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  1. #1
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    Vote on the concept of inviting opponents of trail access and public officials, to ad

    Vote on the concept of inviting opponents of trail access and public officials, to address this Forum


    Here is a idea that has spawned off of Berkeley Mike's concept of a " A New Word For Poaching".

    One of the problems seems to be getting bikers to attend meetings with the opponents of bike trail access. I think it might helpful to invite some of the opponents and public officials here instead. If they were issued a formal invitation by a group of people here, they might accept the invitation. People are already free to do what they wish on their own, so this is just something a group of people could do it they want.

    pliebenberg seems to be in agreement with this concept. So two people is all that it takes to form a group and vote on ideas. Anyone else is welcome to vote, if they wish. You can oppose the idea of the vote if you like, but that won't affect the vote count.

    So the question is do you support the idea of inviting any opponents of trail access and/or public officials to this Forum?

    The vote is open to any current members of this Forum.

    If the vote is in favor of inviting a group. The next vote can be what group or groups of people should be invited. One could vote on allowing all groups or just specific groups.

    If the idea is voted down, there will be no need to worry about figuring out which groups should be invited..

    Result's will be counted one week from now
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  2. #2
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    nope....

    the banter that goes on here should remain *unadvertised*...IMHO
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  3. #3
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    Yes

    Since they're here already, my vote is a yes---let's get them out of the closet.

    FWIW, I'm a member of the Sierra Club and I think the Sierra Club sucks---a more hypocritical organization would be hard to find. Being a member there gives me power to challenge this hypocrisy.
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  4. #4
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    opponents - no. They already have their view and it won't change. This place will turn into a pissing match.
    Public officials - they have better things to do than read MTBR. Unless it's in their interest at getting re-elected they won't care. So some Intern *might* be tasked with checking on things once in a while. But there are so many forums... they will probably just get lost in the DH forum watching videos.

  5. #5
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    Nope. And once this page reaches 245+ replies and 6 pages I will start a new thread!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road-Kill
    Vote on the concept of inviting opponents of trail access and public officials, to address this Forum


    Here is a idea that has spawned off of Berkeley Mike's concept of a " A New Word For Poaching".

    One of the problems seems to be getting bikers to attend meetings with the opponents of bike trail access. I think it might helpful to invite some of the opponents and public officials here instead. If they were issued a formal invitation by a group of people here, they might accept the invitation. People are already free to do what they wish on their own, so this is just something a group of people could do it they want.

    pliebenberg seems to be in agreement with this concept. So two people is all that it takes to form a group and vote on ideas. Anyone else is welcome to vote, if they wish. You can oppose the idea of the vote if you like, but that won't affect the vote count.

    So the question is do you support the idea of inviting any opponents of trail access and/or public officials to this Forum?

    The vote is open to any current members of this Forum.

    If the vote is in favor of inviting a group. The next vote can be what group or groups of people should be invited. One could vote on allowing all groups or just specific groups.

    If the idea is voted down, there will be no need to worry about figuring out which groups should be invited..

    Result's will be counted one week from now
    .
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  7. #7
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    If you don't want these folks in a discussion

    all you have to do is not discuss things with them.

    Just because someone asks you a question or says something to you doesn't mean you have to answer.

    What is really unfortunate here is that there are number of people who just haven't learned that discussions with anti's is pointless. Further there are some pretty idealistic thoughts about advocacy and community participation spouted here. I'm guessing that they come from people who are too new to this circumstance to know any better. I guess we could just sit by the sidelines and watch them learn. Seems a shame, yet that is what is left as it is very hard to get some adults to learn from another adult's experience. They think you are making stuff up or just haven't been very clever.

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    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 08-27-2010 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #8
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    Count me as a No. Without some strict rules and moderation, it would just turn into an online peeing match.

  9. #9
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    Yes no or maybe?

    I believe Road Kill is just trying to conduct a poll here---your vote was???

    You and a whole bunch of other forum members are so cynical---I agree that many anti-bike folks are intractable (as too are the pro-poaching folks here!) ---but it doesn't hurt to give it an honest try.

    CPR only works about 5% of the time---does this mean it shouldn't ever be attempted???

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    all you have to do is not discuss things with them.

    Just because someone asks you a question or says something to you doesn't mean you have to answer.

