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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    they want a handout from somebody...anybody.
    Thanks Cohenfive.

    I was actually hoping they had a real agenda, with real needs and desires, real demands, instead of something like that.

    Instead of the beyond f u cking lazy simply wanting to be even more lazy and getting much more than they already get for doing nothing.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    cf:

    That is the best reasoning I have heard to date on the government staying out of a terrible business model even though it sounds good to the well wishers who don't understand the limitations of many alternative energy options.
    that doesn't mean i'm against renewable energy by the way..it has been my job for the past few years to invest and help companies in the sector grow, and i hope to get back to it again some day (but with my employer shutting down our business i had to get another job to pay the bills..and the tax bill!). it just means that govt needs to be smart about picking their spots to help the private sector where they can, and get out of the way when they have nothing to contribute. that is why i believe they need to stay on either end of the chain and let the private sector rule the middle. what happened with solyndra is a shame because they strayed from where they have a valuable contribution to make, and also because now things are so tainted that they can't even participate where they should. after solyndra went down the doe has cancelled multiple financing transactions that are exactly where they need to be involved...with financing and deployment of viable commercial technology..but picking a company that is unproven is a stupid idea best left to private investors to sort through, and to in this case lose money on..their job is to take those sorts of risks, not some guys in dc.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Ygduf, we will always disagree on the tax issue. FYI - truckers pay a huge amount of taxes above what we pay to cover road wear. So that argument doesn't fly. Check it out. The Microsoft argument, makes no sense at all. So i'm just going to ignore that whole line of "thinking". I think you need to read up.

    .
    Let me try to clarify. functioning society (power/water/roads/education/etc...) allows businesses to run, and daily life to happen. If someone is earning 10 million/year, they are benefiting more from that system and should be more responsible to help keep it going.

    It's currently set up the opposite, where the wealthy end up paying a lower tax rate than the poor. Google Buffet's example about his rate vs. his secretary's.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Google Buffet's example about his rate vs. his secretary's.
    She pays more "income" tax because he doesn't get paid a salary. I can't believe people fall for this.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    She pays more "income" tax because he doesn't get paid a salary. I can't believe people fall for this.
    His point is that she pays a higher % of her earnings than he does as a billionaire. That his earnings include barely-taxed capital gains and stock dividends is part of the problem.

    He also takes a 100k/year salary, just for the record.

    Anyway, I commend you all for some of the decent discussion in this thread. I'm out though. I'm going to live comfortably and guilt free and stop bashing my head into a wall reading this thread!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    His point is that she pays a higher % of her earnings than he does as a billionaire. That his earnings include barely-taxed capital gains and stock dividends is part of the problem.

    He also takes a 100k/year salary, just for the record.

    Anyway, I commend you all for some of the decent discussion in this thread. I'm out though. I'm going to live comfortably and guilt free and stop bashing my head into a wall reading this thread!
    If he makes 100k salary how does she pay higher income tax rate? Are you saying she makes more than a 100k?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    His point is that she pays a higher % of her earnings than he does as a billionaire. That his earnings include barely-taxed capital gains and stock dividends is part of the problem.

    He also takes a 100k/year salary, just for the record.

    Anyway, I commend you all for some of the decent discussion in this thread. I'm out though. I'm going to live comfortably and guilt free and stop bashing my head into a wall reading this thread!
    Warren Buffets company, Birkshire Hathaway is behind in taxes to the tune of $1billion dollars. Why are you listening to this idiot??

    If this billionairre idiot really feels we should have higher taxes - why doesnt he pay what he owes, for starters??
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Let me try to clarify. functioning society (power/water/roads/education/etc...) allows businesses to run, and daily life to happen. If someone is earning 10 million/year, they are benefiting more from that system and should be more responsible to help keep it going.

