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Thread: E bike fines

  1. #1
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    E bike fines

    I read that this is happening at Chesebro in Agoura Hills. $180 fine. First I've heard of actual tickets being handed out. Haven't been to Chesboro in awhile...but I've been noticing more of them at a couple other spots I go to.

    I've also been seeing them up a Mt Pinos...are they legal there?

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    Where did you read that?
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    I saw it on a local Facebook MTB page.

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    My friend is working in Simi and says he's seen a bunch of ebikes around Rocky Peak.

    He also said they're legal in Cali?
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    I wouldn't doubt it. If you're riding the Hummingbird area trails...an e bike can make doing multiple runs much easier.

    In that same post I've also read that pedal assist e bikes are not allowed on the Santa Monica mountain trails. Not sure if Simi is part of the Santa Monicas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    My friend is working in Simi and says he's seen a bunch of ebikes around Rocky Peak.

    He also said they're legal in Cali?
    Certain Class eBikes are to be treated the same as pedal bikes with the GIANT Caveat that the local land managers still have the final say and can regulate them as they see fit.

    So, if a trail system is managed by the City and the city decides that eBikes are not allowed, it is up the city to enforce that rule.

    This was mostly done so that people could purchase an eBike and ride it on the street without requiring a license or insurance, but the fall out has been people think it gives them free reign to ride them anywhere a bike could go, thus the ability for land managers to make their own rules the superseded the state designation.
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    Tickets are also being written up in the OC parks based on what I read on another MTB website.
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    Awesome news!

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    I hope the bike shops that are selling these bikes are letting their customers know where they can and can't ride their e bikes.

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    I think for the future the ebike lobby has the potential to dwarf the mtb lobby. Pretty soon they will band together as enforcement ratchets up, and form a monster entity and rules will be changed. Localities can't even enforce helmet laws at the skate parks without an outcry. In this country, the majority usually get their way, right or wrong. I don't really care if someone passes me on the hill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grodyman View Post
    I think for the future the ebike lobby has the potential to dwarf the mtb lobby. Pretty soon they will band together as enforcement ratchets up, and form a monster entity and rules will be changed. Localities can't even enforce helmet laws at the skate parks without an outcry. In this country, the majority usually get their way, right or wrong. I don't really care if someone passes me on the hill.
    It doesn't necessarily have to be a majority. In this day and age, a very vocal minority will do. At this point, almost everybody passes me going up a hill, ebike or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grodyman View Post
    I think for the future the ebike lobby has the potential to dwarf the mtb lobby. Pretty soon they will band together as enforcement ratchets up, and form a monster entity and rules will be changed. Localities can't even enforce helmet laws at the skate parks without an outcry. In this country, the majority usually get their way, right or wrong. I don't really care if someone passes me on the hill.
    Interesting take. Could go this way. We are having this debate in trail advocacy groups right now in Marin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    Interesting take. Could go this way. We are having this debate in trail advocacy groups right now in Marin.

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    I don't see why, just because a very small minority are buying ebikes that this magical opening of trails will happen. Look at the ebike forum, they probably average less than 20 replies to each post, unless the anti's get involved. We have been buying mountain bikes for decades in Marin, very few trails have opened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I don't see why, just because a very small minority are buying ebikes that this magical opening of trails will happen. Look at the ebike forum, they probably average less than 20 replies to each post, unless the anti's get involved. We have been buying mountain bikes for decades in Marin, very few trails have opened.
    For the records I agree with you, but I do acknowledge there is this other theory out there.

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    Confirmed with the Rangers at Santiago Oaks.....they are citing for Ebikes, as well as dogs off leash.
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    Well if Orange County can fine E-bikes $180 each another 10 million times, they just might get out of debt lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Confirmed with the Rangers at Santiago Oaks.....they are citing for Ebikes, as well as dogs off leash.
    E-biker passed me today at Santiago Oaks heading up a long climb. Wonder if the message is out about fines yet?

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    No need to levy a fine, just drain their battery and tell them to pedal back. Should be punishment enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I don't see why, just because a very small minority are buying ebikes that this magical opening of trails will happen. Look at the ebike forum, they probably average less than 20 replies to each post, unless the anti's get involved. We have been buying mountain bikes for decades in Marin, very few trails have opened.
    Most ebike riders are not the core that you see on here. They are a very wealthy minority right now, but are getting addicted to it for the same reasons that we did. That wealthy and vocal minority will fight back against stupid regulations and have the power to change them long term. All of this is nothing but goodness for mountain bikes in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratt View Post
    No need to levy a fine, just drain their battery and tell them to pedal back. Should be punishment enough.
    That is funny. Thanks for the laugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Most ebike riders are not the core that you see on here. They are a very wealthy minority right now, but are getting addicted to it for the same reasons that we did. That wealthy and vocal minority will fight back against stupid regulations and have the power to change them long term. All of this is nothing but goodness for mountain bikes in general.
    This is the view I've come around to. Ebikes = lower barriers to picking up a bike = more riders (high income/influential ones, too), who we desperately need to balance our position against the incumbent hikers, equestrians, etc. More riders means more seats at the table, which is what we need if we want more access.

    Although I don't think its confirmation bias on my part that they're often kind of dicks on the trail. Hoping they'll become more aware of the etiquette as time goes on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olslash View Post
    This is the view I've come around to. Ebikes = lower barriers to picking up a bike = more riders (high income/influential ones, too), who we desperately need to balance our position against the incumbent hikers, equestrians, etc. More riders means more seats at the table, which is what we need if we want more access.

    Although I don't think its confirmation bias on my part that they're often kind of dicks on the trail. Hoping they'll become more aware of the etiquette as time goes on.
    Shit, I don't necessarily agree with you, but I find the rationality and open mindedness of your approach very refreshing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Most ebike riders are not the core that you see on here. They are a very wealthy minority right now, but are getting addicted to it for the same reasons that we did. That wealthy and vocal minority will fight back against stupid regulations and have the power to change them long term. All of this is nothing but goodness for mountain bikes in general.
    How will they fight back? Show up to bunch of meetings, go through all the crap we have had to go through for at least a decade in Marin? How will they stop the Audubon Society from suing the county every time they open a trail to bikes?

    I see them getting fed up with it and either buying real bikes or moving on to another sport to fill their time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    In that same post I've also read that pedal assist e bikes are not allowed on the Santa Monica mountain trails. Not sure if Simi is part of the Santa Monicas.
    Different sections of the Santa Monica mountains have various land managers. I'm only familiar with the local trails on the south side (Santa Monica). They are technically not allowed, but it's not enforced. I see lots of e-bikes on the trails. There are no signs banning them. However, I heard some say they are starting to put up signs towards the Malibu trails.

    Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of them are not new riders, they are regular mountain bikers who are switching over. They are usually older and have better trail etiquette than other bikers. Of course, there are always exceptions, but that's not the norm.

    Personally, I own and ride both types of bikes. I love them both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    How will they fight back? Show up to bunch of meetings, go through all the crap we have had to go through for at least a decade in Marin? How will they stop the Audubon Society from suing the county every time they open a trail to bikes?

    I see them getting fed up with it and either buying real bikes or moving on to another sport to fill their time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by olslash View Post
    Although I don't think its confirmation bias on my part that they're often kind of dicks on the trail. Hoping they'll become more aware of the etiquette as time goes on.
    My negative experiences seem to be at Skypark with people renting them. The ones I have run in to on trail have not been a problem.

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    Not a eBike hater myself but they have their place, just not in OC parks

    Found this just now by poking around a park website:

    Electric Bicycles Prohibited in Parks, Permitted on Some Regional Bikeways

    Orange County Codified Ordinances prohibit the use of motorized conveyances in County parks and recreation areas. This includes the use of all types of e-bikes and e-mountain bikes in regional and wilderness parks.

    A July 17, 2018 revision to OCCO 2-5-29(n) makes the following exception for some regional bikeways: “Class 1 and Class 2 electric bicycles, as defined by the California Vehicle Code, on those regional paved, off-road bikeways designated for such use by the Director of OC Parks.”

