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  1. #1
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    Santee Lakes/Sycamore Marines Confiscating Bikes and Writing Tickets.

    Santee Lakes/Sycamore Marines Confiscating Bikes and Writing Tickets. Happened on Thursday 12/31. Bummer way to end the year. This did not happen to me and I have no other information.

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    so are they just posted up near the signs that mark their territory or what? That's pretty unfortunate if they're really blocking off the sycamore canyon areas now (in addition to the other thread regarding spring canyon and oak canyon areas which are more into mcas land)

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    I heard this as well...and that it was two "high end carbon bikes" When the Marines show up it is usually within a couple hundred yards of the signs in the dry creek bed near the power towers (heading north from Mast area) in Sycamore

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    Is it a clearly posted area where people are not supposed to ride bikes on?

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    Where exactly was this? By the title it leads me to believe it's the trail that's north of santee lakes in sycamore canyon that goes up to goodan ranch. There are some signs there that state it's government property. But if you look on the map, that's the very edge of the govt property line.

    Was that where this happened or was it near the oak and spring canyons are (north of the 52 from mast) ?

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    There are already dozens of threads about that area with maps, etc. It's off limits and if you ride there you pay the price if caught
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    I say ride through on a motocross racer, full throttle, dressed up in Russian military fatigues. Then see what happens.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

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    It's nice that they have solved all of the really important issues facing the Marines and have time and resources to dedicate to stuff like this...

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    Some runners got stopped today. Apparently the crackdown is on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    It's nice that they have solved all of the really important issues facing the Marines and have time and resources to dedicate to stuff like this...
    or maybe people can just follow the rules that they know exist...

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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    or maybe people can just follow the rules that they know exist...
    Probably be a whole lot easier!

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    In their defense; I know a lot of people like to take sycamore canyon north from santee lakes towards goodan ranch and there's a couple different single tracks that go that route with no signs that mention its govt property. There are signs on the fire road that goes north on sycamore canyon rd but a couple single tracks aren't marked. It's right on the edge of govt property line so technically it's questionable.

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    What if somebody slipped in after dark and relocated the boundary markers?
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    What if somebody slipped in after dark and relocated the boundary markers?
    Just because your boyfriend slips in at night, doesn't mean that the above senerio would ever happen.

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    And, I'm telling your wife the next time we hookup! Me and your wife that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    It's nice that they have solved all of the really important issues facing the Marines and have time and resources to dedicate to stuff like this...
    I'm not going to pretend to know what the MC does on that training area, but this is the problem:

    Neither do you. They could be conducting live fire training on that range, or, the area marked off could be within the SDZs of such an exercise.

    Having seen what happens to human bodies when struck by military ordnance, those that lost their bikes should count their blessings.



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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'm not going to pretend to know what the MC does on that training area, but this is the problem:

    Neither do you. They could be conducting live fire training on that range, or, the area marked off could be within the SDZs of such an exercise.

    Having seen what happens to human bodies when struck by military ordnance, those that lost their bikes should count their blessings.



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    If they were doing something like that the property would be fenced off so no one could get into it. However, if people are going on the property and it's clearly marked, they deserve what they get.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    If they were doing something like that the property would be fenced off so no one could get into it. However, if people are going on the property and it's clearly marked, they deserve what they get.
    I've used dozens of live fire ranges on a bunch of Army installations that have no fence around them.

    And, you can drive, walk, or ride on to them.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I've used dozens of live fire ranges on a bunch of Army installations that have no fence around them.

    And, you can drive, walk, or ride on to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I've used dozens of live fire ranges on a bunch of Army installations that have no fence around them.

    And, you can drive, walk, or ride on to them.

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    Do you drive, walk, or ride on to them in the direction that they are firing live rounds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Do you drive, walk, or ride on to them in the direction that they are firing live rounds?
    Depends. There are a boat load of them, with a network of roads leading to them.

    The thing about these facilities and the events that take place on them is that you might not know, visually or audibly, that the range is hot until rounds are cracking over your head. There is no readily recognizable border in some cases.

    Bullets move faster than the speed of sound. A 30rd burst from a medium caliber weapon like an M240 could have a beaten zone a couple hundred yards long, depending on the distance from the firing point. Also, it is very possible to have rounds landing outside the boundaries of the range, well marked or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    No.

    The thing about these facilities and the events that take place on them is that you might not know, visually or audibly, that the range is hot until rounds are cracking over your head. There is no readily recognizable border in some cases.

    Bullets move faster than the speed of sound. A 30rd burst from a medium caliber weapon like an M240 could have a beaten zone a couple hundred yards long, depending on the distance from the firing point. Also, it is very possible to have rounds landing outside the boundaries of the range, well marked or not.

