San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?

    Are you kidding me? The rock garden had all the tops sledge hammered off for 50 yards! Pathetic! A sign that says "Walk bike if this is too scary" would have been way easier, dummies. Give me a break, when is Ghillotti Brothers going to pave the loops and install handrails? Maybe the next sanitization should be to make Flow Trail flat, and cut off all the tops of jumps and berms. Really? I guess I can sell my 5 Spot and use my Schwinn World tourist.San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?-image.jpg

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    Yeah, good luck getting any traction with this.

    The last time I pointed out trail sanitation out there, I got berated. I assumed it was hikers doing the work, because nobody who rides would destroy trails like that, right?! Btw- I do/have done lots of trailwork. And I know a couple of regulars out there who were equally disappointed. This year's annual pass will be my last...

    "There oughta be a law with no bail
    Smash a good trail and you go to jail." ~ J. Hiatt

    And if they smashed that beautiful, polished serpentine, then they should have their nads smashed. We took a newb down Wagon Wheel a few months ago--she cleaned it. One of the reasons I like undocumented trails so much is that, above all else, the builders and riders respect the trail.

    Btw- The pics are on the Marin County Parks FB page. Evidently, they're very proud of their work.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 02-26-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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    Well, like you were then, I am right. That is almost environmental vandalism. Pretty pathetic.

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    I wasn't there that day but the MCOSD came out with an air hammer. Wagon Wheel is on their land. Not Scout land, not anymore. Only about 1/2 of the riders that hit that section were able to ride it which was the reason for it being removed. I haven't seen the affected section since I have been at work the entire time.

    The only way around this going forward is to increase the number of places to ride in hopes that we can get a designated intermediate or advanced trail system. Until then this will just keep happening.

    The good news is after this weekends rain it will look entirely different.

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    Re: San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I wasn't there that day but the MCOSD came out with an air hammer. Wagon Wheel is on their land. Not Scout land, not anymore. Only about 1/2 of the riders that hit that section were able to ride it which was the reason for it being removed. I haven't seen the affected section since I have been at work the entire time.

    The only way around this going forward is to increase the number of places to ride in hopes that we can get a designated intermediate or advanced trail system. Until then this will just keep happening.

    The good news is after this weekends rain it will look entirely different.
    I can only guess they are sanitizing where that guy hurt his leg. Not really such a bad thing, a simple clipped in stumble there can really mess you up.

    sent remotely

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    aw man, wagon wheel was one of my fave sections at t-rancho. years ago, the first time i came up to it, i walked two or three sections. then the next time, i walked one, and then after that never had any issues cleaning it. i thought that was the whole point of that section, ha.
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    I disagree, it's called a bypass.

    Going forward, these sections could be left alone, and a bypass could be used. Or, walk your bike. As a single speed guy, sometimes on a steep ride, I hoof it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I wasn't there that day but the MCOSD came out with an air hammer. Wagon Wheel is on their land. Not Scout land, not anymore. Only about 1/2 of the riders that hit that section were able to ride it which was the reason for it being removed. I haven't seen the affected section since I have been at work the entire time.

    The only way around this going forward is to increase the number of places to ride in hopes that we can get a designated intermediate or advanced trail system. Until then this will just keep happening.

    The good news is after this weekends rain it will look entirely different.
    It's never been clear to me why the BSA sold the Wagon Wheel section of trail to MCOSD?

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    San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?

    I just thought my new 27.5 wheels helped me clean that section and that I had skillz. Disappointed too find out it had been sanitized...

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    MCOSD does the amidst the challenges of a community struggle for land use?
    I don't rattle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I wasn't there that day but the MCOSD came out with an air hammer. Wagon Wheel is on their land. Not Scout land, not anymore. Only about 1/2 of the riders that hit that section were able to ride it which was the reason for it being removed. I haven't seen the affected section since I have been at work the entire time.

    The only way around this going forward is to increase the number of places to ride in hopes that we can get a designated intermediate or advanced trail system. Until then this will just keep happening.

    The good news is after this weekends rain it will look entirely different.
    It's definitely easier now.

    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    I can only guess they are sanitizing where that guy hurt his leg. Not really such a bad thing, a simple clipped in stumble there can really mess you up.


    sent remotely
    Then walk it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    MCOSD does the amidst the challenges of a community struggle for land use?
    WTH are you trying to say?

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    MCOSD will not let the Tamarancho classic run on their land. They will not let us build a trail from Wagon Wheel to B-17 that is why you have to bomb down the dangerous 1/4 mile section of fire road. The route was flagged and ready to cut MCOSD shut the project down. Also MCOSD had had a 14 year long "observation" of Wagon Wheel trail. Of course they wanted to close the trail to bike access when the land was sold to MCOSD.

    If it were not for Jim Jacobsen this trail would have never happened. So there would be nothing to complain about and the Tamarancho loop wouldn't be a loop. We are lucky the trail is even there.

    I bet after the rain a new challenge will appear. Again this was the MCOSD with an air hammer showing up. Of course we are trying to work with them and get to know the MCOSD trail crew.

    How do you think opening new trails to bikes will go if we don't have a good standing relationship with the MCOSD trail crew?

  13. #13
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    I noticed this too. When in these complaints in the past have come up, they've usually been about work done by cyclists, and about short sections where a single rock or root was modified. Fairly recent work out there included modest changes done by locals with decades invested in the sport, and I supported their efforts.
    It's very clear that the most recent work was done not by the usual crews. Not sure who this work was supposed to please, but it doesn't bode well.

    [edit] Finished posting just after you, Davey. Thanks for the clarity, and for your continued commitment to keeping Tamarancho fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador View Post
    I noticed this too. When in these complaints in the past have come up, they've usually been about work done by cyclists, and about short sections where a single rock or root was modified. Fairly recent work out there included modest changes done by locals with decades invested in the sport, and I supported their efforts.
    It's very clear that the most recent work was done not by the usual crews. Not sure who this work was supposed to please, but it doesn't bode well.

    [edit] Finished posting just after you, Davey. Thanks for the clarity, and for your continued commitment to keeping Tamarancho fun.
    Well the recent work was done under the same volunteer effort as the rest of the camp work. This time it did feature a MCOSD crew. It also featured some of the regulars who did the "better" work that happened in December.

    I have not seen the newest change to the trail. So I am not commenting about what happened. I'm just trying to present what is going on at the camp in general and why griping about it is counter productive. (but at the same time speaking out about a lack of advanced trails is positive and you should show at the next A4B meeting and help me be another voice for bike friendly trail design)

    This effort represented a successful work day with a MCOSD crew and the most experienced bike trail builders in the county. That to me is the most significant thing about the work. It represented a cooperation between cyclists and the county. ALOT gets lost in translation when the county shows up.

    Much respect to the FKFW and Jim Jacobsen. Those guys have been at it for decades now. And please try and keep in mind they work hard to find a balance in the camp. They have to mitigate risk for the Scouts. They have beginner riders who show up because of Endor and because it is one of the two "bike ghettos" in Marin.

    Other than China Camp where the heck else can anyone go to ride narrow trails?

    So a lot of people show up and ride the trail who may be WAY over their head. There is the issue of personal responsibility of which I am a big fan. However there is also the fact that the county is "watching us" they are still in an evaluation period with Wagon Wheel. The camp is under a microscope and so far it has been a tremendous success. Compared to the management practices of MCOSD Jim Jacobsen is pretty much completely the opposite.

    We are lucky he puts up with people that complain about the management at the camp. It is a volunteer "job" and Jim spent the last week cutting poison oak with a chain saw for pay. He spends his weekend blasting rock for no pay as a volunteer and we start griping. We are lucky he has a thick skin. Vernon manages a huge property which is a lot of work and over the years he has built and rebuilt much of the camp. By hand. There are a lot of other volunteers that do hard work and read MTBR...

    As the guy who is spending free time organizing the next work day the negativity is a bummer but at the same time. I get it. The only legal rock garden in Marin changed. I understand why that would ruffle feathers.

    So I save my gripes for the land managers that do not allow bike access on narrow trails: MMWD. Or land managers whose management style resembles a slow motion train wreck MCOSD. Not the ones volunteering to be a land manager because the love mountain biking so much.

    We are talking about volunteers that showed up on a weekend to help with one of the only riding spots in Marin. SO please: Take it easy!


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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    Going forward, these sections could be left alone, and a bypass could be used. Or, walk your bike. As a single speed guy, sometimes on a steep ride, I hoof it.
    On trails where I live, they have done a bypass option on tough sections. Even when I can clean the tough sections every time, if there is a bypass, I find myself taking the easy road. The 'feature section' is still there, and most all the skilled riders take it, but me, I take the bypass.
    I attribute this to getting old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squareback View Post
    I can only guess they are sanitizing where that guy hurt his leg. Not really such a bad thing, a simple clipped in stumble there can really mess you up.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post

    Then walk it.
    hey, I rock that ***** with my feet gorilla taped to the pedals and nylon ties holding my thumbs.

    It is the newbies that I worry about, and I like newbies. Some of them are hot.

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    I doubt that MCOSD would allow a bypass to be built without a long struggle. Much of Wagon wheel is not on Scout land.

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    Everybody wants 'FLOW' these days. All the trail needs to be smooth and 4 feet wide. It's the future.

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    delete
    Last edited by dlazz; 02-26-2014 at 06:12 PM.

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    San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?

    Only ridden a couple of loops there once but it seems a shame that they would waste effort sanitizing features when it would be better spent building additional trails... Ho hum. I know the politics of trail building can be far more challenging that the trail construction, especially in Marin. Keep up the good work Davey & co.
    Not really doing much Ridin' or Diggin' :skep:

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    I do have a fondness for classic rock.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?-cant_get_.jpg  

    I like to bike.

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    Hoolie and all you other complainers; why don't you come out and volunteer instead of vetching.
    Many of the people who worked at Wagon Wheel on Saturday were the original trail builders, including myself. That trail is in my DNA. I am really sick and tired of the trail consumers that never lift a hand and just whine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    WTH are you trying to say?
    Seems like doing this now would just piss-off mtb'ers and foment resistance to their proposed plans.
    I don't rattle.

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    Also, my crew and I blew through some of the usually rough sections a couple of weeks ago and I though we were just gnarlier than usual or it was my new 27.5. Later we thought it might be the recent rain.....after a few beers at the' 'Haus we loved everyone, man. (Who's the brunette zaftig hottie?)

    I digress.

    Dang!

    Anyhow I haven't seen the most recent work. If Jim, the FKFW, and the usual guys were out there....then I got nothing to complain about. They do their best and have my 100% support.
    I don't rattle.

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    Please don't comment on the County Parks page for now. We are working hard to send the same message to Parks but in a constructive way. The negative comments on Facebook just make the community look bad in the eyes of parks and nature nazis.

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    Facebook link removed, apologies to the FKFW, did not know they were involved, i thought that the OS just went at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freewheels View Post
    Hoolie and all you other complainers; why don't you come out and volunteer instead of vetching.
    Many of the people who worked at Wagon Wheel on Saturday were the original trail builders, including myself. That trail is in my DNA. I am really sick and tired of the trail consumers that never lift a hand and just whine.
    I have done 4 days of trail work in the last year. 2 in Napa, 2 Tamarancho. I think if EVERYONE that rides a bike anywhere, did even 4 days a year, we could have Tamarancho paved by now, maybe even a center yellow line painted. You do horrible things to that trail. Very sad.

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    Deleted, too negative.

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    02-26-2014 05:37 PM
    chudaman
    Thread: San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?
    we would actually be better off if you didn't post, eh?

    Thanks for neg rep, but I will continue to thank those that work on the trails, even if I am disappointed about the sanitizing of natural obstacles. I will delete that negative comment. I even appreciate the fact that people do more work than I. I will ride their trail, their way. Chudaman, did you ride the section yet? What do think about the work done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlazz View Post
    Facebook link removed, apologies to the FKFW, did not know they were involved, i thought that the OS just went at it.
    Thank you sir!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    Deleted, too negative.
    Thank you And thank you for doing trail work this year hoolie. This is a really, really frustrating time for our community. Like rats in an overcrowded cage we are starting to get at each other a little.

    Lets take a break and start gnawing on the rusty cage, shall we?

    Until then:


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    Some of the EBRPD folks, fairly high up, are riding trails in their parks to test out loops the BTCEB have suggested for their outreach program to guide riders unfamiliar with a particular park. I am hearing a curious thing:

    "once you see these trails on a bike, it's really different."

    We just smile. Our trails have feel to them because we ride. Trailcrews who don't ride are missing that. Some things you just can't tell people; they have to discover it on their own.

    Just sayin'.

    BTW, we are holding our next General Meeting in their Executive Board Room. We'll still have pizza and beer!
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  33. #33
    rox
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    why would we want to spend time and effort sanitizing natural features and taking away the challenge of mountain biking?