    Currently, this means that Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles are only permitted on the following County bikeways: Coyote Creek, Santa Ana River Trail, Bay View, San Diego Creek, Peters Canyon, Hicks Canyon, Aliso Creek, Salt Creek Trail and San Juan Creek bikeways.

    Visitors riding e-bikes in other County park facilities or trails are subject to citation.

    Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices

    In 2010, the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) revised rules to the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) effective March 15, 2011. These rules allow a mobility device defined by DOJ rules as a wheelchair to be permitted in any areas open to pedestrian use.

    Additionally, the DOJ recognized “Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices” (OPDMD) to be used by “individuals with mobility disabilities.” The DOJ requires land owners and land managers to make reasonable modifications to public access policies and establish procedures to allow the use of OPDMD devices by individuals with mobility disabilities.

    Information about American Disability Act mobility device rules can be found here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Not a eBike hater myself but they have their place, just not in OC parks

    Found this just now by poking around a park website:

    Electric Bicycles Prohibited in Parks, Permitted on Some Regional Bikeways

    Orange County Codified Ordinances prohibit the use of motorized conveyances in County parks and recreation areas. This includes the use of all types of e-bikes and e-mountain bikes in regional and wilderness parks.

    A July 17, 2018 revision to OCCO 2-5-29(n) makes the following exception for some regional bikeways: “Class 1 and Class 2 electric bicycles, as defined by the California Vehicle Code, on those regional paved, off-road bikeways designated for such use by the Director of OC Parks.”

    Currently, this means that Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles are only permitted on the following County bikeways: Coyote Creek, Santa Ana River Trail, Bay View, San Diego Creek, Peters Canyon, Hicks Canyon, Aliso Creek, Salt Creek Trail and San Juan Creek bikeways.

    Visitors riding e-bikes in other County park facilities or trails are subject to citation.

    Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices

    In 2010, the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) revised rules to the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) effective March 15, 2011. These rules allow a mobility device defined by DOJ rules as a wheelchair to be permitted in any areas open to pedestrian use.

    Additionally, the DOJ recognized “Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices” (OPDMD) to be used by “individuals with mobility disabilities.” The DOJ requires land owners and land managers to make reasonable modifications to public access policies and establish procedures to allow the use of OPDMD devices by individuals with mobility disabilities.

    Information about American Disability Act mobility device rules can be found here.
    The problem is that most of those "claiming" to have a disablility.....haven't actually read the ADA device rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Most ebike riders are not the core that you see on here. They are a very wealthy minority right now, but are getting addicted to it for the same reasons that we did. That wealthy and vocal minority will fight back against stupid regulations and have the power to change them long term. All of this is nothing but goodness for mountain bikes in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
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    Good luck with the wealthy hiker groups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    I hope the bike shops that are selling these bikes are letting their customers know where they can and can't ride their e bikes.
    And interfere with a sale, seriously? It’s all about the mighty buck. One hint of an ebike being frowned upon in certain areas may hinder the consumer to purchase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    I hope the bike shops that are selling these bikes are letting their customers know where they can and can't ride their e bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    And interfere with a sale, seriously? It’s all about the mighty buck. One hint of an ebike being frowned upon in certain areas may hinder the consumer to purchase.
    Considering the owner of one of the local ebike shops was out riding his ebike in Santiago Oaks over the weekend...,,and I know he is aware of he ban.....I get the feeling that shops are “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
    Bicycles don’t have motors or batteries.

    Ebikes are not bicycles

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Considering the owner of one of the local ebike shops was out riding his ebike in Santiago Oaks over the weekend...,,and I know he is aware of he ban.....I get the feeling that shops are “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
    Someone needs to get some pictures.

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    And while these evil eBikers are riding, we should get pictures of all bikers riding illegal trails also? Let it play out as it should
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    I went out to Sycamore Cyn (Point Mugu area) in the heat the other day and I'd say 1/3 riders were eBikes. Definitely not a tiny minority anymore.

    I don't care either way but it definitely is a risk. Fat fine for operating a motorized vehicle on those trails, they could potentially hit you up with the same fee schedule as operating a dirt bike or driving a truck on a fireroad.

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    Are there any signs banning e-bikes? It's my understanding that it's a requirement before they can hand out tickets. Someone said they are starting to put out the signs in some parts of Malibu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Are there any signs banning e-bikes? It's my understanding that it's a requirement before they can hand out tickets. Someone said they are starting to put out the signs in some parts of Malibu.
    Literally every single public/legit trail in the Malibu / Simi / Chattsworth / Thousand Oaks area has had "No motorized vehicles" signs for decades. They don't specify eBikes specifically but not sure why eBike people insist on being singled out when they are riding a motorized vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristian View Post
    Literally every single public/legit trail in the Malibu / Simi / Chattsworth / Thousand Oaks area has had "No motorized vehicles" signs for decades. They don't specify eBikes specifically but not sure why eBike people insist on being singled out when they are riding a motorized vehicle.
    That's because ebikes that are being sold as mountain bikes are Class 1 "Pedal assisted" bikes and are not considered motorized vehicles so they are not illegal in the state of CA unless the parks specify it, which OCParks recently did. They don't work with a push of a button and the assist stops when you go downhill or stop pedaling.

    Orange County, California - News Details

    I find their reasoning to ban Class 1 ebikes a bit silly, to prevent people from "hurting" themselves on ebikes. You can get hurt mountain biking or hiking without the pedal assist part. I don't see how just because it being pedal assist in helping climb uphill is is any worse than a non pedal assisted mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristian View Post
    Literally every single public/legit trail in the Malibu / Simi / Chattsworth / Thousand Oaks area has had "No motorized vehicles" signs for decades. They don't specify eBikes specifically but not sure why eBike people insist on being singled out when they are riding a motorized vehicle.
    Because the state of California specifically stated that Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are not considered "motor vehicles" and are allowed wherever regular bicycles can be ridden.

    For example, beach bicycle paths also state "no motorized vehicles", but e-bikes are allowed. In the Westisde of the Santa Monica mountains, they recently passed a separate ordinance specifically banning ebikes from trails. However, this isn't enough. They must put up signs.

    Again, I was told they recently started putting up signs in parts of Malibu. Same in some Orange County parks. They usually do this and then start giving warnings. After several weeks/months, then they start giving citations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Because the state of California specifically stated that Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are not considered "motor vehicles" and are allowed wherever regular bicycles can be ridden.

    For example, beach bicycle paths also state "no motorized vehicles", but e-bikes are allowed. In the Westisde of the Santa Monica mountains, they recently passed a separate ordinance specifically banning ebikes from trails. However, this isn't enough. They must put up signs.

    Again, I was told they recently started putting up signs in parts of Malibu. Same in some Orange County parks. They usually do this and then start giving warnings. After several weeks/months, then they start giving citations.
    Santa Monica Recreational is federally managed (National Recreation Area) and federal land doesn't have any excemptions though from what I know though

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristian View Post
    Santa Monica Recreational is federally managed (National Recreation Area) and federal land doesn't have any excemptions though from what I know though
    Who controls what is extremely confusing in this area. I believe it's the California State Parks, further broken down to it being part of Angeles District State Park, and sections controlled by MRCA (Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority), and others. On the Westside, as you pass through Santa Monica and Topanga, a one mile stretch can have 3 different land managers.

    Yet, there is no information on the Santa Monica Mountains websites regarding e-bikes. No mention of bans. For someone who doesn't follow the forums and does very specific searches, it's not clear if e-bikes are banned. And it's even tougher to figure out which land manager controls which sections.

    Any competent attorney will get your ticket dismissed if specific signs banning e-bikes don't exist. Rangers know that. And they're not gonna waste their time writing tickets that can be easily fought. This is why it makes sense to put up signs before doing anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Who controls what is extremely confusing in this area. I believe it's the California State Parks, further broken down to it being part of Angeles District State Park, and sections controlled by MRCA (Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority), and others. On the Westside, as you pass through Santa Monica and Topanga, a one mile stretch can have 3 different land managers.

