Tahoe Natl Forest: The Horsepeople are coming for your motorcycles- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Tahoe Natl Forest: The Horsepeople are coming for your motorcycles

    Oh, I mean e-bikes.


    California groups sue to keep motorized electric bikes off non-motorized trails in Tahoe National Forest

    Backcountry trail and forest groups in California joined together to challenge the U.S. Forest Service’s decision to allow motorized bikes to operate on non-motorized trails in the Tahoe National Forest.

    And by 'Backcountry trail and forest groups' they mean equestrian groups...

    Plaintiffs in the suit include the Gold Country Trails Council, Backcountry Horsemen of California, Back Country Horsemen of America, the Forest Issues Group and The Wilderness Society. The groups are represented by the Western Environmental Law Center.

    “The Forest Service cannot simply disregard its own rules when it comes to allowing electric bikes on nonmotorized trails on the Tahoe National Forest,” said Susan Jane Brown, attorney with the Western Environmental Law Center. “With this lawsuit, we seek to compel the agency to follow those rules.”


    In depth information on Tahoe National Forest suit over allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails - MOTHER LODE TRAILS
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    Remember those of us that said "a motor is a motor"?

    If this lawsuit is proven to have merit, and the USFS continues to insist that it can't distinguish between motorized and non-motorized bikes or enforce it's own regulations...want to guess what the next easiest option is?

    edit: To be clear, I have no love lost for the equestrian/hiking groups filing this suit. But the non-motorized argument seems valid.
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    Well, the Tahoe National Forest just completed a study on e-bikes. They found no negative impacts or conflicts with other user groups. The only real difference was greater diversity among cyclists regarding age groups and skill levels.
    Ride fast. Huck bravely. Waste no beer. Safety third.

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    From the few contacts I've had with the Backcountry Horsemen, they are very welcoming to mountain bikes, apparently they feel differently about e-bikes. Whaddya know?

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    A yearlong study on Boulder CO showed bikes actually go slightly slower than regular bikes.
    https://www.timescall.com/2019/10/07...roval-e-bikes/

    I was against e-bikes previously, but the data is just not showing they are a problem and I've changed my mind. Aren't 4x4s allowed Tahoe National Forest now? I don't go there, but we spend lots of time in nearby national forests and anything goes including off roading and guns! It is free America over there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    A yearlong study on Boulder CO showed bikes actually go slightly slower than regular bikes.
    https://www.timescall.com/2019/10/07...roval-e-bikes/

    I was against e-bikes previously, but the data is just not showing they are a problem and I've changed my mind. Aren't 4x4s allowed Tahoe National Forest now? I don't go there, but we spend lots of time in nearby national forests and anything goes including off roading and guns! It is free America over there.
    By default, non-motorized bikes can go anywhere in a national forest. Motorized vehicles are permitted only on designated OHV routes.

    Tahoe national forest decided to allow e-bikes on non-OHV routes. Where I mostly ride, sierra national forest, e-bikes are still not legally allowed on non-OHV routes.

  7. #7
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    Yeah I agree. Especially in the backcountry, the equestrians I've been met on my MTB have always been welcoming and nice.
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  8. #8
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    Is this an ebike? It is, right? I mean, cost less than my current bike with no battery... Hmm..

    https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx

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    Wow, that looks fun. Love to try one.

    The e-bike and motorcycle categories are rapidly merging -- I didn't realize they were merging so quickly.
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    'Oh, come on, let me ride my E-moped-bike in a NF, I'm fat, have a bum knee, not as fit as I used to be, I have bronchitis, I'm old, can't see as well, but I still want to boost my ego by going on epic long rides with the help of a motor instead of getting healthy and fit, or accept the fact I can't go on epic long rides anymore, it isn't a motor, really it is a bike, its the new deal, the tide is changing, everyone is doing it, you just have to try it'.........

    Still has a motor.

  11. #11
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    Ebikes are definitely the same thing as dirt bikes. Just watch this video. I'm betting a skilled horseback rider could do it faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motosc View Post
    'Oh, come on, let me ride my E-moped-bike in a NF, I'm fat, have a bum knee, not as fit as I used to be, I have bronchitis, I'm old, can't see as well, but I still want to boost my ego by going on epic long rides with the help of a motor instead of getting healthy and fit, or accept the fact I can't go on epic long rides anymore, it isn't a motor, really it is a bike, its the new deal, the tide is changing, everyone is doing it, you just have to try it'.........

