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  1. #1
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    Sturdy racks for spirited driving?

    I tend to drive spiritedly with my Subaru sometimes, and I'm wondering if my Yakima Forklift (mounted on factory cross bars) is enough to keep my hardtail TREK 3900 level and secure when I take turns at speeds more than should be done. Also, are there any bike racks you guys would recommend that can withstand off-road driving? The manual on my Yakima Forklift discourages off-road driving
    (Oh, and I'm a Subaru fan, therefore, I'd much prefer a Yakima, but am still open to other options if Yakima doesn't have an equivalent)

    Anyone else drive spiritedly or drive off-road with their bike mounted up top? I'm wondering if I should buy another rack for off-roading and/or spirited driving in the mountains...

  2. #2
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    One mans spirited driving is another mans sunday cruise with grandma. What kind of subaru with what tires?


    Just get a hitch rack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qatarbhoy
    I have to ask for them to do a "Number two" on my head

  3. #3
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    I second that, get a reciever then a rack. Much easier to deal with than a roof rack, and usually the same if not less money.

  4. #4
    ballbuster
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    From one AWD freak to another...

    Quote Originally Posted by AWDfreak
    I tend to drive spiritedly with my Subaru sometimes, and I'm wondering if my Yakima Forklift (mounted on factory cross bars) is enough to keep my hardtail TREK 3900 level and secure when I take turns at speeds more than should be done. Also, are there any bike racks you guys would recommend that can withstand off-road driving? The manual on my Yakima Forklift discourages off-road driving
    (Oh, and I'm a Subaru fan, therefore, I'd much prefer a Yakima, but am still open to other options if Yakima doesn't have an equivalent)

    Anyone else drive spiritedly or drive off-road with their bike mounted up top? I'm wondering if I should buy another rack for off-roading and/or spirited driving in the mountains...
    Hitch rack... totally.

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  5. #5
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    Hmmmmm...

    Won't a hitch rack ruin my departure angle? It's already bad as it is (the bumpers really stick out).


    I heard from the store (where I bought my Yakima) that for roof racks, fork mounts are the way to go for stability and security. Anybody agree/disagree?

  6. #6
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    I'll have to agree. Between my friends and I, three cars have fork mounts roof racks, and one car has upright (wheel on) roof racks. Sometimes we will go biking in the Santa Cruz mountains (hwy 17, hwy9) and more often than not I think of the bicycles on top of our cars as we take corners and such.

    The fork mount racks have not given me any reason to be worried (we've all had them over a year now). Whereas we've had two mishaps with the upright mount popping open and the bike tipping over (yikes!). Luckily they have occured at low speeds and there are wheel retention straps so the bikes stayed on top of the car.

    I have the Thule 516 prologue's on my car, cheap but haven't had any problems yet. One friend who drives a bmw (very spiritedly) has Yakima steelheads. No problems on that one, and he loves to drive...

    My other friend with a passat also has steelheads with no problems. The racks we've had problems with were mounted on a bmw and are Thule Criteriums. I believe they popped open because the rack was not locked.

  7. #7
    ballbuster
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    Yeah, I suppose it would

    Quote Originally Posted by AWDfreak
    Hmmmmm...

    Won't a hitch rack ruin my departure angle? It's already bad as it is (the bumpers really stick out).


    I heard from the store (where I bought my Yakima) that for roof racks, fork mounts are the way to go for stability and security. Anybody agree/disagree?
    I guess it depends on how long your axle to rear bumper is, how high you can mount the receiver hitch, and what rack you choose.

    I have a Performance X-Port rack, and it hangs pretty low. I sometimes drag it on the ground. Then again, I have an Audi A4 with factory lowered sport package. This car is super low to begin with, then add the long axle to bumper. I have to remember to drive out of a steep driveway at an angle so it doesn't drag anything. It would probably be a big mistake to take this rig down a rocky fireroad in the Sierras to get to the trailhead.

