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Thread: VW TDI VS Prius

  1. #1
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    New question here. VW TDI VS Prius

    We are shopping for a new car for her. It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute. I already tried to put her on a commuter bike. She is not having that. I am looking for some reviews from people who drive these cars not the radical fanatics. Any helps tips or advice would be great.
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    drive them both. They are very different vehicles.

    I would vote for a TDI hands down. I enjoy cars and driving them. A Prius is not exactly a "drivers" car. I am a VW tech, and although I have never owned a VW or had the desire to do so I think they are good cars. The interior of the VW is much nicer than a Prius. Plus you can get a TDI in a wagon.

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    How do the VW's hold up? I know the engine is great but what about the body and interior? I see a lot on the road that could go either way. I dont know if its lack of quality or owner neglect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajun Rich
    How do the VW's hold up? I know the engine is great but what about the body and interior? I see a lot on the road that could go either way. I dont know if its lack of quality or owner neglect.

    I think their pretty good cars. The majority of the problems come down the road from lack of maintenance. They have free scheduled service for the first 30K miles. Once the warranty is up they do cost a good bit more to maintain than non Euro brands. You couldn't give me a Touareg thats out of warranty.

    If your looking for a Jetta sedan I would look for a 2010 model, as the new redesigned 2011 models were "cheapened" up quite a bit to make them more competitive with entry level cars. The 2011 wagons have not changed yet.

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    I have a 2010 Golf (Jetta in USA) Sportwagen with the TDI engine. I bought the car for long distance summer travel (usually mountain bike related) and don't drive it much in the city as I ride my bike as much as possible. For long distance driving I don't think the car can be beat, mileage is superb, the car is fast and comfortable and feels very well built.

    The downside of the TDI is that it takes forever to warm up in the winter but that's not an issue in Florida I'd imagine!

    For stop and go city driving I'd imagine the Prius would be superior, for interstate the TDI would be superior. I'd base my decision on that... other than the fact that a Golf TDI is way cooler than a Prius and thus I'd buy the Golf no mater what.

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    The wife has a 2010 Prius III, I drive it 1-2 x week.

    Overall I think it's a great car, the life time fuel economy is holding at 50.3 mpg after about 14,000 miles and my wife does not drive it in the most fuel efficient manner.

    It's a great city / suburb car, very comfy on the highway, no problems at 75-80 mph and getting 45-50 mpg as long as theere are no huge hills and/or super strong winds.

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    stop and go? no question Prius

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    1) Don't get a 2011 Jetta sedan. It's a POS compared to the 2010. The wagon is still using the old body style
    2) Despite being kind of noisy, the Jetta will be a lot nicer to drive, especially on the highways. It'll get about the same highway mpg as a prius, althoug on more expensive fuel
    3) Driving dynamics really don't matter in town. The Prius gets better city mpg. The Prius will be significantly more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

    The Prius is the more sensible choice. The Jetta is the more interesting car (unless you're looking at the 2011).

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    Wink

    I'd get the VW TDI over a Prius any day. There is a reason that Europeans don't buy into the hybrid hype as diesels are more reliable and get great fuel economy too. Some smaller cars we don't get here.. get 60 to 70 mpg
    When it is time to replace that poison pill of a battery pack in the Prius, you'd better have saved up about $ 4 K when it is out of warranty....

    Interesting read here..http://www.wisegeek.com/which-are-th...cient-cars.htm
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    TDI is dope and does get great gas mileage but not in city conditions. the OP had stated the original intent as "It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute"

    In this regard the regenerative braking of the Prius comes through as a superior choice.

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    neither.

    I'd do some research on the powertrains of the Prius and the EMR waves that come off the powertrain.Appartantley it's the same type of energy that comes off cell phones. VW's always have some glitches, normally electrical and cost heaps to repair. I'd suggest maybe even looking at a Hyundai. The new Elantra Sedan get's wicked fuel economy 4.9ltr/100 ( sorry, Canadian ) The warranty in the States is a 10 year, and the money you would save over the Prius or the TDI will fund your bikes for a bit!

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    I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.

    Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW
    I'd get the VW TDI over a Prius any day. There is a reason that Europeans don't buy into the hybrid hype as diesels are more reliable and get great fuel economy too. Some smaller cars we don't get here.. get 60 to 70 mpg
    When it is time to replace that poison pill of a battery pack in the Prius, you'd better have saved up about $ 4 K when it is out of warranty....

    Interesting read here..http://www.wisegeek.com/which-are-th...cient-cars.htm
    Diesels are popular in Europe because it's typically cheaper to fuel and drive as the truckers unions make it so (they'll shut down an entire country if they don't get lower taxes on anything diesel). Plus, only Toyota hybrids (and really only the Prius) and Toyota just ain't popular in Europe.

    If people objectively bought on saving money and conservation there would never be a diesel or hybrid passenger car ever sold in the US. If people were really concerned about saving money and the environment they'd buy a low mileage, slightly used Civic or Corolla.

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    Sal I am selling a 2006 Civic mpg is not that great average is about 32. My previous 2000 model Civic would do great. I would would average between 36 and 40. If I could find one of those with low mileage I would pick it up quick.
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    '10 VW GOLF TDI 6MT
    40.3 MPG average since i got the car.
    7 month , 16,7xx miles later, im loving this car.
    very very fun to drive. great milage, great style. etc.
    i've never driven Prius, but never had the desire.
    i think you should test drive TDI, you'll probably end up signing and driving it away from the dealer.

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    You mean...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Preroll
    I'd do some research on the powertrains of the Prius and the EMR waves that come off the powertrain.Appartantley it's the same type of energy that comes off cell phones. VW's always have some glitches, normally electrical and cost heaps to repair. I'd suggest maybe even looking at a Hyundai. The new Elantra Sedan get's wicked fuel economy 4.9ltr/100 ( sorry, Canadian ) The warranty in the States is a 10 year, and the money you would save over the Prius or the TDI will fund your bikes for a bit!
    .. the same ones that by all studies have no effect on health? These are studies done in many different countries, not just the usual US Corporate biased kinda stuff.

    For one, cell phones operate in the microwave band (1.8 Ghz to 2.1 Ghz. The IMR of the Prius operates at way higher amounts of energy and at a completely different EM band, not to mention it's encased in cast aluminum, and got several layers of 14ga steel shielding between you and the motor. They are nowhere near close to the 'same kind of energy', except they are both basically emitting radio waves.

    Think about it... if cell phones actually did cause brain tumors or other issues, wouldn't we see a massive unmistakable spike in these issues since cell phone use is up like 1000 times in the last 15 years? In fact, brain cancer rates have dropped off from 7.0 cases per 100,000 to 6.4 in 100,000. Maybe cell phones actually cure brain cancer!

    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...in-tumor-study

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    This is going to be her car. I am taking her Accord til I can find the truck I want. She does not drive the highway often.
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    I was looking at this earlier this year.
    http://www.kalispelltoyota.com/used/...c4db856902.htm

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    VW TDI VS Prius-prius-repellant.jpg

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    Looks more like...

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
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    ...silly redneck attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
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    beautiful!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...silly redneck attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?
    It's right next to the "Ron Paul was right!" bumper sticker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...silly redneck attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?
    you'll find plenty of prius' on the upper west side of manhattan. everyone pats each other on the back for driving one up there. hey look at me look at me, i'm doing my part to help the environment!! i was parked on a block up there one time with my truck idoling for about 5 minutes while working and someone came up to me and asked me if i could turn off my vehicle to keep the emissions low on the block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roc865
    you'll find plenty of prius' on the upper west side of manhattan. everyone pats each other on the back for driving one up there. hey look at me look at me, i'm doing my part to help the environment!! i was parked on a block up there one time with my truck idoling for about 5 minutes while working and someone came up to me and asked me if i could turn off my vehicle to keep the emissions low on the block.
    Hypocrites. Like those movie 'stars' who show up in a Prius after flying in on a private jet.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDM
    I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.

    Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.
    I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX
    I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.
    agreed on the part wehre if you're trying to save money just get a used toyota or something, but i disagree with you overall
    i bought a new GOLF TDI because i believe it will serve my needs best. according to you im not saving money? i did the math and regular 2.5 GOLF with same options as my TDI would be about 2,5K less$, but then again i got full tax credit of $1300 which really makes it about $1200 difference, and ill make that up in very little time, in 7 month i put 17,000 miles already, but it wasnt the savings that drove me to buy this car.
    i wanted: fun car to drive, range of 600 per tank, german engineering, and if i can help reduce my overall emissions footprint then thats just a bonus
    VW GOLF is an amazing car, it really is super fun to drive, its fast, plenty of power, handles like a proper german car, looks great, and i still get 40.3 MPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    agreed on the part wehre if you're trying to save money just get a used toyota or something, but i disagree with you overall
    i bought a new GOLF TDI because i believe it will serve my needs best. according to you im not saving money? i did the math and regular 2.5 GOLF with same options as my TDI would be about 2,5K less$, but then again i got full tax credit of $1300 which really makes it about $1200 difference, and ill make that up in very little time, in 7 month i put 17,000 miles already, but it wasnt the savings that drove me to buy this car.
    i wanted: fun car to drive, range of 600 per tank, german engineering, and if i can help reduce my overall emissions footprint then thats just a bonus
    VW GOLF is an amazing car, it really is super fun to drive, its fast, plenty of power, handles like a proper german car, looks great, and i still get 40.3 MPG
    Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.

    Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.

    Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajun Rich
    Sal I am selling a 2006 Civic mpg is not that great average is about 32. My previous 2000 model Civic would do great. I would would average between 36 and 40. If I could find one of those with low mileage I would pick it up quick.
    Just to point out... Some states have changed their fuel composition over the past few years. I am in AZ and we use to have 10% ethanol for our winter fuel but it has changed to 10% ethanol year round. My gas mileage has dropped roughly 5-10% since they have done so (I am one of those geeks who keeps track). The lower mileage you are experiencing on your '06 Civic may be due to something similiar.

  29. #29
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    Whelllp....

    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX
    I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.
    ... if you're gonna buy a new car anyway, may as well choose one that gets good mileage. Some folks just have to spring for a new car when they change cars.

    Depends on what are are coming from as well. If you're at the end of a 3 year lease, you can either choose to buy the car you are leasing, or get something else. If the car you are leasing is a V8 rail frame SUV, then trading in on a gas saver will certainly save you money, both in gas an insurance.

    I'm not one of those folks. I tend to buy ~$10k used cars that are a few years old I pay cash for, and maintain them well, and trade up when they start to feel like they are falling apart after I put 150k miles on them myself.

    And yeah, I drove VWs and Audis which aren't the most reliable out there, but they aren't bad in my experience. My last VWs I got well over 250k miles on without seeing much unexpected shop time. A bit, but not much. The unreliability factor is not big enough to overcome my love of the way they feel and drive, and how the love isn't there for other cars.

    If you think that VWs feel like any other compact car, you really need to go drive one.... or maybe you really can't tell the difference. To me, its night and day. To me, they look and feel like somebody actually cared and loved the cars they designed.
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    Since I ride bike, I don't like pollution or overseas oil or climate change risk, so I would have to see Prius since it has a much better pollution score and uses almost half the oil.



    My families VW GTI had issues and they had to dump it when the transmission went out. I don't know why they bought another GTI.

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    Here is some more helpful info....

    VW TDI VS Prius-cr-gas-mileage.jpg

    These are better numbers than the EPA. CR calculates their own MPG in real world driving. The EPA puts a car on a conveyer belt which is not as accurate.

    The Prius is obviously the best in terms of MPG, however, another thing to consider is resell value. Diesels are known to last forever. A hybrid battery will eventually need to be replaced and they are not cheap. I think you will have a harder time getting rid of the hybrid when it comes time to replace it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Here is some more helpful info....

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    These are better numbers than the EPA. CR calculates their own MPG in real world driving. The EPA puts a car on a conveyer belt which is not as accurate.

    The Prius is obviously the best in terms of MPG, however, another thing to consider is resell value. Diesels are known to last forever. A hybrid battery will eventually need to be replaced and they are not cheap. I think you will have a harder time getting rid of the hybrid when it comes time to replace it.
    another thing to consider is the prius is one of the uglier looking cars.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.

    Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.

    Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.
    its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
    anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.
    and as far as PC vs MAC its all about personal preference and to me MAC is better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA

    Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.
    .
    as for comparing cars it doesnt have to be in just one class.
    example: AUDI A6 vs Chevy Impala i've driven both and Audi wins
    AUDI Q7 vs Chevy Suburban or any other large SUV, once again AUDI wint
    BMW 3 series *(any of them) vs Camry or any other mis side, germany wins again,
    btw my GOLF is plenty roomy inside.and when compared to other hatces of similar size that i've driven or been in, ex: Toyota Matrix, Pontiac vibe, Scion TC, etc, all of them do not come close to my GOLF,
    so once again your argument makes no sense and german engineering wins once again

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    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
    anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.
    and as far as PC vs MAC its all about personal preference and to me MAC is better.
    When I was in highschool I use to work at Subway as a "Sandwich Artist". The first thing I learned during orientation is that 90% of the sandwich taste comes from how the sandwich looks... In other words its all about perception. As much as I hate the magazine and as nice as the VW looks... Consumer Reports is usually right.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    AUDI A6 vs Chevy Impala
    Starting MSRP: $45,200 vs $24,390

    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    AUDI Q7 vs Chevy Suburban or any other large SUV
    Starting MSRP: $45,700 vs $22,745 (That's for the Equinox... Tahoe/Suburban are in a different class as they are body on frame)

    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    BMW 3 series *(any of them) vs Camry or any other mis side
    Starting MSRP: $33,650 vs $19,720

    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    btw my GOLF is plenty roomy inside.and when compared to other hatces of similar size that i've driven or been in, ex: Toyota Matrix, Pontiac vibe, Scion TC, etc, all of them do not come close to my GOLF,
    so once again your argument makes no sense and german engineering wins once again
    Hey, I am not dissing on German cars. I really like them. I actually really like Audi. I almost bought an RS4. I even went to their driving school (Audi Driving Experience) that was ran by Panoz school of Racing at Road Atlanta before they sold out to Skip Barber. I am just saying that they are not reliable and most of that German driving sensation that you are feeling is coming from the fact that German cars run on the small side....

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    The argument that the VW has that "German" feel rings somewhat true, especially comparing it to the Prius. Cars in the same segment as the Golf/Jetta TDI just don't drive the same. Steering feels disconnected, suspensions not as buttoned up, and the overall driving experience suffers.

    Anyone who cares about driving at all would know that the Prius is an abysmal car to drive. Vague steering, horrible driving position (what were they thinking), need I say more. That said, for some, it just makes a whole lot of sense, and the car serves its purpose. And there are many more who care about getting from point A to B than they do about driving.

    As for your case, which does she like better? I mean go drive them both, the cars are different enough that you should have a glaring winner at the end of the day...

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    another thing to keep in mind,
    GOLF/Jetta TDI you can still get as a manual *(its a 6 speed too )
    prius only comes as auto slush box

  39. #39
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    Well, its an automatic...

    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    another thing to keep in mind,
    GOLF/Jetta TDI you can still get as a manual *(its a 6 speed too )
    prius only comes as auto slush box

    .... but the Prius runs a CVT with a planetary gear system instead of a torque converter. It actually uses an electric motor to counter spin a planetary gear while the gas engine spins a sun gear forward to keep the car stationary, or vary the traction, ICE and MG2 motors to make whatever speed out of whatever combination of the three. Its pretty frickin cool how it works.

    http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

    I haven't driven a Prius in a long time (prolly a 1st gen Prius), but I have a whole bunch of hours logged in a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which is pretty much the same thing but larger. It is way more responsive than any other traditional automatic slushbox. Plus, that truck lays down some crazy power, I must say. It could keep up with my Audi A4, and still return similar gas mileage.

    I'm with you, tho. I love manual transmissions. I have never owned an automatic of any kind, and hope never to... well, I may get a cheap minivan to make a weekender vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by romanl
    its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
    anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.
    In Europe we get to benchmark reliability with French cars though... along with higher average quality of fuel (at least is should be for the 4x price!) this may be the reason for better reputation.