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  23. #23
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    Yep.

    The military bases I've lived on had a network of dirt and gravel roads that would have been GREAT for training on.

    I never rode on them. None of them. Ever.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I've used dozens of live fire ranges on a bunch of Army installations that have no fence around them.

    And, you can drive, walk, or ride on to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yep.

    The military bases I've lived on had a network of dirt and gravel roads that would have been GREAT for training on.

    I never rode on them. None of them. Ever.

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    I said you CAN ride onto them.

    Did I? Hell no. No riding, or any other recreation on them. Not even on weekends. I've had enough ops that ran over into the weekend that I know better than to assume no one was out there.

    I used them for Army training exercises. That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I said you CAN ride onto them.

    Did I? Hell no. No riding, or any other recreation on them. Not even on weekends. I've had enough ops that ran over into the weekend that I know better than to assume no one was out there.

    I used them for Army training exercises. That's it.

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    I meant to imply that I'd used them in their "official" capacity.

    I saw other people fishing on some of the lakes, riding on the roads, etc.

    Edit: Holy Crap. There are Strava segments all over some of them.


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  28. #28
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    Where these people are reportedly getting tickets the past couple of days is far away from the SDZ. And if it is truly at the dry wash under the power lines close to the lakes, that is where some of the more recent signs have been placed. Plausible deniability is probably not going to work as an argument if you get tagged there.

    There is a metric crap tonne of discussion on this area (Sycamore Canyon). Stowe Trail, Santee Lakes, Goodan Ranch, even Mission Trails are all tossed together in the same discussion but this area is not the same as Spring Canyon to the West, in which the northern end falls very close to the SDZ.

    Some enterprising posters in this subforum put together Google Earth mashups of the areas mentioned above, with overlays of popular trails, MCAS property boundaries, and the SDZs (one for the rifle range and one for the lesser known pistol range). Sorry, I'm not having any luck pulling up threads that have them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I meant to imply that I'd used them in their "official" capacity.

    I saw other people fishing on some of the lakes, riding on the roads, etc.

    Edit: Holy Crap. There are Strava segments all over some of them.


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    Is the area between the ranch and the lakes (the flat fireroad/singletrack) off limits? I looked at the map and I wasn't sure. I know there are a couple big signs that say govt. property. There is one just south of the ranch and one just north of the lakes. I would assume everything east of that would be okay for recreation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    Is the area between the ranch and the lakes (the flat fireroad/singletrack) off limits? I looked at the map and I wasn't sure. I know there are a couple big signs that say govt. property. There is one just south of the ranch and one just north of the lakes. I would assume everything east of that would be okay for recreation?
    Pretty much. Most of the actual canyon is military property until about 100 yards south of the ranch gate. The MCAS property has a weird bump-out that extends over the ridge to the East, at the south end of the canyon, but I think *most* of that ridge is not military property. But it also is not Sycamore Preserve property until further north. Wish I had one of those maps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Pretty much. Most of the actual canyon is military property until about 100 yards south of the ranch gate. The MCAS property has a weird bump-out that extends over the ridge to the East, at the south end of the canyon, but I think *most* of that ridge is not military property. But it also is not Sycamore Preserve property until further north. Wish I had one of those maps.

    This is exactly why this thread is misleading and needs clarification as to where exactly this happened. I'm sure we're all aware of the obvious areas of spring and oak canyons that are government property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Wish I had one of those maps.
    Found one:

    Quote Originally Posted by random walk View Post
    Just to add on to Chuck's -- purely for discussion purposes... please make no assumptions of legality, accuracy, liability, celibacy, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

    I did a mashup of a map from the MCAS Miramar Land Use document and Google Earth satellite imagery. See the pic below. I added a Spring/Oak trail network track (blue) and a Santee-Sycamore track (red). A little birdie sent me these. The MCAS boundary is in yellow -- a little rough but fairly accurate. Ignore the larger grayish box, that's an artifact of the GE image overlay.



    Notice the ridge road North of the canyons (dashed red line), between the tops of Spring & Oak, is in the Surface Danger Zone (SDZ, dashed black polygon) of the Rifle Range that I spoke about above.

