• 11-30-2009
    threebikes
    Has your Toyota tried to kill you yet?
    Eric Weiss was stopped at a busy Long Beach, Calif., intersection last month when he said his 2008 Toyota Tacoma pickup unexpectedly started accelerating, forcing him to stand on the brakes to keep the bucking truck from plowing into oncoming cars.
    Toyota Motor Corp. says the gas pedal design in Weiss' truck and more than 4 million other Toyota and Lexus vehicles makes them vulnerable to being trapped open by floor mats, and recently announced a costly recall to fix the problem.
    But Weiss is convinced his incident wasn't caused by a floor mat. He said he removed the mats in his truck months earlier after his truck suddenly accelerated and rear-ended a BMW.
    “The brakes squealed and the engine roared,” he said of the most recent episode. “I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either.”

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6743567.html
  • 11-30-2009
    pursuiter
    These allegations are nothing new, remember Audi? It's always the driver's fault, they push the gas pedal and brake at the same time. The drivers never understand how to put the car into neutral...My Lexus GS430 has the same issue, the gas and brake pedal are really close for my size 13 stompers, if I'm not careful I can hit both pedals at once.
  • 11-30-2009
    CharacterZero
    Why is this in general discussion?
    Why is this even news worthy? Remember jeep GC have had this "problem," as have audi
  • 11-30-2009
    Uncle Six Pack
    This is like the 4th time I've heard about a stuck throttle in the last couple weeks, including one local kid who ended up dead.

    For the love of God, people, please show your loved ones how to put the friggin thing into NEUTRAL.

    While we are at it, show them how to use a parking brake in case the regular brakes ever fail and don't come back with a few pumps.
  • 11-30-2009
    Shark
    No kidding, too many people too busy sending text messages while driving, otherwise they'd figure out to put it in neutral, turn key off, or use emergency brake.

    It's too bad the manufacturer isn't taking care of this, pretty damn dangerous problem!!!!

    The only 2 work trucks that have never given me issues were made by Ford & Chevy.

    Had a dodge that the steering wheel would lock up randomly....talk about fun while on twisty back roads....sheesh. Dodge dealerships said there was nothing wrong with truck....yah right.
  • 11-30-2009
    selector
    Mine hasn't killed me, but I is gonna kill it... my '01 Taco was a good truck. My '05 Taco has a lot more power, but has been a POS in several areas. Has never left me hanging, but some more than annoying, not easy to fix, issues. :madmax:

    Maybe this gas pedal problem will come into play when I head mine toward the cliff and I won't need to put a block of wood against the pedal before I bail... :yesnod:
  • 11-30-2009
    Fuelish
    Nope, not a problem here .... I drive an 18 year old Celica .... :D
  • 11-30-2009
    JmZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Uncle Six Pack
    This is like the 4th time I've heard about a stuck throttle in the last couple weeks, including one local kid who ended up dead.

    For the love of God, people, please show your loved ones how to put the friggin thing into NEUTRAL.

    While we are at it, show them how to use a parking brake in case the regular brakes ever fail and don't come back with a few pumps.

    My secondhand speculation. From the little bits I've read online (I know armchair engineering at it's worst)... it has been speculated:

    The Lexii that have had issues were difficult or nearly impossible to put into neutral because they were wide open on the throttle. Computer didn't want to let people shift the automatics. (Would be the same for shifting into a lower gear on the manumatics). The ignition was a push button job, and a simple push didn't turn it off. Also read that at WOT the brakes might not be getting the vacuum to do any good after a couple of tries.

    I'll let others who actually have played with this stuff figure out exactly how right or wrong the speculation is. But don't want to <i>just</i> blame the victim.

    JmZ
  • 11-30-2009
    ChromedToast
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JmZ
    My secondhand speculation. From the little bits I've read online (I know armchair engineering at it's worst)... it has been speculated:

    The Lexii that have had issues were difficult or nearly impossible to put into neutral because they were wide open on the throttle. Computer didn't want to let people shift the automatics. (Would be the same for shifting into a lower gear on the manumatics). The ignition was a push button job, and a simple push didn't turn it off. Also read that at WOT the brakes might not be getting the vacuum to do any good after a couple of tries.

    I'll let others who actually have played with this stuff figure out exactly how right or wrong the speculation is. But don't want to <i>just</i> blame the victim.

    JmZ

    With most push button starts you still use the key to turn the car on and off. You still put the key in and turn it to turn the accessories and fuel pump on.
  • 11-30-2009
    One Pivot
    the "problem" was that people are stupid and pack cheap floormats ontop of their oem floormats, which then slide and get stuck under the pedal. the cars have slightly lower than normal pedals which with the correct mats dont cause a problem. toyota/lexus is a stand up company and is creating a solution to people who cant use common sense, and installing shorter pedals and reprogramming a throttle cut when both gas and brake are applied (cars no longer have cable actuated throttles, its all electric).

    so... dont do that. its dangerous. your oem floormat is fine.
  • 11-30-2009
    ksearsor
    shoulda bought a honda:madman:
  • 11-30-2009
    One Pivot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChromedToast
    With most push button starts you still use the key to turn the car on and off. You still put the key in and turn it to turn the accessories and fuel pump on.

    you dont.. thats kinda the whole idea with a push button start. you just push the button and it starts ;)
  • 12-01-2009
    archer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    you dont.. thats kinda the whole idea with a push button start. you just push the button and it starts ;)

    Yep, my bosses works the doors and starter if the key is in his pocket.
  • 12-01-2009
    tussery
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    so... dont do that. its dangerous. your oem floormat is fine.

    And so are aftermarket ones. Just make sure you remove the factory ones, and follow most floor mat instructions and check for any interference between the mat and pedals.
  • 12-01-2009
    pimpbot
    Second that...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pursuiter
    These allegations are nothing new, remember Audi? It's always the driver's fault, they push the gas pedal and brake at the same time. The drivers never understand how to put the car into neutral...My Lexus GS430 has the same issue, the gas and brake pedal are really close for my size 13 stompers, if I'm not careful I can hit both pedals at once.

    Although I think there is something else going on here. Brakes are like 10 times stronger than the engine. If you stand on the brake, there is no way the car's engine is going to pull you forward. This is what happened during the Audi 5000/100/200 issues.

    Maybe I'm wrong about that, but people have selective memory and IQs that are instantly cut in half during a panic. It's just human nature.

    That said, there is probably something in toyota's design that is making things worse, and going shizzy really bad really fast, causing driver panic.

    Another reason I don't drive automatics.

    *edit*

    Interesting point about vacuum assist. I wonder if that is playing into this. Not a big enough Vacuum tank in the brake line? My old Scirocco had a huge vacuum tank on the brake assist. It was like the size of (and kinda looked like) two dozen muffins in a big muffin baking pan
  • 12-01-2009
    pimpbot
    Heh... interesting
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChromedToast
    With most push button starts you still use the key to turn the car on and off. You still put the key in and turn it to turn the accessories and fuel pump on.

    Many new Toyotas have that goofy smart key thing. You don't do anything with it. Just keep it in your pocket.

