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    Rivian Electric Pickup Truck - interesting to you?



    Here's the start of the new age of electric vehicles. More utility and off-road now.Rivian Electric Pickup Truck - interesting to you?-rivian-r1t-electric-truck-21-1-.jpg

    Found a Rivian Forum here if you are interested in the progress and delivery of this vehicle: https://www.rivianownersforum.com/
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    I like the bollinger better actually: https://www.bollingermotors.com/

    More practical less luxury.

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    When the battery and cooling capacity gets to the point that it will tow, I would consider it.

    Our MTB vacations involve camping, and even a smaller trailer like ours would be too much for that truck for anything over a few miles from home.




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    I can’t think of a better way to get to the trails, we’ll apart from being on a bike!

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    What is it going to cost though? Pickups are already $40k+ for something comparable to what they showed in the vid.

    How much of a premium for all electric?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69tr6r View Post
    What is it going to cost though? Pickups are already $40k+ for something comparable to what they showed in the vid.

    How much of a premium for all electric?
    According to the article in Ars (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/11...ting-at-61500/), the pickup starts at $69K -- or $61,500 after the $7,500 federal tax credit.

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    When the technology is fully evolved I'd be all over it. But that kind of coin on a start up endeavor is too much of a risk for my 9 to 5 a$$

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    It gets a lot of things right, though I hope they do a real truck at some point. You know, two doors, longer bed. But I think a strong hybrid makes a lot more sense at this point in time. ("strong," as in - extended E-drive time, plug in charge option, and a small gas motor on board basically as a generator to recharge the batteries under heavy load or during longer distance travel.) I'd really like a hybrid that would fit my bikes and gear inside and pull a small camper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    It gets a lot of things right, though I hope they do a real truck at some point. You know, two doors, longer bed. But I think a strong hybrid makes a lot more sense at this point in time. ("strong," as in - extended E-drive time, plug in charge option, and a small gas motor on board basically as a generator to recharge the batteries under heavy load or during longer distance travel.) I'd really like a hybrid that would fit my bikes and gear inside and pull a small camper.
    I agree with this.

    At the kind of cost required for something like this, I'm sort of vaguely, generally interested, but I'm sure as hell not gonna buy one anytime soon.

    I'd be very interested in the sort of range one could get with a strong plug-in hybrid compact/midsize pickup that could tow, say 5,000-6,000lb or so. Nothing crazy, but solid enough. The Bollinger hits the towing/hauling numbers no problem, but the range is rather pitiful (would be significantly less if towing, of course).

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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    When the battery and cooling capacity gets to the point that it will tow, I would consider it.



    I only skimmed but it seems they claim 400 mile range, 700hp and 11,000lb towing capacity. Maybe I read wrong.


    Either way I think electric vehicles and coming soon, lots of advantages and their problems will be overcome.
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    I've been keeping my eye on the Bollinger as well, I like it's versatility. The Rivian needs a shorter plus cab and a longer bed to make it work for me.

    There are other players in the PU market, we'll see how it shakes out. I like Workhorse's idea of a hybrid, use 100% electric for your daily driving, and gas on longer road trips.

    https://workhorse.com/pickup/

    XT Pickup Truck – Atlis Motor Vehicles

    And lots of eletric versions of existing cargo vans coming, but they all have short ranges suited for tradesmen and delivery, not so much for vanlife people.

    Rivian has dropped their SUV as well. Starts at $73k.

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/...auto-show-2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I've been keeping my eye on the Bollinger as well, I like it's versatility. The Rivian needs a shorter plus cab and a longer bed to make it work for me.

    There are other players in the PU market, we'll see how it shakes out. I like Workhorse's idea of a hybrid, use 100% electric for your daily driving, and gas on longer road trips.

    https://workhorse.com/pickup/

    XT Pickup Truck – Atlis Motor Vehicles

    And lots of eletric versions of existing cargo vans coming, but they all have short ranges suited for tradesmen and delivery, not so much for vanlife people.

    Rivian has dropped their SUV as well. Starts at $73k.

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/...auto-show-2018
    Wow, that workhorse is a great concept, pretty much exactly what I had in mind! I kinda hope that some company like that will come out with a versatile conversion kit that would work on my Canyon and other similar vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Wow, that workhorse is a great concept, pretty much exactly what I had in mind! I kinda hope that some company like that will come out with a versatile conversion kit that would work on my Canyon and other similar vehicles.
    Yeah, looks pretty good. I'd honestly prefer better range out of hybrid mode, though. 400-500mi, preferably. It must have a pretty small fuel tank if it'll only pull 310mi range out of 28/32mpg. That puts the fuel tank at about the same as my Honda Fit, which is just a 10gal tank. Put a 15gal tank on it, maybe?

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    Very interesting.....I bet there will be electric vehicle charging stations at the trailheads in the future

    Pretty neat it can tow....I wonder how many people drag their travel trailer under 100 miles to go camping at a RV park. Charge the truck at the RV park....enjoy the weekend....tow back home all while not having to worry about fuel.