    For Sycamore, switchback hill (Santee Lakes) and most of Sycamore canyon "proper" are on MCAS land.
    If you look at the lower right corner of the yellow "box" -- where the red trail splits with the sewer treatment ponds just to the right -- that's where I believe the tickets were being issued over the weekend. If I'm mistaken, someone please point that out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Found one:



    If you look at the lower right corner of the yellow "box" -- where the red trail splits with the sewer treatment ponds just to the right -- that's where I believe the tickets were being issued over the weekend. If I'm mistaken, someone please point that out.
    Thanks for posting that. Sucks for people who go and park at the end sycamore park drive and take Ridge Trail down the hill. ...you're basically stuck with running right into military territory at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanfootlong View Post
    Thanks for posting that. Sucks for people who go and park at the end sycamore park drive and take Ridge Trail down the hill. ...you're basically stuck with running right into military territory at that point.
    I think you're talking about the "official" trail that goes south from the top of Cardiac parking lot and drops into the canyon within a few hundred yards of the south Goodan gate. If you come down that trail and turn north back towards Goodan, you're OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    I think you're talking about the "official" trail that goes south from the top of Cardiac parking lot and drops into the canyon within a few hundred yards of the south Goodan gate. If you come down that trail and turn north back towards Goodan, you're OK.
    yes exactly what Im talking about. I wish they could make the boundary very clear for everyone. For instance, riding sycamore canyon rd north to the gate of goodan ranch is off limits and is posted, but to the west about 20 yards is a single track trail (slightly up on the hillside to the west of sycamore canyon rd) with absolutely no signs whatsoever. It would suck to not know that its military property in that area simply because its not marked and end up getting a ticket.

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    How many of the people commenting have actually ridden on or around the trails in question? Because a lot of the stuff being talked about here (live fire ranges, boundary markers, etc) don't exist out there and are irrelevant in this conversation. I live a few miles away and ride Sycamore Canyon regularly and have for over 15 years. There is a lot of confusion over where the military land starts and ends. It's a hodge-podge mix of city, private, and military land and enforcement is rare and sporadic. Even looking at the maps (made by mountain bikers by the way) it's hard to tell. There aren't any fences or boundary makers aside from a couple of signs placed well inside the canyon on a couple of trails with routes around them. The rangers in Sycamore Canyon preserve even had to move gates (that had been there since the park opened) a couple of years ago because they themselves don't know the boundaries apparently. I know some routes that stay on the south side of the canyon and don't go near any of the signs or what appears to be military land, are they legal? Who knows. But with all the BS trail issues (PQ, MTRP, ATT, etc) people have flocked to Sycamore lately. The sad truth is if you want to ride a variety of trails in San Diego there is a good chance you will be trespassing at some point, even if it isn't intentional. Not saying it's right, but that is the reality of the situation down here.

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    I think if you stay east of that yellow boundary line (no matter how accurate) you're probably safe.

    This means a bunch of rocky technical climbing (as well as descending). I think the less fit/skilled riders won't like this. But it is what it is I guess...

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    I think that there are no boundary markers in either area, only signs. And yes, they are pretty sparse.

    I can only speculate that the marines are setting up at the "choke points" and close enough to the signs so that the tickets will stand up in court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    So which is it?
    Since they are not mutually exclusive.....both?

    By "used" live fire ranges, the implication is that he fired weapons at those locations....not that he rode them...

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    Rumor has it 15 more bike confiscated by the Marines today out past Santee Lakes.

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    Stopped by marines on the fire road above rusty barrels

    Wow, after several years of riding and rumors, finally I ran into them. They told me they confiscated 50 bikes in the morning and that live fire would kill me dead and no one would even no about it; and I advised I would comply and w my tail bw my legs I rode back to the trail to rusty barrels. They followed me there and I hear them talking amongst themselves making references to signs and what was or was not off-limits. Wow. So now I am really re-thinking my life on the trails.
    Maybe night-riding is the way to go.

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    So, you want to ride, at night, through a range being used for live fire exercises?

    Brilliant.

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    The upper 1/3 or so of Barrels is on marine property. No signs exist whatsoever to delineate this.

    The fire road at the top has an old sign just south of Toad's which I believe says "NS-3". I've assumed that is basically the boundary -- everything north of that is marine property, including the top of Barrels and Iron (Tank) Tread.

    Standard disclaimers apply -- nothing is exact so ride at your own risk.

    I have heard live fire volleys at night.
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    I love how people on here are so sarcastic. Pretty sure I would hear the live fire though. Point is to stay away from the area when you hear it for sure.. OR, did the ordinance technology become silent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    I love how people on here are so sarcastic. Pretty sure I would hear the live fire though. Point is to stay away from the area when you hear it for sure.. OR, did the ordinance technology become silent?
    You know rounds move faster than the speed of sound, right?

    And you could get hit before you heard them, let alone reacted...

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    I never claimed to live in a perfect world. If I hear live fire I would stay away. But thank you Einstein. I appreciate the lesson re the speed of ordinance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    I never claimed to live in a perfect world. If I hear live fire I would stay away. But thank you Einstein. I appreciate the lesson re the speed of ordinance.
    So, what if they haven't started when you circumvent the precautions (emplaced for your protection) at night?