    Sounds like it needs a hard kill switch.
  • 12-01-2009
    pimpbot
    Heh... interesting
    wups. double post
  • 12-01-2009
    gtluke
    Stop being lazy and drive a stick shift and this won't be an issue.
    Then you'll also understand why you want the brake and gas pedal so close together.
  • 12-01-2009
    AlexJK
    Why are all these people flooring the throttle far enough to get it stuck in the mat? :skep:

    I'm also skeptical about the stuck throttle cable, thats somthing that toyota would have to TRY to screw up...
    Why would the guy remove the mats?
  • 12-01-2009
    bikerboy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ksearsor
    shoulda bought a honda:madman:

    My wife's 07 Civic has bigger issues with the gas pedal. It is packed in there pretty tight with the brake pedal. My size 14's often find there way onto the gas pedal when I am on the brake. Nothing has come of it and I have learned to be more mindful of where my foot is.

    I just got my recall notice on my 2006 Tacoma. I use Husky Liner molded mats which stay exactly where you put them, so never an issue since they go up behind the pedal and could never get caught up. I won't be having my gas pedal trimmed and will wait until they have the new gas pedal available. I think people just aren't hooking their floor mats on the plastic hooks on the floor board. If they did, the mat wouldn't slide up into the pedal. To me, this is just proof that too many people don't have any business driving or maintaining a car. These really are too dangerous and complex machines to be used by everyone.

    Of course, none of these issues would exist if we all rode bicycles!
  • 12-01-2009
    bikerboy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Many new Toyotas have that goofy smart key thing. You don't do anything with it. Just keep it in your pocket.

    Sounds like it needs a hard kill switch.

    That is funny you mention the smart key because in my recall notice, it explains what to do if you need to shut the engine off in an emergency. All you have to do is hold down the start button for 3 seconds. I wonder how easy it is to keep your finger on that button with a face full of air bag?
  • 12-01-2009
    One Pivot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tussery
    And so are aftermarket ones. Just make sure you remove the factory ones, and follow most floor mat instructions and check for any interference between the mat and pedals.

    aftermarket mats dont have carpet hooks and securing holes. theres nothing wrong with factory mats, i dont get why people are so insistent to put weird stuff in there.

    the really heavy plastic ones are too rigid to move, and those tend to be fine. the crappy cheapies stuff under your pedal. it can happen on any car, the specific toyotas just do it easier. my 1991 toyota does it with cheap mats too.

    i work for lexus, ive been all over the mat problem.. which really isnt a problem, but still.
  • 12-01-2009
    pimpbot
    Heh...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gtluke
    Stop being lazy and drive a stick shift and this won't be an issue.
    Then you'll also understand why you want the brake and gas pedal so close together.


    I often use both at the same time. Left foot braking is how you make a front wheel drive car oversteer. Fun stuff. Careful, tho. I once spun my car out on an on ramp trying to get on the freeway going way too fast. Thank goodness that I didn't hit anything.

    Yeah, heel-toe rules.
  • 12-01-2009
    pimpbot
    Yeah, you think...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bikerboy
    That is funny you mention the smart key because in my recall notice, it explains what to do if you need to shut the engine off in an emergency. All you have to do is hold down the start button for 3 seconds. I wonder how easy it is to keep your finger on that button with a face full of air bag?

    ... ma and pa average on their way to the mall with screaming kids in back are going to think to hold a button down for three whole seconds while their car goes careening through the macdonalds drive thru? I think not. A lot can happen in three seconds.

    They should also make it react to panic style TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP!!!!!!!!
  • 12-01-2009
    HarryCallahan
    That family that was killed in San Diego? The driver was a senior officer with the CHP; I don't recall if he was a lieutenant or captain. His wife sitting in the back seat had time to make a 911 call explaining the situation. To me, that speaks of something more complicated than a floor mat stuck under the pedal or driver incompetence.
  • 12-02-2009
    One Pivot
    you're more than welcome and free to read the details of the crash. it was a doubled up aftermarket floor mat stacked on the oem mat, and driver incompetence. it was an ES350 which you can easily toss in neutral.

    hate to bad mouth someone who recently died in a pretty terrible crash.. but the most unfortunate thing about it isnt some "defect" in the car, its that the whole thing, and loss of life, could have been avoided if he didnt stuff a cheap mat in his car, read the large new car tag about how to turn off the car with the button, and knew to toss it in neutral.

    like i said, lots of cars do this. if you double up your mats, toyota or not, you risk getting a stuck throttle.
  • 12-02-2009
    HarryCallahan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    you're more than welcome and free to read the details of the crash. it was a doubled up aftermarket floor mat stacked on the oem mat, and driver incompetence. it was an ES350 which you can easily toss in neutral.

    hate to bad mouth someone who recently died in a pretty terrible crash.. but the most unfortunate thing about it isnt some "defect" in the car, its that the whole thing, and loss of life, could have been avoided if he didnt stuff a cheap mat in his car, read the large new car tag about how to turn off the car with the button, and knew to toss it in neutral.

    like i said, lots of cars do this. if you double up your mats, toyota or not, you risk getting a stuck throttle.

    Pardon me if I don't take your word on this. I'd like to take you up on your offer to read the details. Can you post a link or a pdf of the report? It's frankly hard to believe that a professionally trained driver (which this man was) couldn't kick the mat out, think to shift into neutral, or take some other action to get the car stopped.

    I've got no axe to grind with Toyota. I drive one now, and have owned several. And I can appreciate that if you work on the maintenance side of the company you might have some insights. But that latter fact, and your insistence on using words like incompetence and cheap make you seem less than objective about this.
  • 12-02-2009
    One Pivot
    im not talking about well built aftermarket consumer mats.. ive pulled home made plastic sheets out of cars, and bath towels, carpet samples.. even door mats out of driver sides all stacked ontop of factory mats! thats cheap, and incompetent. toyota/lexus is just the name on my paycheck, im not going to protect them with a bias (if you want to talk about GR engine series failures, i can go on all day ;)).

    i understand people find it unbelievable that a floormat took out the family.. but thats what happened. its so blown out of proportion its hard to buy that its such a simple problem. the 3.5L is a quick, punchy motor with a well geared transmission. it gets scary when you're blasting down the street with nearly 300hp, pedal to the floor. i can understand how someone could panic.

    the warning stickers were installing specifically state not to stack floormats. its the root cause of the condition.

    i dont keep the articles on hand. you can google it as well as i can :)
  • 12-02-2009
    RIS
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    im not talking about well built aftermarket consumer mats.. ive pulled home made plastic sheets out of cars, and bath towels, carpet samples.. even door mats out of driver sides all stacked ontop of factory mats! thats cheap, and incompetent. toyota/lexus is just the name on my paycheck, im not going to protect them with a bias (if you want to talk about GR engine series failures, i can go on all day ;)).

    i understand people find it unbelievable that a floormat took out the family.. but thats what happened. its so blown out of proportion its hard to buy that its such a simple problem. the 3.5L is a quick, punchy motor with a well geared transmission. it gets scary when you're blasting down the street with nearly 300hp, pedal to the floor. i can understand how someone could panic.

    the warning stickers were installing specifically state not to stack floormats. its the root cause of the condition.

    i dont keep the articles on hand. you can google it as well as i can :)

    I have to agree with you completely. I've seen it countless times.
  • 12-02-2009
    HarryCallahan
    One Pivot,

    Thanks for the response. Perhaps I read something into your earlier post that you didn't intend. I had the impression you were referring to some definitive accident report and not googling news articles. I just did, and have to tell you that there seems to be a lot of info out from seemingly solid mainstream sources that does not support your contentions.