    Yet, there is no information on the Santa Monica Mountains websites regarding e-bikes. No mention of bans. For someone who doesn't follow the forums and does very specific searches, it's not clear if e-bikes are banned. And it's even tougher to figure out which land manager controls which sections.

    Any competent attorney will get your ticket dismissed if specific signs banning e-bikes don't exist. Rangers know that. And they're not gonna waste their time writing tickets that can be easily fought. This is why it makes sense to put up signs before doing anything else.
    People often tear signs down, you just have to show intent to make the codes public.

    Here's two tickets for those who are interested.

    https://shoutout.wix.com/so/b6MNLh6f...dfaa01b8#/main

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    People often tear signs down, you just have to show intent to make the codes public.

    Here's two tickets for those who are interested.

    https://shoutout.wix.com/so/b6MNLh6f...dfaa01b8#/main
    Thanks. I've been following their facebook page and keep up with them. Signs were posted in the areas where the tickets were issued, but they rode anyways. Latest from them is the Ranger allowed it when they showed their disabled placards. Personally, I don't support their cause as they are pushing for e-bikes so the elderly and disabled can enjoy the parks. I believe it should be open for everyone.

    Even if signs are torn down, they have to show attempts were made to inform the public. In my local mountains, there is absolutely no info on e-bikes, not even mentioned on their web pages. And I do see lots of ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Because the state of California specifically stated that Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are not considered "motor vehicles" and are allowed wherever regular bicycles can be ridden.
    "Motor Vehicles" and "Motorized Vehicles" are not the same thing. But yes that is essentially what the law states leaving it up to the governing land management to decide to ban or not ban.

    The best part(or worst depending on your point of view) of that law is they can be purchased and ridden on the street without having to buy insurance or register them with the state.
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    ebikes are banned on all California USFS trails. Mammoth has a special permit, but from what I've heard, they are confined to the bike park.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    ebikes are banned on all California USFS trails. Mammoth has a special permit, but from what I've heard, they are confined to the bike park.
    Good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Most ebike riders are not the core that you see on here. They are a very wealthy minority right now, but are getting addicted to it for the same reasons that we did. That wealthy and vocal minority will fight back against stupid regulations and have the power to change them long term. All of this is nothing but goodness for mountain bikes in general.
    I think this is much more likely outcome. It is going to end up being a good thing for biking.

    Plus, ebike sales are promising for the industry. Ebikes and bmx are selling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    How will they fight back? Show up to bunch of meetings, go through all the crap we have had to go through for at least a decade in Marin? How will they stop the Audubon Society from suing the county every time they open a trail to bikes?

    I see them getting fed up with it and either buying real bikes or moving on to another sport to fill their time.
    I would agree with you 2 years ago, but people are buying and using battery transport now. Battery is riding a big wave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    "Motor Vehicles" and "Motorized Vehicles" are not the same thing. But yes that is essentially what the law states leaving it up to the governing land management to decide to ban or not ban.

    The best part(or worst depending on your point of view) of that law is they can be purchased and ridden on the street without having to buy insurance or register them with the state.
    Good point on the difference between motor vehicles and motorized vehicles. I truly can't remember what's written at the entrance to the trails (bad memory...can I get a disabled placard?) :-)

    I agree Class I, II & III e-bikes shouldn't have to be registered or require insurance. They are the same thing as bicycles (to me). On a straight road, I go much faster on my road bike (Trek Emonda) than I can with my class 1 e-bike. Once the e-bike tops at 20 mph, it takes much effort to go faster (extra weight and pedal/motor resistance).

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Good point on the difference between motor vehicles and motorized vehicles. I truly can't remember what's written at the entrance to the trails (bad memory...can I get a disabled placard?) :-)

    I agree Class I, II & III e-bikes shouldn't have to be registered or require insurance. They are the same thing as bicycles (to me). On a straight road, I go much faster on my road bike (Trek Emonda) than I can with my class 1 e-bike. Once the e-bike tops at 20 mph, it takes much effort to go faster (extra weight and pedal/motor resistance).

    But the road and dirt are not the same. You ma struggle to ride your Emonda far in the dirt, where an ebike will take off. Can’t compare them.

    People don’t read the signs closely enough. The read Motor Vehicles even through the sign says Motorized Vehicles because they want to argue thT they are not Motor Vehicles.

    OC Parks is supoosed to be updating their signs to say “Motorized Conveyances” whichbis howbitbis worded under ADA. I told them they have to stoop down to the lowest denominator.....and specify NO EBIKES like they have it on the website. That way there is no confusion.
    Bicycles don’t have motors or batteries.

    Ebikes are not bicycles

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    More park managers should follow what land managers have done in Sedona: Trail signage there specifically states that e-bikes aren't allowed on certain trails. Of course, e-bikes are fine where the Jeep tours roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ODB View Post
    More park managers should follow what land managers have done in Sedona: Trail signage there specifically states that e-bikes aren't allowed on certain trails. Of course, e-bikes are fine where the Jeep tours roll.
    That's kinda what's happening up where I live. I live in Big Bear Lake in So Cal, which is smack dab in the middle of San Bernardino National forest.
    I'm a board member of the Big Bear Valley Trails Foundation. With the help of the forestry, we have put " no ebikes" signage on most trail heads( soon to be all trail heads). We've also talked to all the local shops who rent and sell ebikes and requested that a sticker be attached to the top tube stating the no ebikes on trails.
    I really don't have a problem with ebikes as long as they stay on the fires roads and off of the trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    I would agree with you 2 years ago, but people are buying and using battery transport now. Battery is riding a big wave.

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    cjsb - See Jeff's comment below... those who sell and promote ebikes are NOT doing the ground work to get them legalized, instead others are doing the ground work to get them banned.... The idea that just because many people buy them has nothing to do with how the land managers will regulate them. Frankly I see more potential for them to be banned than accepted as time goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    That's kinda what's happening up where I live. I live in Big Bear Lake in So Cal, which is smack dab in the middle of San Bernardino National forest.
    I'm a board member of the Big Bear Valley Trails Foundation. With the help of the forestry, we have put " no ebikes" signage on most trail heads( soon to be all trail heads). We've also talked to all the local shops who rent and sell ebikes and requested that a sticker be attached to the top tube stating the no ebikes on trails.
    I really don't have a problem with ebikes as long as they stay on the fires roads and off of the trails.
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    Another one of your well reasoned posts showing your ehatred.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    Another one of your well reasoned posts showing your ehatred.




    Who are you directing your comments to?
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    My mistake, thought I nested a reply to your last comment. Accidentally replied to the whole thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    That's kinda what's happening up where I live. I live in Big Bear Lake in So Cal, which is smack dab in the middle of San Bernardino National forest.
    I'm a board member of the Big Bear Valley Trails Foundation. With the help of the forestry, we have put " no ebikes" signage on most trail heads( soon to be all trail heads). We've also talked to all the local shops who rent and sell ebikes and requested that a sticker be attached to the top tube stating the no ebikes on trails.
    I really don't have a problem with ebikes as long as they stay on the fires roads and off of the trails.
    Kind of confusing to put "no trails" on the bikes as there is a ton of OHV trails up there that they are legal on, including singletrack

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    cjsb - See Jeff's comment below... those who sell and promote ebikes are NOT doing the ground work to get them legalized, instead others are doing the ground work to get them banned.... The idea that just because many people buy them has nothing to do with how the land managers will regulate them. Frankly I see more potential for them to be banned than accepted as time goes on.
    I agree with you and HJeff, but only to a point. Actually, I am trying to think of the right words here because it is a complicated situation...

    People’s attitudes, including land managers, are more likely to change over time the more they realize that the user group is growing and for the lower end eBikes there isn’t an actual relative safety or impact issue.

    The initial fears are more likely to be countered with a large supportive user group.

    You can see some of this in the commuting arena in cities that have nonsensical bans on E Scooters—and there are a lot of them that ban the use. But they are very popular modes, and they are difficult to maintain a permanent ban. Even the jackasses in San Francisco have back pedaled and started allowing E scooter companies.

