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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafekett View Post
    Where are you getting this number from? Specifically the "staff level and above part." Sounds made up. You are definitely correct there are a lot of folks with large lump sum income from windfalls (read IPOs) who are currently making more typical salaries that can easily afford the down payment on something like this and could be convinced to buy.
    Numbers I am getting from direct knowledge of it. I can PM concrete examples if you are interested. And another comment is right, with all the taxes it is hard to set aside down payment while paying $5k rents for a family sized place. But I was commenting on affordability of mortgage.

    Took me going through a couple acquisitions to get and pay off my small house, and that was before last run up in prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    It doesn't matter if you're W-2 or not. Note to derail this thread, but if you're 1099 like me, you pay 15% self employment, 30% federal tax, 10% CA, city tax, franchise fee (about 57% to the gubament already) plus I have to pay an accountant and for insurance.

    I know that my rate is competitive with a W-2 engineer, yet I've been ~2 years behind San Mateo County home prices with my savings. So my guess has been that the equity is making the difference. Anecdotally, all the new faces on my block, and my mother's in RWC, are tech people. What's the equity given to a more pedestrian title at a Google?
    By W2 employee I mean non-business owner, partner or principal. As an employee or contract employee you can't take advantage of the tax laws. As you're finding out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    By W2 employee I mean non-business owner, partner or principal. As an employee or contract employee you can't take advantage of the tax laws. As you're finding out.
    Yes, as long as capital gains are treated preferentially to actual work, earning money as a worker will put you at a disadvantage.

    I enjoyed this article on the Atlantic about "the 9.9%".

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Yes, as long as capital gains are treated preferentially to actual work, earning money as a worker will put you at a disadvantage.

    I enjoyed this article on the Atlantic about "the 9.9%".
    Thanks! Will take a read. It's not capital gains vs labor that is preferential in terms of tax treatment, it's investment vs. consumption. Our tax laws heavily favor long term investment and are very punitive to non investment consumption. Ever wonder why so many ultra wealthy are also some of the most frugal?

  5. #1205
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    Denton, Texas.

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Yes, as long as capital gains are treated preferentially to actual work, earning money as a worker will put you at a disadvantage.

    I enjoyed this article on the Atlantic about "the 9.9%".
    Well written article. Reminds me of “Principles of Scientific Communism” textbook from mandatory course I took in college.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Numbers I am getting from direct knowledge of it. I can PM concrete examples if you are interested.
    Do you work at Google? I don't think examples can prove a statistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Yes, as long as capital gains are treated preferentially to actual work, earning money as a worker will put you at a disadvantage.

    I enjoyed this article on the Atlantic about "the 9.9%".
    Good article but I wasn't expecting a book! Guess I'm in the 9.9% on paper but certainly not income-wise. Thank god for Prop 13 or I would have been forced to leave the Bay Area long ago.

    Since I'm retired I mostly don't have to deal with the traffic and that's about the only bad thing about the BA IMO. Unplanned/uncontrolled growth is a close second but that's everywhere you go.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafekett View Post
    Do you work at Google? I don't think examples can prove a statistic.
    I think you can find fairly reliable statistics from fairly reputable sources. And yes, they are accurate, slightly lower if anything due to stock growth and things like oncall compensation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Yes, as long as capital gains are treated preferentially to actual work, earning money as a worker will put you at a disadvantage.

    I enjoyed this article on the Atlantic about "the 9.9%".
    Capital gains (via stock options) in startups are a double edged sword. The tax implications are complicated and you can loose lots of money exercising startup options as I have in the past. In my last job I didn't exercise any of the options early and did a same day sale. End result is all the sales were treated as income not capital gains even though they were stock options. The whole system for startups is extremely broken and allows companies to exploit employees and stop them from moving to other jobs.

  11. #1211
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    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?-sjm-l-hudincome-0624-90.png

    By 2019, the median household in SF, San Mateo, and Marin counties will be low income.

    Food for thought as I'm stepping out of the grocery store and there's a McLaren and an AMG G wagen parked out front.

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    ... and if we just ...

    Food for thought as I'm stepping out of the grocery store and there's a McLaren and an AMG G wagen parked out front.[/QUOTE]

    Yes and don't forget there are others like myself driving something entirely different. To make a long story short I saved my a** off, bought property in the early 80's, early 90's and again in 09-10 and worked to pay everything off on my salary and rents, not on stock options, etc. And the only car I own is a 2004 Dodge Neon. It's runs great too!! LOL Oh yeah the 29er fits in the back w/ the seat down and the front tire off.

    The Bay Area is not just a land of Google and Facebook stock holders driving Beemers and flaunting it etc. There are probably many more like myself than we know.

    I do feel bad for those just starting but when I started it wasn't a cake walk. It takes time and effort budgeting to make it work but it can be done here in the B.A. still.

  13. #1213
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    ^^ This. I know a lot of high income types who blow every nickel they make, and they sure look good doing it, but they have no net worth. Of all the ultra high net worth people I now, frugality and investment are the keys.

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    Bay Area is full of keeping up with the Joneses type. Just because someone has a fancy car doesn't mean they are rich by any means. I once got picked up in a brand new Mercedes E class as an Uber. Guy was clearly trying to drive Uber to pay for it (good luck with that). I also saw a Quora post about an entry level software engineer (1-2 years experience, probably makes ~$110k) asking if should buy a Model S because he's in love with Tesla's marketing garbage/Elon Musk's ego. Then there was that NYTimes article titled "Middle class in Silicon Valley" which the cover photo was a Tesla parked in a trailer park. Clearly none of these people have made good purchasing decisions. I drive the same car I have since my net worth was negative. If I end up staying in Boulder I'll need a new one out of necessity (need 4WD for the winter), not out of want.

  15. #1215
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    Common sense is annoying. I really want a new car, but keep a working fine ten year old one.

