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  1. #1
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    need for a quick estate

    So I am looking for a new set of wheels. What I am looking for is a great cornering estate with about 200 ponies. It should easily fit two bikes in the boot with no need to recline the rear seats. I don't like SUV's, Trucks, Mini vans or any other car the seats high. Oh and I am in EU. Below my shortlist which one would you pick or are you missing:

    Volvo - New V70 2.5T - 200 ponies
    BMW - current 530d or 530i estate
    Ford - New Mondeo 2.5T estate - 220 ponies
    Subaru - Legacy 3.0R

  2. #2
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    what abut audi A4 or A6 estates?

    We have a Volvo XC70 - gets 2 bikes in no probs if you take the front wheels off.

  3. #3
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    Must be a European term....what the hell is an estate?
    - Brian
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asha'man
    Must be a European term....what the hell is an estate?
    A station wagon or simply wagon in American, Australian and New Zealand usage and an estate car or just estate in British usage is an automobile with a body style similar to a sedan (saloon in British usage) but with an extended rear cargo area.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    what abut audi A4 or A6 estates? We have a Volvo XC70 - gets 2 bikes in no probs if you take the front wheels off.
    Not sure if I like Audi's, expensive and heavy VW's in my opinion. Well there is actually 1 I do like but that would be outside my budget...

  6. #6
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    your best bet is the subaru my friend

  7. #7
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    Subaru 3.0

    Of the choices you listed, the Subaru 3.0 is by far the most dependable but gas mileage is not great. I'm lucky if I can get 25 mpg highway (that being a 4 quart US Gallon, not an Imperial measure). Around town, mileage is closer to 18 mpg.

    However, the AWD is great in our North East US winters and normally I only drive 11 miles a day back and forth to the train station so the low mpg is not a problem.

    Easily fits two bikes minus the front wheels behind the rear seat.
    Last edited by Rev Bubba; 10-30-2007 at 08:51 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzzi
    So I am looking for a new set of wheels. What I am looking for is a great cornering estate with about 200 ponies. It should easily fit two bikes in the boot with no need to recline the rear seats. I don't like SUV's, Trucks, Mini vans or any other car the seats high. Oh and I am in EU. Below my shortlist which one would you pick or are you missing:

    Volvo - New V70 2.5T - 200 ponies
    BMW - current 530d or 530i estate
    Ford - New Mondeo 2.5T estate - 220 ponies
    Subaru - Legacy 3.0R

    Get the the 2.5T V70 and chip it ($1,000) to 250 HP or get a 2007 V70 T5 (250 HP) (chipable to 300). The 2.5T is more tractable. And of course always the R (all wheel; 300 HP) in 2007 but not in 2008.

    The chip kits are very well reviewed, and the original specs can be reinstalled in a minute by the same device.

    The V70s have more cargo area than the others; the BMW is compromised by angled windows.

    Volvo Sport seats are the most comfortable I have ever used.

    More cargo capacity than the Legacy and much better aesthetics.
    Last edited by BadHabit; 10-30-2007 at 08:28 AM.

  9. #9
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    I would choose the Subaru Legacy. Easily outperforms the Volvo in spirited driving, handling,better reliability, best AWD, and probably cheaper. Top Gear ( may have been Fifth Gear)compared the Legacy & Volvo at the track back to back and the Legacy won it hands down. I recall the test driver's commenting on what a great handling car the Legacy was, and what a mushy "dog" the Volvo was for a "supposedly" sporty wagon. I'm not familiar with the Ford or the Bimmer.
    Last edited by BlackCanoeDog; 10-30-2007 at 08:57 AM.

  10. #10
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    dont forget that volvos are complete crap. if problematic turbos and over priced replacement parts get you excited, than definately buy the volvo

  11. #11
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    Put a Passat V6 4Motion on your list as well.

    I'd shy way away from Volvo. Ford is unsuccessfully trying to dump them for a reason. The acquisition didn't help much with their once-legendary bulletproof reputation.

