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  1. #1
    MFin' Princess
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    Good job! LOTB “DEEP” Ranger Yield Sting – July 16, 2008 – Legal Update

    Everyone lucky enough to live the Front Range cherishes their access to Open Space parks, and supports JCOS responsibilities to ensure that visitors’ experiences to their parks are both harmonious and safe. However, recent Ranger Yielding Sting Operations (conducted through its Directed Education and Enforcement Program, “DEEP”) are not an effective or fair way to achieve either goal. The DEEP program was discussed at length in this thread, as well as at the September 19 Public Forum with JCOS. As described in both, the problems with the Ranger Yield stings are significant:
    • The sting operations employ tactics where Rangers intentionally stand on (or off) the edge of very wide sections of double-track, create extremely generous passing lanes and physically invite others to pass, intentionally ignore oncoming traffic and reasonable efforts to communicate, and ultimately punish bikers through law for safely and normally passing pedestrians on multi-use trails. In the end, these sting operations cite and harass reasonable and prudent riders acting in safe and practical manners; and do not target mountain bikers who act irresponsibly, putting others’ safety at risk.
    • Current policy language bizarrely state that mountain bikers must yield right-of-way without regard to either trail width or condition, yet both factors are inarguably essential to determining both when and how passage is safe.
    • The policies this program are based upon are not only poorly written and crafted, but rely upon a foundation that micromanages and targets the actions of one user group, when three must cooperate inside JCOS parks. This makes mountain bikers not simply responsible for riding safely and courteously – but also responsible for the negligence and discourteousness of all other user groups, and utimately the automatic offender in any yielding conflict in which they are present! Therefore, the enforcement of these policies, in these ways, through current language, puts mountain bike access rights in JCOS parks continually at risk; actually decreases park safety, and indeed increases conflicts for all.
    For these reasons, so many of us who received Failure to Yield tickets in sting operations this summer, (like me and four others cited in a single sting incident at Lair o’ the Bear park in an operation that was employed on July 16), welcomed our days in court. And as a mountain biker who was absolutely innocent of the charges unjustly made against me, I am very happy and relieved to report to you that after several hours in trial, the Jefferson County Court has patiently and completely heard one of our cases, found the first Defendant NOT GUILTY, and as of this morning, has DISMISSED THE CHARGES against the remaining four Defendants.

    It is indeed a good day for mountain bikers across the Front Range.

    This did not happen easily. As safe and civically responsible people we’ve been pretty successful at keeping ourselves out of the court room (until recently)! We knew very little about the legal process, and were hardly ready to navigate the mountain of procedure even an innocent person must successfully climb to ultimately prevail in court. But given the serious problems with the DEEP program, the threats it poses to our mountain bike community, as well as the concerning circumstances that existed in our case, we strongly believed that it was important enough to see through.

    Which we did. And I’m very proud to say, with vigorous and absolutely truthful testimony.

    Having completed this process are now in a position to share our learning experiences and resources with others in similar situations, who too believe their Failure to Yield ticket was unwarranted or unjust. We can describe the process, clarify the players, give solid and practical advice, show you the nuts and bolts of our case, and provide you with a kind of legal roadmap that should make the process much easier for future cases to be heard. And heard they must be. Just send me a private message and we can work out the details.

    It should now be clear to everyone that our goal in these efforts was not to win in court, dodge paying a slew of $50 tickets, or waste the Court’s precious time. Our goal was, as it remains, to improve JCOS policy.

    Instead of sting operations that micromanage and unfairly target the behaviors of just one user group when all visitors must act responsibily to create safe and harmonious park environments, we hope to see our Open Space department adopt clear and sensible policy, that promotes respect of all user groups equally, that truly embraces the spirit of multi-use – the spirit in which JCOS parks were founded – and the foundation upon which these parks must continue to thrive!

    A starting point for that long overdue discussion is shown below.

