More quality issues plague Toyota.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    More quality issues plague Toyota.

    Has Toyota's quality dropped off the deep end? Last year they recalled 1 million vehicals and now over a half million at the begining of this year.


    TOKYO — Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) plans to recall about 533,000 Sequoia SUVs and Tundra pickup trucks in the United States to repair faulty components that could make the vehicles difficult to steer.

    Six injuries and 11 accidents were reported as a result of the defect, Japan's top auto maker said on Friday.

    Toyota, on its way to becoming the world's biggest auto maker ahead of General Motors Corp. (GM), has vowed to step up its quality efforts after a rise in vehicle recalls and increased scrutiny from Japanese media over quality issues.

    Click here to visit FOXBusiness.com's Autos Center.

    The latest recall covers certain 2004 to 2007 model year Sequoias and 2004 to 2006 model year Tundras, both built at Toyota's Indiana plant, the auto maker's U.S. sales unit said in a statement.

    Toyota as a policy does not disclose estimated recall costs. A spokesman said the auto maker has funds reserved against quality costs at all times and expects no impact on its earnings.

    Toyota last year recalled more than a million vehicles in Japan and 760,000 units in the United States, but the publicity has done little to hurt it. Toyota boosted its global sales by 9 percent in 2006, fueled largely by a 13 percent jump in sales in the United States.

    Toyota and its premium Lexus brand are perennial outperformers in the closely watched J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey in the United States, although the Toyota brand ranked second among non-premium brands in 2006, behind South Korea's Hyundai Motor Co..

    "Toyota has a lot of goodwill built up," said Christopher Richter, an auto analyst at CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets, adding that recall numbers would naturally rise with an increase in vehicles sold.

    Recalls have also been on the rise across the industry as car makers use common components on various models to save costs. The Tundra and Sequoia, both of which are due for a full remodeling, share most of the same components.

    Toyota will notify owners starting in mid-February and repair the defective front suspension lower ball joints free of charge.

    Toyota's shares were flat at 7,980 yen in Tokyo, roughly in line with the Nikkei ave
    rage.

  2. #2
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    The difference between Toyota and GM and Ford is that when toyota sees a problem they actually do a recall. Ford waits until someone dies. For instance on my 1997 F-150 there was a known issue with the lug nuts. Some of them had broken. There was no recall. Instead Ford felt a mass mailing would suffice. My 2001 Celica had 2 recalls. One for the belt tensioner making the belt squeak and another for the running lights being to bright to comply with new laws. Both fixed for free.
    This recall seems much more serious however. I find it interesting that the vehicles recalled are all made in U.S. Plants.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts
    The difference between Toyota and GM and Ford is that when toyota sees a problem they actually do a recall. Ford waits until someone dies. For instance on my 1997 F-150 there was a known issue with the lug nuts. Some of them had broken. There was no recall.
    There was a recall on the 1997 F150's lug nuts

    1997 FORD F150 Recall ID from NHTSA: 98V095000
    Auto Recall Date: 19980513
    Vehicle Component: WHEELS:LUGS/NUTS/BOLTS
    Estimated Vehicles Affected: 1520000
    1997 FORD F150 Defect Summary:
    VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: MULTI-PURPOSE VEHICLES AND LIGHT DUTY PICKUP TRUCKS. THE LUG NUTS ON THESE VEHICLES MAY NOT CREATE SUFFICIENT CLAMP LOAD ALLOWING WHEEL MOVEMENT IN RELATION TO THE HUB/ROTOR MOUNTING SURFACE.
    Defect Consequence:
    THIS CAN RESULT IN THE LOOSENING OF LUG NUTS, STUD FATIGUE FAILURE, AND THE POTENTIAL FOR A WHEEL SEPARATION FROM THE VEHICLE, INCREASING THE RISK OF A VEHICLE CRASH.
    Remedy:
    OWNERS OF THESE VEHICLES WILL BE RECEIVING TWO NOTIFICATIONS. THE FIRST NOTIFICATION, WHICH BEGAN IN MAY 1998, WILL PROVIDE AN INTERIM REPAIR PROCEDURE UNTIL PARTS BECOME AVAILABLE. THIS INTERIM PROCEDURE CAN BE COMPLETED BY OWNERS OR THEIR DEALERS. IT SPECIFIES THAT THE LUG NUT TORQUE MUST BE VERIFIED TO BE 100 LBS. THEN THE LUG NUTS NEED TO BE TIGHTENED AN ADDITIONAL 1/8 TO 1/4 TURN MORE. THERE WILL BE A SECOND OWNER NOTIFICATION, WHICH IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN JULY 20, 1998, UNDER WHICH DEALERS WILL INSPECT THE WHEEL STUDS AND REPLACE THE WHEEL LUG NUTS.
    Notes: FORD MOTOR COMPANY,

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    There was a recall on the 1997 F150's lug nuts

    1997 FORD F150 Recall ID from NHTSA: 98V095000
    Auto Recall Date: 19980513
    Vehicle Component: WHEELS:LUGS/NUTS/BOLTS
    Estimated Vehicles Affected: 1520000
    1997 FORD F150 Defect Summary:
    VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: MULTI-PURPOSE VEHICLES AND LIGHT DUTY PICKUP TRUCKS. THE LUG NUTS ON THESE VEHICLES MAY NOT CREATE SUFFICIENT CLAMP LOAD ALLOWING WHEEL MOVEMENT IN RELATION TO THE HUB/ROTOR MOUNTING SURFACE.
    Defect Consequence:
    THIS CAN RESULT IN THE LOOSENING OF LUG NUTS, STUD FATIGUE FAILURE, AND THE POTENTIAL FOR A WHEEL SEPARATION FROM THE VEHICLE, INCREASING THE RISK OF A VEHICLE CRASH.
    Remedy:
    OWNERS OF THESE VEHICLES WILL BE RECEIVING TWO NOTIFICATIONS. THE FIRST NOTIFICATION, WHICH BEGAN IN MAY 1998, WILL PROVIDE AN INTERIM REPAIR PROCEDURE UNTIL PARTS BECOME AVAILABLE. THIS INTERIM PROCEDURE CAN BE COMPLETED BY OWNERS OR THEIR DEALERS. IT SPECIFIES THAT THE LUG NUT TORQUE MUST BE VERIFIED TO BE 100 LBS. THEN THE LUG NUTS NEED TO BE TIGHTENED AN ADDITIONAL 1/8 TO 1/4 TURN MORE. THERE WILL BE A SECOND OWNER NOTIFICATION, WHICH IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN JULY 20, 1998, UNDER WHICH DEALERS WILL INSPECT THE WHEEL STUDS AND REPLACE THE WHEEL LUG NUTS.
    Notes: FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
    Interesting, I guess the mass mailing I recieved was in fact a recall notice even though it never said the word recall on it. I think a recall on 1.52 million vehicles is pretty serious though. Especially when its the bolts that hold the wheels on or something to do with steering. Other than that small problem however that truck was excellent. I put 150,000 miles on it with no problems. Toyotas quality has gone down as their production has gone up. I had an 85 Supra that ran flawlessly for 15 years and over 200,000 miles. What site did you get your info from? Toyotas are for the most part very good cars but their quality reputation is a bit overstated. They are good but not as good as some people think. My main problem with them is price.

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    toyota made in usa

    my friend is a service writer for a toyota dealership in riverside. he states that there is a noticable difference in reliabilty of cars made in US vs Japan. this has been true with the Camery which are now assembled is us. he has in the past several years bought toyotas but will only buys those still produced in japan.

