Hey Cannondale, bring back the boot!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Hey Cannondale, bring back the boot!

    Let me start by saying, TL/DR, the Hybrids suck for average riders who don't care to do regular scheduled upkeep, hey Cannondale, give them an option to not have to do so.

    I doubt this will get anywhere, but it has to be said.

    The Hybrid *experiment* is cool, and the SuperMax in particular, is a fantastic piece of engineering.

    But.

    Putting aside the fact that Cannondale has seen fit to force the servicing of their forks, to inside the factory tech room by not allowing parts for the telescopes to be released to outside service centers?

    These forks are creating massive headaches for everyone, save the vocal few who whined that the boot looked dated. WTF? Really?

    Cannondale is giving away lower fork legs like candy at a parade, due to rapid onset of wear, and commensurate massive oil loss. This has to come at a price to their bottom line, Asian sourced parts or not.

    Riders are losing out on a month + of ride time, to get forks serviced, and legs replaced.

    Shops and service centers are having to haul a lot of water for Cannondale now, apologizing for products failing way too soon, considering cost of admission. Also, prior experiences lead to expectations of that previous level of durability continuing, which it's not.

    Cannondale has done a piss poor job of grabbing every dealer by the throat, and loudly force feeding them this information. You must, as a dealer, fully and completely educate, every single Hybrid customer about their new fork, and it's special needs. They need to know that the oil bath must be cleaned out, and topped off, with incredible regularity to prevent massive damage. They, the dealers, need the tools, and knowledge, to be able to do this as well, and, work with their customers to ensure this gets done. If not, they are just making a fork that everyone will hate sooner or later, and all blame will fall on the maker. I don't think that was Cannondales plan.....

    I get, that as a company in this modern age, if your products last too long, your customers do't come and buy new from you as often, and perhaps that's what this is all about, I don't know.

    What I do know, is there's a simple solution.

    Racer boy types, they love new tech. So take your hybrids, and put them on the racer boy stuff. Carbon XLR Hybrids for all Scalpels and high end hardtails.

    All the other bikes? You guys already have the technology, you already have been making the parts for close to two decades.

    How about the "Lefty Classic"?

    Let's face it. The average weekend warrior, couple day a week type riders are not maintenance freaks. They simply are not going to follow a rigid schedule, if lucky, the fork might see annual, or biannual service, if the rider is on the ball, and has a place they work with that works for them.

    I personally see booted Leftys that are still working, albeit, not great, after 10 years of use without ever seeing service. Damn. A two year old hybrid, with moderate use, and no bath work done? Dead fork.

    These riders are not being well served by a fork that requires them to pay attention to it.

    Nor would Cannondale be negatively impacted by providing a fork to that group, that worked for them, and how they ride and live.

    Right now, you have these folks, buying the brand they love, and getting a fork that pisses them off. How long till they move elsewhere?

    We don't need carbon, we don't need XLR (though a good shop knows that's an upgrade option if someone really wants it). Just a good, simple, PBR type damper, in an alloy chassis, with a boot. No oil bath to leak, no lower leg seal to fail, no 4 times a summer open up, drain, flush, refill.

    These types of riders (say, 80+% of your market) will thank you, a lot.

    Bring back the boot!!!!!!!!!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  2. #2
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    Hey Cannondale, bring back the boot!

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Let me start by saying, TL/DR, the Hybrids suck for average riders who don't care to do regular scheduled upkeep, hey Cannondale, give them an option to not have to do so.

    I doubt this will get anywhere, but it has to be said.

    The Hybrid *experiment* is cool, and the SuperMax in particular, is a fantastic piece of engineering.

    But.

    Putting aside the fact that Cannondale has seen fit to force the servicing of their forks, to inside the factory tech room by not allowing parts for the telescopes to be released to outside service centers?

    These forks are creating massive headaches for everyone, save the vocal few who whined that the boot looked dated. WTF? Really?

    Cannondale is giving away lower fork legs like candy at a parade, due to rapid onset of wear, and commensurate massive oil loss. This has to come at a price to their bottom line, Asian sourced parts or not.

    Riders are losing out on a month + of ride time, to get forks serviced, and legs replaced.

    Shops and service centers are having to haul a lot of water for Cannondale now, apologizing for products failing way too soon, considering cost of admission. Also, prior experiences lead to expectations of that previous level of durability continuing, which it's not.