    The impression I have from reading a few articles is that even if some of the sudden acceleration incidents can be explained away by pedals stuck in floor mats, that isn't a definitive answer. News sources include the LA Times, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ABC, Reuters...

    Edit / addition: As to the family killed in San Diego, what I could find was a news article saying the preliminary accident report from the sheriff's office indicated the accelerator pedal was stuck in the floor mat. The article didn't indicate whether it was an aftermarket mat. The car was a loaner, so they likely hadn't installed the floor mat, nor would they have been likely to have seem some new car warning sticker. The article in the Wall Street Journal mentions that the "Kill button" is explained deep in the owners manual and must be held down for 3 seconds. At 120 mph, a car would have covered 1/10th of a mile while you are doing this, plus whatever distance it will take to stop from that speed with no vacuum for the brakes.
  • 12-02-2009
    ChromedToast
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    you dont.. thats kinda the whole idea with a push button start. you just push the button and it starts ;)

    That is true with a keyless push start system, which have been around for what, a few years and are available on ~50 models. Start buttons have been around in cars for at least 60 years. ;)

    Sure the vehicles in question have the keyless start, but it seemed the keyless type was being lumped in with the keyed.

    Thought I should add I have a "key" for a keyless push button start and a key for a car with a turn key push start touching in my pocket right now.
  • 12-02-2009
    XSL_WiLL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Although I think there is something else going on here. Brakes are like 10 times stronger than the engine. If you stand on the brake, there is no way the car's engine is going to pull you forward. This is what happened during the Audi 5000/100/200 issues.

    Brakes are not always stronger than an engine. I can brake torque with a low stall and it won't go anywhere, but the brakes aren't going to hold the wheels on my FF with a high stall, it will start rolling. I tried to brake torque a borrowed stock 2.0L Mazda3 to launch in a autocross course. Even power braking, the car started rolling and it tripped the timing lights. And ever heard of brake-stand burnouts in a RWD? I can dump the clutch in a LS1 Camaro and then jump onto the brakes, and it will still burn out... assuming it's not using that weak factory clutch.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I often use both at the same time. Left foot braking is how you make a front wheel drive car oversteer. Fun stuff. Careful, tho. I once spun my car out on an on ramp trying to get on the freeway going way too fast. Thank goodness that I didn't hit anything.

    Yeah, heel-toe rules.

    This is not necessarily true. For one it helps you to reduce time spent moving from between the gas to the brake pedal. You're right, it can help control load transfer and even change the effective brake bias, and using brake in conjunction in throttle (trailing throttle) can cause oversteer, but it does not mean automatic oversteer. You can induce oversteer just fine without using brakes at all. Or you can use your right foot and trail brake into certain corners to induce oversteer.

    Left foot braking can be used in RWD vehicles to help regain rear end traction.

    Too much Initial D for you. Drifting is not always faster. Grip. Mild understeer is still faster than tremendous oversteer that scrubs off all your speed.

    Oh... and a public safety announcement... don't drive like an idiot or race on the streets.
  • 12-03-2009
    pimpbot
    True....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XSL_WiLL
    Brakes are not always stronger than an engine. I can brake torque with a low stall and it won't go anywhere, but the brakes aren't going to hold the wheels on my FF with a high stall, it will start rolling. I tried to brake torque a borrowed stock 2.0L Mazda3 to launch in a autocross course. Even power braking, the car started rolling and it tripped the timing lights. And ever heard of brake-stand burnouts in a RWD? I can dump the clutch in a LS1 Camaro and then jump onto the brakes, and it will still burn out... assuming it's not using that weak factory clutch.



    This is not necessarily true. For one it helps you to reduce time spent moving from between the gas to the brake pedal. You're right, it can help control load transfer and even change the effective brake bias, and using brake in conjunction in throttle (trailing throttle) can cause oversteer, but it does not mean automatic oversteer. You can induce oversteer just fine without using brakes at all. Or you can use your right foot and trail brake into certain corners to induce oversteer.

    Left foot braking can be used in RWD vehicles to help regain rear end traction.

    Too much Initial D for you. Drifting is not always faster. Grip. Mild understeer is still faster than tremendous oversteer that scrubs off all your speed.

    Oh... and a public safety announcement... don't drive like an idiot or race on the streets.


    Understood.... Always used within large margins of safety. That day, I hit a crazy river running across the carousel, and I knew I was pushing too hard for conditions.

    Next car has Quattro!!
  • 12-03-2009
    rallyraid
    No one here mentioned that modern cars are drive by wire. The gas pedal isn't mechanically connected to the throttle in the traditional sense. The gas pedal sends electronic signals to the throttle. Computers are trying to kill us.:eekster:
  • 12-03-2009
    pimpbot
    Srsly....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rallyraid
    No one here mentioned that modern cars are drive by wire. The gas pedal isn't mechanically connected to the throttle in the traditional sense. The gas pedal sends electronic signals to the throttle. Computers are trying to kill us.:eekster:

    I for one do not welcome our robot overlords. What really scares me is Mercedes Benz doing brake by wire. :eekster:
  • 12-03-2009
    ChromedToast
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    Many new Toyotas have that goofy smart key thing. You don't do anything with it. Just keep it in your pocket.

    Sounds like it needs a hard kill switch.


    Possible better idea then a kill switch. If you REALLY need to shut the engine off open the window and throw the key as far as possible? I'll have to try that.
  • 12-03-2009
    fixedforbroke
    ha, i drove my tacoma to school and ran over one of fthose orange barrels because i was trying to get the attention of an attractive girl next to me.... thats the worst thing my tacoma has been there for.
  • 12-03-2009
    GEARHEAD_ENG
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rallyraid
    No one here mentioned that modern cars are drive by wire. The gas pedal isn't mechanically connected to the throttle in the traditional sense. The gas pedal sends electronic signals to the throttle. Computers are trying to kill us.:eekster:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    installing shorter pedals and reprogramming a throttle cut when both gas and brake are applied (cars no longer have cable actuated throttles, its all electric).

    I would almost think that the drive by wire would be more safe/reliable than a cable where a return spring can break or jamb.
  • 12-03-2009
    JohnsD90
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fixedforbroke
    ha, i drove my tacoma to school and ran over one of fthose orange barrels because i was trying to get the attention of an attractive girl next to me.... thats the worst thing my tacoma has been there for.

    HAHA, MY 4runner would be real pissed if i did that to him. Well this is why i like stick, it the throttle is stuck hit the clutch, then proceed to pull over.
  • 12-03-2009
    tussery
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GEARHEAD_ENG
    I would almost think that the drive by wire would be more safe/reliable than a cable where a return spring can break or jamb.