    If you're looking at a turbo, you can always do an a4 2.0t, and have quattro. Get a different ECU with the chip and plug it in, then swap ecus for service time. This is a pretty reliable turbo engine and Audi has been at it since about 80-81 or so, with the first real reliable turbo systems being introduced in 1985 and the first ones that actually had a flat torque curve coming online in late 1987. The 2.7t had problems, as I've seen, but the 1.8 and 2.0t are fine.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by obs08
    dont forget that volvos are complete crap. if problematic turbos and over priced replacement parts get you excited, than definately buy the volvo

    Just to correct the record here, Volvos and all expensive Euro imports have expensive repairs, but failing turbos are not an issue with P2 Volvos--as long as you change oil. This can be confirmed by enthusiast boards.

    More important is to pay attention to model sequence. I have my issues with Volvo, but 2007s (last year of current model) especially have been sorted out. 2008s...not sure. First years of any model tend to be problematic.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Just to correct the record here, Volvos and all expensive Euro imports have expensive repairs, but failing turbos are not an issue with P2 Volvos--as long as you change oil. This can be confirmed by enthusiast boards.

    More important is to pay attention to model sequence. I have my issues with Volvo, but 2007s (last year of current model) especially have been sorted out. 2008s...not sure. First years of any model tend to be problematic.

    the thing about the volvos (and euros in general) is that there expensive repairs are repairs that are not expensive on japanese cars. and while volvo may have finally figured out how to make a car like you say, it sure took long enough. i work on cars for a living and have seens plenty of those bombs come in leakin oil from every where you look. im just a guy on a forum, so no one has to listen to what i preach, but i reccomend staying away from volvos (and euros)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by obs08
    the thing about the volvos (and euros in general) is that there expensive repairs are repairs that are not expensive on japanese cars. and while volvo may have finally figured out how to make a car like you say, it sure took long enough. i work on cars for a living and have seens plenty of those bombs come in leakin oil from every where you look. im just a guy on a forum, so no one has to listen to what i preach, but i reccomend staying away from volvos (and euros)

    I have had no oil leaks, but if the OP or anyone else needs further confirmation that what you say is otherwise entirely correct, I can provide it.

    I have a 2001 T5 Volvo wagon (116k) at home and a 1993 Toyota V6 wagon (145k) I keep in a city garage. The difference in frequency of repair is 30 to 1, and I am NOT exaggerating. My presumption is that 2002--2007 cars have had the bugs worked out.

    When the Volvo works, it works really great. (Although let's not talk about turning diameter.) I sensed the OP was looking upscale and for aesthetic design values, and Volvo delivers in that area. I have long worked in the design field and bought the new style as soon as it came out. The reason I still own the car is an indie mechanic of high character. Ken's Volvo Tech, Lake Bluff IL.

    You wouldn't believe my service invoice folder. Or maybe YOU would. Take it easy.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by obs08
    the thing about the volvos (and euros in general) is that there expensive repairs are repairs that are not expensive on japanese cars. and while volvo may have finally figured out how to make a car like you say, it sure took long enough. i work on cars for a living and have seens plenty of those bombs come in leakin oil from every where you look. im just a guy on a forum, so no one has to listen to what i preach, but i reccomend staying away from volvos (and euros)
    Myth #1 here.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Myth #1 here.
    and why is that?

  17. #17
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    Because I'm working on them and the internet has made parts easily accessible and cheap. On top of that, local parts stores are benefitting from better parts supply networks and I don't find the parts any more expensive than their counterparts. In fact, the actual difficulty of repair for many things goes to Japanese cars.

    If you're comparing a new A4 to an 88 Corolla, then maybe Euros are more expensive.

  18. #18
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    my wife has a subaru (forester) and I feel like they are underpowered. I have driven a few outbacks that I can say the same thing about. The awd is nice but hurts performance if you dont need it at the time.
    Am I going to get laughed off this board if I suggest a Saab? IMO they look great and seem to give a lot of attention to detail. born from jets baby.

