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  1. #1
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    Prophet small dent in chainstay - what to do?

    Hi!

    I just bought a slightly used prophet frame off ebay. The ad said "no dents or dings", but when it arrived I noticed thereīs a small dent running vertically across the swingarm on the right hand side.

    There were no signs of abuse on the packaging and the "handmade in usa" sticker was missing on that side, still the guy claims to not know of this and now ignores my e-mails, but thatīs another story..

    Is this dangerous to ride with? It feels like it doesnīt weaken the swingarm much, and not vertically which is where it will take the abuse. Iīll want to do some drops on it but nothing big.

    A bit disappointed to have bought such a beautiful frame and then discover this..

    What do you recommend me to do?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  2. #2
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    Did you buy it off Ebay? As in did you complete the Ebay check out process, not work something out off Ebay? Did you use Paypal?

    What do you want from the seller, do you want a full refund, partial refund or what?

    You can file a report through Ebay/Paypal and you will get a response, but you have to figure out what direction you want to go.

  3. #3
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    Yes, I bought it off ebay, payed using paypal.

    Iīd rather keep the frame if itīs rideable(which Iīm not sure) but get a substantial/partial refund as the second hand value of a dented frame is close to zero.

    If itīs not rideable Iīd want a new swingarm and if thatīs not possible Iīll have to return it.


    My main question is about the seriousness of the damage though.
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  4. #4
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    It looks pretty bad... How do you know the fame is not misaligned? I would return it...

  5. #5
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    Looks like something big and solid has whacked it..........

    Could be miss-aligned now.....thats not the kinda ding you will get on a trail....

    If you used Paypal....you are emtilted to buyer protection.....http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/problems-ov.html

    If you still have the packaging keep hold of it for evidence..........

    Please post the listing number or details........

  6. #6
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    The ebay item no is 140217401075. And I still have the packaging and original parcel.
    "Condition
    The frame is in good shape- all threads and bearings are working perfectly. The Fox shock is brand new and works as a brand new shock should. The frame has very little wear- a few small scratches, no dents or dings at all. It will definitely shine up nice and be a good looking bike for you.
    "

    So you think I should try to return it?
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  7. #7
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    What if it comes down to words, and he says the accident happened in shipping and I say thatīs not likely since a) there are no marks on the packaging and b) the sticker is missing where it would have been scratched on the dent?

    How does ebay/paypal handle this sort of dispute?
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  8. #8
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    Was it shipped UPS? Then it was insured. If the guy says it wasn't like that when he shipped it then file a claim with UPS. If it was shipped through USPS I hope it was insured, if so file a claim. If not, go directly to Paypal and file a dispute. I have done this before and gotten good results. If the guy wants to do business on Ebay he will have to make it right. Its a simple process and they do most of the work. Good luck.

  9. #9
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    It looks like you can see the ding in the one pic if you look carefully. It's not something you would notice originally, you may want to save those pics in case he deletes the listing or something. I would ask for a partial refund or a full refund, try to work it out with him, if he doesn't respond, file a report with Paypal and Ebay. If he wants to continue using Paypal it's not something he can ignore. I've been through it before as a seller.

  10. #10
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    Why does the guy charge 5% for insurance? That's $30 on a $600 frame, when the insurance probably costs $7-8, really lame.

  11. #11
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    Yea, the dent is definitely noticeable in pics 1 and 4. I would return it for a full refund.

  12. #12
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    Yes, I too can clearly see the dent on ebay pic. This damage was there prior to being shipped. This was a big impact to the frame! Such frame is worth the price of a used shock (I know the ad says it is new but we know how things works on ebay, right?), the frame is worthless.

    This guy sold tons of bike stuff and I can't see how he could miss such a thing. He knowingly sold you a damaged frame and deserves a negative feedback.

    Once you get your refund I hope you have guts to leave negative.

    Go to your LBS and order a new frame with local support and lifetime warranty. Or get a whole bike and sell the parts.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  13. #13
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    Condition
    The frame is in good shape- all threads and bearings are working perfectly. The Fox shock is brand new and works as a brand new shock should. The frame has very little wear- a few small scratches, no dents or dings at all. It will definitely shine up nice and be a good looking bike for you.

    Thats all the evidence you need to return it for a full refund...Plus postage of sending it back......

    He has sold an item not as described.....

    Pics defo show the dings........

  14. #14
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    Get something that you know is 100% flat and straight edged....just long enuff to hold it accros,spanning the ding....