    The 180kw pack is amazing.

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    I wish it was publicly traded, I'd buy some stock asap.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wankel7 View Post
    Very interesting.....I bet there will be electric vehicle charging stations at the trailheads in the future

    Pretty neat it can tow....I wonder how many people drag their travel trailer under 100 miles to go camping at a RV park. Charge the truck at the RV park....enjoy the weekend....tow back home all while not having to worry about fuel.

    The 180kw pack is amazing.
    Could use your RV generator to recharge as well.

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    Went ahead and preordered one. Fully refundable at any point so no risk if it doesn’t end up meeting specs or just prices itself out of a reasonable budget with the bigger packs.

    This thing really is geared towards adventure. Air compressor fittings in the bed(stock air ride suspension.). Fully integrated cable lock system in bed. Fully retractable tonneau. Hopefully in 2yrs when it is released charging infrastructure is catching up or if Tesla open sources their super charge stations.

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    Anyone who is interested in Rivian, check out this forum! https://www.rivianautomotiveclub.com...ivian-keychain THE FIRST 1,000 members get a FREE Rivian Key Chain!

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    Who cares what it can tow....the thing does 0-60 in 3 seconds!

    I am curious how the Bollinger only has a 200 mile range while the Rivian is 400+. I'd think trucks, by their very nature of being robust and heavier duty than cars, could reduce payload slightly and increase range. The Bollinger as an example has a payload of 5000 lbs, how about add another 1000 lbs of battery as an option, decrease payload to offset (probably not a 1:1), but still have plenty to haul the necessities of day to day life....just not a pallet of CMU's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69tr6r View Post
    What is it going to cost though? Pickups are already $40k+ for something comparable to what they showed in the vid.

    How much of a premium for all electric?
    Don't be ridiculous,

    Serious gas and diesel powered bro-dozers are more like 60-80K these days


    As far as the electric trucks, this seems to be where a hybrid/small combustion engine to charge the battery would be very useful, like you are going to go camp for the weekend, take a trip, etc. Kind of like the Volt idea, but just make it a small auxiliary motor.
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    I like it, really interested about this company and Im hopeful that they will pull it off(production)
    Actually Im really surprised that Tesla hasnt gotten into the light truck segment yet.

    As far as the Bollinger is concerned, Im intrigued but cannot figure as to way they would make their vehicles look as if my 5 year old was the lead design engineer. To me, It makes not sense to design any vehicle with completely no aerodynamic features.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yeah, looks pretty good. I'd honestly prefer better range out of hybrid mode, though. 400-500mi, preferably. It must have a pretty small fuel tank if it'll only pull 310mi range out of 28/32mpg. That puts the fuel tank at about the same as my Honda Fit, which is just a 10gal tank. Put a 15gal tank on it, maybe?
    Workhorse is targeting company work vehicles. They've been making gas powered chassis for years and this electric vehicle has been in the pipeline for quite a while. I can't imagine your average work truck seeing 400 miles a day.


    Personally I'm a fan of the Rivian SUV. If it was a bit longer I'd consider trading in my Navigator for one, but I really like being able to fit my bike upright in the back of my suv without having to put the seat down.
    I will say I'm not a fan of the whole "everything runs through a touch screen" idea. Lincoln found out a few year back that there are some things that really just need their own buttons, and that being too "high tech" can actually be detrimental to the driving experience; like when you have to navigate through menus on the touch screen to turn off your seat heater while driving down the freeway.
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    Yeah, I am thinking of a truck as a road trip machine pulling my small camper. Possibly go with a camper shell so I can transport bikes in an enclosed space.

    I transport bikes in my Honda Fit that way, but one fatbike is about all I get comfortably. Have experienced how valuable that is for winter bike transport, out of sight bike transport when stopping for food or beers or whatever, and so on. I want to be able to take the shell off for home projects where I need an open bed, such as for loads of topsoil or mulch.

    If no camper shell, then probably a roof rack and trays above the bed.

    That road trip use is why I want more range. Not all trips will be that long, but driving 900mi in a day is not out of the question for me. Stopping to charge 5 times in a day simply isn't going to fly for my use. Stopping once for a couple hours to charge, maybe? Yeah, I'll do that.

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    I still have a hard time with battery powered vehicles at this point. The technology just isn't there yet for me. The first thing, like some have mentioned, is range. I like the 400+ miles I get now with my Tahoe's (road trip highway driving). Yeah, some electric cars are claiming ranges over 200 and 300 miles. But that's advertising, and under the best conditions. Turn on the A/C or heat, put 4+ adults in it, load it up with another 200 lbs of stuff, and guess what. 100 miles maybe? And like any battery, charged capacity shrinks over time.