    The E Bike user group is more likely to replace the ageing and dying-off Equestrian groups, or simply be a new and accepted user group.

    I think there is a note of caution here for Mountain Bikers in that we should not expect trail use to be limited to 3 ad hoc functions hiking/horsing/Pedal Bikes. Things change over time, and mountain bikers have been by far the more flexible and open minded of these 3 ad hoc trail user groups.

    In fact, mountain bikers should look at this as an opportunity to work with land managers to establish bike only trails, a single trail used by pedal and eBikes. Over time have it re-evaluated for multi-use, and keep moving in that direction. I have no problem sharing my trail with eBikes and if I can get more of them with them it’s a plus. I used to be very much against this eBike access issue, but I think it is the wrong strategy in the long-term.

    When you consider how expensive these bikes are and how much they are still selling it should help inform the opinion on this. The bikes are going to come down in cost and the technology is going to see greater convergence, not complete, but more convergence with pedal bikes. Consider that kids do not ride bikes much at all nowadays, in general. Yet, kids love to hop on anything battery powered. One cannot live in an idyllic notion of how the younger generation should do things—ebike usage is a potential tsunami waiting to roll-in. Pedal mountain bikers are going to use ebikes in more numbers, so at least the usage is going to converge.

    As this convergence happens, we should start promoting eBikes on trails that are currently bike only ( a tiny minority), and have new trails include a bike-ebike only option.

    There were these old advertisements in all the bike magazines back in the halcyon days of Mt. Biking, when it had explosive growth numbers, of couples and families biking in the picturesque mountain meadows, probably somewhere in Big Bear? But what people found out quickly is that it was really effing hard to get your bike up there, and those ads. And the broader appeal vanished. EBikes have a huge potential for a broader appeal, and I am now of the opinion that Mt. bikers need to at least find a way to get more trails for everyone out of it, or create and lead the coalition for access. This is potentially, a golden opportunity for more trail access.


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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    or create and lead the coalition for access. This is potentially, a golden opportunity for more trail access.






    It is also the opportunity to lose a shit ton of access on legacy trails who's very existence relies upon the exclusion of any motorized access at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    People’s attitudes, including land managers, are more likely to change over time the more they realize that the user group is growing and for the lower end eBikes there isn’t an actual relative safety or impact issue.

    The initial fears are more likely to be countered with a large supportive user group.
    Emtb sales have crashed here, because 98% of the trails are off limits. I wouldn't expect a large and supportive user group to emerge where I live. All access is driven locally IME.


    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    The E Bike user group is more likely to replace the ageing and dying-off Equestrian groups, or simply be a new and accepted user group.
    Fine by me, ebikers, get out there and organize.


    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    In fact, mountain bikers should look at this as an opportunity to work with land managers to establish bike only trails, a single trail used by pedal and eBikes. Over time have it re-evaluated for multi-use, and keep moving in that direction.
    You make getting bike only trails sound so easy.....


    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    When you consider how expensive these bikes are and how much they are still selling it should help inform the opinion on this. The bikes are going to come down in cost and the technology is going to see greater convergence, not complete, but more convergence with pedal bikes.
    Will they come down in cost? No, just like bikes, they'll never come down in cost, plus they will always carry a premium over a comparable bike, since you're adding a motor, batteries, electronics, software and the additional engineers needed to design them. Just like bikes though, you will get more for your money as time goes on.

    While I'd agree that there will be convergence in appearance, because the industry is focused on making emtbs look as much like a mtb as possible, from a performance standpoint, there will be increasing divergence. Motors will continue to get more powerful, and especially in the US, there will be an emerging 750w category that will be far less bike-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristian View Post
    Kind of confusing to put "no trails" on the bikes as there is a ton of OHV trails up there that they are legal on, including singletrack
    There are some OHV trails up here ( close to) Big Bear, not a ton as you mention. Crab Flats, and Cactus Flats are really the only legal " single track" if want to call it that, that is close.
    I think we are all talking about multi use trails( horse, hiker, biker) trails
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    The devil is in the details. Without concerted advocacy from ebikers I fail to see any evidence for your assumption that

    "People’s attitudes, including land managers, are more likely to change over time the more they realize that ...."

    Lacking ebiker driven adovacy how do attitudes change in your favor? Why should mtbers join in this effort, when there is potential detriment to associating with motorized vehicles?

    Moreover, a large majority of trail funding is in the form of grants that stipulate nonmotorized multiuse trail. I see the future of mtbs in continuing that model for increased trail access.

    Ebikers can learn from mtbs, but need to lead if they want trail access and not make blanket prognications without laying even minimal groundwork to create the conditions for such a future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Not a eBike hater myself but they have their place, just not in OC parks
    To be fair not much has place inside the OC Parks dumb system. They no longer allow racing events because... it promotes faster than the dumbass 10mph speed limit. Technically all us mtbrs are breaking their speed limits at any time lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    I agree with you and HJeff, but only to a point. Actually, I am trying to think of the right words here because it is a complicated situation...

    People’s attitudes, including land managers, are more likely to change over time the more they realize that the user group is growing and for the lower end eBikes there isn’t an actual relative safety or impact issue.

    The initial fears are more likely to be countered with a large supportive user group.

    You can see some of this in the commuting arena in cities that have nonsensical bans on E Scooters—and there are a lot of them that ban the use. But they are very popular modes, and they are difficult to maintain a permanent ban. Even the jackasses in San Francisco have back pedaled and started allowing E scooter companies.

    The E Bike user group is more likely to replace the ageing and dying-off Equestrian groups, or simply be a new and accepted user group.

    I think there is a note of caution here for Mountain Bikers in that we should not expect trail use to be limited to 3 ad hoc functions hiking/horsing/Pedal Bikes. Things change over time, and mountain bikers have been by far the more flexible and open minded of these 3 ad hoc trail user groups.

    In fact, mountain bikers should look at this as an opportunity to work with land managers to establish bike only trails, a single trail used by pedal and eBikes. Over time have it re-evaluated for multi-use, and keep moving in that direction. I have no problem sharing my trail with eBikes and if I can get more of them with them it’s a plus. I used to be very much against this eBike access issue, but I think it is the wrong strategy in the long-term.

    When you consider how expensive these bikes are and how much they are still selling it should help inform the opinion on this. The bikes are going to come down in cost and the technology is going to see greater convergence, not complete, but more convergence with pedal bikes. Consider that kids do not ride bikes much at all nowadays, in general. Yet, kids love to hop on anything battery powered. One cannot live in an idyllic notion of how the younger generation should do things—ebike usage is a potential tsunami waiting to roll-in. Pedal mountain bikers are going to use ebikes in more numbers, so at least the usage is going to converge.

    As this convergence happens, we should start promoting eBikes on trails that are currently bike only ( a tiny minority), and have new trails include a bike-ebike only option.

    There were these old advertisements in all the bike magazines back in the halcyon days of Mt. Biking, when it had explosive growth numbers, of couples and families biking in the picturesque mountain meadows, probably somewhere in Big Bear? But what people found out quickly is that it was really effing hard to get your bike up there, and those ads. And the broader appeal vanished. EBikes have a huge potential for a broader appeal, and I am now of the opinion that Mt. bikers need to at least find a way to get more trails for everyone out of it, or create and lead the coalition for access. This is potentially, a golden opportunity for more trail access.


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    These are the posts that just show that you have no idea how trail access issues are handled. Go in to a meeting and say "Hey I bought a super expensive bike with a motor on it and would like to have access to your trails now." No one cares that you spent 6-10k on a bike, they just see a motor cycle.

    I wish mountain bike advocates would have thought of asking for bike only trails and access to more single track. How did you guys come up with that, its genius.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    These are the posts that just show that you have no idea how trail access issues are handled. Go in to a meeting and say "Hey I bought a super expensive bike with a motor on it and would like to have access to your trails now." No one cares that you spent 6-10k on a bike, they just see a motor cycle.

    I wish mountain bike advocates would have thought of asking for bike only trails and access to more single track. How did you guys come up with that, its genius.
    So sorry that technology and consumer preference don't fit your highly specialized knowledge of trail rules and regulations.