    Cannondale has done a piss poor job of grabbing every dealer by the throat, and loudly force feeding them this information. You must, as a dealer, fully and completely educate, every single Hybrid customer about their new fork, and it's special needs. They need to know that the oil bath must be cleaned out, and topped off, with incredible regularity to prevent massive damage. They, the dealers, need the tools, and knowledge, to be able to do this as well, and, work with their customers to ensure this gets done. If not, they are just making a fork that everyone will hate sooner or later, and all blame will fall on the maker. I don't think that was Cannondales plan.....

    I get, that as a company in this modern age, if your products last too long, your customers do't come and buy new from you as often, and perhaps that's what this is all about, I don't know.

    What I do know, is there's a simple solution.

    Racer boy types, they love new tech. So take your hybrids, and put them on the racer boy stuff. Carbon XLR Hybrids for all Scalpels and high end hardtails.

    All the other bikes? You guys already have the technology, you already have been making the parts for close to two decades.

    How about the "Lefty Classic"?

    Let's face it. The average weekend warrior, couple day a week type riders are not maintenance freaks. They simply are not going to follow a rigid schedule, if lucky, the fork might see annual, or biannual service, if the rider is on the ball, and has a place they work with that works for them.

    I personally see booted Leftys that are still working, albeit, not great, after 10 years of use without ever seeing service. Damn. A two year old hybrid, with moderate use, and no bath work done? Dead fork.

    These riders are not being well served by a fork that requires them to pay attention to it.

    Nor would Cannondale be negatively impacted by providing a fork to that group, that worked for them, and how they ride and live.

    Right now, you have these folks, buying the brand they love, and getting a fork that pisses them off. How long till they move elsewhere?

    We don't need carbon, we don't need XLR (though a good shop knows that's an upgrade option if someone really wants it). Just a good, simple, PBR type damper, in an alloy chassis, with a boot. No oil bath to leak, no lower leg seal to fail, no 4 times a summer open up, drain, flush, refill.

    These types of riders (say, 80+% of your market) will thank you, a lot.

    Bring back the boot!!!!!!!!!
    Very well said. Plus, upside down design and wiper seals is bad ju-ju anyways. Replacing half of the needle bearings and increase friction all for the sake of looking "modern" and loosing the boot is dumb. I love my booted lefty, going strong for almost ten years now.....reminds me to send the chassis to you for some new needle bearings and races after the season is over....
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  3. #3
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    Now I know why it took so damn long to get my fork back when my shop sent it in. I thankfully do not have one of the Hybrid forks, but service took so long do to them working on those. I was also told there is just one tech working on all of these forks when sent back to Cannondale. I do know when I am due for service again I am sending it to you Mendon!!
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  4. #4
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    They had a tech scarcity a while back, that's all good now.

    Those guys do great work. This isn't in any way and "attack" on their services, or their products.

    Simply, they had a great, durable product, and they did away with it, in favor of a far more fragile, high maintenance model.

    Kinda like having an awesome wife for 25 years, and dumping her for a 20 year old with a bad shopping habit and a *regular* status at the local singles bar......

    I get it, high tech equals increased work. But this is like the carbon crank craze. I spoke with FSA several years ago about a customers, outside the warranty, carbon crank with a loose pedal insert.

    FSA knows the struggle is real. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that it was a huge hassle to have the industry rush to put F1 level tech, on bikes ridden like Chevys. He compared it to having a race car to get the groceries with....

    Folks get awful cranky (pardon the pun) when their two year old crank fails on their $2000 bike, and it costs them $700 to replace it.

    Had brand X just gone with an alloy crank, the conversation never would have happened.

    Ditto here.

    Use the durable, proven reliable option on all your bread and butter bikes fer cryin' out loud!

    Love the lefty, not saying put a Reba on.

    There's just no need that a Dad from Tulsa who does 20 miles, two weekends a month, maybe a night ride once a week, and one, 24 hour race at the end of the summer, to be hauling their fork into the dealer twice a season just to avoid massive damage.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  5. #5
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    So is there a how to for cleaning out and topping off the oil bath? I will do as need but need to know what tools and how to.

    Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx138 View Post
    So is there a how to for cleaning out and topping off the oil bath? I will do as need but need to know what tools and how to.

    Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
    Check your manual, or talk to your dealer.