    There are still a lot cars out there that are 20-40 years old still running on their original throttle cable and return spring.
  • 12-03-2009
    rallyraid
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GEARHEAD_ENG
    I would almost think that the drive by wire would be more safe/reliable than a cable where a return spring can break or jamb.

    Drive by wire throttle body:
    Servo motor on throttle body, circuit boards, ECU information processing to close/open through electronic signal.

    Mechanical throttle body:
    Same concept as v-brakes. A torsion spring and steel cable.

    I blame consumer demand and government pressure for electronic driving nannies for drive by wire. This is bad publicity for Toyota, and I can see dishonest drivers taking advantage of this situation by blaming Toyota for rear ending someone through their inattention.
  • 12-03-2009
    bikerboy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    ... ma and pa average on their way to the mall with screaming kids in back are going to think to hold a button down for three whole seconds while their car goes careening through the macdonalds drive thru? I think not. A lot can happen in three seconds.

    They should also make it react to panic style TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP!!!!!!!!

    Exactly.

    The instructions I speak of also say not to tap the button.
  • 12-03-2009
    5H2O
    About a month ago my '07 Tacoma tried to have a rear-end relationship with the car in front of me. Everyone was slowing down in front of me for a red light (luckily I was only doing about 15-20 mph.). I put on my brakes and my truck started bucking like a bronco!
    I kept pumping the brakes and eventually everything righted itself.

    When I got home I immediately checked the floor mat, but the hook keeps it from getting under the gas pedal. My truck is an automatic, but having driven manuals for years, I have a bad habit of using both feet when I'm driving. So I know that my right foot, size 13, wasn't on both the brake and gas at the same time!

    Luckily, It hasn't happened since.
  • 12-03-2009
    AlexJK
    oh oh oh! i forgot about the drive by wire crap! i hate it!!! i'm probably one of the few "younguns" that really hates the newer technology in cars, and REEEEAAALLLLYYY hates the crammed engine compartments.

    ooh... tangent ranting...
  • 12-04-2009
    FireDog46
    read the OP's linked article
    "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

    The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to “exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38 mph and 42 mph,” according to one of the bulletins that was published by Alldata, a vehicle information company.

    The solution provided to dealers was to reprogram the engine control module."

    Toyota has known of problems with its throttle control systems for years.

    How often does anyone use full throttle (pedal to the floor) in normal driving?
    Passing on the highway. Jack Rabbit starts.
    And that's the only way it could get stuck on a floor mat.

    throttle-by-wire / brake-by-wire / kers

    Cars are getting down right dangerous.
  • 12-04-2009
    sxotty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    you're more than welcome and free to read the details of the crash. it was a doubled up aftermarket floor mat stacked on the oem mat, and driver incompetence. it was an ES350 which you can easily toss in neutral.

    hate to bad mouth someone who recently died in a pretty terrible crash.. but the most unfortunate thing about it isnt some "defect" in the car, its that the whole thing, and loss of life, could have been avoided if he didnt stuff a cheap mat in his car, read the large new car tag about how to turn off the car with the button, and knew to toss it in neutral.

    like i said, lots of cars do this. if you double up your mats, toyota or not, you risk getting a stuck throttle.

    :lol:

    Wow and you work for Lexus? Giving them a good name and spouting the party line?

    He did not put the mat in, the dealer did... it was a dealer car.

    edit:

    And BTW "you're more than welcome and free to read the details of the crash" so you don't go on bad mouthing the recently deceased for things they simply did not do. It might make it so you represented yourself and your company better.
  • 12-04-2009
    pimpbot
    Doesn't work
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChromedToast
    Possible better idea then a kill switch. If you REALLY need to shut the engine off open the window and throw the key as far as possible? I'll have to try that.

    I know a guy who was fumbling with a bunch of stuff when getting in his Highlander Hybrid. He set some stuff down on the roof, opened the door, put some stuff in and drove off.

    So he drove to where he was going, got out.... realized his key was on the roof when he left.

    wups!!

    Couldn't start his truck, had to have his wife bring the spare.
  • 12-04-2009
    sxotty
    Hmm I thought I heard they would shut off after like 20s if you threw the key away. That may or may not be how they are supposed to work though :)
  • 12-04-2009
    Kronk
    I have a 2006 Tacoma. The stoplight surge only happens when the A/C or defroster are on. If you have a little more pressure on the pedal once you stop, it counters that surge.
    Seems some have actually revved up more than what I am describing. But RPM jumping as much as it does on mine seems excessive, and would send you forward if you didn't know it was something considered "normal"

    I have not had the surge at anything more than a stop. Never anything (so far) while moving.

    Now that incessant buzz in the dash on the passenger side which can't seemingly be found is another issue.
  • 12-04-2009
    FireDog46
    you gotta hear this
  • 12-04-2009
    FireDog46
    and read this
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/bu...yota.html?_r=1

    from comments section

    Comment #78 Patricia Troy, Los Angeles

    As a followup to my original post #56, I would like to provide readers with more information about legal mess Toyota is currently facing in regards to the Toyota Camry, Prius, Tundra and Tacoma pickups, Avalon sedan and the Lexus sedans.

    In November of this year, two class action lawsuits were filed against Toyota in California. One was filed by Dimitrios Biller, former in house lawyer for Toyota at their American corporate headquarters in Los Angeles. He alleges in his suit that executives and lawyers for Toyota were involved in concealing and destroying evidence, thwarting Biller's attempt to preserve and produce electronically stored data and obstructing justice by not complying with court's orders to produce evidence to plaintiffs who had filed cases against Toyota for catastrophic injury in roll over accidents.

    The second class action lawsuit was filed by McCuneWright LLP, a law firm based in Redlands, California on behalf of all owners of Toyotas and Lexus vehicles that were manufactured since approximately 2001 that are equipped with Toyota's Electronic Throttle Control with Intelligence system. This system has no mechanical failsafe that would allow the driver any control over an engine that goes into hyperacceleration. Previous to 2001, Toyota had a mechanical backup that would kick into effect if the Electronic Throttle Control with Intelligence system malfunctioned. Beginning in approximately 2002, Toyota stopped installation of its mechanical backup system, making their cars controlled entirely by the electronic system.

    After two national class action lawsuits were file earlier this month, Toyota again recalls the same models it recalled earlier to replace floor mats. Now they're going to install shorter accelerator pedals. To me, this is just damage control.

    To give you a sense of the scope of the financial damage Toyota is facing, think of how many tens of millions of cars Toyota and Lexus have sold in the US alone since 2002, the year Toyota first admitted to dealers that there was a problem with sudden acceleration. If a court finds that Toyota knowingly manufactured and sold vehicles that had a problem with sudden acceleration, every owner of those Toyota vehicles (including Lexus sedans) would have to be compensated either monetarily or with a massive recall of their vehicles, regardless of whether or not they had experienced sudden acceleration because the possibility of sudden acceleration exists. Owners would include private individuals, car rental companies, and corporations who bought Toyotas as fleet vehicles.