    Quote Originally Posted by freewheels View Post
    Hoolie and all you other complainers; why don't you come out and volunteer instead of vetching.
    Many of the people who worked at Wagon Wheel on Saturday were the original trail builders, including myself. That trail is in my DNA. I am really sick and tired of the trail consumers that never lift a hand and just whine.

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    One way to look at it is we are resetting the progression clock for this section of trail. The trail is much less technical now and a new generation of riders will learn to progress as the trail slowly washes away until it is as gnarly or more than two weeks ago.

    Everyone needs to have access for cycling. There are 6 year olds asking their mom to ride with them out to the flow trail. We need to accommodate an nurture this IMHO. Flame away if you don't think so but I'm trying to think long term. I liked that section of trail, not thrilled it changed. Haven't seen it yet either.

    Selfishly I would love to build a rock garden trail to test out suspension settings on my V-10 but sadly as Mr Spock would say, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of gnar shredders."

  35. #35
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    there definitely needs to be options for progression available. however it seems like there is a huge skew towards places suitable for beginners with no parts that are difficult enough to be a challenge. trails that challenge intermediate or advanced riders are without exception illegal.

    if you visit other states you will find trail systems that incorporate many skills levels and have appropriate signage for users to be able to determine where to ride given their own comfort level. here we only have unsigned trails made for the lowest common denominator.

    the very concept of progression requires advanced and challenging trails otherwise you are stuck at beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    One way to look at it is we are resetting the progression clock for this section of trail. The trail is much less technical now and a new generation of riders will learn to progress as the trail slowly washes away until it is as gnarly or more than two weeks ago.

    Everyone needs to have access for cycling. There are 6 year olds asking their mom to ride with them out to the flow trail. We need to accommodate an nurture this IMHO. Flame away if you don't think so but I'm trying to think long term. I liked that section of trail, not thrilled it changed. Haven't seen it yet either.

    Selfishly I would love to build a rock garden trail to test out suspension settings on my V-10 but sadly as Mr Spock would say, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of gnar shredders."

  36. #36
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    I'm a little weary of hearing that other places have it better in terms of access and advocacy. Other places don't have to deal with what we deal with here amongst 8,000,000 people and the 9th largest economy in the world. It is simply tougher here and what we have to do to make things work is different.

    I am tired of hearing what people think works here when they live in East Jesus with 1/10th of the population density, land managers who are just dying to have something happen, and Chambers of Commerce looking for ways to bring dollars out to the middle of nowhere. Even Bend, for Chrissakes. Yeah, it is great but why aren't we living there? O! Whistler is so cool and look at all the riding in the open space around North Van. Been there many many times. Yeah there are forests for days but Canadians run screaming away to Hawaii or Reno in the winter and it is gloomy as ship. You can't make a living living at an amusement park.

    What is needed to have people progress as riders is simply not relevant. I am saying that and I am hating it. I have been cycling coach for 15 years: but that is the way that it is. If you don't believe it start coming out to meetings and do it for about 20 years and then tell me what you think. If you don't want to do that, and I wouldn't blame you one bit (no, really: I'm serious) then you just might have to believe the people who have done it and continue to do it. We aren't just farting around. We have to work the margins. It sucks but that is what we have to do. It is that or gain nothing.

    And...gaining nothing in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s has driven riders away from advocacy to ride screaming into the unauthorized trails, shred on their own, and often decry the mitigated gains we do get.

    If you want the cool stuff then you need to travel beyond the spaces which use standards for public use.

    The Great Mike Ferrintino writes this month in Dirt Rag:

    "There is an irony at work here. Nowadays we are generally riding bikes that are incredibly capable. The modern 4-plus-inch-travel, sorta large wheeled bike is able to be thrown down a huge variety of trails at speed and just eat that shite up. And the big bikes being sold now can absorb any conceivable level of trail brutality without a whimper. Concurrently, trail building to mitigate erosion and serve a broad public-user base is becoming homogenous.

    The trails now being built on public land for use by regular mountain bikers are usually smooth, flowing, fun, and innocuous enough to be railed happily on an old rigid one-speed. As more new-school trail is built, as more old trails get rehabilitated into the new way of thinking, the incredibly new capable bikes we are riding lose some of their necessity. While I laugh a crazy laugh every time I lay my bike into a new-school berm or manual over a nicely crafted rolling dip, its not quite the same as fearing for my life as my bike skitters down some unplanned frenzy of loose rock. To my mind, the difference is about the same as streaming Todays Pop on Pandora, or catching some college radio station late at night and being blown away by some strange music I've never heard. Those freaky trails that are not designed for bikes are the most beautiful ingredients of the whole bike-riding stew as far as my taste buds are concerned."