    There may be DIY video stuff out there, but, like anything on line, user assumes responsibility to determine if the info is accurate.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  7. #7
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    So glad I have the "old" boot-style 2012 and 2013 PBR/XLR respectively, going strong on my Flash and wife's Scalpel.
    no issue what-so-ever. Lefty reset takes 5 minutes... easy as 1-2-3
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  8. #8
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    I kinda agree.

    I suspect they didn't consciously design in the unreliability and maintenance headaches. they didn't shoot for 'the future' over durability. I reckon they shot for 'better than booted' across the board.

    And they messed it up.

    I think we are more likely to see a heavily revised 2.0 and supermax before we see a return to grease and Boots.

    In the meantime they would do well to fit alternate shocks to all but the most racy bikes - whether that's old-school Leftys or Rebas / Revs / 32s.

  9. #9
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howards View Post
    I kinda agree.
    You're likely correct. It'll be, hey, we screwed the pooch, let's spend a sh*t ton of time, money, etc on R+D, testing, etc, so we can say we're on top of the issue, rather than simply continue to manufacture something proven.

    Doing otherwise would be akin to admitting it's bad design, marketing, and execution.

    They keep talking about increased durability, but I ain't seein' it.....

    Let the racers with pit crews and sponsorships run the finicky crap.

    Cannondale used to have a few folks trolling the waters here, I'm guessing not so much anymore.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    What I do know, is there's a simple solution.
    Honestly, that solution is a Pike or a 34. I still ride a Cannondale, but the headache of servicing a Lefty sent me back to the traditional fork route. I honestly don't regret it at all.

  11. #11
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    All of this makes for interesting reading, especially considering the fact that I've got my heart set on one of the top Scalpel-Si models.

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  12. #12
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Flucod, none taken.

    I don't sell the brand, bike wise, I do sell the forks, and of course, keep them running for many folks.

    If I was selling bikes? I totally get where you're coming from.

    Much like the Moto debacle, they put all their eggs in the Cdale motor being on every unit, and while truly forward thinking, and a wow inducing design, they were plagued with issues, all models top to bottom.

    Had they stuck a functional aftermarket motor on all the workaday models, and left the hot factory unit for the skunk works model(s), far fewer problems, more happy customers, and the high end folks know their buying cutting edge, so as long as it gets fixed sooner or later, they'll still be happy.

    The parallels are uncanny now that I say it.

    As for the forks themselves, they are nice forks. I've not seen the *2 ride puke* myself, and I ride several, and speak with many other users as well. They are just forks that cannot be ignored and run hard, as they were in the past to a large extent.

    Ah well, took the dogs for a walk in the fields behind my house, I have a beer now (and a growler screaming to be emptied), life is good.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hey Cannondale, bring back the boot!-unnamed-6.jpg  

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    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  13. #13
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Thanks, iPhone and good lighting...
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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    Pike on an F-Si would be interesting

    But yea I get the point.

  15. #15
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    All forks need work, I don't get the whole concept of it not needing seals, oil and maintenance as soon as it doesn't say Cannondale on it.

    Plus, try finding parts for your 5 year old Fox or RS, things honestly start to get pretty dicey after like, year 2.

    The whole industry's hopped on the designed obsolescence bandwagon.

    Besides, my primary point is, they had a design, that took less upkeep, and exchanged that now for one that requires more, and it seems that customers are not getting that message. So something ought to change, as it will benefit everyone. They eat less crow, give away less in replacement parts, and their core customer base has a fork that works for the way they ride and live.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  16. #16
    Workin for the weekend!
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    Das Boot!
    Name:  LB0825_beerro_08-25-06_0R1PBQ7.jpg
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    Todd :thumbsup:

  17. #17
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Got a good story about a buddy who broke one of those at a local German restaurant.

    It was later calculated that he drank slightly over 2.5 gallons of beer between 4 and 10 PM that night.

    Ouch.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  18. #18
    Workin for the weekend!
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    Any Das Boot story is a good story, no matter what the ending...
    Todd :thumbsup:

  19. #19
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    IIRC, he's holding it wrong, I believe toe down, you get less splash back....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Check your manual, or talk to your dealer.

    There may be DIY video stuff out there, but, like anything on line, user assumes responsibility to determine if the info is accurate.....
    I have two Lefties, one Hybrid on a 2013 Scalpel and a Supermax on a 2013 Trigger 29. Checked the manual. In the maintenance schedule section both say "Telescope Lubrication" every 100 hours by the dealer.

