Republicans they can dig up. So you end up with relatively progressive towns like Paonia and Mancos being overridden by batshit crazy right wing loons at the county level. La Plata and Chaffee are the only non-resort counties on the Western Slope that could even be considered middle of the road, and only because the populations of Durango and Salida are large enough to hold some sway. Delta County (Paonia) and Montezuma County (Mancos) are old school drill baby drill and run over spandex kinds of governments. Makes it tough to find a place to retire that is middle of the road and reasonable.

    BTW, I don't agree that all areas north of I-70 and west of I-25 are liberal. Boulder and Golden are liberal, Longmont is solidly middle of the road along with Ft. Collins. Arvada and Loveland are quite conservative. The Jeffco county commission just narrowly tipped "D" after decades of being solidly "R", but we'll have to see if it goes "R" again when one of the Dems comes up for re-election. With over 575,000 people in Jeffco, the county commissioners hold incredible power to f-up things. Think about how many elected officials there are at all levels in the state of Wyoming, which has the same population as Jefferson County. See that ugly strip mine north of Golden, along with the giant gravel/asphalt operation, and the dump, and the ugly industrial parks along 93 and 72? County commissioners with no foresight and no vision allowed those. Throw in the Arvada city council, and you end up with the mess that is brewing out there.
    Oh, I didn't mean to imply that ALL areas were, just suggesting that the higher concentrations of left-leaning Colorado citizens tend to be in those areas, which is born out by election results. Similarly, while I acknowledge that there are plenty of towns on the western slope that are quite blue, they are vastly outnumbered by the red areas out there. Just like there are towns in CO-2 that are quite conservative that are washed away by larger, bluer population centers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The only real "liberal" portions of CO are north and west of 70 and 25, plus Pueblo, and some of the ski resort areas. The vast majority of the rural areas are pretty damn conservative, to the tune of ~R+20, resulting in an anti-federal lands/anti-National Parks jackass like Doug Lanborn being my congressional representative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...ional_district

    Mesa County went 61-35 for the Republican candidate for governor in 2018. 62-31 for the Republican House candidate. I'd say that's pretty conservative.
    I don't consider progressives "liberal." If you do, I guess that's your problem. I also don't consider all Republicans conservative nor do I expect rural areas to be heavily blue considering the current path of the democratic party, which is relying heavily on the cities. That said, I don't vote D or R, so that may have something to do with my perspective.

    My campsite last weekend (in Colorado) had a guy with an NRA sticker whose campsite smelled like Bob Marley. If that's too conservative for you, Arizona is definitely not a place you want to even visit.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The only real "liberal" portions of CO are north and west of 70 and 25, plus Pueblo, and some of the ski resort areas. The vast majority of the rural areas are pretty damn conservative, to the tune of ~R+20, resulting in an anti-federal lands/anti-National Parks jackass like Doug Lanborn being my congressional representative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colora...ional_district

    Mesa County went 61-35 for the Republican candidate for governor in 2018. 62-31 for the Republican House candidate. I'd say that's pretty conservative.
    So you're in the Springs...I lived there, in Monument, off of County Line Rd, for a year and a half in 2000-01, before I moved to Phoenix. I loved it, with all of the Front Range recreation opportunities. I wasn't that into mountain biking at that point; only really got into it once I moved to Phoenix.

    I'm not sure how much it has changed since I lived there, but I'd move back there, for sure. I'd also be interested in Durango, as we go there each summer for a week to ride, but it seems pretty pricey to live there.
    Ride more; post less...

  20. #20
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    Hmm, not much hotter than Phoenix? Fruita average highs May 77, June 88, July 93, August 91, Sept 82. Phoenix: May 94, June 104, July 106, August 105, Sept 100. So youíre right, there are only an average of 15.4 degrees maximum temperature differences in those five months.

    Fruita is perhaps the most liberal city in the Grand Valley, honestly, in the 32 years I have lived here it has become quite a bit more so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    Hmm, not much hotter than Phoenix? Fruita average highs May 77, June 88, July 93, August 91, Sept 82. Phoenix: May 94, June 104, July 106, August 105, Sept 100. So youíre right, there are only an average of 15.4 degrees maximum temperature differences in those five months.

    Fruita is perhaps the most liberal city in the Grand Valley, honestly, in the 32 years I have lived here it has become quite a bit more so.
    Being the most liberal city in the Grand Valley is like being the most conservative city in the Bay Area. Or something.

    You still have Mesa County running the show outside of the city limits where many of the people who "live in Fruita" actually live. That's the problem with any number of small towns in Western Colorado. The county governments are about as far right as they can get.

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    Tahoe is not as expensive as people are making it out to be. I was recently looking at property there and was surprised to see homes for a decent price, albeit in need of an remodel. I am sure the taxes are high, but so is the pay.

    Yeah, the comparison of Fruita to Phoenix tells me you have never been to Phoenix in the summer. I lived in Tucson for a few years, which is about 10 degrees cooler in the summer and it was still much, much, hotter than it was when I lived in Fruita. I do like the Tucson area a lot and that was a long time ago before a bunch of new bike trails had been built. I think politically I am similar to you with the same annoyances and did not think Tucson was over the top with ultra right wingers being very prevalent. Then again, I don't even feel like what you are talking about is a problem in Fruita. My job did have me surrounded by some very extreme right wingers, but all but one lived in GJ or Delta.

    Since I have left Colorado I have lived in Utah and Idaho. I have also lived in Wyoming before. I would say that these three states are basically full of the annoying political types you are trying to avoid and to a level that would make you dream of going back to Fruita. If you think Fruita is bad because of politics, have you ever been to NM other than Taos? I know that if it was not for my job, I would be back in Fruita or at least within an hours drive.

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    He wouldn't live in NM for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsdude47 View Post
    I figured that more detail was needed but also wasn't sure how many people would read an extra 200 words with an already long post.

    In short, the county is hyper Christian / right wing (and IMO too many are hypocrital, not good people that just use this as a facade). Along with that there is a lot of willful ignorance, which is a bad combination with an already under-educated area. There is almost no diversity, and this place sorely needs it. The county also has the highest suicide rates in the state, along with other poor public health measures that correspond with sheltered kids (high STD rates, teen pregnancy, tobacco and drug/substance abuse).

    Also it just gets so damn hot here, and stays hot for a long time. Its honestly not much cooler here than the Phoenix area. Conversely in the winter it stays below freezing for way too long for how hot it gets. The nearby high elevation trails leave a lot to be desired. I would prefer Montrose in that regard, but the cultural things I highlighted are worse there.

    I love the idea of Fruita more than the actual lived experience.
    Just curious if you are tunnel-visioned to think the problems you wish to escape only happen where you live? Some of of the topics are a great reason to leave but others are just silly in that you'll face it no matter where you live.

    I live north of Sacramento, it will but 107 again today. Probably need to stay away from northern California to avoid the heat.

    I get that you need to do the right thing as a parent but please don't think you're going to escape and land in a different place that won't experience difference political or religious beliefs than you do. Regardless of where you live, the facade of being nice will be true of the locals.

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    I don't think I have tunnel vision, but it is certainly possible. I don't mind people having different beliefs and values, on the contrary I highly value that. However, this county is simply too homogeneous. The negatives I highlighted (in my opinion at least) can be logically linked to the predominance of Faux-Christian "conservative" values (poor public health measures, poor schools / standardized test achievement, etc).

    The more I read about the Tahoe area, the more I like it. The pay increase in CA seems to at the very least balance out the cost of living increase, if not exceed it. From a preliminary review, none of the other places I highlighted even match the pay/COL ratio that I have here in Fruita (which is not fantastic but pretty good.)

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    Before you move anywhere, be sure you look at the real cost of living that *you* will have, not some bullshit index average. For example, if you are going to rent, but the COL index takes into account very high property taxes, it may not affect you as directly. If you are a boozehound and move to Utah, you'll go broke because the state liquor stores have a monopoly. If all you want to eat is non-GMO, full organic fresh produce and the closest store is 20 miles away, that is a factor. ect. etc. etc.

    I personally find that the generic COL indexes don't mean a lot for me personally, because I don't live the way most people do. I drive a lot, so if gas is 10% higher, that means a lot more to me than it does for someone living in downtown Denver and riding transit. I never ride transit, so those costs mean nothing to me, other than the taxes they have sucked out of me for 30+ years.