    A Thule T2 (or whatever they call it these days) will have more clearance. Some Subies can take a 2" hitch reciever. If so, I have seen height extensions for 2" where it boosts the height up about 4-6 inches or so. Also, Subies tend to be pretty high from the factory, unless you get the GT or WRX-STi.

  8. #8
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    Yakima steelhead is the way to go. My friend did over 100 with 2 bikes on his steelhead on a Maxima. It's solid. I just got the same setup for my IS300, and being a track day enthusiast, it was the only setup I considered after seeing what my friend had done with his. Put it this way, if you trust your 150-200lb self riding a bike with a wheel held on by just the front qr, I'm sure you can trust your ~30lb bike held on by the same point on the bike.

    Like said above, I would not trust the wheel mounted ones with the way we drive, there is definitely play in those.

    Thule fork mount, forget about it, those things wobble left and right like a cb antennea. your whole bike is basically held onto your roof with just 1 simple U bolt. I advise against

    Hitch mount may seem safe, but all it really has is 1 point to mount on, held on with just a pin through 2 squared bits with plenty of play. And the rest of it is pretty much wheel mounted hardware. Again, lots of wobble.

  9. #9
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    I had a roof rack failure with a fork mount setup. The mount and bike fork was fine, it just broke the aluminum c-channel on the rack cross beam. Luckily I was going 5 mph across a dirt parking lot, but the handle bar left a nice mark on the roof. I'll take that any day over a freeway dismount.

    I remedied this by adding more attachment bolts that secure the fork mount to the cross beam. No problems now, but I always drive slowly around corners and especially in other situations that tend to rock the car sideways. Lots of lateral force up there on the rack, mount and forks.

  10. #10
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    @ pimpbot:
    Yeah, my Subaru Outback has an OK amount of ground clearance, but not exactly what I'd consider decent (7.3 inches from level ground to the bottom of the rear differential guard).
    However, I don't want to sacrifice any more departure angle since the Outback's weaknesses are it's approach, departure, and breakover angles due to the large hangovers and large wheelbase

    @bbqsauce
    Hell yeah, I enjoy driving the twisties on places like CA-9 at speed, the same way I like to storm through singletrack! Looks like a fork-mount is probably the way to go, considering your experience.

    @qqfob
    Thanks for the suggestion, I'll personally check out the Yakima Steelhead at my local rack store. And nice to know that I'm not the only MTB-er with a roof rack who drives spiritedly.

    @mattsteve
    Can you post pics of your remedy? And what brand/type of fork mount roof rack do you have?

  11. #11
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    qqfb - how well does the steelhead hold on while racing through the twisties?

    IMO, why even take the chance and drive it hard with a bike mounted on your car? I guess if the bike is always on your car...

    -joel

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojotherider
    qqfb - how well does the steelhead hold on while racing through the twisties?

    IMO, why even take the chance and drive it hard with a bike mounted on your car? I guess if the bike is always on your car...

    -joel
    qqfb, just checked the Yakima Steelhead, it's a bit cheaper than the Forklift I have. However, the description says it only fits Yakima roundbars, but it says it's compatible with my factory crossbars, wtf?

    Well, driving spiritedly in itself is taking a chance at life. As for my bike, I lost my bike lock

    So I 'have to' keep my bike up on my Subaru to keep it safe, although the sight of a bike up top does negate such an advantage. However, I have 3 advantages of keeping the bike on the rack:

    1) I don't have to reconfigure my bike when I need to haul around passengers

    2) I can spot my car in a parking lot easily

    3) it looks cool (a dirty Subaru with a dirty mountain bike)

  13. #13
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    My fork mounted rack scares me on rough roads, the bike swings back and forth a lot. I actually broke an OEM VW rack (made by Thule, very similar to the Aero bars) while on a rough fire road, the bike almost went through my sunroof. I would definitely be more comfortable with a hitch rack.

  14. #14
    ballbuster
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    You obviously never used...