    On top of that massive figure, add in the money Toyota would have to pay to auto insurance companies to compensate them for the monies they have paid out on claims for Toyotas that needed body repair or complete replacement because of total damage (as happened with my 2002 Toyota Camry that was totaled out) due to sudden acceleration accidents. Then add to that figure the money Toyota would have to pay to insurance companies to compensate them for all medical claims paid out due to injuries sustained from sudden acceleration accidents.

    When I spoke with the claims adjustor from my auto insurance company, she told me that the insurance company is aware there is a problem and is and has been compiling a database on the costs paid out by the company for all Toyota and Lexus accidents that were cause by sudden acceleration. She told me that the insurance company cannot refuse to insure these vehicles because there has been no definitive decision made by the NHTSA or any legal judgement finding Toyota civilly or criminally liable, but that when (and she said when, not if) Toyota is found liable, the legal department of the insurance company will pursue monetary compensation for claims paid. Now start counting the number of auto insurance companies in the US and start multiplying.

    If you can even begin to wrap your head around the financial loss Toyota would face in the US, start adding to that number the costs they would worldwide. Toyota would have to pay out so much money, the company would probably cease to exist.
  • 12-04-2009
    FireDog46
    and see this
    loaner cars don't have floor mats...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjfKrwCTghk
  • 12-04-2009
    Kronk
    Reading the link in the OP's first posting, at the end mentions the 38 to 42 MPH fluctuation. Happens on mine. I figured it was the tire balance or some such and didn't think too much of it.
  • 12-05-2009
    FireDog46
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I know a guy who was fumbling with a bunch of stuff when getting in his Highlander Hybrid. He set some stuff down on the roof, opened the door, put some stuff in and drove off.

    So he drove to where he was going, got out.... realized his key was on the roof when he left.

    wups!!

    Couldn't start his truck, had to have his wife bring the spare.

    How do you turn these cars off?
    You need the fob to start it but not to drive it.

    I know nothing about these new ignition/start systems and hate the sound of them already.
  • 12-05-2009
    tussery
    There is a reason why all race cars with push button starts have a toggle switch for ignition.
  • 12-05-2009
    pimpbot
    Power button...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FireDog46
    How do you turn these cars off?
    You need the fob to start it but not to drive it.

    I know nothing about these new ignition/start systems and hate the sound of them already.

    ... on the dash. You stop, put it in Park, and power off. It's pretty slick, actually.... I mean apart from the running away and killing people part.
  • 12-05-2009
    FireDog46
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    ... on the dash. You stop, put it in Park, and power off. It's pretty slick, actually.... I mean apart from the running away and killing people part.

    The same button that requires pressed-in for 3 seconds to kill the engine when moving.
    Sheesh, who designed the software for the PCMs. Sure wasn't a software designer/developer.
    You program for what you want it to do. Then you program for all the what-ifs.
    I can tell from 35 years of experience. "what you want it do" is the easy part.
    The quality of your software is always measured by how you have handled the "what-ifs".

    I remember my MGB had a simple dashboard key and a push button for the starter.
    Turn the key to on, push and hold the button until the engine fired.
    Turn the key to off and remove it.
    In fifty years I haven't seen anything better.
    Of course, it was pretty easy to hot wire. But then again,
    four hefty biker types could just as easily have tossed it into the back of a pickup truck.

    Toyota's recall reeks of some cover up. Sure you will get a new throttle pedal.
    That's the cover up. The truth is more like a chance to reprogram the throttle PCM.
    That and add a more sophisticated brake/throttle interface. Tap the brake and the
    throttle PCM always drops to neutral. You will never know if the PCM is reprogrammed.
  • 12-05-2009
    FireDog46
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tussery
    There is a reason why all race cars with push button starts have a toggle switch for ignition.

    arm and fire
    disarm, fires out:thumbsup:
  • 12-05-2009
    pimpbot
    The car I'm about to get...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FireDog46
    arm and fire
    disarm, fires out:thumbsup:

    ... is my first drive by wire throttle car. Good thing its a stick with a traditional key ignition lock. My first car with ESP, too. I'm not sure how I feel about a computer applying the brakes and messing with the throttle for me. I dunno... I guess it helps keep you from careening off the road.

    Yeah, the lack of failover and a hard kill switch on Toyotas I think is downright criminal. I smell a fat lawsuit.
  • 12-08-2009
    BuickGN
    I've been researching this for a while and it's looking more and more like a computer issue...

    It uses a DBW throttle.
    It uses a button to start/stop which sends the command to the computer. It doesn't have an actual switch to break the circuit.

    It's looking like it goes into some sort of loop with the throttle wide open and the stop button inoperable.

    For those that think the brakes will hold the car back, not even close. If you're at a dead stop with the gas and brake to the floor, who knows, they may have a chance. However, if you're cruising down the freeway at 70mph and the car goes wide open and say it takes until you're going 85mph to hit the brakes, you're trying to stop a 3,600lb (IS350) car going 85mph and 306hp trying to keep it moving. The brakes will overheat long before the car stops.

    The other thing, the brakes use vacuum assist. There is no vacuum at full throttle. Once the brakes are pumped a couple times, all the vacuum reserve is depleted and you have no assist.

    I have to think that the officer did everything that could've been done since the 911 call was a minute long. I've had the throttle stick on my GN and with it going sideways through traffic and I easily thought to turn the key off.

    Many DBW cars will reduce or completely release the throttle if the brakes and gas are used at the same time but not Toyota/Lexus.

    And FWIW, the DBW is primarily there for emissions. Of course it's easy to play games such as ramping up the throttle quickly to make the car feel faster at part throttle. It also makes traction control much more effective and is used as a soft revlimiter on most cars if it's floored in neutral or park.
  • 12-09-2009
    FireDog46
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BuickGN
    The other thing, the brakes use vacuum assist. There is no vacuum at full throttle. Once the brakes are pumped a couple times, all the vacuum reserve is depleted and you have no assist.

    Remember vacuum driven windshield wipers.
    Foot to the floor and the wipers stopped working.
    Damn dangerous passing on the highway in a rain storm.
  • 12-09-2009
    One Pivot
    removed a bunch more doubled up floormats from more lexuses lately.. rainy season, people think its better to have a clean floormat and a cheap one stuck under the pedal.

    cable operated throttles since.. forever.. will continue to floor the car when stuck.. so pretty much since the beginning of automotive to now, this "problem" has effected every car without an electronic cut, so probably 99% of manufactured cars put into road duty. stuff a towel in the foot well of a 1982 chevy and it can stick the throttle.

    keep it in perspective, no need for a witch hunt.
  • 12-09-2009
    pimpbot
    Dbw....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BuickGN
    I've been researching this for a while and it's looking more and more like a computer issue...

    It uses a DBW throttle.
    It uses a button to start/stop which sends the command to the computer. It doesn't have an actual switch to break the circuit.

    It's looking like it goes into some sort of loop with the throttle wide open and the stop button inoperable.

    For those that think the brakes will hold the car back, not even close. If you're at a dead stop with the gas and brake to the floor, who knows, they may have a chance. However, if you're cruising down the freeway at 70mph and the car goes wide open and say it takes until you're going 85mph to hit the brakes, you're trying to stop a 3,600lb (IS350) car going 85mph and 306hp trying to keep it moving. The brakes will overheat long before the car stops.