    Be smart about it, regardless of where you look. Look at *your* COL, not some generic average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Before you move anywhere, be sure you look at the real cost of living that *you* will have, not some bullshit index average. For example, if you are going to rent, but the COL index takes into account very high property taxes, it may not affect you as directly. If you are a boozehound and move to Utah, you'll go broke because the state liquor stores have a monopoly. If all you want to eat is non-GMO, full organic fresh produce and the closest store is 20 miles away, that is a factor. ect. etc. etc.

    I personally find that the generic COL indexes don't mean a lot for me personally, because I don't live the way most people do. I drive a lot, so if gas is 10% higher, that means a lot more to me than it does for someone living in downtown Denver and riding transit. I never ride transit, so those costs mean nothing to me, other than the taxes they have sucked out of me for 30+ years.

    Be smart about it, regardless of where you look. Look at *your* COL, not some generic average.
    Agree with the above. I faced the same issues with my daughter. I didnít move into a wealthier school district with higher rated schools because of lack of diversity. Zip code snobbery came be damaging too.

    I donít know the details of your family, but if you are of mixed race or have widely different cultural differences than the community that you reside it, your concerns are legitimate even though most people are civil.

    Off the top of my head, raising children with my concerns in the mountain west, Santa Fe or Salt Lake City. There are other places where coolness, civility and tolerance are practiced and with great mountain biking out the door, but they are not diverse. I donít like CA.


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    I'll chime in as an RN living in Durango, and a homeowner.

    We were living in SoCal, and miserable. So I did some research on small towns, 4 seasons, access to trails, with a hospital. Then I churned out the resumes.

    My short list was: Golden, CO, Colorado Springs, CO, Bend/Redmond, Durango.

    Durango was the first to call me for an interview and offer me a job in the proper field. I don't think I even consulted with my husband, just told him we were moving.

    I am SO glad I had the job lined up FIRST before I moved. Durango is indeed not cheap, although not that awful of a sticker shock after living in CA. We also got lucky and bought a house when the market was low, in 2013. Much harder to move here now.

    NM has a lot of public health issues, and poor medical care/access. To some RN's that is a calling to step up and help, to others, it is a huge stressor. For me it initially was a calling, but I burned out on hospital/night shift life a few years ago and am now "out to pasture" working in an office setting.

    It's up to you to find that balance between career and place to call home.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    I drive a lot, so if gas is 10% higher,
    ..
    I never ride transit, so those costs mean nothing to me, other than the taxes they have sucked out of me for 30+ years.
    In fairness, cheap transit could be keeping a crap-ton of people off the roads you use a lot. I get your practical number approach but I've found using the flood light / wide frame, as opposed to a spot light, single data point applied literally, to give a better picture of what your daily experience might be like.

    Edit: I was musing on the OP situation and some of the posts... OP, I think you really highlighted a soft-aspect, non-quantified element but super important trait in selecting where you live: connection with the community. If, as in your situation, you simply don't identify with or malign the community - everything becomes a chore and feeds resentment. If you connect with the community, things really open up - outlook and disposition.

    I used to feel virtually no personal association w/ past areas - it was a place to live. Numbers and practicality were heavily weighted: where is it located relative to work, what are the taxes, upside to the market, potential development, etc. But, luckily I found a place where I identified and felt a connection to the community - I'm happy to contribute - ex: no kids but having good schools improves my town and broadens opportunities for business and reinvestment. Not merely trying to safeguard my personal wealth - but practically invest in the community so collectively we can succeed, have potential and maintain our quality of life. yadda yadda yadda.

    Point being: when I read your post on feeling alienated in Fruita, it resonated - I wouldn't necessarily want to contribute & invest in a place where I didn't connect with the community. Its hard to sort this out without actually living someplace but from what I read, it sounds like community-identification is extremely important to you. Once you get your location-practicality sorted, I encourage you to take stock of this. Personally, I'd rather stretch my finances a bit to live in a place where I loved the community vs. live economically in some place where I couldn't identify with most of the people.

    Best of luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    In fairness, cheap transit could be keeping a crap-ton of people off the roads you use a lot. I get your practical number approach but I've found using the flood light / wide frame, as opposed to a spot light, single data point applied literally, to give a better picture of what your daily experience might be like.
    Unfortunately, I am in Jefferson County, CO, which is part of the Denver Metro and we pay transit taxes. But my house is in the foothills, which have *no* transit, and I only go to Denver about twice a year. My 19 mile route to work crosses exactly one transit route of any kind, 8 miles from my house, and it is a bus that goes perpendicular to where I am going. I pay the same taxes as someone surrounded by transit. When I moved to my house, there was a bus that went right past my driveway, but it was cut several years ago.

    NW Jeffco has boomed in the past ten years, but RTD is so broke they have cut transit. There are tens of thousands of people who live more than three miles from any kind of transit, some are over 15 miles. RTD is terminally broken. It stands for "Regional Transit District", but they spend 75% of their money in Denver, and 95% of their money on archaic spoke-and-hub transit routes in and out of downtown Denver. I literally do not know a single person among neighbors or co-workers who ride any RTD transit of any kind, ever. They aren't doing jack for the people where I live and work. If you live in the City of Denver, you *might* get some use out of it. Or, if you live in Boulder, which uses its own tax money to fund routes, on top of the minimal transit provided by RTD, you might have some use for the buses up there.

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    Ever considered Texas?

    My brother-in-law is an RN and has looked at it heavily and has an RN friend that moved down there a couple years ago and loves it. The medical field is strong down there because of retirees. Heís like 45 minutes out of Houston and picked up a massive piece of property on the cheap. He is much more on the conservative side thoughÖ

    While a lot of Texas is highly conservative, there are areas that are much more liberal and also many that are a mix of both...although, liberals make up like 50% of the population, they are highly under represented due to jerry meandering, but whatever, not trying to make this political. Just saying there is political diversity in some areas of Texas.

    Iíve heard mountain biking down there also has a surprisingly strong community and I think the temperatures are much more temperate then the high desert. Anyway, Iím in SLC and completely get the hypocritical Christian value struggle as well as the extreme temperature swings summer to winter. Iíve also worked in Boise a bit the last few years. I really liked it up there but I would bet itís similar in the religion issue.

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    The skiing sucks in Texas though, that is a no go for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    The skiing sucks in Texas though, that is a no go for me.
    Only 12 hours from Dallas to Wolf Creek. Hell, it almost takes that long to get from Summit to Denver sometimes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Once you get your location-practicality sorted, I encourage you to take stock of this. Personally, I'd rather stretch my finances a bit to live in a place where I loved the community vs. live economically in some place where I couldn't identify with most of the people.
    +1
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    I think Carl Mega hit the nail on the head. I would also be happier stretching myself financially to live somewhere I love for myself and my family. Unfortunately my wife doesn't quite see eye to eye with me on the issue. The good thing is I think Fruita is trending in a great direction - though I'm not really convinced Mesa County as a whole is.

    As for the suggestion of Texas, I just can't see it. I wouldn't necessarily miss skiing, but I would miss high elevation summer pursuits (hiking 14ers, MTB, rafting, etc) With that said I have only ever been to Dallas. I would happily work contracts down somewhere near Big Bend, outside Austin, or outside San Antonio. Maybe I would like it more than I think. There has to be a reason besides no state tax that people are flocking there.

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    Sorry, but Texas sucks. It is hot, humid, and the state is 99% boring looking terrain. I have a lot of friends that live there, but only because of jobs and they just bitch non stop about how bad Texas is whenever I talk to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Only 12 hours from Dallas to Wolf Creek. Hell, it almost takes that long to get from Summit to Denver sometimes!
    It takes me 35 minutes to get from Palisade to Powderhorn, 2.5 hours to Telluride and Crested Butte, 3.2 hours to Steamboat, 2 hours to Vail...all without fighting Front Range traffic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    It takes me 35 minutes to get from Palisade to Powderhorn, 2.5 hours to Telluride and Crested Butte, 3.2 hours to Steamboat, 2 hours to Vail...all without fighting Front Range traffic.
    Access to skiing is yet another reason the GJ area will see massive growth in the future, It is going to have the exact same traffic issues the Front Range is experiencing. I go through the Grand Valley about two dozen times a year and I swear I see worse traffic every time I'm there. It is a bit of a mystery since I don't see where all of the new houses are located. Where are all of those new people living?

    Get ready. It is like boiling a frog. One day it is going to take two cycles to get through lights. You'll be pissed, then you'll get used to it. A few years later it will take three cycles. Eventually, you start adjusting everything you do to avoid traffic. Then you start looking to move somewhere else.

    It only took about 10 years for this transition in some parts of the Denver area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Access to skiing is yet another reason the GJ area will see massive growth in the future, It is going to have the exact same traffic issues the Front Range is experiencing. I go through the Grand Valley about two dozen times a year and I swear I see worse traffic every time I'm there. It is a bit of a mystery since I don't see where all of the new houses are located. Where are all of those new people living?