    Just for clarification, is this what you mean by cleaning out and topping the oil bath? I can't find anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvajko View Post
    In the maintenance schedule section both say "Telescope Lubrication" every 100 hours by the dealer.

    Just for clarification, is this what you mean by cleaning out and topping the oil bath? I can't find anything else.
    I believe so. Check out the 100 hour service video.

  22. #22
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    Craig, my Lefty Max 140 PBR conversion that you did is still going strong. The original 2005 body is solid. I agree 100% with your outlook on this. As an experiment, I emailed Cannondale Technical support to ask about the reported reliability issue. That was over a week ago. NO response.

    Sad for them to fall down because they tripped over a stout and proven design.
    My name is Chris and I ride a Ripmo now.

  23. #23
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Thanks for chiming in.

    I doubt this will have any impact whatsoever, but this is what this thread is about.

    Keep punting it back to the top of the page, and let as many eyes as possible, view it.

    I've gotten a number of emails from folks with comments, questions, etc, due to this, and all have been supportive of the two "model" platform.

    The new ones are great, you shouldn't avoid them, but if your riding style, wrenching abilities, and shop proximity make them difficult to own and maintain properly, this shouldn't stop you from being able to ride one of the best fork designs out there.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  24. #24
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    Craig, thanks for posting this and I think you are spot on. My 2012 Lefty XLR was my first Lefty and was replaced under warranty during the OPI recall and replaced with a Lefty Hybrid. They provided no manual with the new fork and the dealer told me to use the same maintenance schedule as the XLR. Well, after 4 months or so of sporadic riding, the wave washer broke, and the oil leaked, and I just hung up the bike and started riding my other with a good old fashioned Reba that costs me about $20 per year in parts to service. It's a reliable fork. The Lefty has proven for me to be completely unreliable, and high maintenance. As soon as I get my current Lefty fixed, it will be sold and I'll be done with Cannondale. I've given them over four years, and I'd say my Lefty's have been off for service almost as much as they've been available for riding. To not be able to have the Lefty serviced and fixed locally is insane and is an incredibly poor business model. It's all just really disappointing.
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    I had a phone conversation with someone involved with euro CDale warranty a while back. He told me that they changed to the hybrid because users just wouldn’t do the maintenance and the hybrids should run twice as long without a service. I have no idea if that’s true but from my perspective, pulling the boot down and running some grease into the bearings was about as simple as it gets. With the move to hybrids it seems like we lost a bit of the unique lefty qualities, perhaps (very low stiction and consequently very good small bump performance) and now have what amounts to a 50% lefty (50% needle rollers and 50% bushing just like on every other fork)

    Also, as Eliflap posted, we’ve gone from 1400g (even lighter on some of the older models) to 1800g! 400g is a flipping TON on a lightweight XC race bike!

    I think I did read something about the hybrid’s new damper being better - is it actually any better? Is the fork noticeably stiffer?

    edit: rant reduction
    Last edited by jimification; 07-25-2016 at 02:09 PM.

  26. #26
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    I often wondered about this new design with no boot. I have three old Lefties (a Jake and two 140 Max), and one new one on a 29er. The stiction on the new "bootless" design is very noticeable to me, and I never had a problem with the boot.

    This whole "send it in for service" and make it non-user serviceable bothers me. Does Cannondale have a Lefty loaner program so I can keep riding my bike while I wait several weeks for a Lefty rebuild?

    Honestly, I bought a carbon Jekyll in the end of May and I specifically requested it come with the Pike instead of the Lefty. I didn't really see an advantage with the Lefty.

    Andy B.
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  27. #27
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Just to clarify, the Leftys were never intended to be end user serviceable. So that didn't really change, other than your local dealer, were they able to previously, rebuild the telescope, now, they cannot either.

    They do offer advantages over dual sliders, but those have been covered ad nauseam elsewhere, so I won't bother to go into that here....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  28. #28
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    Good conversation and kudos for not turning this into a pros/cons of lefty vs dial stanchion forks. I had an old 140 lefty max but moved on versus converting to PBR for a few reasons. I do miss how the total package with my Prophet looked...

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  29. #29
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    Craig - I came across this thread as I we still have our 2005-2008 lefties going in our stable (all serviced by you of course). I went to the dark side this year as my new Pivot has a 34 on it.....and my wife also has a 429 on order, but she is still riding her Rush now and our 3 lefties are still going strong.