    The other thing, the brakes use vacuum assist. There is no vacuum at full throttle. Once the brakes are pumped a couple times, all the vacuum reserve is depleted and you have no assist.

    I have to think that the officer did everything that could've been done since the 911 call was a minute long. I've had the throttle stick on my GN and with it going sideways through traffic and I easily thought to turn the key off.

    Many DBW cars will reduce or completely release the throttle if the brakes and gas are used at the same time but not Toyota/Lexus.

    And FWIW, the DBW is primarily there for emissions. Of course it's easy to play games such as ramping up the throttle quickly to make the car feel faster at part throttle. It also makes traction control much more effective and is used as a soft revlimiter on most cars if it's floored in neutral or park.

    ... is probably there more for the ESP and traction control more than anything. I remember earlier VW cars with traction control controlled throttle using ignition timing, and fuel supply.

    I just picked up my B6 Audi A4 which is DBW. I do miss the throttle cable. DBW feels less responsive to the pedal.
  • 12-09-2009
    pimpbot
    Well, sure...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot
    removed a bunch more doubled up floormats from more lexuses lately.. rainy season, people think its better to have a clean floormat and a cheap one stuck under the pedal.

    cable operated throttles since.. forever.. will continue to floor the car when stuck.. so pretty much since the beginning of automotive to now, this "problem" has effected every car without an electronic cut, so probably 99% of manufactured cars put into road duty. stuff a towel in the foot well of a 1982 chevy and it can stick the throttle.

    keep it in perspective, no need for a witch hunt.

    but don't you think there should be a backup safety system in place? I mean, who's to say that the stepper motor in the throttle doesn't fail, or gets shorted out to go full throttle, causing a runaway condition. Shouldn't there be some sort of provision for the driver to cut the engine instead of:

    1) Take right hand off steering wheel
    2) Lean over to the right with your face close to the airbag
    3) Hold Power button down
    4) One one thousand...
    5) two one thousand...
    6) three one thousand.....

    and possibly an electric brake booster instead of vacuum

    Nah, F' - that. Give me a hard electrical cutoff to the ignition and fuel systems like every other pre-2005 car on the planet.

    This has to go way beyond a stuck floor mat. This is a basic philosophy that big accidents are really caused by many small factors in place making a key event become a crisis. I see this in oil refinery and chemical processing plant accidents all the time. It's not just the guy who tripped and dropped the wrench that caused a spark, it's the tools somebody else left on the floor, the small spill somebody didn't barracade while he walked off for a bottle of cleaning products, the poor lighting, the guy who rolled his Nomex sleeves up, and the H2S detector that somebody forgot to bump test that day that add up to somebody dying.

    Floor mats, kids toy, whatever... there are things that can jam a gas pedal to the floor. It happens. It happened to me, but I managed to clear the obstruction with my foot before anything happened.

    I think the 3 second power button is fully asinine. It strikes of arrogance that their stuff can never fail, so we won't bother to make provisions for failure.
  • 12-09-2009
    FireDog46
    it's called throttle lag
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    ... is probably there more for the ESP and traction control more than anything. I remember earlier VW cars with traction control controlled throttle using ignition timing, and fuel supply.

    I just picked up my B6 Audi A4 which is DBW. I do miss the throttle cable. DBW feels less responsive to the pedal.

    Remember turbo lag.
    Now we have throttle lag.
    Mustang owners b**ch about it all the time.
    BUT
    You can buy after market reprogramming kits for the throttle process control module.
    Apparently it's the first upgrade a mustang purist buys/installs.
  • 12-09-2009
    FireDog46
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I think the 3 second power button is fully asinine. It strikes of arrogance that their stuff can never fail, so we won't bother to make provisions for failure.

    +infinity on that one :thumbsup:
  • 12-09-2009
    BuickGN
    I agree that 3 seconds would feel like an eternity in a run away vehicle.

    I'm very lucky that my TL has virtually no throttle lag. I can hear it respond with induction noise the second my foot hits the pedal, in fact, there is no noticeable throttle lag in this car. I thought others were complaining about nothing in other brands until I drove a Ford DBW for the first time.

    I want a real ignition switch that will kill it regardless of what the computer wants.

    I want an auto shifter that has no "safety" guards and gates to keep it from easily going into neutral. Even the one in my TL, after putting 83,000 miles on it sometimes gets hung up when shifting if I'm not looking at it. IMO, the shifter should be intuitive. You should never have to look at it to see where you're at. In the GN it will easily go anywhere on the shifter from neutral all the way to first. The only lockout I have is for reverse.

    I remember those vacuum operated windshield wipers. I even remember seeing a very old car, I want to say it was an edsel with vacuum roll up windows.
  • 12-10-2009
    pimpbot
    Heh....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FireDog46
    Remember turbo lag.
    Now we have throttle lag.
    Mustang owners b**ch about it all the time.
    BUT
    You can buy after market reprogramming kits for the throttle process control module.
    Apparently it's the first upgrade a mustang purist buys/installs.

    I got both!

    Nah, its not that bad. I just have to get used to it. I drove another 100 miles today to and from work, and to and from a side job. I'm getting used to it.

    The car is chipped so the turbo kicks in earlier than stock, but it still spools up awfully fast the second the engine gets to 2200 rpm.

    This thread needs a good hijack, and a pic.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Tx0iJHxB_GCn-L_sI9JERg?authkey=Gv1sRgCPzpwbOMtMab_AE&feat=embed website"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_zZ7tZYTZu1o/Sx_r3xI560I/AAAAAAAALuY/dMFj051LA6U/s800/audia4.jpg" /></a>
  • 12-10-2009
    adam728
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I got both!

    The car is chipped so the turbo kicks in earlier than stock, but it still spools up awfully fast the second the engine gets to 2200 rpm.

    Ha ha, so does our Passat (the turbo and throttle lag part, doesn't seem to spool real fast till maybe 2800rpm or so, even though VW claims full boot at like 1800).

    When the car was brand new the throttle lag was HORRIBLE. I thought I was going to get killed 100 different times. Go to make a left out of the neighborhood, hit the gas to jump into the one opening you've seen in the 5 minutes you've been sitting there, and the car would just seem to lazily roll foward like you weren't even touching the throttle. 10-15 feet later it'd wake up and you'd go, but that hesitation off the line was bad, and it wasn't turbo lag. Somewhere around the 4-5K mark it completely quit doing that, and now jumping on it like that just lights em up. I'm guessing it was some sort of break-in tune.

    I so want to do an APR tune on the car. :D
  • 12-10-2009
    fsr1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    That family that was killed in San Diego? The driver was a senior officer with the CHP; I don't recall if he was a lieutenant or captain. His wife sitting in the back seat had time to make a 911 call explaining the situation. To me, that speaks of something more complicated than a floor mat stuck under the pedal or driver incompetence.

    The best thing in this thread is that Harry Callahan doesn't think the cop was at fault.:thumbsup: Not making fun, just noticing the irony.