    How do you plan on hearing them, before they are fired?

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    So, you mean I hear nothing, then I am up there any they start firing? Well, I want to stay away from the segment of fire road facing the range for sure. But there are other segments away from the range that it would take a way crazy piece of ordinance and some exceptionally bad-luck. But I do not plan on biking on the segment facing the range for sure. Point is the patrol extends far beyond where the range is near.

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    You should stay far away from military property.

    Why do you insist on violating federal law?

    The best course of action is to ride on the east side of sycamore. Avoid the westside of the main fireroad as much as possible. If you ignore the warnings they have every right to confiscate your bike and fine you

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    I've been making these comments because I've been in charge of many live fire ranges.

    And, if someone were to be hunting, hiking or riding on part of the range by moving off-road over land to get there, we would have no clue.

    I have no clue what kind of training event they are doing there, but I'll provide an example of why you shouldn't do this.

    If it was a platoon live fire and they initiated their exercise with their support by fire (M240s x 2 or 3), there could be close to 1,000 7.62mm rounds flying through the air at 2,800 ft/s within the first 20 seconds. Now, generally speaking those weapons, if emplaced on a tripod, fired by a competent gunner, controlled by a competent assistant gunner, and directed by a seasoned weapons squad leader, are very accurate. That's a lot of "ifs". And, rounds bounce off of hard surfaces. In a lot of directions. They can fly most of 2.5 miles.

    Now, if its a bigger weapon system, the problem is only magnified.

    Oh, and deer have wandered into these exercises, behind the targets, during night live fires. It isn't pretty the next morning.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    I love how people on here are so sarcastic. Pretty sure I would hear the live fire though. Point is to stay away from the area when you hear it for sure.. OR, did the ordinance technology become silent?
    Not being a smart ass, but the Marines do night exercises, too. Stay safe, stay away.
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    The marines have been telling us for years to not ride on THEIR property. You have ZERO legitimate reasons to complain.

    From the SDMBA website:

    PLEASE READ and SHARE!!! Marines are enforcing the boundaries of Miramar and are confiscating bikes!!!

    For months SDMBA has communicated the Marines would be ticketing riders along with confiscating bikes as evidence for riders on their base. Today they started enforcement.

    While all areas on the Marine base are off limits, they currently are focusing on two locations. Today 15 bikes (that SDMBA knows of) were confiscated by Santee Lakes. This is also known as the Mast Medina location to ride to Goodan Ranch. The area under the power lines along the northeast side of the treatment plant are on the base. Also the entire Sycamore Canyon going up to Goodan Ranch is also on military land.

    The other location being enforced is in East Elliot. The trail known as Three Barrels (aka Rusty Barrels) ends on military land. All of 'tractor tread' trail is on the base. Tractor Tread is where marines have been ticketing.

    We urge all riders to avoid riding these areas and all military land. SDMBA is working closely with agencies and land owners for alternate legal options. For now, please let everyone know what is happening.

    SDMBA has a board meeting this upcoming Wednesday at Mission Trails Visitors Center 7-9pm. We'll be discussing this topic during the meeting with the public invited.

    We also urge everyone to keep looking at our Facebook page, our website San Diego Mountain Biking Association, signup for our free weekly "trail news" email and join our meetup group. All these can be found at our website.

    We feel horrible about what is happening but the Marines have told us this would happen. Our military is at a heightened security alert (for obvious reasons) and must ensure their base is secure.
    Stay tuned for more information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I've been making these comments because I've been in charge of many live fire ranges.

    And, if someone were to be hunting, hiking or riding on part of the range by moving off-road over land to get there, we would have no clue.

    I have no clue what kind of training event they are doing there, but I'll provide an example of why you shouldn't do this.

    If it was a platoon live fire and they initiated their exercise with their support by fire (M240s x 2 or 3), there could be close to 1,000 7.62mm rounds flying through the air at 2,800 ft/s within the first 20 seconds. Now, generally speaking those weapons, if emplaced on a tripod, fired by a competent gunner, controlled by a competent assistant gunner, and directed by a seasoned weapons squad leader, are very accurate. That's a lot of "ifs". And, rounds bounce off of hard surfaces. In a lot of directions. They can fly most of 2.5 miles.

    Now, if its a bigger weapon system, the problem is only magnified.

    Oh, and deer have wandered into these exercises, behind the targets, during night live fires. It isn't pretty the next morning.