    Get ready. It is like boiling a frog. One day it is going to take two cycles to get through lights. You'll be pissed, then you'll get used to it. A few years later it will take three cycles. Eventually, you start adjusting everything you do to avoid traffic. Then you start looking to move somewhere else.

    It only took about 10 years for this transition in some parts of the Denver area.

    Grand Junction Metro = 200,000 (maybe)
    Denver Metro = 3,000,000

    If a few traffic light cycles is bothersome, I'm not sure what to say.

    In no way will Grand Junction ever have the I-25/I-70/I-76/C-470 [email protected]& in our lifetime. Just not enough peaches for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Grand Junction Metro = 200,000 (maybe)
    Denver Metro = 3,000,000

    If a few traffic light cycles is bothersome, I'm not sure what to say.

    In no way will Grand Junction ever have the I-25/I-70/I-76/C-470 [email protected]& in our lifetime. Just not enough peaches for everyone.
    You apparently have never lived where there is a traffic light every 1/4 mile, two or three cycles for every light, and you can't even make a right turn because you can't make it to the right turn lane. Try Boulder at rush hour some day. Believe me, living in a place like that sucks. A lot of people deal with that reality in the Denver area now.

    You can hope, but there are many precedents for areas the size of Grand Junction blowing up and becoming unbearable in the span of a few decades.

    Look at Orange County, Florida, or Orange County, California. Tuscon went from 220K to 500K in 25 years.

    In 1970, the Colorado Springs metro area was about the same size as Grand Junction is today. Now it is 720,000 or so. I'm sure a lot of people in the Springs in 1970 thought the traffic would "never be as bad as Denver", but CO Springs today is far worse than Denver was in the 70's, 80's or 90's.
    https://gazette.com/news/census-el-p...02c62f7f9.html

    I can easily see the population of Mesa County doubling by 2050, if enough water can be found. I don't see any significant infrastructure builds though, because Colorado. The state is so far behind already, that unless there are massive tax increases, the infrastructure will never match the population growth in any part of the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    You apparently have never lived where there is a traffic light every 1/4 mile, two or three cycles for every light, and you can't even make a right turn because you can't make it to the right turn lane. Try Boulder at rush hour some day. Believe me, living in a place like that sucks. A lot of people deal with that reality in the Denver area now.
    LOL, I've lived in Philadelphia, Newark (NJ), Arlington VA (DC), Charlotte, and Atlanta. I pulled the plug when I lived in Atlanta and headed west. These are actual cities, and no traffic in the world is worse than DC (OK, maybe Jakarta, Indonesia). 59% of the USA population lived within a 500 miles radius of Philly at one point. Sleepy little Denver/Front Range pales in comparison dude. Just be fortunate we have mountains and low humidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    LOL, I've lived in Philadelphia, Newark (NJ), Arlington VA (DC), Charlotte, and Atlanta. I pulled the plug when I lived in Atlanta and headed west. These are actual cities, and no traffic in the world is worse than DC (OK, maybe Jakarta, Indonesia). 59% of the USA population lived within a 500 miles radius of Philly at one point. Sleepy little Denver/Front Range pales in comparison dude. Just be fortunate we have mountains and low humidity.

    I just moved to Denver metro from Atlanta and had lived on the east coast my whole life. The traffic here is minimal compared to Atlanta. Atlanta has pockets of traffic all day every day, even on late nights and weekends, and the roads there are awful. Denver metro has a wonderful grid system with wider roads and nice medians. Do you know how many times I would go biking on a Saturday morning in Atlanta at 8:30 am, only to be greeted by bumper to bumper traffic on the highways? I haven't experienced any of that in Colorado, though I understand that I-70 will have traffic during the winter, but I will be sticking to front range trails at that point anyways. I can only imagine the horror of attempting to drive in cities like NYC or DC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoaD009 View Post
    I just moved to Denver metro from Atlanta and had lived on the east coast my whole life. The traffic here is minimal compared to Atlanta. Atlanta has pockets of traffic all day every day, even on late nights and weekends, and the roads there are awful. Denver metro has a wonderful grid system with wider roads and nice medians. Do you know how many times I would go biking on a Saturday morning in Atlanta at 8:30 am, only to be greeted by bumper to bumper traffic on the highways? I haven't experienced any of that in Colorado, though I understand that I-70 will have traffic during the winter, but I will be sticking to front range trails at that point anyways. I can only imagine the horror of attempting to drive in cities like NYC or DC.
    Apparently you haven't tried to get to the mountains on I-70 on a weekend, ever. Summer traffic is consistently busier than winter now. It is bad enough now that unless you are in Idaho Springs westbound before 7:30AM, Summer or Winter, you will be in bumper to bumper traffic for at least an hour. Coming home on a Sunday, if you aren't through the Johnson Tunnel eastbound by 12:30PM at the latest, you will also be in bumper to bumper traffic for at least an hour, and I even hit that at noon several times. A new thing has started happening just this year. I personally witnessed bumper to bumper, 5 MPH traffic in *both* directions between Georgetown and the tunnels at around 12:30 PM, several times. There were people heading eastbound trying to get down before the traffic got really bad, and people going *up* to the mountains late trying to avoid the morning traffic getting up there. They both failed, simultaneously. The westbound jams now last from 7:30 to 2:00ish and eastbound from 12:30 to 8:30ish.

    https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...ened-this-year

    Tell you what. Head up to Summit County on I-70 around 8:30 AM this weekend and get back to us on how well that works out for you. And this is one of the lower months.

    The very peak average month in 2011 was July with 1.1 Million cars through the tunnels. In 2019, it is expected that traffic will be that high or higher eight months of the year. I can't imagine what it will look like eight years from now. I-70 also feeds the traffic onto US40 at Empire heading toward Grand County, so that traffic isn't even included in the counts at the tunnels. A critical mass is being reached, and it is almost impossible to make a trip to the mountains now without being delayed by a crash/rockslide/snowslide/flood/sinkhole/fire/plane crash/wind storm/bridge failure/items falling off of truck/general stupidity. I've been delayed by all of these and more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Apparently you haven't tried to get to the mountains on I-70 on a weekend, ever. Summer traffic is consistently busier than winter now. It is bad enough now that unless you are in Idaho Springs westbound before 7:30AM, Summer or Winter, you will be in bumper to bumper traffic for at least an hour. Coming home on a Sunday, if you aren't through the Johnson Tunnel eastbound by 12:30PM at the latest, you will also be in bumper to bumper traffic for at least an hour, and I even hit that at noon several times. A new thing has started happening just this year. I personally witnessed bumper to bumper, 5 MPH traffic in *both* directions between Georgetown and the tunnels at around 12:30 PM, several times. There were people heading eastbound trying to get down before the traffic got really bad, and people going *up* to the mountains late trying to avoid the morning traffic getting up there. They both failed, simultaneously. The westbound jams now last from 7:30 to 2:00ish and eastbound from 12:30 to 8:30ish.

    https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...ened-this-year

    Tell you what. Head up to Summit County on I-70 around 8:30 AM this weekend and get back to us on how well that works out for you. And this is one of the lower months.

    The very peak average month in 2011 was July with 1.1 Million cars through the tunnels. In 2019, it is expected that traffic will be that high or higher eight months of the year. I can't imagine what it will look like eight years from now. I-70 also feeds the traffic onto US40 at Empire heading toward Grand County, so that traffic isn't even included in the counts at the tunnels. A critical mass is being reached, and it is almost impossible to make a trip to the mountains now without being delayed by a crash/rockslide/snowslide/flood/sinkhole/fire/plane crash/wind storm/bridge failure/items falling off of truck/general stupidity. I've been delayed by all of these and more.
    I'll gladly take traffic on a highway in the mountains away from my home versus what I was used to in Atlanta where I couldn't leave my apartment because a 5 mile commute would take an hour.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    <snip>

    Tell you what. Head up to Summit County on I-70 around 8:30 AM this weekend and get back to us on how well that works out for you. And this is one of the lower months.
    Just for the record - I drove up to Copper *last* Saturday around 7:30 a.m. - there was no traffic to speak of. 1h15m from SW Littleton to Copper.

    We did hit the semi-fire on the way home... which slowed things down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoaD009 View Post
    I'll gladly take traffic on a highway in the mountains away from my home versus what I was used to in Atlanta where I couldn't leave my apartment because a 5 mile commute would take an hour.
    Like I said, get back to us after you've driven it a lot. Especially if it happens to snow while you are in Summit County. 3-4 hours to get the 60 miles back to Denver.