    I hope that all Front Range mountain bikers will join us in this endeavor by:
    • Joining local and national mountain bike advocacy groups, and being an active participant in their organizations,
    • Attending OSAC meetings personally as often as you can, and being a vigorous and present voice for our mountain bike community,
    • Writing and voicing your concerns, trail experiences, and suggestions directly to JCOS, and its managing committee OSAC, and not sitting back while our community’s representation is siphoned and diluted through ineffective and compromising channels of bureaucracy and red tape,
    • Fighting all unjust “DEEP” Failure to Yield Right of Way citations that you or other bikers receive, to ensure that misguided and poor policy is scrutinized, clearly understood by all responsible and managing parties, and ultimately improved for the betterment of Open Space as a whole,
    • And, by being an ambassador for the mountain bike community – riding safely, responsibly, and courteously – every time you enjoy your JCOS multi-use trails, and encouraging fellow riders to do the same.
    Please join us at a post-trial celebration we have planned this Friday, December 12 at 6pm at Wrigley’s Sports Bar located near Apex at 18200 W. Colfax, Golden 80401. All mountain bikers and friends of multi-use are more than welcomed to attend. Hope to see you there!

    ~TVC
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    Last edited by TVC15; 12-12-2008 at 07:02 AM.

  2. #2
    "Oldfart from Wayback"
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    Well done and good news



    Justice is still alive

  3. #3
    Now with 20% more fat!!
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    Thank you, TVC! I know I'm not alone in my appreciation for your hard work! I'll do my best to attend Friday's celebration (unless I'm involved in one of those awesome night rides). Congrats!

  4. #4
    Yappy little dog!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    I am very happy and relieved to report to you that after several hours in trial, the Jefferson County Court has patiently and completely heard one of our cases, found the first Defendant NOT GUILTY, and as of this morning, has DISMISSED THE CHARGES against the remaining four Defendants.
    Congratulations to the first Defendant who obviously put together a very good legal case. Who was it?

    Also, don't be surprised if this sets up a little retaliation. I'd expect to see a LOT more signage and probably more watching by the authorities.

  5. #5
    Moosehead
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    Congrats & Well Done

    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    I hope that all Front Range mountain bikers will join us in this endeavor by:
    • Joining local and national mountain bike advocacy groups, and being an active participant in their organizations,
    • Attending OSAC meetings personally as often as you can, and being a vigorous and present voice for our mountain bike community,
    • Writing and voicing your concerns, trail experiences, and suggestions directly to JCOS and OSAC, and not sitting back while our community’s representation is siphoned and diluted through ineffective and compromising channels of bureaucracy and red tape;
    • Fighting all unjust “DEEP” Failure to Yield Right of Way citations that you or other bikers receive, to ensure that misguided and poor policy is scrutinized, clearly understood by all responsible and managing parties, and ultimately improved for the betterment of Open Space as a whole,
    • And, by being an ambassador for the mountain bike community – riding safely, responsibly, and courteously – every time you enjoy your JCOS multi-use trails, and encouraging fellow riders to do the same.
    ~TVC
    and moreso, well said, particularly given the obstacles you had to deal with. lesson to us all. thanks tvc.

  6. #6
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    Congrats! I was hoping that was what all the happy emoticons in the other thread were celebrating.

  7. #7
    Bad Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsin2000
    Congrats! I was hoping that was what all the happy emoticons in the other thread were celebrating.
    Ditto.
    Good job TVC15, and all others involved in this, and thank you.
    Only problem is, shouldn't the celebration be at Buffalo Creek on Friday at 6pm instead of Wrigley's?! Since BC's where the official unofficial F'N T.I.T.S. ride will be (hopefully)!! If we end up riding Green Mtn - we'll attend Wrigley's for a short celebration 1st - right PBR?

  8. #8
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by andychrysler
    Ditto.Since BC's where the official unofficial F'N T.I.T.S. ride will be (hopefully)!! If we end up riding Green Mtn - we'll attend Wrigley's for a short celebration 1st - right PBR?
    Oh crap, I'm sorry! I didn't check the calendar around these parts, and scheduled this based solely on the Defendants' availability, all of whom put it enormous amounts of time and energy to the process, and whose families very patiently put up with their dedication to it.

    I imagine we could start a little earlier, and won't be wrapping up too early at Wrigley's, so we may be there for quite a spell. And they make one helluva Chicago Dog in case folks are hungry ...

  9. #9
    ride
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    Good on you, TVC. Thanks for seeing this thru.
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  10. #10
    Bad Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    scheduled this based solely on the Defendants' availability, all of whom put it enormous amounts of time and energy to the process, and whose families very patiently put up with their dedication to it.
    Rightly so - I'm just kiddin' ya.
    Have fun, and like I said, we'll prolly start at Wrigley's if we end up riding Green Mtn on Fri.
    If not, have fun!
    And again, thanks to you and all the others.