    Quote Originally Posted by qqfob

    Hitch mount may seem safe, but all it really has is 1 point to mount on, held on with just a pin through 2 squared bits with plenty of play. And the rest of it is pretty much wheel mounted hardware. Again, lots of wobble.
    ... a good hitch rack. My rack has a threaded bolt for a hitch pin. Snug it up and no wobble at all.... not that wobble makes any difference anyway. It's just annoying. I've seen a few roof racks pop off the tracks and end up in the ditch with the bikes still attached, but I have never seen a hitch rack failure.


    Something like this:



    Mine is a pretty cheapo bike rack, and even it has this. Instead of the nice lock on the end, my rack has a cotter pin to keep it from totally falling out (or turning to unscrew, since the cotter pin hits something first anyway) if it came loose and unscrewed itself... which it won't because it has a split washer.

    If you can pull 200 pounds of tongue and 1500 pounds of weight yanking and pushing over and over, I think it can handle 30 pounds of rack and 60 pounds of bikes. I mean think about it. What holds the roof rack rack on? Little tiny clips, little tiny brackets, little tiny hooks, all stamped out of 14Ga sheet metal. Yeah, it is held on at four points instead of one point, but those four points are not redundant. If any one of those 4 points fails, the rack comes off. So in theory, it actually has four times the chances of failing.

    Photo Credit: NoGearsHere



    I'm not trying to scare you, I'm just saying that hitch racks are perfectly safe... like anything else... if used properly.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-02-2010 at 10:17 AM.

  15. #15
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    Think I have to voice a counter-opinion about Thule's fork-mount solutions.

    I have two Thule Velovise trays that I bought in 1998. The rear part of the rack is held in place by two bolts and a thick steel plate. The front 'vise' part is held in place by another thick steel plate that hinges on a steel shaft and is held in place on the other side with another steel bolt. I'm not sure where the "held in place by U-bolts" but the Velovise is certainly not one of those.

    I had the trays (and rack) on my Mustang, then later my 475rwhp pullied Mustang Cobra, and had no problems with 'spirited driving'. I currently have them on my Lexus IS350, and still have no problems with 'spirited driving'.

  16. #16
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    OK, I've been reading up reviews and it seems the Yakima Forklift isn't all that great. It's a fact that it wobbles on my factory crossbars, even with maximum tightening. I feel stupid for jumping on a rack that mounts onto the crossbars

    And many reviews have b****ed about the skewer w/ SKS locks, stating it's pretty much useless.

    Any recommendations on cable-locks I can use to secure the bike and rack onto the factory side-rails for anti-theft????

  17. #17
    ballbuster
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    Heh... back when I ran a roof rack...

    Quote Originally Posted by AWDfreak
    OK, I've been reading up reviews and it seems the Yakima Forklift isn't all that great. It's a fact that it wobbles on my factory crossbars, even with maximum tightening. I feel stupid for jumping on a rack that mounts onto the crossbars

    And many reviews have b****ed about the skewer w/ SKS locks, stating it's pretty much useless.

    Any recommendations on cable-locks I can use to secure the bike and rack onto the factory side-rails for anti-theft????
    ... I ran a Kryptonite cable from a door handle inside the car (a VW GTi, the door handles were held in place with two M8 bolts, and the door handle had a metal core.... pretty dang tough to pull out), out the passenger window or the tilted sunroof to a fatty Bulldog U-lock around the bike's rear triangle and rear wheel. That is about as secure as you're going to make it, but still not secure enough for bad neighborhoods, or overnight. Kryptonite cables are not that hard to cut, and U-locks can be popped open with a tire jack. Any rack locks are pretty dang easy to defeat with a hammer, a pair of vice grips and a big fat flat screwdriver. The locks and tumblers are made of brass and cast pot metal.

    Now I got a Kryptonite style big ass covered grade 5 steel chain attached to the trailer hitch under the car. The chains are harder to cut, but still can be defeated.

    One bit advantage to a roof rack is that it is harder to get leverage on a set of bolt cutters.