    If there is a big gap either side of the ding the the arm has defo bent outwards and will be miss-alighed.........send it back

    If it s still straight across the arm and just dips where the ding is then its just superficial and hasent stressed the arm......so will be ok.......but still ask for a partial refund

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwackers
    ask for a partial refund


    How do you know that the rest of the frame is OK????
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwackers
    Get something that you know is 100% flat and straight edged....
    and spank the seller with it.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozvena


    How do you know that the rest of the frame is OK????
    True.......somthing substantial has clobbered the frame....its not worth the risk............

  18. #18
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    If you look at the sellers feedback history, you'll see that he's buying full bikes and parting them out. You might actually be able to find the transaction/listing from when he bought the full bike, and it would be pretty damning if that listing disclosed the damage...

    Edit:
    Here's the listing where the seller of the frame bought the whole bike:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150213197621

    "This bike is in Great overall condition usual wear and tear- few scratches and 1little ding on swingarm"
    '15 Cannondale Trigger 27.5 Carbon 2
    '05 Prophet 1000
    '09 F3
    '93 Delta V 700
    '08 F6 Lefty (son's)

  19. #19
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    Good work there jdr01930.............

    Thats sealed it then...........hes knowingly sold you a frame stating "No dents or dings atall"......which it clearly has.....

    and as further proof of this,we have the previouse listing of the bike confirmed by discription and pics......

    Copy and save both listings with the larger pics and save to disc so its safe.......or print it all off

    Now you have all the proff you need..............
    Last edited by qwackers; 04-29-2008 at 12:20 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdr01930
    If you look at the sellers feedback history, you'll see that he's buying full bikes and parting them out. You might actually be able to find the transaction/listing from when he bought the full bike, and it would be pretty damning if that listing disclosed the damage...

    Edit:
    Here's the listing where the seller of the frame bought the whole bike:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150213197621

    "This bike is in Great overall condition usual wear and tear- few scratches and 1little ding on swingarm"
    Good one, nice find. If the OP wants a full refund I think he has everything here to demand one.

  21. #21
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    New internet term: "Jano" (based on the sellers name).
    It means "the sleezy practice of buying a damaged item, then reselling it as undamaged without actually fixing it"

    As in, "The OP of this thread has been Jano'd". (maybe is should be "Janoed"?)
    '15 Cannondale Trigger 27.5 Carbon 2
    '05 Prophet 1000
    '09 F3
    '93 Delta V 700
    '08 F6 Lefty (son's)

  22. #22
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    with this info you would expect that ebay closes such account. Being OP, once I get refund I would do all I could to encourage ebay to close it.

    Ebay user name is: jano499 (Ellicott City, Maryland) = fraud <- I hope google will pick it up down the road.

    I am sure he pays taxes on this dirty businesses. <- I would turn him to IRS on top of that. Gosh I must be in bad mood today.
    Last edited by ozvena; 04-29-2008 at 12:46 PM.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdr01930
    If you look at the sellers feedback history, you'll see that he's buying full bikes and parting them out. You might actually be able to find the transaction/listing from when he bought the full bike, and it would be pretty damning if that listing disclosed the damage...

    Edit:
    Here's the listing where the seller of the frame bought the whole bike:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150213197621

    "This bike is in Great overall condition usual wear and tear- few scratches and 1little ding on swingarm"
    The dent is clearly shown in one of these pictures. and the seller says "1 little ding on swingarm."

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by amillmtb
    The dent is clearly shown in one of these pictures. and the seller says "1 little ding on swingarm."

    He backed up his car with a bike on it to a tree or pole, I have done it too and ended up replacing the fork.

    He probably settled with the buyer (because it is not "1 little ding") making buyer's future sale even sweeter. I just speculate here. LOL!

    If we continue in this path OP should sell it as new, never ridden!
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  25. #25
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    Might be worth e-mailing the original seller to ask him how it was dinged.................
    2002 M Cannondale Jekyll Goodboy 30th Aniversery...#017-300....

  26. #26
    got the dhr...
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    Ok, to the original poster. If it was me, I would bring it to your local Lbs (preferably a cannondale dealer) and have them check it out. see what they say. It could turn out to be fine, and you just have a little blemish. It will also make your bike one of a kind, so that if you for some reason go to a prophet convention, then you'll be sure that you took your bike home. I wouldn't go through the trouble of the whole ebay thing unless your sure it's not ridable, otherwise you'll just be wasting time. But, if it turns out that just the swingarm is not ridable, then I would get a price qoute for a new swingarm, and try and get that amount of money back from the seller. Or, you could make out a deal, an have him give you a few parts you'll need for free. Anyways, hope it works out for you, and Btw, the prophet is a sweet bike.