    The averages don't really tell the entire story. If I-70 is closed in certain places, there is no reasonable detour, you have to just sit. For example, let's say you go to Aspen for a weekend of skiing and there is a rockslide in Glenwood Canyon. It is literally an additional 3-5 hour detour to get back to Denver, because you would have to go back to Rifle, up to US40, and back over Berthoud Pass, or take McClure Pass to Delta and then south on US50 and back east. Do you start on the detour, or wait, hoping the highway reopens? That canyon has been closed for days several times in the past few years, but you never know. Loveland Pass closes quite often, and when it closes and there is a f*&^k up between Silverthorne and the tunnel, you might as well scramble for a hotel room.

    https://www.elevationoutdoors.com/sn...er-gets-worse/

    https://www.5280.com/2017/03/can-i-7...ever-be-fixed/

    https://www.coloradopolitics.com/new...7cc9fbcfd.html

    https://durangoherald.com/articles/105491

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    I used to drive I-70 between Denver and Junction constantly for work. I never thought it was bad unless you hit it in the morning when everyone was going skiing or headed back at the end of the day. It seems like the worst accidents were always between Vail and Copper, at least the ones that closed off an entire direction. I-70 from Denver to Glenwood is just gnarly terrain in the winter, so accidents are numerous and usually pretty bad.

    The trick to living in Denver is to have days off that do not fall on the weekend so you are not driving into the mountains on the weekend and coming back with everyone else. I feel like at least in Colorado, there are so many places to go in the mountains that people are fairly spread out. The Wasatch Front has half the people, but the adjacent mountains are a total circus during the weekends. Just not enough outdoors to spread everyone out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoaD009 View Post
    I just moved to Denver metro from Atlanta and had lived on the east coast my whole life. The traffic here is minimal compared to Atlanta. Atlanta has pockets of traffic all day every day, even on late nights and weekends, and the roads there are awful. Denver metro has a wonderful grid system with wider roads and nice medians. Do you know how many times I would go biking on a Saturday morning in Atlanta at 8:30 am, only to be greeted by bumper to bumper traffic on the highways? I haven't experienced any of that in Colorado, though I understand that I-70 will have traffic during the winter, but I will be sticking to front range trails at that point anyways. I can only imagine the horror of attempting to drive in cities like NYC or DC.

    I moved to Denver from Atlanta in 1999, and it would take me 2+ hours to make it from the northern perimeter to Bull Mountain to ride on the weekends. GA 400 was bad then. I laugh at the people who think Denver metro traffic is bad compared to other cities or complain of a few light cycles. My sister is in San Francisco, and it takes her 5-6 hours to get to the Tahoe area ski areas on weekends now (5 and 6 lanes of traffic moving through Sacramento even) during the winter months, you can make it in under 3 when there is no traffic, which is pretty much never. I drove from visiting her back to CO and I went 30mph from Fairfield to Sacramento...on a WEDNDESDAY at 10am heading east.

    lol..but little 200K metro Grand Junction is getting bad...real bad...(in my best Eeyore voice). Wyoming is pretty desolate still, not much traffic and the riding is pretty amazing. Low taxes for retirees and for setting up a business too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I used to drive I-70 between Denver and Junction constantly for work. I never thought it was bad unless you hit it in the morning when everyone was going skiing or headed back at the end of the day. It seems like the worst accidents were always between Vail and Copper, at least the ones that closed off an entire direction. I-70 from Denver to Glenwood is just gnarly terrain in the winter, so accidents are numerous and usually pretty bad.

    The trick to living in Denver is to have days off that do not fall on the weekend so you are not driving into the mountains on the weekend and coming back with everyone else. I feel like at least in Colorado, there are so many places to go in the mountains that people are fairly spread out. The Wasatch Front has half the people, but the adjacent mountains are a total circus during the weekends. Just not enough outdoors to spread everyone out.
    That's the thing, if you are doing the rat race and riding after work or on weekends, and driving to the mountains during the weekend then yeah, it's going to take you longer. Luckily we can now be selective of when/where we work. I now work weekends and ride my bike and ski when everyone else is grinding the 9-5 during the week.

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    While were complaining about Denver traffic or putting it in perspective, letís also talk about how ridiculous Summit county is. My GF convinced me to buy an Epic Pass last season because her family owns a place up in Summit County. Being in Durango, Silverton Mtn, Purgatory and Wolf Creek are my lift served haunts. I hadnít been to a Summit Co ski resort in almost 20 years. Granted, the lifts in Summit Co are modern and efficient, but holy crap are there a lot of people! Between that and the traffic, honestly, if I had to move to Denver, I think Iíd just quit snowboarding as itís not worth the hassle. The aftermath of A powder day in Summit Co lasts all of 40 minutes before being skies off. I donít see how anyone enjoys it and that is my favorite sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    While were complaining about Denver traffic or putting it in perspective, letís also talk about how ridiculous Summit county is. My GF convinced me to buy an Epic Pass last season because her family owns a place up in Summit County. Being in Durango, Silverton Mtn, Purgatory and Wolf Creek are my lift served haunts. I hadnít been to a Summit Co ski resort in almost 20 years. Granted, the lifts in Summit Co are modern and efficient, but holy crap are there a lot of people! Between that and the traffic, honestly, if I had to move to Denver, I think Iíd just quit snowboarding as itís not worth the hassle. The aftermath of A powder day in Summit Co lasts all of 40 minutes before being skies off. I donít see how anyone enjoys it and that is my favorite sport.
    I've always had to be a Front Range weekend warrior. Until about 2010 I was getting in 20-35 days a year. Then the traffic started to ramp up so I switched to Eldora for a few years. Now Eldora is a complete clusterf*&ck, so my last four years I've done 6 days, 4 days, 3 days, and last year, one day. This year, I'm hanging up the boards.

    Fruita doesn't come to mind as a skier's paradise, but you can much more easily get in ski days from Fruita than you can from Denver. On a weekend, you can get to/from Telluride or Snowmass from Fruita faster than you can get to/from Vail from Denver. Powderhorn is a great place when they have snow, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    That's the thing, if you are doing the rat race and riding after work or on weekends, and driving to the mountains during the weekend then yeah, it's going to take you longer. Luckily we can now be selective of when/where we work. I now work weekends and ride my bike and ski when everyone else is grinding the 9-5 during the week.
    Yeah every time I tell an employer that I want to work weekends and have weekdays off they trip over themselves in excitement. 99 out of 100 people want weekends off with everyone else and I seriously do not understand it at all unless you have kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    While were complaining about Denver traffic or putting it in perspective, letís also talk about how ridiculous Summit county is. My GF convinced me to buy an Epic Pass last season because her family owns a place up in Summit County. Being in Durango, Silverton Mtn, Purgatory and Wolf Creek are my lift served haunts. I hadnít been to a Summit Co ski resort in almost 20 years. Granted, the lifts in Summit Co are modern and efficient, but holy crap are there a lot of people! Between that and the traffic, honestly, if I had to move to Denver, I think Iíd just quit snowboarding as itís not worth the hassle. The aftermath of A powder day in Summit Co lasts all of 40 minutes before being skies off. I donít see how anyone enjoys it and that is my favorite sport.
    I believe that Vail and Breck both receive the highest skier visits of any resort. I am like you, I like skiing so much that I got back into the ski industry and I still don't understand or see the appeal of these crowded resorts. It's the exact same issue in Utah now as well. Sit in traffic for hours to get 2 untracked runs. No thanks. Too bad Powderhorn doesn't do it for me. It doesn't see any crowds, but the terrain just isn't all that great IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Yeah every time I tell an employer that I want to work weekends and have weekdays off they trip over themselves in excitement. 99 out of 100 people want weekends off with everyone else and I seriously do not understand it at all unless you have kids.



    I believe that Vail and Breck both receive the highest skier visits of any resort. I am like you, I like skiing so much that I got back into the ski industry and I still don't understand or see the appeal of these crowded resorts. It's the exact same issue in Utah now as well. Sit in traffic for hours to get 2 untracked runs. No thanks. Too bad Powderhorn doesn't do it for me. It doesn't see any crowds, but the terrain just isn't all that great IMO.
    I have to think that Breck is the worst overall experience for a serious skier/rider. Mandatory paid parking, Gondolas that go sideways instead of up, not much parsing out of the advanced terrain vs intermediate terrain, even the lines for the rope tows are 15-20 minutes, not to mention the endless traversing to get around. Of the Summit Co offerings, I think that Copper and A Basin are probably the best. The more advanced terrain at Copper tends to be on a different part of the mountain than the vacation traffic. A-Basin isnít bad so long as you avoid the main lift at the base. Keystone does a decent job of moving people around, but itís a chore not to lose track of your peeps amongst the literal sea of people.

