What we need to say to EBMUD.- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 50 of 50
  1. #1
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737

    What we need to say to EBMUD.

    We at the BTC are working towards access to EBMUD lands for bikes. We need to represent.

    Our Basic Approach

    Access by us to EBMUD land raises many very new questions for them. So often we have been defined by worst-case scenarios for any number of reasons; political, ignorance, popular belief, basic fears. Just look at what we see on this site.

    Getting up on our hind legs and railing against injustice has been shown time and again to be worse than useless. Such expression of frustration takes us out of the game, giving folks who oppose us yet more proof of our unsuitability.

    So, much of our success here will depend upon our ability to be reasonable, clear, and offer understanding in a way that EBMUD can take in and use for its own internal purposes to come to conclusions that support our access.

    Let's be smart and constructive. To that end I will publish some thoughts about our issues that may give us some traction. I hope some of you will share your ideas as well.

    First off, RSVP for the 8/20 meeting in Oakland at BTC Meetup:

    Want to see biking on EBMUD land? THEN COME TO THIS MEETING TO SHOW SUPPORT. - Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (Berkeley, CA) - Meetup


    Next, email/snailmail your Ward Director that you want access. Go here to find your ward, click on it and find their contact info:

    https://www.ebmud.com/about-us/board...board-members/


    Stay tuned.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-16-2015 at 08:18 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    201
    I can't attend the meeting (business trip) but am emailing my ward director. My main message is going to be that providing connections between existing trail networks improves cyclist safety.

  3. #3
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Thanks, Dave.

    I was at the REI 40th anniversary celebration in Berkeley and spoke to several people about the upcoming workshop. I hope I convinced people of the need for numbers and reaching out to the Ward Directors.
    I don't rattle.

  4. #4
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The fundamental issue in access is fairness: getting to it is the hard part.

    The main tripod of resistance to our presence from trail users who oppose our presence is expressed as concerns for:

    1. Personal safety.

    2. Harm to the environment.

    3. The preservation of the aesthetics of the trail experience.

    The first two factors employed against us, personal safety and harm to the environment, have been crucial for their resonance with issues of fear, obscuring fairness. That is why the appeal to fairness has never worked from the get-go. Just look at how law-and-order tactics are employed to manipulate an electorate.

    Both of these factors are used to prop-up factor 3, the preservation of the trail experience. They support a desire to retain these trail users' experience as unchanged. Importantly their preference for the status quo must be validated, just as preferring a flavor of ice cream; you cannot argue the point.

    It doesn't take long to describe how the first two factors against employed us, personal safety and harm to the environment, don't hold water. After 30 years of mountain biking cultivation and experience we have good scientific data from multiple sources that view the safety issue as enormously overstated and relative harm to the environment as unsupported by the facts.

    We embrace our own substantial sense of the trail experience, stewardship, and an investment in the future of our environment. So we actually share in a very powerful portion of factor 3; an aesthetics of the trails experience. Where we differ is in the preservation of the status quo.

    If we eliminate the power of factors 1 & 2, personal safety and harm to the environment, then we only have the issue of the preservation of the trail experience. How can anyone demand that their aesthetic standard preclude ours? Where does theirs have any viable presumption of superiority over ours?

    Now we are back to fairness.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-16-2015 at 01:31 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  5. #5
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Our effect on the environment and water quality.

    It is important to appreciate that EBMUD was very clear back in 1920 that it was not a park district. As such they have no recreational obligation as does EBRPD and the like. As such, for certain aspect of the EBMUD staff, fairness has nothing to do with anything.

    As I have suggested before these folks are really serious about their water. The more of these folks I meet the more I realize they are just like the people I went to school with throughout my life in California. Many are raised around the bay and even trespassed onto watershed lands as kids. They are people just like you and me who believe in what they do.

    I know these engineer types and data works wonders. I have been encouraged early on in this process to bring as much science to this discussion as possible. It is in that spirit that we work hard to include our studies on erosion. Those issues settled and supported with good studies and data take the pins out of a certain length of resistance to mountain bikes.

    The information on this topic is encyclopedic. This is where IMBA can be so useful. On their site they refer to dozens of such studies that are very clear about our effects on the environment, how our effect is far less than equestrians and on a par with hikers.

    As for behavior, hikers have not cornered the market on conformity. Any visit to our local parks will show shortcuts of all sorts made by Vibram soles in numbers far surpassing our 2.3s.

    Go here to review these and pick maybe one or two that you can use as the foundation for comments to your war directors or at our Thursday evening meeting on August 20 at 375 11th St. in Oakland at 6:30 PM.

    Go here:
    https://www.imba.com/resources/resea...ountain-biking

    And here's one I ran into. Just read the first page to get the gist, from U of Washington entitled Mountain biking a review of the ecological effects : a literature review for Parks Canada--National Office (Visitor Experience Branch) : final report . Go here:

    UW Libraries Search - mountain bikes quinn / mountain bikes quinn
    I don't rattle.

  6. #6
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The Third Rail: safety.

    Throwing safety in our face has been one of the favorite tools of the people who oppose us. As such you can imagine a water agency not looking forward to managing this issue. It can be a dealbreaker on the face of it.

    It is no secret that we have some clowns in our midst. As you look at this aspect of our community it becomes very clear that it's an extremely small segment of who we are. There is nowhere in our world where an entire community of hard-working and respectable people are held to task for the behavior of a very few. Further it doesn't allow for true accidents. Again, it is patently unfair.