    Trail access is yet another highly specialized collaborative process. While everyone is meeting for coffee for 5 years, the trails will be ridden more by new users.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Who are you directing your comments to?
    You are confusing pointing out the facts as eHatred. Nothing I said was against eBikes, just pointing out that those who are involved on Trail Management and who are currently working with land management are putting in the ground work to stop eBikes..... Maybe those who want more access for eBikes on trails should do the same thing?

    Your post is in poor form, if all you do is come here to point out that you do not like other peoples posts.... don't bother posting at all please. If you have something rational to say, then say it.
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    Sincerest apologies sir. I meant it as light sarcasm, as your posts are well reasoned and obviously lacking the "ehatred" you are sometimes accused of.

    Lesson learned;do not post pointless commentary without appropriate pointless context.

    No ill will meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    Sincerest apologies sir. I meant it as light sarcasm, as your posts are well reasoned and obviously lacking the "ehatred" you are sometimes accused of.

    Lesson learned;do not post pointless commentary without appropriate pointless context.

    No ill will meant.
    sorry, I totally missed the sarcasm.... I have been accused of that over and over again and it does start to get old.

    ;-)
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    Paid attention to the signs today. These are the trails on the Santa Monica mountains, and as discussed above, are controlled by different land managers. The signs don't say anything about prohibiting "motorized vehicles", just "motor vehicles".
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    This post is about citations but since it has grown to cover ehaters and trail use, I would like to offer a different perspective:
    I have been riding MTB for over twenty years on the local trails here in SoCal. Until recently, I was an EMTB hater until I rode one. It has rejuvenated the passion for riding I had as a younger man. For you younger riders, things hurt in places you never knew you had when you get older. My experience so far, being in my late 40s is my body doesn't feel so beat up after a long ride. I can ride my favorite downhills 3 times in the same day. I can set my assist to keep my heart rate at a manageable level that won't give my doctor a panic attack.
    Also, as a new dad and older rider, it allows me to ride trails I wouldn't have time to get to, because of parenting. So, I am riding my favorite trails more consistently. Although, the distance I need to ride to get to those trails means I have to use less assist on my EMTB. So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs. When I ride at sun up 6 AM when the trails are empty, occasionally I will get up to 10MPH on a climb if I am doing a fast ride. I have compared rides on my EMTB with my MTB and over all I am 4 MPH faster on my EMTB, which is the level of some fit riders in my area I ride with.
    Riding is different on an EMTB. I don’t take rests, I need less water, and my rides are faster covering the same distance. The bike is great on downhills, although heavier than my MTB. So the upper body gets a good workout wielding this beast down double blacks.
    Having ridden for many years, my trail etiquette is still the same. But I find the opposite for some MTB riders/ehaters. I ask politely to pass and they see what I am riding and block my way or give me a scoff look. I have to remind them I am not competing for any KOMS nor is there a podium waiting for us at the trail head and medals to awarded. I just want to ride my favorite trails get home to my child and off to work.
    When I approach hikers, it is the same routine as with my MTB. I slow down say thank you or sometimes stop and let them pass if it is a steep section.
    From my experience EMTB has breathed new life into my riding. I lost 15 pounds in the first month of riding the bike. I am riding more and having fun. There are a lot of EMTB riders on the trails and technology is advancing in electric assist across the board. Considering you can get an EMTB for the cost of a decent FS, it would be unlikely that sales will dry up. Not everyone buys from a shop. I doubt online sales come with a warning about trail use.
    Just some thoughts, and I’m sure ehaters will have at me!

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    This post is about citations but since it has grown to cover ehaters and trail use, I would like to offer a different perspective:
    I have been riding MTB for over twenty years on the local trails here in SoCal. Until recently, I was an EMTB hater until I rode one. It has rejuvenated the passion for riding I had as a younger man. For you younger riders, things hurt in places you never knew you had when you get older. My experience so far, being in my late 40s is my body doesn't feel so beat up after a long ride. I can ride my favorite downhills 3 times in the same day. I can set my assist to keep my heart rate at a manageable level that won't give my doctor a panic attack.
    Also, as a new dad and older rider, it allows me to ride trails I wouldn't have time to get to, because of parenting. So, I am riding my favorite trails more consistently. Although, the distance I need to ride to get to those trails means I have to use less assist on my EMTB. So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs. When I ride at sun up 6 AM when the trails are empty, occasionally I will get up to 10MPH on a climb if I am doing a fast ride. I have compared rides on my EMTB with my MTB and over all I am 4 MPH faster on my EMTB, which is the level of some fit riders in my area I ride with.
    Riding is different on an EMTB. I don’t take rests, I need less water, and my rides are faster covering the same distance. The bike is great on downhills, although heavier than my MTB. So the upper body gets a good workout wielding this beast down double blacks.
    Having ridden for many years, my trail etiquette is still the same. But I find the opposite for some MTB riders/ehaters. I ask politely to pass and they see what I am riding and block my way or give me a scoff look. I have to remind them I am not competing for any KOMS nor is there a podium waiting for us at the trail head and medals to awarded. I just want to ride my favorite trails get home to my child and off to work.
    When I approach hikers, it is the same routine as with my MTB. I slow down say thank you or sometimes stop and let them pass if it is a steep section.
    From my experience EMTB has breathed new life into my riding. I lost 15 pounds in the first month of riding the bike. I am riding more and having fun. There are a lot of EMTB riders on the trails and technology is advancing in electric assist across the board. Considering you can get an EMTB for the cost of a decent FS, it would be unlikely that sales will dry up. Not everyone buys from a shop. I doubt online sales come with a warning about trail use.
    Just some thoughts, and I’m sure ehaters will have at me!
    Don't go throwing logic and experience at this issue, you will ruin it for everyone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    This post is about citations but since it has grown to cover ehaters and trail use, I would like to offer a different perspective:
    I have been riding MTB for over twenty years on the local trails here in SoCal. Until recently, I was an EMTB hater until I rode one. It has rejuvenated the passion for riding I had as a younger man. For you younger riders, things hurt in places you never knew you had when you get older. My experience so far, being in my late 40s is my body doesn't feel so beat up after a long ride. I can ride my favorite downhills 3 times in the same day. I can set my assist to keep my heart rate at a manageable level that won't give my doctor a panic attack.
    Also, as a new dad and older rider, it allows me to ride trails I wouldn't have time to get to, because of parenting. So, I am riding my favorite trails more consistently. Although, the distance I need to ride to get to those trails means I have to use less assist on my EMTB. So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs. When I ride at sun up 6 AM when the trails are empty, occasionally I will get up to 10MPH on a climb if I am doing a fast ride. I have compared rides on my EMTB with my MTB and over all I am 4 MPH faster on my EMTB, which is the level of some fit riders in my area I ride with.
    Riding is different on an EMTB. I don’t take rests, I need less water, and my rides are faster covering the same distance. The bike is great on downhills, although heavier than my MTB. So the upper body gets a good workout wielding this beast down double blacks.
    Having ridden for many years, my trail etiquette is still the same. But I find the opposite for some MTB riders/ehaters. I ask politely to pass and they see what I am riding and block my way or give me a scoff look. I have to remind them I am not competing for any KOMS nor is there a podium waiting for us at the trail head and medals to awarded. I just want to ride my favorite trails get home to my child and off to work.
    When I approach hikers, it is the same routine as with my MTB. I slow down say thank you or sometimes stop and let them pass if it is a steep section.
    From my experience EMTB has breathed new life into my riding. I lost 15 pounds in the first month of riding the bike. I am riding more and having fun. There are a lot of EMTB riders on the trails and technology is advancing in electric assist across the board. Considering you can get an EMTB for the cost of a decent FS, it would be unlikely that sales will dry up. Not everyone buys from a shop. I doubt online sales come with a warning about trail use.
    Just some thoughts, and I’m sure ehaters will have at me!
    Similar experience to yours after one trail ride. So much fun, the limits are pushed way out there, and yet very easy to ratchet down and accommodate other trail users. The ad hoc class of rules can keep meeting for coffee, while I am enjoying my ride and the world passes them by.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    This post is about citations but since it has grown to cover ehaters and trail use, I would like to offer a different perspective:
    I have been riding MTB for over twenty years on the local trails here in SoCal. Until recently, I was an EMTB hater until I rode one. It has rejuvenated the passion for riding I had as a younger man. For you younger riders, things hurt in places you never knew you had when you get older. My experience so far, being in my late 40s is my body doesn't feel so beat up after a long ride. I can ride my favorite downhills 3 times in the same day. I can set my assist to keep my heart rate at a manageable level that won't give my doctor a panic attack.
    Also, as a new dad and older rider, it allows me to ride trails I wouldn't have time to get to, because of parenting. So, I am riding my favorite trails more consistently. Although, the distance I need to ride to get to those trails means I have to use less assist on my EMTB. So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs. When I ride at sun up 6 AM when the trails are empty, occasionally I will get up to 10MPH on a climb if I am doing a fast ride. I have compared rides on my EMTB with my MTB and over all I am 4 MPH faster on my EMTB, which is the level of some fit riders in my area I ride with.
    Riding is different on an EMTB. I don’t take rests, I need less water, and my rides are faster covering the same distance. The bike is great on downhills, although heavier than my MTB. So the upper body gets a good workout wielding this beast down double blacks.
    Having ridden for many years, my trail etiquette is still the same. But I find the opposite for some MTB riders/ehaters. I ask politely to pass and they see what I am riding and block my way or give me a scoff look. I have to remind them I am not competing for any KOMS nor is there a podium waiting for us at the trail head and medals to awarded. I just want to ride my favorite trails get home to my child and off to work.
    When I approach hikers, it is the same routine as with my MTB. I slow down say thank you or sometimes stop and let them pass if it is a steep section.
    From my experience EMTB has breathed new life into my riding. I lost 15 pounds in the first month of riding the bike. I am riding more and having fun. There are a lot of EMTB riders on the trails and technology is advancing in electric assist across the board. Considering you can get an EMTB for the cost of a decent FS, it would be unlikely that sales will dry up. Not everyone buys from a shop. I doubt online sales come with a warning about trail use.
    Just some thoughts, and I’m sure ehaters will have at me!
    Did you just refer to yourself as an elder mountain biker and in your late 40s in the same sentence? Come to over the hump on a tuesday and watch the 40-49 classes. They are the fastest age classes by far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Did you just refer to yourself as an elder mountain biker and in your late 40s in the same sentence? Come to over the hump on a tuesday and watch the 40-49 classes. They are the fastest age classes by far.

    I'm not 20 anymore and good for them. That makes me the first half of a success story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Did you just refer to yourself as an elder mountain biker and in your late 40s in the same sentence? Come to over the hump on a tuesday and watch the 40-49 classes. They are the fastest age classes by far.
    Jack Lallane pulled 70 boats on his 70th birthday for 2 miles. Do you go to every 70 year old and expect them to do the same? Sure, there are 50 year olds who will put 20 year old bikers to shame. But the majority of us, have pains (and/or responsibilities) that don't allow us to do what we did in our younger days. I'm 52 and proud to ride both my regular and e-mountain bikes. But I was more capable in my 20's (and more worry free).

    My health insurance deductible is now $7,500/year. Ya, I think about that when I see a really technical descent :-( In my 20's, I didn't think about this stuff because I had better coverage! :-)

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    Cool sales pitch going over similar points I'll hear from an electric motorcycle dealer about the benefits of riding electric motorcycles. No hate here, I'm glad you enjoy your new electric motorcycle, and encourage you to continue to ride in a way that is respectful of others yet also allows you to get rad and stay fit.

    I prefer riding mountain bikes myself. I can always tell a bicycle from an motorcycle because the bicycle has no motor of any sort.

    If my knees got too wrecked to pedal up I'd consider an electric motorcycle too probably.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    This post is about citations but since it has grown to cover ehaters and trail use, I would like to offer a different perspective:
    I have been riding MTB for over twenty years on the local trails here in SoCal. Until recently, I was an EMTB hater until I rode one. It has rejuvenated the passion for riding I had as a younger man. For you younger riders, things hurt in places you never knew you had when you get older. My experience so far, being in my late 40s is my body doesn't feel so beat up after a long ride. I can ride my favorite downhills 3 times in the same day. I can set my assist to keep my heart rate at a manageable level that won't give my doctor a panic attack.
    Also, as a new dad and older rider, it allows me to ride trails I wouldn't have time to get to, because of parenting. So, I am riding my favorite trails more consistently. Although, the distance I need to ride to get to those trails means I have to use less assist on my EMTB. So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs. When I ride at sun up 6 AM when the trails are empty, occasionally I will get up to 10MPH on a climb if I am doing a fast ride. I have compared rides on my EMTB with my MTB and over all I am 4 MPH faster on my EMTB, which is the level of some fit riders in my area I ride with.
    Riding is different on an EMTB. I don’t take rests, I need less water, and my rides are faster covering the same distance. The bike is great on downhills, although heavier than my MTB. So the upper body gets a good workout wielding this beast down double blacks.
    Having ridden for many years, my trail etiquette is still the same. But I find the opposite for some MTB riders/ehaters. I ask politely to pass and they see what I am riding and block my way or give me a scoff look. I have to remind them I am not competing for any KOMS nor is there a podium waiting for us at the trail head and medals to awarded. I just want to ride my favorite trails get home to my child and off to work.
    When I approach hikers, it is the same routine as with my MTB. I slow down say thank you or sometimes stop and let them pass if it is a steep section.
    From my experience EMTB has breathed new life into my riding. I lost 15 pounds in the first month of riding the bike. I am riding more and having fun. There are a lot of EMTB riders on the trails and technology is advancing in electric assist across the board. Considering you can get an EMTB for the cost of a decent FS, it would be unlikely that sales will dry up. Not everyone buys from a shop. I doubt online sales come with a warning about trail use.
    Just some thoughts, and I’m sure ehaters will have at me!
    Personally, I don't have an issue seeing e-bikes out there as long as they are only rolling in areas that are legal for them (motorized vehicles).
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RustySaguaro View Post
    I'm glad you enjoy your new electric motorcycle, and encourage you to continue to ride in a way that is respectful of others yet also allows you to get rad and stay fit.
    That is on point. At the end of the day it's the best tool for the widest grin. I wouldn't slap a motor on my DJ or on my DH. I damn sure don't ride my DH up Whistler or BB because I take a lift. There are some trails that the EMTB is just overkill and I ride my MTB. Although, when I have the EMTB as a tool to ride a section of trail that is a 2k climb and do it multiple times in the same day before work...I do consider that rad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    Although, when I have the EMTB as a tool to ride a section of trail that is a 2k climb and do it multiple times in the same day before work...I do consider that rad.
    Haha, just got back from riding up fern truck and down El Prieto before work. I get it! Will definitely be late to work because of it but priorities are important right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RustySaguaro View Post
    Haha, just got back from riding up fern truck and down El Prieto before work. I get it! Will definitely be late to work because of it but priorities are important right?
    Ha! Yes priorities. Nicely done.

  80. #80
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    I didn't have an issue with eBikes until I read a 40 something complain about being old. I know of too many people missing limbs that can still handle riding/running just fine. It just sounds ridiculous. I get my ass kicked by guys older than that, and I'm not racing Sport.

    But, I'll bow out of this conversation, it won't matter anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I didn't have an issue with eBikes until I read a 40 something complain about being old. I know of too many people missing limbs that can still handle riding/running just fine. It just sounds ridiculous. I get my ass kicked by guys older than that, and I'm not racing Sport.

    But, I'll bow out of this conversation, it won't matter anyway.
    No need to bow out of a conversation. All opinions matter even yours.