  41. #41
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    Iíve owned a Prius for almost 5 years and hate it. Donít get me wrong itís a good car never a problem, comfortable, does everything adequately, and gets great mileage. Itís just no fun.
    If I were buying right now it would strongly consider a jetta Wagon TDI with a 6 speed if thatís possible.

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    What's not fun about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endomaniac
    Iíve owned a Prius for almost 5 years and hate it. Donít get me wrong itís a good car never a problem, comfortable, does everything adequately, and gets great mileage. Itís just no fun.
    If I were buying right now it would strongly consider a jetta Wagon TDI with a 6 speed if thatís possible.
    Are you sad because your boy-racer fantasies are not coming true on public roads and with VW TDI groupies while driving a Prius? Vroom, vroom.


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    My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! The traction control can not be completely over ridden and the hyper-mileage tires are a joke in the snow. You can't pick a gear from a dead stop since it's a CVT tranny so you basically just push the peddle and hope the car gets traction. He also would agree with the previous statement, "the car is no fun". I think any remotely enthusiastic soul should choose the TDI over the soulless Prius

    The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account??? Also, the dead batteries have to go somewhere. I doubt the car's complete lifecycle is any cleaner than the TDI and it's not nearly as fun to live with.

    And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! Fixing a few electronic gremlins on the TDI over a long period of time is much less a hassle than a $5000 repair bill out of the blue! And if you're a do-it-yourselfer, good luck trying to do anything other than very basic stuff to the Prius. The thing is an engineering marvel but it's beyond most of our abilities to tinker on. Not much is undoable on the "basic" TDI...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX
    My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! ...

    The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account???...

    And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! ...
    1. If you want to be green ride a bike. There is nothing green about a personal car that burns oil. The Prius is only a lesser of to evils.

    2. That is too bad for your buddy that had the dealer replace the Prius High Voltage battery for major coin. Yet, for the DIY type, you can rebuild a Prius pack with the money saved on fuel from the TDI over one year.
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius-Batter...Do-It-Yourself
    Home Power Magazine has also done articles on DIY battery replacement.

    Since your friend had the car Prius for ~8 years, the Prius paid for the battery 8 times over.

    3. Study: Diesels, hybrids retain more value than gasoline-fueled vehicles

    4. If you live in a region that snows, why get a 2WD, so TDI is out. Going to Tahoe, usually the roads are closed once you really can use 4WD.

    5. End of life batteries are recycled. Even if the whole Prius battery was tossed, the average american goes through a lot more e-waste than Prius batteries. That means that if you use a computer, phone, cell phone, Ipod, tv, radio, printer, microwave, that you are polluting more than replacing a Prius Battery.

    6. The bill on a VWs low reliability transition is $5000, so even if you did have to buy a battery from the dealer, it could be a wash.

    In the end, get the car that you want. Not everyone wants the look of the Prius, so don't get it. Get a Chevy Volt It plugs in to cleaner energy, while oil is getting dirtier and more risky in politics.

  45. #45
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    From a looks standpoint I'd go with the VW. The Prius is butt ugly and than you have the smugness factor added in.

  46. #46
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    Tell him to get some...

    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX
    My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! The traction control can not be completely over ridden and the hyper-mileage tires are a joke in the snow. You can't pick a gear from a dead stop since it's a CVT tranny so you basically just push the peddle and hope the car gets traction. He also would agree with the previous statement, "the car is no fun". I think any remotely enthusiastic soul should choose the TDI over the soulless Prius

    The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account??? Also, the dead batteries have to go somewhere. I doubt the car's complete lifecycle is any cleaner than the TDI and it's not nearly as fun to live with.

    And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! Fixing a few electronic gremlins on the TDI over a long period of time is much less a hassle than a $5000 repair bill out of the blue! And if you're a do-it-yourselfer, good luck trying to do anything other than very basic stuff to the Prius. The thing is an engineering marvel but it's beyond most of our abilities to tinker on. Not much is undoable on the "basic" TDI...
    ...actual snow tires, preferably the studless ones like Bridgestone Blizzaks or Michelin X-Ice. With those fitted the Prius is great in the snow as long as the ground clearance holds out.

    The life cycle thing has been beat to death. Yes it's still much greener to drive a car that gets 50 MPG than one that gets 10, 20 or 30 MPG. There are first gen 14 year old Priuses in taxi use that have more than 250,000 miles and still have their original batteries because they are charged and discharged very conservatively. That said, used Prius hybrid battery packs (such as from wrecked vehicles) have been selling for less than $1000 and new packs for second gen models were $2588 last time I checked not $5000. Also check the emissions warranty in your state, in CA for example the emissions warranty covers parts and labor on replacing the Prius batteries up to 150,000 miles.

  47. #47
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    I got my wife a Audi A3 TDI. We get 45 + mpg. I know it is not a VW but the cars are pretty much the same. If you have ever seen how they mine lead and sulfuric acid, it is not a pretty sight. Lead/acid batteries are not very environmentally friendly.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55
    I got my wife a Audi A3 TDI. We get 45 + mpg. I know it is not a VW but the cars are pretty much the same. If you have ever seen how they mine lead and sulfuric acid, it is not a pretty sight. Lead/acid batteries are not very environmentally friendly.
    Note that Lead-Acid Batteries are the standard starter battery in almost every car that have a life of around 6 years on average because of the low tech, packaging, and low cost. Also, note, that that lead acid batteries are recycled more than any other product because of there residual core value.

  49. #49
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    What about the new Chevy Volt?



    Its basically a Battery Electric Vehicle, charged on home for your up to 40 mile commute, and a gas-electric hybrid past the 40 mile pure EV range.

    The result for most drivers, you will not use any oil at all, until you go on a long trip, which you will still get 40 MPG highway. Even on a long trip the Volt will use >20% less oil than the TDI. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

    Worried that your electric bill will go up? Electricity is cheap and electric motors are >3 times more efficient than a diesel engine! You will save $1000/ year on energy to power your car over the VW TDI.

    The base is not cheap at $33,500 after tax incentives. Since US Oil generation Peaked in the '70s, the lack of oil use is important environmentally and politically to its buyers. It's made in the US, it uses US energy, instead of shipping oil money out of the country and it does IMOH, it looks good in red.

    While the TDI will pollute more over time as oil is harder to find and net oil decreases, the Volt will get cleaner as more renewable energy comes on line. With some more coin, you can put solar, wind or micro hydro in at your home and charge on 100% renewable.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.

    Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.

    Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.

    Wrong. Spoken by someone that obviously doesn't have any ownership experience of a proper sports car. No disrespect but if you make such statements...

    The classification "compact car" has no implications regarding balance, proper spring rates, brake fade, cockpit ergonomics, crash performance, and so on and on.

    I've owned more than 10 BMWs, 3 Porsches, several VWs and a host of other cars including many that were designed and produced within the US. The German made and engineered vehicles have never let me down and have been very efficient, even the high performance models relative to their classification.

    To the OP. We have a 2011 VW Jetta Sportswagen with the 6spd manual. It has about 9k miles on it at this point and it's averaged up to 47mpg on a tank and I have lead foot. That's about 600 miles of mountain driving per tank. Zero issues though I'll say it's no BMW. That said, the car is fast, handles very well, goes perfectly fine in the snow and is a car that I can seat 5 in comfortably, plus a couple of dogs or gear. Even with two mtbs up top along with a large gear pod, we get about 550 miles on a 14 gallon tank here in the mountains.

    Also note that this car was declared the "green car of the year" for 2009, the year it was introduced. Tests have shown that it's among the best for clean emissions and has the designation of being a "clean diesel" car.

    We bought the TDI wagon because we needed a new wagon that would work well commuting on high speed canyon roads in all weather. Not because it was "green". The car really impressed me on the test drive and the price was right. Edit to add: It also just got us an additional tax break.

    YMMV
    Last edited by Miles2go; 02-08-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA
    Hey, I am not dissing on German cars. I really like them. I actually really like Audi. I almost bought an RS4. I even went to their driving school (Audi Driving Experience) that was ran by Panoz school of Racing at Road Atlanta before they sold out to Skip Barber. I am just saying that they are not reliable and most of that German driving sensation that you are feeling is coming from the fact that German cars run on the small side....
    Wrong again, for the same reason.

    A 7 series BMW is not on the small side and yet it handles and feels much like its smaller siblings, all the way down to the two seaters. Your Skip Barber instructors would assume that you were asleep in class if they read what you're writing.

    And...how many German cars have you owned to qualify in saying that they are not reliable.
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    There's some irony in that Prius is on average much more reliable than the average German car, and in general, German car reliability issues (especially in and amongst the luxury marques) is inexcusable. Not trying to troll, just calling it like I see it.

    I'm amazed people buy either; buying a lightly used compact is better environmentally and financially than buying a new hybrid or "clean" diesel.

  53. #53
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    Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:



    Recycling an old 13 mpg Ford F-150 is an infinitely more green way to go.

  54. #54
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    This old saw again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:

    This myth has been debunked so many times it's amazing that many people haven't got the word. Or purposely choose to ignore the truth. All of that damage was done early in the last century when mining practices allowed it and before environmental regulations prevented it. That was all was decades before Toyota started buying materials for hybrid batteries from that mine or any other mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Recycling an old 13 mpg Ford F-150 is an infinitely more green way to go.
    I doubt it, that's mostly a comfortable myth but forget being "green" for a second; in the USA 3 out of 4 gallons of motor transportation fuel is made from oil bought from other countries. Keep in mind that the USA is one of the top oil producing coutries in the world too.

    Besides Canada, the overwhelming majority of those countries are run by horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens. And we're making them richer and richer by the day driving vehicles that get poor fuel economy.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Besides Canada, the overwhelming majority of those countries are run by horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens. And we're making them richer and richer by the day driving vehicles that get poor fuel economy.
    I've never owned a Prius before. When you go to the gas station, do you fill it up from a special pump with gas that comes from a source other than those that get richer by supporting horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens?

  56. #56
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    You're still regurgitating that swill?

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:



    Recycling an old 13 mpg Ford F-150 is an infinitely more green way to go.
    The amount of nickel in a Prius battery is less than the amount used in the galvanizing of an F150 body.... also not to mention... the Prius has gone to a Lithium Ion battery. Is there even any nickel in there?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion

    Not to mention, the nickel from Sudbury has been coming out of the ground since 1880s. You can hardly blame the devastation at Sudbury on the Prius.

    Look, RIS. I know you have an ax to grind against the Prius, but do yourself and all of us a favor and actually research your "facts" before parroting the lies and exaggerations put forth by the righties and the oil industry.

  57. #57
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    I've spoken with a few Prius owners, and they always say they never attain the combined MPG advertised. You' basically have to drive all day in a slow enough speed to never engage the gas motor. Yeah, right... What about those batteries and rare earth metals in the electric motors - environmentally friendly?

    I have a 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. It's been fantastic. I am a DIY mechanic, so it's never seen a dealer since it rolled off the lot. I get 50mpg highway, 45mpg for basic daily driving. Newer models have cleaner engines, less pollution, but lower mpg's. VW's are IMHO fantastic vehicles.

    Tom P.

  58. #58
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    I do own a Prius

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    I've never owned a Prius before. When you go to the gas station, do you fill it up from a special pump with gas that comes from a source other than those that get richer by supporting horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens?
    And I just don't go to gas stations that often, like every 500 miles or so or once a month on a 12 gallon tank. I also think about and practice ways to drive less all the time. If you on the other hand fill up a 13 MPG Ford F-150 a few times a week you can be assured that you are actively supporting people that are seriously undermining US security and are also making our country less wealthy and more jobless at every fill-up. Granted many people need trucks for work and that's fine with me but they are a bad idea as personal "cars" in ways beyond just thinking of "green" stuff.

  59. #59
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    I routinely get 50-60 MPG

    Quote Originally Posted by one piece crank
    I've spoken with a few Prius owners, and they always say they never attain the combined MPG advertised. You' basically have to drive all day in a slow enough speed to never engage the gas motor. Yeah, right... What about those batteries and rare earth metals in the electric motors - environmentally friendly?

    I have a 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. It's been fantastic. I am a DIY mechanic, so it's never seen a dealer since it rolled off the lot. I get 50mpg highway, 45mpg for basic daily driving. Newer models have cleaner engines, less pollution, but lower mpg's. VW's are IMHO fantastic vehicles.

    Tom P.
    ..in warmer temps. from 40 F and up. It always drops in the winter cold though like all cars but 40-50 MPG is still no problem then depending how much snow and slush you're driving through. You need to learn the pulse and glide technique in a Prius but it's not hard to learn.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAocwToZWVQ

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9GUY9
    drive them both. They are very different vehicles.

    I would vote for a TDI hands down. I enjoy cars and driving them. A Prius is not exactly a "drivers" car. I am a VW tech, and although I have never owned a VW or had the desire to do so I think they are good cars. The interior of the VW is much nicer than a Prius. Plus you can get a TDI in a wagon.
    Also another thing people won't want to discuss... the PRIUS is NOT an environmentally friendly car. the amount of heavy metals in the batteries and mercury in all that extra electronics far out weighs the "dirt" of the diesel!!!

    not to mention that parts for the Prius are sourced from all over the globe make it a really "dirty" car on the whole!

    besides the TDI is a much nicer car to drive!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by was98strat
    Also another thing people won't want to discuss... the PRIUS is NOT an environmentally friendly car. the amount of heavy metals in the batteries and mercury in all that extra electronics far out weighs the "dirt" of the diesel!!!

    not to mention that parts for the Prius are sourced from all over the globe make it a really "dirty" car on the whole!

    besides the TDI is a much nicer car to drive!
    I think you are mistaken by a common misinformation campaign. The high voltage battery in the Prius is the Nickel-Metal Hydride variety, with is not "heavy medal" based.

    On the other hand, the starter battery in your car, almost all cars, including the Prius is Lead-Acid, which is usually recycled and handled appropriately.

  62. #62
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    TDi's may get good mileage, but they are not cheap to own in the long run. When you start getting up in the 100K mile range, the timing belt/water pump change, plus the injectors, plus special oils filters and oil really add up. While we were getting 45 MPG in out Jetta TDi, the additional cost of maintenance and diesel fuel surpassed the fuel savings. A Corolla or Civic that gets 38 MPG with parts available at Auto Zone ended up being cheaper. Back when diesel was 2/3 the price of gas, it felt like cheating, but now that it is more than gas it just doesn't add up.

  63. #63
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    I can't wait to see what happens to the electric grid when 150.000 peeps plug in their overpriced Chevy Volt at night for a recharge.....
    Current ride(s) 2011 Santa Cruz Blur LT and a Norco Threshold SL with Di2

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW
    I can't wait to see what happens to the electric grid when 150.000 peeps plug in their overpriced Chevy Volt at night for a recharge.....
    The grid becomes more efficient due to load leveling since night charging is off peak.

  65. #65
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    1) The vast majority of energy used in a cars life is fuel energy. Something like 80%+.

    2) The rare metals, like lithium and nickel...and even lead, found in automotive batteries are valuable even at the end of the parts life. I imagine the vast, VAST majority will be recycled and those nickel and lithium atoms will be used for some other device, possibly a battery, 100 years from now. Car batteries are all ready the most recycled item on earth, and they're dirt-cheap compared to hybrid batteries.

    3) Plug in hybrids will, for quite a long time, run on basically free energy. Coal burning and nuclear powerplants are designed to run full-tilt all the time. The efficiency drops at significantly reduced power levels. It also takes on the order of a day or so to throttle them up or down. Running at less than 100% means they're not able to keep up with fluctuations in demand. So, at night any excess energy just gets dumped out the cooling tower. Putting that energy into car batteries would be fantastic and create a dramatic drop in pollution, even if you charge them up with coal (since the coal is being burnt anyway). Topping them up in the middle of a hot day would be a problem, but most will charge at night.

  66. #66
    RIS
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    A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?

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    not even a question.

  68. #68
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    Even a 'coal powered' car....

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?
    ... is more efficient than gasoline. Less COx and by-products are generated by coal in a power plant, even with transmitting the energy over hundreds or thousands of miles of power lines, than gasoline in your IC engine... by a lot... a lotta lot.

    You ever wonder what that big fat radiator in the front of the car is for?

  69. #69
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    And really...