    Yet, the responsibility for fear and conflict tossed upon us seems to stick and resonates as if it were true. We are painted with that same brush and for years it has been a hard thing to shake.

    In those same years, however, studies around the country and specifically with our own state park system showed that actual danger and injury are very rare events. In addition the East Bay Regional Park District has determined that most of the evidence about these damning charges are anecdotal and do not live up to much scrutiny.

    I can recall the first time I heard pushback from EBRPD in response to a complaint from a hiker in august of 2011. It was thrilling (maybe I need to get out more.) it went like this:

    “ I’m sorry to hear that you have experienced some of these incidents. With over 1,000 miles of trails in the regional park system, and most of them (fire roads and wide trails) open to cyclists, these incidents do occur from time to time; yet we actually have very few hiker-biker accidents or even reports of incidents. And while I believe that most cyclists are courteous and respectful of other trail users, it is, unfortunately, the few exceptions that tend to stand out.”

    Over the years I have collected information from the parks and staff on this issue and shared it with the community. These events, in the end, or wildly overstated and have their power in the fear that they generate. Again I will use some shorthand here and refer you to our good friends at Access 4 Bikes who have formatted this information. Go here to see some nicely assembled thoughts on safety:

    Safety - Access4Bikes
    I don't rattle.

  7. #7
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The Red Herring: Conflict

    Conflict is tricky. Like a preference for chocolate or vanilla a fundamental belief about what belongs where is hard to manage. As a matter of taste it cannot be argued. Secondly, the issue of conflict is used to our disadvantage as if it were some prima facie statement of the way of the universe that proves we do not belong.

    Using conflict as an issue succeeds against us by virtue of us being out-positioned historically: a presumption from the grandfathered presence of walkers and equestrians. That is a hard thing to shake because it represents thousands of years of how our culture understands mobility, power, or social position.

    At the same time, though, we are a democratic society awkwardly shedding some embarrassing old-school values about who has a right to what. The folks who currently control access to trails don't want to admit that their presence reflects a simple sense of social status priorities.

    In our democratic nation believing oneself to hold such values is embarrassing. The only way to manage that is with denial. Two legs of the anti-mountain bike stool, personal safety and harm to the environment, have gone a long ways to mask that foible both from the world in general and those self-same folks who oppose us.

    Conflict is mostly a matter of attitude. Actual conflict is statistically rare so it is hard to address conflict when actual conflict happens. Land managers know that they can't be everywhere to intervene. In that there's-never-a-cop-around-when-you-need-one sort of thinking it is impractical. Second I am not sure that there is a solution in the moment akin to the futility of cops dealing with domestic disputes.

    Land use districts have come to terms with the idea of conflict as responding to education. This is an effort to get ahead of the problem. However, as most teachers know, some people just do not want to be educated, thank you very much. Given that, managers may allow things to work themselves out and let stresses dissipate.

    Further efforts are made to separate groups. In Crockett Hills, for example, the trails that we like to ride are 4 miles and 800 feet of climbing away from the parking lot. separating user groups. The biggest complaint the supervisors have in that venue has to do with the full parking lots that were empty before the trails were built.

    The other solution, and I am sure that we can all get behind this one, is to make more trails and open more trails to spread everything out.

    In the context of the work we are doing here we are looking for fairly remote areas to be open to us. The secondary effect is that other venues will be less pressed.
    I don't rattle.

  8. #8
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Low-Threat Access to the Land

    When I was a kid EBMUD lands were totally closed. Late in the 60s we snuck into Briones and San Pablo reservoir to fish. Of course we got busted a time or two but the guys are really cool. I know EBMUD guys who used to do that, too. Fair enough.

    Since then access to water-related activities on EBMUD lands has developed. San Pablo Reservoir stocks catfish and trout for fishing, boat rental, food, concessions. This didn't happen overnight and the growth of this access has been careful.

    Most importantly people are actually being allowed on the actual wet really big old sacred reservoir water. People and their boats actually touch it. They control the time of day for access and the kind of propulsion used to power the boats around the reservoir, but it is in the reservoir. Check this out from their site:

    “San Pablo’s 6-lane boat launch facility is open daily for motor boats, kayaks and canoes. All boats must be inspected before launch to prevent Quagga Mussels from entering EBMUD waters. To further preserve the high water quality, only four-cycle engines and a minimum of 2-star rated motors are allowed on privately owned motorized boats. No paddle boards or personal watercraft are allowed at San Pablo.”

    Then there is Lafayette Reservoir.......

    What we are looking at for mountain bikers is dirt roads that are, by and large, nowhere near any actual water: Pinole, East of Inspiration Point, Skyline Trail. Cull Canyon and San Leandro watershed are exceptions but horse and hikers are allowed there. We have discussed the concept of erosive effects of mountain biking vis-a-vis of the hiking and equestrian use and found this to be a non-issue.

    A great challenge that EBMUD has at San Pablo Reservoir is dealing with cattle that land managers refer to as a mouth and four stomachs. EBMUD is currently working a program whereby runoff near San Pablo Reservoir that sees the effects of cattle manure is filtered through sacks of fungus that filter out the toxic qualities before they get into the water. Pretty cool I think.

    In the context of all of that, though, I fail to see the problem with bikes. Studies on erosion and contamination suggest that the most profound affect of trails occurs when they are first cut and when they are wearing in. All things being equal, hikers, bikes, equestrians, barely dent that issue after the trails are worn in. These fire roads have been there forever.

    What we are looking for are remote connectors in the Bay Area Ridge Trail that total about 13 miles. Many of those areas have no water in them at all. It is hard to see a problem here.