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    I really wish I had the common sense of younger me and I would have a shiny new car taking up space either at my apartment or my mothers home. Stupid common sense needs to go away.

  17. #1217
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    Oh, car talk!

    I see the crazy bay area wealth daily, servicing cars. Imagine buying a $250K GT3 RS, putting 1,400 miles on it and then selling it back to the dealership two years later, at, oh, a $60K loss? Insane. I can't even imagine.

    Then there are the folks that come in and cut checks for their brand new GT3s. Sometimes it's hard not to wonder where you went wrong. Ha!

  18. #1218
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    You all make it sound so simple. Just be frugal and you too can have a home in silicon valley!!

    Well, my sister is a nurse at stanford hospital, and my BIL is a firefighter for SFFD, both in their early 30s. Both have very well paying jobs with crazy good benefits and pensions. They recently had my niece and are living in the "barrio" part of RWC because they cannot afford to even rent on the peninsula anywhere else. Good freaking luck trying to buy. To get a mediocre house you still need to come up with 200k as a down payment, and that is if you dont get outbid by someone (prospective homeonwner, flipper, or developer) with a cash offer. The whole idea of being able to buy low and watch your house appreciate in the BA has been done with for over 10 years (even that was only because of the VERY light effect the recession had in the area). to buy into the market in the bay area these days you need a chunk of cash upfront. And that is not something everyone has.


    They would love to move up to the PNW, into either oregon or WA, but she loves working at the Stanford hospital (and the pay that goes with it), and he sure as shit is not going to make 150k with a stupid ridiculous pension at any other FD in the country. They currently pay double in rent, what i pay in mortgage (in seattle area) for approximately the same size house. Working class folks have a good shot in even uber expensive places like seattle... but the BA is so out of touch, that they have no real shot there.


    Currently the plan is for my parents to let them live in the family house in Palo Alto and they will just pay my parents rent as they move around the country every year trying out different possible retirement towns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    You all make it sound so simple. Just be frugal and you too can have a home in silicon valley!!

    Well, my sister is a nurse at stanford hospital, and my BIL is a firefighter for SFFD, both in their early 30s. Both have very well paying jobs with crazy good benefits and pensions. They recently had my niece and are living in the "barrio" part of RWC because they cannot afford to even rent on the peninsula anywhere else. Good freaking luck trying to buy. To get a mediocre house you still need to come up with 200k as a down payment, and that is if you dont get outbid by someone (prospective homeonwner, flipper, or developer) with a cash offer. The whole idea of being able to buy low and watch your house appreciate in the BA has been done with for over 10 years (even that was only because of the VERY light effect the recession had in the area). to buy into the market in the bay area these days you need a chunk of cash upfront. And that is not something everyone has.


    They would love to move up to the PNW, into either oregon or WA, but she loves working at the Stanford hospital (and the pay that goes with it), and he sure as shit is not going to make 150k with a stupid ridiculous pension at any other FD in the country. They currently pay double in rent, what i pay in mortgage (in seattle area) for approximately the same size house. Working class folks have a good shot in even uber expensive places like seattle... but the BA is so out of touch, that they have no real shot there.


    Currently the plan is for my parents to let them live in the family house in Palo Alto and they will just pay my parents rent as they move around the country every year trying out different possible retirement towns.
    So if he's making 150k she's gotta be making the same so that 300k, 25k/mo. They can't make it work on that? Yes for sure it's not easy but certainly they can do well here on 300k per.

    Below is a sampling of homes available for rent near Stanford, single family homes between 3200-4k/mo. And there didn't seen to be any shortage of available places. That's still leaves them lots left over. If they don't want to buy feeling the market is topped then yes I get that and have them save 30% of what they make and get a good investment counselor. Time will go by and the savings invested will start to add up. Believe me it works, you just gotta keep at it!

    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa...617506807.html

    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa...623843682.html

    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa...628356588.html

    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa...627795646.html

    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/apa...623459820.html

  20. #1220
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    It is all first world problems anyway. Remembering growing up in the disintegrating Soviet Union, hard to be really deeply concerned about horrible plight of many folks around here. Yeah, it is a bit callous, but..

  21. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is all first world problems anyway. Remembering growing up in the disintegrating Soviet Union, hard to be really deeply concerned about horrible plight of many folks around here. Yeah, it is a bit callous, but..
    It's a luxury when you only have to worry about how big your upside is.

  22. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    So if he's making 150k she's gotta be making the same so that 300k, 25k/mo. They can't make it work on that? Yes for sure it's not easy but certainly they can do well here on 300k per.

    Below is a sampling of homes available for rent near Stanford, single family homes between 3200-4k/mo. And there didn't seen to be any shortage of available places. That's still leaves them lots left over. If they don't want to buy feeling the market is topped then yes I get that and have them save 30% of what they make and get a good investment counselor. Time will go by and the savings invested will start to add up. Believe me it works, you just gotta keep at it!
    Sure as heck isnt 300k take home per year (taxes + union fees). Add in student loan payments, a car payment, plus all the other bills that come with life and a baby and the ability to save 200k+ doesnt seem overly realistic until they are in their 40s. Also, you dont want to bankrupt yourself buying a home and be underwater with a young child, or barely able to afford the mortgage each month.

    if you dont mind my asking, when did you buy a house in the area?

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    Being nurse and firefighter at least their work is mobile to almost anywhere in the country. Nope they won't make as much, but at least they have pretty much any option they want.

    Most folks here being in tech - the options are more limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoothmoose View Post
    Being nurse and firefighter at least their work is mobile to almost anywhere in the country. Nope they won't make as much, but at least they have pretty much any option they want.
    She can move and make a salary that is relatively similar to her current salary. If he moves, he will be getting his salary cut down to a third or less of his current. SFFD is ridiculously high paying.

    How do people working trades buy a home in the BA?

  25. #1225
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    Just going off of what I'm observing with people closer to my age (mid 30's) is their parents helped them buy the house or they had to move somewhere crappy to afford a house (ex Antioch, Pittsburg, any other place where you'll find rows upon rows of houses with not much else).