    You can take a Kryptonite fatty cable, loop it through the roof rack rail into itself, and secure it to a bike with a U-Lock.



    Heh... you say you have 7 1/4" of clearance. I'm pretty sure I'm under 5" back there.... maybe 4". IIRC, I have less than 3" up front. I think I'm going to invest in a Panzer Plate before I try to brave a fireroad in this thing. The PP is like a 6mm thick plate of aluminum that covers the entire underside of the engine bay back to the tranny.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 03-02-2010 at 12:51 PM.

  18. #18
    Lopen is sneller....
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    For me driving spirited and a rack don't match. Driving to the trail head is all part of the fun therefore the bikes are in the car not on a rack. A roof rack def ruins the handling of our car (its a Sub 3.0 R Spec B). I never tried a hitch rack on it but can't imagine I would like the weight that far behind the rear axle.

  19. #19
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    I have a T2 on my subaru WRX with a factory towbar. This works well because the towbar is not down low like some of the hidden-hitch models (but you can still only see it from the rear if you are looking for it), and then the T2 has a design that is higher off the ground the further back you go. This leads to pretty good departure-angles, (no dragging) and of course it is super sturdy.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzzi
    I never tried a hitch rack on it but can't imagine I would like the weight that far behind the rear axle.
    Ok, but do you realize how screwed up the Subaru layout is in the first place? It works for them and the AWD is a huge factor, but the engine is AHEAD of the front axle (which is why subaru's noses are very long). Audi also does this, but the point is you have a lot of weight in front of the front axle, so while it may not be optimal for the rear springs, I wouldn't worry too much about the weight distro.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  21. #21
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    @ pimpbot
    Thanks for the advice with the locks. I went to my local bike rack store and the eldest guy there recommended I get the thickest cable to secure the bike and rack to the factory side rails since the Bay Area is seeing a trend of stolen bikes. I found myself the cable I want (it's at least 5/8 inch in diameter), but I'm not sure what lock I should use...

    @ Uzzi
    The boxer engine should keep the center of gravity lower than most "normal" passenger cars.

    @ Jayem
    Thanks for the suggestion. And as for the engines being too far forward in Subarus and Audis, I knew about that flaw already XD


    EDIT: Oh, I take back what I said about the Yakima Forklift. It's just that I didn't mount it correctly on the factory crossbars. The dudes at the bike rack store told me I did it wrong, so I fixed it to the point where they approved of my mounting of the Yakima Forklift.

  22. #22
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    departure angle? wtf man, just take it easy coming out of driveways when you've got the bike on the back my car has less than half the clearance yours does.. a moderate amount of sense will prevent any problems.

    you're driving to go ride your bike, not running rally races or track days with a bike on the back. talking about weight distribution is almost insane.

  23. #23
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    T2 hitch on a Mazda3, pretty low hitch but I don't have clearance issues too often. Also have roof rack setup for the same car, feel much better with bikes on the T2.

    As far as strength, stability and security, roof racks are easily stolen so locking the bikes to them offers little protection. Run the rack or bike into even a wood awning and the rack or roof will give way first.
    If I drag the bottom of the T2 on the ground, the asphalt gives way. I can use a big heavy On-guard chain and a U-lock to secure the bikes to the receiver which is welded to the car frame. Often I can also back the car into a spot that makes the bikes and locks hard to even access.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Ok, but do you realize how screwed up the Subaru layout is in the first place? It works for them and the AWD is a huge factor, but the engine is AHEAD of the front axle (which is why subaru's noses are very long). Audi also does this, but the point is you have a lot of weight in front of the front axle, so while it may not be optimal for the rear springs, I wouldn't worry too much about the weight distro.

    And let's face it, the fuel in your tank weighs a lot more than your bike. A 60 L tank weighs approx 45 kg, a heavy bike plus rack is lucky to weigh 30 kg. Then you've got passengers and luggage.

    My hitch sits higher the the departure angle of the parts beneath my bumper and is capable of towing a 750 kg load. Plenty strong enough for a bike plus rack.

    The other advantage of having bikes on the back is you can see them in your mirror, if something comes loose you can sort it out.

  25. #25
    ballbuster
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    still....

    Quote Originally Posted by AWDfreak
    @ pimpbot
    Thanks for the advice with the locks. I went to my local bike rack store and the eldest guy there recommended I get the thickest cable to secure the bike and rack to the factory side rails since the Bay Area is seeing a trend of stolen bikes. I found myself the cable I want (it's at least 5/8 inch in diameter), but I'm not sure what lock I should use...
    Don't depend on the cable as your only deterrent. They are not hard to cut at all. Cable shears will do it in pretty short order.

    I like to put the U-Lock through the rear triangle and rear wheel so there is no room to get a tire jack in there without ruining the frame or rear wheel. Basically, I make it hard to let the bike go in ridable condition (therefore, being its own getaway).

    As for the weight messing up the handling, 60 pounds that far from the CG of the car is significant, but on the roof its worse, causing more body lean.. but really, 60 pounds of bike and rack vs. a 3400 pound car? Come on... really....

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Don't depend on the cable as your only deterrent. They are not hard to cut at all. Cable shears will do it in pretty short order.

    I like to put the U-Lock through the rear triangle and rear wheel so there is no room to get a tire jack in there without ruining the frame or rear wheel. Basically, I make it hard to let the bike go in ridable condition (therefore, being its own getaway).

    As for the weight messing up the handling, 60 pounds that far from the CG of the car is significant, but on the roof its worse, causing more body lean.. but really, 60 pounds of bike and rack vs. a 3400 pound car? Come on... really....
    Dam, that's an excellent idea! Thanks, I'll do just that, have both a cable and U-lock.

    I don't care about the weight distribution all that much. It's already front heavy, but it has a boxer engine so I don't care, as long as my cargo is secured.

    It's just how well secured my bike is for off-roading and spirited driving. Unfortunately, I will probably not opt for a hitch rack (even though it is more fuel efficient). Does Yakima sell a fork-mount roof rack that doesn't discourage off-road driving? Or any other bike rack for that matter???

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDfreak
    Does Yakima sell a fork-mount roof rack that doesn't discourage off-road driving? Or any other bike rack for that matter???
    No one makes a bike rack that encourages off-road driving, roof, hitch, or otherwise. It's simple physics. You have a mass that is supported a certain distance from where forces are being applied, this turns into torque, and depending on the accelerations, you can see some pretty huge numbers for torque, no manufacturer would say that it's ok to drive off-road with a rack given this.

    Now, can you drive off-road with a rack? Sure, take it easy, don't go fast, etc, but manufacturers can't really plan for this, and then how would they deal with warrenty claims? People would take advantage of this issue.

    With that all said, I'd never go to a roof-rack (even though my car has rails). There's only so much weight that the roof can support, but as said before, it's going to raise the CG significantly, cause much more body lean, and so on. With my tow-bar and hitch rack, I have one hell of a solid interface that doesn't cause much more body-lean, and I even think it helps to counter the under-steer my car is notorious for. All this and I don't take a huge hit in my MPG, it's a win-win situation. Compared to a roof-rack, the hitch-rack pays for itself after a year or two. The roof-rack on the other hand continues to cost money, and the worst part is that this is true even when the bikes aren't installed, vs the hitch rack that I can just take off and set next to the car in 30 seconds. I would suggest that you keep the hitch rack near the car, it is bulky and not easy to move around, but if you do this it's real easy to deal with, and I leave it off when I'm not transporting bikes.