    However, it is important to acknowledge the concern. As I have said these people are serious about their water quality and the use of their resources.
    I don't rattle.

  9. #9
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Thoughts anyone?
    I don't rattle.

  10. #10
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Thoughts anyone?
    You know I'm watching and reading. I feel lately the anti's have been given far too much legitimacy and thus the access movement seems to be stagnating. The fact there's a chance at something is good. I want to see some accords and access given and the chance to have a Demo area over here for us to learn from, grow from, and of course, use. I wish you guys luck in this. This area, and honestly, California as a whole, has a very long way to go to begin to impress me.
    Last edited by Obi; 08-17-2015 at 10:05 PM.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    6

    EBMUD meeting

    Mike, thanks for your work organizing mtb presence at this meeting. Meeting details for this thread: EBMUD Watershed Master Plan, Thursday, August 20 at 6:30 p.m. at EBMUD’s Oakland office at 375 11th Street, Oakland, CA. Second floor.

    I agree with you EBMUD land represents huge untapped potential for riding on our nearby hills. Just up Claremont to the Fish Ranch area, for example, and behind Nimitz.
    You mentioned that EBMUD land was completely off-limits a few decades ago so I wonder what was going on? Was it only grazing or was there horse access (Grizzly Peak Stables didn't have access?).
    If so, then how can they claim to be so totally concerned with water quality above all? Erosion from these uses is substantial, not to mention all the manure. Plus motorboats? Sheesh. What are the grand kids of those 1970s horse riders up to? If they're up there chances are they're on bikes!

    It's just a matter of time (and thanks to advocacy like yours) just thinking about the geography -- it seems like by 2030 our kids should be able to bike on well-engineered trails dropping off the back of Fish Ranch, Vollme
    r, and Inspiration Point. Separate trails might be the answer here. It removes the issue of conflict / trail experience. A few efficient flow trails along the lines of Crockett Hills could really change the experience for local riders. Good trail design can providing interesting rides, good sight lines, limited speeds (or directional trails) and of course minimal erosion.
    I know from Berkeley it would give us something to do from the city that would include a good workout (climbing up) a thrilling descent and then a climb back to the ridge. A nice ride. A well designed system would include stuff to entertain the bigger bikes that would shuttle as well.

    In short, if they already allow grazing, horse riding, and motorboats then their arguments for protecting water quality and pristine natural landscapes are pretty weak. If it's about preserving a tranquil trail experience then I can respect that -- but then we should seriously consider new trails. The existing trails aren't really that great anyway but the terrain is very promising.
    I'll try to make the meeting but it's a busy week. Nico

  12. #12
    middle ring single track
    Reputation: Moe Ped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Thoughts anyone?
    While doing background research on an issue at Coe I stumbled on this EBRPD document: Narrow trail study FINAL

    Maybe this paper has been shared here before; I thought it was quite comprehensive and well-balanced for an internally-produced agency document.

    I'm not sure what relationship (if any) EBRPD has with EBMUD (enlighten me?) but this might have some good talking points when dealing with the latter.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  13. #13
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Quote Originally Posted by ntripcevich View Post
    Mike, thanks for your work organizing mtb presence at this meeting. Meeting details for this thread: EBMUD Watershed Master Plan, Thursday, August 20 at 6:30 p.m. at EBMUD’s Oakland office at 375 11th Street, Oakland, CA. Second floor.

    I agree with you EBMUD land represents huge untapped potential for riding on our nearby hills. Just up Claremont to the Fish Ranch area, for example, and behind Nimitz.
    You mentioned that EBMUD land was completely off-limits a few decades ago so I wonder what was going on? Was it only grazing or was there horse access (Grizzly Peak Stables didn't have access?).
    If so, then how can they claim to be so totally concerned with water quality above all? Erosion from these uses is substantial, not to mention all the manure. Plus motorboats? Sheesh. What are the grand kids of those 1970s horse riders up to? If they're up there chances are they're on bikes!

    It's just a matter of time (and thanks to advocacy like yours) just thinking about the geography -- it seems like by 2030 our kids should be able to bike on well-engineered trails dropping off the back of Fish Ranch, Vollme
    r, and Inspiration Point. Separate trails might be the answer here. It removes the issue of conflict / trail experience. A few efficient flow trails along the lines of Crockett Hills could really change the experience for local riders. Good trail design can providing interesting rides, good sight lines, limited speeds (or directional trails) and of course minimal erosion.
    I know from Berkeley it would give us something to do from the city that would include a good workout (climbing up) a thrilling descent and then a climb back to the ridge. A nice ride. A well designed system would include stuff to entertain the bigger bikes that would shuttle as well.

    In short, if they already allow grazing, horse riding, and motorboats then their arguments for protecting water quality and pristine natural landscapes are pretty weak. If it's about preserving a tranquil trail experience then I can respect that -- but then we should seriously consider new trails. The existing trails aren't really that great anyway but the terrain is very promising.
    I'll try to make the meeting but it's a busy week. Nico
    At a Board meeting Director Coleman asked what would keep cyclist from wandering (italics mine) into sensitive areas.

    Knowing the EBMUD penchant for protecting its water I chose to address the idea that our requests were remote for such areas.

    The subtext, which I avoided, was the "wandering." that means going off-trail, creating new trails and the like.

    I'm afraid i was unprepared with convincing description of a method for that.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-18-2015 at 09:06 AM.
    I don't rattle.