    But the bigger issue I have is recharge. As it is now, I'll travel 400 miles, spend 10 minutes or less refilling, and I'm good for another 400 miles. With an electric car, I would have to wait hours, if not overnight, to recharge batteries. Forget about road trips. Just not practical.

    And here's another thing I'd like to see more detail on. I know the benefits of getting away from fossil fuels. But by going to batteries, aren't we just shifting the problem to some extent? I wonder what load there would be on our power grid if, say, half of America's 275 million registered cars are charging overnight every day. Remember, charging an electric car isn't the same as charging a phone. It takes 10 hours to charge a Tesla on 240 volts at 40 amps using their standard home plug in charger. That's a lot of juice. So my question is, how much of our fossil fuel footprint are we just moving from burning gasoline in vehicles, versus beefing up our current fossil fueled power plant requirements?

    And then, what do we do with the millions of tons of spent batteries once 100, 200+ million cars are using them? It sounds like battery pack life ranges somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 miles. They say the average American drives 14,000 miles a year (seems low to me, I drive a lot more, and I work from home!). Sooo... quick simple math (check me!)... 75k mile battery life (average) used at a rate of 14k miles a year... is 5.3 years. So every 5 years or so, we'll need to dispose of close to 140,000,000 battery packs (assuming half of America's cars are electric). At around 1,200 lbs per pack... that's around 168,000,000,000 lbs (84,000,000 tons) of batteries. Remember, after 5 years, these numbers become annual figures. To put that in perspective, we produce around 250 million tons of garbage annually. 84 million additional tons of batteries is an increase of around 34%. Pretty significant. I don't see an offset of garbage by dropping fossil fuel.

    I'm sure (at least I'm hoping) that someone a lot smarter than me has thought this through. But I'm just not convinced of that yet.

    Not looking for arguments, just pondering out loud. Speaking of pondering, way too much of it for me this morning... gotta get back to reality... and hopefully some mountain biking (as I haul my bike to the trail head using my 6,000 pound fossil fueled full size SUV ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    I still have a hard time with battery powered vehicles at this point. The technology just isn't there yet for me. The first thing, like some have mentioned, is range. I like the 400+ miles I get now with my Tahoe's (road trip highway driving). Yeah, some electric cars are claiming ranges over 200 and 300 miles. But that's advertising, and under the best conditions. Turn on the A/C or heat, put 4+ adults in it, load it up with another 200 lbs of stuff, and guess what. 100 miles maybe? And like any battery, charged capacity shrinks over time.

    But the bigger issue I have is recharge. As it is now, I'll travel 400 miles, spend 10 minutes or less refilling, and I'm good for another 400 miles. With an electric car, I would have to wait hours, if not overnight, to recharge batteries. Forget about road trips. Just not practical.

    And here's another thing I'd like to see more detail on. I know the benefits of getting away from fossil fuels. But by going to batteries, aren't we just shifting the problem to some extent? I wonder what load there would be on our power grid if, say, half of America's 275 million registered cars are charging overnight every day. Remember, charging an electric car isn't the same as charging a phone. It takes 10 hours to charge a Tesla on 240 volts at 40 amps using their standard home plug in charger. That's a lot of juice. So my question is, how much of our fossil fuel footprint are we just moving from burning gasoline in vehicles, versus beefing up our current fossil fueled power plant requirements?

    And then, what do we do with the millions of tons of spent batteries once 100, 200+ million cars are using them? It sounds like battery pack life ranges somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 miles. They say the average American drives 14,000 miles a year (seems low to me, I drive a lot more, and I work from home!). Sooo... quick simple math (check me!)... 75k mile battery life (average) used at a rate of 14k miles a year... is 5.3 years. So every 5 years or so, we'll need to dispose of close to 140,000,000 battery packs (assuming half of America's cars are electric). At around 1,200 lbs per pack... that's around 168,000,000,000 lbs (84,000,000 tons) of batteries. Remember, after 5 years, these numbers become annual figures. To put that in perspective, we produce around 250 million tons of garbage annually. 84 million additional tons of batteries is an increase of around 34%. Pretty significant. I don't see an offset of garbage by dropping fossil fuel.

    I'm sure (at least I'm hoping) that someone a lot smarter than me has thought this through. But I'm just not convinced of that yet.

    Not looking for arguments, just pondering out loud. Speaking of pondering, way too much of it for me this morning... gotta get back to reality... and hopefully some mountain biking (as I haul my bike to the trail head using my 6,000 pound fossil fueled full size SUV ).
    University studies showed some years back that the lifetime pollution caused cradle to grave by a Prius was THREE TIMES that of a new Hummer at the time. Hybrids are NOT ecologically sound. The battery mines are ecological disasters, as are the recycling facilities. To top it off, electricity is mostly produced from coal, a very dirty fuel. Then add that the internal combustion engine is way more efficient than they were when the study was done.