  27. #27
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    its pretty obvious he sold you a bike in the condition otherwise than stated, and knowingly sold you the bike in "that state", its easy to prove and if you don't feel comfortable with it then raise the red flag

    other than that, if the alignment is straight and don't want to deal with the paperwork, just put a neoprene chainstay slap guard on there and ride on!

  28. #28
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    My take, for what it's worth (hey, we can all be arm chair whatever's trying to guess at what's going on, right?):

    The seller has been buying LOTS of bikes on ebay and parting them back out (that much we know based on his history). He also has good feed back for the most part, and a lot of transactions. I bet the seller did not maliciously/intensionally try to pass off the dented frame as undented. I'm guessing he's so busy buying/dismembering/selling and making tons of $$ that he just got sloppy and is not paying attention.
    If that's the case (or even if it isn't), the seller should really be called out on it and be accountable for his "error". We all screw up once in a while, but we have to be accountable for it too. Otherwise he's just keep on Janoing people.
    '15 Cannondale Trigger 27.5 Carbon 2
    '05 Prophet 1000
    '09 F3
    '93 Delta V 700
    '08 F6 Lefty (son's)

  29. #29
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    Hi guys,

    Thanks for all the detective work. I definitely will process this. I do think showing jano499 the link to this thread will be all I need since it clearly shows he has tried to fool me and commited fraud.

    After saving the info from the listings that is. Even though I do guess ebay has backup of those things saved for a substantial time.

    If you guys ever want to come to Sweden or Norway to go biking, youīre welcome!
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  30. #30
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    Just sent the seller a message :


    "Hi Curtis,

    I have investigated the frame some more, and it is misaligned,dented and worthless.

    Furthermore I have found out that
    1. The dent was there before you sold it, it shows in pictures 1 and 4 on your listing.
    2. You bought this frame as a full bike knowing of the dent since it says in the item description.
    3. You then proceeded to resell the frame as "The frame has very little wear- a few small scratches, no dents or dings at all. It will definitely shine up nice and be a good looking bike for you. "

    The dented bike you bought and then resold as "not dented" :
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150213197621

    This clearly proves that you commited fraud and tried to fool me. I have not yet filed a complaint to Paypal and eBay but I have all the evidence I need.

    More information and discussion on this can be found at http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=407376

    Please respond to this quickly.

    Thanks
    Fredrik"
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  31. #31
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    Good letter Westman.........

    Direct,to the point and factualy outlining the issues.......

    Keep us informed of the progress...............
    2002 M Cannondale Jekyll Goodboy 30th Aniversery...#017-300....

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by westman
    After saving the info from the listings that is. Even though I do guess ebay has backup of those things saved for a substantial time.
    Listings are only available to veiw for 3 months after they finish.....

    if you just "save as"......you are only saving the link to the lsting...after 3 months if you go back to the saved link it wont be avaiable.......

    Always print all the listing off or save the pages and make a hard copy to disc............
    2002 M Cannondale Jekyll Goodboy 30th Aniversery...#017-300....

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by luseboy
    I would bring it to your local Lbs (preferably a cannondale dealer) and have them check it out. see what they say.
    Working in LBS doesn't require special skills, education, character, tools that you can't effort, or cannondale training. You do not even have to ride a bike to work there. They also wouldn't have tools to measure frame alignment.

    Stop day dreaming.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdr01930
    The seller has been buying LOTS of bikes on ebay and parting them back out (that much we know based on his history). He also has good feed back for the most part, and a lot of transactions. I bet the seller did not maliciously/intensionally try to pass off the dented frame as undented. I'm guessing he's so busy buying/dismembering/selling and making tons of $$ that he just got sloppy and is not paying attention.
    If that's the case (or even if it isn't), the seller should really be called out on it and be accountable for his "error". We all screw up once in a while, but we have to be accountable for it too. Otherwise he's just keep on Janoing people.
    The guy is either lacking of good sense or knew the frame was dented. I do not buy your theory that he was busy to notice.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  35. #35
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    westman, since you called it fraud and provided a link to this forum, rightfully though, be prepared for some resistance. Some people do not like to be "put" in such situation.

    Since you paid via paypal you are a winner. Do not wait too long and open a claim with paypal to get things moving ASAP.

    Be ready to ship it back and keep a tracking number.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  36. #36
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    Update?
    2002 M Cannondale Jekyll Goodboy 30th Aniversery...#017-300....

  37. #37
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    Thanks, I could not imagine any way to get a bend/dent like that from riding, even in ultra extreme conditions.