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    to make it work, i moved out of SF and bought a crappy house in Concord. it was the smallest home. it had good "bones" but that house was a turd on the outside. i had to fix up a bunch of stuff..SLOWLY.

    best move i made, because EVEN concord started to look good to a bunch of people. i doubled my money and used it to buy my current home..up in Santa Rosa. my new home is okay..i am doing that slow fix thing again.

    i saved $$ since i was a kid..well, my parents made me save it and i just had the down payment for the first shack. i'm glad they made me save when i was young. i remember her helping us buy stocks and mutual funds and things.. i didnt know jack shit, except any birthday money, and some of my earnings from my early jobs got whisked away..i was bitter and thought that money would never be seen by my eyes ever again.
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  27. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    How do people working trades buy a home in the BA?
    They don’t buy a house in the BA. they buy in Vacaville, Rancho Cordova, Folsom, etc.

    I have a friend that works for SFFD. He lives in Rancho Cordova. He collects the big money and owns a big new home.
    I know another guy that works for San Rafael FD. He lives in Folsom.
    And a third guy that works for Santa Rosa FD. He lives in Truckee.

    The long shifts of fire fighters means only having a to commute a few times a week.


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  28. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomchakabowwow View Post
    to make it work, i moved out of SF and bought a crappy house in Concord. it was the smallest home. it had good "bones" but that house was a turd on the outside. i had to fix up a bunch of stuff..SLOWLY.

    best move i made, because EVEN concord started to look good to a bunch of people. i doubled my money and used it to buy my current home..up in Santa Rosa. my new home is okay..i am doing that slow fix thing again.

    i saved $$ since i was a kid..well, my parents made me save it and i just had the down payment for the first shack. i'm glad they made me save when i was young. i remember her helping us buy stocks and mutual funds and things.. i didnt know jack shit, except any birthday money, and some of my earnings from my early jobs got whisked away..i was bitter and thought that money would never be seen by my eyes ever again.
    That sounds like good parenting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    They don’t buy a house in the BA. they buy in Vacaville, Rancho Cordova, Folsom, etc.

    I have a friend that works for SFFD. He lives in Rancho Cordova. He collects the big money and owns a big new home.
    I know another guy that works for San Rafael FD. He lives in Folsom.
    And a third guy that works for Santa Rosa FD. He lives in Truckee.

    The long shifts of fire fighters means only having a to commute a few times a week.


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    That's a whole lot of driving to live somewhere awfully crappy in a McMansion in a newly platted cookie cutter neighborhood (truckee guy excepted).

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    There are Bay Area FD, CHP, etc guys up here in Chico and other parts of the north valley, but the ones I know of usually commute only once each way and share a small apt with some coworkers as a place to sleep during their days on. They want to provide well for their family and are really pushing it hard now to earn a good and early retirement. Not the way I want to spend my younger years though

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    It sounds like the area needs new housing starts and more roads.

    Or maybe a really super fast train to nowhere that also carries passenger in their cars? The train can circle 24-7 like the old MX Missile project, and let people off in their cars to drive to work and then later return to their moving prison.


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    Are you saying that we're spoiled?

    For most of us foreigners, we appreciate how good we have it overall.

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  33. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    It sounds like the area needs new housing starts and more roads.
    It needs more roads and less offices on Peninsula. It does not need dense housing, that is just money grab by developers.

    It was just fine enough before the office construction boom. Cities approved that by choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It needs more roads and less offices on Peninsula. It does not need dense housing, that is just money grab by developers.

    It was just fine enough before the office construction boom. Cities approved that by choice.
    Where'd the tax money from those offices go?

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    This is all graft and profiteering. First various Sobratos and out of state development groups make money on new offices near where management lives. Then they sell this insane idea that high density housing along El Camino will make everything better, and socialists here buy it up. So that developers will make more billions and life will suck for all the peons in high density apartments even worse.
    I grew up in frigging high density city, with excellent public transport. I will take even today’s Bay Area over such zoo any day.

    And the thing is, Googles and Apples do not really need to pack another half a million of coders in here. Innovation will continue just fine if further growth is in Portland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    This is all graft and profiteering. First various Sobratos and out of state development groups make money on new offices near where management lives. Then they sell this insane idea that high density housing along El Camino will make everything better, and socialists here buy it up. So that developers will make more billions and life will suck for all the peons in high density apartments even worse.
    I grew up in frigging high density city, with excellent public transport. I will take even today’s Bay Area over such zoo any day.

    And the thing is, Googles and Apples do not really need to pack another half a million of coders in here. Innovation will continue just fine if further growth is in Portland.
    I wasn’t advocating for high density housing, per se. Personally, I dislike it, too. But when the cost of developing land is inflated by X, then a developer will go that route in order to make money. In addition, there are a lot of government “Planners” if you will, who pushing zoning ordinances to the hilt, as well as their vision of the sustainable community on others. It ends up being a community of bottlenecks and congestion.

    I am sort of of in agreement with you, but the culprit isn’t the market, it’s the government and the subset of the citizenry who already have their mansions and use their wealth to so that the government does their bidding.


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    i find it interesting that all the new housing developements come up with giant homes.

    i think if someone took a piece of land, and built some nice smaller 3 br, 2 bath homes. normal ones without entrance Foyers and stuff..they would sell the crap out of them. right now, all i see are giant cubed shaped home with tiny yards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomchakabowwow View Post
    i find it interesting that all the new housing developements come up with giant homes.

    i think if someone took a piece of land, and built some nice smaller 3 br, 2 bath homes. normal ones without entrance Foyers and stuff..they would sell the crap out of them. right now, all i see are giant cubed shaped home with tiny yards.
    As a developer, which would you rather do: build a 4000sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 2million, or build a 2500sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 1.5 million? there is <100k difference in build cost. Pretty easy math. there is no real shortage of buyers.