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    Sort of blows the "BUY AMERICAN" thing out of the water. Since the OP has a chicken little mentality with his histrionic question "Has Toyota's quality dropped off the deep end?"... oh, hell, never mind. I won't ever buy an American car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Because
    my friend is a service writer for a toyota dealership in riverside. he states that there is a noticable difference in reliabilty of cars made in US vs Japan. this has been true with the Camery which are now assembled is us. he has in the past several years bought toyotas but will only buys those still produced in japan.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts
    Interesting, I guess the mass mailing I recieved was in fact a recall notice even though it never said the word recall on it. I think a recall on 1.52 million vehicles is pretty serious though. Especially when its the bolts that hold the wheels on or something to do with steering. Other than that small problem however that truck was excellent. I put 150,000 miles on it with no problems. Toyotas quality has gone down as their production has gone up. I had an 85 Supra that ran flawlessly for 15 years and over 200,000 miles. What site did you get your info from? Toyotas are for the most part very good cars but their quality reputation is a bit overstated. They are good but not as good as some people think. My main problem with them is price.
    Google search is probibly the best at finding recall notices. There are quite a few of them here although the f150 is the highest selling automobile in the world.
    http://www.automallusa.net/1997/ford/f-150/recalls.html


    Quote Originally Posted by filtersweep
    Sort of blows the "BUY AMERICAN" thing out of the water. Since the OP has a chicken little mentality with his histrionic question "Has Toyota's quality dropped off the deep end?"... oh, hell, never mind. I won't ever buy an American car.
    Not really. If you look at the last three years Toyota has had massive recalls. This is partly do to the modularity of there lineup. A lot of the parts they use between cars. This also may be an indication of growing pressure to produce more vehicles as sales increase.
    Last edited by AC/BC; 01-22-2007 at 05:22 PM.

  8. #8
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    So what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Google search is probibly the best at finding recall notices. There are quite a few of them here although the f150 is the highest selling automobile in the world.
    http://www.automallusa.net/1997/ford/f-150/recalls.html




    Not really. If you look at the last three years Toyota has had massive recalls. This is partly do to the modularity of there lineup. A lot of the parts they use between cars. This also may be an indication of growing pressure to produce more vehicles as sales increase.
    Toyotas suck? Heck, my family owned several Toyotas. All of them were well over 200k miles with no real problems, and my family is not really known for taking care of cars. I am, but not the rest.

    I can tell you right now, GM and Ford are well known for shiz canning problems until they can't any more. I have a friend who's GM paint was shedding after 3 years and 20k miles, and the dealership blamed her, even though the car was garaged for a year while she was out of the country. It took a class action lawsuit to get them to honor their own warranty... and this was not an isolated incident. After her story, and a bunch of others I have seen and heard, I will never buy an American car.

    Heh, I like the line 'cause a wheel to separate from the car, which MAY cause a loss of control'.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I can tell you right now, GM and Ford are well known for shiz canning problems until they can't any more.

    Toyota isn't without its complaints. If you dont believe me just read some of the complaints at the bottom. This topic was not started to be a domestic vs. Toyota debate - which is purely opinionated. In terms of reliability GM and Ford are now on par with the Japanese.

    2001 Toyota Tacoma
    Parts to the front suspension have fallen off, I have put on 3 sets of front rotors. The rear end blew up, the locking diff. went out, the fender flares warped and fall off. It won't start half the time. The seal in the windshield leaks air. The fuel doors rattles on the freeway. The front end vibrates, and the dealer can't fix it. The speedometer quit working twice, and this is all in 34,000 miles.
    Ryan Wern
    1999 Toyota Corolla CE
    electrical in doors shot, head gasket and water pump blew, only had the car for 1.5 yrs. 3years of payments left
    Debbie Bilodeau

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Toyota isn't without its complaints. If you dont believe me just read some of the complaints at the bottom. This topic was not started to be a domestic vs. Toyota debate - which is purely opinionated. In terms of reliability GM and Ford are now on par with the Japanese.
    It's understandable that Toyota would have problems. These are machines, and machines can have problems.

    But where in the world did you find any information that would lead you to believe GM and Ford are on par with the Japanese companies? That's not going to happen! Ever! (so long as GM and Ford aren't owned by the Japanese companies) GM and Ford are just as clueless as your claim! (no personal offense intended)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200
    It's understandable that Toyota would have problems. These are machines, and machines can have problems.

    But where in the world did you find any information that would lead you to believe GM and Ford are on par with the Japanese companies? That's not going to happen! Ever! (so long as GM and Ford aren't owned by the Japanese companies) GM and Ford are just as clueless as your claim! (no personal offense intended)

    Domestics are continually gaining ground on the Japanese where before they were lacking. Ford's new Fusion model earned high marks from both Consumer Reports testers and consumers who rated its reliability. Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ... to date the three sedans haven't had a single recall for anything minor or major, not an easy feat when you're launching all-new models. General Motors earned top ratings for the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Pontiac Vibe in predicted reliability. This is all according to Consumer Reports 2007 New Car preview.

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    Well, we're all entitled to opinions, and in all reality, there are no rights and wrongs.

    In all reality, a recall does not all of a sudden make a high-quality vehicle bad, nor does a lack of recalls make poorly built vehicles good.

    On an interesting side note to your comments about Consumer Reports, I used to work for a company that made home theater receivers. On year in Consumer Reports, we got three Best Buys for three different models in three different catagories (they only had three in that review, too!). Sales of these units went very well...unfortunately. These units were made by our parent company in Korea, and they were junk. We knew it, but the factories wouldn't do anything to improve their quality. CR said the predicted reliability was very good - on what grounds, we had no idea, since the predecessors were junk, too.

    If you've carefully studied the results in CR, you'll find that they are very inconsistent, especially between "sister" automobile models. For example, the electrical system may be problematic in one vehicle, but very good in the other, and they are exactly the same, including the components. I don't have any faith in CR. To each their own.

    And your examples only cite new models that have limited experience in the field. How do you think their resale will be? Check the resale on previous models, and you may have an idea (the ones that were supposed to have "new and improved American quality"). Do you think resale value may give a hint of quality?

    BTW, do you work for GM or Ford? (If you want to keep it private, you can PM me.)

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    The Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota.

    But I guess GM deserves its kudos on the trucks.

    This is the first I've ever heard about Toyota slipping. Say it ain't so!!

    This reminds me of the early Toyota trucks which were shipped from Japan as cab-chassis and fitted with beds at the American port. If you look at the old Toy trucks running around, the cabs look pretty good and the beds are rusted to *(#&$.

    I sure don't feel good being unpatriotic, but it seems that's the way things have been with cars.

    Hyundai has been the one to watch, it seems. Maybe I'll just get one of those!

    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Domestics are continually gaining ground on the Japanese
    lol...so that's why Toyota has now become the biggest automaker this year? Because the domestics are gaining ground? Are you mad? Toyota is STILL killing them, and Toyota is STILL GAINING GROUND on them.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanglefoot
    The Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota.

    But I guess GM deserves its kudos on the trucks.