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    The grid becomes more efficient due to load leveling since night charging is off peak.
    .... its not like 150,000 cars are going to be plugged into the same grid block. I'm sure they will learn to adjust the grid to keep up with demand as more electric cars come online over the next few decades.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    .... its not like 150,000 cars are going to be plugged into the same grid block. I'm sure they will learn to adjust the grid to keep up with demand as more electric cars come online over the next few decades.
    If you did not know, Google Smart Grid and Vehicle to Grid (V2G) technology. The concept is that the Electric Vehicle communicates with the grid and charges during lower power demand and during high demand the car batteries are taped to prevent a black out, using all the car batteries as a giant battery.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?
    Coal Powered Car

    Coal can be converted to fuel, and during WWII and during the '70s and '80s oil shortages, it was looked into, but its really inefficient well to wheel.

    If the US gets serious about coal cars or coal to liquid fuel, then take it as a major warning sign that oil reserves are not what they are said to be.

    About Charging a EV on 100% Coal:

    In terms of CO2 emissions, if electricity is generated from renewable sources like hydro, solar, or wind, zero emissions are created when charging an electric vehicle. Even in the worst case when using coal-fired electrical plants, producing the electricity to charge an EV creates less carbon emissions than the average US passenger vehicle (28.2 mpg equivalent vs. 22.4 mpg in 2006). Fortunately, coal isn't the only source of electricity in the US and is the predominate source in only a couple of regions. Using the average for the US grid, in terms of CO2 emissions, an EV causes CO2 emissions equivalent to 44.2 mpg. Charging off the west coast average grid, EVs are eqivaluent to 142.9 mpg. As the electrical grid gets cleaner, so do all electric vehicles on the road, while gas vehicles get dirtier and less efficient with age.
    http://www.saxton.org/EV/evfaq.php

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    1) 3) Plug in hybrids will, for quite a long time, run on basically free energy. Coal burning and nuclear powerplants are designed to run full-tilt all the time. The efficiency drops at significantly reduced power levels. It also takes on the order of a day or so to throttle them up or down. Running at less than 100% means they're not able to keep up with fluctuations in demand. So, at night any excess energy just gets dumped out the cooling tower. Putting that energy into car batteries would be fantastic and create a dramatic drop in pollution, even if you charge them up with coal (since the coal is being burnt anyway). Topping them up in the middle of a hot day would be a problem, but most will charge at night.
    You have a few conceptual errors there. Energy is not free. It is true that most powerplants obtain their greatest efficiency at full load but your reasoning on how power is placed on the grid is wrong. There are basically three different types of power plants; base, intermittant and peaker. Nuclear, coal and sometimes but rarely natural gas units will fall under the base loaded category. Base loaded plants are just that... They run at full load 24/7. Nuclear will always be base loaded with the exception of testing or bringing the units on or offline. Base loaded power plants are there to meet a utilities minimum retail load requirement. Throughout the day/night as more demand is being placed on the grid a utility will start up the intermittant power plants. The intermittant power plants usually cost more to operate than the base loaded power plants but intermittant power plants can respond quicker to changes in load than a base loaded unit. Peaker plants are usually only operated when there is a very high demand on the grid or if there are large fluctuations in demand as they have the worst heat rate but are also able to rapidly respond to changes in load (the exception here being hydro power as dams are very cost efficient). If more demand is being placed on the grid at night than what the base units can handle than the intermittant units will make up the load. However, utilites are required to keep some rolling reserve on the grid in case a unit trips so a intermittant unit might be running at minimum load anyway. As far as pollution is concerned the intermittant units are usually the cleanest as they are mainly combined cycle natural gas units that run at greater than 60% efficiency. Energy will never be dumped (i.e. to the cooling tower) as it can be sold to other utilities... even in other states (except Texas as they are on their own grid). I have attached a picture that shows the different power grids.

    https://www.ercot.com/content/news/m...ions_color.jpg

    BTW, if you are into renewables I just wanted to mention that wind power for the most part is a joke. Don't buy into T. Boone Picken's smoke and mirrors. The grid will never be able to handle the rapid changes in power on the large scale. Regulations require that some form of rolling reserve (in other words, a fossil fuel plant) is required for wind power as its generation chages rapidly! Push geothermal, solar and nuclear. Push that all new homes are required to have solar panels.

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    Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.
    Wind and Solar couple dot energy storage? You mean this: V2G?

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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.
    Interesting, but capacitors only store Vdc... it would most likely have to be converted back to Vac. Not only that but it most likely would have to be stepped up to 230KVac unless they are going to run dedicated lower voltage lines... that would be very expensive. It's not very practical. Utilities would be all over it if it were. Being able to store power is the equivalent of having another generation unit. The only way utilities are able to store energy currently is with dams. Some dams have the capability of pumping the downstream water back up into the reservoir... This uses more energy than what is recovered but it allows for supplementing power during peak load conditions. Personally, I think the most cost effective method for going green is requiring that all new homes be built with solar panels. The cost of the solar panels could be financed with the house. We have the technology and it could be implemented immediately. This would be very practical for everyone except the city and states as they would lose tax revenue from energy sales. The increased mortgage payments would be offset by a lower utility bill. Back in 2009 the utility that I work for was projecting energy prices to increase 50% by 2015... The recession may have slowed down the pace but energy prices are going to be going up. The new EPA emission requirements are forcing utilities to go to natural gas which is much cleaner but cost 10X as much to produce 1MW as compared to a coal or nuclear plant. Nuclear is an alternative but they are so expensive that a utility would be betting its existence to build one. If you hear increase talk about coal gasification it most likely will be due to this and not low oil reserves.

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    I'm very skeptical of vehicle-to-grid ideas for 2 reasons: You don't want to go to your car and find out you don't have enough power to get where you're going, and cycling the battery is very hard on it, and the wear on the battery may be more expensive than the electricity.

    What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.

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    Why has no one mentioned Bio Diesel? With older TDIs, you are able to convert the fuel systems to run off of 40-50-80, even 90% bio-diesel. Or WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) that you can get for free at most restaurants? While not yet "approved" for the 2.0 TDIs, I've read that several people are running their VWs on any of those and getting well over 45 mpg. Regardless of what you drive, you're still driving and that will never be green. The Prius is probably great for in town driving, but is wholly unattractive to me. Resale, after the Toyota recall/"acceler-gate" issues, seems to have fallen off. With cars in and of themselves being bad investments, I would rather drive something that I'm comfortable in, with the possibility of not losing as much of my shirt when it comes to resell. We shopped and got 0% financing on a 2010 TDI Sportwagen. We then put the money we were "saving" on the financing to extend the warranty for 2 years past the payoff of the car. Bumper to Bumper for 7 years, all money paid going to principle, 40+mpg, room for the dog, and heated seats :-). Your wife might have other needs, but mine went into the dealership wanting to hate the VW. She's the one who drives it daily with a smile!
    What I do for a living doesn't define me....

  78. #78
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    It's not that bad

    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    I'm very skeptical of vehicle-to-grid ideas for 2 reasons: You don't want to go to your car and find out you don't have enough power to get where you're going, and cycling the battery is very hard on it, and the wear on the battery may be more expensive than the electricity.

    What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.
    I'm sure they will have some sort of management for that. It would be world class stupid not to.

    They have NiMH and LiIon battery management down pretty well these days.

    IIRC, the Prius won't let the battery get below 20% or above 80% of total cell capacity. When you stay in that range, they last a very long time. Ever notice that there isn't a huge rash of failed Prius batteries after being on the road for 10+ years? There are some failures, but not many.

    When folks think of battery failures, I think they have in their minds that electric (and electric assist) cars are like their battery powered drills. Everybody I know runs their drill batteries down to zero then charges them... or they leave the batteries off the chargers for months on end, which kills NiMH and NiCad batteries like crazy. No wonder a drill battery seems to only be useful for 2 or 3 years.

    In a related issue, I read somewhere that a laptop battery will run for many more years if you just tweak the power management to not allow it to get under 20% charge... if you set it to shut your computer down before it gets that low.

    In my case, I have a 23 mile commute each way. If I drove in a Nissan Leaf with a 100 mile range, in theory I would use half the battery in one day (not counting running the AC, heat or headlights), then charge it back up at night in my garage (ha! you should see my garage! That isn't going to happen any time soon!). I think there is plenty of cushion in that spec to cover my needs.

    It would for sure cover my wife's needs. She works from home, and only really goes out for errands to the shipping company and to pick up and drop off the kids from preschool. She only puts like 5k or 6k miles a year on her car. A tank of gas in her Audi goes for about 2 and a half weeks.

    With all this whining about batteries and range, folks forget that there is almost zero maintenance on an electric car. No timing belts (which is a $1200 job on my cars), 3k-5k mile oil changes, no plugs, belts, cams, valvetrains, piston rings, crank and rod bearings, tensioners, idlers, water pumps or junk like that. Only batteries and tires for normal wear-out maintenance parts. These things are pretty dead simple. I think it might be commonplace in the future to see electric cars with 300k miles on them without major failures. Seems like these days, keeping a car over 200k miles means you get into the really expensive work that makes the car useless (although I had 250k+ miles on my GTi before I sold it, and it was still in decent shape).

    Actually, some power company was working on battery banks. They would buy up used hybrid and electric vehicle batteries when their capacity got down below 50% of new and store them in a giant battery bank to absorb the extra energy from solar and wind production, to be let back onto the smart grid when the sun went down and the wind stopped blowing.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 02-14-2011 at 02:21 PM.

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    The first time I heard the notion of "V2G" I literally laughed out loud. Not only is it a technical disaster - even forgetting the wear-n-tear on current battery technology, the inefficiency of the charge/discharge cycle and copper losses of transmission would be immense - Orwellian tendrils of this nature are socially catastrophic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.
    A new generation of reactors is being developed called Gas-cooled fast reactor. They should cost considerably less to build and are safer than water cooled reactors.

    Speaking of nuclear waste, did you know that spent nuclear fuel can be recycled. What causes the reactor fuel to be considered end of life is not that all of the uranium has decayed but that neutron absorbing elements (xenon and samarium) have built up in the fuel from the fission process. Roughly 40% of the core at end of life is still good but in the US we do not recycle the fuel it is just stored on site. I guess it doesn't really matter though with a decay half life of around 700,000 years (U-235 has a pretty long shelf life) this may change when/if we need it.

    Some more rattling off of useless knowledge.... Many people don't know this but coal plants actually emit more radiation than a nuclear plant. Uranium is naturally occurring in coal. When the coal is burned the uranium is released. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-nuclear-waste

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajun Rich
    We are shopping for a new car for her. It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute. I already tried to put her on a commuter bike. She is not having that. I am looking for some reviews from people who drive these cars not the radical fanatics. Any helps tips or advice would be great.
    Have you decided on which car to get?

  82. #82
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    TDI's are nice

    other options Toyota Yaris, Mazda 2 cheap maintenance, excellent gas mileage as well

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    A little late in the game, but I've commuted 50 miles a day in an older generation B4 TDI

    I get around 800 miles per 18 gallon tank, depending on how I drive (which is never slow).

    Putting a two bike rack on the roof barely put a dent in my freeway fuel economy.

    When a TDI breaks, it usually breaks hard, but still let's say you're doing a new injection pump for a couple grand, amortize that out over the mileage you get out of it, and its hardly pennies per mile. Still from what I've read, less painful than replacing all the costly electric crap inside these new hybrid cars.

    German cars are designed to be maintained. They aren'y built for lazyasses who change their oil once every 6 months / 10,000 miles and then wonder why it breaks. Thats what Ford, GM, Toyota, etc are for, and that's why they drive the way (rubbery and indifferent) they do. Not implying anything toward anyone, just saying.

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    Is that the thinking on VWs now?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtec
    German cars are designed to be maintained. They aren'y built for lazyasses who change their oil once every 6 months / 10,000 miles and then wonder why it breaks. Thats what Ford, GM, Toyota, etc are for, and that's why they drive the way (rubbery and indifferent) they do. Not implying anything toward anyone, just saying.
    I drove a 1985 VW GTI that I bought new for 12 years. Oil and filter changes were always 3 months or 3000 miles and wasn't even remotely a "lazyass" about maintaining it but I was always "maintaining" that thing with new parts even before the warranty ran out. And VW parts are generally expensive and if you don't do your own work so is the service!

    In speaking constantly to VW drivers since I sold that car, it has been repeatedly brought to my attention that VW has not improved the reliability and dependability of their cars in the years since. It's not like they're highly stressed unreliable performance machines, they're just crappy. I like how VWs drive and would like to drive one again but I wouldn't want to actually own one again unless I was planning on selling it within 3 years of it being new. Even then, many owners of new VWs have issues with their cars too.

    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ings-by-brand/

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    Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car.

    Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.

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    They all look like good cars

    Quote Originally Posted by rockhopperss
    Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car.

    Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.
    The Cobalt had very bad crash ratings but the Cruze looks good in that area. The new Cruze, Elantra, Sonata and Optima look like sweet cars with very good fuel economy. Economically the Cruze, Optima and Elantra are probably better values than any hybrid or diesel, at least at present fuel prices. Though the upcoming Optima Hybrid looks promising. Now that the Middle East is in incredible turmoil and it's feasible our oil imports could be radically reduced in favor of a growing China and India OR prices could rise precipitously it's time we start doing something about breaking our addiction to using vast oceans of imported oil and driving within our means.

  87. #87
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    Heh....

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    I drove a 1985 VW GTI that I bought new for 12 years. Oil and filter changes were always 3 months or 3000 miles and wasn't even remotely a "lazyass" about maintaining it but I was always "maintaining" that thing with new parts even before the warranty ran out. And VW parts are generally expensive and if you don't do your own work so is the service!

    In speaking constantly to VW drivers since I sold that car, it has been repeatedly brought to my attention that VW has not improved the reliability and dependability of their cars in the years since. It's not like they're highly stressed unreliable performance machines, they're just crappy. I like how VWs drive and would like to drive one again but I wouldn't want to actually own one again unless I was planning on selling it within 3 years of it being new. Even then, many owners of new VWs have issues with their cars too.

    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ings-by-brand/
    Not my experience at all. I maintained my Dubs well, but had very few real issues. I had a clutch go out at 130k miles, then another at 170k because my pushrod seal leaked tranny oil on the clutch, but that was the only real expensive issue I had.

    I guess my Audi's steering rack seals went out, and that wasn't cheap. At least it was under warranty.

    Heck, my mom's Toyota Corolla had a complete auto tranny failure at 30k miles, and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles. Yeah, Toyota is further up the reliability chain than VW/Audi, but they aren't bad in my experience.

    I gotta say, my GTi looked way better at 240k miles and 14 years than my mom's Corolla did at half that age.

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    Check out my dubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhopperss
    Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car.

    Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.
    It's the proverbial white elephant; neither hybrids nor diesels can match the economy and environmental friendliness of the average econo car; doubly so if said econo car is slightly used ("recycling" + letting someone else suffer the steepest part of the depreciation curve).

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    Ymmv

    ...as always. I would say the dependability trends for VW are improving a little in recent years while Toyota's have clearly been going the other way. Cars from neither company would be my first choice today based on results in that area though. Given the Camry-ization of the new Passat though, I think they're clearly trying to emulate the wrong company. But that's nothing new, the jokers at VW America once tried to "Malibuize" the late 70s American built Rabbit with softer suspension and crappier interior materials to try to make it appeal to more Americans. Of course they ruined the Teutonic essence of the car until they screwed their heads back on and started selling the first Rabbit GTIs here. Then once the Pennsylvania plant was producing really good cars they closed that plant and again produced much worse Mexican built cars for a long time.

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    In my more than anecdotal experience, even today, Toyota/Lexus still builds/sells the best quality cars in the (US) market, and VWAG, still some of the worst. Sure the gap isn't as big as it used to be, but it's still sizable.

    Sure, one can't expect an RS6 to be as reliable or carefree as a Camry or Tacoma but an A4 or Passat? Yeah, one can and should expect it yet VWAG simply has issues delivering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles.
    Umm...how is that possible?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Umm...how is that possible?
    Yes, catalytic converters fail when exposed to gas. So, if you are having misfiring from another failed component, spark plug, wires, coils, the cat will eventually fail soon. Good thing the emission system is required by law to be under warranty for 100,000 miles.