    Hybrids are also are not a good financial deal for all but for a select few (i.e. inner city taxi driver, someone in AZ that has a massive solar panel array and only does short trips). A Prius basically is an economy car that cost 2x what a comparable economy car would cost that already gets high 30s for economy. The additional cost of the Prius would pay 100% of your fuel bill on a true economy car for 15+ years. And by that point, the Prius will have already needed another round of $8K batteries setting you back another decade for payback.

    I really dig this truck product honestly, but I do buy my trucks for family road trips among other things, so I would have to rent a truck several times per year which just adds more expense.

    That said, Hybrids are really fun to drive and the technology is improving a great deal. Once batteries make the next leap and we continue to add cleaner sources to produce electricity, we might be golden.

    If your true desire is to save the environment and you need a truck, you would buy a diesel Colorado and leave it stock. They get over 30 mpg easily (My lifted 4x4 one in mixed driving has a lifetime average of 26mpg). Diesel engines are way cleaner than gasoline engine emissions at this point, the fuel doesn't evaporate (another major source of pollution), hell 35% less drilling and fuel hauling is required because they use 35% less fuel than a comparable gasoline version. And diesel fuel is essentially a left over by product left over from gasoline refining.

    If you want the most ecologically sound car you's buy a new Cruze diesel that averages over 50 mpg all day long for the same reasons as above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post

    Hybrids are also are not a good financial deal for all but for a select few


    The truck in question isn't a hybrid, at least I don't think it is. I agree that electric cars aren't completely "clean" like a lot of people think they are but that tech is moving forward and electric does have a lot of advantages. The motor(s) have like one moving part and require zero maintenance, and they are a lot cheaper to run.

    I understand the range limitation concerns a lot of people have but for most utilitarian purposes (commuting, work truck) there is plenty of range. I can definitely forsee a time when the internal combustion engine will seem archaic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    University studies showed some years back that the lifetime pollution caused cradle to grave by a Prius was THREE TIMES that of a new Hummer at the time. Hybrids are NOT ecologically sound. .
    Just going to point out that this is bunk.

    It was an editorial in a college newspaper. Far far far far far from 'University studies'. You're staying a lot of dubious information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The truck in question isn't a hybrid, at least I don't think it is. I agree that electric cars aren't completely "clean" like a lot of people think they are but that tech is moving forward and electric does have a lot of advantages. The motor(s) have like one moving part and require zero maintenance, and they are a lot cheaper to run.

    I understand the range limitation concerns a lot of people have but for most utilitarian purposes (commuting, work truck) there is plenty of range. I can definitely forsee a time when the internal combustion engine will seem archaic.
    I like the idea of single moving parts too. That's why I always thought using a small turbine/generator solution would be cool. That design could possibly be a single rotating shaft through/between a paired turbine and generator, both of which are "single moving parts" components. I know it's being worked on, just haven't seen much on it yet.
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    For me personally, the only reason I have a truck is because work requires it. But work also requires me traveling to site, sometimes 10+ hours away. Stopping somewhere 1/2 way into the trip to recharge just isn't possible.
    It is cool technology though.

    The'16 Silverado I drive was under $40k for a middle of the road package (remote start, heated seats, 4x4 extended cab etc). Still a lot less than $60k+

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Just going to point out that this is bunk.

    It was an editorial in a college newspaper. Far far far far far from 'University studies'. You're staying a lot of dubious information.

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    This.

    But to be fair a large amount of the energy used during a cars life is during its production so there is an argument that keeping a car on the road for as long as possible is better for the environment then buying a new one.

    Me personally, I'd rather have an electric car (preferably a wagon) and just keep the 99 Ford Ranger I bought for $700 around as a beater pickup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    This.

    But to be fair a large amount of the energy used during a cars life is during its production so there is an argument that keeping a car on the road for as long as possible is better for the environment then buying a new one.

    Me personally, I'd rather have an electric car (preferably a wagon) and just keep the 99 Ford Ranger I bought for $700 around as a beater pickup.
    Who said otherwise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    I still have a hard time with battery powered vehicles at this point. The technology just isn't there yet for me. The first thing, like some have mentioned, is range. I like the 400+ miles I get now with my Tahoe's (road trip highway driving). Yeah, some electric cars are claiming ranges over 200 and 300 miles. But that's advertising, and under the best conditions. Turn on the A/C or heat, put 4+ adults in it, load it up with another 200 lbs of stuff, and guess what. 100 miles maybe? And like any battery, charged capacity shrinks over time.

    But the bigger issue I have is recharge. As it is now, I'll travel 400 miles, spend 10 minutes or less refilling, and I'm good for another 400 miles. With an electric car, I would have to wait hours, if not overnight, to recharge batteries. Forget about road trips. Just not practical.

    And here's another thing I'd like to see more detail on. I know the benefits of getting away from fossil fuels. But by going to batteries, aren't we just shifting the problem to some extent? I wonder what load there would be on our power grid if, say, half of America's 275 million registered cars are charging overnight every day. Remember, charging an electric car isn't the same as charging a phone. It takes 10 hours to charge a Tesla on 240 volts at 40 amps using their standard home plug in charger. That's a lot of juice. So my question is, how much of our fossil fuel footprint are we just moving from burning gasoline in vehicles, versus beefing up our current fossil fueled power plant requirements?