    What is really unfortunate here is that there are number of people who just haven't learned that discussions with anti's is pointless. Further there are some pretty idealistic thoughts about advocacy and community participation spouted here. I'm guessing that they come from people who are too new to this circumstance to know any better. I guess we could just sit by the sidelines and watch them learn yet. Seems a shame yet that is what is left as it is very hard to get some adults to learn from another adult's experience. They think you are making stuff up or just haven't been very clever.

    The sun's over the yard arm. Time to fire-up the blender.
    Last edited by Moe Ped; 08-27-2010 at 10:48 PM.
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  10. #10
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    This is stupid.

    You don't stand outside the tent and piss in, you don't shyte on your own doorstep. Inviting anti's into the forum doesn't jive with my take on the community mores. I think it's presumptuous to assume otherwise, worse even to go rogue and invite other groups to debate here, as you've already done.

    Since you've already run off and invited Sierra Clubbers, etc. to this forum, what's the point of this again????

  11. #11
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    I think it was already clearly explained to you that you behave like an immature idiot.

  12. #12
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    You're on!

    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    I believe Road Kill is just trying to conduct a pole here---your vote was???

    You and a whole bunch of other forum members are so cynical---I agree that many anti-bike folks are intractable (as too are the pro-poaching folks here!) ---but it doesn't hurt to give it an honest try.

    CPR only works about 5% of the time---does this mean it shouldn't ever be attempted???

    I am still not certain what he has actually done other than lose credibility. He has done little more than spout ideas and then goes on to fail to work with the people on the forum. That is nothing more than being a loose cannon. Now he is trying to backpeddle, deconstruct, and do repairs. I won't invest anything in that but I will in you as far as your comment goes.

    Been there, done that, for 15 years. how long have you done this? How many meetings have you gone to and spoken to boards, panels, or hate groups? How many times have you had your minor riders verbally assaulted by haters? I'm waiting.

    How long have you been doing CPR? I've been dong it since 1975. Now it has been decided that the old way was not useful, the breathing has been eliminated, and now you use a machine that tells you what to do and use it only in cases of arrhythmia (chaotic or light beating) where it has a chance of success. THE POINT BEING that the old methods have been found wanting and new methods are needed which recognize the limits of what one can do.

    Sooo....

    if you look at your own model of CPR it defeats your point and supports mine. I coudl not have found a better analogy myself. I give you full credit.

    (For this part I ask you to pretend you are hearing this in a kind and supportive voice.) You really do fail to demonstrate appreciation for your audience. Try using the View Public Profile feature a bit. It is really helpful. Click on the boldfaced and underlined User name. Look at some of their info, posts and photos. You seem to be a fairly bright guy. I'm sure your contributions can be enriching to us all but you shoot yourself in the foot and make a pretty easy target.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    Count me as a No. Without some strict rules and moderation, it would just turn into an online peeing match.
    And how would that be different from what we do amongst ourselves?

    Personnally, while I think it'd be fun and entertaining, I highly doubt that it'd yield anything positive. Plenty of advocates have made overtures to the other side before, and everytime they were met by a "no thanks" (that's the nice version of it). Frankly, in the bay area, the other side owns the trails and definitely does not want to share them unless they have to (as seen in every meeting about opening up a new trail).

    I think that it'd be better if we invited ourselves to hiker, Sierra Club, horsey people forums and went to debate there. Probably the same result. To the OP, why don't you link to the usual anti crowd forums so that we know where to go?
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  14. #14
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    An emphatic NO. I can't think of a way in which the conversation could possibly end well in a medium such as this. It would end up looking like an online newspaper comment section... UGLY.

    I specifically work with an organization that is trying (with some successful baby steps) to get all the user groups to the access table in Marin. As excellent as MTBR is, it is NOT the place for these discussions.
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  15. #15
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    It looks like the noes have it...

    QUOTE=Berkeley Mike I am still not certain what he has actually done other than lose credibility. He has done little more than spout ideas and then goes on to fail to work with the people on the forum. That is nothing more than being a loose cannon. Now he is trying to backpeddle, deconstruct, and do repairs. I won't invest anything in that but I will in you as far as your comment goes.
    Thanks!

    Been there, done that, for 15 years. how long have you done this? How many meetings have you gone to and spoken to boards, panels, or hate groups? How many times have you had your minor riders verbally assaulted by haters? I'm waiting.
    I gave up going to meetings 20 years ago---I found it too hard to control my anger back then, I've mellowed out considerably. Cynicism is an old friend of mine.