    Sad to hear about this latest generation, seems like tech for the sake of tech. And I for one agree with the thought process of the ave Joe trail rider wants a reliable sports car, not a finiky Ferrari
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  30. #30
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    Just got my first Lefty (an '06 Max 140 FFD) and the small bump compliance over my Pike fork is mega, stiffness is also mega to the point of actually feeling hard on my wrists.
    Given the whole original Lefty idea shuns the concept of looking 'normal' to create a better engineering platform. The idea of compromising the engineering platform (introducing a stiction element and greater fallibility) to placate peoples need for better looks (no boot) seems a real shame. I for one love barrelling down rock and crud strewn trails in a British summer and not worrying about nicks in my stanchions and water ingress past often sketchy seals.
    The cynic in me says the money's in the treatment not the cure :S

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    If they nailed the air spring and service intervals with the 2.0 then I reckon it's a better platform for UK / Global riding than booted lefty which dies when it gets very wet and the user hasn't checked their boots for cuts or serviced the air filter...

  32. #32
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    ^Not really, and politely, I beg to differ.^

    Anything that is harsh enough to put a tear in your boot (crash on a rock, whacking it on a truck tail gate, etc), will equally damage the lower leg, rendering it a leaky leg, and yeah, back to square one.

    If you own a bike, and can't be bothered with the most basic upkeep, and product knowledge, buy a sticky, cheap dual slider, ride, ruin, replace....

    The same rider who ruins a booted Lefty, will ruin a Hybrid, I see it all the time.

    Thing is, the booted is cheaper and more easily fixed when damaged. Many shops can and still do, do the work.

    By making it factory only, they make it an expensive uphill struggle to get a damaged fork, repaired.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  33. #33
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    I wish my shop could do fixes on the booted one or I wouldn't be waiting on the clown from Cannondale to fix my fork again. I am really frustrated with having to send it back to them since they did something wrong during the initial service. I love the fork, but i hate the service center at Cannondale.
    '18 Scalpel Si Carbon 2 Eagle
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    Different perspectives I suppose - I look after my kit, and my Booted experience in wet UK conditions always involved post ride boot and filter checks, making sure no moisture got in + re-grease. Regardless of any spills. I could find some - albeit probably not catastrophic - moisture in the telescope after a hard days ride with a as-new condition boot. In grim weather, obvs.

    The dream of 2.0 is that these days are over. It's a sealed unit. But I get you, it is still a dream at the moment, - and even if they solve the air spring problem and we get the service interval we've been sold..mash up that lower leg you are going to have expensive problems, like with any traditional USD fork.
    Last edited by Howards; 07-31-2016 at 12:28 PM.

  35. #35
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    I saw that Cannondale released an update to the Solo Air assembly that replaced the wave spring with a coil spring. The write up on the website says that it significantly increases the length of the service intervals.

    Can anyone comment on that? Does this make the Hybrid and 2.0 more reliable?

  36. #36
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    That's not new, and sadly, also further illuminates the ongoing saga of having your stuff made overseas.

    It was released in January, to much hoopla.

    Within weeks, it was apparent that it too, had issues. All previous pistons, you used grease on the seals, plugged the damper in, and it ran till the wave washer stopped.

    Worth noting at this point, that the original versions of the SA piston, were by far the most durable, and simple. These were back when it was still a US based company.

    Yes, several versions were made over the years, to improve things in some capacity, but, they soldiered on, pretty flawlessly. Springs did break, but it was a simple fix that a modestly talented shop could handle in 10 minutes, assuming the rest of the fork still had life left before needing service.

    Enter the X piston, first one from the "new" Cannondale. It had problems, fast and hard. Spring types and series were blamed, swapped out, etc, none lasted as long as the first gens did though.

    Enter the dream of no more evil wave washer.

    So January, these coil ones come out, and hey, you grease them, and guess what, you have problems worse than a broken wave spring.

    Scramble, tweak processes and procedures, and come up with a tentative, yet still fussy solution.

    So version coil spring 2.0 development was underway.

    These kits just became available in the last few weeks, I just took delivery on a bunch of them, and if I'm being honest, I'm a little afraid to use them, and find myself seriously wishing that my pack rat ways had made me keep a mess of the first gen pistons, because I'd have something I could trust.