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    VW By Far! Chances are that it wont get recalled like the 6 million toyota's

    By the way i drive a gas 06 Rabbit and still get 29mpg

    Just my .02

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    It's the proverbial white elephant; neither hybrids nor diesels can match the economy and environmental friendliness of the average econo car; doubly so if said econo car is slightly used ("recycling" + letting someone else suffer the steepest part of the depreciation curve).
    Yup. But it doesn't appease their left-leaning superiority complex through the image that it conveys, so they keep buying diesels and hybrids from companies that focus their marketing on the natural fiber crowd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Heck, my mom's Toyota Corolla had a complete auto tranny failure at 30k miles, and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Umm...how is that possible?
    I bet there is an underlying cause. Maybe the shop contaminated the O2 sensor when they pulled the tranny and it threw a code 10K miles later after it burned up. Sounds odd that a tranny would go out at 30K. I had a non-mechanically inclined buddy that occasionally would do his own oil changes. He would drain the oil, put the plug in, and fill the motor back up with oil. At roughly 60K his tranny went out. It turned out that he was draining the tranny and filling up the engine (with excessive oil... double whammy!). The tranny was replaced (under warranty!!) and the car is still running to this day with 120K on it. My daily driver is a 2002 Toyota Camry with 190K that I have owned since new. The only thing I have done to it is install a K&N filter that I clean every 40-50K, change oil every 8K, transmission fluid every 15-50K, belt and plugs once, a couple of motor mounts, brake pads a couple of times and tires. The struts are shot and I am getting ready to change those out as well. Toyota uses Denso for their electrical components and their parts are top notch. I average 30MPG. Toyota's are reliable in my book.
    Last edited by FireLikeIYA; 02-24-2011 at 02:19 PM.

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    And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?
    Last edited by RIS; 02-24-2011 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    In my more than anecdotal experience, even today, Toyota/Lexus still builds/sells the best quality cars in the (US) market, and VWAG, still some of the worst. Sure the gap isn't as big as it used to be, but it's still sizable.

    Sure, one can't expect an RS6 to be as reliable or carefree as a Camry or Tacoma but an A4 or Passat? Yeah, one can and should expect it yet VWAG simply has issues delivering.
    I doubt that VW ever recalled as may vehicles as Toyota has lately...Today another Toyota recall with 2.17 Million vehicles....
    I'd put my money on VW as we had a legion of GTI's and Passat's in our family, both here in the US and in Europe. Nobody ever had any major issues with them...YMMV
    Current ride(s) 2011 Santa Cruz Blur LT and a Norco Threshold SL with Di2

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    That is what light weight

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS


    And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?
    ...decent aerodynamics and modest power levels get you. For whatever the debatable reasons are (safety equipment, features) cars are not that light weight and modestly powered anymore. Even the lightest Mini Cooper today weighs around 2700 lbs. dry and has well over 100 bhp as far as I can tell.

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    I'd have to ask you to

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Yup. But it doesn't appease their left-leaning superiority complex through the image that it conveys, so they keep buying diesels and hybrids from companies that focus their marketing on the natural fiber crowd.

    ...back those sentiments up if you can. Even the most thrifty "econocars" whatever that ancient term means can not match the fuel economy of turbo-diesels and hybrids and fuel economy determines the ultimate "environmental friendliness" of a car not really anything else. Please try to not come back with the myth-busted supposed Toyota Prius caused environmental destruction at the Sudbury Ontario nickel mines again too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RIS


    And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?
    Something to be said about small, lightweight and areo. Yet by today's EPA highway fuel economy ratings the Datsun is only a ~43.6 MPG gas. I'm sure its polutants are fairly high also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    Something to be said about small, lightweight and areo. Yet by today's EPA highway fuel economy ratings the Datsun is only a ~43.6 MPG gas. I'm sure its polutants are fairly high also.
    I am sure it wouldn't pass a crash test either.....

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...back those sentiments up if you can. Even the most thrifty "econocars" whatever that ancient term means can not match the fuel economy of turbo-diesels and hybrids and fuel economy determines the ultimate "environmental friendliness" of a car not really anything else. Please try to not come back with the myth-busted supposed Toyota Prius caused environmental destruction at the Sudbury Ontario nickel mines again too.
    Prius owners (the ones that don't lie, at least), have reported fuel mileage numbers to the government as low as 32 mpg:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008s...ta&model=Prius

    Top gear did even worse, getting 17.2 mpg from a Prius (a 400+ horsepower V8 BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under identical conditions):

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dKTOyiKLARk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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    And as Clarkson pointed out, there's a lot of energy consumed, that might not be readily apparent to you as you stand in the showroom basking in your own impending superiority. In addition to raping the planet to start with, the proceeds of that rape are then transported on a ginormous transport ship which pukes obscene amounts of diesel soot into the atmosphere, and so on down the chain.

    YOU may think that advertised fuel mileage is the sole criteria for environmental friendliness, but that is a hopelessly short-sighted misconception. It does a whole lot more environmental damage to dump a 4800 pound 13 mpg V8-powered F-150 pickup into a landfill and then have to build an entire Prius to replace it, than it does to simply replace an occasional starter motor or set of brake pads in the pickup to keep it out of the landfill, and not build the Prius at all.

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    The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year.

    A 16 year old F150, at 13 mpg, would burn 923 gallons of gas. At $4/gallon, that's $3692 in gas a year. It's paid for, so there is no cost for interest for a car loan. And at this age, you're losing virtually nothing in depreciation. And liability insurance is cheap.

    A 2011 Prius is probably going to set you back about $30,000. By the time you've added the interest to the loan, probably a lot more than that. According to Kelley Blue Book, the trade-in value of a 2008 Prius in good condition is about $14,000. At 45 mpg for 12,000 miles, you'll burn about 267 gallons of gas, which at $4 a gallon, is going to cost you about $1068. Plus, you're going to have to pay for full-coverage insurance because your financing a $30,000 car.

    So over three years, your taking it up the pooper to the tune of $16,000 in depreciation, for the privilege of saving $7872 in gas. Plus, your insurance is more expensive, and you're paying interest on a $30,000 car loan

    The only people who buy Prius vehicles are either really bad at math, or they are really concerned about the image that they portray. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that it has anything to do with the environment.

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    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oOvp69lnZbA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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    Did you know that the UK...

    ...imports a far smaller percentage of their oil that the USA does? They have a lot of oil of their own in the North Sea and they use far less oil per capita than we do. Make no mistake the vast amount of the oil we use is for transportation and most of that oil use goes into motor gasoline not jet fuel or diesel or other transportation fuel. We are captive to Venezeula and Russia and Saudi Arabia and so on simply because we choose to drive a lot of big heavy personal vehicles for a lot of miles.

    Clarkson goes on about the Prius because it's entertaining TV. It would be really boring to watch a report about a Prius otherwise, there's no clouds of tire smoke billowing from it. If you're getting 17 or 32 MPG from one (esp. imperial gallons) there is something seriously wrong with the car or driver's technique. But 17 MPG is still probably 4 times what they get in reality with their other test cars.

    I don't evangelize on the environmental aspects of oil use even that's a huge problem but it's the economic and security problem of importing 3/4 of our oil used for transportation that is far more pressing. To put our oil problem in perspective I recommend reading a few of Thomas L. Friedman's columns on the subject.

    If Not Now, When?

    By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
    Published: February 22, 2011

    What’s unfolding in the Arab world today is the mother of all wake-up calls. And what the voice on the other end of the line is telling us is clear as a bell:

    “America, you have built your house at the foot of a volcano. That volcano is now spewing lava from different cracks and is rumbling like it’s going to blow. Move your house!” In this case, “move your house” means “end your addiction to oil.”

    No one is rooting harder for the democracy movements in the Arab world to succeed than I am. But even if things go well, this will be a long and rocky road. The smart thing for us to do right now is to impose a $1-a-gallon gasoline tax, to be phased in at 5 cents a month beginning in 2012, with all the money going to pay down the deficit. Legislating a higher energy price today that takes effect in the future, notes the Princeton economist Alan Blinder, would trigger a shift in buying and investment well before the tax kicks in. With one little gasoline tax, we can make ourselves more economically and strategically secure, help sell more Chevy Volts and free ourselves to openly push for democratic values in the Middle East without worrying anymore that it will harm our oil interests. Yes, it will mean higher gas prices, but prices are going up anyway, folks. Let’s capture some it for ourselves.

    It is about time. For the last 50 years, America (and Europe and Asia) have treated the Middle East as if it were just a collection of big gas stations: Saudi station, Iran station, Kuwait station, Bahrain station, Egypt station, Libya station, Iraq station, United Arab Emirates station, etc. Our message to the region has been very consistent: “Guys (it was only guys we spoke with), here’s the deal. Keep your pumps open, your oil prices low, don’t bother the Israelis too much and, as far as we’re concerned, you can do whatever you want out back. You can deprive your people of whatever civil rights you like. You can engage in however much corruption you like. You can preach whatever intolerance from your mosques that you like. You can print whatever conspiracy theories about us in your newspapers that you like. You can keep your women as illiterate as you like. You can create whatever vast welfare-state economies, without any innovative capacity, that you like. You can undereducate your youth as much as you like. Just keep your pumps open, your oil prices low, don’t hassle the Jews too much — and you can do whatever you want out back.”

    It was that attitude that enabled the Arab world to be insulated from history for the last 50 years — to be ruled for decades by the same kings and dictators. Well, history is back. The combination of rising food prices, huge bulges of unemployed youth and social networks that are enabling those youths to organize against their leaders is breaking down all the barriers of fear that kept these kleptocracies in power.

    But fasten your seat belts. This is not going to be a joy ride because the lid is being blown off an entire region with frail institutions, scant civil society and virtually no democratic traditions or culture of innovation. The United Nations’ Arab Human Development Report 2002 warned us about all of this, but the Arab League made sure that that report was ignored in the Arab world and the West turned a blind eye. But that report — compiled by a group of Arab intellectuals led by Nader Fergany, an Egyptian statistician — was prophetic. It merits re-reading today to appreciate just how hard this democratic transition will be. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/op...hen?&st=Search

  108. #108
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    That is pretty dodgy logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    And as Clarkson pointed out, there's a lot of energy consumed, that might not be readily apparent to you as you stand in the showroom basking in your own impending superiority. In addition to raping the planet to start with, the proceeds of that rape are then transported on a ginormous transport ship which pukes obscene amounts of diesel soot into the atmosphere, and so on down the chain.

    YOU may think that advertised fuel mileage is the sole criteria for environmental friendliness, but that is a hopelessly short-sighted misconception. It does a whole lot more environmental damage to dump a 4800 pound 13 mpg V8-powered F-150 pickup into a landfill and then have to build an entire Prius to replace it, than it does to simply replace an occasional starter motor or set of brake pads in the pickup to keep it out of the landfill, and not build the Prius at all.
    Who exactly is dumping a perfectly good F-150 in a landfill and then building a brand new Prius to replace it? One could still own an F-150 but just drive it less to use less gas. I don't think anyone is trying to grab your truck (or your guns) and throw it in a landfill so chill the f&ck out about it.

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    What about if you...

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year.

    A 16 year old F150, at 13 mpg, would burn 923 gallons of gas. At $4/gallon, that's $3692 in gas a year. It's paid for, so there is no cost for interest for a car loan. And at this age, you're losing virtually nothing in depreciation. And liability insurance is cheap.

    A 2011 Prius is probably going to set you back about $30,000. By the time you've added the interest to the loan, probably a lot more than that. According to Kelley Blue Book, the trade-in value of a 2008 Prius in good condition is about $14,000. At 45 mpg for 12,000 miles, you'll burn about 267 gallons of gas, which at $4 a gallon, is going to cost you about $1068. Plus, you're going to have to pay for full-coverage insurance because your financing a $30,000 car.

    So over three years, your taking it up the pooper to the tune of $16,000 in depreciation, for the privilege of saving $7872 in gas. Plus, your insurance is more expensive, and you're paying interest on a $30,000 car loan

    The only people who buy Prius vehicles are either really bad at math, or they are really concerned about the image that they portray. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that it has anything to do with the environment.

    ...sell your gas guzzler whatever it may be, instead of throwing it in a landfill, take the money and buy a used Prius. That kind of screws up all your financial and environmental calculations doesn't it.

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    Back to TDI vs Prius.

    With today's $4/ gallon gas, $4.50 diesel, 15,000 miles/year, and average fuel economy data from consumers on fueleconomy.gov (48.6 MPG gas & 34.1 MPG diesel)


    Prius $1235 Gas Cost/year
    TDI $1918 Diesel Cost/year



    Now consider 2020's $8/ gallon gas, $8.99 diesel that Kenneth Worth, author of "Peak Oil" predicts.

    Prius $2469 Gas Cost/year
    TDI $3956 Diesel Cost/year

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Clarkson goes on about the Prius because it's entertaining TV. It would be really boring to watch a report about a Prius otherwise, there's no clouds of tire smoke billowing from it. If you're getting 17 or 32 MPG from one (esp. imperial gallons) there is something seriously wrong with the car or driver's technique. But 17 MPG is still probably 4 times what they get in reality with their other test cars.
    Not exactly. As I pointed out, the 400+ horsepower V8-powered BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under IDENTICAL conditions. Same course, same speed, same distance, and they ran both cars at the same time. Identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    Back to TDI vs Prius.

    With today's $4/ gallon gas, $4.50 diesel, 15,000 miles/year, and average fuel economy data from consumers on fueleconomy.gov (48.6 MPG gas & 34.1 MPG diesel)


    Prius $1235 Gas Cost/year
    TDI $1918 Diesel Cost/year



    Now consider 2020's $8/ gallon gas, $8.99 diesel that Kenneth Worth, author of "Peak Oil" predicts.

    Prius $2469 Gas Cost/year
    TDI $3956 Diesel Cost/year

    And in 2020, there won't be any $30,000 Prius vehicles. I predict in the year 2020, that a new Prius will be more like $60,000.

    Any way you slice it, the results will always be the same.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Not exactly. As I pointed out, the 400+ horsepower V8-powered BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under IDENTICAL conditions. Same course, same speed, same distance, and they ran both cars at the same time. Identical.
    Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Check out Clarkson's review of the Prius.




    Thanks, my friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.
    20 mpg?! Holy crap, that car is a performer!

    My '73 Fleetwood gets 9 mpg on a good day, my friends!

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    You don't suppose Toyota would have a vested interest in entering bogus fuel mileage numbers to the www.fueleconomy.gov web site for the purpose of jacking up the average numbers to try to sell more vehicles, do you:

    The low numbers can't be faked by Toyota, and they hover around 32 mpg or so.

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    I supose that you want to get a best comsuption, hybrid have to drive in long city tours to run by electric motor and in roads to load batteries, on the other hand, Tdi have to drive in highways to get a better comsuption.

    Think about your travel.

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    Not really

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    You don't suppose Toyota would have a vested interest in entering bogus fuel mileage numbers to the www.fueleconomy.gov web site for the purpose of jacking up the average numbers to try to sell more vehicles, do you:

    The low numbers can't be faked by Toyota, and they hover around 32 mpg or so.
    As I said before in this thread I routinely get well over 50 MPG with mine. There is a technique to it in a Prius though, called pulse and glide and it's easy to learn. Even so, I have never averaged anywhere near as low as 32 MPG over a tank's worth of gas even while really hammering on the thing trying to get the worse fuel economy possible. To do that by the way puts you in grave danger of getting speeding tickets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAocwToZWVQ

  120. #120
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    Not always

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipo_btt
    I supose that you want to get a best comsuption, hybrid have to drive in long city tours to run by electric motor and in roads to load batteries, on the other hand, Tdi have to drive in highways to get a better comsuption.

    Think about your travel.
    I averaged over 70 MPG in a 100+ mile highway trip by drafting a friend. You can do even better drafting a large vehicle like an 18 wheeler truck. Once up to highway speeds it's mostly air resistance that drops fuel economy in any car and drafting can drastically reduce that. I'm not sure of the legality of hugging the bumper of the car in front of you though. In the future electronics will facilitate safe drafting between cars on the highway.