    It's currently set up the opposite, where the wealthy end up paying a lower tax rate than the poor. Google Buffet's example about his rate vs. his secretary's.
    Your whole premise is flawed. There is no reason the government should be playing favorites. We have seen what happens when the government plays favorites. Companies like Exxon and Wellsfargo outsmart the government and get away without paying taxes, while 47% of our country pays no taxes - everyone realizes this is unfair and starts arguing about it.

    Flat tax. Fair and simple.
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That's the issue. Having special groups (be it unions or corporations) financing campaigns yield bad outcomes for all of us.
    Would you say the same if the group was BTCEB? These laws apply across the board. And sometimes they benefit you directly.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Wow.

    Thanks for ignoring every point I made and devolving this into some sort of racist diatribe.

    For real.
    You arent understanding the point. But either way its funny. I love the liberals arguments for regulation.

    First Acorn and Jimmy Carter argued banks were too racist to lend to poor people, so they created the community reinvestment act to force banks to lend.

    Later when this turned out to be a bad idea they argued the banks were being too greedy.

    Which is it? Are bankers racists or money hungry??

    I guess it's pointless to try and understand liberal logic.
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmHolland View Post


    Edit: I realize you talked about feeding frenzy, was more commentary on your prior posts, and just wanted to put a face to the feeding frenzy.
    I don't harbor any ill will against the sales people . I am in sales and have a very busy time of year I liken to "salmon season." Just so freeking busy, it's almost impossible to keep up.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Do you and the OWS'ers realize that this is not new. You used the phrase "right now" as if this is a new development in human history. Look into the French revolution, same story. Why are you just now waking up to this reality that has existed forever? As long as there has been money, there have been people buying influence. Can that ever change?

    How is camping on the sidewalk going to change it?

    What needs to change to get the OWS'ers to go home? Specific, actionable changes, not grandious generalities?
    They have nothing but platitudes. As soon as they are forced to create constructive, actionable ideas one of two things happen.

    A) The magical fairyland utopian ideals quickly become far fetched hairbrained schemes

    OR

    B) they start slinging epithets at anyone who disagrees with them.
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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    You arent understanding the point. But either way its funny. I love the liberals arguments for regulation.

    First Acorn and Jimmy Carter argued banks were too racist to lend to poor people, so they created the community reinvestment act to force banks to lend.

    Later when this turned out to be a bad idea they argued the banks were being too greedy.

    Which is it? Are bankers racists or money hungry??

    I guess it's pointless to try and understand liberal logic.
    I'll take your trivial Acorn/Carter argument, and raise you "Too big to fail", which came about as a result of the Republican removal of the separation of commercial/investment banking in the Glass-Steagall act in 1999:

    Glass

    Look, Republicans exist to do nothing more than try to remove every regulation or government program that came about after the Great Depression to try to prevent another Great Depression from occurring. Well, the Great Depression is coming back. Thanks guys!
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Let me try to clarify. functioning society (power/water/roads/education/etc...) allows businesses to run, and daily life to happen. If someone is earning 10 million/year, they are benefiting more from that system and should be more responsible to help keep it going.

    It's currently set up the opposite, where the wealthy end up paying a lower tax rate than the poor. Google Buffet's example about his rate vs. his secretary's.

    The piece that you're missing is this.

    You dont really "claim" your income till you have it as cash in your hand. Taxing income before its "claimed" is counter productive economically. If a person wishes to defer their enjoyment of their money and leave it out there in the world as capital for business use to expand, for secretaries to borrow so they can buy a home or a car, that's a VERY GOOD and productive thing. If you're rich, you want Buffet to leave his money out there in circulation. If you're poor you REALLY want Buffett to leave his money out there because when there's a lot of money out there it makes it really easy and cheep to get the loan you need for an education or to start a business.

    The incentive that we give people like Buffett to leave there money out there in circulation and not just buy a yacht or stuff it in their mattress is a very low tax rate on the money they manage to earn on their income that they've left out there in circulation.

    Taxing that money at the same rate that Buffett's secretary pays when she cashes her check on friday and buys groceries would instantly dry up the money in the lending market. Your house loan would be 15% over night. Car loans would be higher. Starting a business would cease to be democratic and would quickly become a completely insider deal. If you know people with money great, if not you're screwed.

    Quite simply, those capital markets are the lungs that give the economy the oxygen it needs to survive. If you ask me Capital Gains should not be taxed at all. Just tax the original income and be done. If you're willing to give up some gratification now to help somebody else achieve their dream you should not be penalized for it.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I don't harbor any ill will against the sales people .
    I do! Those a-holes call our helpdesk and always demand to be helped RIGHT NOW. All that gets them is put at the back of the line in the "we'll get to it when we can" pile. If they were nicer, respected others, and weren't so full of themselves they'd get helped much quicker.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I'll take your trivial Acorn/Carter argument, and raise you "Too big to fail", which came about as a result of the Republican removal of the separation of commercial/investment banking in the Glass-Steagall act in 1999:

    Glass

    Look, Republicans exist to do nothing more than try to remove every regulation or government program that came about after the Great Depression to try to prevent another Great Depression from occurring. Well, the Great Depression is coming back. Thanks guys!
    You're absolutely wrong. Did you see the many, many links I posted showing republicans trying to create better regulations of Fannie and Freddy?

    There is nothing wrong with Glass/Steigel, given the mortgage industry is regulated appropriately.

    you can't get away from this. CRA completely FCUKED us.
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    They have nothing but platitudes. As soon as they are forced to create constructive, actionable ideas one of two things happen.

    A) The magical fairyland utopian ideals quickly become far fetched hairbrained schemes

    OR

    B) they start slinging epithets at anyone who disagrees with them.
    You're embarrassing yourself. Let Metamorphic rep your side, for everyone's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I'll take your trivial Acorn/Carter argument, and raise you "Too big to fail", which came about as a result of the Republican removal of the separation of commercial/investment banking in the Glass-Steagall act in 1999:

    Glass

    Look, Republicans exist to do nothing more than try to remove every regulation or government program that came about after the Great Depression to try to prevent another Great Depression from occurring. Well, the Great Depression is coming back. Thanks guys!
    Agree. Though, plenty of Ds are bought and sold by industry as well. Election reform is step 1, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Quite simply, those capital markets are the lungs that give the economy the oxygen it needs to survive. If you ask me Capital Gains should not be taxed at all. Just tax the original income and be done. If you're willing to give up some gratification now to help somebody else achieve their dream you should not be penalized for it.
    I understand, and this is a valid point. What I do not agree with is that wealth consolidation increases investment and monetary liquidity.

    Appropriate Taxation for Stable, Reasonable Inequality |

    That link approximates my beliefs.

    What you're contending (that more rich people putting their money into markets = more loans for us plebes) is the basis of "trickle down" economics, i.e. cut tax on the rich and the money will filter down. It was tried. It didn't work. The blog post I link actually explains why pretty well, I think.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    You're embarrassing yourself. Let Metamorphic rep your side, for everyone's sake.



    k.
    when you start using facts, links, and sound logic to back your claims, you can start getting snotty. Until then you should stfu. :-)
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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    You're embarrassing yourself. Let Metamorphic rep your side, for everyone's sake.



    Agree.



    I understand, and this is a valid point. What I do not agree with is that wealth consolidation increases investment and monetary liquidity.

    Appropriate Taxation for Stable, Reasonable Inequality |

    That link approximates my beliefs.

    What you're contending (that more rich people putting their money into markets = more loans for us plebes) is the basis of "trickle down" economics, i.e. cut tax on the rich and the money will filter down. It was tried. It didn't work. The blog post I link actually explains why pretty well, I think.
    and congrats on your most recent neg rep!

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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    when you start using facts, links, and sound logic to back your claims, you can start getting snotty. Until then you should stfu. :-)

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    One out of 3 is only good in baseball.
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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    You're embarrassing yourself. Let Metamorphic rep your side, for everyone's sake.