  39. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    As a developer, which would you rather do: build a 4000sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 2million, or build a 2500sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 1.5 million? there is <100k difference in build cost. Pretty easy math. there is no real shortage of buyers.
    I would divide the 6000 sf lot into thirds and build three 1500 sf homes and sell them for $1 million each. A good number of buyers in CA seem to want new homes and are willing to sacrifice land to get that new home.
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    Hey Cal-gro, yes I did buy my house years ago so I'm not saddled w/ today's high prices however, when I did buy I specifically remember asking myself "Should I do this, how am I gonna ever pay this off". Like I said it wasn't a cake walk. I really think if someone has good jobs here and they know they are going to stay for a long time or at least until they retire and are in their 40'd like your Family, I would buy no doubt.

    The Bay Area's biggest problem is transportation. BART needs to be overhauled and updated. Then there needs to be super high speed rail to Central Valley cities (Sacto and Fresno at the least) w/ a major hub in between like Tracy where all the trains meet. 15 min to Tracy from SF and 20 min to Sacto or Fresno from Tracy. You give people MANY more options for living when good transportation is available. After that is built, get rid of rent control. Rent control makes housing more expensive as it takes units off the market and makes it more expensive for newcomers to live here. I think we'd all be surprised how many units become available if rent control were abolished. The more availability, the more affordable it will become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    As a developer, which would you rather do: build a 4000sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 2million, or build a 2500sf house on a 6000sf lot and sell it for 1.5 million? there is <100k difference in build cost. Pretty easy math. there is no real shortage of buyers.
    i did some research. i think it is more cost effective to build a bigger home. i am working out the math. that is what a builder just told me.

    i think take that same 6000sf lot, and put two 2500 sf homes on it with the same janky ass postage stamp yard. but the guy told me it is cheaper to build a big home. who knew?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    Hey Cal-gro, yes I did buy my house years ago so I'm not saddled w/ today's high prices however, when I did buy I specifically remember asking myself "Should I do this, how am I gonna ever pay this off". Like I said it wasn't a cake walk. I really think if someone has good jobs here and they know they are going to stay for a long time or at least until they retire and are in their 40'd like your Family, I would buy no doubt.

    The Bay Area's biggest problem is transportation. BART needs to be overhauled and updated. Then there needs to be super high speed rail to Central Valley cities (Sacto and Fresno at the least) w/ a major hub in between like Tracy where all the trains meet. 15 min to Tracy from SF and 20 min to Sacto or Fresno from Tracy. You give people MANY more options for living when good transportation is available. After that is built, get rid of rent control. Rent control makes housing more expensive as it takes units off the market and makes it more expensive for newcomers to live here. I think we'd all be surprised how many units become available if rent control were abolished. The more availability, the more affordable it will become.
    I totally agree that buying in ASAP is the best plan. Its just being able to come up with the DP is much, much harder now than even 10 years ago, let alone further back in time. the mortgage payment isnt impossible, its the mandatory initial cash cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy in that keeps people out of the real estate market. Its tough to save enough in a timely manner when you are paying super high rents, and the cost of living is high as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    I would divide the 6000 sf lot into thirds and build three 1500 sf homes and sell them for $1 million each. A good number of buyers in CA seem to want new homes and are willing to sacrifice land to get that new home.
    Yup, i do a lot of work for developers here in the seattle area that do exactly that. Depends on zoning codes, cost of land, etc. if in an urban area that is the way to go. If you have acres to develop, its more cost effective to build a mcmansion neighborhood to get rid of the inventory quickly and not have cash tied up for years while you try and fill up all those units. It really depends what the market in that specific neighborhood is looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomchakabowwow View Post
    i find it interesting that all the new housing developements come up with giant homes.

    i think if someone took a piece of land, and built some nice smaller 3 br, 2 bath homes. normal ones without entrance Foyers and stuff..they would sell the crap out of them. right now, all i see are giant cubed shaped home with tiny yards.
    Ding, ding, ding. Very similar to what I am currently doing, though it's a ton of work and you have to keep at it. In either case, I bought 0.70 acres in El Sobrante (literally my backyard in Kennedy Grove Park), I'm in the process of getting permits (yayyy, but not all that bad if you partner with good firms).

    I'll be grading the sloped lot, install retaining walls/foundation and while this is being done my Connect-Home will be in the process of being built and then later installed. It's about a 700 ft2 footprint, 2 story 2 beds 2 bath, very nice. I already own the land ~$100,000 and from all cost estimates when it's all complete I'll be in for ~$600K - $625K. As a single geologist/environmental engineer working for the City of Oakland that's my max-out price, but I think the result will be to my liking,. Whole process will take about 1.5 years, one must be patient (oh and I bought the land outright with a couple decades of frugality).

    I'm keeping the surrounding acreage pretty wild for chickens, goats and fruit trees. Cheers and my best to all out there grinding it out and looking to the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    I would divide the 6000 sf lot into thirds and build three 1500 sf homes and sell them for $1 million each. A good number of buyers in CA seem to want new homes and are willing to sacrifice land to get that new home.
    Because the bay area easily lets you change zoning laws right? Hell even doing a condo conversion for a TIC isn't easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    Because the bay area easily lets you change zoning laws right? Hell even doing a condo conversion for a TIC isn't easy.
    And I believe most BA cities require 2 covered off street parking spaces for new development so size does matter here. Dammit I always knew size mattered!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    I totally agree that buying in ASAP is the best plan. Its just being able to come up with the DP is much, much harder now than even 10 years ago, let alone further back in time. the mortgage payment isnt impossible, its the mandatory initial cash cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy in that keeps people out of the real estate market. Its tough to save enough in a timely manner when you are paying super high rents, and the cost of living is high as well.
    Are FHA loans still a thing? We bought our first house for $210K and had to come up with 3% cash up front. That was even tough 15+ years ago as we were just starting out, but I would think 3% ($30K) on a 1M house is still a lot for a young family just starting out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    Because the bay area easily lets you change zoning laws right? Hell even doing a condo conversion for a TIC isn't easy.
    Yeah, good luck with that. Many zoning laws won't allow the second address on the property. Zoning can be different in different zones within cities though.