  14. #14
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    While doing background research on an issue at Coe I stumbled on this EBRPD document: Narrow trail study FINAL

    Maybe this paper has been shared here before; I thought it was quite comprehensive and well-balanced for an internally-produced agency document.

    I'm not sure what relationship (if any) EBRPD has with EBMUD (enlighten me?) but this might have some good talking points when dealing with the latter.
    They are neighbors with different missions and common problems. EBRPD often manages portions of contiguous lands where proximate to theirs and where they are conduits for trails and such.

    It is this relationship we hope to utilize for the Skyline trail.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-18-2015 at 11:29 AM.
    I don't rattle.

  15. #15
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I'm afraid i was unprepared with convincing description of a method for that.
    Try responding with the following, "Trust, honesty, and accountability, the same holds true for how we keep our jobs, so it should go with reason that any "wandering" can immediately be addressed by both EBMUD and the community of riders. We have vested interest to police ourselves and report anything amiss.".

  16. #16
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I'm all for enforcement and self-reporting. On one hand, that issue leads to another concern, that of a sense of extra workload for EBMUD that they don't have to deal with now. That is common on a land managing institutional level. On the other, there is a portion of our community that supports "wandering." One of our worst examples is in Briones, so close to EBMUD lands.

    It just isn't a simple as I would like, that is for sure.
    I don't rattle.

  17. #17
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Here's an article in the CC Times on the issue complete with photo of two geezer mountain bikers:

    EBMUD eyes easing ban on mountain bike access to its watershed trails - ContraCostaTimes.com

    Reporter Dennis Cuff is pretty even handed and presents the issue well.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #18
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Permit Support

    The permit process is something that mountain bikers are accustomed to support. Locally 2 specific venues that expect permit cooperation are:

    1) China Camp in San Rafael at $25 per year.
    2) The Boy Scout’s Camp Tamarancho in Fairfax at $35 per year.

    Ernie Stanton of the Friends of China Camp reports that of their total passes, which include hikers and cyclists, approximately 70% are mountain bikers. He says, "the bottom line is the mountain biking community pays more than its "fair share" of the fees required to keep up the operations and maintenance of the park as hikers have the "I'm just walking, so why should I pay" outlook."

    Ernie suggests close to 50% total compliance to the permit process. "Recently while repairing the credit card reader several bikers approached with credit card in-hand ready to pay. From their movement and actions, I could see that they weren't just paying because someone happened to be there (I wasn't even wearing a State Park name-tag), but were going to pay regardless of "enforcement." As one of the primary people responsible to the State of California for the financial viability of China Camp, that kind of interaction with visitors is heartening, because it shows how bikers are understanding how paying the trail use fee is the "normal" thing to do."

    Camp Tamarancho serves a mountain biking community. We were unable to get financial data due to principles on summer vacation. However Danny Forer who manages communication and permit compliance suggests that 75% of riders have an annual or a day pass.

    Mountain bikers understand that both of these venues depend upon permit fees to sustain trails and infrastructural development, as well as maintenance and supervision. Both venues welcome the skilled volunteer participation of the mountain biking community to sustain them. And mountain bikers know how to make trails.
    I don't rattle.

  19. #19
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Supporting the Trails

    Mountain bikers are all about trails. The historically limited access, variety, and character of trails add to the richness and appreciation of their value.

    Many of the trails in our local hills are remnants of early conduits for ranches for horse-powered vehicles. These, adapted over time for use by gasoline-powered vehicles serving institutional usage, have also been used as emergency access for fire management by four-wheel-drive vehicles.

    None of these roads were crafted with any sense for sustainability or use by human or human-powered means. By necessity the hiking, equestrian, and mountain biking communities have worked very hard to develop a new appreciation for the necessities stated above.

    Mountain bikers, through agencies such as the BTC, REI, EBRPD, VoCal, Clif Bar, and City of Oakland, and at venues such as Camp Tamarancho, China Camp, Mt. Diablo, Rockville, Napa Skyline, Annadel, and Joaquin Miller Park have developed a remarkable sense of craft concerning trails.

    Considerations for sustainability, durability, drainage, gradient, and applications concerning usage for all types of trail users, have evoked a community with a unique attitude about supporting trails.

    For example, since 2010 the BTC has organized the mountain biking community to contribute nearly 2800 man-hours in support of the development of the new trails out at Crocket Hills Regional Park. Participants have included general mountain bikers and members of the NorCal high school cycling teams from Albany High School, Berkeley High School, El Cerrito High School, Miramonte High School, Monte Vista High School, Contra Costa Composite and the Oakland Composite team.

    These young athletes have had their appreciation for trails and trail usage developed within the traditions that we share as mountain bikers. This is the next generation of trail users. Their fundamentals have been defined by what we have learned and overlaid upon an essential experience of our open spaces. The NorCal high school experience has been one of engaging the adolescent effervescence and a sense of responsibility for sharing, consideration, all the while reveling in nature's bounty.

    These works over 28 years have evolved in tandem with the substantial development of institutions such as the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA) and, more locally, Hillride and Jim Jacobson to help construct trails or improve existing trails for utility and improve watershed management.

    In the last 5 years the BTC has been responsible for rerouting and reconstructing trails within Joaquin Miller Park in the City of Oakland system. These reroutes have been effected to allow the reestablishment of natural drainages of the headwaters of the Palos Colorado's Creek Watershed. In addition the BTC has reconstructed bridges to span these drainages allowing the potential for native trout to reestablish their spawning areas. Perhaps as importantly, these new trails appreciate the needs of all trail users and enrich the experience within the park.