  19. #19
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    Saab is no longer born from jets. GM began acquiring them in the late 80's, with the full takeover completed a few years ago as more and more shares went to GM.

    If you like cars that have "premium" body panels and other crap bolted onto Cavalier chassis bottom end cars), then go for a Saab. There's nothing special about them. They use the lowest end chassis possible, from cars that cost $10k USD, give them a pseudo-Saab identity, then send them to you. They suffer from the same awful low-end, beancounter controlled GM engineering that will become apparent at 100k miles. At this time, it will be apparent that these cars are meant to be replaced before 100k.

    Saab...born from Chevy Cavaliers...

  20. #20
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    The Subaru mentioned is a 6 Cylinder

    While it will never be mistaken for a high performance sports car, the 3.0 is anything but underpowered. Another option if performance is a criteria is the 2.5 Turbo model Legacy Outback.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Saab is no longer born from jets. GM began acquiring them in the late 80's, with the full takeover completed a few years ago as more and more shares went to GM.

    If you like cars that have "premium" body panels and other crap bolted onto Cavalier chassis bottom end cars), then go for a Saab. There's nothing special about them. They use the lowest end chassis possible, from cars that cost $10k USD, give them a pseudo-Saab identity, then send them to you. They suffer from the same awful low-end, beancounter controlled GM engineering that will become apparent at 100k miles. At this time, it will be apparent that these cars are meant to be replaced before 100k.

    Saab...born from Chevy Cavaliers...

    I think you are anti-Swede.

    No longer true--the Cavalier thing.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Saab...born from Chevy Cavaliers...
    damn, i was going to recommend the new cavalier wagon next. heard their almost "over" powered.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    I think you are anti-Swede.

    No longer true--the Cavalier thing.
    It's an equivalent "corporate" use low end chassis now.

    I used to love the Saabs, even when 1 in 5 were legally classified as lemons after the GM takeover, they were still putting out unique cars. My fav is still the 9000 Aero with the three spoked wheels at the end of the 90's, but they even messed that one up towards the end of the body style.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Put a Passat V6 4Motion on your list as well.

    I'd shy way away from Volvo. Ford is unsuccessfully trying to dump them for a reason. The acquisition didn't help much with their once-legendary bulletproof reputation.

    If you're looking at a turbo, you can always do an a4 2.0t, and have quattro. Get a different ECU with the chip and plug it in, then swap ecus for service time. This is a pretty reliable turbo engine and Audi has been at it since about 80-81 or so, with the first real reliable turbo systems being introduced in 1985 and the first ones that actually had a flat torque curve coming online in late 1987. The 2.7t had problems, as I've seen, but the 1.8 and 2.0t are fine.

    ok, im not going to get into one of those gay internet fights, so i take back everything i said about vovlos being crap.

  25. #25
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    I recently got a used Audi Allroad and am very content with it.

    One of the first things i did was search Audi and Allroad fourms to find good "Indy" mechanics in my area. Finding a good indy mechanic is key to not having to worry about getting ripped off by repairs. If you find a good mechanic that is specific to your manufacturer and has a great word of mouth you can't go wrong.

  26. #26
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    Sorta..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Put a Passat V6 4Motion on your list as well.

    I'd shy way away from Volvo. Ford is unsuccessfully trying to dump them for a reason. The acquisition didn't help much with their once-legendary bulletproof reputation.