    How long have you been doing CPR? I've been dong it since 1975. Now it has been decided that the old way was not useful, the breathing has been eliminated, and now you use a machine that tells you what to do and use it only in cases of arrhythmia (chaotic or light beating) where it has a chance of success. THE POINT BEING that the old methods have been found wanting and new methods are needed which recognize the limits of what one can do.
    I'm not positive but I think my 1st CPR cert was in 1972 for a SCUBA class. Then I needed a cert for my job so I had annual classes from 1980 through 2006 when I retired. So that's why I'm only familiar with the old ways.

    Sooo....

    if you look at your own model of CPR it defeats your point and supports mine. I coudl not have found a better analogy myself. I give you full credit.
    Thanks again!

    (For this part I ask you to pretend you are hearing this in a kind and supportive voice.) You really do fail to demonstrate appreciation for your audience. Try using the View Public Profile feature a bit. It is really helpful. Click on the boldfaced and underlined User name. Look at some of their info, posts and photos. You seem to be a fairly bright guy. I'm sure your contributions can be enriching to us all but you shoot yourself in the foot and make a pretty easy target. /QUOTE

    Yeah, I probably mis-judged the forum membership; my bad! Live and learn as they say.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    What is really unfortunate here is that there are number of people who just haven't learned that discussions with anti's is pointless. Further there are some pretty idealistic thoughts about advocacy and community participation spouted here. I'm guessing that they come from people who are too new to this circumstance to know any better. I guess we could just sit by the sidelines and watch them learn. Seems a shame, yet that is what is left as it is very hard to get some adults to learn from another adult's experience. They think you are making stuff up or just haven't been very clever.
    Exactly. (mark your calendar with this date)

    Hence my question to road-kill about how many meetings he's been to.

    His silence on that issue is deafening...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    I believe Road Kill is just trying to conduct a pole here---your vote was???
    Keep the pollacks out of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    You and a whole bunch of other forum members are so cynical---I agree that many anti-bike folks are intractable (as too are the pro-poaching folks here!) ---but it doesn't hurt to give it an honest try.
    Why do you, and others, assume that it hasn't been given "an honest try" over the last 25+ years?

    How many meetings have you been to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    ---but it doesn't hurt to give it an honest try.
    Here's my take on that. There are some politically savvy folks here who have been through a ton of meetings, hearings, letter writing campaigns, you name it. And many of the more active folks I know in this regard don't even bother with this site. Most of them are busy, are volunteers, and do this stuff for the love of riding a bike and a true enjoyment of the outdoors.

    What's been learned is there are some implacable foes to cycling, some managers who are averse to controversy, some anti-bike folks who hide under an environmental banner, even though many of us care just as much about caring for the outdoors. Even the land managers who are pro-bike have to deal with the zealots, convoluted laws, interminable process and endless layers of review.

    So say we have an open forum, and a bunch of us come to some agreement. Where does that get us with the folks who won't sit down, or the agency folks hamstrung by the above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg
    And how would that be different from what we do amongst ourselves?

    Personnally, while I think it'd be fun and entertaining, I highly doubt that it'd yield anything positive. Plenty of advocates have made overtures to the other side before, and everytime they were met by a "no thanks" (that's the nice version of it). Frankly, in the bay area, the other side owns the trails and definitely does not want to share them unless they have to (as seen in every meeting about opening up a new trail).

    I think that it'd be better if we invited ourselves to hiker, Sierra Club, horsey people forums and went to debate there. Probably the same result. To the OP, why don't you link to the usual anti crowd forums so that we know where to go?

    I'll post some links to forums like you suggested. The main thing I'm trying to accomplish is to offer a online option that is similar to public hearings. It can be on here or on another venue or numerous sites.

  20. #20
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    No vote for me.

    We can't even get along in a civil manner in threads among ourselves, advertising that is useless. When I see this community gel better as far as goals and cooperation, maybe then.

    I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    Since they're here already, my vote is a yes---let's get them out of the closet.

    FWIW, I'm a member of the Sierra Club and I think the Sierra Club sucks---a more hypocritical organization would be hard to find. Being a member there gives me power to challenge this hypocrisy.

    I would like to thank you for letting people know your a Sierra Club member.

    If you have any ideas about how to deal with the Sierra Club, I would be interested in knowing what they are. You seemed to hint you thought there was a way to deal with them from within.

    Do you think there is anyone you know there that might be able to work out some deal with mt bikers. If mt bikers helped them with a pet project of theirs, would anyone there be able to get some support from them for opening up a trail somewhere?