    To the OP, file ASAP with PayPal (Do NOT warn the seller) it takes a month or so but you will win, I sell tons of very expensive camera gear on Ebay and once even though I was 100% honest and provided huge full resolution images of the lens I was selling the buyer was not happy and filed against me. Buyer filed a grievance and the next day I was out $5000 for a month, I instantly offered a full refund but its not like I had a choice

    In my case the buyer admitted to not reading the sale that well and never downloaded the full rez images, he sent it back packed well and we both ended up happy it was done and over, in your case it should be super easy, your seller clearly did not post all the info

    Bottom line PayPal sides with the buyer




    Quote Originally Posted by ozvena
    He backed up his car with a bike on it to a tree or pole, I have done it too and ended up replacing the fork.

    He probably settled with the buyer (because it is not "1 little ding") making buyer's future sale even sweeter. I just speculate here. LOL!

    If we continue in this path OP should sell it as new, never ridden!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwackers
    Update?
    I guess he is in the process and provided the seller with a link to here, so I don't expect updates until all is done.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  39. #39
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    Hi all,

    The answer I got back was simply

    "If you send me back the frame Iīll give you back your money when I receive it". Since I donīt trust the guy Iīm not doing that until he gives me the money back first.. + shipping.

    Anyway Iīm looking into what a new swingarm would cost me and hopefully get a quote on that on monday. Iīll try to cut a deal with the guy.
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  40. #40
    fnar fnar brrraaaaap
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    Congrats on the resolution.

    Why antagonize the problem? just send it back and get a refund. Make sure all correspondents are done though ebay so trackable and covered by paypal.

    Seriously- you win- leave it be - accept refund and move on.

    And some advice- maybe next time- email the seller and work out a solution rather than flaming him on a forum?

    People do make mistakes sometimes

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by westman
    Hi all,

    The answer I got back was simply

    "If you send me back the frame Iīll give you back your money when I receive it". Since I donīt trust the guy Iīm not doing that until he gives me the money back first.. + shipping.

    Anyway Iīm looking into what a new swingarm would cost me and hopefully get a quote on that on monday. Iīll try to cut a deal with the guy.
    You can't expect more than than that. Simply open a Paypal/eBay dispute and send the frame back for the refund. The dispute process asks you to return the item and enter the tracking number for proof that it was sent.

  42. #42
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    OP, read the last two posts and do as it says. That is how it really works. Forget the return shipping charges if you get any resistance. Ask for it again once you have a full refund in your paypal account.

    I would not replace just the swing arm, the reasons were mentioned many times.

    I think one of your problem is that you want to ride with no delays. That is a dangerous love. Again you do not know what else is wrong with the frame. If you want to keep it send it to the manufacturer. They have jigs and can check it out. IMO stop fooling with the frame.

    ilostmypassword, I see nothing wrong with OP asking for an advise here.
    What do I know, ask the "experts"!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by westman
    Hi all,

    The answer I got back was simply

    "If you send me back the frame Iīll give you back your money when I receive it". Since I donīt trust the guy Iīm not doing that until he gives me the money back first.. + shipping.

    Anyway Iīm looking into what a new swingarm would cost me and hopefully get a quote on that on monday. Iīll try to cut a deal with the guy.

    There is no way you can expect the guy to refund your $, then you ship it out. It just doesn't work like that. He'll refund your $ once he gets it, just like very other business.

  44. #44
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    Allright, fair enough. I just want it to go through ebay/paypal and not ordinary emails as I donīt feel I can trust this guy anymore, no offence intended.

    As about talking about it here, my purpose was to get advice as Iīve never had these problems before, not to flame him. I think others did the flaming good enough..

    Does this mean that he wonīt refund my original shipping charges for US-sweden as well? That kind of sucks, because then I loose 80 USD + return shipping which is probably more.
    Swedish trail/AM/Enduro/DH-rider - Currently rides Spitfire V2 & Devinci Wilson SL. Spending the summer 2013 in Whistler, BC.

  45. #45
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    Unfortunately unless he voluntarilary refunds your shipping eBay/Paypal won't make him do it.

  46. #46
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    Send it back...get the refund inc what you payed to have him ship it to you...so you have a FULL refund.....

    Then ask about if he will refunf the cost of you having to ship it back to him...after all ..why should you be out of pocket for his mistake......

    I did this a few weeks ago....i sent them an email thanking them for the refund,and included.......Id be obliiged if you could return my shipping cost....upon recept i shall leave feedback.......all sorted......
    2002 M Cannondale Jekyll Goodboy 30th Aniversery...#017-300....

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