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    Seriously why would they be firing into an area where there might be civilians? There are plenty of utility vehicles that go up that way, SDGE and others and civilians have access like it or not. Seriously do the marines want that press that there was a live fire exercise and a civilian was killed? You got to think that they are doing everything they can to anticipate where the ordinance is being directed and considering that there are civilians in this world. I will stay away. But still, hundreds of other civilians have access and the military needs to be cognizant where they are directing fire. I think they are actually and this discussion is all academic. It's a control issue. But I will stay away.

    --------

    The way this sounds above, the nearby homes and people enjoying MTRPs should regularly be donning flak suits. There are M42's after all.

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    Civilians could drive/walk/run/ride on to my base, too.

    We can only control so much. The military has mandatory training to conduct, and no way to know that every area is 100% free of civilians.

    We put up signs, fences, guard and block roads, but if people circumvent those measures, they are knowingly putting themselves at risk.





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    Yeah but Le Duke, we are trying to enjoy some of the greatest gifts God has endowed us with -- beautiful mountain peaks, splendid uphill XC rides, etc, etc.That's all gone now around here so the marines can play GI Joe. I have no idea how I am going to compensate for this now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    Yeah but Le Duke, we are trying to enjoy some of the greatest gifts God has endowed us with -- beautiful mountain peaks, splendid uphill XC rides, etc, etc.That's all gone now around here so the marines can play GI Joe. I have no idea how I am going to compensate for this now.
    I suppose whining does not go so far in the military. They lay down the rules within their domain, and no amount of whimpering and complaining is going to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    Yeah but Le Duke, we are trying to enjoy some of the greatest gifts God has endowed us with -- beautiful mountain peaks, splendid uphill XC rides, etc, etc.That's all gone now around here so the marines can play GI Joe. I have no idea how I am going to compensate for this now.
    And this GI Joe training is what keeps this country safe and gives us the freedoms we have. Without them there would be no mountain biking. This country would be taken over and we would all be slaves to some nutjob leader. Or even worse nuked.


    Do the right thing and stay away from their training grounds.
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    Do they confiscate runners and hikers shoes? How about horseback
    riders horses?

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    I rode up three barrels today. There are no signs of any kind saying it's military land. There are signs up all the other valleys in the area so they better put up a sign because honestly I had no idea it was military land and I seriously doubt others do to. There were several mountain bikers and runners I saw on the trail. There is a sign at the top so you don't go north and I never do. If they don't want us going on three barrels then put a sign up and ticket the people who purposely go past it.

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    We never go out and shoot rhythmic volleys in a line during training, so I wouldn't try to time your rides by what you hear while you're approaching. Ranges get paused to wait for buffalo to wander off, sometimes Marines take lunch breaks, maybe a company is practicing maneuvers with no ammo before having a couple hundred individuals switch over to live fire on the next run.

    It's easy to wander into the wrong place if you don't know and there aren't signs, I get that. If you know the pointy end of a range is nearby, don't assume it's safe to continue because it sounds safe. There are ranges everywhere in there for different purposes, and not all of them are linear.

    I was stationed at Pendleton, but never got to ride in Cali, so hopefully they throw up some signs if I make it out that way so I don't get my bike jacked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And this GI Joe training is what keeps this country safe and gives us the freedoms we have. Without them there would be no mountain biking. This country would be taken over and we would all be slaves to some nutjob leader. Or even worse nuked.


    Do the right thing and stay away from their training grounds.

    I am sure they could find a way to keep us all safe and let us enjoy our nation's resources.

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    From one angle, this thread is painful to read...

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    How do you figure?

    In order to allow you to access those areas, they'd have to publicly announce dates/times that they are training.

    The military will never do that. That is the exact opposite of operational security.

    To expand on MisledYouth's point: Not only are ranges non-linear, meaning that the direction of fire can change, but the firing locations can move depending on the type of exercise. During a squad or platoon live fire exercise, the direction of fire could change by as much as 90 degrees.
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    I don't know. I am just fantasizing...


    -------------

    but one more point is, those fire roads up there inevitably flow into roads/paths with civilian access, including utility vehicles such as SDGE and fire dept, who knows else. Pretty sure those fire roads are not supposed to have ordinance directed into there. There are homes nearby too. It would be really bad press for the military if someone was hurt.

    I personally have the highest respect for the military. It;s just that I have my own selfish reason for wanting to ride there, like an absolute love for the nature, a feeling I am closer to my creator, etc when I get to the top and look down

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    I am sure they could find a way to keep us all safe and let us enjoy our nation's resources.
    Uh, yeah, bust the dumbasses who continually trespass on their property.

    Where exactly do you get the impression this is public property? It is a functioning active military base. There have been warning for months to stay out. There are maps posted. There are no less than 10 different threads on THIS SITE on THIS TOPIC. There is no way you can say "I didn't know".