    Agree. Though, plenty of Ds are bought and sold by industry as well. Election reform is step 1, I think.



    I understand, and this is a valid point. What I do not agree with is that wealth consolidation increases investment and monetary liquidity.

    Appropriate Taxation for Stable, Reasonable Inequality |

    That link approximates my beliefs.

    What you're contending (that more rich people putting their money into markets = more loans for us plebes) is the basis of "trickle down" economics, i.e. cut tax on the rich and the money will filter down. It was tried. It didn't work. The blog post I link actually explains why pretty well, I think.
    Trickle down works a hell of a lot better than trickle up....AKA government stimulus.

    And its NOT trickle down.

    Hypothetical world A - No capital gains tax.

    Warren has made $10k more than he needs. He ponders it and decides he'd be willing to lend that money to you to buy a car in a loan where you'll pay him $11k next year. That thousand is enough to make it worth it to warren to not have is money for a year and to cover the risk that you'll crash the car into a wall and never pay him back. After a year warren pays his tax on his original $10k of income and get's a $1000 tax free to play with .

    Hypothetical World B - 50% capital gains tax. Everything goes the same. Warren again decides $1000 is enough vig for him to take the risk and to be without the money for a year. But to have $1,000 in his hand after a year he actually needs to realize $2,000 in interest from you. If he doesn't see $1,000 in hand, its not worth it to defer his enjoyment of the money and to take the risk. So either YOU cough up the extra $1,000 or you dont get the car.

    So who gets hurt in scenario B? Who "actually" pays the tax. Yeah, its the person that can least afford it. Sticking it to Warren with a hefty 50% tax actually hurts the person that can least afford it.

    The whole "wealth consolidation" concept is a straw dog. I really hate progressives tendancies to create a new term that's been around forever so that they can demonize it. How about we just say "it takes money to make money" . Yeah, well, its always been that way and it always will be that way. All of us have the same 24 hours in a day. Having access to resources allows you to leverage those resources for your own benefit. So what. Get over it. That's life. Better yet, decide what side of the leveraging you want to be on and do what it takes to get there.

    The difference between the 99% and the 1% is not lucky sperm club membership (we're all lucky to be in this country), its not who you know, its not what cast you were born in. The last 200 years of American history have provided unparalleled mobility opportunities between financial castes. The 99% are a bunch of unmotivated people who would rather be on the dole than than the clock and would rather hang out smoke dope, and bang hippy chicks, than work hard get an education, delay gratification and do what it takes to be a financial success. Neither choice is cosmically good or bad.....but is IS a choice and the choice does have consequences. Truthfully, a 99%'er would hate their life if they had to do what a 1% does get there and stay there. Wealth is not an accident. It takes a lot of effort to create it and it takes a lot of effort to maintain it. I believe in respecting people's choices. That means letting each person own the results of their choices.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Trickle down works a hell of a lot better than trickle up....AKA government stimulus.

    And its NOT trickle down.

    Hypothetical world A - No capital gains tax.

    Warren has made $10k more than he needs. He ponders it and decides he'd be willing to lend that money to you to buy a car in a loan where you'll pay him $11k next year. That thousand is enough to make it worth it to warren to not have is money for a year and to cover the risk that you'll crash the car into a wall and never pay him back. After a year warren pays his tax on his original $10k of income and get's a $1000 tax free to play with .

    Hypothetical World B - 50% capital gains tax. Everything goes the same. Warren again decides $1000 is enough vig for him to take the risk and to be without the money for a year. But to have $1,000 in his hand after a year he actually needs to realize $2,000 in interest from you. If he doesn't see $1,000 in hand, its not worth it to defer his enjoyment of the money and to take the risk. So either YOU cough up the extra $1,000 or you dont get the car.

    So who gets hurt in scenario B? Who "actually" pays the tax. Yeah, its the person that can least afford it. Sticking it to Warren with a hefty 50% tax actually hurts the person that can least afford it.

    The whole "wealth consolidation" concept is a straw dog. I really hate progressives tendancies to create a new term that's been around forever so that they can demonize it. How about we just say "it takes money to make money" . Yeah, well, its always been that way and it always will be that way. All of us have the same 24 hours in a day. Having access to resources allows you to leverage those resources for your own benefit. So what. Get over it. That's life. Better yet, decide what side of the leveraging you want to be on and do what it takes to get there.

    The difference between the 99% and the 1% is not lucky sperm club membership (we're all lucky to be in this country), its not who you know, its not what cast you were born in. The last 200 years of American history have provided unparalleled mobility opportunities between financial castes. The 99% are a bunch of unmotivated people who would rather be on the dole than than the clock and would rather hang out smoke dope, and bang hippy chicks, than work hard get an education, delay gratification and do what it takes to be a financial success. Neither choice is cosmically good or bad.....but is IS a choice and the choice does have consequences. Truthfully, a 99%'er would hate their life if they had to do what a 1% does get there and stay there. Wealth is not an accident. It takes a lot of effort to create it and it takes a lot of effort to maintain it. I believe in respecting people's choices. That means letting each person own the results of their choices.
    terrific. I cant give you any more pos rep, or I would.

    I can say from experience that our system provides great upward mobility and opportunity for those willing to make a commitment and work hard. that's probably why I vociferously defend it.
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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    The difference between the 99% and the 1% is not lucky sperm club membership (we're all lucky to be in this country), its not who you know, its not what cast you were born in. The last 200 years of American history have provided unparalleled mobility opportunities between financial castes. The 99% are a bunch of unmotivated people who would rather be on the dole than than the clock and would rather hang out smoke dope, and bang hippy chicks, than work hard get an education, delay gratification and do what it takes to be a financial success. Neither choice is cosmically good or bad.....but is IS a choice and the choice does have consequences. Truthfully, a 99%'er would hate their life if they had to do what a 1% does get there and stay there. Wealth is not an accident. It takes a lot of effort to create it and it takes a lot of effort to maintain it. I believe in respecting people's choices. That means letting each person own the results of their choices.
    Ya, to a point though. It's not just about hard work and some tend to say it is. There's luck and there is also who you know. There are door openings that don't happen for all. Once it's opened, it's up to you. Some people make their openings, really aggressive folk. Some get lucky and have an opportunity when everything lines up and it pays off. Also, working hard will not land you in the 1%. You need to work hard in a certain direction to move up the corporate ladder or get lucky with your own business.

    Some wage slave works really hard at a corporation, but never gets noticed and doesn't move up. Some not so hard worker, works hard at image, ass-klssing, etc., and moves up. Opportunistic yes, but it's not just about hard work or my gardener would be in the 1%.

    You are vilifying the 99%, and it is not that way for everyone in the 99%. I'm in the 99%, I'm not the 1% wealthiest in the US. I'm not a slacker. I work my ass off, as I would suspect many do. I'm not broke neither. I'm middle class. I'm getting kicked in the nuts by everybody.

    However if you meant that in the OWS term, I have no idea if they really are the 99% though they give themselves that label. All I know is that they are upset about something, but I don't really associate with them. I hate the term 99%, because that's where I am, and they don't necessarily represent me (social moderate, fiscal conservative, politically independent). I *want* the opportunities to make more money. I don't want handouts, but we need reform. I want results. At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    when you start using facts, links, and sound logic to back your claims, you can start getting snotty. Until then you should stfu. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    and congrats on your most recent neg rep!

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    dude. really? You are too smart for juvenile insults.

    keep it civil por favor.
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    I think our trade deficit just grew some more thanks to our friends to the North!


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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    dude. really? You are too smart for juvenile insults.

    keep it civil por favor.
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    I saw the Screamers and pretty sure I saw the Units one time or another. I also have some art by Tomata Du Plenty. One of the great noise bands. I know Tomata would be out there with the marchers.