    With a normal IC engined car a larger throttle opening as in highway driving will usually make the engine more efficient by reducing what engineers call pumping losses in the engine. Generally though roads with 40-50 MPH speeds and minimal stops produce the best mileage in a Prius. Once you have an MPG meter and start paying attention to this stuff you notice how all the variables like wind direction and wind speed affect MPG. Ever notice how much more energy you expend riding your road bike into the wind versus having at your back? Ore how easy it is to pedal at the middle of a peloton?

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    Yeah, it strains credibilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.
    ..to say the least.

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    Diesel vs.Gas

    Itís a common misconception that diesel is more simple to refine, so it should be less expensive. Diesel is higher density fuel and it takes more oil to make, and it is denser in energy than gas. So, if a diesel car and a gas car get the same MPG, then the gas car is about 12% more energy efficient. This explains why the Prius is slightly better in MPG, but a lot better for oil use (see my post on fueleconomy.gov) and that is a lot better for the US Economy.

    Revolution in Libya has unearthed the issue that it takes 3 Saudi barrels of oil to make the same amount of diesel as one barrel of Libyan oil. Europe is screwed. I saw this on http://www.theoildrum.com


    Diesel does have the potential to be more energy efficient, but the engines are turbo charged, more complex, more expensive, and harder to meet the most stringent US emission standards.

  123. #123
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    Please stop lying. Please. You're embarrassing yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Prius owners (the ones that don't lie, at least), have reported fuel mileage numbers to the government as low as 32 mpg:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008s...ta&model=Prius

    Top gear did even worse, getting 17.2 mpg from a Prius (a 400+ horsepower V8 BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under identical conditions):

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dKTOyiKLARk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    If you drive a Prius with your foot to the floor all the time, you get 32 MPG. If you drove a Civic that way, you would get 18 MPG. I regularly drive a Highlander Hybrid loaded with 400 pounds of tools, batteries and parts, and get 27 MPG without driving lightly. That thing is fricking quick, too considering it gets such good mileage for a 4000 pound truck that is an aerodynamic brick (compared to a passenger car). I have several friends with 1st and second generation Priuses, and I've seen myself that they get at least 45 mpg in real world driving. One friend with a 2nd gen Prius has a 55 MPG lifetime average. It's not hard to get good mileage in a Prius, especially if you know how to hit the regeneration right.

    Top Gear was just repeating the same stupid discredited POS report from a marketing company funded by an oil company you did, you troll. Yes, if you drive track style all out, you get crappy mileage. Duh. You're just repeating 'what you heard'.

    You obviously have not spent any actual road time in a Prius. Again, you have no interest in reality and just keep grinding your ax against anything you don't want to agree with. I hope your police work is more objective.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 02-28-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  124. #124
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    2001 Prius gets same MPG after 10 years and 207,000+ miles

    Interesting article on how the first generation Prius sold here has held up long term i.e. ten years later.

    The 200,000-mile question: How does the Toyota Prius hold up?

    Hybrids like the Toyota Prius may save money on fuel, but car shoppers have long wondered how those batteries hold up over the long run. In fact, weíre often asked, ďWhen do the batteries need to be replaced, and how much will they cost?Ē These questions are even more important now that the Prius has been on the market for 10 years--there are many used models on the market. But is it risky to buy a used hybrid?

    Early adopters of the hybrids took a risk with the new technology. The lifetime of the batteries and the cost to replace them wasnít clear. After all, when it comes to standard car batteries, most donít last more than a few years. And anyone who has a laptop that is a few years old is most likely aware how significantly battery life can degrade with age.

    Based on data from over 36,000 Toyota Prius hybrids in our annual survey, we find that the Prius has outstanding reliability and low ownership costs. But we wanted to know if the effectiveness of the battery degraded over the long run. So we hooked up a 2002 Toyota Prius with nearly 208,000 miles on the clock to our testing instruments and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius we tested 10 years ago.

    Conclusion: We found very little difference in performance when we tested fuel economy and acceleration.

    Our testers were also amazed how much the car drove like the new one we tested 10 years ago. It certainly didnít seem like a car that had traveled nearly the distance to the Moon. We were also surprised to learn that the engine, transmission, and even shocks were all original.

    If the battery ever did need to be replaced, it would run between $2,200 and $2,600 from a Toyota dealer, but itís doubtful that anyone would purchase a new battery for such an old car. Most will probably choose to buy a low-mileage unit from a salvage yard, just as they would with an engine or transmission. We found many units available for around $500.

    So is an old Prius a still a good value? We think so.
    More: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...-performs.html

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    Great article thank you!
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    Even though I loath hybrids, I have to admit I'm utterly shocked how reliable and durable the Prius has turned out to be; not just the batteries but the electronics and the whole of the drive system. Only Toyota could have pulled it off so well.

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    Get a VW, my 2 cents.

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    I wonder how the OP is doing with his car shopping?

  129. #129
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    I'm kinda with you

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Even though I loath hybrids, I have to admit I'm utterly shocked how reliable and durable the Prius has turned out to be; not just the batteries but the electronics and the whole of the drive system. Only Toyota could have pulled it off so well.
    The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.

    However...

    I'm always amazed at the myths and outright lies that get slung at Hybrids. The batteries are mega toxic... bullshiz. They are kinda toxic, but far less toxic than the mountains of gasoline and refining processing they save over their lifetime.... and the batteries are 100% recyclable... and seem to last a very long time due to really good battery management. The battery (the older NiMH battery... they use LiIon now) has less nickel in it than the galvanized body of a mid sized truck. The get close to the claimed MPG in the real world once you learn to drive them. And while they are not quick, they are not any slower than the economy 4 cylinder cars we drove in the 80s, and they feel torquey as heck in town.

    Basically, the naysayers (RIS) are a bunch of wusses.... afraid of change... afraid of anything that is different. They want change to fail. They will bag on anything that challenges their world view.

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    Batter toxicity

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.

    However...

    I'm always amazed at the myths and outright lies that get slung at Hybrids. The batteries are mega toxic... bullshiz. They are kinda toxic, but far less toxic than the mountains of gasoline and refining processing they save over their lifetime.... and the batteries are 100% recyclable... and seem to last a very long time due to really good battery management. The battery (the older NiMH battery... they use LiIon now) has less nickel in it than the galvanized body of a mid sized truck. The get close to the claimed MPG in the real world once you learn to drive them. And while they are not quick, they are not any slower than the economy 4 cylinder cars we drove in the 80s, and they feel torquey as heck in town.

    Let's not forget how incredibly toxic to the nervous system the lead from lead-acid batteries are. There's many multiples of the amount of lead from car batteries around than there is nickel from Ni-Mh hybrid batteries yet we live with that. RIS do you have any pictures from lead mines? Everyone should remind people they know not to landfill any battery for safety though and because they can all be recycled.

    Lead, Nickel, LithiumóIn That Order

    The need for more robust battery technologies to power vehicles and their accessories prompted Environmental Defense to conduct a three-month research effort in 2005 to examine environmental impacts related to the extraction, manufacture, use, and disposal of nickel metal hydride batteries, as well as lithium ionówhich many consider to be the battery of choice in the next five years. Environmental Defense then compared those impacts to lead acid. "Our initial conclusion is that lead is the worst, nickel is next, and lithium is the least harmful," said Thomas. This will greatly depend on what materials are combined with lithium, and how toxic those materials are. Using cobalt, for example, in lithium ion batteries would be problematic. It will also depend on the emerging recycling technologies.

    While not nearly as dangerous as lead, nickel is not without some environmental risks, and is considered a probable carcinogen. There are also concerns about the environmental impacts of nickel mining, and apparent challenges with fully recycling the nickel used in hybrid batteries.

    Hybrids are still sold an relatively low numbers. As a result, large-scale environmental threats from hybrid batteries are not immediate. Hybrids were introduced in the United States in 2000. Hybrid batteries are under warranty for eight to 10 years, depending on the manufacturer and your location, most likely won't fail for several years beyond the warranty. In the first few years, hybrids sold in low numbersógrowing from less than 10,000 in 2000, to 35,000 in 2002. By all calculations, the challenge of recycling hybrid batteries is at least five years away.
    More: http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot

    Basically, the naysayers (RIS) are a bunch of wusses.... afraid of change... afraid of anything that is different. They want change to fail. They will bag on anything that challenges their world view.
    I don't think they're wusses they're just feeling angry at anyone that may be doing the right thing versus their own imagining that there's no problem. It reminds me of a very overweight friend that despised runners with an irrational rage. When he would drive by one running near a road he would lower his window and shout furious irrational insults at them. I don't think he really hated runners he hated himself for not getting off his comfortable ass and exercising to lose weight and feel better. He died around 10 years ago of a heart attack so I don't think it was a good coping strategy for his life.

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    The Prius DOES have a lead-acid battery. It's the one used to start the gasoline-burning engine under the hood. Just like every other car on the road.

    But the Prius ALSO has a large nickel metal hydride battery, which normal (non-hybrid) cars DON'T have.

  132. #132
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    Actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    The Prius DOES have a lead-acid battery. It's the one used to start the gasoline-burning engine under the hood. Just like every other car on the road.

    But the Prius ALSO has a large nickel metal hydride battery, which normal (non-hybrid) cars DON'T have.
    ...the small 30 something amp-hour auxiliary lead acid battery in the Prius doesn't start the internal combustion engine. It just supplies power to all that stuff that needs it full time when the car is turned off like the clock and security system etc. and it's way smaller than an F-150 starter battery. The internal combustion engine is started by the motor/generator acting as a starter (using the hybrid NIMH battery). Back to the drawing board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.

    However...

    I'm always amazed at the myths and outright lies that get slung at Hybrids. The batteries are mega toxic... bullshiz. They are kinda toxic, but far less toxic than the mountains of gasoline and refining processing they save over their lifetime.... and the batteries are 100% recyclable... and seem to last a very long time due to really good battery management. The battery (the older NiMH battery... they use LiIon now) has less nickel in it than the galvanized body of a mid sized truck. The get close to the claimed MPG in the real world once you learn to drive them. And while they are not quick, they are not any slower than the economy 4 cylinder cars we drove in the 80s, and they feel torquey as heck in town.

    Basically, the naysayers (RIS) are a bunch of wusses.... afraid of change... afraid of anything that is different. They want change to fail. They will bag on anything that challenges their world view.
    I like Toyotas primarily because of Toyota - I have toured their plants in Japan and am well acquainted with lean manufacturing/Toyota Production system, that literally changed the entire world of manufacturing. I also owned a first-gen Tacoma and it was a phenomenal vehicle.

    I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a catastrophic financial and environmental failure. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    I like Toyotas primarily because of Toyota - I have toured their plants in Japan and am well acquainted with lean manufacturing/Toyota Production system, that literally changed the entire world of manufacturing. I also owned a first-gen Tacoma and it was a phenomenal vehicle.

    I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a catastrophic financial and environmental failure. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.
    We are selling a civic to do this. Its a 2006 that only gets 35 MPG 15MPG is a large difference. If I worked in an office all day I would commute to work via bicycle. I am a project manager for a generator company and it requires me to do physical labor all day long. Maybe when I graduate in August I will finally get that job offer I have been dreaming about and I will be able to commute daily.
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    Quite a statement

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a catastrophic financial and environmental failure. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.
    Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?

  136. #136
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    Yeah... second that

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?
    Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.

    So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?

    Also we all know the Prius is a bit more expensive than a regular compact car when new, but the difference in price vs. the gas it saves hits a breakeven point at around 12k miles... maybe 20k miles when gas is at the cheap end (which is isn't right now). So, I don't know where the financial disaster angle you cite comes from. Can you tell us how that works out?

    And hey... who's to say that you can't recycle and old Prius? They've been on the market for 10 years. You can buy them used for pretty cheap, and with plenty of miles left to go on the clock. They've been proven to be useful just as long as regular cars.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-03-2011 at 08:59 AM.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.

    So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?

    And hey... who's to say that you can't recycle and old Prius? They've been on the market for 10 years. You can buy them used for pretty cheap, and with plenty of miles left to go on the clock.
    YES, The average American goes through more e-waste then a hybrid battery would ever produce even if 100% of the battery was not reused.

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    Not sure which of the TDI's you are thinking but at least for the popular Sportwagen they are a totally different class of vehicle and don't really compare head to head. Prius is a commuter car (think Civic, Corolla) and the TDI Sportwagen more like an alternative to a Minivan/Volvo/Subaru that just happens to get good mileage. We did a week long trip with 2 adults, 2 bikes, 2 kids, a full sized dog and all our winter stuff. It was a bit tight because of the room for the dog but there's no way we could have fit that all in a Prius.

    For the mileage; I've put 20k miles on it in the past 8 months averaging 38.2mpg overall with my bike racks on at all times. I have a daily 35 mile commute with plenty of stop and go and I do lots of road trips for work. Just got back from a 1200 mile freeway drive and averaged 42.9 driving 75mph.

    The big downside is that Diesel is crazy expensive right now, $.50/gallon more. So if mpg is your only concern and you don't care about handling and don't need a ton of space get the Prius. But if you like driving even a little and need some space the TDI Sportwagen is a great option. I don't personally like the TDI Golf at all as you loose all the cargo space and after the difference in fuel price you should have bought the GTI and had a lot more fun!
    And +1 for resale, TDI's really hold their value well.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajun Rich
    We are selling a civic to do this. Its a 2006 that only gets 35 MPG 15MPG is a large difference. If I worked in an office all day I would commute to work via bicycle. I am a project manager for a generator company and it requires me to do physical labor all day long. Maybe when I graduate in August I will finally get that job offer I have been dreaming about and I will be able to commute daily.
    Rich, if I understand what you're saying, you may not have accurately read what SAL9K posted. He's talking about BUYING something like a 2006 Civic INSTEAD of causing Toyota to build another Prius for you to buy. Doing what SAL and I are recommending is better for the environment and much less expensive too.

    The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year. Your Civic gets about 35 mpg. If you buy a Prius and drive it the same way that you drive your Civic, you'll get about 35 mpg too. But for the purpose of discussion, even if we use the overly-optomistic number of 50mpg for the Prius, it breaks down like this:

    1) At 35 mpg, the Civic will burn about 343 gallons of gas a year. At $4 a gallon, that's about $1370 in gas a year.

    2) At an alleged 50 mpg , the Prius would burn about 240 gallons of gas a year. At $4 a gallon, that's about $960 a year. If you're bad at math, that would appear to be a savings of a whopping $410 a year ($34 a month).

    BUT:

    I'm assuming that at 5 years old, the Civic is paid for, which means that you have no lien holder requiring you to pay for full coverage insurance. You're also not paying interest on a loan. A 5 year old Civic has also already taken the bulk of it's depreciation loss- it's not costing you much to continue to own it. The dealer is only going to give you about $8500 for it when you trade it in anyway.

    As we pointed out above, a $30,000 Prius will be worth less than half that in about three years. Plus, you'll be paying interest on the car loan, which will make the Prius cost a whole heck of a lot more than $30,000. Plus, you'll have to carry full coverage insurance on it.

    In round numbers, trading the Civic in on a new Prius would cost you about $20,000 over three years, in the vain attempt to save $34 a month.

  140. #140
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    Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.

    So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?

    Also we all know the Prius is a bit more expensive than a regular compact car when new, but the difference in price vs. the gas it saves hits a breakeven point at around 12k miles... maybe 20k miles when gas is at the cheap end (which is isn't right now). So, I don't know where the financial disaster angle you cite comes from. Can you tell us how that works out?

    And hey... who's to say that you can't recycle and old Prius? They've been on the market for 10 years. You can buy them used for pretty cheap, and with plenty of miles left to go on the clock. They've been proven to be useful just as long as regular cars.

    Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
    Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...

    The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....

    They reason they are cheap used is because the battery pack is on it's last legs and needs replacing, costing more $$$ than anyone can justify in savings over a small regular gas/ clean diesel powered car...
    The problem in the US is that consumers are being screwed by the EPA, the car companies and the Feds, as there are very limited (NO) choices in small clean diesel powered cars like there are in the rest of the world, I.E Europe....The only reason European car companies build hybrids at all is because the gullable American public thinks these are the Holy Grail...
    Sales in Europe of hybrid's pale in comparison to diesel powered cars.
    The Chevy Volt is proving to be a dud as well proving that car companies forced by the Feds to build unviable products result in disaster for them....
    YMMV
    Current ride(s) 2011 Santa Cruz Blur LT and a Norco Threshold SL with Di2

  141. #141
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    The Prius is a toxic vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW
    Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
    Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...