    These trail work events are well attended and represent thousands of man-hours. The nationally renowned REI Co-op has extended its sponsorship program in support of the efforts for the last 5 years in recognition of the fact that we "not only contribute to the trails we ride but for all trail users."
    I don't rattle.

  20. #20
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748
    Good article but that guy to the left of Udkow w/ the funny colored shades looks a bit senile? Might want to put Mr. RubyShadez in touch with my Father since he'll be in town this Saturday. IMHO

  21. #21
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    You bastid. Mrs. Rocky is too good for you.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-19-2015 at 11:55 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  22. #22
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    You bastid. Mrs. Rocky is too good for you.
    Yeppers, but we make awesome kids that deserve trail access so I still gotta pay attention and help out as much as possible with this sort of topic.
    Last edited by Obi; 08-20-2015 at 12:49 AM.

  23. #23
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Your support for NorCal, specifically my El Cerrito Team, goes back to 2004, well before the gleam in your eye. It is huge to see you still here. Huge props.
    I don't rattle.

  24. #24
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748
    Aww, thanks.

  25. #25
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    What these Trails Provide Cyclists

    In this local's lifetime finding my Keds at the top of Shell Ridge or my hiking boots dodging a rattlesnake rustling through the dry Spanish oats above Happy Valley with the smell of sage in August mark my experience. I could never leave this place; believe me, I've tried. This is my home.

    What EBMUD access provides is immersion in the rolling hills and quiet paces of our little portion of the Pacific tectonic ridge. The Bay, Buckeye and Oak appointing the machined roads and animal trails of our local haunts spell an emergent relief from computer screens and bumper-to-bumper life. That a quick change of clothing, some air in the tires, and a little lube on the chain sets the stage for promise. An hour of climbing to the ridge-top to achieve Pacific breezes that whistle through old barbed wire and coyote brush is beyond hope and yet right outside one's door.

    Access provides epic point-to-point rides encompassing volumes called Franklin Canyon or Briones or Las Trampas from the Great Valley to the mud flats of the eastern San Francisco Bay in a way never imagined by Highway 24 or 680.

    It means going from here to there in your mind, emerging from the plane of Concord on a trail that winds up alongside the hill and disappears. And that you could get from here to there on something besides an asphalt road holds a very certain charm.

    Access creates safe routes, alternatives to rush-hour asphalt on fast thoroughfares. It presents alternatives to buses and cars between homes and occupations.

    Access provides connections and continuity from one open space to another embracing traditions that span thousands of aboriginal years for the Ohlone. It evokes our contact with the land and defines its value.

    Access unblocks communications of an emergent Ridge Trail vision around the San Francisco Bay area, one of the greatest estuary systems in the world. It provides the opportunity to experience this natural wonder from infinite perspectives unique and at once surprising amidst a population of 8 million.

    It creates opportunities for our young naturalists, our teen athletes, our young men and women, to experience some of the greatest land in the world from a discovered regard. It redefines what is "home" through their own connections, and gives us measure for greatness and value as they experience the world. It binds our youth to us, even as they move away from us, to bring them back with their children in hand.
    I don't rattle.

  26. #26
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The Function of Horror

    Mountain biking is a relatively new experience in the natural venue. Traditional usage of open spaces by hikers and equestrians contain the benefit of thousands of years of usage and deep cultural value. In the late 70s and early 80s the emergence of mountain biking was simply associated with motorcycles by many who could understand it in no other way. Fair enough; no one knew anything for certain.

    The fresh and unqualified interaction with mountain bikes suggested danger and further that mountain bikers were characterologically indifferent to users who seemed more predisposed to value the natural setting. Equestrians and hikers argued, successfully, that mountain bikers were an intrusion and a disturbance to a traditional natural experience as they defined and embodied it.

    The suggestion of dangerous intrusive machines and thoughtless riders resonated deeply, and obscured issues of fair access. It is in that context of fear that mountain bikes were deflected away from access to open spaces. These suggestions hold sway to this day and underpin the political power of these oft-repeated horror stories about mountain bikers; these are the tools for the control of open space.

    In the 40 years the developing mountain biking culture holds a substantial place with the rest of society and are the second largest user group of open spaces. Mountain bikers are parents, homeowners, business owners, doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs. We occupy positions with all the open space agencies, civic groups, schools, and neighborhood councils. Yet we have always been at the heart of society.

    The accumulation of 40 years of data concerning the actual behavior of mountain bikers and their impact on other trail users confronts the old resonant horror stories and assumptions. The 2012 California State Parks Trail Use and Conflict Study concludes that the majority of literature does not provide empirical data regarding the presence, extent, or attributes of user conflict or incidents. Further they determined there is a low incidence of accidents or injuries compared to the extent of perceived conflict and complaints about conflict.

    I have a 2011 East Bay Regional Park District response to a complaint about mountain bikers that the incidence of such events was regrettable but very rare in their 1000 miles of trails. In the 2012 EBRPD Master Plan mountain bikers were embraced as a part of their Healthy Parks Healthy People initiative and new policies were invoked to promote increased access and the creation of trails to serve this valued community.

    Insurance data shows that horseback riding danger is estimated to be the same as that for motorcyclists accounting for over 100 deaths and 80,000 emergency room visits per year. What this says is that the old accusations are shown to be false. Yet they still resonate and the stories are repeated well beyond their statistical value.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-20-2015 at 02:04 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  27. #27
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The BTC Meetup shows 17 attending and I know of 4 more. We will also have folks from Bike East Bay, REI, NorCal/NICA.