    With regard to the fear/dislike of the electronic throttles. Take note that they are not a new invention. My 94' VW GTI, and all my cars since both foreign, and domestic have had them. They help to solve some conventional throttle limitations. Rev matched downshifts on my Wifes DSG equipped VW are amazing, and Cruise control works better than any vacuum assist system I've ever used.

    :nono: Remember the Firestone/Ford fiasco. It was proven that most of the accidents were caused, or worsened by panicked drivers using too much steering input with a blown tire namely the rear. When they blew tires arbitrarily out in testing it was found that the less steering input the better. Sudden weight transfer on three points is not good. It is of course a given that without tire failure there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
  • 12-10-2009
    pimpbot
    Uh....
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fsr1
    The best thing in this thread is that Harry Callahan doesn't think the cop was at fault.:thumbsup: Not making fun, just noticing the irony.

    With regard to the fear/dislike of the electronic throttles. Take note that they are not a new invention. My 94' VW GTI, and all my cars since both foreign, and domestic have had them. They help to solve some conventional throttle limitations. Rev matched downshifts on my Wifes DSG equipped VW are amazing, and Cruise control works better than any vacuum assist system I've ever used.

    :nono: Remember the Firestone/Ford fiasco. It was proven that most of the accidents were caused, or worsened by panicked drivers using too much steering input with a blown tire namely the rear. When they blew tires arbitrarily out in testing it was found that the less steering input the better. Sudden weight transfer on three points is not good. It is of course a given that without tire failure there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.


    Yeah, the Ford Explorer mess was crazy. Something else that contributed to the fiasco was that Ford reused a rear live axle from another truck that was too narrow for the body. They had one engineer whistleblower who said he was screaming at the top of his lungs about this during the design phase. The narrow rear track coupled with a top heavy truck make it super prone to rolling over. They were also finding that in some cases during emergency maneuvers, the body lean was so great that it put a lot of pressure on one of the rear tires, causing the already defective or under inflated tires to blow out or roll off the rim.

    And whaddya know... after that whole mess, the next generation of the explorer went to an independent rear suspension and the rate of rollover dropped back to normal, and all the while they never admitted there was anything wrong. Granted, there was a problem with the tires de-laminating as well, so its two issues that combined that lead to killing and maiming people. Firestone and Ford just ended up pointing fingers at each other and not accepting any responsibility.

    Remember when 'Jack' was talking about his job as a recall coordinator in Fight Club, and how his job was to apply 'the formula'?

    a) Find the rate of failure
    b) Find the number of vehicles in the field
    c) find the average out of court settlement in a lawsuit.

    a x b x c = X

    If X is greater than the cost of doing the recall... they don't do one.

    Totally true. Dollars before people. It's a sick world.
  • 12-10-2009
    fsr1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    GTis were throttle cable up until 1999.5 MK4 bodies. I had a 1996 GTi and my wife had a 1997 Jetta GLX VR6 (basically a GTi engine in a Jetta body). Both had real live throttle cables.

    Really? Mine was the 1st year VR6 I know I bought it in Dec 94 so it was most likely a 95 model. I was sure it did. Oh well. Anyway I know my 2001GTI GLX did.


    As did my 2007, and my Wife's 2008. I am afflicted with GTI disease. I have owned an 84', an 85', 2- 87' 16v's, and the 4 listed above. Before that an 81' Rabbit S. I need help!

    The wife has had some Chryslers. That lessens my bias.
  • 12-10-2009
    pimpbot
    Do it
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam728
    Ha ha, so does our Passat (the turbo and throttle lag part, doesn't seem to spool real fast till maybe 2800rpm or so, even though VW claims full boot at like 1800).

    When the car was brand new the throttle lag was HORRIBLE. I thought I was going to get killed 100 different times. Go to make a left out of the neighborhood, hit the gas to jump into the one opening you've seen in the 5 minutes you've been sitting there, and the car would just seem to lazily roll foward like you weren't even touching the throttle. 10-15 feet later it'd wake up and you'd go, but that hesitation off the line was bad, and it wasn't turbo lag. Somewhere around the 4-5K mark it completely quit doing that, and now jumping on it like that just lights em up. I'm guessing it was some sort of break-in tune.

    I so want to do an APR tune on the car. :D

    The APR chip is really good. Boosts from 170 hp to 200 -ish, and has better drive ability. All for a pittance of $400. It might hit the turbo harder, so cooling down after driving on the freeway is probably a good idea (probably a good idea without the chip anyway). I got the GIAC chip and it feels good. IIRC, ARP is doing a special right now... like 4 programs plus the program switcher for $400, IIRC. Probably not a good idea to do if you car is under warranty, tho.

    IIRC, Francois the Overlord here at mtbr rocks an APR chip in his Passat.
  • 12-10-2009
    pimpbot
    Heh.. don't get me started
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fsr1
    Really? Mine was the 1st year VR6 I know I bought it in Dec 94 so it was most likely a 95 model. I was sure it did. Oh well. Anyway I know my 2001GTI GLX did.


    As did my 2007, and my Wife's 2008. I am afflicted with GTI disease. I have owned an 84', an 85', 2- 87' 16v's, and the 4 listed above. Before that an 81' Rabbit S. I need help!

    The wife has had some Chryslers. That lessens my bias.

    Yep, the 1997 Jetta it sure did. I remember throttling the engine from under the hood by pulling the cable.

    1980 Rabbit
    1979 Scirocco
    1987 Jetta
    1996 GTi
    1997 Jetta GLX VR6
    and currently....
    1999 Audi A4 Avant quattro - throttle cable
    2002 Audi A4 Sedan quattro - throttle by wire

    see a pattern? :D
    <- Total VAG geek
  • 12-10-2009
    adam728
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    The APR chip is really good. Boosts from 170 hp to 200 -ish, and has better drive ability. All for a pittance of $400. It might hit the turbo harder, so cooling down after driving on the freeway is probably a good idea (probably a good idea without the chip anyway). I got the GIAC chip and it feels good. IIRC, ARP is doing a special right now... like 4 programs plus the program switcher for $400, IIRC.

    Actually stock the 07 2.0 FSI is 200hp / 207 lb-ft. APR's 91 octane tune is supposed to push that to 246hp / 282 lb/ft. If I remember correctly one of the guys on the Vortex site dyno'd stock flywheel numbers at the wheels with the tune and a catback. Not bad, considering I could throw money hand-over-fist at my Jeep and not get those gains.

    Also, on the newer 2.0T there is a system in place to cool the turbo even if you are dumb enough to romp around on it and then shut it right down (still not a great idea). The turbo is water-cooled, and if the temp is too high when you shut the car off it will kick on an auxilary electric pump that continues to push coolant through the turbo. Not like the std turbo timers. Found out about that in high school when we took a friend's grandfathers F350 out for a romp. Got home and couldn't shut it off. We were freaking out for about 5 minutes, then if finally cooled enough that it stopped. We were positive we had broken it and were going to be killed. He laughed at us, a lot.



    And just so this has something to do with the original post, neither my 85 or 89 Toyota pickups tried to kill me, and my mom's 05 still hasn't done her in with ~90K miles on it. They're driving it down from Michigan for Xmas, we'll see how that goes.
  • 12-10-2009
    Melt
    wow another recall for toyota .... not that i should say anything since i drive a ford based truck but at least it isnt an explorer.
  • 12-10-2009
    HarryCallahan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fsr1
    The best thing in this thread is that Harry Callahan doesn't think the cop was at fault.:thumbsup: Not making fun, just noticing the irony.