    10 years back, I think roof-racks were the best choice. Any hitch-racks that existed wobbled like crazy, the bikes "hung" from the top, causing marks/marrs on the downtube and simply banging into eachother and the car unless secured with bungees and even then they moved around a ton. To put it simply, they sucked. Roof-racks on the other hand often secured via a QR cam and most people had fairly light hardtails anyway (as well as SUVs may not have been as prevalent). Now, there are good hitch-rack options from quite a few manufacturers. These are secure, allow access to the rear of the vehicle, and they don't care if your bike has a QR axle, 15mm axle, or 20mm axle (or anything else). You don't have to lift it above your head, and you can even take the rack off fairly quickly. There are people that are absolutely freaked-out about being rear-ended, although I think they often fail to realize that if you are rear ended it's likely that the bikes on your roof-rack will go flying due to the transfer of forces and the fact that the bikes are a mass that are some distance from where they are attached to the vehicle. It's not to say that it will happen in every case, but the notion that you're somehow "ok" in a crash with the roof-rack is a little rediculous, not to mention if you are that accident-prone, you probably need to be thinking more than just "roof-rack vs hitch-rack" and get something that allows you to store your bikes inside, like a van.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  28. #28
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    How about just saving your spirited driving for when your not trasnporting your bike, and take your bike off the rack and put it in your house when your not on your way to ride.

  29. #29
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    I knew I saw something for this... sorry you had to deal with all these people that discourages what we do...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/EZ-Quick-Bicycle...item2305103c3e

    watch the video here!

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MsoUESYZZxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MsoUESYZZxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    i am no affilitated with any of these, but I do like to hit the twisties

  30. #30
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    I forgot about it because you need to position your cross bars at the appropiate locations to make it work. Didn't want to try with my car, but your factory crossbars would be perfect for it

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by qqfob
    I knew I saw something for this... sorry you had to deal with all these people that discourages what we do...


    i am no affilitated with any of these, but I do like to hit the twisties
    Yeah, but that's a 23lb carbon scott bike. Try my 46lb freeride bike.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by qqfob
    I knew I saw something for this... sorry you had to deal with all these people that discourages what we do...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/EZ-Quick-Bicycle...item2305103c3e

    watch the video here!

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MsoUESYZZxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MsoUESYZZxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    i am no affilitated with any of these, but I do like to hit the twisties
    Hmmmm...

    The only secluded parking lot I know wouldn't have cops would be a gravel parking lot up in the mountains. Time for some wannabe-rally Subaru action

    Thanks, now I have an excuse to drive in the mountains (however, I hope to hell I don't drive too spiritedly on the way up)

  33. #33
    rider
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    Awesome Yakima Deals

    I just heard about a website with some awesome deals on NEW Yakima racks. Its a new site, but they have a lot of stuff including replacement parts. If your in the market for a new rack or need some parts definitely check them out.

    [URL="http://www.racks4cheap.com"]

  34. #34
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwnhillr45
    I just heard about a website with some awesome deals on NEW Yakima racks. Its a new site, but they have a lot of stuff including replacement parts. If your in the market for a new rack or need some parts definitely check them out.

    [URL="http://www.racks4cheap.com"]
    Only 4 posts? Looks like a spammer to me...

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: siwilliams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill
    Only 4 posts? Looks like a spammer to me...

    You're not wrong, 4 posts, all mentioning his web site..

    Dirty, filthy spammer!

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AWDfreak's Avatar
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    211
    I got a $50 thick cable and a $25 Master Lock from Lowe's. It's now on the bike and rack, securing both to the factory rails. Both the lock and cable are thick as ****.

    As for the Yakima Forklift being sturdy, I've done enough maneuvers to realize it's a damned sturdy rack!




    https://img175.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=dsc00365z.jpg







  37. #37
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    that cable looks overkill!

  38. #38
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by qqfob
    that cable looks overkill!
    No such thing.

    If its worth doing, its worth overdoing.

    That, and cables are not hard to cut... even the thickest ones.

    Just had to add one more pic to keep up with you

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3LwF6uktn9GnZlUioqvVbw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.ggpht.com/_zZ7tZYTZu1o/S5MKPARJfOI/AAAAAAAANVk/94Az6GaNYOM/s800/IMG_0363.JPG" /></a>

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