    As far as the comment "There are plenty of utility vehicles that go up that way, SDG&E and others and civilians have access like it or not" the utility vehicles don't stray onto the land without clearance. All others do not have access. They (read YOU) are trespassing. Not kind of, not maybe, you ARE trespassing. The shooting range has been active for nearly the entire time the base has been around. It is out in the middle of nowhere to keep everyone safe. The fact that people actively ride the ridge above the range is just ludicrous. Darwin awards probably have a category here - lead poisoning at 1000 yards?

    Good luck with the sympathy train. I am sure there are others.
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    "Good luck with the sympathy train. I am sure there are others."

    Yes, sympathy gets nowhere I realize that. It is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And this GI Joe training is what keeps this country safe and gives us the freedoms we have. Without them there would be no mountain biking. This country would be taken over and we would all be slaves to some nutjob leader. Or even worse nuked.


    Do the right thing and stay away from their training grounds.

    Also I would like to say, how impressive those men are in the military. Sure they do their GI Joe thing, but that is what makes the USA, the USA. The men in the vehicle really did impress me as being rather highly professional and certainly well trained. Glad it wasn't the Mexican military I ran into. And I guess I really do owe them a lot of gratitude for not confiscating the bike. I do not expect the same if they run into me again though.

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    Apparently, if they are not allowed to seize our bikes, the terrorists will have won.

  71. #71
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    Does anyone know specifically of someone who had their bike confiscated? Yesterday the marines gave me a warning, but told me they confiscated 50 bikes.

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    Merged these two threads since they are basically the same topic.
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  73. #73
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    I rode there today. At the top of Martha's, some guys told us to avoid going back the way we came. So we took an eastern route back to the high school parking lot. While wondering if it was all true and if we missed all the muddy single track back, three riders came back to the same lot, bike-less and walking. We chatted with one guy and it's true--they took his bike, wrote a ticket and he'll have to go appear in court or something and claim his bike later. He added that the Marines didn't seem happy to do it--it was just their orders and you know how that goes in the military. Sucks.

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    Several of my Friends just had their bikes taken. Right now.

    They were riding on the old racers and chasers / QND course and got picked up leaving goodan ranch.

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    Why are people riding where they are not supposed to riding. When we find mountain bikers riding on the ranch, they come in from the north end. We make them exit the south end. To get back to where they started, it's a 53 mile ride on city streets. There's really only one route to get back without taking the freeways. And, you have to really know the area to find it. I often wonder how they get back.

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    Wait a second. These guys just gave up their bikes without a fight? I don't necessarily mean a physical fight, I mean a verbal challenge. Like, "We are leaving now, do not try to take our bikes from us because we will not comply."

    Even if they have guns pointed at the riders, what are they going to do, shoot them for non-compliance?

    Do you really think that the Marines are going to chase them down? I' don't.

    Obviously, and I thoroughly understand, everyone has been warned not to be there but if I was some innocent soul who really didn't know, I would challenge them.

    EDIT: What if it's hikers with no bikes? They get a trespassing ticket like the riders do, so why take the rider's bike? I would challenge this in court, too.
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    Well I can tell you that the marines I ran into yesterday had badges that said "police." If they want the bike(es) they get them. It's a losing battle to get in a pissing match with a policeman.

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    If they were writing tickets that would require you to appear in civilian world court, I would say that the lack of signage would be a very viable argument in court. I saw it tried many, many times in 30+ years in law enforcement. Luckily, the City of San Diego generally goes overboard with signage in the beach areas so the argument never seemed to work. However, I'm *guessing* that these riders will have to appear in some sort of court proceeding on base (since I've never seen military police officers in civilian court) and I'm sure they play by all sorts of different rules. They may follow the standard "ignorance is not a valid excuse" program.

    As far as taking bikes, I'm absolutely sure that this is legal and acceptable. Some officers used to take skateboards of repeat offenders in Mission Beach on a regular basis. Trying to fight with them when they are on legal footing is a bad, bad idea.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    If they were writing tickets that would require you to appear in civilian world court, I would say that the lack of signage would be a very viable argument in court. I saw it tried many, many times in 30+ years in law enforcement. Luckily, the City of San Diego generally goes overboard with signage in the beach areas so the argument never seemed to work. However, I'm *guessing* that these riders will have to appear in some sort of court proceeding on base (since I've never seen military police officers in civilian court) and I'm sure they play by all sorts of different rules. They may follow the standard "ignorance is not a valid excuse" program.