    .....

    :nono: Remember the Firestone/Ford fiasco. ... It is of course a given that without tire failure there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

    Too funny; Thanks for pointing that out. My handle is a somewhat ironic joke. I stuck up for the guy because I know how well they are trained; I used to cycle near the test track they use for high speed driver training. And back when I was a "long haired, misguided youth", the CHP guys I happened to interact with tended to be much more courteous to me than local cops. I also think Toyota's official position is corporate weasel speak.

    Years back, a friend of mine had a Ford Ranger that would periodically, suddenly rev high for no apparent reason :eekster: ; multiple trips to the dealer never solved the problem. Fortunately, it was a manual transmission, and you could just kick in the clutch, gas it a couple times, and it would rev back down.

    Ford and Firestone also had problems back in the late '60s / early 70s with tire failure. The first generation radials had this bad habit of delaminating.
  • 12-10-2009
    pimpbot
    Oh, you got a 2.0t!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam728
    Actually stock the 07 2.0 FSI is 200hp / 207 lb-ft. APR's 91 octane tune is supposed to push that to 246hp / 282 lb/ft. If I remember correctly one of the guys on the Vortex site dyno'd stock flywheel numbers at the wheels with the tune and a catback. Not bad, considering I could throw money hand-over-fist at my Jeep and not get those gains.

    Also, on the newer 2.0T there is a system in place to cool the turbo even if you are dumb enough to romp around on it and then shut it right down (still not a great idea). The turbo is water-cooled, and if the temp is too high when you shut the car off it will kick on an auxilary electric pump that continues to push coolant through the turbo. Not like the std turbo timers. Found out about that in high school when we took a friend's grandfathers F350 out for a romp. Got home and couldn't shut it off. We were freaking out for about 5 minutes, then if finally cooled enough that it stopped. We were positive we had broken it and were going to be killed. He laughed at us, a lot.



    And just so this has something to do with the original post, neither my 85 or 89 Toyota pickups tried to kill me, and my mom's 05 still hasn't done her in with ~90K miles on it. They're driving it down from Michigan for Xmas, we'll see how that goes.

    I assumed you had the 1.8t. The 1.8t has a water cooled jacket with aux coolant pump as well,but still have the oil coking issues if you shut them off when super hot. I liked the oder Audi 5000/200 method of an electric oil pump. Too bad they don't do that anymore. Its really the oil coking in the lines and bearing that is the problem. Also, the sump on 1.8ts on non-traverse engines was made too small so it could clear the subframe in those cars. 3.7l is not enough to get rid of all that heat.
  • 12-10-2009
    BuickGN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I assumed you had the 1.8t. The 1.8t has a water cooled jacket with aux coolant pump as well,but still have the oil coking issues if you shut them off when super hot. I liked the oder Audi 5000/200 method of an electric oil pump. Too bad they don't do that anymore. Its really the oil coking in the lines and bearing that is the problem. Also, the sump on 1.8ts on non-traverse engines was made too small so it could clear the subframe in those cars. 3.7l is not enough to get rid of all that heat.

    I agree with that. I never had a problem with the old journal bearing non water cooled turbos coking, not ever and I ran 1650 degree EGTs and saw the turbo bright orange a number of times. The key was driving it easy when I got within a couple miles of my destination and a very short (roll the windows up, take off the seatbelt) cool down.

    The water cooled turbos seem to be marginally better but if it's shut off hot, the water boils quickly and you're left dry. I run a water cooled turbo because that's the only version it's offered in but if it weren't for the warranty I wouldn't bother with the additinal water lines.

    Now the way Porsche did it on the 951 is the only way to take advantage of the water cooling. An electric pump to circulate water after the engine is shut off. This is a great way to prevent coking. I later went to a Preluber not so much for startup lube but so that it would continue to circulate oil for a few minutes after the engine shut down as my turbos got more and more expensive, especially with the swtich from journal bearing to ball bearing.
  • 02-04-2010
    pimpbot
    Anybody still thinking it's stuck floor mats?
    I wonder if anybody asked if they feel like the pedal is stuck flat to the floor?

    They are now blaming the gas pedal ->throttle pedal position sensor gear getting gunked up, but I still suspect the software is to blame in some cases. Steve Wozniac had issues when using his cruise control.

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  • 02-04-2010
    pimpbot
    Yep
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BuickGN
    I agree with that. I never had a problem with the old journal bearing non water cooled turbos coking, not ever and I ran 1650 degree EGTs and saw the turbo bright orange a number of times. The key was driving it easy when I got within a couple miles of my destination and a very short (roll the windows up, take off the seatbelt) cool down.

    The water cooled turbos seem to be marginally better but if it's shut off hot, the water boils quickly and you're left dry. I run a water cooled turbo because that's the only version it's offered in but if it weren't for the warranty I wouldn't bother with the additinal water lines.

    Now the way Porsche did it on the 951 is the only way to take advantage of the water cooling. An electric pump to circulate water after the engine is shut off. This is a great way to prevent coking. I later went to a Preluber not so much for startup lube but so that it would continue to circulate oil for a few minutes after the engine shut down as my turbos got more and more expensive, especially with the swtich from journal bearing to ball bearing.

    My '02 Audi has the electric coolant pump and water cooled jacket at the turbo, but I still make it a point to idle it for a few minutes if I just get off the freeway.
  • 02-04-2010
    BuickGN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pimpbot
    My '02 Audi has the electric coolant pump and water cooled jacket at the turbo, but I still make it a point to idle it for a few minutes if I just get off the freeway.

    That's good to know. Out of curiosity, do those turbos seem to last a long time?

    Also, agreed that I believe the Toyota "throttle" issue is a software problem.
  • 02-04-2010
    pimpbot
    The turbos vary a lot in lifespan. There are folks on the message boards who have 180k miles on the original turbos, and some burned them up at 40k miles. I would guess the latter are the street racer boys who run hard and shut it off when red hot.
  • 02-04-2010
    Restoman
    It's funny if you ask me that the general population lacks the driving ability to shift into neutral or turn off the car. I have an 07 Camry. No I do not have the faulty pedal. The floor mat issue was from a Lexus and an owner who put an aftermarket mat over the factory one.
  • 02-05-2010
    HarryCallahan
    This article was in the New York Times today.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/bu.../05recall.html

    The driver, an older woman who avoided freeways, was killed when her Camry accelerated down a residential street and hit a tree.

    I've heard there was another fatal incident recently in Texas, where the floor mats had been removed and were in the trunk of the car.

    Upon reflection, the whole idea that the floor mats were jamming the accelerator pedal seems really dubious. When you brake hard, stuff in the car that isn't fastened down flies forward. It's physics. What do you suppose happens when the car stops abruptly by hitting something at over 100 mph?
  • 02-05-2010
    Blksocks
    Quote:

    “I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either.”
    Then turn it in for a Chevy :thumbsup: