Tamarancho trail work- WTF?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Tamarancho trail work- WTF?

    A significant amount of trail work has been done at Tamo recently, and while I greatly appreciate the work of the trail builders to maintain the trails, I can't help but comment on the significant reduction/destruction of numerous technical features on the loop. I appreciate that there is a lot of traffic and when it's wet the trail gets rutted and eroded pretty fast, but most of the technical features that were filled in or removed were rock, which isn't affected by water. In fact, the section of trail that is the biggest eroded mud pit is Alchemist, which hasn't been touched. Seems like a bit of misplaced effort, and a shame that a lot of those interesting technical features are gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    A significant amount of trail work has been done at Tamo recently, and while I greatly appreciate the work of the trail builders to maintain the trails, I can't help but comment on the significant reduction/destruction of numerous technical features on the loop. I appreciate that there is a lot of traffic and when it's wet the trail gets rutted and eroded pretty fast, but most of the technical features that were filled in or removed were rock, which isn't affected by water. In fact, the section of trail that is the biggest eroded mud pit is Alchemist, which hasn't been touched. Seems like a bit of misplaced effort, and a shame that a lot of those interesting technical features are gone.
    Same thing happening in SCruz. The full suspension crowd is removing many technical features. I once bunny hopped a 12" log-Gone. I once rode over baby heads-Gone. That root section where you needed to pick a line - Gone... gone gone gone.......... what remains are bowling alley trails.

    Disappointed when I master technical feature, then some full suspension rider makes it bowling alley......

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    Hasn't that been the pattern at Tamo for a long time? It's one of the reasons I haven't been in years. Used to get the annual pass...

    It might be the work of the Full Suspension Gang. They're also probably responsible for knocking off that bank in Annadel.

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    I feel like this thread could be merged with the Sawpit thread...
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    the full suspension crowd? wtf? are you just trying to out yourself as a gray hair rigid bike retrogrouch or something

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    The correlation between full-suspension riders and the desire to dumb down tech features is non-sensical.

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    Was very saddened to see the destruction on Saturday. Looked like someone took a jack-hammer or dynamite to a few of the rock formations. Just piles of gravel where the formations used to be.

    Does anyone know who is responsible? Who gets to make decisions like this for Tamarancho? The boy scouts?

    Seems absurd to suggest it's the full suspension riders, but maybe that's just an inside joke I'm not aware of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    The correlation between full-suspension riders and the desire to dumb down tech features is non-sensical.
    Seriously -- looking at Bicycle Retailer, full-suspension bikes are nearly 90% of the market.

    So he blaming.... everybody?
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    Ahh, Winter... Tis the season for getting out on the trails and giving back to the mountain biking community by doing trail work!

    Reminds me of an Op-Ed I read once here

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    Yeah, the trend to transform everything to novice flow trails is sad. I think flow trails are more dangerous because people ride much faster. There is a trail I ride that is super tight, technical and twisty which is very challenging, but can't go super fast because it is just too twisty. I think trails should be build like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xtrwin View Post
    Seems absurd to suggest it's the full suspension riders, but maybe that's just an inside joke I'm not aware of?
    I think the OP's identity as a tough-as-nails old skool hardtail gnar rider is interfering in a confusing way with his actual point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nilswalk View Post
    I think the OP's identity as a tough-as-nails old skool hardtail gnar rider is interfering in a confusing way with his actual point.
    I'm the OP, and I'm not an old school hardtail rider; I have no idea where that came from. I ride a FS bike like most people do. Anyway, I emailed the BSA that runs the trail maintenance program at Tamo, and here's what response was:

    When the trail loop was completed, 20 years ago, there were fewer exposed rocks, ruts and roots than there are now. Due to use and water erosion the trails have gotten more technical over the years.

    For some riders, such as yourself, you enjoy the challenges of these technical sections. For other riders, Tamarancho is too difficult to enjoy, and they appreciate the ďsanitizingĒ of the trails.

    For the trail crew this has been an ongoing struggle to balance these two different points of view, over the past 20 years of ongoing trail work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    I'm the OP, and I'm not an old school hardtail rider; I have no idea where that came from. I ride a FS bike like most people do. Anyway, I emailed the BSA that runs the trail maintenance program at Tamo, and here's what response was:

    When the trail loop was completed, 20 years ago, there were fewer exposed rocks, ruts and roots than there are now. Due to use and water erosion the trails have gotten more technical over the years.

    For some riders, such as yourself, you enjoy the challenges of these technical sections. For other riders, Tamarancho is too difficult to enjoy, and they appreciate the ďsanitizingĒ of the trails.

    For the trail crew this has been an ongoing struggle to balance these two different points of view, over the past 20 years of ongoing trail work.
    Fair enough response from the scouts, I guess.

    I've been riding Tamarancho since I moved here in 2006 though, and in my view it has definitely NOT gotten more technical. It was never more than a blue, but now more of a green, IMO. Would be curious what other folks think RE: the progression of Tamarancho trail difficulty over the last 15-20 years.

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    Tamarancho trail work- WTF?

    Itís a gravel bike conspiracy. They are sneaking out there at night.

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    Bikes are getting better and more capable every year. It makes no sense to dumb down trails..

    Also, since when are trails required to be 100% rideable by ALL riders? When you aim for the lowest common denominator you are alienating a large portion of riders who regularly come and PAY MONEY TO RIDE GOOD TRAILS.
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    why are trails getting dumber at the same time bikes are getting more capable? this trend should be going in the opposite direction. soon I will just ride by gravel bike everywhere

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Bikes are getting better and more capable every year. It makes no sense to dumb down trails..

    Also, since when are trails required to be 100% rideable by ALL riders? When you aim for the lowest common denominator you are alienating a large portion of riders who regularly come and PAY MONEY TO RIDE GOOD TRAILS.
    I agree. But also our expectation of trails has increased. Trails that were "challenging" even 10 years ago are considered intermediate now. I was watching some old DH videos from the 90's the other day, pretty comical.

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    a couple things that the volunteers* are trying to balance here: minimizing erosion and limiting trail width, fun vs safety, maintaining a trail that is fun for both beginners and experts. Use this context in forming your opinions about all maintenance modifications.

    *no one is getting paid to help out on trail days, $5/day isn't "good money" to ride on private property, these funds go to BSA not the volunteer trail teams. Don't think it is worth it? go ride the public fireroads or what the various land managers here call trails.

    Try underbiking tamo? Yep, it's all pretty easy when you are on your expensive 6" super-enduro bike but can you maintain the same speed and flow on your hardtail or XC rig?

    I was not present but the work area for Saturday was in a location where people were choosing to ride around the rock feature on the downhill side and widening the trail, the loose rocks and soil from this off trail riding was starting to collect below and flowing into the section of trail below that. In this case work was done to minimize erosion and keep trail width down.

    People riding around obstacles and widening the trail is something that happens in every riding location (PNW, East Coast, SoCal, NorCal, Southwest etc) and is a major problem for people who like more challenging riding. Even the smallest obstacles like spaghetti roots or even rock armoring make both beginners and experts feel out the path of least resistance for their tires.

    We take your opinions and feedback seriously but it is important to appreciate what you have at Tamarancho. Want to see changes? We need more trail volunteers to come out that actually ride these trails and enjoy the challenge. Your opinions mean a lot more to use if you are standing there with a shovel instead of taking pot shots from behind an anonymous forum handle.

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    As much as you can complain about Tamarancho, at least it isn't Skeggs.

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    Not commenting on this particular situation, more on the ethics of building a high-use trail: personally, as a trailbuilder, I'm not building anything someone's likely to have a life-altering injury on. Likewise, if I identify something on the trail that could do that, I will remove it. There are multiple factors in this -- the level of use, the type of users, whether you can turn certain users away if their skill level is too low (or keep them off the dangerous features, squirrel catchers and the like). But, to me, building anything remotely technical in an urban area in the SF Bay Area, your stuff is going to get ridden so much by people who have no business riding it, sooner or later someone's going to get broken off. I'm not talking about rock gardens which seems to be the subject of the particular issue in Tamarancho, hard to get paralyzed there with how flat it is, I'm talking about high log bridges, big gap jumps and the like.... I just couldn't sleep at night if someone became disabled, or worse dead, directly because of something I built. I don't judge those who do, I think there's value in having big features and don't think they should be banned, I think people get to take their own risks -- but personally, I don't feel good about giving people the opportunity to take these risks. And with the level of use we get on many trails here, if a dumb accident can happen, it will. So when asked why are trails getting sanitized as bikes get better -- it's because of the explosion of population and the sport to me.

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    rode there yesterday. Was bummed they totally removed a few of the hard parts on serpentine. next thing you know, theyll remove The Rock entirely.

    Not really understanding the full suspension correlation. having a big full sus bike at tamarancho makes me want to charge through chunky stuff faster. if you want a 10 mile flow trail, just ride the flow trail over and over again.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    I'm the OP, and I'm not an old school hardtail rider; I have no idea where that came from. I ride a FS bike like most people do. Anyway, I emailed the BSA that runs the trail maintenance program at Tamo, and here's what response was:

    When the trail loop was completed, 20 years ago, there were fewer exposed rocks, ruts and roots than there are now. Due to use and water erosion the trails have gotten more technical over the years.

    For some riders, such as yourself, you enjoy the challenges of these technical sections. For other riders, Tamarancho is too difficult to enjoy, and they appreciate the ďsanitizingĒ of the trails.

    For the trail crew this has been an ongoing struggle to balance these two different points of view, over the past 20 years of ongoing trail work.
    The FS remark was from gonzo, who appears to be adept at high=level trolling:

    "Same thing happening in SCruz. The full suspension crowd is removing many technical features. I once bunny hopped a 12" log-Gone. I once rode over baby heads-Gone. That root section where you needed to pick a line - Gone... gone gone gone.......... what remains are bowling alley trails.

    Disappointed when I master technical feature, then some full suspension rider makes it bowling alley...... "

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post

    Try underbiking tamo? Yep, it's all pretty easy when you are on your expensive 6" super-enduro bike but can you maintain the same speed and flow on your hardtail or XC rig?
    Not everyone can afford an additional downcountry underbike despite what the industry is telling us we need next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Not everyone can afford an additional downcountry underbike despite what the industry is telling us we need next.
    What?? You don't have a custom steel lugged downcountry underbike??

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Not everyone can afford an additional downcountry underbike despite what the industry is telling us we need next.
    not what i'm saying, but think about it when you are on that $7,500 Pivot Firebird 29er super bike and are complaining that the trails are just too easy or boring for you.

    It sucks that we can't have another fully legal single track loop out here so that we could have a chill flowy beginner loop for those that want that and a more intermediate/advanced loop for others. But the reality is that until someone steps up to make that happen we have to make the Tamarancho loop work for both camps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    What?? You don't have a custom steel lugged downcountry underbike??
    Hello. Thank you for having me at your meeting. My name is DH40 and I've been an overbiker for nearly 20 years........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    not what i'm saying, but think about it when you are on that $7,500 Pivot Firebird 29er super bike and are complaining that the trails are just too easy or boring for you.

    It sucks that we can't have another fully legal single track loop out here so that we could have a chill flowy beginner loop for those that want that and a more intermediate/advanced loop for others. But the reality is that until someone steps up to make that happen we have to make the Tamarancho loop work for both camps.
    Just having a little fun, mate. I like Tamarancho for what it is (was?) and I don't mind pushing a rather inefficient bike around that lovely little loop any chance I get. I can get in way over my head at other places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    not what i'm saying, but think about it when you are on that $7,500 Pivot Firebird 29er super bike and are complaining that the trails are just too easy or boring for you.

    It sucks that we can't have another fully legal single track loop out here so that we could have a chill flowy beginner loop for those that want that and a more intermediate/advanced loop for others. But the reality is that until someone steps up to make that happen we have to make the Tamarancho loop work for both camps.
    Your snarky attitude and replies are not surprising considering you're advocating dumbing down trails that already are not challenging. For God's sake, let the beginners walk 5% of the loop. Taking out all the technical stuff doesn't make it work for both camps.

    "go ride the public fireroads" "ride a different bike" "$5 is not good money" - all a-hole replies!
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    Letís complain about unpaid volunteers!

    No, no please. Please donít bother to actually come out to a trail work day and help. Itís totally beneath you. Totally!

    Never change guys. I love you all


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Letís complain about unpaid volunteers!

    No, no please. Please donít bother to actually come out to a trail work day and help. Itís totally beneath you. Totally!

    Never change guys. I love you all


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    People who couldn't hack living here aren't aloud to comment on the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    People who couldn't hack living here aren't aloud to comment on the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Kisses sweety pie


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    I am actually joking and I'm jealous you live somewhere that is actually cool for riding bikes.
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    Joe, the problem in this case was the beginners weren't just walking the sections they couldn't ride they were just riding off the side of the trail to avoid the challenge and at the same time causing erosion issues.

    Yes, what an a-hole I am, I've personally lost count of the hours I've spent volunteering on the trails around all around Marin for zero compensation over the last decade. You are entitled to nothing, want to see a change? go out and make it happen. Volunteer to build some trail or coach some beginner riders, let them know it is okay to walk features and that riding off trail is bad. Take some time to show them how to do it and teach them the skills they need to get through the features you like to ride on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Hello. Thank you for having me at your meeting. My name is DH40 and I've been an overbiker for nearly 20 years........
    At our meeting next week we'll cover: typewriters, beards, leg tattoos and we will all read from the Urban Dictionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    Joe, the problem in this case was the beginners weren't just walking the sections they couldn't ride they were just riding off the side of the trail to avoid the challenge and at the same time causing erosion issues.

    Yes, what an a-hole I am, I've personally lost count of the hours I've spent volunteering on the trails around all around Marin for zero compensation over the last decade. You are entitled to nothing, want to see a change? go out and make it happen. Volunteer to build some trail or coach some beginner riders, let them know it is okay to walk features and that riding off trail is bad. Take some time to show them how to do it and teach them the skills they need to get through the features you like to ride on.
    I've got my hands full doing all those things in the east bay, sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    I am actually joking and I'm jealous you live somewhere that is actually cool for riding bikes.
    I wasnít even going to go there. Ha.

    But I was joking too.

    Really tho, since I left Spindeltron is the lone homie holding it down at Endor.

    Mad props Spindeltron.

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  37. #37
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    I hate this argument about volunteers. just because people are working for free doesnt mean they should destroy the trail. just showing up for trail work doesnt mean you can make the trail as gnarly as you want. the work is directed by someone and that person or organization wants the trails dumbed down. paid labor or not and showing up or not is irrelevant to the point being made. why does the organization think that dumbing down the trails is a good idea and how do we change it?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    A significant amount of trail work has been done at Tamo recently, and while I greatly appreciate the work of the trail builders to maintain the trails, I can't help but comment on the significant reduction/destruction of numerous technical features on the loop. I appreciate that there is a lot of traffic and when it's wet the trail gets rutted and eroded pretty fast, but most of the technical features that were filled in or removed were rock, which isn't affected by water. In fgact, the section of trail that is the biggest eroded mud pit is Alchemist, which hasn't been touched. Seems like a bit of misplaced effort, and a shame that a lot of those interesting technical features are gone.
    Which portions of trail have had the trail work done? I was out there two weeks ago and didnít notice anything...except the mud

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    I rode Tamarancho today for the first time in about six months to see what the fuss was about. I only noticed modifications on Serpentine. The reroute above the 'double black' doesn't bother me at all, when compared to the rutted mess that is the old lower line. I noticed that the rock garden near the top was also gone, but I just assumed it was filled in. Apparently it was almost completely removed. Yeah, this is a bit of a foul. Perhaps a few rocks could've been moved or dirt could've been added to mitigate the erosion. I'll echo what others have said and say that if you can't ride it, walk it and get over it.

    On another note, I rode my new DV9 today and had a bit of an epiphany about the riding around here. Many of our legal trails were built in the 90's. Back then, wheelbases were shorter and head angles were steeper. Our trails were designed with old school bikes in mind. Perhaps this is why I had so much fun and was whipping around the switchbacks like never before on a short wheelbase hardtail. Just a thought, but Tamarancho and some of the other local trails (Water Dog, parts of CC, Skeggs) aren't that suited to modern bikes. I'm only really talking about bikes from the last two years or so. Just look at the Tallboy 4. It's ridiculous. It would likely be a total sled at Tamarancho, even though it's a short travel bike. However it would probably be fun at highway 9, Demo, or Annadel.

    The dream of the 90's is alive in NorCal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    I've got my hands full doing all those things in the east bay, sorry.
    *complains about snarky comments and attitude*
    *continues to do "all those things" but in the east bay, apparently*

    why are you complaining about tamarancho if you can ride all your volunteering work in the east bay? kind of pointless.

    Rode it again this afternoon. aside from serpentine, its not all that different and the parts that are challenging are still there. If i could wish for one thing, it'd be for a chainsaw on b17, as being 6'2 gets a little hairy under the fallen trees haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by SikeMo View Post
    I rode Tamarancho today for the first time in about six months to see what the fuss was about. I only noticed modifications on Serpentine. The reroute above the 'double black' doesn't bother me at all, when compared to the rutted mess that is the old lower line. I noticed that the rock garden near the top was also gone, but I just assumed it was filled in. Apparently it was almost completely removed. Yeah, this is a bit of a foul. Perhaps a few rocks could've been moved or dirt could've been added to mitigate the erosion. I'll echo what others have said and say that if you can't ride it, walk it and get over it.

    On another note, I rode my new DV9 today and had a bit of an epiphany about the riding around here. Many of our legal trails were built in the 90's. Back then, wheelbases were shorter and head angles were steeper. Our trails were designed with old school bikes in mind. Perhaps this is why I had so much fun and was whipping around the switchbacks like never before on a short wheelbase hardtail. Just a thought, but Tamarancho and some of the other local trails (Water Dog, parts of CC, Skeggs) aren't that suited to modern bikes. I'm only really talking about bikes from the last two years or so. Just look at the Tallboy 4. It's ridiculous. It would likely be a total sled at Tamarancho, even though it's a short travel bike. However it would probably be fun at highway 9, Demo, or Annadel.

    The dream of the 90's is alive in NorCal.
    Youíre not wrong...


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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    At our meeting next week we'll cover: typewriters, beards, leg tattoos and we will all read from the Urban Dictionary.
    HAHAHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by SikeMo View Post
    I rode Tamarancho today for the first time in about six months to see what the fuss was about. I only noticed modifications on Serpentine. The reroute above the 'double black' doesn't bother me at all, when compared to the rutted mess that is the old lower line. I noticed that the rock garden near the top was also gone, but I just assumed it was filled in. Apparently it was almost completely removed. Yeah, this is a bit of a foul. Perhaps a few rocks could've been moved or dirt could've been added to mitigate the erosion. I'll echo what others have said and say that if you can't ride it, walk it and get over it.

    On another note, I rode my new DV9 today and had a bit of an epiphany about the riding around here. Many of our legal trails were built in the 90's. Back then, wheelbases were shorter and head angles were steeper. Our trails were designed with old school bikes in mind. Perhaps this is why I had so much fun and was whipping around the switchbacks like never before on a short wheelbase hardtail. Just a thought, but Tamarancho and some of the other local trails (Water Dog, parts of CC, Skeggs) aren't that suited to modern bikes. I'm only really talking about bikes from the last two years or so. Just look at the Tallboy 4. It's ridiculous. It would likely be a total sled at Tamarancho, even though it's a short travel bike. However it would probably be fun at highway 9, Demo, or Annadel.

    The dream of the 90's is alive in NorCal.
    Hence the rise of the "Enduro-pivot" move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Hence the rise of the "Enduro-pivot" move.
    If only I was that skilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyDadSucks View Post
    *complains about snarky comments and attitude*
    *continues to do "all those things" but in the east bay, apparently*

    why are you complaining about tamarancho if you can ride all your volunteering work in the east bay? kind of pointless.

    Rode it again this afternoon. aside from serpentine, its not all that different and the parts that are challenging are still there. If i could wish for one thing, it'd be for a chainsaw on b17, as being 6'2 gets a little hairy under the fallen trees haha
    So because I spend most of my time advocating for the trails that are in my backyard, I don't have a say about the dumbing down of a classic ride that people love for it's slightly more technical nature. Hmmmm.

    Yeah I spend 90% of my time riding in the east bay and I ride Tamarancho only a few times a year - but I'd still like to think that my yearly pass that I don't even get the full value of isn't going toward trail destruction.

    Any other BS arguments anyone wants to throw out?
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

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    Tamarancho trail work- WTF?-untitled-8.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    So because I spend most of my time advocating for the trails that are in my backyard, I don't have a say about the dumbing down of a classic ride that people love for it's slightly more technical nature. Hmmmm.

    Yeah I spend 90% of my time riding in the east bay and I ride Tamarancho only a few times a year - but I'd still like to think that my yearly pass that I don't even get the full value of isn't going toward trail destruction.

    Any other BS arguments anyone wants to throw out?
    you're being snarky and rude (as per usual) about trails, and then when invited to go and actually help out with the trail work on the trails you're complaining about, you're too busy with other trails.
    as a "frequent volunteer" you should also already know that your yearly pass fees hardly factor into trail work at all.

    seems like you're dishing out enough BS for everyone!

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    Tamo has been better for gravel bikes than actual MTBs since before the gravel bike trend started. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYLRFWX6pf4

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    I went out there yesterday prompted by this thread but broke a spoke early in the ride ó decided that was a sign to bail out.

    Alchemist was a bit slick and mushy in spots.

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    Love these "don't dumb down the trails" rants that somebody invariably posts after other people are generous with their time and volunteer to work on the local trails.

    The "dumbing down" fixes are sometimes necessary because as somebody said, people start riding workarounds, which is ultimately worse than removal of that feature.

    And let's be honest, there AREN'T any features or moves at Tamarancho that significantly change the ride. If you're basing the satisfaction of your whole ride on a couple of roots or maybe a rock move, then maybe the issue is with you and not the trail. The top of Eldridge has way more "tech" than Tamarancho combined. Go ride that!

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    Most people dislike change of any kind in their comfy life, including their trails... without realizing trails are constantly changing throughout the month, year, decade. And with whatever changes were done, it will continue to change over time.

    Its like the people that cry about how wide and boring a brand new 4' wide machine cut trail looks... but usually a year later, the singletrack wears in and the real estate on either side fills in with grasses, leaves, etc. and people seem to love the new trail.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfmtber View Post
    Love these "don't dumb down the trails" rants that somebody invariably posts after other people are generous with their time and volunteer to work on the local trails.

    The "dumbing down" fixes are sometimes necessary because as somebody said, people start riding workarounds, which is ultimately worse than removal of that feature.

    And let's be honest, there AREN'T any features or moves at Tamarancho that significantly change the ride. If you're basing the satisfaction of your whole ride on a couple of roots or maybe a rock move, then maybe the issue is with you and not the trail. The top of Eldridge has way more "tech" than Tamarancho combined. Go ride that!
    I was about to say "but you can't drive to the start of Eldridge" and then I remembered the little turnout at the top of Railroad Grade.

    Riding the MCBC dirt fondo, I was very jealous of all the gravel bike riders. Then we hit Eldridge, and I passed a whole bunch of them picking their way down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    I was about to say "but you can't drive to the start of Eldridge" and then I remembered the little turnout at the top of Railroad Grade.

    Riding the MCBC dirt fondo, I was very jealous of all the gravel bike riders. Then we hit Eldridge, and I passed a whole bunch of them picking their way down.
    Maybe they were just obeying the 15mph 'speed' limit. In any event, that trail's mother smelt of elderberry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfmtber View Post
    The top of Eldridge has way more "tech" than Tamarancho combined. Go ride that!
    That's simply wrong. The top of Eldridge is a fire road and has a couple of hundred yards of a minor rock garden and that's it. In fact, it's so nominal that the rangers regularly drive over it in their trucks. No jumps, drops, ledges, or anything else more technical than a grapefruit sized rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    That's simply wrong. The top of Eldridge is a fire road and has a couple of hundred yards of a minor rock garden and that's it. In fact, it's so nominal that the rangers regularly drive over it in their trucks. No jumps, drops, ledges, or anything else more technical than a grapefruit sized rock.
    Thank you for proving my point! And Tamarancho has none of this either save for the one rock drop on Serpentine, 50 yard rock garden on Wagon Wheel, and maybe 1 or 2 root beds on Broken Dam. And it's more than a couple hundred yards of a rock garden. If Tamarancho was as wide as Eldridge, you could rive it in Prius....

    I'm just saying that bitching about a change to 1% of trail, if that, is mind boggling to me especially for a trail that is not technical to begin with.

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    Some excellent logic continuing to flow in this thread.

    We "shouldn't criticize the work of volunteers". Who cares if they do a hack job, THEY DONATED THEIR TIME!!!!1!

    Show up to volunteer and you can change the outcome of the trail work despite the fact that the trail crew came out to this trail work day with an agenda.

    "Tamarancho isn't that technical anyway, so who cares if we remove the few technical features that exist to so there's no longer even a remote challenge for competent riders"
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

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    I hate to burst your bubble but Tamarancho is not that technical and the one feature that is technical (the little rock move on Serpentine) has not been touched in years. And for the record, no I can't clear that move but whatever, I sleep well at night...

    And yes, who cares about "competent" riders as it compares to the overall health of the trail and the longetivity of it.

    I'm blow away how somebody can tie so much of their ride satisfaction to 1 or 2 moves on a trail system that has 8 miles of trail. If somebody bulldozed the flow trail and made it flat for it's length, then yes, that would be something to complain about. Complaining about somebody filling in a rooty section with gravel once a year, THAT's GOING TO ERODE AGAIN ANYWAY, is really irritating and doesn't show alot of perspective.

    Do I wish Tamarancho was more technical... or that more technical trails existed in Marin. Sure, of course I do. But I'm not going to complain about the legal trail we have and any efforts that are made to maintain it regardless of whether the trail has been "dumbed down". And even if they are dumbed down, I'm going to be happy I can ride there because ultimately it's about riding my bike in the woods

    As for the volunteers. It's not like they're being led by somebody who has no idea about Tamarancho. Most of the trail work days, if not all trail work days, are led by people with history of the trails who care about the trail system. I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing and are considering the trail health when deciding what to fix and what to leave alone.

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    Dude, my original post was pretty balanced and calm. You're the one getting "blown away", "irritated", and shouting. Go for a ride and relax; you'll live longer.