    The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....

    They reason they are cheap used is because the battery pack is on it's last legs and needs replacing, costing more $$$ than anyone can justify in savings over a small regular gas/ clean diesel powered car...
    The problem in the US is that consumers are being screwed by the EPA, the car companies and the Feds, as there are very limited (NO) choices in small clean diesel powered cars like there are in the rest of the world, I.E Europe....The only reason European car companies build hybrids at all is because the gullable American public thinks these are the Holy Grail...
    Sales in Europe of hybrid's pale in comparison to diesel powered cars.
    The Chevy Volt is proving to be a dud as well proving that car companies forced by the Feds to build unviable products result in disaster for them....
    YMMV
    Actually it's not toxic no matter how many people wish it was. It's a good solid dependable car that gets the best fuel economy in the USA and lasts a long time. I'm not sure what you mean by the "consumers are being screwed by the EPA". The EPA is not preventing clean diesels from being sold here. I'd love to see more offered for sale here but it's the car companies that choose not to do so.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?
    It ain't trolling if it's true, is it?

    In objective environment and financial terms, buying a lightly/moderately used high-quality compact is far, far more environmentally friendly and much more financially prudent than buying a new hybrid. Throwing in the environmental disaster that is heavy metal mining is gravy.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW
    Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
    Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...

    The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....

    They reason they are cheap used is because the battery pack is on it's last legs and needs replacing, costing more $$$ than anyone can justify in savings over a small regular gas/ clean diesel powered car...
    The problem in the US is that consumers are being screwed by the EPA, the car companies and the Feds, as there are very limited (NO) choices in small clean diesel powered cars like there are in the rest of the world, I.E Europe....The only reason European car companies build hybrids at all is because the gullable American public thinks these are the Holy Grail...
    Sales in Europe of hybrid's pale in comparison to diesel powered cars.
    The Chevy Volt is proving to be a dud as well proving that car companies forced by the Feds to build unviable products result in disaster for them....
    YMMV

    Completely ignored the whole thread.

  144. #144
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    Wow. you bought that...

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarW
    Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
    Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...

    The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....

    They reason they are cheap used is because the battery pack is on it's last legs and needs replacing, costing more $$$ than anyone can justify in savings over a small regular gas/ clean diesel powered car...
    The problem in the US is that consumers are being screwed by the EPA, the car companies and the Feds, as there are very limited (NO) choices in small clean diesel powered cars like there are in the rest of the world, I.E Europe....The only reason European car companies build hybrids at all is because the gullable American public thinks these are the Holy Grail...
    Sales in Europe of hybrid's pale in comparison to diesel powered cars.
    The Chevy Volt is proving to be a dud as well proving that car companies forced by the Feds to build unviable products result in disaster for them....
    YMMV
    Hook. Line. Sinker.

    Do some more research.


    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy

    Completely ignored the whole thread.

    Yeah, seriously. Like the part where there is more Nickel in galvanizing a F150 body than in the battery of the Prius, and the battery is 100% bought back and elements recycled into new batteries, and do not end up in the landfill, not to mention, they aren't being replaced in significant numbers, even though many Priuses are well over the 150k mile mark.

    BTW, there are diesels all over the place here in the SF Bay Area. Love 'em too. I would probably go with a diesel given the choice for a car I had to live with day to day. A used Jetta Sportwagen TDI is on my shortlist for my next car. An Audi A4 quattro TDI is my dream car, but will probably be out of my price range until one is 7 or 8 years old with 60k miles on it or more. Only downside is, we aren't going to see manual quattros in this country. I've had enough one wheel drive cars in my life. I'm kinda over it.

    The only reason we aren't seeing Volts is because they haven't produced very many yet. I've seen three on the road myself.

    Yeah, there is a streak in folks to think they are more in the know because they believe a minority opinion. Global warming, Obama's birth certificate, supply side economics, steel toe boots... the list goes on. I guess it makes them feel smarter than everybody else.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-03-2011 at 11:26 PM.

  145. #145
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    Well why do you say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    It ain't trolling if it's true, is it?

    In objective environment and financial terms, buying a lightly/moderately used high-quality compact is far, far more environmentally friendly and much more financially prudent than buying a new hybrid. Throwing in the environmental disaster that is heavy metal mining is gravy.
    Let us decide if your reasoning holds water or not because 99.9% of the same such sentiment has been found to full of holes.

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    OscarW: you're just plain wrong on this one. You're inventing things that could've been bad with the Prius, but just haven't been found to be so. They're reliable, recyclable, efficient, and hold their value well.

    One thing, pimpbot: galvanization uses zinc- not nickel.

    LOL at the burning car scenerio. Yeah- like a normal burning car doesn't give off dangerous fumes- just hybrids.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Let us decide if your reasoning holds water or not because 99.9% of the same such sentiment has been found to full of holes.
    No. It's that hybrid drivers just hate getting called out. I wouldn't like it either. But that doesn't negate the necessity of it. Diesels are in the same category.

    NOTHING beats the objective finanical and environmental benefit of buying a slightly/moderately used high quality gasoline compact.

  148. #148
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    Called out on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    No. It's that hybrid drivers just hate getting called out. I wouldn't like it either. But that doesn't negate the necessity of it. Diesels are in the same category.

    NOTHING beats the objective finanical and environmental benefit of buying a slightly/moderately used high quality gasoline compact.

    Some people hate hybrids for weird, usually politically based, irrational and emotional reasons and have all kinds of half truths and misconceptions in their minds as regards the things. I'm not trying to avoid getting "called out" I'm just wondering what you're calling out on and so far nothing concrete has been related.

    As far as having everyone buy used cars, are you advocating that we become like Cuba where no new cars are bought and everyone just drives progressively older gas guzzlers? That would be unfortunate because it's through new car sales and the marketplace that innovation occurs and is making all cars ever more efficient. The 29 MPG 300 bhp Camaro is one example of that. Let's not even get into the loss of well paid manufacturing related jobs. Buying used cars is a great idea but obviously it's a dead-end economically.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Some people hate hybrids for weird, usually politically based, irrational and emotional reasons and have all kinds of half truths and misconceptions in their minds as regards the things. I'm not trying to avoid getting "called out" I'm just wondering what you're calling out on and so far nothing concrete has been related.
    Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).

    As far as having everyone buy used cars, are you advocating that we become like Cuba where no new cars are bought and everyone just drives progressively older gas guzzlers? That would be unfortunate because it's through new car sales and the marketplace that innovation occurs and is making all cars ever more efficient. The 29 MPG 300 bhp Camaro is one example of that. Let's not even get into the loss of well paid manufacturing related jobs. Buying used cars is a great idea but obviously it's a dead-end economically.
    I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.

    Hybrid justification under such "greater good" auspices IMO only serves to show how irrational hybrids are; they need that extra "kick" to be validated.

    I've never, ever advocated, enacted, or engaged in thought or action with the "loss of jobs" in mind. Other peoples' employment ain't my problem. I recommend that POV to others.

    Sure they're safer and better optioned today but the fact remains the MPG of compacts has not materially improved in 25 years ('85 Civic rated 27/33 vs. a '10 Civic rated 26/34.)

  150. #150
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    Nothing specific then?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).
    I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.



    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.

    Hybrid justification under such "greater good" auspices IMO only serves to show how irrational hybrids are; they need that extra "kick" to be validated.

    I've never, ever advocated, enacted, or engaged in thought or action with the "loss of jobs" in mind. Other peoples' employment ain't my problem. I recommend that POV to others.

    Sure they're safer and better optioned today but the fact remains the MPG of compacts has not materially improved in 25 years ('85 Civic rated 27/33 vs. a '10 Civic rated 26/34.)
    Correct me if I'm wrong but all used cars start out as new cars don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.

  151. #151
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    Well,it is an interesting point

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.





    Correct me if I'm wrong but all used cars start out as new cars don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.
    If new cars were more expensive and more rare, the price of used cars would go up. That would also have the effect of fewer cars ending up at the junk yard over things like a failed transmission. I see lots of cars at my local Pick-and-Pull in perfectly fine cosmetic condition (assuming the bodies are in the same condition) that probably ended up there because of some mechanical failure that made the car 'not worth fixing'.

    If used cars were in more demand, folks would be more inclined to repair major issues to keep the old girls on the road.

    The biggest environmental impact is really from production of goods of all kinds.... more things for more (overpopulated) people. Good economy usually means more environmental damage. We are using up this planet at an alarming rate.

    That said, yeah... recycling a new car for an old polluting beater isn't that horrible, IMO.... especially anything older than 1980 when o2 sensors and catalytic converters weren't mandatory.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-07-2011 at 09:15 AM.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).



    I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.

    Hybrid justification under such "greater good" auspices IMO only serves to show how irrational hybrids are; they need that extra "kick" to be validated.

    I've never, ever advocated, enacted, or engaged in thought or action with the "loss of jobs" in mind. Other peoples' employment ain't my problem. I recommend that POV to others.

    Sure they're safer and better optioned today but the fact remains the MPG of compacts has not materially improved in 25 years ('85 Civic rated 27/33 vs. a '10 Civic rated 26/34.)
    Wow. When you're right, you're right.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.
    Try the following:

    1) Go buy a new Prius.

    2) Take it down to the scrap yard and sell it for scrap (to be recycled).

    3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the earth is all cleaned up and you've become rich.




    Correct me if I'm wrong but all used cars start out as new cars don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.
    Let's use the analogy of food:

    We all need food. But if we over-consume, we run the very real risk of some pretty significant negative consequences. Like death, for example. And when it comes to the health of the environment and your personal finances, you need to understand that financing a $30,000 car to try to save $34 a month in gas does about the same thing a person's personal finances as dumping their old hoopty into a landfill and raping the environment for Prius batteries does for the environment.

    There's nothing wrong with making new cars better than old cars. And there will always be a need for SOME new cars. But we buy WAY more new cars than we need, and we dump WAY more old cars into landfills than we should.

    And I gotta say, that building and/or buying new cars because some illiterate morbidly obese unwashed mouth-breathing alcoholic fifth-generation UAW union member thinks he has a God-given right to get paid $50 an hour tossing a radio antenna mast into the trunk of 5 out of every 6 vehicles that pass his station on the assembly line, is just plain stupid. A trained monkey can do that.

  154. #154
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    To the average consumer, the truth is not as exciting as "that new car smell", or as sexually stimulating as having a car salesman blow smoke up your butt all afternoon:

    The truth is, that the cheapest car to buy, and the one that is the best for the environment, is probably the car that you already own.

  155. #155
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    Plenty of used Prius out there.

    The TDI, not so much. Don't get a 2006 or older, because the emissions are horrible. Diesels got by easy then because they were not required to meet the same emissions standard as gas burners.

  156. #156
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    Dumping old cars in landfills

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Try the following:

    1) Go buy a new Prius.

    2) Take it down to the scrap yard and sell it for scrap (to be recycled).

    3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the earth is all cleaned up and you've become rich.
    ...seems to be an ongoing theme with you but where is this done in actual practice? Old cars are recycled for their valuable steel content and for their other metals and other materials. This is done in all but the most remote of locations that don't have enough cars and infrastructure to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Let's use the analogy of food:

    We all need food. But if we over-consume, we run the very real risk of some pretty significant negative consequences. Like death, for example. And when it comes to the health of the environment and your personal finances, you need to understand that financing a $30,000 car to try to save $34 a month in gas does about the same thing a person's personal finances as dumping their old hoopty into a landfill and raping the environment for Prius batteries does for the environment.
    Again with the poor landfills. We're seriously over consuming oil in the USA now when we're the third largest producer on Earth behind Saudi Arabia and Russia yet we still need to import 3/4 of our oil needs for transport fuel. And we're heading for some pretty serious consequences such as a major economic depression, vastly increased food and consumer goods prices and so on if our Middle-East oil supply gets turned off and prices rise even more. Even using the Strategic Oil Reserve like is being talked about this very minute won't do much because of the vastness of our incredible demand for oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    There's nothing wrong with making new cars better than old cars. And there will always be a need for SOME new cars. But we buy WAY more new cars than we need, and we dump WAY more old cars into landfills than we should.

    And I gotta say, that building and/or buying new cars because some illiterate morbidly obese unwashed mouth-breathing alcoholic fifth-generation UAW union member thinks he has a God-given right to get paid $50 an hour tossing a radio antenna mast into the trunk of 5 out of every 6 vehicles that pass his station on the assembly line, is just plain stupid. A trained monkey can do that.
    More ignorant prejudice comes out: a righteous old-timey UAW hate rant. Big surprise. The Prius and VW TDI cars (subject of this thread) however are not built by UAW members. I'd like to see cars built to last longer but since they generally last 15-20 years now I'm not sure there's a need because so many technological improvements will have been made in that time period it is probably better to build another more modern one from recycled materials using ever more efficient manufacturing processes. I would love to see industries springing up that modify old cars into hybrids or electrics though.
    Last edited by tl1; 03-07-2011 at 10:25 AM.

  157. #157
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    Yeah it would be like Cuba

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    If new cars were more expensive and more rare, the price of used cars would go up. That would also have the effect of fewer cars ending up at the junk yard over things like a failed transmission. I see lots of cars at my local Pick-and-Pull in perfectly fine cosmetic condition (assuming the bodies are in the same condition) that probably ended up there because of some mechanical failure that made the car 'not worth fixing'.

    If used cars were in more demand, folks would be more inclined to repair major issues to keep the old girls on the road.

    The biggest environmental impact is really from production of goods of all kinds.... more things for more (overpopulated) people. Good economy usually means more environmental damage. We are using up this planet at an alarming rate.

    That said, yeah... recycling a new car for an old polluting beater isn't that horrible, IMO.... especially anything older than 1980 when o2 sensors and catalytic converters weren't mandatory.

    ...just with newer cars. Not something I'd be into but anything that can be done to keep older cars with good fuel economy going would probably be a good thing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails VW TDI VS Prius-cuba-taxi.jpg  


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    I'm late to the party, but will throw in my two cents. I have a bias towards diesel's, I like the highway economy, torque, and driver involvement. That said, I wouldn't touch a VW product. The TDI's are a great engine, everything else in the car is junk. I have had german cars for 20+ years and currently have an Audi A6 that came with my girlfriend. It is the 2.8, which was considered the most reliable. With a 120k on it, I won't take it out of town. If it isn't a suspension component wearing out, it is an electrical problem, or some minor engine problem, or who knows what. We call it the F***ing Audi. Servicing the thing is a nightmare, access to any components is very difficult. My mechanic just cringes when he has to touch the car.

    I don't like the Pious and would never own one, but reliability is far better, they last longer, and in town get better mileage than the TDI. They drive like an appliance with no character, but they always start.

    We are dumping the Audi and keeping my 20 year old BMW 535i. With 210k miles on it, it is far more solid and reliable than the much newer and lower mileage Audi. In the past two years, I have spent less than $1000 on maintenance and repairs on the BMW. Same reason I keep driving my 1996 Toyota Landcruiser, dismal gas mileage, but in the past 8 years and 100k miles (210k on the clock) the only non maintenance items I have replaced are the alternator and radiator.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  159. #159
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    Hybrid sales up 39% in February

    Oh woe is me!

    Toyota Prius leads the pack

    It's that time again: February 2011 sales have been tallied and hybrid vehicles posted gains of 39 percent compared to the same month last year. Overall, sales of hybrid models hit 23,263 units in February, accounting for 2.35 percent of the 989,808 vehicles sold in the U.S. last month.

    Once again, the Toyota Prius dominated the gas-electric segment, racking up 13,539 sales in February. The Honda Insight, with 1,722 units sold, captured second place. The Ford Fusion Hybrid and Honda CR-Z finished the month with sufficient sales to place third and fourth, respectively.

    With predictions that gas prices could exceed $4 per gallon by the end of this summer and possibly soar above the $5 mark by 2012, sales of hybrid vehicles should continue to rise. Want all the details? Head over to Hybrid Cars for a model-by-model breakdown of gas-electric sales for February 2011.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/07...eads-the-pack/

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.
    Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but all used cars start out as new cars don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.
    First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."