    I see that they have some group bike rides. Is there any way that might be used as a way to have some mutually sponsored event of some type?
    Last edited by Road-Kill; 08-27-2010 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drtboodha
    Enough of us, and the HAVE to listen. They are OUR elected officials.
    I agree with the numbers. I wrote some suggestions in the thread on "poaching" on what I think is needed to build those numbers. In my opinion, arguing on the internet isn't going to build community; it just occassionaly turns up interesting ideas.

    OUR elected officials and everyone else's as well.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road-Kill

    Do you think there is anyone you know there that might be able to work out some deal with mt bikers. If mt bikers helped them with a pet project of theirs, would anyone there be able to get some support from them for opening up a trail somewhere?

    I see that they have some group bike rides. Is there any way that might be used as a way to have some mutually sponsored event of some type?
    Road kill, this wasn't addressed to me, but I can shed some light on your questions. The Sierra Club is a member organization, organized into local chapters. Send them your member dues and you get a vote.

  24. #24
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    35 years too late

    Quote Originally Posted by Road-Kill
    I would like to thank you for letting people know your a Sierra Club member.

    If you have any ideas about how to deal with the Sierra Club, I would be interested in knowing what they are. You seemed to hint you thought there was a way to deal with them from within.

    Do you think there is anyone you know there that might be able to work out some deal with mt bikers. If mt bikers helped them with a pet project of theirs, would anyone there be able to get some support from them for opening up a trail somewhere?

    I see that have some group bike rides. Is there any way that might be used as a way to have some mutually sponsored event of some type?
    The extent of my involvement with the Sierra Club is that I pay my membership, read the newsletters, grit my teeth---see my other post RE Sierra Club hypocrisy. The Sierra Club has done some great stuff but also some very sucky stuff. Politics can make for some strange bedfellows.

    My socializing with other Sierra Club members was something that happened 30~35 years ago, I have friends that are ex-members. I have no "inside track" but I'm confident that I could have a pro-bike dialog with the Sierra Club, but not one that would please this Norcal contingent of MTBR. As I've learned lately, the degrees of separation are just too great. Too much hatred in both camps.

    I'll say it again, I've got other fish to fry....
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    As I've learned lately, the degrees of separation are just too great. Too much hatred in both camps.

    I'll say it again, I've got other fish to fry....
    There's not as many haters here as they would like you to believe. They are just like bullies anywhere else, you just need kick a few of their butts and the rest will disappear. The mere mention of the Sierra Club had most of them with their tails between their legs and looking for the nearest place to hide.

    If you look at the thread count info on page views, you will see that usually most people just read the info here and don't post. The reasons people don't post in some cases, is because of the nature of the environment here.

    I don't know if it is coincidence or what motivated you to mention you were a Sierra Club member, but I don't think you would have been as likely to do so a week ago. So that's a big improvement in the environment in just a few days.

    The reasons I'm trying to get people to vote on ideas is simply to help deal with the negative environment here. Everyone get's a equal say that votes, the haters get one vote if they participate in the process and no say if they don't.

    It really doesn't matter what the outcome of the vote is really. It's just an attempt to give everyone here a equal say on ideas. If people can vote on inviting guest here, they can vote on other ideas too if they want. That seems a easier way to reach a consensus ,than the way things are now where flamewars are started anytime anyone falls out of line.

    Like you, I don't have any fish to fry on the cause. I still should be able to post here when I feel like it. and I am not willing to let these haters try and shout me down anytime I do.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    I have no "inside track" but I'm confident that I could have a pro-bike dialog with the Sierra Club, but not one that would please this Norcal contingent of MTBR.

    That's sounds like a good idea to me,at least. This is a large group of people here so there is no way you are going to get everyone to agree on anything.

    This dialog you speak of. Is this something you are willing to do on your own already. Is it just a matter of some people here asking you to do it?

    Are there any ideas you have that won't take too much effort on peoples part, that might have a way of helping?

    If people here would post on the Sierra Club web site, do you think that would help or hurt?

  27. #27
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    i say we form a lynch mob, pitchforks, torches and all, and go after the sierra club!

    would probably be more productive than inviting a biased group to argue on our site. plus everyone loves a good angry mob.

  28. #28
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    Join the Sierra Club???