    Maybe these will be nirvana, but after 2or 3 years of promises, with ever decreasing returns, broken delivery time frames, and pissed off customers with freshly serviced forks from me, on all four corners of the globe, I'm left feeling a tad gun shy, yet also, cornered without any way out.

    Basic lesson, just because you tried to change it "for the better", doesn't mean you actually did. If these pistons work reliably, I'll be incredibly happy, but I won't be depriving myself of oxygen manually till that's a known fact.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  37. #37
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howards View Post
    Different perspectives I suppose - I look after my kit, and my Booted experience in wet UK conditions always involved post ride boot and filter checks, making sure no moisture got in + re-grease. Regardless of any spills. I could find some - albeit probably not catastrophic - moisture in the telescope after a hard days ride with a as-new condition boot. In grim weather, obvs.
    Strange, as while I may not have "British weather" in the northeastern US, we definitely have more than our fair share of rain, and I ride all year round as well. The last few years have seen some pretty insane precip. I ride in it all.

    Different riding perhaps, but it never was an issue for me or many I rode with who have them also.

    Out of the 1000+ forks a year I see, the vast majority booted still, I need to gut and replace all the races and bearings, maybe once every couple months. And often, a corroded race or two, are simply flipped, and things are good to go again, no new parts required.

    Simple, cheap, effective, serviceable.

    If the Hybrids worked (and air pistons were never a huge concern of mine in the first place) as promised, cool. But they don't, and they are making a product that many who don't ride them, now have ample and just cause to deride. Far more than a silly black condom and the need for occasional upkeep at least......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  38. #38
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    So, is the performance of the Lefty Hybrid and 2.0 so much better than the previous generation that is justifies dealing with the increased maintenance requirement?

  39. #39
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    Personally? I don't think it's worth it, performance wise (as the only metric that is).

    Can you still buy a new booted one? No. Guess you need to accept the Hybrid.

    Can you still service booted ones, and get admirable performance? Yes.

    Can you buy a booted 29er fork with 130 mm of travel? No, guess you have to accept the Hybrid.

    Will you be blown away by improvements in stiffness, plushness, tracking etc in a Hybrid? No, those are all inherent traits to the Lefty from the get go.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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    The press seems to think the dampers are better and have been really positive about the lefties on the Habit. But they could have given trad. lefty a new, better damper, too - they are still the modular screw in type as I understand it.

    The 2.0 I own isn't the best sus 'thing' I own, but it really should be :/

  41. #41
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    Have you ever known the press to say something bad about the company that just paid them to review their product, in advertising dollars?

    There's a reason Mountain Bike Action is known in more truth speaking circles as Mountain Bike Fiction....

    Honestly? Just got a 2.0 SuperMax, after riding a 1.0 SM for the last year and a half.

    I may not be a well paid professional MTB writer or rider, but me? They feel the same, save the fact that the larger OD damper shaft added some extra volume reduction to the air chamber that I can't undo by removing the VR, so I need to run it a fair bit softer than the 1.0 to feel nearly as nice.

    Don't let the sales and marketing guys worm their way into your brain.....

    If I had a dime for how revolutionary every change some engineer (industry wide now) made, was going to be, I'd be living the life Robin Leach always extolled!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  42. #42
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    so Mendon, are you saying KH220 became obselete already ? what is the new reference ?

  43. #43
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    I can't recall off the top of my head. New one has a whacked out part #. Suffice to say, they aren't selling the *old* ones anymore as they ran out.

    Seems Dorel is primarily interested in spending more on package designs with increased use of paper card stock to increase waste, and reworking product codes.

    Codes the old company used for 20 year? Nah, they don't work, we need something nobody can possibly regurgitate.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  44. #44
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    Is there any good reason why the bicycle suspension industry got rid of boots in the first place? (something about moisture being trapped under there?)

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post

    If I had a dime for how revolutionary every change some engineer (industry wide now) made, was going to be, I'd be living the life Robin Leach always extolled!
    If we add up all the claimed weight savings for a given frame over the years, we end up with a frame that floats in air

  46. #46
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    Also....as I mentioned earlier, what's going on here?





    From a post here in 2010:

    "I just received my new Lefty Speed Carbon 110 DLR SL OPI and it weighs in at 1180grams vs the 1159 advertised"


  47. #47
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    Worth noting in the pics, lower one has the steerer on it.

    But yes, weight reduction is not the paramount goal it seems. Fine by me. I'd rather have stiffer than lighter anyway.