    This is the first I've ever heard about Toyota slipping. Say it ain't so!!
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16697719/


    "Toyota recalled about 775,000 pickups and SUVs in May 2005 — one of its largest recalls ever — because of similar problems with the front suspension. The recall included 2002-2004 model years of the Tundra and Sequoia

    Toyota had 2.2 million vehicle recalls in 2005, but showed improvements last year when its recalls fell to 766,000 vehicles. "

    that's a pretty good improvement.
    I follow the business side of the industry a bunch because I find it extremely interesting. I used to be one of the US automaker bashers because of the nearly sufficating contracts with UAW, but I see the efforts the companies are making, and I think it is reflecting in their product, and how it is being received by the experts. (The Saturn Aura just beat out the newly redesigned Camry for Car of the year!) That's why I think the other poster said they were gaining ground, and I would agree with that in both quality and design. I find many of the new designs appealing. It's just my opinion, but if GM can do to their other brands as to the success they've done with Cadillac, they'll do alright again. They once had a similar revival program (called Zeta i think) that they were ready to do with some of there other brands but were hemeraging cash to it's employee benefits. For instance, the new Chevy Malibu has been really spiced up, especially on the interior. GM is spending an average of $200 more on it's interior. That is a lot of dough when you think about how companies scrimpt for pennies. The challenge will be to get the public to look and convice them it's worth it, without the deep discounts (I pretty much stole this last example from one of the CNBC segments this past weekend)
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Domestics are continually gaining ground on the Japanese where before they were lacking.
    And the Koreans continually gain ground on the domestics. Who know's ? In the near future, our decisions may come down to Japanese or Korean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbon Ken
    And the Koreans continually gain ground on the domestics. Who know's ? In the near future, our decisions may come down to Japanese or Korean.
    And as much as I hate to say, the reality is that soon after that we'll be talking Chinese.

    I still will never use the number of recalls to weigh the quality of the vehicle. A simple bad part is often the foundation of a recall, and if you think about how many parts go into each vehicle, it's impressive that all of the manufacturers do so well!

    BTW, service bulletins addressing problems are a different story. Ever count how many service bulletins there were for Ford's 6.0 diesel-powered lemon? And they buybacks were killing them, I'm sure!

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    I strongly believe that there is a difference in the quality of Toyota's vehicles made in Japan vs. those that are made in the US. The Tundra and Sequoia are only available in the North American market and are built here. I drive a 20yr old Toyota and love it. I have no doubt that I can drive it for another 20yrs if I so choose. I think the rapid growth of Toyota (now the largest auto manufacturer in the world) will lead to an overall decline in quality in the near term... but eventually, Mr. T will figure out how to overcome and deal with it's size. I have much more faith in their managment than I do in the domestic manufacturers. Still, if I were buying a new auto, I'd buy a Toyota or a Honda over Ford or Chevy... if for nothing other than a better resale value. GM and Ford have a LOOONG way to go to rebuild their reputations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200
    And as much as I hate to say, the reality is that soon after that we'll be talking Chinese.

    I still will never use the number of recalls to weigh the quality of the vehicle. A simple bad part is often the foundation of a recall, and if you think about how many parts go into each vehicle, it's impressive that all of the manufacturers do so well!

    BTW, service bulletins addressing problems are a different story. Ever count how many service bulletins there were for Ford's 6.0 diesel-powered lemon? And they buybacks were killing them, I'm sure!
    The problem with China is that they are really good with ripping off others ideas (bolt for bolt) but not very good with quality. Their auto's are crap.

    The Ford 6.0 diesel is possibly the worst engine ever made. 7.3 is the only way to go in a Ford.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tha1000
    The problem with China is that they are really good with ripping off others ideas (bolt for bolt) but not very good with quality. Their auto's are crap.
    So true. However, they are very aggressive in the learning right now. Since their auto companies are backed by the Chinese government, they are doing everything in their power to learn. Based one what I'm aware of what they have to learn from, it will be about 10 to 15 years before we really see something, but I can assure you that they will be a a very competitive player....I'm sorry to say.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Toyota isn't without its complaints. If you dont believe me just read some of the complaints at the bottom. This topic was not started to be a domestic vs. Toyota debate - which is purely opinionated. In terms of reliability GM and Ford are now on par with the Japanese.
    I did read that GM was rated by JD power about the same as Toyota, but I always wonder whether JDP ratings can be "bought" - GM is working very hard right now to improve public perception of their quality.

  22. #22
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    Toyota still number one in my books!

    After owning the big three I saw the light! Two years ago we dumped the wife's old Daytona for a Corolla, cheap and reliable, and literally sips gas! and yes I can even get my bike in there by folding down the back seat. Then I went even farther and got rid of my gas guzzling Dakota for a Honda Element. The Honda is not as well built as the Toyota but it is a very useful vehicle,and it is so ugly it has personality!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc
    I did read that GM was rated by JD power about the same as Toyota, but I always wonder whether JDP ratings can be "bought" - GM is working very hard right now to improve public perception of their quality.
    Couldn't agree with you more. I haven't trusted Consumer Reports or JD Power for years.

    If you want well-written, accurate automotive reviews, take a look at Car & Driver. The best car mag you can buy, IMO.

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    Show us the data

    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    In terms of reliability GM and Ford are now on par with the Japanese.
    And what is your source of this information? It is not what I see in the real world at all. The bigger cars and trucks seem to hold up well, but the compacts suck big square rocks through a straw. Case in point, the Focus is a disaster unless you get the top of the line one with the Mazda drivetrain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200
    It's understandable that Toyota would have problems. These are machines, and machines can have problems.

    But where in the world did you find any information that would lead you to believe GM and Ford are on par with the Japanese companies? That's not going to happen! Ever! (so long as GM and Ford aren't owned by the Japanese companies) GM and Ford are just as clueless as your claim! (no personal offense intended)
    +1
    My 98 4runner has 147+ miles on it and I havent had one issue other than routine service done. I thought about getting rid of it this year for a Tahoe or X5 but thought why should I get rid of it if its not run down or giving me problems. Domestic units are SLOWLY coming around in terms of competing w/ foreign auto makers. But, are not on par w/ them.
    Great example are the Toyota's or whatever else that are made and assembled in Japan oppossed to the same units assembled here.
    Same issue w/ vehicles made in Germany but are now merged w/ American companies.
    I had a late model e320 that had no issue's what so ever. Now I have e430 sport that is very problamatic and I blame Daimler.
    Closing: Got to love Toyota

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    And what is your source of this information? It is not what I see in the real world at all. The bigger cars and trucks seem to hold up well, but the compacts suck big square rocks through a straw. Case in point, the Focus is a disaster unless you get the top of the line one with the Mazda drivetrain.

    Peoples' perception of quality lags about 10 years behind reality. Just look at how many posters bring up examples of low quality vehicles built and designed <15 years ago and relate it to current products the manufacture is now making.

    Look at Oldsmobile, for example. The cars that they sold in the '70's and early '80s were generally pretty crappy. But they sold in record numbers. Why? Because consumers still had that "perception" of quality that Olds had a decade earlier. Olds had a 10 year feebie and squandered it.

    No one can deny that domestic manufacturers pretty much screwed the quality pooch for a long time (GM's "Road to Redemption" campaign even acknowledges this)...but now their are some pretty good products available and comming in the pipeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    No one can deny that domestic manufacturers pretty much screwed the quality pooch for a long time (GM's "Road to Redemption" campaign even acknowledges this)...but now their are some pretty good products available and comming in the pipeline.
    Yup, especially from Oldsmobile.

    They've always kept talking about the "newer" stuff. But not more than a couple years after the new stuff comes out, it's already been considered as typical low-quality American-made [email protected]

    Unfortunately, products that are designed the same, but made both here and Japan, lack
    quality when made here.