    In the SW, itís not uncommon to go out with a group of 6-8 people and have no problem staying together, but I now understand the Summit co preference for no groups larger than 4 ever. Also, Wolf Creek on a Tuesday morning and you are just looking for someone, anyone to ride the lifts with because itís lonely otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Fruita doesn't come to mind as a skier's paradise, but you can much more easily get in ski days from Fruita than you can from Denver. On a weekend, you can get to/from Telluride or Snowmass from Fruita faster than you can get to/from Vail from Denver. Powderhorn is a great place when they have snow, as well.
    Stop hyping up Fruita. It sucks and no one should move here. JK.

    But for real, my wife and I have a tendency to get own on the Grand Valley from time to time (especially when it's 100+ outside), but after visiting the Front Range this weekend we're both very stoked to live HERE. It's not perfect, but the trails are awesome, we've got a nearly paid-for home, can go to places like Moab or Crested Butte on a whim, have a bike park 45 minutes away, and now we're getting a QDOBA! Holla!

    Also, loving this no-kids lifestyle!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    <snip> The aftermath of A powder day in Summit Co lasts all of 40 minutes before being skies off. I donít see how anyone enjoys it and that is my favorite sport.
    Well, to put it bluntly, you're probably doing it wrong. Much like honkinunit is doing it wrong. NTTAWWT. Most people do it wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    <snip>

    Also, loving this no-kids lifestyle!
    Grrrr...

    Watch it, you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Well, to put it bluntly, you're probably doing it wrong. Much like honkinunit is doing it wrong. NTTAWWT. Most people do it wrong.
    Doing powder days wrong?
    Granted, I donít know the Summit Co areas anywhere near as well as I know the SW ski areas, but I understand the philosophy of how to make the most of a powder day: be there early and be on the first couple of chairs. Go straight to an area that takes awhile to get to, but pick a run or 2 off on the way there if possible. Start with the more obvious runs and pick them off until they start to show wear, move to the less popular runs, then start picking off unofficial runs and trees. Hike in terrain is next. Cornice drops ins if available. Once you have mopped that up, start looking for leftovers, generally on the far left side, but sometimes on the far right.

    That being said, in Summit Co, you just canít compete with the sheer number of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    Doing powder days wrong?
    If you're finding the powder is skied off in 40 minutes... yup. Wrong.

    Granted, I donít know the Summit Co areas anywhere near as well as I know the SW ski areas, but I understand the philosophy of how to make the most of a powder day: be there early and be on the first couple of chairs. Go straight to an area that takes awhile to get to, but pick a run or 2 off on the way there if possible. Start with the more obvious runs and pick them off until they start to show wear, move to the less popular runs, then start picking off unofficial runs and trees. Hike in terrain is next. Cornice drops ins if available. Once you have mopped that up, start looking for leftovers, generally on the far left side, but sometimes on the far right.

    That being said, in Summit Co, you just canít compete with the sheer number of people.
    You should get to know the areas better. Oh - and avoid Breck. That's probably the main "doing it wrong" part.

    Also - don't try to compare skiing in the SW with Summit... it'll just cause you angst when you're in Summit.

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    Going to side with 101 on this. I am back to skiing 4-5 days a week a season and work at resorts in the summer, I figure them out pretty well. Once resorts get as crowded as Summit County and Wasatch Front resorts get, there are no secret stashes. You literally have to be able to ski outside the boundary and if the access back to the resort is easy, that stuff gets tracked up right away as well.

    I know people that claim to know secret stashes on various mountains and what they think is a secret is just a spot that you can farm 2 or 3 turns of mostly tracked up chop. That is in no way my definition of untracked.

    I just spent an awesome year at Sun Valley, Id where there is literally not ever a lift line. I don't even know how the resort makes money, it probably does not to be honest. The owner is just super wealthy. Even Sun Valley gets tracked up extremely quick for a giant mountain with hardly any skiers. The learning curve for skiing with modern equipment is so quick now that everyone can get into powder skiing extremely quickly and start farming even trees with just a couple of seasons of experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    If you're finding the powder is skied off in 40 minutes... yup. Wrong.


    You should get to know the areas better. Oh - and avoid Breck. That's probably the main "doing it wrong" part.

    Also - don't try to compare skiing in the SW with Summit... it'll just cause you angst when you're in Summit.
    I only went to Breck once this past year. because I had an Epic Pass, I figured Iíd check all of them out in a modern setting vs. 20 years ago. But, realistically, I probably wonít return. I didnít buy an Epic Pass this year because itís just much more enjoyable in the SW. if I go back up to Summit Co with my GF, Iíll either use my Purgatory Pass for 3 days at Copper or possibly flip for a day pass at A Basin if the conditions are good or for spring season, but everything is a pain in the ass and expensive up there: parking, getting around, eating out... it all sucks. Sure, itís colder up there and often tends to get more snow and/or snow more frequently depending on the weather patterns (this winter was an exception), but powder stashed in the SW are a real and actual thing.

    This pic is of the last run of the day after an overnight dump. This is ďtracked outĒ



    Saturday morning at Wolf Creek: (if you ainít getting entire features, bowls to yourself, youíre not doing it right )

    Now, whoís doing it right?


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    Well, I don't see any skis in those pictures, so I'm already finding some wrongness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    I only went to Breck once this past year. because I had an Epic Pass, I figured Iíd check all of them out in a modern setting vs. 20 years ago. But, realistically, I probably wonít return. I didnít buy an Epic Pass this year because itís just much more enjoyable in the SW. if I go back up to Summit Co with my GF, Iíll either use my Purgatory Pass for 3 days at Copper or possibly flip for a day pass at A Basin if the conditions are good or for spring season, but everything is a pain in the ass and expensive up there: parking, getting around, eating out... it all sucks. Sure, itís colder up there and often tends to get more snow and/or snow more frequently depending on the weather patterns (this winter was an exception), but powder stashed in the SW are a real and actual thing.

    This pic is of the last run of the day after an overnight dump. This is ďtracked outĒ



    Saturday morning at Wolf Creek: (if you ainít getting entire features, bowls to yourself, youíre not doing it right )

    Now, whoís doing it right?

    No... you were doing it wrong in Summit. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing in the SW. Stashes exist in Summit LONG past your 40 minute mark, but they are around for a MUCH shorter time than in the SW. I mean - you're talking several orders of MAGNITUDE more people up here.

    But you gotta know what you're doing. And a day or two at a Summit County resort ain't gonna do it. And, to your point, the powder hangs around for a shorter time every year.

    But you can't spend all your time whining like a big baby, like honkinunit does, 'cause at the end of the day, it's mostly in how you choose to view things. And if you view things through the lens of "how it used to be" you're likely to be all bitter and curmudgeonly, like honkinunit. But at the end of the day, skiing around here is pretty cool and a lot of fun, and sometimes you gotta deal with some shit you might not want to deal with (traffic).

    But all in all, it's a whole lotta 1stWorldProblems, and should be viewed as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Going to side with 101 on this. I am back to skiing 4-5 days a week a season and work at resorts in the summer, I figure them out pretty well. Once resorts get as crowded as Summit County and Wasatch Front resorts get, there are no secret stashes.
    This is nonsense. And no, I'm not going to tell anyone where they are.

    I know people that claim to know secret stashes on various mountains and what they think is a secret is just a spot that you can farm 2 or 3 turns of mostly tracked up chop. That is in no way my definition of untracked.
    Nice thing about facts, it doesn't really matter if you *believe* them or not. They are still facts. Then again, if I cross a few tracks, I'm not going to be THAT guy that complains about it.

    <snip>The learning curve for skiing with modern equipment is so quick now that everyone can get into powder skiing extremely quickly and start farming even trees with just a couple of seasons of experience.
    Sounds like we should get off your lawn, eh? NTTAWWT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    No... you were doing it wrong in Summit. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing in the SW. Stashes exist in Summit LONG past your 40 minute mark, but they are around for a MUCH shorter time than in the SW. I mean - you're talking several orders of MAGNITUDE more people up here.

    But you gotta know what you're doing. And a day or two at a Summit County resort ain't gonna do it. And, to your point, the powder hangs around for a shorter time every year.