  11. #11
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
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    Well done all!

  12. #12
    Heads up Flyboy!!
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    Awesome...Glad to see this work out

  13. #13
    rubber side down
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    Here's how the cross examination of the ranger went exactly:

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/quS8w521qeM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/quS8w521qeM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

  14. #14
    enlightened.
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    Well done, thanks to those involved. JCOS clearly ticketed the right people.

  15. #15
    Pivot Rider
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    I also add my CONGRATS

    and well done! Thank you for seeing this thru and hopefully we can all (mtbrs and JCOS)work on a climate of cooperation -- not retaliation. One in which ALL trail users are given the same and equal useage guidelines!
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  16. #16
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by russman
    Here's how the cross examination of the ranger went exactly...
    Ha! Hey -- that even kinda looks like "Rider 1"! Rider 1 did nothing short of a STELLAR job. I think a litigator was born in this process.

    Oh man oh man, I only wish I was on the stand when this little exchanged happened ...

    Rider 1 to the DA: "I object!"
    Judge to Rider 1: "On what grounds?"
    Rider 1 to Judge: "What's the point?!!"

  17. #17
    rubber side down
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    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    Well done, thanks to those involved. JCOS clearly ticketed the right people.
    Thanks! I guess?

  18. #18
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    Congrats! You all did well...very well.

    I'm sure the little Ranger is fit to be tied and in a state of real depression. Someone hold up a glass for that poor lil chap!

  19. #19
    Stand back
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    Thanks for your effort, and the update!
    Golden Bike Park

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  20. #20
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by athalliah
    Well done, thanks to those involved. JCOS clearly ticketed the right people.
    indeed.


  21. #21
    hehe ...you said "member"
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    Good for all of you and thanks for the time and effort you invested!

    Re: the judge's decision, did he/she say anything, in closing, directed to the ranger or JCOS in way of recommendation toward future trail rule enforcement?
    “Me fail english? Thats unpossible.” - Matt Groening

  22. #22
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake7
    Re: the judge's decision, did he/she say anything, in closing, directed to the ranger or JCOS in way of recommendation toward future trail rule enforcement?
    No, she only ruled on this case. That was clear. However, she did so publicly (not from chambers), and to hear and watch her wrestling to make sense of them (it took over an hour for her to arrive her decision, and at one point had to cite a Webster's Dictionary to put on record the meaning of communicate), it made it very apparent to me as a person watching in the gallery that these rules are simply too intricate and confusing for anyone to understand, much less comply with on the trail -- particularly when you've got two types of permanent signs, and at least 2 versions of completely different temporary signage! -- and every single one of them directing all of their requirements onto one party, when cooperation is what is required to safely and freely move inside of parks.

    To watch her do this was a mini-renactment of the Public Forum where everybody, including Collen Gadd, appeared more confused by the rules than they were when they arrived.

    It seems obvious that they are going to need to revisit their rules, and I would guess they would do so soon. That is why I urged everyone to become actively involved in the process now. This is not a time to solidfy short-sighted and misguided policies, this is a time to improve policies that really work, that really increase harmony and increase safety, for all user groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by worth repeating...
    I hope that all Front Range mountain bikers will join us in this endeavor by:
    • Joining local and national mountain bike advocacy groups, and being an active participant in their organizations,
    • Attending OSAC meetings personally as often as you can, and being a vigorous and present voice for our mountain bike community,
    • Writing and voicing your concerns, trail experiences, and suggestions directly to JCOS and OSAC, and not sitting back while our community’s representation is siphoned and diluted through ineffective and compromising channels of bureaucracy and red tape,
    • Fighting all unjust “DEEP” Failure to Yield Right of Way citations that you or other bikers receive, to ensure that misguided and poor policy is scrutinized, clearly understood by all responsible and managing parties, and ultimately improved for the betterment of Open Space as a whole,
    • And, by being an ambassador for the mountain bike community – riding safely, responsibly, and courteously – every time you enjoy your JCOS multi-use trails, and encouraging fellow riders to do the same.

  23. #23
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    he-ro
    2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose.