    Still has a motor.
    Nice elitist attitude you got going there.
    Are you suggesting it's better for the fat, old, blind, gimpy, unfit, bronchial mt biker you describe to just sit around and let all those ailments determine & overwhelm his/her future?
    You're not one of those authoritarian know-it-alls who thinks you have the right to tell others just how they should recreate & maintain or get in shape, are you?
    Public lands & human powered! It's as simple as that. You don't pedal, it don't go! Stop making it more complicated with your divisive us vs them BS.
    I ride with some folks in their 60s & 70s who've made the switch to e-bikes. Doesn't affect me. Not sure why you think it affects you.

  13. #13
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    It's not like this wasn't predictable.
    "And crawling on the planet's face, some insects called, The Human Race..."

  14. #14
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    Horses are just stone age e-bikes

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    I think that if this lawsuit is based on the NFS not following it's own rules, the suit will actually result in the NFS changing their rules to allow e-bikes just like BLM does. Why fight a lawsuit when you can write a 1 paragraph rule, sign it and say: "OK, we changed the rules so now bugger off".

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAYR751 View Post
    Ebikes are definitely the same thing as dirt bikes. Just watch this video. I'm betting a skilled horseback rider could do it faster.
    E-bike races are just unbearably lame. We really should show this to anyone scared about them.

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    I've been riding in Tahoe for 10 years and have lived here for the last 3. From June-ish to November-ish I probably average 3-4 rides a week. Pretty sure I've ridden every single trail around the North and West shores by now. And yes, I have an e-bike as well as a stable of "regular" MTBs that all get regular use. And I dirtbike, 4x4, camp, hike, and sled, snowshoe, and ski in the winter. Basically all the things for playing outside in the mountains. I know many of the fire road networks around the area as well as most people know their neighborhood streets.

    I have never seen a horse on any of the trails, or fire roads. Ever. I know they're around because very occasionally I've come cross their feces on the trails, but that's about it - their use of the area must be a tiny, microscopic drop in the bucket compared to everyone else. But God forbid somebody else that they don't like might be out on the public lands that the 6 equestrians use twice a year! Fire up the lawyers! Sharpen the pitchforks!!!

    This state needs an enema.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nilswalk View Post
    I've been riding in Tahoe for 10 years and have lived here for the last 3. From June-ish to November-ish I probably average 3-4 rides a week. Pretty sure I've ridden every single trail around the North and West shores by now. And yes, I have an e-bike as well as a stable of "regular" MTBs that all get regular use. And I dirtbike, 4x4, camp, hike, and sled, snowshoe, and ski in the winter. Basically all the things for playing outside in the mountains. I know many of the fire road networks around the area as well as most people know their neighborhood streets.

    I have never seen a horse on any of the trails, or fire roads. Ever. I know they're around because very occasionally I've come cross their feces on the trails, but that's about it - their use of the area must be a tiny, microscopic drop in the bucket compared to everyone else. But God forbid somebody else that they don't like might be out on the public lands that the 6 equestrians use twice a year! Fire up the lawyers! Sharpen the pitchforks!!!

    This state needs an enema.
    Well said

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nilswalk View Post
    I've been riding in Tahoe for 10 years and have lived here for the last 3. From June-ish to November-ish I probably average 3-4 rides a week. Pretty sure I've ridden every single trail around the North and West shores by now. And yes, I have an e-bike as well as a stable of "regular" MTBs that all get regular use. And I dirtbike, 4x4, camp, hike, and sled, snowshoe, and ski in the winter. Basically all the things for playing outside in the mountains. I know many of the fire road networks around the area as well as most people know their neighborhood streets.

    I have never seen a horse on any of the trails, or fire roads. Ever. I know they're around because very occasionally I've come cross their feces on the trails, but that's about it - their use of the area must be a tiny, microscopic drop in the bucket compared to everyone else. But God forbid somebody else that they don't like might be out on the public lands that the 6 equestrians use twice a year! Fire up the lawyers! Sharpen the pitchforks!!!

    This state needs an enema.
    This is my experience in the Bay Area and I ride almost everyday. The only place I ever see horses is Arastradero on my ride home and only occasionally there.

  20. #20
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    A few places in the south bay have quite a few horses. Santa Teresa County park and Quicksilver... annoying to me but I can, reluctantly, live with them

  21. #21
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    https://www.facebook.com/TahoeNF/pho...553455/?type=3

    U.S. Forest Service- Tahoe National Forest
    October 23 at 7:29 PM ·


    As the 2019 field season winds to a close, the Tahoe National Forest would like to share an update on class 1, pedal-assisted E-bike use on recommended routes and trails:

    • No observed increase in trail degradation nor resource damage occurred as a result of class 1, pedal-assisted E-bike use on Tahoe National Forest routes or trails.

    • No trail conflicts were reported or observed between class 1, pedal-assisted E-bike users and other recreationalists on Tahoe National Forest roads or trails.

    • There were no reported accidents or injuries due to E-bike use of any class type on Tahoe National Forest routes or trails.

    • Tahoe National Forest trail and recreation managers did observe an increase in the diversity of skill levels and age groups utilizing E-bikes to access Tahoe National Forest routes and trails. This included both class 1, pedal-assisted E-bike use, and other classes of E-bikes utilizing motorized routes.

    The Tahoe National Forest offers a wide variety of E-bike riding opportunities. For a complete list of these opportunities, please visit: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/tahoe/home/…
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelmotion View Post
    Is this an ebike? It is, right? I mean, cost less than my current bike with no battery... Hmm..

    https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx
    That has 46 hp. The ebikes were talking about here have ~1hp. There is a vast difference and it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    That has 46 hp. The ebikes were talking about here have ~1hp. There is a vast difference and it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
    but how long until the aftermaket comes along and quintuples that output? oh wait, spoke too soon.....https://www.ebiketuning.com/

    https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/0...he-whole-bike/


    this took like 30 sec of googling.

  24. #24
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    It's because of this exclusionary and litigious attitude that Big Chief was the first legal MTB trail built on Tahoe NF land in 20 years. 20 f'ing years!!! https://www.nationalforests.org/blog...ational-forest

    Thanks horsepeople, please go ahead, complete your life on this planet, and expedite your exit.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    That has 46 hp. The ebikes were talking about here have ~1hp. There is a vast difference and it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
    There's no upper limit on power, and the lower 750w limit, at least in the US is self defined. While I agree, no one will sell or ride a Zero and claim it's an ebike, there are plenty of "legal" ebikes starting to appear on the market that are far more powerful than the 250w ebikes they sell in Europe that currently peak @1hp. Anything with pedals and a "750w" mode is fully legal in the US even if it peaks at 10,000w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Anything with pedals and a "750w" mode is fully legal in the US even if it peaks at 10,000w.
    This is somewhat off topic, however this statement above is not correct

    If the thing with pedals peaks at 10,000w it does not fit the federal description of an e-Bike and would be considered a motorcycle, it does not matter if you don't use the power, if it is there to use, that is what matters.

    "At the federal level, a 2002 law enacted by Congress, HB 727, amended the Consumer Product Safety Commission definition of e-bikes. The law defined a low-speed electric bicycle as “A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.” The federal law permits e-bikes to be powered by the motor alone (a “throttle-assist” e-bike), or by a combination of motor and human power (a “pedal-assist” e-bike).

    ...

    State traffic laws and vehicle codes remain the sole domain of states and state legislatures. In other words, the manufacturing and first sale of an e-bike is regulated by the federal government, but its operation on streets and bikeways lies within a state’s control. Thus, many states still have their own laws that categorize e-bikes with mopeds and other motorized vehicles, require licensure and registration, or do not enable them to be used on facilities such as bike lanes or multi-purposetrails."

    http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...ve-primer.aspx

  27. #27
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    Horses damage the trail much more than e-bikes. E-bikes don't have anymore impact than non-e-bikes on the trails. This reminds me of when snowboarding started at the ski resorts. Opponents freaked out about them and pushed back a lot against banning snowboarders, but now it is allowed at virtually all resorts except a minute few.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    Horses damage the trail much more than e-bikes. E-bikes don't have anymore impact than non-e-bikes on the trails. This reminds me of when snowboarding started at the ski resorts. Opponents freaked out about them and pushed back a lot against banning snowboarders, but now it is allowed at virtually all resorts except a minute few.
    If you ride twice the mileage on an e-Bike than you’d do on a normal bike, yes, you are doing twice the damage. I’m not sure how you can argue that. The damage per mile is not greater, sure, but the damage per user is, certainly.





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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    If you ride twice the mileage on an e-Bike than you’d do on a normal bike, yes, you are doing twice the damage. I’m not sure how you can argue that. The damage per mile is not greater, sure, but the damage per user is, certainly.
    What is this "damage" you speak of?

  30. #30
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    [QUOTE=Le Duke;14401081]If you ride twice the mileage on an e-Bike than you’d do on a normal bike, yes, you are doing twice the damage. I’m not sure how you can argue that. The damage per mile is not greater, sure, but the damage per user is, certainly.

    While I respect your opinion, it sounds eerily like something MVdman preaches. I’m sure this wasn’t your intention.

    I have no dog in this fight. E-bikes aren’t for me, but I won’t begrudge someone for riding one (though I may look at them with disdain ).