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    Okay, now no one has to leave, see video below.

    If you give free rent to a street denizen, i.e., homeless person, then you can probably get around any elitist zoning restrictions and set up anywhere in SF. Alley, street, city park, parking lot, parking garage, former industrial hazmat site, etc.

    https://youtu.be/Hpps0x_MQ1Q


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    Oh wait, looks like a much lower cost version has been tried and rejected by the authorities on both costs:

    https://youtu.be/n-zESacteu4

    https://youtu.be/n6h7fL22WCE

    Proceed with the exodus...


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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Are FHA loans still a thing? We bought our first house for $210K and had to come up with 3% cash up front. That was even tough 15+ years ago as we were just starting out, but I would think 3% ($30K) on a 1M house is still a lot for a young family just starting out!
    Sure, then you are paying around $5200/month mortgage + mortgage insurance + Property taxes. Probably a very high interest rate too, because your financials won't look overly safe to a bank if you can only come up with 3% down. Pretty soon you are looking at a $7500-8000/month mortgage payment for a the cheapest starter house in a relativley safe/nice enough neighborhood.

    Its not easy for a young family to come up with $30k cash while still retaining some kind of safety net, let alone coming up with $200k+ for a DP. IDK why people think the area is worth it. But different strokes for different folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    Okay, now no one has to leave, see video below.

    If you give free rent to a street denizen, i.e., homeless person, then you can probably get around any elitist zoning restrictions and set up anywhere in SF. Alley, street, city park, parking lot, parking garage, former industrial hazmat site, etc.

    https://youtu.be/Hpps0x_MQ1Q


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    My coworker got sued by his neighbor for expanding his basement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    My coworker got sued by his neighbor for expanding his basement.


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    When I lived in San Diego the city had employees driving around to inspect residential renovations. It was not just to collect fees, but to reassess for property taxes. I guess some goes to the local government and when renovations were undertaken, at least portion of the value was no longer capped by prop 13.

    I miss the weather and that I lived 3 blocks from Missing Trails regional park, but otherwise nothing I miss about CA. It is an elitist dreamworld—I’d never move back.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Are FHA loans still a thing? We bought our first house for $210K and had to come up with 3% cash up front. That was even tough 15+ years ago as we were just starting out, but I would think 3% ($30K) on a 1M house is still a lot for a young family just starting out!
    The other issue with a 3% down FHA in the current market is it's doubtful the sellers will pick your bid over other seemingly more qualified (20% down, 50% down, cash, etc) offers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Are FHA loans still a thing? We bought our first house for $210K and had to come up with 3% cash up front. That was even tough 15+ years ago as we were just starting out, but I would think 3% ($30K) on a 1M house is still a lot for a young family just starting out!
    It's also probably not the best financial decision in a pricey housing market. With $970k in principal left you don't get the full mortgage interest deduction since the limit is now $750k. You also are in a jumbo loan category with higher interest rates and will be required to pay for mortgage insurance until you pay down enough principal. This is of course assuming you can get a mortgage on what underwriters know is likely a bubbly housing market. And then after that you have to compete with offers that will be putting a lot more down or even all cash.

    With the bay area buy to rent ratio being extremely skewed (you are likely paying 2x to 4x to buy the place vs rent it) how is this a good use of capital? It's a financially better idea to take that money and put in the stock market even if could afford it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    It's also probably not the best financial decision in a pricey housing market. With $970k in principal left you don't get the full mortgage interest deduction since the limit is now $750k. You also are in a jumbo loan category with higher interest rates and will be required to pay for mortgage insurance until you pay down enough principal. This is of course assuming you can get a mortgage on what underwriters know is likely a bubbly housing market. And then after that you have to compete with offers that will be putting a lot more down or even all cash.

    With the bay area buy to rent ratio being extremely skewed (you are likely paying 2x to 4x to buy the place vs rent it) how is this a good use of capital? It's a financially better idea to take that money and put in the stock market even if could afford it.
    That's always the risk I guess. However, tho the stock mkt has been pretty stable, there's no guarantee of anything. At least w/ housing there an end so to speak and that end would be a paid off house which is a guarantee if nothing else happens even if the value doesn't increase. But either is probably better than leaving it in the back to collect dust and devalue over time.

    BTW, there is a max FHA loan amount so if you bought a million dollar home FHA you'd be faced w/ a 350k approx down payment. I think the max in most BA Counties FHA is around 650k or close to that. Not sure if you can get a jumbo loan over 650k w/ 3% down. I doubt it but as others have mentioned, good luck getting an offer accepted w/ that type of down payment.

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    I have returned from yet another PNW trip.

    Spent the week in Portland, the Gorge, Seattle, and then Vancouver WA, outside Portland.

    I’ve been told July’s weather is solid, but it was not.

    Landed in PDX and it was low grey clouds, looked like winter, though it was warm enough and a bit humid. Clouds cleared by noon and then it was too hot for my taste, though clouds came and went. I had a BMX lesson at the Lumberyard. Learned to ride a half pipe and a concrete pool. Should transfer nicely to hillsides and big rocks along MTB trails.

    Bit chilly the next AM in the Gorge (I didn’t bring anything but t-shirts and shorts) but then it warmed up a bunch to what I’d expect for July. Twas noticeably humid, though not anything as bad as the midwest or east coast. Shade still brings major relief.

    I had this great plan to bring my new Transition frame and all the parts and build it up in the evening over some local beers. This, of course, turned into a curse fest as I realized I was missing some tools. I did almost no MTBing whatsoever. Do you feel a bond with a place without the euphoria from a ride? The goggles come off.