    And then, what do we do with the millions of tons of spent batteries once 100, 200+ million cars are using them? It sounds like battery pack life ranges somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 miles. They say the average American drives 14,000 miles a year (seems low to me, I drive a lot more, and I work from home!). Sooo... quick simple math (check me!)... 75k mile battery life (average) used at a rate of 14k miles a year... is 5.3 years. So every 5 years or so, we'll need to dispose of close to 140,000,000 battery packs (assuming half of America's cars are electric). At around 1,200 lbs per pack... that's around 168,000,000,000 lbs (84,000,000 tons) of batteries. Remember, after 5 years, these numbers become annual figures. To put that in perspective, we produce around 250 million tons of garbage annually. 84 million additional tons of batteries is an increase of around 34%. Pretty significant. I don't see an offset of garbage by dropping fossil fuel.

    I'm sure (at least I'm hoping) that someone a lot smarter than me has thought this through. But I'm just not convinced of that yet.
    Well said...I'm not there either. Lots of advancements the last 10 years and the technology is improving but few electric owners have considered the long term issues you mention and negative impacts on environment, cost of ownership, etc.

    When considering entire life of the vehicle there are still many questions.

    Chevy Volt is a great example. Despite lots of hoopla about how great the Volt is, GM has announced they will stop production in March of 2019.

    Here are awards given to the Volt since 2009:

    U.S. organizations
    2009 Green Car Vision Award by the Green Car Journal at the Washington Auto Show for "a bold and far-reaching approach that promises to bring an exceptionally fuel efficient model to consumers at reasonable cost."[346]

    2011 Car and Driver Ten Best Cars. For the first time ever Car and Driver magazine included an electrically powered car among its 10 best.[347]

    The Chevrolet Volt won the 2011 Motor Trend Car of the Year award.2011 Motor Trend Car of the Year. The magazine commented that "In the 61-year history of the Car of the Year award, there have been few contenders as hyped – or as controversial – as the Chevrolet Volt."[348]

    2011 Green Car of the Year by Green Car Journal. The magazine editors explained that "This award welcomes a new genre of mass-production electric vehicles to the consumer market, with the Volt as the first-ever electric vehicle to take top prize."[349]

    2011 Automobile of the Year by Automobile Magazine. The editors commented that the Volt "...is genuinely an all-new car, in the most simplistic sense as well as in the greater notion that the Volt is unlike any vehicle we have ever driven."[350]

    2011 North American Car of the Year announced at the 2011 North American International Auto Show. Forty-nine American and Canadian automobile writers chose the Volt. The nominees were judged based on "innovation, design, safety, handling, driver satisfaction and value".[351]

    Listed among the 2011 Greenest Vehicles of the Year by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.[352][353]

    Listed among the 2011 Best Green Cars by Mother Earth News.[354]

    2011 Edison Award - Gold in the Transportation Category, Personal Transportation Segment.[355][356]

    2012 Best Resale Value Award in the category of electric cars by Kelley Blue Book.[194]

    2011 The Volt ranked first in Consumer Reports' list of owner-satisfaction based on its 2011 Annual Auto Survey, with 93% respondents who owned the Volt saying they definitely would purchase that same vehicle again. The magazine noted that the Volt had been on sale for just a few months at the time of the survey, and also clarified that the survey took place before the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration investigation regarding the Volt's battery fire risk.[357][358]

    2012 Total Cost of Ownership Award in the electric car category, granted by Kelley Blue Book for the lowest projected costs during initial five-year ownership period in its category.[359]

    2012 The Volt ranked first, for a second year in a row, in Consumer Reports' list of owner-satisfaction based on its 2012 Annual Auto Survey, with 92% respondents who owned the Volt saying they definitely would purchase that same vehicle again.[360]

    2016 Green Car of the Year by Green Car Journal (awarded to the second generation Volt). The Chevrolet Volt is the first model to receive this award more than once.[361]

    International organizations

    Opel Ampera exhibited with the 2012 European Car of the Year logo at the Geneva Motor Show2009 Festival Automobile International awarded the Grand Prize for Environment to the Volt.[362]

    2011 World Green Car announced at the 2011 New York Auto Show.[363]

    2012 International Engine of the Year Award in the category of Green Engine, shared by the Opel Ampera and the Chevrolet Volt for their 1.4 L engine-based extended-range electric powertrain.[364][365]

    European organizations
    2011 Overall Winner of What Car? Green Awards, granted by the UK magazine to the Vauxhall Ampera.[366]