    Second, hybrids are ~2% of the market so if hybrid owners bought gasoline cars the balance you note is not possible. It should also be noted a new compact is a wash environmentally but an advantage financially (meaning, a car doesn't have to be used to better a hybrid).

    Lastly, it should be noted the Prius has ~80% of the hybrid market and we all know why it does - because it's a Toyota and it's a hybrid-only model. It exists solely as an advertisement for the owner. Hybrids just as effective have been footnotes if not absolute sales bombs because they were neither Toyotas nor standalone hybrid models - Civic hybrid, Fusion hybrid, Altima hybrid, et al.

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    You're getting farther out SAL

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.
    95% way back in 2005 isn't most cars? 6 years later with the price of steel rising it has to be even higher. While steel making is energy intensive, it's much more energy efficient to mine old cars than to mine and process iron ore and the process of making steel itself uses 45% less energy that it did two decades ago. No facts will make any difference to you though apparently as it appears stuck for all time in your head that manufacturing a car uses more oil and causes more environmental destruction than driving a car for hundreds of thousands of miles even though facts I've read don't support that notion and you've certainly offered up none to support the idea.

    Recycling metal uses about 74 percent less energy than making new steel, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. Recycled steel is cheaper as well, since new ore doesn't have to be mined to produce it. All steel produced today has at least 25 percent recycled steel in it, and some products are made entirely from recycled steel. So in addition to the economic and environmental benefits, recycling cars is a vital link in the world's industrial infrastructure. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-crusher4.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."

    Second, hybrids are ~2% of the market so if hybrid owners bought gasoline cars the balance you note is not possible. It should also be noted a new compact is a wash environmentally but an advantage financially (meaning, a car doesn't have to be used to better a hybrid).

    Lastly, it should be noted the Prius has ~80% of the hybrid market and we all know why it does - because it's a Toyota and it's a hybrid-only model. It exists solely as an advertisement for the owner. Hybrids just as effective have been footnotes if not absolute sales bombs because they were neither Toyotas nor standalone hybrid models - Civic hybrid, Fusion hybrid, Altima hybrid, et al.
    Sorry to disillusion you but when I bought a Prius I didn't buy it as a self-advertisement. I bought it because I really liked the car and for energy efficient transportation in a sprawling metropolitan area whose very layout itself is energy inefficient. Consumer preference and self defense from bad urban design is very far indeed from self promotion. I love the Altima hybrid btw, rented one for a week and it's great., It and the Fusion hybrid and other hybrids have sales figures that are climbing every month much the chagrin of grumpy folks with attitudinal axes to grind based on fantastic lies and half-truths they've eagerly swallowed hook, line and sinker because they align with their predetermined notions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    95% way back in 2005 isn't most cars? 6 years later with the price of steel rising it has to be even higher. While steel making is energy intensive, it's much more energy efficient to mine old cars than to mine and process iron ore and the process of making steel itself uses 45% less energy that it did two decades ago. No facts will make any difference to you though apparently as it appears stuck for all time in your head that manufacturing a car uses more oil and causes more environmental destruction than driving a car for hundreds of thousands of miles even though facts I've read don't support that notion and you've certainly offered up none to support the idea.
    Per that article, uh, that's, "...95 percent of cars are at least partially recycled." "Partially" means anything from the battery to the tires to who knows what else. Americans buy 12-17MM cars a year; there isn't the infrastructure in the US to recycle many/majority/most cars simply because the profit motive isn't there.

    I would challenge the theory that recycled steel is more "energy efficient." If it were, steel makers that supply automakers would be in the business of providing predominantly recycled steel. They recycle to some extent, but most of the steel used in cars is virgin. A bit of Googling says ~65-75% of the average car is virgin steel.

    So why is this? All "steel" is not the same, in fact it's pretty much all different. The composition of steel changes for each application and customer; Ford vs. Chevy, cars. vs. washing machines, et al. This means that recycled steel has to properly broken into its constituents before it can be reprocesses to meet the customer's needs. One simply does not melt down an F-150 body and sell it to GM to make a Camaro.


    Sorry to disillusion you but when I bought a Prius I didn't buy it as a self-advertisement. I bought it because I really liked the car and for energy efficient transportation in a sprawling metropolitan area whose very layout itself is energy inefficient. Consumer preference and self defense from bad urban design is very far indeed from self promotion. I love the Altima hybrid btw, rented one for a week and it's great., It and the Fusion hybrid and other hybrids have sales figures that are climbing every month much the chagrin of grumpy folks with attitudinal axes to grind based on fantastic lies and half-truths they've eagerly swallowed hook, line and sinker because they align with their predetermined notions.
    Then why not buy a Civic/Fusion/Altima hybrid? You likely could have gotten a better $$$ deal given they don't really sell, and by all accounts they're just as good as the Prius and generally drive better. Well, we know the answer - those cars don't advertise "environmentalism" because they look identical to their gasoline-only versions.

    I'm sorry to lay things out in such stark terms, but these facts are stubborn things. One does both the environment and one's pocketbook a bigger favor if one simply buys a used Civic or Corolla. But of course that's not a very external thing either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.




    First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."

    Second, hybrids are ~2% of the market so if hybrid owners bought gasoline cars the balance you note is not possible. It should also be noted a new compact is a wash environmentally but an advantage financially (meaning, a car doesn't have to be used to better a hybrid).

    Lastly, it should be noted the Prius has ~80% of the hybrid market and we all know why it does - because it's a Toyota and it's a hybrid-only model. It exists solely as an advertisement for the owner. Hybrids just as effective have been footnotes if not absolute sales bombs because they were neither Toyotas nor standalone hybrid models - Civic hybrid, Fusion hybrid, Altima hybrid, et al.
    Excellent points, all.

    Toyota's own marketing research indicates that the #1 reason, far and away, that Prius owners purchased their cars, is the "message" that it communicates about them to other people who see them in it.

    It sure ain't because it makes good financial sense, because anyone with third grade math skills can see that it makes about as much financial sense as flushing $100 bills down a toilet.

    And it also isn't about the environment, as has been amply demonstrated.

    At best, it's a misguided "feel good" gesture made by those with limited cognitive functions, and at worst, it is a vain attempt to display the image of superiority over others.

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    The reason most steel products aren't made from 100% recycled steel is because 1) not all steel is recycled (try recycling rebar out of concrete) and 2) Global population is still growing.

    Until all steel is 100% recycled (never) and population stops growing, you'll need virgin steel.

    In the mean time, steel mills just dump in ~25% scrap-steel straigt into the furnace with the iron ore. It makes sense to put an even amount of your scrap into each batch because it eases process control. Since the recycled steel is already un-oxidized, unlike the ore, it only takes about 1/4 of the energy to process as iron processed from ore. I'm sure they'd love to dump 100% scrap into the furnace; there simply isn't enough of it though.

    Regarding "partially recycled". While cars aren't 100% recycled, the steel generally is. When you junk a car, the salvage yard picks it over for in-demand or rebuildable parts and drains all the fluids. Besides useable parts, high-value recyclables like batteries and catalytic converters are stripped off here. Then it goes to the crusher, and, eventually, a shredder. Magnetic processes are used to seperate the ferrous and non-ferrous metals, which are sent off to recycling. After all the metal is removed, you're still left with about 1/4 to 1/3 of the vehicle weight in trash. This is a mish-mash of rubber, plastic, foam, carpet, cloth, silicon, etc. This is what winds up in the landfill as it's not economically feasible to sort out all of these varied, low-scrap-value materials. This is why almost all cars are "partially recycled" and almost no cars are completely recycled.
    Last edited by @dam; 03-08-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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    Wow guy take a breath

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Per that article, uh, that's, "...95 percent of cars are at least partially recycled." "Partially" means anything from the battery to the tires to who knows what else. Americans buy 12-17MM cars a year; there isn't the infrastructure in the US to recycle many/majority/most cars simply because the profit motive isn't there.

    I would challenge the theory that recycled steel is more "energy efficient." If it were, steel makers that supply automakers would be in the business of providing predominantly recycled steel. They recycle to some extent, but most of the steel used in cars is virgin. A bit of Googling says ~65-75% of the average car is virgin steel.

    So why is this? All "steel" is not the same, in fact it's pretty much all different. The composition of steel changes for each application and customer; Ford vs. Chevy, cars. vs. washing machines, et al. This means that recycled steel has to properly broken into its constituents before it can be reprocesses to meet the customer's needs. One simply does not melt down an F-150 body and sell it to GM to make a Camaro.
    And? You keep talking about the manufacturing processes when it's been shown over and over again that the amount of oil used over the lifetime of a car is what determines a car's environmental impact. If memory serves it's something around a 10:1 ratio for a smaller IC car in energy used driving the car over its life versus energy used in manufacturing and transporting it for sale. BTW steel does not lose durability or quality through the recycling process. Even if some "virgin" raw materials are mixed in during manufacturing, starting with recycled steel makes the process less expensive and more environmentally friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Then why not buy a Civic/Fusion/Altima hybrid? You likely could have gotten a better $$$ deal given they don't really sell, and by all accounts they're just as good as the Prius and generally drive better. Well, we know the answer - those cars don't advertise "environmentalism" because they look identical to their gasoline-only versions.
    I love the Fusion hybrid too but they cost well over $30,000 when optioned up. I like the cut of the Lexus CT Hybrid's jib too but it's $35,000 when you modestly equip it. With all the nut cakes out there baggin' on the Prius I'd probably prefer to be less noticed. As much as I was ignorant of "making a statement" or some such horsesh|t when I bought a Prius I also really had no idea that raising the ire of every ignorant Joe the Plumber type d0uchbag out there was part of the bargain. I guess one should figure that into your buying decisions too. It comes standard with a bunch of irrational nut-baggers on your ass about it.

    For the foreseeable future I'll continue to drive my comfortable, thrifty Prius instead of buying a new car though. My daughter graduates college next year and the Prius with no payments and maybe 15 more years of reliable use left in it may make a nice graduation present. After that I may be shopping for a new or used hybrid or diesel or maybe even something like a new gen. Ford Focus that gets 40 MPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    I'm sorry to lay things out in such stark terms, but these facts are stubborn things. One does both the environment and one's pocketbook a bigger favor if one simply buys a used Civic or Corolla. But of course that's not a very external thing either.
    You haven really put forth any verifiable facts just personal opinions and cranky ones at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    IWith all the nut cakes out there baggin' on the Prius I'd probably prefer to be less noticed. As much as I was ignorant of "making a statement" or some such horsesh|t when I bought a Prius I also really had no idea that raising the ire of every ignorant Joe the Plumber type d0uchbag out there was part of the bargain. I guess one should figure that into your buying decisions too. It comes standard with a bunch of irrational nut-baggers on your ass about it.
    100% Agree, it's amazing the reactions that the Prius brings out in some people. Just want to throw out some real world data incase the OP hasn't made his decision yet.

    Bought my 2005 Prius used two years ago with 60,000 miles on it for $12,000, around the same price as a comparable Corolla or Civic at the time. I put 50,000 miles on the car since I've owned it and haven't spent one cent on repairs. Gas mileage has been about 48mpg during summer and 43 during the winter, and thats while driving normally. One of the most versatile cars I've ever owned, fits 4 people comfortably, plus my 29er fits in the back with the seats down as long as the front tire is removed. what's not to love?

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    what's not to love?
    The performance and driving experience...maybe the interior.

    From a practical standpoint though they're fantastic appliance-cars. Edmunds came out with an article the other day saying the break-even time is pretty quick compared to a non-hybrid Camry, which has similar interior room (although the Prius falls sort of between the Corolla and Camry)

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    well Im in the market for a car. Was spot on for an XB but im starting to hate it since my mom is away im car sitting. In the past month Ive test drove the vw sportwagon and just this sunday the prius. The VW is a nice car. coming in at 27 its a little more I want to spend. The golf TDI is at 25. Then the prius 3 at 23 k. its sucks balls to drive..but the fact that ill get 40-50mpg is worth it to me. cheapest of the 3 and was quite roomy for what I want. Im just cheap not looking to save the world..to recycle to be green or whatever you guys think people buy this car for. I just want my money to go far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_p
    100% Agree, it's amazing the reactions that the Prius brings out in some people. Just want to throw out some real world data incase the OP hasn't made his decision yet.

    Bought my 2005 Prius used two years ago with 60,000 miles on it for $12,000, around the same price as a comparable Corolla or Civic at the time. I put 50,000 miles on the car since I've owned it and haven't spent one cent on repairs. Gas mileage has been about 48mpg during summer and 43 during the winter, and thats while driving normally. One of the most versatile cars I've ever owned, fits 4 people comfortably, plus my 29er fits in the back with the seats down as long as the front tire is removed. what's not to love?
    Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:

    We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.

    50,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 1111 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $4,444 in gas.

    50,000 miles at 36 mpg for a Civis is 1388 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $5,555 in gas.

    So even with your unusual driving pattern, you'd be spending an additional $4,000 to save $1,111 in gas. Plus, your Prius battery warranty is almost up.
    Last edited by RIS; 03-08-2011 at 10:59 PM.

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    Hey there tl1, even given thought why you've devolved things into insults and name calling?

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    Maybe a more silly comparison will communicate reality to the Prius fan club:

    The 305 horsepower 2012 Ford Mustang lists for $22,145 and is advertised at 31 highway mpg.

    The one hamster-power 3rd generation Toyota Prius lists for $23,050 and is advertised at 45 highway mpg.

    12,000 miles at 31 mpg for the Mustang is 387 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1548.
    12,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 267 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1,067.

    So IF you could actually buy a Prius for $23K (you can't), and IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg (unlikely at best), you'd still be spending $905 more for the Prius, to save $481 in gas. That's about a 50% return on investment.

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    How about a real hillbilly gas guzzler?

    The 18 mpg 2011 Chevrolet Silverado W/T full-sized pickup can be had for about $17,000. 12,000 miles at 18 mpg is a whopping 667 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $2,667, or $1,600 more than a Prius would allegedly burn covering the same distance.

    So again, even if you could actually buy a Prius for $23K, and even IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg, you'd be spending $5,000 extra on the Prius to save $1,600 in gas..
    Last edited by RIS; 03-08-2011 at 11:45 PM.

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    actually you could

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    So IF you could actually buy a Prius for $23K (you can't), and IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg (unlikely at best
    Look at Toyota's website, sticker price on the Prius is listed at $23,050 and we all know that nobody pays sticker. As mentioned above, my second generation Prius easily averaged 45mpg driving normally over the past 50,000 miles. From everything I heard and read, the generation 3 version is about 5mpg better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDM
    I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.

    Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.
    I 2nd that

    I don't know if they are made in mexico (or if that makes a difference) like my wifes, butt he interior will fall apart after 4 years. And badly. All fabric is coming up insulaton from the AC ducts falling out and coming throught the vents, now it takes 40 min of driving to get cool air. Auto trunk open and pass side window, arm rest.... Should I continue... BTW This car was garage kept and had less than10k miles a year in a moderate climate

    With that said I also dislike the prius. you might want to open up the options a little.

  175. #175
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    For example?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Hey there tl1, even given thought why you've devolved things into insults and name calling?

    Unless you're insulted by the mention of the ignorant Joe the Unlicensed Plumber type of d0uchbags ready to trash Prius cars, I didn't see any "insults" or name calling.

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    Except in reality...

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Maybe a more silly comparison will communicate reality to the Prius fan club:

    The 305 horsepower 2012 Ford Mustang lists for $22,145 and is advertised at 31 highway mpg.

    The one hamster-power 3rd generation Toyota Prius lists for $23,050 and is advertised at 45 highway mpg.

    12,000 miles at 31 mpg for the Mustang is 387 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1548.
    12,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 267 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1,067.

    So IF you could actually buy a Prius for $23K (you can't), and IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg (unlikely at best), you'd still be spending $905 more for the Prius, to save $481 in gas. That's about a 50% return on investment.
    ...the Mustang has a 23 MPG combined rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG combined rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

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    I'm always amazed that there are still people

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    How about a real hillbilly gas guzzler?

    The 18 mpg 2011 Chevrolet Silverado W/T full-sized pickup can be had for about $17,000. 12,000 miles at 18 mpg is a whopping 667 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $2,667, or $1,600 more than a Prius would allegedly burn covering the same distance.