    Portland is very white, but to be fair there’s a lot of variety in those white people. Hood River is no different (there’s a decent number of latinos, too), other than far fewer pasty white legs on display. No better place to observe the variations than the 4th of July parade in Hood River. Not unlike Grass Valley, it’s a weird mix of wild caught fish and kale salad crowd in electric cars, flat brimmed hat “send it!” adrenaline junkies, 4H old timers, and the wife beater wearing MAGA army. Dancing hippies and two “floats” later a beat up brown truck with a confederate flag. The latino man next to me shouted “‘Merika!!!” as the truck clown car went past and they all cheered and grinned widely.

    Despite those failings, there is the charm of not being in a megacity. We needed a ride up to White Salmon after taking the Amtrak in. Paul from Bienvienti’s pizza in Bingen gave us a lift and my son a cookie. He didn’t know us, just saw us looking lost. There’s two concrete parks and two smaller pump track/DJ areas. Nothing spectacular, but riding out your door to *something* means a lot more riding time. The worst of the traffic is absolutely laughable. Two or three block crawl through HR at rush hour. People have time to chat with you. It’s ten minutes to a lake or river to to fish, SUP, kayak, or just swim.

    We drove out to Wishram then north on US97 through Central Washington. The terrain is not dissimilar to Central Oregon, except instead of Bend, central WA has Yakima. This is like substituting deli pastrami with baloney.

    Just past Yakima, the landscape changes. Cloudier, greener, prettier. Sharp pointed snow capped mountains that look like a row of shark’s teeth. Somewhere west of Cle Elum, Asians reappear.

    Friday, we drove back and forth along I-90. I’ve never been rained on so many times in one day. Coming in, it was sunny the whole way. On the return east, ominous clouds formed near Mount Si. Back west again, and light rain fell twice in Bellevue/Newport. The clouds moved in and smothered Issaquah and Sammamish, but driving east again there was very light drizzle in Fall City. We put in our kayak 2 miles east of Fall City. Waves of clouds, wind and rain passed, actually a welcome relief from the humid heat. Pulled the kayak out near the bridge in Fall City an hour later. The absolute grey and rain extended only to the Riverside Grill. Somehow that eatery held back the gloom like Sobieski at Vienna. Looking east, it was darker and darker. Westwards, a big hole in the clouds over Seattle proper. My only other major observation was that I-405 was red or black the entire afternoon and evening.

    The next morning the rain was gone, but the clouds stuck. We drove around Sammamish and Issaquah, stopping at Home Depot to copy a key. The crowd was fully compatible with the expectations of someone leaving the SF bay area. Not a single person you might thumb your nose at, or that would compel you to cross to the other side of the street. Next, back to Portland to catch our flight. We took the route south through Renton Highlands, which feels nothing like the neighborhoods on the other side of the Cougar Mountain. It is Hayward vs Los Gatos. The gloom was gone though, just partly cloudy; I recoiled like dracula and donned sun glasses. This lasted until Tacoma, which greets you with grey and red tail lights. We didn’t see the sun again until an hour or so outside Portland, which was entirely clear and consistent with our last road trip. 84 and humid again. We drove around Vancouver and Camas, which can be oddly upscale and rough in close proximity. We drove up a hill to compare the view to Seattle and were disappointed. Certainly it is nice to see Mt Hood and St Helens, but I wouldn’t pay for a view here. It doesn’t inspire the same awe that I get, say, coming down a hill in Pac Heights or somewhere in Seattle.

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    Wow, that sounded quite grumpy. People do not visit Hood River for the culture, instead the proximity to the outdoors, which it sadly sounds like you did not get to partake in. There's a city-folk invasion every weekend/holiday and the vibe changes drastically during the week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BraapTastic View Post
    Wow, that sounded quite grumpy. People do not visit Hood River for the culture, instead the proximity to the outdoors, which it sadly sounds like you did not get to partake in. There's a city-folk invasion every weekend/holiday and the vibe changes drastically during the week.
    I don't know about grumpy. I appreciate that folks can co-exist. That is not obvious after so long on the Peninsula.

    And I got out, just not for my main adrenaline rush-- MTB. I fished three times, hiked twice, windsurfed twice, rode pump tracks twice, kayaked once.

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    At this point, there aren't much in the way of pump tracks - however, a velosolutions pump track is going in later this month, so you'll have to return! The riding is pretty good within 10 minutes and lots to explore up on Hood. Hood River Bicycles has a pretty good demo selection if not wanting to haul your steed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BraapTastic View Post
    At this point, there aren't much in the way of pump tracks - however, a velosolutions pump track is going in later this month, so you'll have to return! The riding is pretty good within 10 minutes and lots to explore up on Hood. Hood River Bicycles has a pretty good demo selection if not wanting to haul your steed.
    I like the one at Spoke Club in White Salmon. Two loops.

    I donated to the Velosolutions track I'll be back in 3 weeks.

    The three tables after the Knieval jump @ Spoke Club are looking pretty sad. I msg'd Community Partners.

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    Send me a pm if you want any recommendations. Stuff is getting blown out, but still good. The dirt goes from concrete into powder rather quickly.