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    double post

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    It is simple probability. The more vehicles you produce the higher the odds you are going to have quality problems as you are also now stressing the abilities of your suppliers to make reliable parts. Before Toyota was not producing nearly as many vehicles so quality was much easier to maintain. You will find this to be true in any industry, quality instances will increase as production increases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16697719/


    "Toyota recalled about 775,000 pickups and SUVs in May 2005 — one of its largest recalls ever — because of similar problems with the front suspension. The recall included 2002-2004 model years of the Tundra and Sequoia

    Toyota had 2.2 million vehicle recalls in 2005, but showed improvements last year when its recalls fell to 766,000 vehicles. "

    that's a pretty good improvement.
    I follow the business side of the industry a bunch because I find it extremely interesting. I used to be one of the US automaker bashers because of the nearly sufficating contracts with UAW, but I see the efforts the companies are making, and I think it is reflecting in their product, and how it is being received by the experts. (The Saturn Aura just beat out the newly redesigned Camry for Car of the year!) That's why I think the other poster said they were gaining ground, and I would agree with that in both quality and design. I find many of the new designs appealing. It's just my opinion, but if GM can do to their other brands as to the success they've done with Cadillac, they'll do alright again. They once had a similar revival program (called Zeta i think) that they were ready to do with some of there other brands but were hemeraging cash to it's employee benefits. For instance, the new Chevy Malibu has been really spiced up, especially on the interior. GM is spending an average of $200 more on it's interior. That is a lot of dough when you think about how companies scrimpt for pennies. The challenge will be to get the public to look and convice them it's worth it, without the deep discounts (I pretty much stole this last example from one of the CNBC segments this past weekend)
    "Zeta" is the name of GM's all new RWD car platform. Its going to be used in the new Camaro, and all new RWD sedans and coupe that will be coming out in the next few years.

    I agree about GM coming a long ways. I think in the long run, they'll be in the best shape out of all the US automakers.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Look at Oldsmobile, for example. The cars that they sold in the '70's and early '80s were generally pretty crappy.
    not to mention the ones from the 90s and 00s that were crap.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    You guys crack me up.

    Toyota can do no wrong. For some people it does not matter anything bad that comes out about toyota or honda but these people feel they have to defend them by bashing the detroit automakers. Just accept the fact that toyota has slipped. The company is not GOD and should not be put on a pedestal like Pretty much all the cars on the market today to pretty decent quality. Don't sell yourself short and only consider the Japanese stuff.

    Still have a job? Keep buying foreign!

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    Depending on the model....by buying "foreign" you are still supporting the local economy. There are "import" car companies that provide thousands of jobs for the american and canadian economy. Bottom line....every company is going to have problems with some of their products....sooner or later. If you look after your car and perform the maintenance on time....your car should last for years; no matter what the make. Just my $.02.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Peoples' perception of quality lags about 10 years behind reality. Just look at how many posters bring up examples of low quality vehicles built and designed <15 years ago and relate it to current products the manufacture is now making.
    I'm talking about recent stuff.

  35. #35
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    I'll always buy American (cars)

    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC
    Has Toyota's quality dropped off the deep end? Last year they recalled 1 million vehicals and now over a half million at the begining of this year.


    rage.
    I have always had American cars and will always have an American car.
    My first car a 1972 Chevy Chevelle, 250,000 miles, 0 problems
    second, 1977 Chevy C2500 truck, 173,000 miles, 2 starters, 1 water pump
    third, 1985 Chevy S10 Blazer, 85,000 miles, 0 problems
    forth 1988 Jeep Wrangler Sahara, 220,000, 1 starter, 1 waterpump...I still own this Jeep that I bought brand new.
    fifth, 1995 Chevy Silverado 1500, 200,000 miles, 1 fuel pump
    sixth, 2001 GMC Yukon XL 75,000 miles,0 problems
    Last but not least, 2003 Chevy Avalanche, 85,000 miles, 0 problems


    So why would I have any reason to buy anything but American? The only experience I have had with a Japanese car was my wife's 1987 Toyota Supra that she had when we met, it was'nt so bad, but had more problems thaen any of my past cars, or our current one's. It seemed when something did go wrong with the Supra, it was a ridiculous expense to fix it.

    I know that there was a time when American cars had a bad rap, late 70's- early 80's, but I feel confident now that American cars are the among the best in the world.

  36. #36
    SCC
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    So you must have a really good memory ? I take it on all those cars you never had a squeak a rattle or a clunk, you know all those little things that people run back to the dealer for today.As for buying American you should check the current numbers of Americans and Canadians building those foreign jobs ! Maybe your actually supporting the wrong manufacturer. l

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    Yeah, I must have a really good memory.
    For the most part these vehicles did not have much of a squeak or rattle, at least to the point that any other car brand would have.
    I know most vehicles, foreign or domestic have parts sourced from other countries, but American cars, support the American economy more so than, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes,etc who produce cars over here. Back when all these foreign manufactures were allowed to begin producttion over here, it was to be that 65% of the parts for each car had to be produced over here, today, only about 35% is, at least thats what I have read. I do give some credit to those companies, because they do employ American workers, but where do you thimk the majority of the profits go?
    When or if that day comes when Toyota is the worlds largest automaker, its going to be a very dark day, a day that we Americans should be very ashamed of.

    I know I'm beating a dead horse to convince any of you to consider buying a American car,
    but if believe your job or your way of life is secure, keep supporting other countries economies, just dont go crying to someone who does support the American workforce, when that comes to an end.

    One other tidbit that pisses me off " I support our troops" or "god bless America" stickers I see on a Toyota or Honda. That says to me, "while I support our troops, I dont support the American worker"
    Even if I thought that a Chevy of Ford was subpar to Honda or Toyota, I'd still buy a Chevy or Ford, just for the sake of Buying American!

  38. #38
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    Still have a job?

    Still have a job? Keep buying foreign.

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    They are still supporting the north american economy by buying a...let's say a Toyota. I know many ppl who have had lots of luck with their GM, Ford or Chrysler product and they continue to buy them...and I like products the big 3 have produced in recent years...especially the trucks! However, I believe that many more people these days have moved over to a foreign make because of car magazines that do comparisons and lemon aid guides on used cars. I think people will continue to spend their coin on a car that does well in the ratings...hence the best selling car in your country is the Toyota Camry. In Canada, it's the Honda Civic. Both models have major assembly plants all around North America. If your VIN starts with a 1...it was made in the US. If it starts with a 2...it was made in Canada.

    That message about how a support our troop sticker shouldnt be on any toyota..etc made me laugh. Sorry, that thought just doesnt make any sense to me. It just sounds like you're making them out to be the bad guys.
    Last edited by prelude_guy97; 02-28-2007 at 02:52 PM.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by prelude_guy97
    They are still supporting the north american economy by buying a...let's say a Toyota. I know many ppl who have had lots of luck with their GM, Ford or Chrysler product and they continue to buy them...and I like products the big 3 have produced in recent years...especially the trucks! However, I believe that many more people these days have moved over to a foreign make because of car magazines that do comparisons and lemon aid guides on used cars. I think people will continue to spend their coin on a car that does well in the ratings...hence the best selling car in your country is the Toyota Camry. In Canada, it's the Honda Civic. Both models have major assembly plants all around North America. If your VIN starts with a 1...it was made in the US. If it starts with a 2...it was made in Canada.

    That message about how a support our troop sticker shouldnt be on any toyota..etc made me laugh. Sorry, that thought just doesnt make any sense to me. It just sounds like you're making them out to be the bad guys.
    I don't usually chime in on these threads but the support the troops thing kind of got me thinking. I am a veteran of both Iraq wars. I love seeing a support the troops sticker just as much as anyone. I really love seeing one on the back of a Hummer or some other gas guzzling hemi powered testiment to self indulgence. If you drive something that gets less than 16 mpg you better darn well support us because like it or not we are just there for the oil. If we all had electric cars the whole middle east would be irrelevant. I believe in buying American as much as possible but If you want to slap a "Support the Troops" sticker on the back of your Prius, Civic or Mini I'll forgive you.