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    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmHolland View Post
    Ya, to a point though. It's not just about hard work and some tend to say it is. There's luck and there is also who you know. There are door openings that don't happen for all. Once it's opened, it's up to you. Some people make their openings, really aggressive folk. Some get lucky and have an opportunity when everything lines up and it pays off. Also, working hard will not land you in the 1%. You need to work hard in a certain direction to move up the corporate ladder or get lucky with your own business.

    Some wage slave works really hard at a corporation, but never gets noticed and doesn't move up. Some not so hard worker, works hard at image, ass-klssing, etc., and moves up. Opportunistic yes, but it's not just about hard work or my gardener would be in the 1%.

    You are vilifying the 99%, and it is not that way for everyone in the 99%. I'm in the 99%, I'm not the 1% wealthiest in the US. I'm not a slacker. I work my ass off, as I would suspect many do. I'm not broke neither. I'm middle class. I'm getting kicked in the nuts by everybody.

    However if you meant that in the OWS term, I have no idea if they really are the 99% though they give themselves that label. All I know is that they are upset about something, but I don't really associate with them. I hate the term 99%, because that's where I am, and they don't necessarily represent me (social moderate, fiscal conservative, politically independent). I *want* the opportunities to make more money. I don't want handouts, but we need reform. I want results. At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
    I think this is very well said. There are plenty of folks who don't relate to the antics in Oakland, hard working folks who do their jobs, play by the rules, and see themselves falling further behind. Party politics are dysfunctional, more about who's in than who's out. I'm a fiscal conservative in the sense I want to see results and value, but I can't relate to current Republican "leaders"or practices at all. I'm tired of the side shows and obstructionism. If there are some better ideas, bring them forward and let's have a healthy discussion about them.

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    You may be right Highdell. If this is true then the Oakland PD and the mayor are wrong for the job. But the Oakland OWS was gifted 20k in cash, and given a bunch of other non cash help in the last few days. And the Oakland OWS has made it very clear that they purposely create the confrontation with LE as a tactic designed to get the headline you mention.

    One of the slogans of Oakland OWS is "Kill Cops". Anyone who was down there saw it and it even made the local press.

    I am sorry for any of the folks hurt, I really am. But aiming to kill cops means you lose me.

    The cops ain't part of the 1 percent.

    I still love ya Highdell. Hope to see on the trails soon.

    C

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    His point is that she pays a higher % of her earnings than he does as a billionaire. That his earnings include barely-taxed capital gains and stock dividends is part of the problem.

    He also takes a 100k/year salary, just for the record.

    Anyway, I commend you all for some of the decent discussion in this thread. I'm out though. I'm going to live comfortably and guilt free and stop bashing my head into a wall reading this thread!
    Those earnings are on capital gains. His money run the american economy. It has been shown that raising capital gains tax does not really increase the amount collected - people trade stocks less. Trading more is good, as market reacts quickly.

    I have no idea about Buffets agenda, he obviously has more money then he needs. But for somebody who has earned a million dollars to buy a house in this area - by working a whole lot - that tax hit is very, very noticeable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    You may be right Highdell. If this is true then the Oakland PD and the mayor are wrong for the job. But the Oakland OWS was gifted 20k in cash, and given a bunch of other non cash help in the last few days. And the Oakland OWS has made it very clear that they purposely create the confrontation with LE as a tactic designed to get the headline you mention.

    One of the slogans of Oakland OWS is "Kill Cops". Anyone who was down there saw it and it even made the local press.

    I am sorry for any of the folks hurt, I really am. But aiming to kill cops means you lose me.

    The cops ain't part of the 1 percent.

    I still love ya Highdell. Hope to see on the trails soon.

    C
    The cops are a gang - and when they get to 'bust some heads' because of 'lowlifes, opposition, hippies, black...", they are all for it. It is a gang mentality - when one starts flinging their baton on someone - for no apparent reason - others jump in an do the same.