    I have prepared handouts of our arguments and my biermeister will locate post-event location.
    I don't rattle.

  28. #28
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Tonight's meeting had about 100 people in attendance, including 4 staff and 3 directors. Approximately 70 of the people who came were mountain bikers. Very significantly we had about 20 to 25 people from the NorCal teams from Oakland composite, Berkeley high school, and Albany high school in attendance.

    There were 12 people directly involved with BTC and the remainder were mountain bikers I had seen at a variety of events and several I knew from nowhere.

    The meeting was introduced in terms of a Watershed Master Plan that had to consider sensitive species, maintaining environments, managing forests, and all that EBMUD stuff. They approached issues concerning opening recreational access very cautiously. Marguerite Young, whose son is on the Oakland composite team, appealed to everyone to speak to their interests as opposed to creating contentious interaction. This was the letter of the day and set the tone for the meeting.

    A total of approximately 45 people spoke. The Sierra Club came out very quickly against making any changes at all through Stormin' Norman Laforce. If it weren't for the fact that we needed to listen respectfully and smile we would have laughed him off the stage. He is thoroughly ridiculous. The lady that followed him from the Sierra Club, a former director of EBMUD, Ms.Burke, was equally ridiculous. They have no idea at all.

    By and large even the people who would not have supported access to cycling suggested that absolute closure was unreasonable. They were simply concerned against all of the usual horror stories about mountain bikers, the need for enforcement, and the challenges that these created. I think that these were all fair criticisms.

    Mary Selkirk, a former director who voted to exclude mountain bikers in 1996, spoke of regretting her decision as patently unfair. This was huge. She had real gravitas.

    However the greatest proportion of people who spoke suggested the value of mountain biking especially in terms of generating good health and good trail use practices in our youth. The contact with nature and our tendency to be stewards, the need for unblocking closures that inhibit the entirety of the Bay Area Ridge Trail. People spoke in terms of hoping for flexibility and the potentials for evaluating as things unfolded.

    There were a few people who were very concerned about the dangers that mountain bikers bring to particularly narrow sections of trail. That however fit in considerations that many people expressed about the challenges of confrontation on narrow trails. Again, very reasonable concerns. I love our mountain bikers but, yeah, they can be total meatheads when it's all about their ride. Come on. Deny it. That said BTC Prez Mike Udkow did confront the thinking that paints all mountain bikers with the same brush.

    At the end of the meeting we spoke with a number of the staff and directors and other people in the room and people were pretty please about the openness and the sharing that occurred. Some of us are nutty as a fruitcake and as clueless as can be but still we did very well.

    I came away from this meeting changing my sense that we had a 60% chance of some success to 65%.

    I will wait until next week to touch bases with people at EBMUD to give them time to process things both between their ears and amongst each other. However, I could not be more pleased with our presence, what we said, and the ambient support in the room for some sort of opening.
    I don't rattle.

  29. #29
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Tonight's meeting had about 100 people in attendance, including 4 staff and 3 directors. Approximately 70 of the people who came were mountain bikers. Very significantly we had about 20 to 25 people from the NorCal teams from Oakland composite, Berkeley high school, and Albany high school in attendance.

    There were 12 people directly involved with BTC and the remainder were mountain bikers I had seen at a variety of events and several I knew from nowhere.

    The meeting was introduced in terms of a Watershed Master Plan that had to consider sensitive species, maintaining environments, managing forests, and all that EBMUD stuff. They approached issues concerning opening recreational access very cautiously. Marguerite Young, whose son is on the Oakland composite team, appealed to everyone to speak to their interests as opposed to creating contentious interaction. This was the letter of the day and set the tone for the meeting.

    A total of approximately 45 people spoke. The Sierra Club came out very quickly against making any changes at all through Stormin' Norman Laforce. If it weren't for the fact that we needed to listen respectfully and smile we would have laughed him off the stage. He is thoroughly ridiculous. The lady that followed him from the Sierra Club, a former director of EBMUD, Ms.Burke, was equally ridiculous. They have no idea at all.

    By and large even the people who would not have supported access to cycling suggested that absolute closure was unreasonable. They were simply concerned against all of the usual horror stories about mountain bikers, the need for enforcement, and the challenges that these created. I think that these were all fair criticisms.

    Mary Selkirk, a former director who voted to exclude mountain bikers in 1996, spoke of regretting her decision as patently unfair. This was huge. She had real gravitas.

    However the greatest proportion of people who spoke suggested the value of mountain biking especially in terms of generating good health and good trail use practices in our youth. The contact with nature and our tendency to be stewards, the need for unblocking closures that inhibit the entirety of the Bay Area Ridge Trail. People spoke in terms of hoping for flexibility and the potentials for evaluating as things unfolded.

    There were a few people who were very concerned about the dangers that mountain bikers bring to particularly narrow sections of trail. That however fit in considerations that many people expressed about the challenges of confrontation on narrow trails. Again, very reasonable concerns. I love our mountain bikers but, yeah, they can be total meatheads when it's all about their ride. Come on. Deny it. That said BTC Prez Mike Udkow did confront the thinking that paints all mountain bikers with the same brush.

    At the end of the meeting we spoke with a number of the staff and directors and other people in the room and people were pretty please about the openness and the sharing that occurred. Some of us are nutty as a fruitcake and as clueless as can be but still we did very well.

    I came away from this meeting changing my sense that we had a 60% chance of some success to 65%.