    It is great to hear that you have friends that have overcome so much. I'm sure your encouraging words were the catalyst for their achievements.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Confirmed with the Rangers at Santiago Oaks.....they are citing for Ebikes, as well as dogs off leash.
    I wish they'd cite in the whiting & luge areas too. I was doing a climb, and a dude in ebike (Commencal Meta) just zoomed right past me and a few other guys further up.
    AM -> 2018 Meta AM v4.2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I didn't have an issue with eBikes until I read a 40 something complain about being old. I know of too many people missing limbs that can still handle riding/running just fine. It just sounds ridiculous. I get my ass kicked by guys older than that, and I'm not racing Sport.

    But, I'll bow out of this conversation, it won't matter anyway.

    not everyone ages that same.. or at the same rate.. or whatever.. I'm in my late 40's, unfortunately i have arthritis in my knees, back, neck and hands.. For now I have been riding a pedal mtb bike.. but I'm worried a day may come where without a e-mtb bike I may no longer be able to ride at all.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    So I STILL GET PASSED! Nothing has changed! Lol.
    In fact, sometimes while on full assist a really fit rider is right on my ass. So the logic that EMTB's are too fast for the trails really isn't true. At my weight and fitness level the bike hits about 17 MPH on the flats and I ride around 7-8 MPH on most climbs.
    I am no hater, but I have some doubts about your statements I quoted there. Just last Monday I was passed by an eBiker like I was standing still on a moderate climb. He was testing out the new Intense Tazer and could not stop talking about how fast the thing was compared to a regular mountain bike.

    If I was riding that thing I am certain I too would be ripping uphill. If it were not for the huge price tag I would probably own one.

    Now whether or not it is "too fast for the trail" is up to the land Managers to decide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I am no hater, but I have some doubts about your statements I quoted there. Just last Monday I was passed by an eBiker like I was standing still on a moderate climb. He was testing out the new Intense Tazer and could not stop talking about how fast the thing was compared to a regular mountain bike.

    If I was riding that thing I am certain I too would be ripping uphill. If it were not for the huge price tag I would probably own one.

    Now whether or not it is "too fast for the trail" is up to the land Managers to decide.
    Well it really depends how you ride your bike. If you want to do distance or are into doing multiple downhills in one ride then you can't use full assist or you will run out of battery. There simply isn't enough battery to do 30 miles of climbing on full assist...at least at my weight 210 lbs. So yes people will pass me. Definetly getting passed often by cross bikes.

    But yes you can go up 19 mph depending on the grade of the hill, and rider weight. But going up steep singles it is unlikely one would reach that speed. Keep in ming the motor shuts off around 19.
    The bikes are so heavy and the gearing is such that you would be lucky to get it up to 20mph on the flats. By that time the motor shuts off and you are pedaling a 50lb bike.
    Your still working especially on a steep technical climb. My heart rate will get up to 170. But it really depends on the rider and what you are into.

    Oh I see your quote. Yes on full assist up hill on on a steep grade I have been past by cross riders. On flat sections on full assist I get passed regularly. On a medium grade full assist yes you can reach top speeds. But if you look at KOMS on STRAVA there are fast riders on MTB/CROSS.

  86. #86
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    I have 4 Analog bikes and 2 ebikes and just love cruising up hills at around 7mph on the ebikes. I am older and am now able to do two runs instead of one and am not spelled for the rest of the weekend. Use to hate them until I tried them, now I smile all the ride. And with the extra energy, I can now go down at a good pace (assist off of course) and don't crash. I rarely venture past level 1, but occasionally level 2 assist, and that is plenty. Level 5 is not needed and a waste of battery IMO. Complaining about ebikes is just like the snowboard complaints of years past, and I was one of those complaining!!!. I look forward to the new trend.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I am no hater, but I have some doubts about your statements I quoted there.
    Here is a statement fresh from the news, "are you aware that there is a perception" that you do not like ebikes. What a load of crap aye?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ULEWZ View Post
    Here is a statement fresh from the news, "there is a perception" that you do not like ebikes. What a load of crap aye?
    I see your point. The reason I posted my experience is that I read down this thread somewhere that EMTB riders aren't vocal on the forums. Probably because of the stigma of riding an assist bike. As a long time MTB rider I wanted to give my thoughts and simply offer some insight to riding EMTB.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I didn't have an issue with eBikes until I read a 40 something complain about being old. I know of too many people missing limbs that can still handle riding/running just fine. It just sounds ridiculous. I get my ass kicked by guys older than that, and I'm not racing Sport.

    But, I'll bow out of this conversation, it won't matter anyway.
    Exactly where I was at with it. If you want to ride an e-bike, just own up to it. I'm within a couple hundred days of 40 myself. I've had back surgery, knee surgery, pins/screws in my ankle and early onset arthritis. Those things do not stop me from riding, and they do not push me into riding an e-bike. After I was recovering from surgery, I simply did what I could. That turned out to be 3-5 mile rides with 200-300' of climbing. I did that happily for several months until I was able to do things that actually felt like a real ride.

    So... while I totally get the whole, the e-bike allows me to do things I otherwise couldn't arguement. I do not get the entitlement from those that are capable of doing normal rides (1-2 hours, 5-10 miles, 500-1500' of climbing) but would rather use an e-bike because it makes it easier. I'm going to go ahead and assume you didn't get into mountain biking because it was easy.

    I'll get off my soap box now, but to me, 80-90% of ebikers out there are riding e-bikes because they are just lazy and don't want to do the work to do the rides they want to do. Unfortunately, those people are going to ruin it for those that are truly disabled and aren't capable of doing any rides without e-assist.

    P.S. I should add that I take quite a bit of flack from my riding crew for being e-bike curious. I can see their place and I think they are quite fun and I think they still feel like a mountain bike... That being said, we have to play by the rules because those that are trying to get us forced out, use any example they can to prove that we will not follow rules and as such, cannot be self policed, nor worked with to control access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Exactly where I was at with it. If you want to ride an e-bike, just own up to it. I'm within a couple hundred days of 40 myself. I've had back surgery, knee surgery, pins/screws in my ankle and early onset arthritis. Those things do not stop me from riding, and they do not push me into riding an e-bike. After I was recovering from surgery, I simply did what I could. That turned out to be 3-5 mile rides with 200-300' of climbing. I did that happily for several months until I was able to do things that actually felt like a real ride.

    So... while I totally get the whole, the e-bike allows me to do things I otherwise couldn't arguement. I do not get the entitlement from those that are capable of doing normal rides (1-2 hours, 5-10 miles, 500-1500' of climbing) but would rather use an e-bike because it makes it easier. I'm going to go ahead and assume you didn't get into mountain biking because it was easy.

    I'll get off my soap box now, but to me, 80-90% of ebikers out there are riding e-bikes because they are just lazy and don't want to do the work to do the rides they want to do. Unfortunately, those people are going to ruin it for those that are truly disabled and aren't capable of doing any rides without e-assist.
    I have to get back to my day, but I am enjoying the fact that people are at least open to discussing this topic.
    Outside of injuries and onto laziness:

    I find that EMTB's are still a viable cardio workout. I do enjoy a good suffer fest and I find I don't always get that on a EMTB but I could if I dialed down the assist, but then I might as well ride my MTB. Which I still do depending on the trail.

    What has changed is that I don't drive to my weekday trail when riding my EMTB. So instead of a 10 mile loop I am riding a 23 mile loop. Which I ride 3 to 4 times a week.

    One of my favorite trails is 20 miles. On MTB that requires parking two cars at each trail head and shuttling. I can ride that on EMTB from my house to the trail head on 20 percent assist get up to 30-50 percent assist on the second half of the ride and save a couple bursts of 100 here and there for time sake. All in all my ride is roughly 35 miles. No way would full assist cover that distance. I burn 1500 calories and have an average heart rate of 145. Some of the technical climbs get up to 173BPM. There is some effort going on. Both these trails are around 2k to 3k feet of climbing at pretty significant grades.
    That ride I have done on my MTB and I was floored the whole day. I can take my kid for a hike after riding my EMTB. But yes I agree that things are headed that way for EMTB's. I really feel a deeper look into the issue would one day help relieve some animosity or fear of emerging technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Exactly where I was at with it. If you want to ride an e-bike, just own up to it. I'm within a couple hundred days of 40 myself. I've had back surgery, knee surgery, pins/screws in my ankle and early onset arthritis. Those things do not stop me from riding, and they do not push me into riding an e-bike. After I was recovering from surgery, I simply did what I could. That turned out to be 3-5 mile rides with 200-300' of climbing. I did that happily for several months until I was able to do things that actually felt like a real ride.