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    Horses damage the trail much more than e-bikes. E-bikes don't have anymore impact than non-e-bikes on the trails. This reminds me of when snowboarding started at the ski resorts. Opponents freaked out about them and pushed back a lot against banning snowboarders, but now it is allowed at virtually all resorts except a minute few.
    Anyone with half a brain knows that the damage argument is nonsense. For people that say that ebikers are riding double the distance and thus causing double the distance...no, by and large they're not. Ebikers for the most part are just doing the same rides they were before but exerting less effort by utilizing a motor.

    The issue has always been trying to force motorized bikes in on trails that have been determined as non-motorized. Once that distinction has been broken, it's been broken. The argument that the bike industry and ebikers make that "a pedal-actuated motor isn't reallllly a motor" is laughable to anyone but themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    Anyone with half a brain knows that the damage argument is nonsense. For people that say that ebikers are riding double the distance and thus causing double the distance...no, by and large they're not. Ebikers for the most part are just doing the same rides they were before but exerting less effort by utilizing a motor.

    The issue has always been trying to force motorized bikes in on trails that have been determined as non-motorized. Once that distinction has been broken, it's been broken. The argument that the bike industry and ebikers make that "a pedal-actuated motor isn't reallllly a motor" is laughable to anyone but themselves.
    I agree with your first paragraph 100%. Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I'm not aware of ANY traditional motorized user group seeking access to what we call "non-motorized trails". But I only live in 1 small part of the USA (but an awesome place, if I must say). Is it different where you live?

  33. #33
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    Most environmental damage is done by poor trail design and construction, rather than by use. Even motorcycle trails can be sustainable if designed and built correctly.

    This is a good book on the subject, not sure if it's in print any longer.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tahoe Natl Forest: The Horsepeople are coming for your motorcycles-natural-surface-trails.png  


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I agree with your first paragraph 100%. Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I'm not aware of ANY traditional motorized user group seeking access to what we call "non-motorized trails". But I only live in 1 small part of the USA (but an awesome place, if I must say). Is it different where you live?
    I'll freely admit that I'm not current on what local or national motorized groups are pursuing regarding access to non-motorized trails.

    That said, if I were them, I'd be absolutely loving this situation. You have one user group (mountain bikers) that has been adamant for decades to exclude motorized traffic on multi-use trails now tying itself in knots to try and make the argument that some motors are ok, but other aren't. You have huge discord in the mountain bike community, with the flames being fanned by spineless "advocacy groups" and craven manufacturers. The detente that had existed between the three groups (cyclists, hikers, and equestrians) is collapsing, and in it's place cyclists are losing their legitimacy in the non-motorized argument.

    If I were a member of a motorized advocacy group, I'd be licking my lips and lobbying the hell out of allowing ebike access. Open that door a crack, and you have a foothold.

    [To be clear, I have no issue with moto access in moto areas. There are a number of amazing trails and areas that I have ridden that were developed by motos, and some of the coolest people I have shared the trail with were on motos. That said, I simply think that there need to be clear moto/non-moto designations. And that a motor is a motor, period.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    You have one user group (mountain bikers) that has been adamant for decades to exclude motorized traffic on multi-use trails now tying itself in knots to try and make the argument that some motors are ok, but other aren't.
    That's exactly it. The argument seems to be 'these motors are so small, it doesn't matter'. These motors won't be small for long, and pedal-assisted bikes will probably be phased out as electric motors get more powerful, smaller and cheaper.

    I'm very pro-eBike. But I think they should be subject to the same off-road rules as gas-powered cycles. Some of my favorite unofficial trails have "No Motos" signage, as there's a big difference between human-powered cycles and motor-driven cycles.

    On the other hand, such regulations will be difficult to enforce, and they're no point in having rules that can't be enforced. Maybe off-road e-bikes should have to buy the California OHV sticker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brah View Post
    The argument seems to be 'these motors are so small, it doesn't matter'. These motors won't be small for long...
    Trek's 2020 ebikes have a Bosch motor that is 40% smaller and 20% lighter. E-riders want lighter bikes, too! The Powerfly is probably my next bike.
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    Here's the problem:https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/

    20hp and pretends to be a bicycle. Yes, technically it's not legal within the rules of class 1,2,3 but unless the forest service hangs out along the trails with dynamometers who's gonna stop them ?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by csuder99 View Post
    Here's the problem:https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/

    20hp and pretends to be a bicycle. Yes, technically it's not legal within the rules of class 1,2,3 but unless the forest service hangs out along the trails with dynamometers who's gonna stop them ?

    Jesus that is dangerously under braked

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