    I will also wager that alot of the people who say buy American cars have houses full of Sony, mitubishi etc. And bikes loaded with Shimano that are made in Taiwan.

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    I, as well do support our troops, although I dont support Bush or Cheney, however, while a Hummer does get horrible gas mileage, what about a Nissan Titan, Toyota Sequioa and about any other SUV, foreign or domestic.
    I drive a SUV, I think they are safer, I do wish that they did get better mileage and some day hope to get to use alternative fuels in a SUV, that also gets better mileage.
    I just cannot see myself driving a Toyota Prius....ever!
    Anyway, a personal thanks from me goes out to you for being a veteran and I hope I did not hurt your feelings.

    Please dont take things so personal, posters, I think everyone has an opinion and this site seems to support that.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    I, as well do support our troops, although I dont support Bush or Cheney, however, while a Hummer does get horrible gas mileage, what about a Nissan Titan, Toyota Sequioa and about any other SUV, foreign or domestic.
    I drive a SUV, I think they are safer, I do wish that they did get better mileage and some day hope to get to use alternative fuels in a SUV, that also gets better mileage.
    I just cannot see myself driving a Toyota Prius....ever!
    Anyway, a personal thanks from me goes out to you for being a veteran and I hope I did not hurt your feelings.

    Please dont take things so personal, posters, I think everyone has an opinion and this site seems to support that.
    No you did not hurt my feelings. You make an interesting point though. Toyota and Nissan both make some gas guzzlers as well. Those vehicles were designed to compete with the large american suv because there is a demand created by the American market. Gmc and Chevy have managed to make full sized trucks that get better mileage than many mid sized trucks like the tacoma which only gets 19mpg. Also many full size suv's performed very poorly in crash tests. GM and Ford have both made vehicles capable of using bio diesel and hybrids. The problem is people just dont care enough to change. It is not so much the environment that makes me hate the gas guzzlers it is the fact that everytime we fill up we are pumping money into the pockets of countries that hate us. I don't mind so much buying a Japanese product because the last time I checked they are on our side. If anyone here thinks any country in the middle east is on our side including the Saudi's you are sorely mistaken.

    All that said I do agree GM and Fords quality has become very good. I had an F150 that never had a single problem in 70,000 miles.

  43. #43
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    All machines break down, and no manufacturer can claim 100% reliability. They're all as reliable as the maintenance as the owner gives them. Unless you drive a KIA which will just blow up for no apparent reason!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Toyotas suck? Heck, my family owned several Toyotas. All of them were well over 200k miles with no real problems, and my family is not really known for taking care of cars. I am, but not the rest.
    .
    This is true of my 85 Toyota pickup, thing has been abused with little/no upkeep, head gasket finally popped at 251 thousand miles, pulled the head off friday night and the cylinders look like those of an engine with half that many miles.

  45. #45
    SCC
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    Ha , ha ,ha your pathetic man! I own a Corolla made in Canada ,one of the largest plants in North America, hated by the CAW because it is non-union. I also own a Honda Element made in Ohio! I as a Canadian and a military family support the troops in Iraq and ours in Afganistan! (what the hell that has to do with cars is beyond me?) I bet your beef is not with the manufacturers but with the non-union employees! By the way I am a union member of the Amalgamated Transit Union(USA and Canada) biggest pain in the A** to deal with! bunch of crooks! A dark day when Toyota becomes No.! its because of Toyota that GM and Ford have pulled up their socks!

    I sure hope you don"t have any Shimano parts on your bike!!!!
    Last edited by SCC; 03-24-2007 at 05:29 PM.

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    All I know is that my 1988 Civic DX hatchback gets better gas mileage then any pontiac or chevy I ever owned. Not to mention they were all lemons. After 5 GMs I decided to try an older honda, and it is godlike. Unstoppable tank of doom. So you know what, screw GM. Screw the american crap. And you know what else? Screw toyota. Buy an old honda and you'll be way better off.

  47. #47
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    Thanks. I think I'll put that in my signature for a while, if you don't mind.
    May the air be filled with tires!

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    Was that sarcasm? I can't tell with text sometimes. Just tryin to help. I just think it's silly that people buy brand new cars that are going to be less reliable then a used one for a lot less. It's all about image. Even with the hybrids. Pure image.

  49. #49
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    No sarcasm. I drive a nice new truck, but what you said is the truth. And you surely won't see me owning a hybrid in the near future.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  50. #50
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    Thought I'd share...

    Long time Toyota fan. Owned 1 pickup, 2 4-runners, currently own an 87 FJ60 Landcruiser that's my pride and Joy.

    Picked up a brand new '03 V8 4-Runner, drove it about 40k miles when the motor blew. Specifically, one of the wrist pins (connects a connecting rod to a piston) broke free of the lower part of a piston (the piston skirt). Amazingly, the motor continued to run with a mild noise for the remaining 1200 mile road trip I was on. When I brought it to the dealer I did not yet know what was wrong. The dealer listened to the noise and had no idea either. It was only after a complete tear down that the extent of the damage was discoverd. At that point Toyota verified my service/oil change history and deemed that adequate care had been provided to the motor and agreed to warranty. At first there was talk of just replacing the whole motor, after all, metal shavings had been circulating through the motor for some 1200 miles! Well, then Toyota went and got cheap. They decided to rebuild the motor but only ordered a new bottom end (block, pistons, rods, crankshaft). After completion, in talking to the mechanic that did the work he candidly described the trial and error style repair where the reassembled and started the motor only to find a bent cam shaft (is anyone here supprised that there was damage other than to the bottom end after 1200 miles of metal circulation?) and replaced that one part.

    So I get my 4-Runner back, very unhappy with the repair. I ask why they choose to proceede this way. The dealer tells me that the regional Toyota rep specifically told them not to replace the motor and only authorized the rebuild of the bottom end and indiviually replace top-end parts. I called Toyota and politely tried to work my way through the system and request additional warranty coverage since my engine warranty was now less than 10K miles from expiring and I had something of a half-rebuilt motor. Through several phone calls I had them admit that no analysis was done of the remaining parts including the heads. That's right, $36k 4-Runner w/blown motor and they didn't even send the heads to a machine shop to have them checked before they re-installed. In any event they tell me no extended warranty and they're not fixing anything else (Toyota Corporate). Well about 2 weeks go by and I've got an oil leak. Rear main seal has gone bad. Strange how a rear main goes out on a brand new bottom end eh? They take my rig back and fix. Couple weeks later the engine starts to smoke at start up. It's burning oil and feels a little low on power. Remember those heads that they admitted were never checked out? Can you say hosed valve train? I'm just sick now, got a hugely expensive vehicle, Toyota is totally dicking me around, to date they've had my truck more than 30 days of service. And, while the dealer seems to be supportive, Toyota Corporate is no help at all. Summer is now nearing, boat pulling and mt bike trips ever couple days. I can't be without my rig every few weeks and while I could have given them the truck back to tear down the engine again, I was not willing to loose another month on this issue.

    So, I trade the 4-Runner. Last modern Toyota for me for a long time.

    I love my Landcruiser but I wouldn't bet my hard earned money on a newer Toyota any time soon

    And you know, there's two sides to every story right? You know what recourse that Toyota offered me as a gesture of good faith? They told me that I could pay to have the motor completely torn back down again with my own money and they'd see if maybe there were any parts that they missed that needed to be replaced!?! I was beside myself.