    2011 Top Gear's "Green Car of the Year 2011" to the Vauxhall Ampera.[367]

    2012 Car of the Year in Denmark. In October 2011, 18 Danish motor journalists chose the Opel Ampera as "Car of the Year 2012" by a wide margin, despite being more expensive than the family cars the award usually goes to.[368][369]

    2012 European Car of the Year, shared by the Chevrolet Volt and the Opel/Vauxhall.[370] The Ampera/Volt became the first car developed in the U.S. to win this European award.[214][371]

    2013 Green Mobility Trophy. Readers of Auto Zeitung in Germany awarded the Opel Ampera the trophy and named the mid-size sedan the best electric vehicle.[372]

    Rest of the world organizations
    2012 Drive's Green Innovation Award to the Holden Volt, as part of the Australia's Drive Car of the Year Awards.[373]
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
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  33. #33
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    Financing on reasonable terms is about $200 for every $10k borrowed. Even at zero interest, a $61k truck should be over $1,200 a month.

    But everyone just stretches the loan to death now, 8 year loans are common to bring it down to a more tolerable 600-800 a month... at which point the car or truck is well past broken down, and you're still on the hook for a considerable loan, plus a *lot* of money lost to insurance.

    Im not knocking expensive cars. I work in high end, I see people come in and buy a $120k car and pay cash. I get it, but trucks like that are a different industry.

    Seems crazy to me. No thanks!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I like the bollinger better actually: https://www.bollingermotors.com/

    More practical less luxury.

    And less aerodynamic than a brick of a Wrangler! Heh

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    But everyone just stretches the loan to death now
    Or worse, leasing.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  36. #36
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    For urban living. Trips to HomeDepot, driving to trail head, camping, towing small trailers, Costco, I would say yes. Anything off the beaten track, then no.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    University studies showed some years back that the lifetime pollution caused cradle to grave by a Prius was THREE TIMES that of a new Hummer at the time. Hybrids are NOT ecologically sound. The battery mines are ecological disasters, as are the recycling facilities. To top it off, electricity is mostly produced from coal, a very dirty fuel. Then add that the internal combustion engine is way more efficient than they were when the study was done.

    Hybrids are also are not a good financial deal for all but for a select few (i.e. inner city taxi driver, someone in AZ that has a massive solar panel array and only does short trips). A Prius basically is an economy car that cost 2x what a comparable economy car would cost that already gets high 30s for economy. The additional cost of the Prius would pay 100% of your fuel bill on a true economy car for 15+ years. And by that point, the Prius will have already needed another round of $8K batteries setting you back another decade for payback.

    I really dig this truck product honestly, but I do buy my trucks for family road trips among other things, so I would have to rent a truck several times per year which just adds more expense.

    That said, Hybrids are really fun to drive and the technology is improving a great deal. Once batteries make the next leap and we continue to add cleaner sources to produce electricity, we might be golden.

    If your true desire is to save the environment and you need a truck, you would buy a diesel Colorado and leave it stock. They get over 30 mpg easily (My lifted 4x4 one in mixed driving has a lifetime average of 26mpg). Diesel engines are way cleaner than gasoline engine emissions at this point, the fuel doesn't evaporate (another major source of pollution), hell 35% less drilling and fuel hauling is required because they use 35% less fuel than a comparable gasoline version. And diesel fuel is essentially a left over by product left over from gasoline refining.

    If you want the most ecologically sound car you's buy a new Cruze diesel that averages over 50 mpg all day long for the same reasons as above.
    There are massive economies of scale if you can centralize power production, both economic and ecological. One power plant that is constantly inspected at a very high level of standard is (in theory) much cleaner than millions of cars with questionable working emissions systems.

    Re; diesel vehicles. I don't think they are technical much better for the environment when you look at the entire life cycle. While they get better mileage, it's questionable if they are truly cleaner from an environmental perspective. Less CO2 but more of some other toxic emissions, I think NOX. From a ownership perspective, I don't think I'd purchase a diesel after going through the debacle with my VW TDI...and they are only getting more complex by the moment. They are very expensive to fix and have very complex emissions systems.....much more complicated than gas, which is why all those guys with the bro-dozers take it all off once it fails, or to get better mileage / performance.

    I think gas, LPG or CNG is where it's at personally, even though it's not sustainable when derived from fossil fuels. It's difficult to store on a vehicle, big cylindrical tanks are not easy to package, but it burns clean, is a domestic product and is simple and improves engine longevity....

  38. #38
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    The end of the Volt is not because it's electric - it's because it's a car. Lots of other cars were canceled at the same time. The bottom has fallen out of that market for now.

    I think you'll see electric more in utility vehicles like delivery vans and buses, the same place you saw propane and LNG, and for the same reasons. A "real truck with two doors and a long bed" is also a good candidate if it's being used for small jobs around town. If you are in a situation where you need to fill it with gas twice a day - like towing an RV - I don't think so, not unless the battery pack exchange idea comes to fruition. It's only going to work if you can drive it from charger to charger and leave it on another charger all night like Tesla's battery delivery trucks.