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    From WalletHub. Worst Large U.S. Cities for Driving:

    91. Chicago, Illinois
    92. Los Angeles, California
    93. Newark, New Jersey
    94. New York, New York
    95. Boston, Massachusetts
    96. Seattle, Washington
    97. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    98. Oakland, California
    99. San Francisco, California
    100. Detroit, Michigan

    https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst...rive-in/13964/

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Portland is very white, but to be fair there’s a lot of variety in those white people. Hood River is no different (there’s a decent number of latinos, too), other than far fewer pasty white legs on display. No better place to observe the variations than the 4th of July parade in Hood River. Not unlike Grass Valley, it’s a weird mix of wild caught fish and kale salad crowd in electric cars, flat brimmed hat “send it!” adrenaline junkies, 4H old timers, and the wife beater wearing MAGA army. Dancing hippies and two “floats” later a beat up brown truck with a confederate flag. The latino man next to me shouted “‘Merika!!!” as the truck clown car went past and they all cheered and grinned widely.
    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I don't know about grumpy. I appreciate that folks can co-exist.
    THEY are coexisting, while you are judging people, towns and parades by skin color. Do us all a favor and stay in the Bay Area where everyone is as judgemental and hypocritical as you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    THEY are coexisting, while you are judging people, towns and parades by skin color. Do us all a favor and stay in the Bay Area where everyone is as judgemental and hypocritical as you are.
    Ok, I just said they are co-existing and it's cool. I hear a lot of folks in the bay area talking about the importance of diversity, then hating on folks who aren't educated or left leaning. Diversity isn't just color is all I meant: "I appreciate that folks can co-exist."

  66. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    ...Do us all a favor and stay in the Bay Area where everyone is as judgemental and hypocritical as you are.

    A little much there
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    THEY are coexisting, while you are judging people, towns and parades by skin color. Do us all a favor and stay in the Bay Area where everyone is as judgemental and hypocritical as you are.
    Irony?

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    Glad to see you are all back at work today.

    I was doing some reading; I think Voltaire somehow foresaw forums:
    “What! have you no monks who teach, who dispute, who govern, who cabal, and who burn people that are not of their opinion?”

    “In every province, the chief occupations, in order of importance, are lovemaking, malicious gossip, and talking nonsense.”
    (Well we've got the latter two covered)

    And regarding this thread: "It is evident that one must travel."

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    If they were all about inclusion and tolerance, what was the Confederate flag for?
    Certainly not "heritage", in Oregon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    If they were all about inclusion and tolerance, what was the Confederate flag for?
    Certainly not "heritage", in Oregon.

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    There was only one Confederate flag. You're going to come across that out in the boonies in Oregon and Washington, so be prepared (I was shocked that it was allowed in the parade, but then when I came to the United States I was perplexed why a popular TV show featured a car with a Confederate flag on it; so I've always suspended disbelief). Someone else made a comment about old Hood River county. If you drive out to, say, John Day or Burns, I get the feeling you'll get more of it.

    But in general I have contact with folks in more diverse situations out there and it's not a negative experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    If they were all about inclusion and tolerance, what was the Confederate flag for?
    Certainly not "heritage", in Oregon.

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    For many folks, the confederate flag symbolizes a rebel spirit and the notion that this country's citizens will stand up against the central government in DC.

    When you get out of the bubble of the BA, you (general) start to realize how different culturally this country is region to region, even county to county.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    For many folks, the confederate flag symbolizes a rebel spirit and the notion that this country's citizens will stand up against the central government in DC.

    When you get out of the bubble of the BA, you (general) start to realize how different culturally this country is region to region, even county to county.
    And here I thought it symbolized the support of slavery and treason.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    And here I thought it symbolized the support of slavery and treason.




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    Symbols mean different things to different people. Lots of people choose to forget the bad things associated with symbols and only celebrate the good things.

    Ignorance doesnt always equate to maliciousness.

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    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Symbols mean different things to different people. Lots of people choose to forget the bad things associated with symbols and only celebrate the good things.

    Ignorance doesnt always equate to maliciousness.
    Forgetfulness or intentional obfuscation?

    Did slavery and the Civil War just not happen in these people’s minds?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Forgetfulness or intentional obfuscation?

    Did slavery and the Civil War just not happen in these people’s minds?




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    I don't want to speak for them, but i would assume that they would say slavery is horrible, but the Confederate flag symbolizes so much more than that to them- states rights, rebel spirit, screw the establishment, and a generally contrarian attitude to the liberal coastal elites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    I don't want to speak for them, but i would assume that they would say slavery is horrible, but the Confederate flag symbolizes so much more than that to them- states rights, rebel spirit, screw the establishment, and a generally contrarian attitude to the liberal coastal elites.
    Similar to many in the northern 1/4 of the state with State of Jefferson shirts, bumper stickers, etc but at least they have a less offensive and tainted symbol to connect over

    Then again I know of people who won't go south of Red Bluff because "that's basically Mexico", so who knows what some of those people want their symbols to mean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    I don't want to speak for them, but i would assume that they would say slavery is horrible, but the Confederate flag symbolizes so much more than that to them- states rights, rebel spirit, screw the establishment, and a generally contrarian attitude to the liberal coastal elites.
    By “liberal coastal elites”, do they mean “the people who finance my way of life”?




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  78. #1278
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    Ok, back on topic.
    IPA will save America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    By “liberal coastal elites”, do they mean “the people who finance my way of life”?




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    Lots of issues in this country right now. Few will be helped by belittling and insults (however warranted).


    Up here in seattle area it is gonna be another day in the upper 80s low 90s, and most trails have turned to sketchy loose marbles. Gonna skip the afterwork ride, and walk down to the lake to go wake surfing instead Not a terrible compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Lots of issues in this country right now. Few will be helped by belittling and insults (however warranted).


    Up here in seattle area it is gonna be another day in the upper 80s low 90s, and most trails have turned to sketchy loose marbles. Gonna skip the afterwork ride, and walk down to the lake to go wake surfing instead Not a terrible compromise.
    I’m not belittling anyone. I’m making a factual statement; if people are offended or feel belittled by the fact that the vast majority of tax revenue comes from large, often coastal cities, that’s on them. That’s like getting upset about the fact that the sky is blue, or that the capital of Kansas is Topeka.


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    There was an article in the Mercury news about the ongoing exodus from the bay area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    There was an article in the Mercury news about the ongoing exodus from the bay area.
    Yeah, remember reading it in 1994.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Yeah, remember reading it in 1994.
    And 2000!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I’m not belittling anyone. I’m making a factual statement; if people are offended or feel belittled by the fact that the vast majority of tax revenue comes from large, often coastal cities, that’s on them. That’s like getting upset about the fact that the sky is blue, or that the capital of Kansas is Topeka.