    Yeah, I'm still a member of the Toyota Landcruiser Association and I love my FJ but Toyota's definitley not the company they once were in my eyes.

  51. #51
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    Pathetic, eh?....
    I guess a guy like you would'nt understand, being Canadian and all. I mean, why would you support the U.S. As with most Canadians, it does'nt seem that they have any problems supporting there own. Most Canadians I know do support Raceface, Norco, Rocky Mountain, DeKerf, Cervelo, Cove,etc., and you know, I think thats great.

    I really do think it is funny that I do see American flags or banners on foreign cars, and I do support the US automakers, seeing how they are the biggest industry in the world, I would hate to lose that, but I guess you don't care... whatever, eh? SO K.M.A.

    BTW, all of my offroad bikes don't have even 1 part with a Shimano name on it, I run SRAM exclusively, my road bikes all run Campy

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    = I run SRAM exclusively, my road bikes all run Campy
    Must feel good to know your stuff is made in Taiwan.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  53. #53
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    Oh welllll

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Must feel good to know your stuff is made in Taiwan.
    At least SRAM is an American company.
    I still support North American companies as much as possible, what you do, is your business or your lost job.

    When I ran Hurricane Components, I made sure all the materials( aluminum, steel, titaninum, carbon fiber and the stainless hardware) were all manufactured in the U.S.
    While I could have had bigger profits( but with less quality), which does'nt seem to be a problem with a ever growing list of suppliers. I felt at the time, and still do, that I would like to help support the American economy any way I could, even if it meant less profits. Can you fault an American citizen for that? How stupid it appears to some of you, I still believe we are the greatest manufacturing nation in the world and think that it is very important for every American citizen to understand that. We should take strides to buy American, I know its hard nowadays, but we can all make a difference if we try.
    Like they say "the job you eliminate by buying foriegn products, may be your own"

    If it bothers any of you about how I feel, sorry, I not trying to hurt any of your fellings.
    .

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    At least SRAM is an American company.
    I still support North American companies as much as possible, what you do, is your business or your lost job.
    .
    Yeah, like Walmart and tech companies that outsource to India?

    Correction; you support companies that outsource to foreign countries.

    My primary professor was a high level person from GM. I have a pretty good idea why US auto companies constantly fail. It goes quite a bit beyond "they just don't make the right products".
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    Well I guess I could support foreign companies that outsource from other foreign countries, but that would'nt make too much sense, would it?
    While I do not like the practice of American companies outsourcing to foreign countries, I would rather support them for being American, but I guess in your eyes,I have it all wrong....screw America!, who cares about America's economic fate, we don't need to keep our jobs here! Is that what you want me or any other supporter of "Buy American" to think and act? NO WAY IN HE11!


    I can't understand why so many of people like you are so against buying domestically.
    If you really look at it, Honda's or Toyota's are no better that Ford's or Chevy's.
    I know that I'll keep buying American cars, as a matter of fact, I have my eye on 07 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited and my wife is looking at the 07 Tahoe.

    As far as your professor is concerned, thats his opinion, but I'll be damned if I ever am seen in a Toyota Echo or a Honda Fit. Are those cars what people really want? are they the right products?
    What the American automakers, especially GM, are producing today, are the tops in the industry, thats my opinion. I believe the big 3 or big 2, no knowing Chrysler's fate yet, are going a make a great comeback. I just wish people like you would have some faith in them.
    example:
    My mother- in- law ownes a Acura MDX ,much to my dismay, now in my opinion, if any person who is in the market for a luxury SUV takes a test drive of, say a Tahoe, then drives the Acura, would have to be out of their mind to buy the Acura. I know this may sound that I'm biased, but for feaures, price, room, ride quality, quietness, fuel mileage and in my opinion overall quality, the Tahoe wins`hand down. The MDX was very un-impressive.

    While I applaud some of the foreign car brands for having some of their models made over here supporting some American workers, I still can't tolerate and refuse to support them because of the fact that 75% + of the cars are manufactured overseas and sent here to be assembled and 90%+ of their profits are sent overseas also.

    So keep doing what your doing, I can't change the world, but if just person takes what I've said to heart, thats a start.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to offend, call you anti-American, or any other name or label.
    I'm just a guy who believe's in America. We we're there before, I think it is time to be there again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, like Walmart and tech companies that outsource to India?

    Correction; you support companies that outsource to foreign countries.

    My primary professor was a high level person from GM. I have a pretty good idea why US auto companies constantly fail. It goes quite a bit beyond "they just don't make the right products".

  56. #56
    SCC
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    come on get your head out of the sand .. you live in a global market..... go ride your made in Taiwan bike..... and by the way you will be happy to know that the biggest single supplier of oil to the USA is Canada not some country in the middle east... that should make you feel better next time you fill up your "American made gas guzzler" now shut of your monitor its probably made in Mexico or China.... go watch your Sony TV..... or some other made in Mexico brand

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    SCC,You really need to lighten up, you sound hostile, what is it? bad job?, your overweight? suck at riding?
    Like I said,DH, I try to buy American as much as possible. Obviously, cant buy everything made in America.If I have the option, I buy American made goods, at the very least, products from American owned companies But I guess I'm an a$$hole for thinking and believing in America.
    Never thought I'd see that day.

    By the way, I ride,
    Ventana, Santa Cruz, Cannondale, Curtlo..... all made in the US
    Last edited by Hurricane Jeff; 04-06-2007 at 12:26 PM. Reason: .

  58. #58
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    Jayem,not that I want to get into a pissing match with you, but it sounds like you do have a sound like you have a problem with my thinking. Like I said previuosly, I would rather buy from American manufactured or at least American owned (Canadian owned as well) than from foreign manufactured or foreign owned companies, is that so bad?
    Unfortunately, I can't buy everything made over here and I do have products made oversea's.....oh well, can't win them all.
    I value and respect your opinion, but, do you think we would be better off with no manufacturing from this country and we had to import everything into this country?
    The U.S.is already the strongest economic country in the World, but just think, what if we relied on less foreign goods and more domestic goods, just think how much stronger we could be.

    Anyway, I pretty much give up on people who think like you, thats not a put down in any way, shape or form, the one thing that I believe most people in this country do support is, that we can have our own opinions.
    Last edited by Hurricane Jeff; 04-06-2007 at 12:28 PM. Reason: .

  59. #59
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    HurricaneJeff wrote: "...a Toyota Echo or a Honda Fit. Are those cars what people really want? are they the right products?"


    Pretty funny--I ask myself those very same questions when I see oversized, inefficient mall-bound SUV's Ego-trucks (not work trucks, but full sized pickups that never have a speck of dust on them) and the like. Vehicles that aren't inefficient because they have to be to do what they're designed to do, but blatantly and purposefully in your face wasteful for the sake of throwing money away. I personally prefer a more efficient design and a quick, quiet, compact car. Easy to park and drive, inexpensive to maintain and fuel. The sort of cars that Honda and Toyota built their reputations on, and the kind of cars they still build very well, current spate of recalls aside.