    If memory serves, the MTB industry has always taken cues from the motocross side of things. Moto's used to have boots too, then switched. My guess, the bike industry just wanted the new, cool, clean look of wiper seals like their motobro's had, instead of boots.

    Each has benefits and drawbacks, nothing in life is free, just ask my dog....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  48. #48
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    If you fixed the frame in a jig and pulled the front tyre contact patch over (to simulate a hard turn, for example) You might move the contact patch to either side by 1cm and that movement might be contributed by:-

    - 40% Tyre deformation (2.3 tyre, tubeless with relatively low pressure)
    - 35% wheel / rim / spoke flex
    - 3% flex in “play” between headset bearings/ steerer, hub bearings / axle etc.
    - 10% sideways deflection in the fork? (Even 20% would only be 2mm)
    - 2% twist in head tube

    So worrying about the fork deflection seems like a redherring to me. More mileage to be gained by looking at spoke bracing angle (which in fairness they have done with the Fsi front and rear)

    Fair enough if you are not concerned with weight yourself but to my mind the development process here doesn’t make sense (for some of the bikes at least). Every article on new Scalpel Si the first thing mentioned is how light the scalpel frame is and a perfect XC race bike (lots of scalpels at XC races over here). Meanwhile, the fork that goes on that bike has put on 400g over the last couple of years. Next year maybe they shout about weight saved on the fork and quietly make the frame heavier in preparation for saving weight on the frame the following year

  49. #49
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    I'd be happy for weight saved in the frame to be added back to critical components so that they lasted longer / worked better. As long as the weight remained sensible; I don't really need a lighter XC bike given some of the stuff we are supposed to ride em on.

    I kinda hoped this is what 'dale were trying to do here...

  50. #50
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    From what I was told, the design exchanges the older, more frequent service intervals for having a dealer do it but a bit less often. That doesn't really suit me but might suit others that are prepared to send their fork off every 50/100 hours at £100 a time.

    Having said that, maybe the hybrid and 2.0 are very easy to service, I don't know but we've got one of each here that are well overdue.

  51. #51
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    All I can tell you, is I service a metric ton of Leftys. Have for over 10 years as a business venture, and far longer as a shop employee.

    I've seen more Hybrids damaged to the point of needing large, $$$ parts replaced since they were introduced a few short years ago, than probably, all the other Leftys serviced in the last 10.

    I can count on one hand each, the number of booted lower legs, or uppers, that needed replacing due to lack of service. Likely half were due to customer hamfistedness, or significant collisions.

    I've sent and had lower legs replaced, on easily a half dozen or more Hybrids, since this Spring.

    Whatever mark they were going for, they missed, and their optics need some serious range time and adjustment to get back on target.

    These are all based on end users, using forks the way they normally would. Had it been booted, maybe a few races, some bearings, a boot, and fresh seals and oil, good to go, even after 5+ years of abuse.

    If you can't recreationally ride a Hybrid for a year or two without several requisite service intervals being required, lest you destroy and have to replace the lower half of your fork? I'm not seeing that as progress for the "average Joe" rider. Booted forks might have suggested intervals for service, but I can tell you, I get forks every week that haven't seen service since new, and I can make them 100% again, for under $100. And yes, they got plenty of miles pushed through them, they aren't garage queens.

    Some shaved leg dude on a 19 pound race rocket who has a shop do all his work for him after every "event"? Those folks are good Hybrid customers.

    So frustrating, for me, and most definitely for all those folks who paid good $ to ride a great product.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  52. #52
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    Yes, it's a shame. Fundamentally that was always the clever thing about Leftys and the design flaw in almost every other fork IMO, where the sliding / wearing surface is a key part of the structure.
    Last edited by jimification; 08-09-2016 at 02:13 AM.

  53. #53
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    Jim your also comparing a Carbon xlr to an alloy 2.0...with a steerer that might also have the stem attached.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by utah joe View Post
    Jim your also comparing a Carbon xlr to an alloy 2.0...with a steerer that might also have the stem attached.
    True. I looked for better pics but couldn't find any, I'm afraid. I've got two booted PBR's, a hybrid and a 2.0 here though, so next time they're off the bikes I'll try to weigh them for fair comparison but AFAIK, very roughly weight has gone something like: 1400g (2011PBR) 1600g (Hybrid) 1800g (2.0) (all alloy) Happy to be proved wrong, though!