    But you can't spend all your time whining like a big baby, like honkinunit does, 'cause at the end of the day, it's mostly in how you choose to view things. And if you view things through the lens of "how it used to be" you're likely to be all bitter and curmudgeonly, like honkinunit. But at the end of the day, skiing around here is pretty cool and a lot of fun, and sometimes you gotta deal with some shit you might not want to deal with (traffic).

    But all in all, it's a whole lotta 1stWorldProblems, and should be viewed as such.
    So much of it is what youíre adapted to. Summit Co is much more of a ďcityĒ mentality where there are so many people that you just have to ignore everyone else and focus on your self. Having spent some time riding the CO Trail, for example, in the San Juans I often get hung up in 15-20 minute long conversations with strangers I encounter along the way. Ride up or down the Copper Mtn section of the trail and people avoid eye contact with one another. Iím sure if youíre used to it, it not near as bad, but itís hard to imagine being in such state mentally while living in the state of Colorado that you approach ski resorting with the mentality of a commuting New Yorker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    So much of it is what youíre adapted to. Summit Co is much more of a ďcityĒ mentality where there are so many people that you just have to ignore everyone else and focus on your self. Having spent some time riding the CO Trail, for example, in the San Juans I often get hung up in 15-20 minute long conversations with strangers I encounter along the way. Ride up or down the Copper Mtn section of the trail and people avoid eye contact with one another. Iím sure if youíre used to it, it not near as bad, but itís hard to imagine being in such state mentally while living in the state of Colorado that you approach ski resorting with the mentality of a commuting New Yorker.
    Like I said - it's mostly in your point of view (apdapted to). And I won't argue with you over the details. But take solace in the fact that you can ride around here and have a similar experience... maybe you won't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    As far as the commuting New Yorker comment - I'm not sure what you even mean... but I skied 30 days last season (not all in CO) and had a good time EVERY time I went, as far as I recall. Even had quite a few legit powder days.

    But, hey... if you don't like it (Summit) and don't want to... don't do it. I'm just here to say it's not as horrific as *some* folks would make it seem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    This is nonsense. And no, I'm not going to tell anyone where they are.


    Nice thing about facts, it doesn't really matter if you *believe* them or not. They are still facts. Then again, if I cross a few tracks, I'm not going to be THAT guy that complains about it.


    Sounds like we should get off your lawn, eh? NTTAWWT.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The crowd difference I see from 15 years ago to now is absolutely insane. I groom the shit out every night back then and doing it again now and it is a completely different world with the huge increase in skier traffic. We are having to purchase more winch cats and winch runs that used to be done with a free cat because the traffic is creating huge moguls. This is Wasatch Front resorts. The Front Range resorts see way bigger crowds, but you seem to be more knowledgeable about the industry than I do. You skied 30 days last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Like I said - it's mostly in your point of view (apdapted to). And I won't argue with you over the details. But take solace in the fact that you can ride around here and have a similar experience... maybe you won't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    As far as the commuting New Yorker comment - I'm not sure what you even mean... but I skied 30 days last season (not all in CO) and had a good time EVERY time I went, as far as I recall. Even had quite a few legit powder days.

    But, hey... if you don't like it (Summit) and don't want to... don't do it. I'm just here to say it's not as horrific as *some* folks would make it seem.

    From your comments, I am absolutely sure I have 15 or 20 years on you, SkaredShltes.

    The older I get, the more I am absolutely certain that life is too short to put up with the bullshit you have to put up with to ski in Summit County, or at Winter Park or Eldora on weekends or anytime within a week of a holiday. Thankfully, when I was your age, I didn't have to. Six hours of driving to ski five hours, and two of those hours are spent standing in lift lines? Seriously?

    I have friends and relatives in large cities and places like Silicon Valley who have had to plan their lives around traffic patterns on the roads for years. It sucks, they all freely admit it, and nearly every one of them would leave for somewhere else if they were not trapped economically. Denver and Boulder are just reaching that point. F*&^ck that. It is no way to live.

    I'm also not going to plan my life around traffic patterns on MTB trails, ski runs, fishing holes, hiking trails, or anything else. I'll suffer a few more years here for financial reasons, and then I'll move to somewhere rational and reasonable. I sincerely hope the rest of you can "just deal with it" and stay blissfully on the Front Range, and I am thankful that you like it. THANK YOU! Please stay here. Forever.

    Fruita would work for another ten years or so, but I hope to be actively retired for more like 20 years. I don't want to be in another place where the hordes descend and ruin everything, and unfortunately, I think that is going to happen in the Grand Valley before I expire. Then it will be tossed on the ruined pile with the Front Range, Colorado Springs, Summit County, Eagle County, Pitkin County, Moab, Flagstaff, Tuscon, most of California.....


    Choose wisely, by the time you start seeing articles like these, it is too late:

    https://www.5280.com/2019/01/is-over...ado-ski-areas/

    https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...-grand-canyon/

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/tourist...ab-11568638923

    https://theknow.denverpost.com/2019/...-aspen/222141/

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    From your comments, I am absolutely sure I have 15 or 20 years on you, SkaredShltes.
    Why? 'Cause you're being a whiny old curmudgeon? For the record - I'll be 49 next spring. So... maybe you're even older than I thought?

    The rest is kind of your regular, tired, old whining. Why are you not gone yet, again? What's keeping you in your little self-imposed hell? You're CHOOSING to live in a hell of your own design. YOU NEED TO GTFO.

    I, have shaped my life such that I don't have to "plan my life around traffic" - it works for me.

    It really sounds like your only option is to leave. Sooner rather than later. This sort of angst has GOT to be shortening your life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The crowd difference I see from 15 years ago to now is absolutely insane. I groom the shit out every night back then and doing it again now and it is a completely different world with the huge increase in skier traffic. We are having to purchase more winch cats and winch runs that used to be done with a free cat because the traffic is creating huge moguls. This is Wasatch Front resorts. The Front Range resorts see way bigger crowds, but you seem to be more knowledgeable about the industry than I do. You skied 30 days last year.
    <shrug> A bunch of my days last season were on the Wasatch Front. They were great days, too. We *did* have to abandon plans on one weekend day to ski Alta-Bird to head to Solitude due to a LCC shitshow. Did a day at Snowbasin as well.

    Of course everything is more crowded than 15 years ago. You can either let it break you, or figure out to continue to enjoy life and the things you like to do. Of course it's different than it was. The only constant in this life is change. You can either grow old and bitter about it, or figure out how to make it work for you.

    This probably doesn't really belong in the Western Slope forum, as you lucky bastids don't have to deal with some of this stuff.

    But mark my words, there are "old-time" people in Montrose/Grand Junction/etc. that are bitching about the SAME shit that honkinunit is complaining about... and from their point of view, it's probably somewhat valid. But in the end, it's all just a point of view and that stems from how you adapt to change.

    And you can either be the happy person, or you can be the old guy yelling at clouds. It's a choice. Choose wisely...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Like I said - it's mostly in your point of view (apdapted to). And I won't argue with you over the details. But take solace in the fact that you can ride around here and have a similar experience... maybe you won't, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    As far as the commuting New Yorker comment - I'm not sure what you even mean... but I skied 30 days last season (not all in CO) and had a good time EVERY time I went, as far as I recall. Even had quite a few legit powder days.

    But, hey... if you don't like it (Summit) and don't want to... don't do it. I'm just here to say it's not as horrific as *some* folks would make it seem.
    I got over 60 days last season, lost track of how many powder days, but Iíd wager close over 20. I do have a full time, professional job (and it does have a powder day clause which was exercised considerably last season), but hard to imagine getting that living in Denver and commuting to Summit Co. I can ride Purgatory from 9 until noon (keeping an eye on my email) and show up to the office in Durango with a shower by 1:00 if I hustle. I am told that there was a time when one could do that from Denver to Keystone, but Iíd call bullshit on anyone regularly claiming a half day in Summit Co out of Denver these days and showing up to work after lunch hour. Granted, if I lived in Denver, Iíd probably make 25-30k more than I do here with roughly the same cost of living so thereís that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    I got over 60 days last season, lost track of how many powder days, but Iíd wager close over 20. I do have a full time, professional job (and it does have a powder day clause which was exercised considerably last season), but hard to imagine getting that living in Denver and commuting to Summit Co. I can ride Purgatory from 9 until noon (keeping an eye on my email) and show up to the office in Durango with a shower by 1:00 if I hustle. I am told that there was a time when one could do that from Denver to Keystone, but Iíd call bullshit on anyone regularly claiming a half day in Summit Co out of Denver these days and showing up to work after lunch hour.
    You gotta make it such that you don't have to "show up" for work. You head up, get your pow-morning, and then work from wherever... like the coffee shop at the base of the resort.