  24. #24
    hehe ...you said "member"
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    However, she did so publicly (not from chambers), and to hear and watch her wrestling to make sense of them (it took over an hour for her to arrive her decision, and at one point had to cite a Webster's Dictionary to put on record the meaning of communicate), it made it very apparent to me as a person watching in the gallery that these rules are simply too intricate and confusing for anyone to understand, much less comply with on the trail -- particularly when you've got two types of permanent signs, and at least 2 versions of completely different temporary signage! -- and every single one of them directing all of their requirements onto one party, when cooperation is what is required to safely and freely move inside of parks.[/I].
    Interesting that she took the time with the definition of "communicate".

    Not knowing the specifics of the exact signage and rule verbage, I've always found that each and every "trail yield" encounter is unique with it's own situational peculiarities - the bottom line being that situation specific common sense should dictate what's appropriate. It seems that no matter how any all-encompasing rule is worded, it's important not to lose site of the INTENT of the rule - trail safety for all user groups.

    Thanks for the feedback
    “Me fail english? Thats unpossible.” - Matt Groening

  25. #25
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake7
    Not knowing the specifics of the exact signage and rule verbage, I've always found that each and every "trail yield" encounter is unique with it's own situational peculiarities - the bottom line being that situation specific common sense should dictate what's appropriate. It seems that no matter how any all-encompasing rule is worded, it's important not to lose site of the INTENT of the rule - trail safety for all user groups.
    Exactly right. And that is something that OSAC (the Board that JCOS reports to) desperately needs to understand, and hear. Repeatedly. I hope that you will join me and others in 2009 in attending some of OSAC's monthly meetings to make statements exactly like that, directly to them. Unfortunately, to this point, doing so has fallen on deaf ears at JCOS.

  26. #26
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    Excellent work. Thanks for everyone's time and effort. I can't make it to Wrigley's tomorrow, but I'd buy you guys a beer if I could.

  27. #27
    Your bike sucks
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    Awesome. Good work.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15

    Please join us at a post-trial celebration we have planned this Friday, December 12 at 6pm at Wrigley’s Sports Bar located near Apex at 18200 W. Colfax, Golden 80401. All mountain bikers and friends of multi-use are more than welcomed to attend. Hope to see you there!

    ~TVC

    If I wasn't flying out of town Saturday morning, I'd be there, congrats TVC.

    Dave
    Just Passing Through: eatin' dirt & crappin' dust

  29. #29
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbdirteater
    If I wasn't flying out of town Saturday morning, I'd be there, congrats TVC.

    Dave
    Thanks! At this rate, I'm thinking we may need to plan a Post-celebration Celebration, because I for one owe you a beer for all the work you've been doing on our behalf for oh so many years ....

    Plus, you really need to know the nitty gritty of what went down here, at LOTB and on the stand. Man, pretty eye opening stuff.

  30. #30
    post-ride specialist
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    I vote we all meet earlier and set up a ceremonial shuttle run down the apex, ending at Wrigley's.
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  31. #31
    Pivot Rider
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    Wish I could be there as well, TVC -- Unfortunately, I've got another commitment. Again, well done!
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  32. #32
    Got single track/speed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15

    Plus, you really need to know the nitty gritty of what went down here, at LOTB and on the stand. Man, pretty eye opening stuff.
    I'm trying to read between the lines here. Sounds like there's a lot of stuff left unsaid. I want to be at the celebration. Please post info when settled.

    -Chuck

  33. #33
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    I vote we all meet earlier and set up a ceremonial shuttle run down the apex, ending at Wrigley's.
    I'm pretty sure that plan would only result in the rare scheduling of a mid-December "DEEP" sting on Apex. But if you do it, have fun. Some of us have to work.

    Oh, ps: belated Happy 35th.

  34. #34
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckjoga
    I'm trying to read between the lines here. Sounds like there's a lot of stuff left unsaid. I want to be at the celebration. Please post info when settled.

    -Chuck
    You read correctly.

    We're all set, tomorrow, at 6, at Wrigley's. Looking forward to meeting you!