    So many folks seem to think they need to drive as big a car as they can afford--I say, drive as small a car as you can make do with. My bike hauler is a 2nd hand, front wheel drive 2002 Toyota RAV-4 but I bought it because it's an efficient, compact competent bike hauler, not because it's an import. I say support the companies that make the products that you want, regardless of where they make them. (within reason--I have no wish to see the big 3 fail, but I sure don't like their product priorites, a few notable exceptions aside)

    You also said, I believe, that you drove an SUV because it felt safer. That is at least in part not true, due to rollover and handling issues, but it's also not based on smart design. Anyone can build a battering ram, add weight, add mass, survive a crash by simply overwhelming the other vehicle. That's selfish and poor engineering! It's very possible to build a safe, efficient vehicle--Subaru does it particularly well, just off the top of my head.

    Maybe my depression era grandparents had too much of an impact on my values, but I think America was at it's finest when we were a frugal, practical people, humble, but quietly proud and self reliant. That America is nearly gone as far as I can tell, replaced by instant gratification (which never satisfies) selfish, greedy short-sighted wasteful lifestyles, Hummers, McMansions and all you can eat fried crap sandwiches (sure it tastes awful, and it's bad for you, but look how much you get!) A self entitlement born of the justifiable pride and sense of "we deserve to prosper," handed down after world war 2. We're the same people, the same country, and we can be great again--we just have to take honest assessment of what really matters, and discard the rest.

    Sorry, that doesn't have much to do with cars, does it? I just think the bloated American vehicle is both a symbol and a touchstone of what's gone wrong, and loosening their hold on our national psyche would be an excellent step toward setting things right.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    But I guess I'm an a$$hole for thinking and believing in America.
    Never thought I'd see that day.

    By the way, I ride,
    Ventana, Santa Cruz, Cannondale, Curtlo..... all made in the US
    SC, taiwan, nice.

    Anyway, yes, you are an a$$hole for believing that the way to spawn american ingeniuty and competition is simply by buying american products. I'd say that more often than not, that leads to the opposite effect, stagnation and reliance on "what's worked" in the past. If you don't give someone a reason to compete, they won't.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  61. #61
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    Steve,
    Well said.
    After recently living in Japan for several months, I can now truly understand what you said. Honestly, I may not have entirely agreed with you before then. Adimittedly, I have an oversized behemoth (Dodge, although it's made in Mexico, but Dodge is owned by a foreign company, anyway).

    "By the year 2010, Honda wants to be...a company that all people...from all over the world will want to exist." - Hiroyuki Yoshino, former President & CEO, Honda Motor Co.
    http://corporate.honda.com/environmentology/index.aspx

    That's an admirable goal.

    What is the mission of any of the big three? To stay alive? Seriously.

    Oh, and the comment of "Buy American or you're out of a job" is stupid. I work for a Japanese-owned company, and I have to say that I think we're better taken care of than those who work for American companies in the same industry. And we don't need unions, either.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  62. #62
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    Just pointing something out

    By the way, I ride,
    Ventana, Santa Cruz, Cannondale, Curtlo..... all made in the US


    Only a few of Santa Cruz models are still made in America now.....

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    SCC,You really need to lighten up, you sound hostile, what is it? bad job?, your overweight? suck at riding?
    Like I said,DH, I try to buy American as much as possible. Obviously, cant buy everything made in America.If I have the option, I buy American made goods, at the very least, products from American owned companies But I guess I'm an a$$hole for thinking and believing in America.
    Never thought I'd see that day.

    By the way, I ride,
    Ventana, Santa Cruz, Cannondale, Curtlo..... all made in the US

    No actually none of the above., I only have to work part time, I only weigh 165 lbs (I"M 41) I ride all terrain on the road and the hills. Oh funny thing I have an o2 SL MADE IN THE USA, and a TREK 5000 American company (frame made in Taiwan)and a 97 Rocky mountain Thin Air I bought these bikes not because of where are who they are made by but the fit and the performance . You will never catch me riding a Devinchi!
    Last edited by SCC; 04-09-2007 at 08:32 AM.

  64. #64
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    Has anyone got one of these or comment on the ride/durability? Toyota Land Cruiser.

    I've been really checking out the 2000-2001 years (better full time fwd system) and they seem pretty bulletproof. They are also used in more extreme climates and third world countries/governments than any other SUV. Made in Japan.

    The 14/17 is pretty hard to swallow though.

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    14/17? A 07 Suburban gets 3-4mpg better then that and its bigger vehicles.

  66. #66
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    Had some fun on the way back to work this afternoon. A few guys that work at the Ford dealership next to my house have a Mitsu Lancer and WRX STI, I had fun playing around with em with my WRX....it's pretty interesting to look at the parking lot and see what kind of cars the Ford employees drive...heh.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  67. #67
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    Hey A$$hole..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Had some fun on the way back to work this afternoon. A few guys that work at the Ford dealership next to my house have a Mitsu Lancer and WRX STI, I had fun playing around with em with my WRX....it's pretty interesting to look at the parking lot and see what kind of cars the Ford employees drive...heh.

    Only kidding on the A$$hole part, not that you feel the same though.

    It sounds like some of the mentioned Ford dealership employee's are fans of WRC, driving Evo's and WRX's. Ford does have a kicka$$ Focus, unfortunately, its not sold over here.
    It has a turboed Cosworth engine with 300hp and all wheel drive, very rally inspired, since they do very well in WRC.
    Not to say that the employees would be driving one if they could, but maybe!

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    Only kidding on the A$$hole part, not that you feel the same though.

    It sounds like some of the mentioned Ford dealership employee's are fans of WRC, driving Evo's and WRX's. Ford does have a kicka$$ Focus, unfortunately, its not sold over here.
    It has a turboed Cosworth engine with 300hp and all wheel drive, very rally inspired, since they do very well in WRC.
    Not to say that the employees would be driving one if they could, but maybe!
    Over the years, yep. The escort-based cosworths and such were pretty cool cars, definitely cool stuff. I was just relating to the amount of cars in the employee parking that are not fords, and it's quite a large percentage.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  69. #69
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    The car sales market is such a fickle employment segment of the job market, actually its alot the bicycle company employment. One day your working for one company, the next day another. Who knows if they bought their cars while working elsewhere, but whatever, your not bound by any employers products, at least not legally, I think?.

    On the otherside of the coin, I have a friend whose a ASC certified mechanic for a local Toyota dealership, he drives a Chevy truck. Its kind of like my father in law, who was formerly an airline mechanic for TWA, he would never fly, because he observed how other mechanics where careless while working on planes.

    All in all, its everyone's own choice on what they buy or support, I'm not telling anyone that they're an a$$hole because they don't believe the way I do, I would just like to see a little more support for American made products and American comapanies, thats all. As far as your opinions you expressed in the past, I apprieciate them, every one has they're own idea's and way of thinking(or at least they should).
    I realize, we will never be free of imports and of course, I do have imported products that I use every day, like this Toshiba computer I'm using and probably the oil I put into my car.
    If I can change just one person into thinking about buying American made products, I'd call it a success.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC

    Ford's new Fusion model earned high marks from both Consumer Reports testers and
    ****
    consumers who rated its reliability.


    How can you rate the reliability of a new model?

    You have to have it on the road for years to determine if it is reliable.

    If it doesn't fall apart in the first year, does not make it reliable.

    old dude

  71. #71
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    Dont tell that to Consumer Reports magazine, it seems like they can look into the future and give their opinions. Unfortunately, some people take to heart, in what they say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    BTW, all of my offroad bikes don't have even 1 part with a Shimano name on it, I run SRAM exclusively, my road bikes all run Campy
    Wow. You are quite something else.

    I could not reserve replying.

    Disclaimer: I am in the industry, having worked both as a field rep and most recently as a buyer.