    And don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting ANYONE give up their life in Durango to move to the Front Range for the skiing. That would be stupid. But the Front Range isn't as bad as some people are trying very hard to make it - it's PRECISELY why it's getting as busy as it is - it's a desirable location. And yes, I've lived here for over 25 years, so I've lived the change.

    Granted, if I lived in Denver, Iíd probably make 25-30k more than I do here with roughly the same cost of living so thereís that.
    There's always a gotcha... somewhere. TBH, living in Durango would be worth a $25K cut in pay. Maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    Wellll...


    2. Salt Lake City - I know!!!! Big younger demographic. Big university. The Mormons are respectful and donít shove their beliefs down your throat but of course they are the dominant political force.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Have you ever lived there? Wasn't my experience by a long shot.....it was constant on the news, coming to your door, on and on. Maybe it isn't as bad now.....I haven't lived there in 14 years. Bottom line is we moved to Colorado because of it. Did Utah for 10 years....many great things about the SLC valley but there are negatives as well. Utah is a weird place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post

    Also, loving this no-kids lifestyle!
    Nice! My wife and I are also part of the DINK lifestyle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Have you ever lived there? Wasn't my experience by a long shot.....it was constant on the news, coming to your door, on and on. Maybe it isn't as bad now.....I haven't lived there in 14 years. Bottom line is we moved to Colorado because of it. Did Utah for 10 years....many great things about the SLC valley but there are negatives as well. Utah is a weird place.
    I left Utah for 14 years and went back 2 years ago. It has become worse than you can possibly imagine. The crowds and pollution are unreal. Now when you go to the Uintas, the pollution socks in every nook and cranny. Southern Utah is being loved to death. All the resorts along the Wasatch Front are so crowded that it is a totally different ballgame when you ski them now. Even Snowbasin is getting crowded. I would not even think of going into LCC or BCC on a powder day. The last couple of years people have waited in 3 hour traffic jams only to be turned away from the resort due to lack of parking.

    Utah is just embarrassing. They are letting the Great Salt Lake dry up and the politicians are not only doing absolutely nothing about it, they plan on building a massive inland port that will just bring even more polluting industry to the area that will also suck that lake even more dry. Antelope Island is no longer an island anymore! The dry lake bed dust gets picked up by the wind and adds to the pollution and deposits in the mountains which also melts the snow much faster.

    I still am probably going to spend winters there since I love my job at one specific resort I work at, but will be heading to Colorado as soon as the resort is closed. As far as the skiing though, it is so crowded now that I honestly just work at the ski resort because I enjoy the job so much, more than the skiing at this point.

    But like SkaredShtles is saying, you kind of have to get used to all this bullshit. My time in Idaho taught me that I could have a winter without people crawling everywhere, but then in the summers the Sawtooths are massively packed and when you backpack you are dodging human waste among all the campsites that you have to arrive early to get. Not sure if it is most an increase in population, an increase in people recreating outdoors, or both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    <snip>
    But like SkaredShtles is saying, you kind of have to get used to all this bullshit. My time in Idaho taught me that I could have a winter without people crawling everywhere, but then in the summers the Sawtooths are massively packed and when you backpack you are dodging human waste among all the campsites that you have to arrive early to get. Not sure if it is most an increase in population, an increase in people recreating outdoors, or both.
    Both for sure.

    But, rest assured, there are still places in the mountains to get away from it all. They just aren't published publicly anywhere. And, hopefully, never will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Both for sure.

    But, rest assured, there are still places in the mountains to get away from it all. They just aren't published publicly anywhere. And, hopefully, never will be.
    True, but even those areas are starting to disappear or see use from people who have no idea what LNT is. The Wind Rivers used to be our go to place to for off the trail lakes and well, now it's the go to place for a ton of people with that same idea in mind. For some reason though, I feel like the western states I have lived in, Utah, Colorado, California, Idaho, and Wyoming, Colorado seems to at least have the most respectful users and somehow I can feel like I see less people in the back country there as well.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    <snip> The Wind Rivers used to be our go to place to for off the trail lakes and well,
    lol - the Winds haven't been that since the 80's...

    <snip> Colorado seems to at least have the most respectful users and somehow I can feel like I see less people in the back country there as well
    Probably due to the massive number of miles of trail... as well as the "sacrificial" 14'ers. I'd wager those suck in so many people that the other places end up kinda quiet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    lol - the Winds haven't been that since the 80's...
    You definitely have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to skier numbers and the Winds.

    So there's multiple entrances into the Winds. There's one entire side that has seen regular traffic, but another that used to see almost no traffic. The main trail in was used by outfitters and went to 3 different lake systems leaving huge swaths of Wilderness untouched. The trails leading into other drainages from there would be so overgrown that you had to have topos to stay with the trail. Now the trails are all beat in and connect each side of the Winds. I'm still reluctant to even name this entrance as it has some of the most amazing lakes and scenery around and there aren't cities of campers around every lake like has happened on other sides because people like you haven't figured things out yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    <snip> I'm still reluctant to even name this entrance
    Don't.

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    I am seeing lots of talking about cities and traffic. I hate cities mainly because of traffic, hence why I included I am not interested in living in a city. I would not consider living any closer than 10-15 miles from MOST cities. Lots of talk of skiing too. I like skiing (was an instructor for 3 seasons), but not enough for it to factor in to where I live.

    For the time being we are locked into Fruita for awhile because we own the home that can only be described as "A Nightmare on Elm St." Yes, it is on Elm St (fantastic location) - which is really the only upside besides the successful AirBnB covering the mortgage. Maybe there isn't greener grass, but I still think there probably is.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Also, loving this no-kids lifestyle!
    Rubbing dirt in the wounds with the no-kids lifestyle comment. I see you are, or at least claim to be, a guidance counselor, maybe I should come see you for some guidance.

    Q'Doba sucks though - a Chipotle in Fruita would certainly shift my perspective a whole lot more.

  83. #83
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    You have it all wrong. Q'Doba actually has flavor. Chipotle is bland. I am amazed Chipotle did not go under selling bland food that was giving everyone the super shits.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    You have it all wrong. Q'Doba actually has flavor. Chipotle is bland. I am amazed Chipotle did not go under selling bland food that was giving everyone the super shits.
    That Chipotle comment is pretty funny. My wife is not a huge fan of any kind of spicy foods, but just this afternoon she commented on how the past few times she ate at Chipotle it was terribly bland, and that she liked Qdoba better. Chipotle is now a conglomerate-owned thing again, and they probably ran a taste test in Peoria, IL that advised them to remove all semblance of spices from their food.

    As long as we are talking Fruita food choices, if you like Americanized Chinese food, there is a place just south of I-70, near Taco Bell, that is honestly very good. Totally worth hitting if you like the standard Happy Family/Cashew Chicken/Sweet and Sour menu. Get eggrolls and some of the spicy yellow mustard. Clears the sinuses, for sure. Reasonably priced. Something Dragon or Dragon something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Have you ever lived there? Wasn't my experience by a long shot.....it was constant on the news, coming to your door, on and on. Maybe it isn't as bad now.....I haven't lived there in 14 years. Bottom line is we moved to Colorado because of it. Did Utah for 10 years....many great things about the SLC valley but there are negatives as well. Utah is a weird place.
    We're looking at UT and the Mormon thing doesn't bother me since I cyber-commute, home-school, and make my own beer. The air quality and inversions however is our biggest concern.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I left Utah for 14 years and went back 2 years ago. It has become worse than you can possibly imagine. The crowds and pollution are unreal. Now when you go to the Uintas, the pollution socks in every nook and cranny. Southern Utah is being loved to death. All the resorts along the Wasatch Front are so crowded that it is a totally different ballgame when you ski them now. Even Snowbasin is getting crowded. I would not even think of going into LCC or BCC on a powder day. The last couple of years people have waited in 3 hour traffic jams only to be turned away from the resort due to lack of parking.

    Utah is just embarrassing. They are letting the Great Salt Lake dry up and the politicians are not only doing absolutely nothing about it, they plan on building a massive inland port that will just bring even more polluting industry to the area that will also suck that lake even more dry. Antelope Island is no longer an island anymore! The dry lake bed dust gets picked up by the wind and adds to the pollution and deposits in the mountains which also melts the snow much faster.

    I still am probably going to spend winters there since I love my job at one specific resort I work at, but will be heading to Colorado as soon as the resort is closed. As far as the skiing though, it is so crowded now that I honestly just work at the ski resort because I enjoy the job so much, more than the skiing at this point.