    Hey, here's an article
    https://interestingengineering.com/t...duction-review

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    There are massive economies of scale if you can centralize power production, both economic and ecological. One power plant that is constantly inspected at a very high level of standard is (in theory) much cleaner than millions of cars with questionable working emissions systems.

    Re; diesel vehicles. I don't think they are technical much better for the environment when you look at the entire life cycle. While they get better mileage, it's questionable if they are truly cleaner from an environmental perspective. Less CO2 but more of some other toxic emissions, I think NOX. From a ownership perspective, I don't think I'd purchase a diesel after going through the debacle with my VW TDI...and they are only getting more complex by the moment. They are very expensive to fix and have very complex emissions systems.....much more complicated than gas, which is why all those guys with the bro-dozers take it all off once it fails, or to get better mileage / performance.

    I think gas, LPG or CNG is where it's at personally, even though it's not sustainable when derived from fossil fuels. It's difficult to store on a vehicle, big cylindrical tanks are not easy to package, but it burns clean, is a domestic product and is simple and improves engine longevity....
    I struggled to get the article to attach. Modern diesel engines are considerably cleaner than gasoline engines. The NO requirement is the exact same for a gas motor as it is for a diesel motor. Diesels have solved the nitric oxide issue through the use of diesel exhaust fluid for about 7 model years now. To top it off with the introduction of direct injection to gasoline engines they are now producing black particulate matter similar to old diesels. Brand new ones puff black smoke, and the tailpipes all have black residue where modern diesels have nothing but dust in the tailpipe.
    I would not recommend diesel as a cost saving measure Unless you tow or commute an awful lot, just like I would not recommend a hybrid as a cost saving measure. I was just pointing out that it is the most environmentally sound choice, when left stock of course.

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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I struggled to get the article to attach. Modern diesel engines are considerably cleaner than gasoline engines. The NO requirement is the exact same for a gas motor as it is for a diesel motor. Diesels have solved the nitric oxide issue through the use of diesel exhaust fluid for about 7 model years now. To top it off with the introduction of direct injection to gasoline engines they are now producing black particulate matter similar to old diesels. Brand new ones puff black smoke, and the tailpipes all have black residue where modern diesels have nothing but dust in the tailpipe.
    I would not recommend diesel as a cost saving measure Unless you tow or commute an awful lot, just like I would not recommend a hybrid as a cost saving measure. I was just pointing out that it is the most environmentally sound choice, when left stock of course.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    And if manufacturers were actually producing these strangled diesel engines you mention, you'd have a point, but they do not. Trucks and our industrial equipment is exempt from those requirements and no one is building cars because you have to cheat to make it comparable to gas cars for performance.

    The post above is correct, economy of scale and being able to beam power out to outlets is where it's at. We may not have all the infrastructure we need for that, but we do have some (unlike pie-in-the-sky ideas like hydrogen). The genius of the electric car is that it doesn't care how the power was generated, geothermal, wind, solar, tidal, fusion, fission, coal, natural gas, etc. Most cities these days are building scalable gas-turbine units because they are so cheap and easy to operate and the efficiency is over 65%, breaking the long-time barrier of 50% years ago. Looking at all the other costs associated with transporting fuel to a million little gas stations, holding tanks, transportation tanks, vehicles and tankers to transport the fuel, the machines that are used to make those machines, it's insane to think that has any kind of future. There were plenty of alarmists saying that the Prius batter wouldn't last a year, but they have been completely wrong. It's more efficient to beam power out and charge cars than have cars running their own ICE engines, getting fuel from millions of gas-stations and all the energy that is spent transporting that fuel to the end users.

    This is the future. It's not like one day a switch will be flipped and all cars will be electric and you'll have to give up your ICE, that's the kind of ridiculous stuff that those afraid of the future like to try and push. We now have electric vehicles driving every on highways and roads, stuff that was science fiction when I was growing up. They will continue to get better and more accessible. If you really want a wake-up call, go see what they said about ICE engines as compared to horses when the ICE was first being developed for automobiles.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I struggled to get the article to attach. Modern diesel engines are considerably cleaner than gasoline engines. The NO requirement is the exact same for a gas motor as it is for a diesel motor. Diesels have solved the nitric oxide issue through the use of diesel exhaust fluid for about 7 model years now. To top it off with the introduction of direct injection to gasoline engines they are now producing black particulate matter similar to old diesels. Brand new ones puff black smoke, and the tailpipes all have black residue where modern diesels have nothing but dust in the tailpipe.
    I would not recommend diesel as a cost saving measure Unless you tow or commute an awful lot, just like I would not recommend a hybrid as a cost saving measure. I was just pointing out that it is the most environmentally sound choice, when left stock of course.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    I hear what you are saying but I think the reality of the situation (like anything) is blurred, for every article touting diesel you have one like this:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42666596

    "The reality is not as black and white as you might think. It's true that some diesel engines produce fewer toxic emissions than some petrol engines, but by and large petrol remains the cleaner option."