    I will wait until next week to touch bases with people at EBMUD to give them time to process things both between their ears and amongst each other. However, I could not be more pleased with our presence, what we said, and the ambient support in the room for some sort of opening.
    Thank you very much Sir. I really appreciate you efforts and it is quite funny to hear about the Sierra Club speaking out against the national policy that they all agree to:

    Off Road Use of Bicycles | Sierra Club

    I know that these things can go either way but I will try and donate to the BTCEB again in the future. Again, I really appreciate the effort.

    Thank you Mike!!!

  30. #30
    mtb'er
    Reputation: Empty_Beer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,073
    Sounds like a good turn out. Glad to hear the youth riders were there. Thanks for the recap! Good luck!!!

  31. #31
    J-Flo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,684
    Mike, thanks again for alerting us all to this meeting. I think you played a major role in starting the effort that led to such a strong turnout. I'm glad I was able to come and speak.

    The three Board members present, including John Coleman (a director since 1990, who expressed both openness to change and skepticism about safety concerns) were quite attentive as were the senior watershed staff members present. There was an inevitability of change in the air. Although the form and length of time it will take are not clear, change for the better is coming.

  32. #32
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,589
    A lot if it is just politics. Having a great turn out should help. Those people are elected after all. Thanks to all that showed up.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  33. #33
    jrm
    jrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,233
    Thanks to you Mike and those that attended. Do you know if the Draft Watershed Mgmt Plan available for public consumption?

  34. #34
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I have no idea if it is available; my focus has been very specific to our issues.
    I don't rattle.

  35. #35
    Natty Dread
    Reputation: Flat Pedals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    415
    It was cool to witness the pro bike access crowd applause being by far the loudest in attendance. It was also cool to hear the EBMUD board say this was the most public participation they had seen at a meeting. While I didn't speak was happy to be a part of the overwhelming presence of pro bike access folks at this meeting. That show of support cannot be ignored.

  36. #36
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    The process has never been clear. As such, what we needed to do at the meeting was simply represent. Some spoke, others were there to witness and support. And thanks to all who wrote letters.

    It's all about showing up.

    We're not done yet.

    Stay tuned...
    I don't rattle.

  37. #37
    Oaktown Honkey on Strava
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,904
    One thing I noticed while speaking, was how bored, the board looked. I think I was able to keep comments under one minute, tried to keep it positive. This was the first meeting I have gone to, and using MTBR to alert us, is what works best for me, as I have no FACEBOOK acct. if you have not gone to a meeting, it really makes you appreciate how much people like Berkeley Mike, and all the others, have done. Interesting, but sort of boring, and not so easy if you work full time, commute, family obligations, etc. I really applaud the work you people have done. So GO TO A MEETING. Just do it!

  38. #38
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Actually they are just listening to a lot while trying not to influence what is being said. It is tedious. They are not filled with the adrenaline we have driving us to the preoccupation of being meaningful. They are waiting for message so they can understand. Not all directors are like that but the 3 we drew are pretty sound.

    I found myself not wanting to applaud so as not to influence understanding. I greeted people, thanked them, handed out my papers and stuff, met new folks.

    I have found myself not looking so much for people who are pro-mtb but people who are clear thinkers and level-headed. That is where our power comes from.

    You sat through all of the evening. Thanks for that. But what you saw was that sincerity, not histrionics, carry the day.

    It is all in how we manage our differences.

    I can't tell you how many I know who won't come here to participate. They don't think it represents them or people are just too mean. They don't want to have to deal with the mtbr thing. And there is a thing.

    Yet there is a love of our sport here. And you can't ignore that. But our vigor and how we manage that is illusive. And how do we share such an understanding with folks who have no idea what we are about?

    So we look for people who will listen.

    What they heard is our desire and respect. What they heard is that folks had concerns for how we behave. They also heard that many of those folks believed that a total ban is not their preference.

    One of the Directors was disappointed that Stormin' Norman of the Sierra Club did not stay to listen. An important part of the Directors message, intended or not, is that EMBUD is concerned for the folks who use the lands by foot or hoof. I think she saw how possible our access could be but that there are so many folks who will be very wary or disappointed. It is a precious thing. Had they been here they might have been able to decide for themselves.

    So the event was confounding in its demands of folks who spend their days guaranteeing lifetimes of good water and husbanding the faith of the folks who use the lands now, rightly or wrongly.

    This is all hard for a reason. So what looks "board" is simply an abiding patience, duty, thinking, and feeling.
    I don't rattle.

  39. #39
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,589
    The process is so slow that it weeds out most advocates. Secret is to enjoy what we have now while working on the future. Thanks Mike and others.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  40. #40
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Our biggest challenge is to allay the fears of the current users. One nasty story gets passed around and it is used to represent us. I suggested the problem of this view to a Director and he said that I was probably one of those really courteous riders and he wasn't talking about me. It got under my skin in a funny way.

    And it finally occurred to me that he was willing to dismiss me and my behavior as representative of the mtb community and, instead, use worst cases to identify us. That fit his picture of who we were.

    That I have been on the dirt and working with the community for 30 years is just swept aside so the internal picture doesn't change...

    You can love me or hate me, but I will not be dismissed.
    I don't rattle.

  41. #41
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I have been suggesting our challenge to manage current users. We got this note from a longtime hard working general trails advocate, an equestrian and hiker, who has never been a strong supporter of bikes:

    "Of course there is fear to overcome, both in the equestrian and hiking community, based on incidents that people have experienced and that will take a while to overcome. Part of EBMUD’s response will have to be to allay those fears—it will be interesting to see what they propose later this year."