    I, like Mike, cut our teeth on those sorts of trails because...that is all that there was to ride; legit or not. What he realizes is that trails not made for bikes are old-school stoke; trails that are, aren't so much. This is just how it is in this dynamic locale.
    I don't rattle.

  37. #37
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    Quite frankly, I lay a lot of the blame on certain "environmrntal" groups that either started locally or have a lot of local traction. I mean, how pathetic is it that we have folks banning bikes and blaming them for the end of modern civilization. Quite frankly, if these groups would have embraced bikes, trail access at your local open space would look a lot different.

    On a side note, rancho is like a 2 on the gnar factor... Keep riding up the hill or across the ridge

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    I'm a little frustrated that the rocks on that section of Wagon Wheel got smashed but...not surprised. I've seen a couple riders go down there and it wasn't pretty.

    Occasionally I hear rumblings about new trail possibilities at T-ranch. Why not an alternative to Wagon Wheel that stays on BSA land. Make a right at the top of Serpentine Trail
    and traverse over to the start of B-17 near the bottom of that sketchy fire road with the gravel.

    Probably to close to the Scout Camps to work, oh well, I can dream...

    See the map.

    San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?-tamarancho.jpg

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    Suggestions appreciated. Thanks. New trail construction was pushed back because of the weather and other issues. Looking like the fall for new trail construction to begin. DenisonDesign the area you highlighted is near a Scout Camp. So we can't build bike trail there.

    Jim Jacobsen and the other volunteers are trying hard for you all. If the lawyers and weather sign of on the next project we will have 2 new trails in 2 years from a private land manager and nothing from the public land managers. We have the bike communities back. Jim Jacobsen, A4B and the FKFW want to expand access and create new challenges.

    If you all would like to express fury please come to the next A4B meeting. I should be there. Anyone pressing for advanced trails other than myself would be a nice change.

    Plus beer is on A4B.

  40. #40
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    Hey Davey, when is the next A4B meeting? No fury, just want to get more involved and couldn't find anything on their website or FB.

    Was bummed about the trail sanitation when I rode it, but hopefully the beginning of a good relationship!
    http://www.mountainbikeSF.com - Guided Mountain Biking in the San Francisco Bay Area

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    02-26-2014 05:37 PM
    chudaman
    Thread: San Quentin Chaingang at Tamarancho? What happened to all the rocks? WTF?
    we would actually be better off if you didn't post, eh?

    Thanks for neg rep, but I will continue to thank those that work on the trails, even if I am disappointed about the sanitizing of natural obstacles. I will delete that negative comment. I even appreciate the fact that people do more work than I. I will ride their trail, their way. Chudaman, did you ride the section yet? What do think about the work done?
    hoolie,
    I was refraining from posting on this because I admit I do not have an informed perspective because I have not yet ridden the trail in question, but my reaction to the negative post is due to my overall experience where Tamarancho has become more technical in nature over the last ten years and, form my perspective, it seems ok to reset the progression clock on some of the trails. I do not advocate trail sanitation and do not mind the extra challenge, I just perceived an over reaction and negativity to a situation that will just progress / revert back to what it was. IDGAF about negative rep., so feel free to bash me, I am only stating my uninformed opinion because I was goaded into it by hoolie. Ride on, Chudaman
    Ride or die.

  42. #42
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmark View Post
    Hey Davey, when is the next A4B meeting? No fury, just want to get more involved and couldn't find anything on their website or FB.

    Was bummed about the trail sanitation when I rode it, but hopefully the beginning of a good relationship!
    2nd monday of the month 630 at Iron Springs Brewery in the "green room", on the way to the bathrooms there is a meeting room in back.

  43. #43
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    Actually it's the third Monday of the Month Davey, March 17th in this case. MtnMark we'd love to see you get involved!

  44. #44
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    Actually it's the third Monday of the Month Davey, March 17th in this case. MtnMark we'd love to see you get involved!
    Thanks. It isn't on the webpage as far as I can find.

  45. #45
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    I rode Tamarancho late this evening just before dark and before this next rain storm hits! The air jack hammered section is not bad at all really. The trail still gets your attention, not like you can close your eyes and ride through it now.

    George

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