    So again, even if you could actually buy a Prius for $23K, and even IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg, you'd be spending $5,000 extra on the Prius to save $1,600 in gas..
    ...trying to make a strictly short term dollars and cents proposition of buying a car as if that is the only issue at hand. Clearly the more foreign oil that is used the worse it is for our security, our economy and our environment. But I guess it also explains the popularity of Wal-Mart too.

  178. #178
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    Okay, let's try another one.

    A 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive Chevrolet Suburban that I modified into a trail rig. I rebuilt the automatic transmission and both drive axles, had new driveshafts fabricated, rebuilt the suspension and steering, installed new springs, shocks, brakes, tires, and wheels, a new radiator, and some other stuff. It had a 6" lift kit, 35" mud tires, 4.88 gears, lockers in both diffs, a 6.2 liter V8 engine exhaling through dual 2-1/2"Flowmaster mufflers, and carried fabricated steel bumpers (for pushing down trees) that might as well have been made out of railroad track, a 9000 pound winch, dual batterys, two full-sized (35") spare tires, a spare rear drive shaft, spare fluids, belts, and hoses, shovel, axe, self-recovery kit, tool box, etc, etc, etc. It weighed 7250 pounds. I purchased and built it for about $5,000. The pics are in my photo album.

    Towing a trailer, with two full-sized road motorcycles and a week's worth of camping gear, it got 20 mpg on the highway. With a 40 gallon fuel tank, we only fueled up every few states (800 miles) on our way to Monterey California.

    12,000 miles at 20 mpg is 1000 gallons of fuel. At $4 a gallon, that's $4,000 a year.

  179. #179
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    Fantastic, fiscal analysis, but the Civic still makes more smog and imports more oil, so if a buyer wants to still drive, but pollute less, and import less oil, that buyer is going to get a Prius. Plus, the Prius hatch is very handy, you would need a Civic Wagon if space important.

    The Prius is a political statement and people have a lot of issues with politics. Since Nixon, each president (Even Bush and Regan) has been trying to urge energy independence, but as soon as Oil drops $ consumers buy SUVs and move out to track homes in the valley.

    By the way, its funny how MPG of the Civic seems inflated, and the Prius is deflated. Use EPA combined or what is on fueleconomy.gov (29 & 46 MPG) from car owners and remember that if you you speed MPG will go down. It's science.

    I would rather people own a older car, but ride their bike and the result is less barrels of oil. Yet, people are going to own new cars, because that is what they want. So, the new vs. old argument is apples to oranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:

    We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.

    50,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 1111 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $4,444 in gas.

    50,000 miles at 36 mpg for a Civis is 1388 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $5,555 in gas.

    So even with your unusual driving pattern, you'd be spending an additional $4,000 to save $1,111 in gas. Plus, your Prius battery warranty is almost up.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...the Mustang has a 23 MPG combined rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG combined rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
    Yup, RIS really cherry picks his stats. He can leave now since he is making false statements.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...trying to make a strictly short term dollars and cents proposition of buying a car as if that is the only issue at hand. Clearly the more foreign oil that is used the worse it is for our security, our economy and our environment. But I guess it also explains the popularity of Wal-Mart too.
    Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.

  182. #182
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    I'd rather be somewhat rational

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.
    ...and consistently lower my oil usage over time. Thanks for the suggestions though.

  183. #183
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    I keep waiting foir something honest

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    Yup, RIS really cherry picks his stats. He can leave now since he is making false statements.
    ...to come from his direction considering he is a law enforcement officer (according to him, not me) but it may be a lost cause.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:

    We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.

    50,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 1111 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $4,444 in gas.

    50,000 miles at 36 mpg for a Civis is 1388 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $5,555 in gas.

    So even with your unusual driving pattern, you'd be spending an additional $4,000 to save $1,111 in gas. Plus, your Prius battery warranty is almost up.
    Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.

    140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
    140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.

    There are also other things to factor in such as the larger size and more options of the Prius, plus it's nice to have the hatchback for hauling stuff. The warranty on the battery is already up since it's 8years or 100,000 miles. I'm not worried though, the battery isn't known to be something to die right out of warranty, and if it does I buy a battery from a wrecked car for $400 - $500and install it myself, no biggie.

  185. #185
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    More Prius battery repair info

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_p
    Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.

    140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
    140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.

    There are also other things to factor in such as the larger size and more options of the Prius, plus it's nice to have the hatchback for hauling stuff. The warranty on the battery is already up since it's 8years or 100,000 miles. I'm not worried though, the battery isn't known to be something to die right out of warranty, and if it does I buy a battery from a wrecked car for $400 - $500and install it myself, no biggie.
    Really good info jeff. I read this recently about repairing the batteries and had been unaware of this. The hybrid battery has 28 separate battery modules in it. It's possible to repair just one of those modules to recondition the entire hybrid battery assembly because a battery problem will almost always be in just one of the modules. The article says Toyota will do this for $750 but hopefully free enterprise will also spawn other companies that can competently do this work for less money.

    Batteries in a Toyota Prius typically last a long time. As we mentioned on the previous page, the company guarantees them for the life of the car, and drivers have documented at least two 2001 Toyota Prius models, the earliest Prius model to hit North American roads, lasting for more than 200,000 miles (321,869 kilometers) without a battery pack replacement. That's more than twice the manufacturer's warranty period [source: HybridExperience.com].

    In the rare case that a driver encounters a problem with the battery pack before the hybrid reaches 10 years or 100,000 miles (160,934 kilometers), Toyota will replace the pack with a brand-new one. Instead of scrapping the old pack, however, they hang on to it. This is because battery packs built for the Prius consist of 28 separate modules, and any problem in a battery pack is most likely due to one of those modules, not all of them.

    Toyota also has a main recycling center that collects battery packs from scrap yards. In fact, there's a toll-free number on every Prius battery that informs callers that a $150 reward awaits them if they bring the pack to any Toyota or Lexus dealer. Instead of letting batteries degrade in a landfill, Toyota pays scavengers to reclaim them.

    So, although Toyota can't replace the battery pack when the warranty has run out on a Prius, it can recommend reconditioning the battery pack as a cheaper alternative to outright replacement. If anything goes wrong in a unit after 100,000 miles (160,934 kilometers), Toyota can locate which one of the 28 modules is causing problems and replace that individual module. By harvesting from the older, recycled battery packs they've collected, technicians can find a matching module that has a similar chemistry and age as the other 27 modules and recondition the battery by replacing only the faulty module.

    Reconditioning the battery in a Toyota Prius not only extends the life of the battery by adding another six years; it also reduces maintenance costs for the owner. At $750, battery reconditioning costs about one-fourth the price of replacing the battery pack entirely.

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-e...tery-pack1.htm

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    ...the Mustang has a 23 MPG combined rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG combined rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
    Go back and read his post. He's driven 50,000 miles in two years. That's more than twice as much as the average person does. Unless he has a paper route, that's pretty much all highway driving, hence the highway mpg numbers.

  187. #187
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    Good point...

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Go back and read his post. He's driven 50,000 miles in two years. That's more than twice as much as the average person does. Unless he has a paper route, that's pretty much all highway driving, hence the highway mpg numbers.
    The Prius' gas mileage is worse on the highway since it running solely on IC. If I eliminated the highway driving part of my commute my mileage would be about 50 mpg.

  188. #188
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    Sorta

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_p
    The Prius' gas mileage is worse on the highway since it running solely on IC. If I eliminated the highway driving part of my commute my mileage would be about 50 mpg.
    It runs in IC, except when loads are super low, like a slight downhill, then it runs on just the electric. When you floor it to pass, it uses the IC with electric boost.

    I would say it primarily runs on IC at freeway speed.

    You're right, tho. It doesn't get as good mileage at freeway speed as it does in town. Still gets way better mileage than a IC only car both in town and on the freeway.

    Point is, it still takes advantage of the small efficient Atkinson Cycle IC engine with super high compression that draws hardly any vacuum at cruising speed, and has enough power to keep speed. When it needs the extra power, it kicks in the electric.

    Part of what makes big engines suck so much gas even if you aren't using all that power is that they waste a lot of energy drawing a big manifold vacuum. Pumping losses. Small engines running wide open throttle make the same power at cruising speed with much less pumping loss.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-09-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  189. #189
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    Talk about...

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.
    .. a cherry picked fact.

    Yeah, Obama's guilty of continuing Bushie's little oil war, but I see you left that second part out.

    Oh, and in case you didn't notice, we've mostly pulled out of Iraq, and it's the righties who are pushing to prop up the iron fisted dictators who are sitting on the mountains of oil lining their own pockets and letting their people live like peasants. The righties would rather see cheap oil and stable profits than democracy, and much of our country's GDP going to the military operations to support the oil supplies instead of actually developing true prosperity here.

  190. #190
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    Prius for cheapskates

    Quote Originally Posted by Breitness24
    Then the prius 3 at 23 k. its sucks balls to drive..but the fact that ill get 40-50mpg is worth it to me. cheapest of the 3 and was quite roomy for what I want. Im just cheap not looking to save the world..to recycle to be green or whatever you guys think people buy this car for. I just want my money to go far.
    I think anyone considering a Prius because they're just cheap will be well served by it because they're extremely economical to operate, they last a long time without many problems and the resale value is excellent. It's really too bad the $3150 hybrid tax credit is no longer in effect for the Toyota Prius as that would pretty much erase the cost premium for buying the high MPG hybrid car and because it's seriously in the nation's interest to use less oil. The Toyota lots I drive past are full of the cars so you can probably get one for far below retail cost too. The ultimate in value for the dollar will be a used one though.

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1
    Unless you're insulted by the mention of the ignorant Joe the Unlicensed Plumber type of d0uchbags ready to trash Prius cars, I didn't see any "insults" or name calling.
    Fail; and an implicit admission of defeat. I graciously accept.

  192. #192
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    Prius is on the best used car list. I dont see Jetta. VW Passat is on the worst.

    http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/auto...rst-used-cars/

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    I'm sure that there are those for whom the Prius circle-jerk is stimulating, but I spent a few glorious hours today in a vastly superior sexual experience, burning dead dinosaurs with my humble little 40 mpg commuter on one of the finest roads on the planet.

    There is not much in life that is better than a fine pair of Italian shoes (in this case, a fresh set of Pirelli Supercorsa Pro tires). Finely sorted Swedish rear suspension from the Ohlins race shop (originally built for Graves Motorsports Yamaha factory Superstock racing program) and EBC GFA "kit" race front brake pads made me feel like all I needed was a cape and a mask. And a new AFAM/DID lightweight 520 drive kit and a sparkling clear Hotbodies Racing windscreen just added to the experience.

    Made my leathers get tight.
    Last edited by RIS; 03-09-2011 at 09:39 PM.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    .. a cherry picked fact.

    Yeah, Obama's guilty of continuing Bushie's little oil war, but I see you left that second part out.

    Oh, and in case you didn't notice, we've mostly pulled out of Iraq, and it's the righties who are pushing to prop up the iron fisted dictators who are sitting on the mountains of oil lining their own pockets and letting their people live like peasants. The righties would rather see cheap oil and stable profits than democracy, and much of our country's GDP going to the military operations to support the oil supplies instead of actually developing true prosperity here.
    How else am I to keep putting relatively cheap gas in my 11 mpg SUV? Somebody's gotta do the dirty work.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_p
    Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.

    140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
    140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.

    There are also other things to factor in such as the larger size and more options of the Prius, plus it's nice to have the hatchback for hauling stuff. The warranty on the battery is already up since it's 8years or 100,000 miles. I'm not worried though, the battery isn't known to be something to die right out of warranty, and if it does I buy a battery from a wrecked car for $400 - $500and install it myself, no biggie.
    Any modern Civic that averages 30 mpg has something very wrong or is being driven by like a race car. Said Prius driven under such conditions would get WAY less than 45 MPG.

    But even in your skewed example, using a new Civic LX (MSRP $16k) vs. a new Prius (MSRP $23k), you would need a bit more than 140k miles to break even. That is an average ownership time of 9 years, and the majority of new car owners don't keep cars that long.

  196. #196
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    40 Mpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    I'm sure that there are those for whom the Prius circle-jerk is stimulating, but I spent a few glorious hours today in a vastly superior sexual experience, burning dead dinosaurs with my humble little 40 mpg commuter on one of the finest roads on the planet.

    There is not much in life that is better than a fine pair of Italian shoes (in this case, a fresh set of Pirelli Supercorsa Pro tires). Finely sorted Swedish rear suspension from the Ohlins race shop (originally built for Graves Motorsports Yamaha factory Superstock racing program) and EBC GFA "kit" race front brake pads made me feel like all I needed was a cape and a mask. And a new AFAM/DID lightweight 520 drive kit and a sparkling clear Hotbodies Racing windscreen just added to the experience.

    Made my leathers get tight.
    You must have felt like you were out slumming with the Prius pinkos getting such good fuel economy.

  197. #197
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    You're clearly not making sense

    As such any future dialogue with you would be pointless.

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    Thanks for pointing that out ....

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    It runs in IC, except when loads are super low, like a slight downhill, then it runs on just the electric. When you floor it to pass, it uses the IC with electric boost.

    I would say it primarily runs on IC at freeway speed.

    You're right, tho. It doesn't get as good mileage at freeway speed as it does in town. Still gets way better mileage than a IC only car both in town and on the freeway.

    Point is, it still takes advantage of the small efficient Atkinson Cycle IC engine with super high compression that draws hardly any vacuum at cruising speed, and has enough power to keep speed. When it needs the extra power, it kicks in the electric.

    Part of what makes big engines suck so much gas even if you aren't using all that power is that they waste a lot of energy drawing a big manifold vacuum. Pumping losses. Small engines running wide open throttle make the same power at cruising speed with much less pumping loss.
    Yeah I meant to say mostly, not solely. Other factors that contribute to the Prius' good gas mileage are the low drag coefficient (0.26) and light wheels (15") coupled with low rolling resistance tires. A somewhat popular mod for the Prius is to relace the wheels and tires with 17"ers from a Scion TC, they are a perfect fit. While this mod certainly makes the car look better, you take about a 4mpg hit.

    Pumping losses could be mitigated with lower gearing. Case in point, last summer I had the opportunity to spend some time driving a Z06 Corvette (505hp, 7 litres) and was amazed to find that it got about 28mpg during highway driving at about 75 mph. Of course the car was barely turing any rpms (less than 2000 rpms IIRC) while in 6th gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Any modern Civic that averages 30 mpg has something very wrong or is being driven by like a race car. Said Prius driven under such conditions would get WAY less than 45 MPG.

    But even in your skewed example, using a new Civic LX (MSRP $16k) vs. a new Prius (MSRP $23k), you would need a bit more than 140k miles to break even. That is an average ownership time of 9 years, and the majority of new car owners don't keep cars that long.
    Same driver, same roads, same driving style. Just pointing out my experience with both cars.

    Skewed? Civic EX with auto (MSRP $20405) would be a more fair comparison. Still not apples to apples since the Prius is larger and has more content.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIS
    Okay, let's try another one.

    A 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive Chevrolet Suburban that I modified into a trail rig. I rebuilt the automatic transmission and both drive axles, had new driveshafts fabricated, rebuilt the suspension and steering, installed new springs, shocks, brakes, tires, and wheels, a new radiator, and some other stuff. It had a 6" lift kit, 35" mud tires, 4.88 gears, lockers in both diffs, a 6.2 liter V8 engine exhaling through dual 2-1/2"Flowmaster mufflers, and carried fabricated steel bumpers (for pushing down trees) that might as well have been made out of railroad track, a 9000 pound winch, dual batterys, two full-sized (35") spare tires, a spare rear drive shaft, spare fluids, belts, and hoses, shovel, axe, self-recovery kit, tool box, etc, etc, etc. It weighed 7250 pounds. I purchased and built it for about $5,000. The pics are in my photo album.

    Towing a trailer, with two full-sized road motorcycles and a week's worth of camping gear, it got 20 mpg on the highway. With a 40 gallon fuel tank, we only fueled up every few states (800 miles) on our way to Monterey California.

    12,000 miles at 20 mpg is 1000 gallons of fuel. At $4 a gallon, that's $4,000 a year.
    Is your Suburban a diesel?

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