    But like SkaredShtles is saying, you kind of have to get used to all this bullshit. My time in Idaho taught me that I could have a winter without people crawling everywhere, but then in the summers the Sawtooths are massively packed and when you backpack you are dodging human waste among all the campsites that you have to arrive early to get. Not sure if it is most an increase in population, an increase in people recreating outdoors, or both.
    This lines up with what all my friends who still live there say. I go there a good amount for work travel and to ski. When we go to ski we stay up at Alta....the SLC valley is lame. The pollution was horrible when I lived there so can't imagine what it is like now. I have a couple friends who have developed asthma as mid 40 year old adults....never been smokers.

    And yes the state politics run by the LDS church doesn't care about any of it. The only thing I miss about living there is skiing in Little Cottonwood. We have no regrets about moving to Golden.

  87. #87
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    Yeah they just build homes anywhere they can without any planning for the future. It was really sad to come back after all those years and see homes built all over every hillside they can and filling every nook and cranny with development. You just don't see the same thing on the Front Range and when they do slow hillside development, it's much less dense.

    I used to love going to LCC and hiking around there. I even lived at Alta for a bit. Used to hardly see anyone in the summer. Now the mountain is packed they have to run shuttles because all the vehicles are creating dust storms and widening the off road areas into highways. They are thinking about charging a toll for the Cottonwoods because it's just so crowded now and they have no idea how else to curb the crowds and destruction.

  88. #88
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    I am going to resurrect this thread with some bitching. I moved back to Utah again for the winter season for skiing again. I knew it was going to be crowded, but the Icon and Epic passes have absolutely destroyed resorts with crowds like I have never seen before. I am on the PC side and we didn't really get more than two just okay powder days while the season was going while the Cottonwoods had an epic snow year, but the crowds were still absolutely insane. I was operating cats again and I've never seen a year with so little snow let the mountains get so torn up. Usually that kind of hard pack stays put on the slopes, but the crowds scrapped it to the ground all season long.

    I know the Cottonwoods actually had days that people didn't realize the upper reaches had a good dump on weekdays, but still overall, there were just more shitshows of cars. Of course the skiers counts are soaring higher and higher each season. Resorts with caps just raise the cap each season.

    Well, I really missed good old Sun Valley and it is so remote that I don't see it turning into a circus anytime soon, so not really afraid to mention it. It just has the problem of not getting much snow on a lot of years, but at this point, I will take 2 out of 5 seasons with some epic powder days over getting two runs untracked where the second has to be in the trees and the trees are getting moguls in them by the end of the day. I will still say, the only places that look like a secret stash in the Wasatch Front are because there are rocks under the snow. Backcountry is where it is at if you live in the Wasatch at this point.

    I also did get to see numbers for Jackson Hole since they went Epic and I don't recall the year over year increase numbers, I just was floored at how high the increase was, I mean it was a jaw dropping increase. I did have friends that go there every season that said they will never go there again due to how long the lines were.

  89. #89
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    Hells bells, Iíd turn the clock back to my youth at Mt Werner if I could but that is never going to happen. It will only get more crowded.

  90. #90
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    As far as ski resorts go, I keep reading that resorts are going to see a drop in numbers due to millennials not having disposable income to do that sort of thing, but the numbers at the resorts I have worked at are going up substantially. What is crazy is I am complaining about Utah, but the Front Range resorts see over twice as many skier counts resort vs resort compared to Utah's busiest resorts and Utah has substantially more acreage open to skiers. I still don't see how anyone can claim there are secret powder staches just chilling out all day at those Front Range resorts. Vail and Breck each get 1.6 million skier visits each! Breck isn't even very big compared to most resorts. F that!

    I think these collective passes ultimately made skiing cheap enough to entice those millennials they are so worried about and the advances in gear have a substantial number of riders being at a high enough level to thrash pow no matter where it is inbounds.

    It seems your choice for living is narrowed down to either epic biking or epic skiing, but not many places left with both unless you are are willing to skin and take on back country risk.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    Hells bells, Iíd turn the clock back to my youth at Mt Werner if I could but that is never going to happen. It will only get more crowded.
    True statement, Steamboat can take the skiers, but parking and getting out of the base is problematic

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    True statement, Steamboat can take the skiers, but parking and getting out of the base is problematic
    It was a pretty awesome mtn the year 4 pts went in, just before LTV bought it and made it big.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    It was a pretty awesome mtn the year 4 pts went in, just before LTV bought it and made it big.
    That's way before my time. I had a few years inbthe 90's riding Storm with the bubbles, great snow, no Morningside so hiking to the weather station was way out there, and the snow stayed untracked till afternoon. You could find freshies on most days if you knew where to look. My best day this year was Fat Tuesday, 14 inches on the Mt, but none in town so most everyone stayed home. No lines, great snow, and hitting the same line 2-3 times just moving a little left or right to get untracked snow. Seemed like the 90's again.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    That's way before my time. I had a few years inbthe 90's riding Storm with the bubbles, great snow, no Morningside so hiking to the weather station was way out there, and the snow stayed untracked till afternoon. You could find freshies on most days if you knew where to look. My best day this year was Fat Tuesday, 14 inches on the Mt, but none in town so most everyone stayed home. No lines, great snow, and hitting the same line 2-3 times just moving a little left or right to get untracked snow. Seemed like the 90's again.
    Heh - I remember hiking up Werner with my mate and having Bill Kidd zoom by being pulled by a snowmobile for a photo shoot. That was a good day.

    Not as good as Prez Day, 2012, though.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles View Post
    Heh - I remember hiking up Werner with my mate and having Bill Kidd zoom by being pulled by a snowmobile for a photo shoot. That was a good day.

    Not as good as Prez Day, 2012, though.
    I try keep my mouth shut about great days, I've seen so much snow I'm a jaded snob. My only wish was to have had today's equipment 20 years ago, I laugh when I'm in my basement and see the 207 Tua MonetMx I skied for years such a long ski to try and turn in leather boots.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    I try keep my mouth shut about great days, I've seen so much snow I'm a jaded snob. My only wish was to have had today's equipment 20 years ago, I laugh when I'm in my basement and see the 207 Tua MonetMx I skied for years such a long ski to try and turn in leather boots.
    I think the new gear is the biggest reason why everything gets tracked out so fast. I liked it when you had to really put in the time to get the skill to ski whatever you wanted. Powder would last the entire day at most resorts I was skiing at back then.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I think the new gear is the biggest reason why everything gets tracked out so fast. I liked it when you had to really put in the time to get the skill to ski whatever you wanted. Powder would last the entire day at most resorts I was skiing at back then.
    It was even tougher with Kazama Mtn Highs and Vasque ĎTelemarkí leather boots. I miss those days.

  98. #98
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    I learned in 1990 so the gear wasn't that bad, but my gear all came from ski swaps and was usually old rental garbage in bad condition. It was all wild card gear. I would have my rear entry boot buckles randomly open or the heel or toe piece would randomly slide a few clicks back or totally fall off. Looking back I was really lucky I didn't go flying into the trees and die when this kind of thing would happen.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I learned in 1990 so the gear wasn't that bad, but my gear all came from ski swaps and was usually old rental garbage in bad condition. It was all wild card gear. I would have my rear entry boot buckles randomly open or the heel or toe piece would randomly slide a few clicks back or totally fall off. Looking back I was really lucky I didn't go flying into the trees and die when this kind of thing would happen.
    Rear-entry boots, I loved my Solomon SX91s. I forget which Solomon bindings I had, but I do NOT miss those, holy crap, It was amazing how they would pre-release at the worst possible times, but wouldn't release when they should have. Those were some kind of magic.

  100. #100
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    I've got some SX-91's in my storeroom. Red of course

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbsbiker View Post
    I've got some SX-91's in my storeroom. Red of course
    I skied in those for several years.

    SX-91 Equipe' boots, Marker MRR bindings, K2 KVC skis...

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    I'm still rocking K2 612 skies from 1984/85. I'm going to have to try out these new fangled parabolic things someday.

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    Maybe try Washington State? Bellingham? Leavenworth?

    Generally speaking more liberal than western CO. I hear there are some trails near Bellingham. Fewer trails near Leavenworth than B'ham, but the weather is better.

  104. #104
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    Boise ID, Spokane WA, Moscow ID, La Grande OR, White Salmon/Hood River, Lander WY, Laramie WY, Pocatello ID, Helena MT, Bellingham WA

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostin View Post
    Boise ID, Spokane WA, Moscow ID, La Grande OR, White Salmon/Hood River, Lander WY, Laramie WY, Pocatello ID, Helena MT, Bellingham WA
    Idaho is full, carry on....


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