    Have you EVER, EVER, seen a cop stop a cop from smackin' someone?
    I'm sure it could happen, but the LEO never gets fired unless it so egregious that they HAVE to.

    This dood, a VET, who has seen more combat than most officers on that force - (combat that I may include was life/death - WAR vs. Protests), gets his shis beat? for what? ...Being in the area. - And then the way he gets treated while in custody - disgusting.

    Let's put VETs aside (I only brought it up because he has served this country and deserves 'gold' treatment - as all vets do.) and there are still the perfectly peaceful protesters using their RIGHT to assemble that get pelted, gassed and hit.
    They never 'catch' the looter, arsonist, vandal scum that hop on a protests' parade - the just decide that 'now is the time to flex my authority' - on whomever it may be.

    -And they get away with it - there's a charge of 'Obstruction' or 'Disorderly' that is ultimately dropped against the person BECAUSE there was NO proof - and beaten subject is free to TRY and sue the State/City - Good Luck - doubt they can afford an attorney that will go against the state or city.

    Anyways, NWA said it 'first'
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    The difference between the 99% and the 1% is not lucky sperm club membership (we're all lucky to be in this country), its not who you know, its not what cast you were born in. The last 200 years of American history have provided unparalleled mobility opportunities between financial castes. The 99% are a bunch of unmotivated people who would rather be on the dole than than the clock and would rather hang out smoke dope, and bang hippy chicks, than work hard get an education, delay gratification and do what it takes to be a financial success. Neither choice is cosmically good or bad.....but is IS a choice and the choice does have consequences. Truthfully, a 99%'er would hate their life if they had to do what a 1% does get there and stay there. Wealth is not an accident. It takes a lot of effort to create it and it takes a lot of effort to maintain it. I believe in respecting people's choices. That means letting each person own the results of their choices.
    This is so inspirational I almost said the pledge of allegiance...

    But it's more reflective of what Americans want to believe about our country than the actual state of affairs anymore. America's unparalleled economic mobility is long gone...better than the UK, and not much anyone else among your big rich countries. Meanwhile, intergenerational transmission of wealth is growing fast in the US, just like income inequality, to levels not seen in nearly a century.

    And as for the live-for-today ethos of supposedly lazy non-elite earners, just remember where all their purchasing power growth has come from in the last 35 years: increased labor force participation by women. Compare a median income household to a top 1%: which do you think has greater labor force participation by adults? That, plus massive increases in debt, is what has sustained consumption among the middle class in the last few decades. This has softened the welfare loss that would follow from wage stagnation alone, but it's not sustainable. Both resources, household credit and warm bodies to work, are about tapped out.

    What really differentiates the American economic system from that in other wealthy countries is not our superior job creation or economic mobility -- not anymore. What sets us apart is that people who in no possible way benefit from our arrangements still strenuously defend them as good and right and necessary. And without speaking to anyone's personal financial picture here, I would guess that includes most of the critics of progressives posting on this thread. You defend a system that you believe will make you fabulously wealthy one day -- but you too will spend your life in the other 99%.

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    Hey Axe, pleased to make your acquaintance...

    And I am impressed by your ability to post stats that seem on point but are just ever so slightly off the mark. Presented with a statement about tax *rates* on the very wealthy (low, historically speaking), you respond with a figure about tax *shares* borne by the wealthy.

    The deal is simple. You've got very low marginal tax rates, historically speaking, on top incomes. Not disputable. And you've got a comparatively high share of tax revenue paid by high earners at the same time.

    What reconciles these two facts is that the wealthy's share of the national income pot is so stupefyingly high, and has grown so much compared to 20th century norms, that even *despite* their historically low marginal tax rates, they *still* end up paying more tax than the other 95% combined.

    This is not a sign that the wealthy are paying more of their fair share then ever; it's a sign that they've got more income to draw from than virtually any other time since the 16th amendment was ratified.