  55. #55
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    Jim- i think you're right. I don't have a scale to give the exact weights, but I have a hybrid and a 2.0 that i was swapping between bikes. The 2.0 is MUCH heavier.

  56. #56
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    Do these issues also apply to the Lefty Oliver?

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    It's worth pointing out that for 2017, the Habit follows Craig's idea of keeping the Hybrid on the racer-boi top models, and instead of "Lefty classic" drops to Pike/Revelation/Recon for the lower models. Even the "burlier" SE model has a Pike.

    There's blank spots in the '17 Dealer book for "All-Mountain" and "Enduro" categories that say "All-New coming Soon", and no mention of the Jekyll or Trigger anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised to see non Lefty forks on the lower-end bikes there either.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by puncturerepairkit View Post
    Do these issues also apply to the Lefty Oliver?
    Oliver, where's your Lefty?
    My name is Chris and I ride a Ripmo now.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimification View Post
    True. I looked for better pics but couldn't find any, I'm afraid. I've got two booted PBR's, a hybrid and a 2.0 here though, so next time they're off the bikes I'll try to weigh them for fair comparison but AFAIK, very roughly weight has gone something like: 1400g (2011PBR) 1600g (Hybrid) 1800g (2.0) (all alloy) Happy to be proved wrong, though!
    My Lefty 2.0 PBR is 1650g without the steerer, I was expecting 1800g so I was pleasantly surprised. Not very light compared to the new Fox and SID though...

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    All I can tell you, is I service a metric ton of Leftys. Have for over 10 years as a business venture, and far longer as a shop employee.

    I've seen more Hybrids damaged to the point of needing large, $$$ parts replaced since they were introduced a few short years ago, than probably, all the other Leftys serviced in the last 10.

    I can count on one hand each, the number of booted lower legs, or uppers, that needed replacing due to lack of service. Likely half were due to customer hamfistedness, or significant collisions.

    I've sent and had lower legs replaced, on easily a half dozen or more Hybrids, since this Spring.

    Whatever mark they were going for, they missed, and their optics need some serious range time and adjustment to get back on target.

    These are all based on end users, using forks the way they normally would. Had it been booted, maybe a few races, some bearings, a boot, and fresh seals and oil, good to go, even after 5+ years of abuse.

    If you can't recreationally ride a Hybrid for a year or two without several requisite service intervals being required, lest you destroy and have to replace the lower half of your fork? I'm not seeing that as progress for the "average Joe" rider. Booted forks might have suggested intervals for service, but I can tell you, I get forks every week that haven't seen service since new, and I can make them 100% again, for under $100. And yes, they got plenty of miles pushed through them, they aren't garage queens.

    Some shaved leg dude on a 19 pound race rocket who has a shop do all his work for him after every "event"? Those folks are good Hybrid customers.

    So frustrating, for me, and most definitely for all those folks who paid good $ to ride a great product.

    How about cdale, eighty aid or better yet, Mendon, manufacture some lowers for the "boot" lefties with the offset axle of the new lefties. This way we can have the new geo with the old performance. I'm sure some shims and after market steerer would be needed as well for head tube difference... IMO even without considering the maintainence schedule, the lefties with needle bearings on 4 sides have a way better feel. I really don't understand the people who don't like the boot. They must be the same guys that have to wear matching helmet and shoes as well. I go function first and everything else after that. I have an F-SI and finally going to get fit again after building a family for last 4-5 years. I think the new geometry is a really good thing but the lefty 2.0 falls short. It's works great when it's fresh, but quickly loses performance. I'm not putting in a tenth of the riding I did in the past, and I'm already wanting at least a boot to out on the lefty. If I start training like I did in the past I will need 2 spare bikes just to keep myself riding.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    The whole industry's hopped on the designed obsolescence bandwagon. .
    Unfortuntely that seems to be the NEW business model that many products are seemingly going with.

    Waiting on my first mtb to show up so definitely have no first hand experience with mtb's but in archery the companies used to run on a three year cycle of R&D and introducing new models. Now they have new bows every year and you are lucky if your model stays in production for more than 2 years and the major parts MAY be available for maybe 5 years. Luckily they haven't decided to change axle, bearing, cable slide,etc dimensions all the time....................YET.

    And for some strange reason the prices for bows have pretty much doubled in 10 years.

  62. #62
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    Someone's gotta pay for that increased R+D turnover......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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