    It said 2 things:

    1) there is fear, from those who now have access, to manage.

    2) there is a question as to what will be proposed.

    #2 is an interesting determination. No longer is it an avid statement for the certainty of closure. And this is interesting because in most all interactions I have had these small anticipations of concessions emerge. The question becomes how will it be executed.

    So fundamental to our presence at this table will be managing fears.
    I don't rattle.

  42. #42
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I have been suggesting our challenge to manage current users. We got this note from a longtime hard working general trails advocate, an equestrian and hiker, who has never been a strong supporter of bikes:

    "Of course there is fear to overcome, both in the equestrian and hiking community, based on incidents that people have experienced and that will take a while to overcome. Part of EBMUD’s response will have to be to allay those fears—it will be interesting to see what they propose later this year."

    It said 2 things:

    1) there is fear, from those who now have access, to manage.

    2) there is a question as to what will be proposed.

    #2 is an interesting determination. No longer is it an avid statement for the certainty of closure. And this is interesting because in most all interactions I have had these small anticipations of concessions emerge. The question becomes how will it be executed.

    So fundamental to our presence at this table will be managing fears.
    Hi Mike,

    First of all big ups and mad respect! I'm really happy I donated 100$ to BTCEB and I wear my sweet new socks proudly.

    May I make a suggestion? As someone in a safety sensitive profession I took a different tack with MCOSD just over the Richmond/San Rafael Bridge. I filed a freedom of information request and obtained the incident logs from MCOSD from 2006-2011. There were NO incidents involving bikes in the incident log.

    As with the FAA and NTSB generally most agencies will not act upon hysterical unfounded fears. At least without facts. I feel my actions created a change in the anti's strategy at least temporarily and may have resulted in several "cooked up" incidents involving MHC board members. One documented as false with Federal documents to boot!
    Equestrian injured by 'rogue bikers' - Marin IJ December 12 - Access4Bikes

  43. #43
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I've been riding around here for nearly 30 years and never had even a close call. Now I may be the exception but still, it has to represent something.


    The fears my not be be founded on our actual behavior but fear of our behavior. Zorg has a phrase about that as self-defeating. And then there are the folks who use every little bit of negative episode to spin and undermine at every opportunity. That is simply overtly undermining. Both are awkward to manage.


    I have been falling back on Cal State Parks analysis, EBRPD information and their development of policy supporting us, as well as insurance data but that is mostly about equestrians, their own worst enemy.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-24-2015 at 01:56 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,335
    Allhailtheblackmarket.com does a bit of a writeup on the EBMUD meeting as well: Well, I?ll be damned. | ALL HAIL THE BLACK MARKET
    Live to Ride, Ride to Live

  45. #45
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I love the writer's voice. However, just like Sierra Club's Stormin' Norman, it's too bad the writer did not stay for more of the meeting. We finished really strong; politics is an endurance event.
    I don't rattle.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plantdude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Secret is to enjoy what we have now while working on the future. Thanks Mike and others.
    My sentiments exactly. I applaud and appreciate the effort. Unfortunately I couldn't be there to add another voice to the contingent.

    As a designer who has worked with municipalities on master planning efforts and long range recreation planning, it sounds like there is a glimmer of hope, albeit one that will likely be very slow to incorporate MTBs as part of the recreational element.

    Until then, I'll take my chances exploring the remote open spaces found beyond gates...

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    518
    Quote Originally Posted by plantdude View Post
    ...it sounds like there is a glimmer of hope, albeit one that will likely be very slow to incorporate MTBs as part of the recreational element.

    Until then, I'll take my chances exploring the remote open spaces found beyond gates...
    I would say that this is a majority of how locals roll in the East Bay and Marin. For whatever their reasons may be . Move forward with stealthiness and leave no trace. In doing so, my encounters with other trail users have always been positive.

  48. #48
    middle ring single track
    Reputation: Moe Ped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Truckee29 View Post
    Move forward with stealthiness and leave no trace.
    This is key.

    When bikers start altering trails for biker jollies is when the resistance from other user groups is catalyzed.

    Occasional tread maintenance and brushing is appreciated; a set of triples is not.

    Skid kiddies; WTF!?!?
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    518
    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    This is key.

    When bikers start altering trails for biker jollies is when the resistance from other user groups is catalyzed.

    Occasional tread maintenance and brushing is appreciated; a set of triples is not.

    Skid kiddies; WTF!?!?
    It seems that type of altering or rouge trail building happens in areas where access is restricted or non-existent. This should be a visual cue to land managers that bikes need access. It's not going away, can't be fully enforced and will only grow in time.

  50. #50
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Quote Originally Posted by Truckee29 View Post
    It seems that type of altering or rouge trail building happens in areas where access is restricted or non-existent. This should be a visual cue to land managers that bikes need access. It's not going away, can't be fully enforced and will only grow in time.
    I have never believed that riding unauthorized trails is nearly as big a problem as rude riding behavior or rogue trails.
    I don't rattle.

Similar Threads

  1. EBMUD Meeting 8/20 needs you!
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-15-2015, 08:03 AM
  2. Access to EBMUD Trails: which ones?
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 07-29-2015, 08:38 AM
  3. EBMUD Master Plan review gets rolling
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 06-11-2015, 08:19 AM
  4. Ebmud / ca parks - how much would you pay?
    By detoilet in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 01-21-2015, 04:12 PM
  5. EBMUD on Grizzly Peak Blvd
    By Buzz Cut in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-18-2011, 10:54 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.