    First of all to this notion of losing jobs to japan, taiwan, korea, etc, etc. What's the unemployment rate in the good 'ol USA? <5%? Man, I thought we were losing all these jobs, had massive unemployment, screwing the american worker... not so. This is simple macroeconomics at work. We are continuously adding high tech, high skill jobs to our economy. The future is in high tech and service industries. Jobs that don't require skill are moving abroad, rightly so as this keeps our economy from stagnating.


    Secondly, there have been many statements made here that really have no validity.

    "GM spends $200 more on an interior than a Toyota". This could simply be a function of run quantities, part usage rates, or simply bad buys. The best manufacturers do more with less so the above statement has no bearing on actual quality of the interior.

    Next, let me give you a little three letter acronym you will all love to know and will hear more and more in the future. LCC "Low Cost Country". If you don't think all manufacturers are sourcing to places like India, Taiwan, China, you are dilusional.

    China will be competitive at some point. They can - and do - make cheap parts. However there is no APQP process conformance, no technical knowledge, and little if any QC of these parts. The best suppliers are setting up shop in China and moving technical personell there to support production. Do you know what kind of package these people are getting?

    We live in a world that is a web. Isolationism, such as what you preach, is the biggest threat to progress in the world. We are all specialists, and must rely on one another to produce the best goods, at the best prices. Do you farm your own crops for your food, or do you spin your own thread for your clothes? No - because you rely on specialists and economies of scale to support your lifestyle.

    Competition should always be welcome. Whenever speaking to customers, and when asked about the competition, I always replied that they made a great vehicle and that we welcome competition in order to continuously improve our product.


    I work for an American Company.

  73. #73
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    I guess the fact that Chrysler is laying off 1400 workers does'nt count.

    I respect your opinion and it sounds like your educated to the matter of economics.
    But is not OK, that 1400+ American's will lose there jobs, mostly because of foreign competition.

    As far as some of your statements you made, I don't know if they were directed at me personally, as I never made those statements you mentioned, like I said, I would like to keep Americans working and making great products. Can I be faulted for that, even if I know how unrealistic it may be?

    I know we live in a capitalist enviroment and competition is a way of life. I can't change that.

    Your statement on "isolationism" scares me though, WTF?
    I think we all should be watching you.

    As far as this post goes, I done with it, I had my turn on top of the soap box. I knew from the onset that I would have some resistance, just did'nt think I would have the hostilities aim at someone who would like to support America, anyway I can.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    I guess the fact that Chrysler is laying off 1400 workers does'nt count.

    I respect your opinion and it sounds like your educated to the matter of economics.
    But is not OK, that 1400+ American's will lose there jobs, mostly because of foreign competition.

    As far as some of your statements you made, I don't know if they were directed at me personally, as I never made those statements you mentioned, like I said, I would like to keep Americans working and making great products. Can I be faulted for that, even if I know how unrealistic it may be?

    I know we live in a capitalist enviroment and competition is a way of life. I can't change that.

    Your statement on "isolationism" scares me though, WTF?
    I think we all should be watching you.

    As far as this post goes, I done with it, I had my turn on top of the soap box. I knew from the onset that I would have some resistance, just did'nt think I would have the hostilities aim at someone who would like to support America, anyway I can.
    Remember, the Job market, like any other market is dynamic. Companies that are no longer competitive in their markets cannot survive and unfortunately some people lose their jobs. What our unemployment rate tells us that there are plenty of opportunities for these people to place themselves into new jobs. Sure they might have to commute, or relocate. This is also a great time for them to acquire new skills - and many do.

    Most of my other comments were a response to some general comments in this thread.

    One day we need to realize that we are all humans, and that if we spent as much time thinking of ways that we could help one another rather than trying to hold eachother back, we might actually be able to do some really good things.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
    I guess the fact that Chrysler is laying off 1400 workers does'nt count.

    I respect your opinion and it sounds like your educated to the matter of economics.
    But is not OK, that 1400+ American's will lose there jobs, mostly because of foreign competition.

    As far as some of your statements you made, I don't know if they were directed at me personally, as I never made those statements you mentioned, like I said, I would like to keep Americans working and making great products. Can I be faulted for that, even if I know how unrealistic it may be?

    I know we live in a capitalist enviroment and competition is a way of life. I can't change that.

    Your statement on "isolationism" scares me though, WTF?
    I think we all should be watching you.

    As far as this post goes, I done with it, I had my turn on top of the soap box. I knew from the onset that I would have some resistance, just did'nt think I would have the hostilities aim at someone who would like to support America, anyway I can.
    It's all part of the cycle, and it HAS to happen. If we continually bail out companies like that, it costs far more in the long run and then one day it all collapses at once. It is REQUIRED, and retrenching is something that just has to happen. If they didn't keep making dumb jeep-like vehicles and others that people don't want, it wouldn't be such a huge issue, but the market changes and so do people. If Chrysler is to survive, they HAVE to change something, they HAVE to lose some people. It's just the way that it works. You're not "supporting" american by artificially keeping these companies alive, you're just driving them further down a road with no positive return, and one day it all goes to hell rather quickly.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  76. #76
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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21324818/

    Although Toyota ranked third in reliability behind only Honda Motor Co and Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd’s Subaru, Consumer Reports also found two Toyota models had “below average” predicted reliability.

    Those two models were the V-6 version of Toyota’s flagship Camry sedan and the four-wheel-drive, V-8 version of its new Tundra pickup truck.

    “Consumer Reports will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design,” the publication said in a statement. ”Previously, new and redesigned models were recommended because of the automaker’s excellent track record.”

    The same study found gains for Ford Motor Co., which landed three models on the magazine’s “most reliable” list.



    This was a pretty good discussion at one point. Toyota slips a little, again. Some improvements to Ford's lineup. Just shows Toyota is not God and American companies still have some catching up to do. I think most of the people here recognize that. Maybe Toyota does get by a little more on their reputation. One things for sure though, Toyota will be working hard to fix it, more so than an American car company would. At least everything I have read about the company tells me so.
    Lots of news lately though (excluding the labor talks/stikes), about especially Chrysler picking up execs from Toyota and other Japanese makers. Perhaps the better news about domestic auto makers will continue and not be 'bought press' as a few here have accused.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

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    Good job for bumping a 5 month old topic.
    Anyways, I don't get how you can test for reliability when cars such as the Ford Fusion have only been out for a few years. What you really need to do is obviously test the car for 10+ years. By then, new cars will have come out anyways.

  78. #78
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    Thank you!
    Anyway reliability isn't just a factor of long term age, but also any age. So what they've discovered is that many of the Toyota Camrys are having transmission problems now.
    Man, it's like Toyota can do no wrong in here.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

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    I see this topic has been dead for a month or two now, but I wanted to comment on the "Toyota can do no wrong" theme I have seen here. I have owned three Toyota pickups and 4Runners, a 1987, 1994 and my current 2000 4Runner. All have been pretty remarkable from a reliability standpoint. However, I absolutely would not buy another one. I frequent Toyota forums and have seen an incredible number of complaints on the newer vehicles that are just unheard of on the slightly older models. It seems that Toyota is cutting corners like GM to become the top seller.

    I don't necessarily think the domestics have any better reliability, so I will likely turn to Subaru for my next vehicle (love our current 2005 Outback XT). I simply don't know what I would do if I had to buy a truck or try and replace my '00 4Runner. Looks like I will be keeping this one for a long time to come.

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    I wouldnt hold off not buying another Toyota just yet. My mom has a 2005 Matrix she bought new in 2004 and has not had any trouble...not even a rattle. My dad bought a 2006 4Runner in August 2006 and also has a clean report.

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