  35. #35
    zrm
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    Congratulations TVC. Sounds like you folks have done a really good job. I hope that real positive change in how the rules are written, interpreted, and enforced comes out of the whole situation. I don't envy any of you front range folks who have to try to make a trail system work that has so many diverse types of user groups and is so close to such a large metropolitan area. There is just no way to keep everyone happy all the time so there's always going to be comprimise -even within the MTB community and all it's little sub groups.
    I would repeat what has already been said that the mountain bike community needs to stay closely engaged with the JEFCO OSAC. Being involved with the process in a helpful and respectful with of allthe parties, and keeping peer pressure on the more - for lack of better term - less respectful elements of the MTB community should go a long way towards fostering cooperation rather than confrontation. Confrontation takes so much energy that could be put toward riding!.

    PS: Please credit the Summit Fat Tire Society for the "respect other users" sign when you use it.

  36. #36
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Congratulations TVC.

    PS: Please credit the Summit Fat Tire Society for the "respect other users" sign when you use it.
    Thanks, and will do. I think I'm turning it into a tee-shirt so lemme know where to send the royalties ... Hey, check this. This is JCOS' primary, permanent sign with which I don't have *much* of a problem:



    However, in conjunction with that idiotic two-page flyer they're attempting to enforce to the goddamn letter, it's an impossible situation. But, to encourage cooperation between user groups, it seems obvious (and imperative) to me that JCOS put and post responsibilities for all user groups.

    So, that said, wherever you've got that sign posted ... how about putting one on its opposite side, exactly the same, but with related verbiage for pedestrians?


    H I K E R S
    EXPECT AND RESPECT OTHER TRAIL USERS
    BE AWARE
    LOOK AND LISTEN
    ALLOW OTHERS TO PASS

    I mean seriously, why not?! Wouldn't signs like that increase park harmony, and safety? Those brainchildren running at Apex at 6pm during the summer wearing iPods who can't hear bikers' repeated requests to pass wouldn't be so startled all the time. Or indignant when they are. And those pissy hikers who really have a thing against bikers, who intentionally withhold the right-of-way (there aren't many, but there are a handful, and I seem to run into them at least two or three times a year -- and I'm quite sure they're part of the crew lodging continual complaints to JCOS about riders ...), would be reminded yes, they are required to allow others to pass freely. It is not ok to withhold a yield. They are expected to respect others too.
    Last edited by TVC15; 12-11-2008 at 02:24 PM.

  37. #37
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Thanks, and will do. I think I'm turning it into a tee-shirt so lemme know where to send the royalties ... Hey, check this. This is JCOS' primary, permanent sign with which I don't have *much* of a problem:



    However, in conjunction with that idiotic two-page flyer they're attempting to enforce to the goddamn letter, it's an impossible situation. But, to encourage cooperation between user groups, it seems obvious (and imperative) to me that JCOS put and post responsibilities for all user groups.

    So, that said, wherever you've got that sign posted ... how about putting one on its opposite side, exactly the same, but with related verbiage for pedestrians?


    H I K E R S
    EXPECT AND RESPECT OTHER TRAIL USERS
    BE AWARE
    LOOK AND LISTEN
    ALLOW OTHERS TO PASS

    I mean seriously, why not?! Wouldn't signs like that increase park harmony, and safety? Those brainchildren running at Apex at 6pm during the summer who can't hear bikers' repeated requests to pass wouldn't be so startled all the time. Or indignant when they are. And those pissy hikers who really have a thing against bikers, who intentionally withhold the right-of-way (there aren't many, but there are a handful, and I seem to run into them at least two or three times a year -- and I'm quite sure they're part of the crew lodging continual complaints to JCOS about riders ...), would be reminded yes, they are required to allow others to pass freely. It is not ok to withhold a yield. They are expected to respect others too.
    Well, like I said, it's important for the MTB community to be partners with all the other users in managing the trails. This is an opportunity to get folks together, hikers, runners, equestrians, and MTBers in all their various forms and perhaps tweak or overhaul the rules, code of conduct and the enforcement policy. There's no way everyone will be totally satisfied, but everyone will need to find some common ground and figure out what will work for everyone.

    PS: No payment for use of the sign needed, just have a good time next time you come up to Summit Co, be kind to the trails, and leave a little money behind. It's all get got for an economy up here!

    Jeeze, do you know how humiliating it is to beg for a living?

  38. #38
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Jeeze, do you know how humiliating it is to beg for a living?
    Sheesh -- of course I do. I'm in sales.