    Granted it's Euro based, but they have had a much longer tenure with diesel than we have....

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    Yes, Euro diesels are not even close to as clean as USA diesels. They don't even have DEF systems. They are about a decade behind us.
    Furthermore, just because VW ( and their subsidiaries) were caught cheating on diesels, doesn't mean anyone else is. Trust me, all are being tested.
    Anyways, I don't care. Buy what you want.
    Hybrids aren't Green. And they don't save money. Period. People are talking about hydro power electricity but the reality is they all go home and plug in to coal fired electricity. But they make people feel good.
    And by the way, I think this electric truck is rad. And I wish the stock was traded as I'd snatch some up.

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Yes, Euro diesels are not even close to as clean as USA diesels. They don't even have DEF systems. They are about a decade behind us.
    Furthermore, just because VW ( and their subsidiaries) were caught cheating on diesels, doesn't mean anyone else is. Trust me, all are being tested.
    Anyways, I don't care. Buy what you want.
    Hybrids aren't Green. And they don't save money. Period. People are talking about hydro power electricity but the reality is they all go home and plug in to coal fired electricity. But they make people feel good.
    And by the way, I think this electric truck is rad. And I wish the stock was traded as I'd snatch some up.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certain that they use DEF systems on the Euro 6 vehicles, which were introduced a few years back now. That article I linked was comparing Euro 6 diesel to petrol....again, I realize there are two sides but it's certainly not as black and white as you make it...

    Everything I've read indicates EV's are cleaner relative to oil based rigs:

    https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmu...aner-than-ever

    Of course we can go round and round on total life cycle, battery disposal, etc. I think there are some good arguments AGAINST EV's, but centralized power, coal or otherwise, is not one of them.

  44. #44
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    This tech looks prett dang cool. Not economically feasible yet, but plenty of opportunity for it to get there.

    https://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/...wS6QdBMRJ4CVOs

    Hybrids are an intermediate stage until battery tech gets ev's adequate range. Would be nice if ev's used a hot-swappable standardized battery that could be exchanged at a filling station for a charged one in 10min. IIRC, old ev's in India do this.

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    A point in favor of hybrids and electrics that I haven't seen mentioned is regenerative braking. Really nice to have this in the mountains. Not only an energy saver, but a brake saver. Recharge the battery instead of turning it all into heat and polluting the environment with brake pad bits.

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    With the performance numbers and all the other features, I already started saving. I can't wait to be driving an electric truck or better yet tall roof Van.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ob917 View Post
    With the performance numbers and all the other features, I already started saving. I can't wait to be driving an electric truck or better yet tall roof Van.
    Already started saving... I've heard other folks say this. Even folks I didn't think were in the market.

    I guess this is one of the purposes of such an early pre-announcement before delivery.


    Found a Rivian Forum here if you are interested in the progress and delivery of this vehicle: https://www.rivianownersforum.com/

    Rivian Electric Pickup Truck - interesting to you?-axurypm.jpg
    IPA will save America

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Already started saving... I've heard other folks say this. Even folks I didn't think were in the market.

    I guess this is one of the purposes of such an early pre-announcement before delivery.


    Found a Rivian Forum here if you are interested in the progress and delivery of this vehicle: https://www.rivianownersforum.com/

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Buy one....maybe.....where do I invest though... anyone have the ticker ?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wankel7 View Post
    Buy one....maybe.....where do I invest though... anyone have the ticker ?
    Not a public company. Looks like they've received hundreds of millions in funding though from venture capitalists and private equity.

    When a company is this young, you either have to be very rich or join as an employee to get a piece of the pie.
    IPA will save America

  50. #50
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    Amazon/Bezos invested 700 mill in them.

    Coolest part of the design is the possibilities/opportunities in handling afforded by a motor for each wheel. Like a big RC car that can do 360s in one spot. xD

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Amazon/Bezos invested 700 mill in them.
    That's it. I'm reinvesting in Amazon.

    There's a good South Park episode i hear where we will all pretty much be working for Amazon. The comedic theory already holds true in some percentage.
    IPA will save America

  52. #52
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    I have no doubt that Amazon will be taking over pretty much everything within the next 10 years.

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    The electric pickup space is going to explode by the end of 2020 with Rivian, Tesla and an F150 - which would align with the F-series next design update.

    While Tesla and Rivian are pioneers in the electric space, I think Ford could clean up in bringing an electric platform to the F- Series. Ford has the advantages of consumer familiarity, brand loyalty, best selling full sized truck (by far), and plenty of money to invest in technology and infrastructure. They obviously know what people want in a truck and how to dominate this space.

    Rivian looks great and it’s exciting, but as a current (2018) F-150 owner who like millions of other owners, loves the truck, I’m going to wait, compare the big three and let the best one win my business.

    https://youtu.be/EZVzVgHIhH8


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