    As far as taking bikes, I'm absolutely sure that this is legal and acceptable. Some officers used to take skateboards of repeat offenders in Mission Beach on a regular basis. Trying to fight with them when they are on legal footing is a bad, bad idea.

    yeah I would like to see how that would play out with me yesterday if the marines were going to take my bike and I failed to comply -- not sure I would have prevailed. point is the question was posed "will they shoot you for non-compliance."? well, they do what they have to do to get the job done. I suppose if someone is riding away no they will not shoot. but I have no doubt they can tack on resisting arrest, or resisting law enforcement charges, etc etc. and now there is a group of marines that will all back each other up. Unfortunately for us riders, the MP's are authorized to represent the federal gov't. and try fighting the feds. Try not paying taxes and see how that goes. It is beyond David and Goliath. If I see them from a distance I will try and pedal away but once I am in their presence, it's all their game. Unfortunately I am going to have to avoid the trails that are prohibited bc you cannot win against Uncle Sam. No one ever has.


    edit:
    as far as not paying the taxes go, as an independent business owner I had fallen behind on my taxes and, like being on unauthorized Federal land, there is no way out except compliance on their terms. Sometimes I get pissed bc the Fed Govt is so demanding on taxes and where we can and cannot take our bikes. But those guys in fatigues, well some of them have paid much higher prices in compliance to what the government required. Just sayen.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    As far as taking bikes, I'm absolutely sure that this is legal and acceptable. Some officers used to take skateboards of repeat offenders in Mission Beach on a regular basis. Trying to fight with them when they are on legal footing is a bad, bad idea.
    Not if you can get away. They are only going to make a mild attempt to catch you. I am positive that they are pissed off just having to be stationed out there in BFE. If you can put some distance between them and you, you're free.
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    " If you can put some distance between them and you, you're free."

    But their vehicles have a lot of speed. So, if you are on a fire road and they see you within moments they can be all over your ass.
    -----
    edit:

    Still, the dumb ass in me cannot help asking if those MP's ride around at night. Hey Duke, et al, just wondering aloud. don't get your knickers in a tizzy please.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantrain View Post
    " If you can put some distance between them and you, you're free."

    But their vehicles have a lot of speed. So, if you are on a fire road and they see you within moments they can be all over your ass.
    Not if you drop down the face of the hill. They are not going to chase you. Might as well make it adventurous, right.

    If they have you surrounded and there is no way to get away, then of course, i would comply. But if I saw them from afar (BTW, I am the type of guy with eagle's vision who is always looking out for things like this) then i would immediately flip around and put some distance between myself and them.

    Are these "police" hiding in the bushes with artificial plants strapped to their backs when all of a sudden they pop up seemingly out of nowhere???
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  83. #83
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    Bad Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Not if you can get away. They are only going to make a mild attempt to catch you. I am positive that they are pissed off just having to be stationed out there in BFE. If you can put some distance between them and you, you're free.
    This is a horrible idea. What if they do chase you? By doing this you could turn a simple trespassing ticket into several additional charges and possibly a night or two in jail.

    If you are concerned about receiving a citation for trespassing or losing your bike: just stay off Miramar!

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    Or, they could use the now-standard "We thought he was armed!" line and put two in your face.

    Civilian cops use it all the time; it would be even easier for MPs to use it on a military base.

    I'm not saying it's right (it's not), but an MP guarding a restricted access facility during a time of elevated security measures might feel a bit jumpy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Or, they could use the now-standard "We thought he was armed!" line and put two in your face.

    Civilian cops use it all the time; it would be even easier for MPs to use it on a military base.

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    On a military base the only reason they need is that you tried to get away. It's a Ferderal offense to trespass on a base. And, they don't take that lightly, especially if you follow that up by doing something stupid.

    My suggestion to everyone is: if you know your not in a legal riding area, you're trespassing. If you have to ask yourself if you're in a legal riding area, you're trespassing. If you're trespassing you can expect anything from getting away with it to being killed. It's really not worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Or, they could use the now-standard "We thought he was armed!" line and put two in your face.

    Civilian cops use it all the time; it would be even easier for MPs to use it on a military base.

    I'm not saying it's right (it's not), but an MP guarding a restricted access facility during a time of elevated security measures might feel a bit jumpy.

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    yeah that would be really great local press for the marines for sure if a biker was killed (not). Let's be real here. The last thing the military wants here locally in San Diego is a biker or any civilian killed by a military cop. So come down to earth, It makes me question the credibility of the posts. They are not going to shoot at a biker who rode away. If they did it would be the worse PR nightmare the Marines have had since one of their F-18s took out a few homes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    On a military base the only reason they need is that you tried to get away. It's a Ferderal offense to trespass on a base. And, they don't take that lightly, especially if you follow that up by doing something stupid.