  39. #39
    "I want it now!"
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    Good job TVC! Way to represent. I was wondering, did the Judge feel these tickets were a waste of the courts time? I also wonder if the park po-po will begin to change their enforcement methods? Maybe this time, they won't threaten to arrest me!

    Congrats.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veruca Salt
    Good job TVC! Way to represent. I was wondering, did the Judge feel these tickets were a waste of the courts time?
    No, the judge was very careful to rule on this case period. However, the DA's office has shared some pretty interesting opinions with some of us, and I'm happy to share that information with folks at Wrigley's. Can you make it?

    Veruca, also would you mind describing the sting you got caught up in last year? Which park, on what trail, and the details of the decoy ranger's and ticketing rangers' behavior?

    And PS: We really, really need to ride sometime ....

  41. #41
    "I want it now!"
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    Ok, on this forum or PM?

    And yes, we do need to ride. I've been seeing a lot of photos of you lately - becoming quite the technical queen! Awesome.




    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    No, the judge was very careful to rule on this case period. However, the DA's office has shared some pretty interesting opinions with some of us, and I'm happy to share that information with folks at Wrigley's. Can you make it?

    Veruca, also would you mind describing the sting you got caught up in last year? Which park, on what trail, and the details of the decoy ranger's and ticketing rangers' behavior?

    And PS: We really, really need to ride sometime ....

  42. #42
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veruca Salt
    Ok, on this forum or PM?

    And yes, we do need to ride. I've been seeing a lot of photos of you lately - becoming quite the technical queen! Awesome.
    Heh ... thanks -- it's the bike. And the mentor.

    On this forum if you don't mind. I think people have a hard time visualizing how Rangers setting up these little operations actually invite passage, ignore attempts to communicate, and then ticket reasonable riding behaviors. It's such bs.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Heh ... thanks -- it's the bike. And the mentor.

    On this forum if you don't mind. I think people have a hard time visualizing how Rangers setting up these little operations actually invite passage, ignore attempts to communicate, and then ticket reasonable riding behaviors. It's such bs.

    I think I went down in flames on one of the earlier stings. There were two park po-po standing off the trail at the end of Apex. One had his fanny-pack hanging on one of the trail signs. Came up over the hill, made eye-contact with both rangers and proceeded to ride through.

    I guess, according to them, I did not yield the trail properly. So the war of words were on and they threatened to have the Jeffco Sheriff come by and solve this issue. I quickly backed off as I didn't need to be arrested for riding!

    They took my name (verified via radio to Jeffco dispatchers) and gave me a warning. The usual crap they were pulling at LOTB with your group. I just laugh when I see rangers on the trail anymore as they have lost all my respect.

  44. #44
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    Let's get this straight ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruca Salt
    I think I went down in flames on one of the earlier stings. There were two park po-po standing off the trail at the end of Apex.
    They were standing off the trail in your case too huh?!

    And were they standing off the left side of the trail, creating what any reasonable rider coming up to them on the right would read as a normal "passing lane"?

    And by standing off the trail, did you even consider them a "trail user," or just some guys who had stopped using the trail entirely?

    And did their physical communication, and wide passing lane they created, convey to you that they had voluntarily offered you right-of-way?

    Just curious, how wide was the trail that they were standing off of?

    Sounds exactly similar to our case. Hmm. Jeffco's finest.

  45. #45
    hehe ...you said "member"
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Exactly right. And that is something that OSAC (the Board that JCOS reports to) desperately needs to understand, and hear. Repeatedly. I hope that you will join me and others in 2009 in attending some of OSAC's monthly meetings to make statements exactly like that, directly to them. Unfortunately, to this point, doing so has fallen on deaf ears at JCOS.

    True that! I've never sought to attend or participate in one of these meetings - although I know I should. (My dad holds a seat on the OSAC board for crying out loud.) Please post when there are upcoming meetings with the MTB community on the agenda - I'm sure there are others who would like to get involved as well.

    Have fun at Wrigley's tomorrow - I'd like to join your celebration, but have a fiery 2nd grade hoops team (my son) to coach to victory
    “Me fail english? Thats unpossible.” - Matt Groening

  46. #46
    MFin' Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake7
    True that! I've never sought to attend or participate in one of these meetings - although I know I should. (My dad holds a seat on the OSAC board for crying out loud.)
    Holy cannoli. Really?!