    So... while I totally get the whole, the e-bike allows me to do things I otherwise couldn't arguement. I do not get the entitlement from those that are capable of doing normal rides
    So, you're the guy who goes to the gym and tells everyone how they should work out. Great!

    And personally, I love mountain biking cause it's fun! All cycling is fun for me, that's why I have 6 bikes. And I get to choose how much I want to work out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post

    I'll get off my soap box now, but to me, 80-90% of ebikers out there are riding e-bikes because they are just lazy and don't want to do the work to do the rides they want to do. Unfortunately, those people are going to ruin it for those that are truly disabled and aren't capable of doing any rides without e-assist.
    [/I]
    I have had back and shoulder surgery as well but didn't want to taint the argument with my limitations because EMTB's shouldn't be and aren't reserved solely for disabled riders. Not everyone is going to race or go pro and some simply want to have fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    So, you're the guy who goes to the gym and tells everyone how they should work out. Great!

    And personally, I love mountain biking cause it's fun! All cycling is fun for me, that's why I have 6 bikes. And I get to choose how much I want to work out.
    So, you're the guy that brags on the internet and to his friends how many bikes he has and thinks that elevates the level of their opinion over others. Great!

    So... Ad Hominem arguments detract from an effective discussion.
    Your desire to turn to these sort of discussion tactics means that you've come to this thread to hear yourself talk. No one, gleaned anything useful from your post, nor did you advance the discussion on either side. You essentially wasted your own time, which is cool, I guess.

    If you took my comments as personal, then you have no where to look but within. I made no personal attacks, nor did I discredit riding e-bikes as a whole.

    This discussion isn't about people hiding behind stupid passive aggressive online forum post tag lines like "bikes are fun" and "cycling is neat". This is about what is currently legal in the orange county park system and how it affects access. Granted, forum posts should always be expected to stray off topic... but to hide behind passive aggressive comments shows the same sort of sense of entitlement that is pervasive in the crowd that thinks they have a right to ride e-bikes in the oc parks. It shows that you have no concept of the history of mtb access in this area and are really, just how recently we were granted official legal access in ANY of these parks... and how likely we are to lose it just as fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by nine_0 View Post
    I have had back and shoulder surgery as well but didn't want to taint the argument with my limitations because EMTB's shouldn't be and aren't reserved solely for disabled riders. Not everyone is going to race or go pro and some simply want to have fun. It is strange to me because if you ever go to Europe and ride you will see EMTB's out in force legally on the many trails.
    The difference is that europe doesn't have an extremely strong lobbying group called the sierra club. Europe also doesn't have the same civil lawsuit machine legal system that we have. I get it, I too like the idea of romping through any/all/some of the local parks on an e-bike. I grew up a motocross racer and due to constant injuries on a moto, I turned to mtb riding to keep my body functioning as I get older and still get my 2 wheeled kicks.

    But alas... We do not get to decide what we are able to do and where. We do not get to define if our type of fun is legal or not. I'm sure many moto riders would love to be able to ride moto's in the oc parks or all trails in the CNF, but alas, that type of fun is illegal.

    The plain and simple truth is we, as user group, are not entitled to access. This is not a, I pay my taxes so I should be able to do whatever the hell I want, issue. If you extend that logic, then why aren't moto's allowed in and why aren't jeeps allowed on the fire roads? While it isn't fair that one persons type of fun is allowed and another isn't, that's the country we live in and we have to play by the rules or risk to lose everything.

    The argument that people that can't race, or aren't pro, shouldn't be limited to accessing the same areas that more skilled, more fit people should access is bunk. The learning curve and entry barrier for mountain bikes for better or worse, keeps a progression in place that helps people learn and be better bike riders. Ebikes, can do exactly what you're saying, allow people to access places they never thought possible before. The ramification of this is, should those people, truly be out there accessing those areas with the experience that isn't required to get there.

    TLDR? Stop thinking about this in your bubble, and start thinking about this in all of our bubbles. Sure, you may ride an e-bike responsibly and you aren't "one of the bad guys". But that doesn't mean that the user groups that want us gone, won't use you as an example all the same. On the flip side, consider what sort of situation we have on our hands if riders with under 1 year of experience start heading 15ish miles and 5k vert into the CNF only to dump the bike and require a lift out. All of these drops into the pond have ripple effects we must stay mindful of.

  94. #94
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    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
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    Arguing over how old and creaky you need to be to ride an ebike, and how hard you're working, or not working is pointless, land managers, at least the ones I know could care less.

    The things they are concerned about are:

    What is the increase in speed? And how does that affect other user groups?
    How much farther are you riding? How many more laps for example.
    What are the emtbs going to be like in the future? Since current ones are way behind what the law allows.

    It's not just old farts putputting around, there are faster "legal" emtbs out there, and will be increasingly. Like this:

    FREY.BIKE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Di...ature=youtu.be

  95. #95
    Bicycles aren't motorized
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULEWZ View Post
    I have 4 Analog bikes and 2 ebikes and just love cruising up hills at around 7mph on the ebikes. I am older and am now able to do two runs instead of one and am not spelled for the rest of the weekend. Use to hate them until I tried them, now I smile all the ride. And with the extra energy, I can now go down at a good pace (assist off of course) and don't crash. I rarely venture past level 1, but occasionally level 2 assist, and that is plenty. Level 5 is not needed and a waste of battery IMO. Complaining about ebikes is just like the snowboard complaints of years past, and I was one of those complaining!!!. I look forward to the new trend.




    "Analog" is the stupidest mfin term I have ever heard used for a bicycle.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post

    I'll get off my soap box now, but to me, 80-90% of ebikers out there are riding e-bikes because they are just lazy and don't want to do the work to do the rides they want to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post

    If you took my comments as personal, then you have no where to look but within. I made no personal attacks, nor did I discredit riding e-bikes as a whole.
    You didn't offend me, you offended only 80-90% of e-bike riders. I've read many good arguments against e-bikes from people who actually understand them. Your arguments couldn't be further from the truth. Your ego appears to be the biggest issue. It's your problem to deal with it.

  97. #97
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    Ha, I got that from this forum. I agree with you on this, but only this (there is a perception...)

  98. #98
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    I got to demo an e-bike. Lol...it was actually pretty fun. It's not making me want to rush out and get one...but I can see its appeal. It's a very different riding experience.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    Your ego appears to be the biggest issue. It's your problem to deal with it.
    Indeed, we're both entrenched in our beleavies so this won't change. That being said, I think you're confused on what ego means or at least, who is the one justifying their own desires over the collective good of the group. I'm simply reacting to reality presented to me by involved mtb riders, land managers and park rangers.

    The irony is that I've actually spent some time riding e-bikes and I race for a bike shop that sells them. I understand them quite well, the problem is, I understand the lowest common entitled denominator in our society quite well also. You're not likely that person but the land managers don't care and see all of us as the same hive mind.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The things they are concerned about are:

    What is the increase in speed? And how does that affect other user groups?
    How much farther are you riding? How many more laps for example.
    What are the emtbs going to be like in the future? Since current ones are way behind what the law allows.
    Thank you for attempting to explain the only points worth discussing. I am really saddened by most ebike conversations, especially online. I started riding as a dirt jumper at Kenter in Santa Monica in 2011. I instantly fell in love with the culture I experienced, a culture I thought prevailed throughout the community. Guys were so welcoming, encouraging and just having a great time in the mountains. As it turns out mountain bikers are close minded dicks just like roadies and surfers and other elitests. This is actually heart breaking. WTF!?! How does a thread about ticketing, or any other ebike related post, become a public trail about the merits of ebikes full of vitriol? I thought we were way better than this. I guess I was wrong.

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