    If you're looking at a turbo, you can always do an a4 2.0t, and have quattro. Get a different ECU with the chip and plug it in, then swap ecus for service time. This is a pretty reliable turbo engine and Audi has been at it since about 80-81 or so, with the first real reliable turbo systems being introduced in 1985 and the first ones that actually had a flat torque curve coming online in late 1987. The 2.7t had problems, as I've seen, but the 1.8 and 2.0t are fine.
    The 1.8 turbos in US B5 Passats were installed with a tiny oil sump to make room for the subframe. Combine the small 3.7 liter sump with the manual's 10k mile oil change recoomendation (later changed to 3.5k miles) and bonehead owners who use regular oil instead of synthetic, and you have a whole bunch of Passats who's oil pickup clogs with sludge and starves the engine, or the turbo oil return line clogged by coked oil causing turbo bearing failure. Its a bit of a chronic problem make worse by people who don't know they have to cool down their turbo cars after driving, and people who neglect regular maintenance.

    For some reason, this wasn't an issue on the Passats in Europe with less horsepower.

    I was seriously considering a used Passat 1.8t until I found lots of references to this problem. VW is warrantying the engines with this issue to 8 years/unlimited miles providing you have good documentation... and only if you actually have an engine failuire. They should do a recall.

    The old Audi 5000t in the 80s had an electric aux oil pump that would run for a few minutes after you shut the car off, pushing oil to the turbo to cool it down. I don't know why they didn't do this on the newer 1.8ts.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCanoeDog
    I would choose the Subaru Legacy. Easily outperforms the Volvo in spirited driving, handling,better reliability, best AWD, and probably cheaper. Top Gear ( may have been Fifth Gear)compared the Legacy & Volvo at the track back to back and the Legacy won it hands down.
    Don't forget that Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear proclaimed the Legacy Outback as being the best car in the world :
    http://www.topgear.com/content/featu...7/08/01/3.html



    But seriously, as the owner of a Legacy myself, I have to say that I couldn't be happier... unless we could buy the STi in Canada.

  28. #28
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    We have an 02 XC70 and a 99 A6 and all we ever do is regular servicing. I have changed out the rotors on both cars and that is it. We do about 15K a year in each car. There are a bajillion people i know with XC70's and XC90's and none complain about cost of repair or reliability issues. Same wirth the Audi owners i know. It's the beemers and mercs that seem to have reliability issues as far as I see it locally to me.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    The 1.8 turbos in US B5 Passats were installed with a tiny oil sump to make room for the subframe. Combine the small 3.7 liter sump with the manual's 10k mile oil change recoomendation (later changed to 3.5k miles) and bonehead owners who use regular oil instead of synthetic, and you have a whole bunch of Passats who's oil pickup clogs with sludge and starves the engine, or the turbo oil return line clogged by coked oil causing turbo bearing failure. Its a bit of a chronic problem make worse by people who don't know they have to cool down their turbo cars after driving, and people who neglect regular maintenance.

    For some reason, this wasn't an issue on the Passats in Europe with less horsepower.

    I was seriously considering a used Passat 1.8t until I found lots of references to this problem. VW is warrantying the engines with this issue to 8 years/unlimited miles providing you have good documentation... and only if you actually have an engine failuire. They should do a recall.

    The old Audi 5000t in the 80s had an electric aux oil pump that would run for a few minutes after you shut the car off, pushing oil to the turbo to cool it down. I don't know why they didn't do this on the newer 1.8ts.
    That was not an oil pump on the type 44 (5000). It was an electric coolant pump installed on the 85 and up MC engines, 1B, 3B, AAN, etc. It ran with the engine fan to reduce temps in the center section and throughout the engine, along with an injector cooling fan.

    My present 200TQ has 246,000 miles on it and on the original turbo. I've had several of these cars, in all the engine configurations, and I've only changed one turbo, which was a non-water cooled center section model. I also have only had one out of all of them that I used the aux water pump on, as they quickly became unreliable due to the embrittlement of the plastic fittings. I simply have them crossed over to allow coolant flow and I run a lower temp afterrun switch for the fan.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uzzi
    Not sure if I like Audi's, expensive and heavy VW's in my opinion. Well there is actually 1 I do like but that would be outside my budget...
    If you can afford a BMW 5 series, you can afford an Audi. Allroad is a nice ride, I love my A4 Avant, can't wait for the 3.0 TDI... well, I guess I have to wait a little longer since I live in the US.