    Quote Originally Posted by Road-Kill
    That's sounds like a good idea to me,at least. This is a large group of people here so there is no way you are going to get everyone to agree on anything.

    This dialog you speak of. Is this something you are willing to do on your own already. Is it just a matter of some people here asking you to do it?

    Are there any ideas you have that won't take too much effort on peoples part, that might have a way of helping?

    If people here would post on the Sierra Club web site, do you think that would help or hurt?
    To answer your questions in reverse order; If one wishes to join the Sierra Club the membership donation starts at $15.00---then you can post on their forums, blogs,etc. If enough MTBers did this and WERE CIVIL WHEN DOING SO it certainly would help. It's amazing how tiny the Sierra Club online community is (I'm only a lurker there) compared to MTBR.

    Combining the first two ?'s, If a dozen or so MTBers would come forth (join?) in my local chapter (Loma Prieta Chapter) I would "come out of the closet" and see what could be instigated. I'd really like to see MROSD taken down a few notches for starters. I'd like to see the MROSD land in Santa Clara County transferred to the much more bike-friendly SCCOSA---if this had Sierra Club backing it might have a chance.

    I can hardly wait to see the comments on this post!
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    i say we form a lynch mob, pitchforks, torches and all, and go after the sierra club!

    would probably be more productive than inviting a biased group to argue on our site. plus everyone loves a good angry mob.
    Any wonder why some MTBers have a bad reputation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    To answer your questions in reverse order; If one wishes to join the Sierra Club the membership donation starts at $15.00---then you can post on their forums, blogs,etc. If enough MTBers did this and WERE CIVIL WHEN DOING SO it certainly would help. It's amazing how tiny the Sierra Club online community is (I'm only a lurker there) compared to MTBR.

    Combining the first two ?'s, If a dozen or so MTBers would come forth (join?) in my local chapter (Loma Prieta Chapter) I would "come out of the closet" and see what could be instigated. I'd really like to see MROSD taken down a few notches for starters. I'd like to see the MROSD land in Santa Clara County transferred to the much more bike-friendly SCCOSA---if this had Sierra Club backing it might have a chance.

    I can hardly wait to see the comments on this post!
    I don't have a problem with sending. $15 to them and posting on their site. I'll post a link to the threads I start there after they are created.

    I can think of quite a lot of questions I could ask you and any other members of the club, that might uncloak themselves here. I think it's a important subject to discuss. Eventually you might just loose interest in answering them or I will wear you out. So let me know if that ever happens. The questions can be answered whenever you want. These threads are always active unless the moderator locks them for some reason.

    As you know most people just lurk here, so when someone post something here they probably represent a point of view that other people share too. A lot of times I will just take a position other than my own, just because someone needs the ask the question.

    Other members don't have to read the thread and can use the ignore function if they don't want to read other peoples comments. It's a lot more dramatic to tell others to shut up, so that seems to be the thing to do. Anyway that's all that I have for now. Hopefully someone else might have some questions for you too.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    Any wonder why some MTBers have a bad reputation?
    Those same people wonder about your sense of humor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    Road kill, this wasn't addressed to me, but I can shed some light on your questions. The Sierra Club is a member organization, organized into local chapters. Send them your member dues and you get a vote.
    Ok, so for the Sierra Club to support a project.do they vote on it locally and it gets their support. Or does it have to go through some national bureaucracy?

    If they have voted on anything related to trail access recently, do you know the percentage of support for and against the issue. If it's 90% against and 10% in favor or if it's 60% - 40%., the end result would the same of them not supporting it. So knowing the percentages would be of more value than just knowing a issue didn't get their support.

    Do you know the number of members that vote locally or a way to get access to that data? Is this public information or private?

  33. #33
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    331
    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    Since they're here already, my vote is a yes---let's get them out of the closet.

    You say they are here already. That's not a surprise to a lot of people.

    Do you know if the post here are printed out and discussed at their meetings? Are they here to get a idea of what mt bikers think or are they here just to get ammo to use against bikers?

    A lot of what's posted here would make it easy for a few people in the organization to stereotype all mt bikers as outlaws. If that's the case, it might sense for bikers to do something to show not all mt bikers are impossible to work with.

    If some money, even a token amount was donated to the Sierra Club each month. And it was specified it was from mt bikers, do you think that would win any goodwill with the Sierra Club?

    The more options people have, the easier it will be for people to do something if they want. The people that want to ignore the Sierra Club don't have to do anything, but if someone did want to try something they should have some options.

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