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    Is it? California and New York make for 600b out of 3T, but they are not all coastal cities either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I’m not belittling anyone. I’m making a factual statement; if people are offended or feel belittled by the fact that the vast majority of tax revenue comes from large, often coastal cities, that’s on them. That’s like getting upset about the fact that the sky is blue, or that the capital of Kansas is Topeka.


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    Look up the definition of belittle. You are acting like a stereotype of the kind of "liberal coastal elite" that fired up "middle america" and got our current president elected.

    There are better ways to communicate facts so that you don't belittle or put your listener on the defensive. But, maybe you don't want to change anyone's opinion and are happy with the status quo. who knows?

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    So was "liberal coastal elites" meant to be an expression of admiration and a compliment? It certainly wasn't and isn't a neutral term. You can't have it both ways.

    Agreed that this thread (and this country) has way too much belittling and insulting (especially towards those not in their tribe). It's become too much of a sport on each side to slam the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Lots of issues in this country right now. Few will be helped by belittling and insults (however warranted).


    Up here in seattle area it is gonna be another day in the upper 80s low 90s, and most trails have turned to sketchy loose marbles. Gonna skip the afterwork ride, and walk down to the lake to go wake surfing instead Not a terrible compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Ok, back on topic.
    ...or not.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king_dave72 View Post
    So was "liberal coastal elites" meant to be an expression of admiration and a compliment? It certainly wasn't and isn't a neutral term. You can't have it both ways.
    No it wasn't (though i am perfectly happy with the descriptor applied to me haha).

    That is the point though, the "middle america" contingent wants to belittle and insult, and the "liberal coastal elite" contingent wants to belittle and insult. Neither side is spending much time on productively discussing issues and convincing the other. Just cause the otherside wants to sling mud doesnt mean you have to meet them down there at every opportunity, ya know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    No it wasn't (though i am perfectly happy with the descriptor applied to me haha).

    That is the point though, the "middle america" contingent wants to belittle and insult, and the "liberal coastal elite" contingent wants to belittle and insult. Neither side is spending much time on productively discussing issues and convincing the other. Just cause the otherside wants to sling mud doesnt mean you have to meet them down there at every opportunity, ya know?
    Absolutely. And productive discussion doesn't work without listening and then empathy to understand what issues look like from another side. We're not good at that in our adversarial Argument Culture, but I think those are hard things for any human

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    Ah, you were using it facetiously. Agreed there is very little discussing, almost no listening but a lot of attempts at convincing (when it's not just insults). There is also little acknowledgement of hypocritical (or paradoxical) views/opinions on each side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    There was only one Confederate flag. You're going to come across that out in the boonies in Oregon and Washington, so be prepared (I was shocked that it was allowed in the parade...)
    That does indicate that open displays of racism have the blessings of the powers that be there. Certainly not a welcoming environment for people of color.

    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    For many folks, the confederate flag symbolizes a rebel spirit
    I would have thought our nation's flag would suffice for that, particularly on the 4th of July.

    Even the Gadsen flag would at least be historically appropriate.
    I like this one:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I’m not belittling anyone. I’m making a factual statement; if people are offended or feel belittled by the fact that the vast majority of tax revenue comes from large, often coastal cities, that’s on them. That’s like getting upset about the fact that the sky is blue, or that the capital of Kansas is Topeka.


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    You do realize the vast majority of tax money goes right back where it came from? People in rural Missouri (or anywhere else away from the coast) aren't exactly living large thanks to SF and NYC. And there are plenty of people that don't give a f@^k about money, and just get more riled up when it's thrown in their face.
    And I'm not taking either side, just calling BS when I see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    By “liberal coastal elites”, do they mean “the people who finance my way of life”?
    Perfect example of douchey hubris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurtssogood View Post
    You do realize the vast majority of tax money goes right back where it came from? People in rural Missouri (or anywhere else away from the coast) aren't exactly living large thanks to SF and NYC. And there are plenty of people that don't give a f@^k about money, and just get more riled up when it's thrown in their face.
    And I'm not taking either side, just calling BS when I see it.
    On a macro level Duke is right. How the money filters down is another issue. Short version: wealthy States subsidize those that don't do as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Perfect example of douchey hubris.
    Tell me where I’m wrong.

    Attack the point. Not the person.


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    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by hurtssogood View Post
    You do realize the vast majority of tax money goes right back where it came from? People in rural Missouri (or anywhere else away from the coast) aren't exactly living large thanks to SF and NYC. And there are plenty of people that don't give a f@^k about money, and just get more riled up when it's thrown in their face.
    And I'm not taking either side, just calling BS when I see it.
    You understand that certain areas are going receive more than they put in, and others less, right? Now, imagine Missouri trying to get by with 15% less in their state coffers every year.

    Here’s a nice illustration.

    https://taxfoundation.org/which-stat...federal-aid-0/




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Tell me where I’m wrong.

    Attack the point. Not the person.
    Not an "attack" unless your skin is thin but you do come off as an elitist. I was born and raised on the blue, SF coast btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Not an "attack" unless your skin is thin but you do come off as an elitist. I was born and raised on the blue, SF coast btw.
    As previously requested:

    Prove me wrong.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    You understand that certain areas are going receive more than they put in, and others less, right? Now, imagine Missouri trying to get by with 15% less in their state coffers every year.

    Here’s a nice illustration.

    https://taxfoundation.org/which-stat...federal-aid-0/




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    No doubt some places do, but the distribution tends to coincide with population. I'm also pretty sure most of those rednecks would just as soon kiss that 15% goodbye if it meant CA becoming its own country so they wouldn't have to fear for their guns and equal bathroom access and porn and whatever else gets them worked up.
    So anyways, Texarkana? Moline? Omaha? Thoughts?

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    I’m pretty sure they already have equal access to porn and wish to maintain it


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