    You and I really, really need to talk.

    Check your pms.

  47. #47
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! what she said

    Quote Originally Posted by jake7
    (My dad holds a seat on the OSAC board for crying out loud.)
    um, can i buy you lunch?



    P.S.
    i'm also the father of a 2nd grader...
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  48. #48
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    Thanks!

    Excellent Work TVC15!! Very glad to hear that you and the "offenders" prevailed in proving these rules are unfair and biased. I remember when I first read about this issue this summer it really pissed me off. I immediately thought they were meant to punish mountain bikers. I'm always courteous and cautious when I ride FR trails and expect the same from other trail users. It's really great to here that people spent some time fighting these frivolous tickets that punish MTB'ers! We need more people like you to fight against "Flaws" seem to be oh so prevalent in today’s society. I wish I could join everyone in celebrating but won't be able to make it. Also, I'd suggest you look into some sort of Journalism since you are extremely well written and intelligible. Again, Nice Work!

  49. #49
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    Congrat's TVC. Way to go. Was the bald dude there to hear that he lost?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporterkyle
    Congrat's TVC. Way to go. Was the bald dude there to hear that he lost?
    Oh yeah, he was there, as was the decoy ranger. They stayed for the whole trial which took 7 hours, over two days. They were very invested in this.

    It was 7pm by the time the judge made her ruling Monday night, so we and the rangers were the only one in the gallery at the time. The bald dude looked none too pleased (as usual), but he was a whole lot less yell-y, I'll tell you that.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVC15
    Oh yeah, he was there, as was the decoy ranger. They stayed for the whole trial which took 7 hours, over two days. They were very invested in this.

    It was 7pm by the time the judge made her ruling Monday night, so we and the rangers were the only one in the gallery at the time. The bald dude looked none too pleased (as usual), but he was a whole lot less yell-y, I'll tell you that.
    So you didn't go out for beers with the rangers afterward?

  52. #52
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    Good to Know

    Thanks for the update. i'm glad that I yield 99% of time even when it appears to piss off some hikers, yeah, i typed that right, it can pisses off some hikers. some hikers will halt about 20-30 yards away and get off to the side of the trail and wave me through, but I stop and tell them to come on through. for some reason, a fair amount of hikers strongly insist i come through and when i tell them i'm not going to, they get pissy that i didn't accept their generosity. oh well.

    I started doing that a few yrs ago after a hiker waved me through, then i hesitated, then the hiker started going, then i started going, and it was just a clusterphuck, and i got *****ed out by the hiker. fair enough, so to avoid any confusion, i never accept the yield offers. i decided to always yield and then thank the hikers and let them know that they have the right of way and it causes more trail confusion when they yield to riders.

    i didn't think it would ever save me a ticket in a sting operation though.

    I do see quite a few riders still act as though they have right of way downhill and it spooks hikers.

    probably one of those issues that will never be completely solved but i'm doing my part to make it less an issue
    i'm the man from nantucket

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbehnke
    Thanks for the update. i'm glad that I yield 99% of time even when it appears to piss off some hikers, yeah, i typed that right, it can pisses off some hikers. some hikers will halt about 20-30 yards away and get off to the side of the trail and wave me through, but I stop and tell them to come on through. for some reason, a fair amount of hikers strongly insist i come through and when i tell them i'm not going to, they get pissy that i didn't accept their generosity. oh well.

    I started doing that a few yrs ago after a hiker waved me through, then i hesitated, then the hiker started going, then i started going, and it was just a clusterphuck, and i got *****ed out by the hiker. fair enough, so to avoid any confusion, i never accept the yield offers. i decided to always yield and then thank the hikers and let them know that they have the right of way and it causes more trail confusion when they yield to riders.

    probably one of those issues that will never be completely solved but i'm doing my part to make it less an issue
    Smart. And good on you.

    However, as a person who has every much a right to enjoy open space as the next, you should be able to achieve safe and courteous passage without going to such ridicoulous and tedious extremes that inconvenience everybody. That becomes possible when open space policy requires all trail users to behave safely, responsibly, and respectfully when using the trails; and ceases to rely upon a foundation of "second class usership" of an entire user group.
    Last edited by TVC15; 12-15-2008 at 04:20 PM.

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