    My suggestion to everyone is: if you know your not in a legal riding area, you're trespassing. If you have to ask yourself if you're in a legal riding area, you're trespassing. If you're trespassing you can expect anything from getting away with it to being killed. It's really not worth it.
    How about they show positively the boundaries and put up appropriate signage? Not everyone reads MTBR forums! I ride out there three to four times a week but never go past the signs. Three barrels has NO signage that would indicate you are on military land! Absolute BS if you think everyone wants to trespass purposely! I don't want my bike taken and will not ride there now but only because I know now from the email I got from SDMBA. Many people do not know and the military is not being very transparent where the boundaries are. I don't think the majority of people are purposely trying to get there bikes taken away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R38 View Post
    This is a horrible idea. What if they do chase you? By doing this you could turn a simple trespassing ticket into several additional charges and possibly a night or two in jail.
    You're assuming that they are going to catch me. I am assuming that they would not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    You're assuming that they are going to catch me. I am assuming that they would not.
    Bullets are faster than you are.

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    Do you guys really think that they are going to shoot and innocent civilian for trespassing if they are trying to flee? They wouldn't even draw their guns. You guys act like they are murderous monsters that are out to kill. I'm telling you, those guys don't want to have to deal with this.

    Besides that, you are 100 times more likely to die in a mountain biking accident than getting shot by a military police while fleeing a trespassing call.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armeniandave View Post
    How about they show positively the boundaries and put up appropriate signage? Not everyone reads MTBR forums! I ride out there three to four times a week but never go past the signs. Three barrels has NO signage that would indicate you are on military land! Absolute BS if you think everyone wants to trespass purposely! I don't want my bike taken and will not ride there now but only because I know now from the email I got from SDMBA. Many people do not know and the military is not being very transparent where the boundaries are. I don't think the majority of people are purposely trying to get there bikes taken away.
    Did you read the article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Do you guys really think that they are going to shoot and innocent civilian for trespassing if they are trying to flee? They wouldn't even draw their guns. You guys act like they are murderous monsters that are out to kill. I'm telling you, those guys don't want to have to deal with this.

    Besides that, you are 100 times more likely to die in a mountain biking accident than getting shot by a military police while fleeing a trespassing call.
    Go test your theory and get back to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Do you guys really think that they are going to shoot and innocent civilian for trespassing if they are trying to flee? They wouldn't even draw their guns. You guys act like they are murderous monsters that are out to kill. I'm telling you, those guys don't want to have to deal with this.

    Besides that, you are 100 times more likely to die in a mountain biking accident than getting shot by a military police while fleeing a trespassing call.
    I don't think I'd be worried about getting shot by an MP...more like "accidentally" winding up in a CIA black site on trumped up terrorism charges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Did you read the article?
    Yes I did. SDMBA says just tractor trail but post #33 shows a map that has the top of three barrels off limits too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Bullets are faster than you are.
    You're looking at as though it's trespassers on your ranch. I've heard the rumors about the secret burial sights hidden in the corner of your land. They aren't gonna shoot first and ask questions later. It's different. They have to answer to a higher power. You do not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    You're looking at as though it's trespassers on your ranch. I've heard the rumors about the secret burial sights hidden in the corner of your land. They aren't gonna shoot first and ask questions later. It's different. They have to answer to a higher power. You do not.
    You forgot about rape and pillage!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You forgot about rape and pillage!
    I was trying to be respectful, sir.
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    12,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Armeniandave View Post
    Yes I did. SDMBA says just tractor trail but post #33 shows a map that has the top of three barrels off limits too.
    Well, don't go there then.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BADDANDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    212
    Most laws state that any person who enters onto private property that is enclosed or cultivated without written permission from the owner or authorized agent is guilty of trespassing.
    They don't have to be fenced, marked or signed!
    They do say signage and notices (media) are helpful for convictions, but not required for enforcement (arrest), or being SHOT!
    You're an idiot if you believe every 18 year old Marine would not shoot your dumb ass. Especially if you're ignorant rider buddies were picketing the Main gate due to bike confiscation when he came to work this morning.

    I put a link here for you to read the state laws;
    Trespassing Laws & Signs For All Fifty States | Signs.com

    Basically if you're bike gets taken or you get fined, the USMC will turn your case over to the U.S. Magistrate and you'll deal with it in civilian court. Link here;
    Central Violations Bureau

    Also, the USFS has changed the law to state all forest roads are now considered closed unless posted open. Notice I didn't state signed, it is your responsibility to go to each FS website to ensure any road/trail you're gonna be on are stated OPEN. Above rules apply.
    2015 Giant Stance 2 - 1 X 10 11/42 30T
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