  31. #31
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    It's actually the other way around- VW's are lower priced Audis. Audi is VAG's technology innovator and freely shares technology with Porsche (family ties still exist between the companies).

    After a few years, the technology ends up trickling down to the VW line.

  32. #32
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    Good info

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    That was not an oil pump on the type 44 (5000). It was an electric coolant pump installed on the 85 and up MC engines, 1B, 3B, AAN, etc. It ran with the engine fan to reduce temps in the center section and throughout the engine, along with an injector cooling fan.

    My present 200TQ has 246,000 miles on it and on the original turbo. I've had several of these cars, in all the engine configurations, and I've only changed one turbo, which was a non-water cooled center section model. I also have only had one out of all of them that I used the aux water pump on, as they quickly became unreliable due to the embrittlement of the plastic fittings. I simply have them crossed over to allow coolant flow and I run a lower temp afterrun switch for the fan.
    I dunno. I'm still considering a used Passat Wagon 1.8t with a stick, but the seller will have to convince me that s/he took care of it properly.

    Dang, the car is just the perfect size for us (maybe a tad big), and still gets decent gas mileage. I don't need a ton of power, but I don't want to be in the way, either. I would want to make it a bit sporty if we end up with a base model. Nice wheels, maybe suspension, that sort of thing.

    What is your experience with tuning the engine on those things? I hear of folks chipping them for more turbo boost to get another 10-20 hp out of it, but I would think you would eat into the turbo's reliability if you ran more boost. They run the turbos really hot in those things already.

    I think a turbo timer would be a for-sure add on. Anybody run external oil reservoirs on those things? External cooling sumps? Not that I'm a street rodder, just looking to give it all a little more headroom.

    BTW, just turned over to 201k miles on my '96 GTi. Still runs great. The oil cooler started seeping a bit of oil, so I replaced the o-ring and the oil filler cap gasket. No worries.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I dunno. I'm still considering a used Passat Wagon 1.8t with a stick, but the seller will have to convince me that s/he took care of it properly.

    Dang, the car is just the perfect size for us (maybe a tad big), and still gets decent gas mileage. I don't need a ton of power, but I don't want to be in the way, either. I would want to make it a bit sporty if we end up with a base model. Nice wheels, maybe suspension, that sort of thing.

    What is your experience with tuning the engine on those things? I hear of folks chipping them for more turbo boost to get another 10-20 hp out of it, but I would think you would eat into the turbo's reliability if you ran more boost. They run the turbos really hot in those things already.
    Pimpy,
    I have that exact same passat or close, you've seen it, the one with the back usually filled with beer. Anyway, I have a chip, an upgraded diverter valve, beefed up silicone turbo hoses, 17" avus rims (audi take offs $125 for 5) next is new suspension and a short throw shifter. we have probably one of the best Audi(and by default passat) tuning shops in the country at sears point check it out. http://www.stasisengineering.com/ make sure that your timing belt is done and that she always used synthetic oil. I do think that I need to do one of those autorx oil treatments though.

    feel free to carpool with me next time to boggs for a fun ride or maybe we can race

  34. #34
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    The 1.8t is bulletproof, as long as you do the TB at the required intervals. The chip should not effect reliability that much if you warm up and cool down properly. on a 2001-'02 A4, the 1.8t had 170hp, and GIAC or APR chip will get you over 220hp. I love quattro, dry or wet, it is fun. I have 110k miles on mine now, and have been doing all the work since 50k miles. The only time I don't appreciate it as much is after driving my wife's S-line A6 with the 2.7t and 265hp... I am already saving for it's replacement, a 2010 A4 3.0tdi avant...

    Porsche is in the process of buying VAG, so you could say that a VW is a low-end Porsche, kinda like a Mercedes is a high-end Chrysler

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