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    So posting to an internet forum with "WTF" in the title, and complaining about trail work done, is calm and balanced?

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    I think you should have to actually go to a trail work day at Tamo before you complain about it on the internet. You'd learn a lot about the trails just by hauling a wheelbarrow with Fairfaxian and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    I think you should have to actually go to a trail work day at Tamo before you complain about it on the internet. You'd learn a lot about the trails just by hauling a wheelbarrow with Fairfaxian and others.

    Jim Jacobsen is the one who maintains the trails at Tamaracho. Everything is done for practicality. Thatís it. What will last the longest before getting fixed again. Itís the only criteria. Heís a great person and you can learn a lot from him.

    The most important thing to understand about Tamarancho is the greater context of Marin and how that effects the opportunity for anything cool:

    Just the very real fear that the trails can be shut down by the county affects every aspect of the continued upkeep of the trails. That and the sad fact that there are so few places to ride in Marin. There is a huge pressure for Tamaracho to be everything to every rider at every ability level. No trail network can accommodate that.

    I didnít even realize a lot of this until I moved to a functional trails community. The problem arenít the few good people who volunteer at Tamaracho. The problem is the community that Tamaracho is in.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    The problem arenít the few good people who volunteer at Tamaracho. The problem is the community that Tamaracho is in.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    A significant amount of trail work has been done at Tamo recently, and while I greatly appreciate the work of the trail builders to maintain the trails, I can't help but comment on the significant reduction/destruction of numerous technical features on the loop. I appreciate that there is a lot of traffic and when it's wet the trail gets rutted and eroded pretty fast, but most of the technical features that were filled in or removed were rock, which isn't affected by water. In fact, the section of trail that is the biggest eroded mud pit is Alchemist, which hasn't been touched. Seems like a bit of misplaced effort, and a shame that a lot of those interesting technical features are gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    Derp derp...pretty balanced and calm. You're the one getting "blown away", "irritated", and shouting. Go for a ride and relax; you'll live longer.
    Bruh you rust made the perfect response for you OP! Go for a ride and relax or walk your favorite local trail and check out some drainage issues that are developing.

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    Also work is going down on Alchemist at 9AM this Saturday. I expect the usual marin MTBR.com trailwork turnout, which is 0.

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    They'll all be too tired from riding illegal trails the night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlloyd007 View Post
    A significant amount of trail work has been done at Tamo recently, and while I greatly appreciate the work of the trail builders to maintain the trails, I can't help but comment on the significant reduction/destruction of numerous technical features on the loop. I appreciate that there is a lot of traffic and when it's wet the trail gets rutted and eroded pretty fast, but most of the technical features that were filled in or removed were rock, which isn't affected by water. In fact, the section of trail that is the biggest eroded mud pit is Alchemist, which hasn't been touched. Seems like a bit of misplaced effort, and a shame that a lot of those interesting technical features are gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    They'll all be too tired from riding illegal trails the night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    They'll all be too tired from riding illegal trails the night before.

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    Thanks to the volunteers for their work maintaining the trails.

    To those who are upset about ďsanitizing,Ē yes it is upsetting to lose that tricky rock section on Serpentine. But a longer-term view is necessary. In a year or two there will be new technical features forming.

    I remember the same hue and cry when the two tricky sections on Bayview in China Camp were cleaned up (one of which had cost a rider his life) and one rerouted entirely because it was a rooty mess. Now itís all forgotten and fine again, and the trail is lasting.

    The real problem is what Davey pointed out. Itís the community, which allows us only a ridiculously small number of legal MTB trails in proportion to the rider population.

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    I was out there yesterday...the trails are fine. I also rode the abandoned/new exit trail at Tamo...that thing needs some love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Meat View Post
    I also rode the abandoned/new exit trail at Tamo...
    Don't do that
    Thank you
    Have a nice day

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    I can't believe there hasn't been a mention about Strava riders wanting better times.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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