    And yeah, per capita income in the US is growing, whether one looks in PPP terms, chained dollars, or (of course) nominal dollars. The point is that a stat of this nature is completely uninformative about the economic dislocation happening in this country -- not just because of the Lesser Depression, but that's certainly a capstone for a long term trend.

    The question this obscures is, where are the gains in per capita income going? They are going almost entirely to the top. In real terms, middle income earners are stagnating. But upper income folks...life's good for them.
    Last edited by slacker666; 11-05-2011 at 12:35 AM.

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    There's no real dispute that income inequality has grown high and fast in the US. Whether we should tolerate it requires answering two questions -- how did we get here, and what happens if we change this.

    We did not only get here because latter-day JP Morgans took over Washington for their own benefit. A large part of the increase in income inequality reflects a change in returns to skill in the economy. We have, in brief, transitioned to something more of a 'winner take all' economy than we used to have. Attribute it to information technology or whatever, but the best person in any field is able to capture a larger share of the difference in value between himself and the 2nd best person, than used to be the case. And that translates into income, and eventually wealth. Thomas Piketty and Emanuel Saez, the economists who have produced the best data in historical income inequality in the US, have made this point clearly.

    But there's also an undeniable effect of policy. When the 1981 tax reform took effect and marginal tax rates dropped, the wealthy captured a much larger share of post-tax income than previously.

    So what happens if we change back? Does the economy fall off the cliff if we undo that policy? Well, everything that we extoll about the American economy was forged under the shadow of vastly higher top tax rates. The US economy was pretty innovative and dynamic then too.

    From another perspective, in cross-national terms, there is a *negative* relationship between income inequality and per capita income. As incomes of the top and bottom get further apart, per capita income gets *smaller.* Not bigger. (If you don't believe me you can get the data from the CIA world factbook or Penn world tables; it's free.) There are a lot of reasons this could be true without supposing the one thing causes another, but that's exactly the problem for status quo defenders in the US: there is no coherent argument that economic success depends on preservation of this degree of income inequality, and this is true whether one looks at US history or at comparative evidence from today.

    There are a lot of policy instruments to reduce inequality. People here are talking about capital gains taxes, as if investors are these delicate morning glories that have to be treated just right or they wilt. Well, I thought they were big-balled badasses, but whatever. Realistically all taxation is distortionary for something that is economically efficient, including income taxation; we just have to figure out where the elasticities are lower.

    (Axe's defense of low capital gains taxes as necessary to promote stock trading volume is bizarre. Any financial economist will tell you that stock churning is far higher than necessary for price discovery; just look at how much trading takes place (and prices change) on a given share with no new information released. If this is the biggest problem with high capital gains taxes, then fire away.)

    But whatever. If you'd rather the taxes come on labor, fine. We can do that.
    Last edited by slacker666; 11-05-2011 at 12:41 AM.

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    And another contributing factor to income and wealth inequality is the sectoral mix of the US economy. Finance accounts for a vastly larger share of the national pot than it did in 1980. Like, 3x as much. It is fair to ask what we have gained from all this brainpower spent on finding tiny flaws in market prices of ever-more complex instruments.

    Do we have a better capacity to cordon off risk to those who knowingly and willingly bear it? I think recent events answer that question rather decisively.

    Do we have better allocation of capital to growing sectors of the economy that need it? The US government gave north of a trillion dollars to banks to stabilize their balance sheets so they would lend...but they haven't.

    Do we have superior price discovery properties in our financial markets? The NYSE is just noisier and has higher volume than it did 30 years ago...it is not providing systematically better signals about which firms are well or poor managed.

    So we have siphoned brainpower out of physics labs and math departments, shunted it off to Wall Street...and what do we have to show for it? A lily-white and stupefyingly rich borough of Manhattan, is about it. We don't even have the byproduct of the cool rockets and computers those guys used to build when they did their real jobs.

  38. #238
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    ^^^ don't forget about big Pharm.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    The cops are a gang - and when they get to 'bust some heads' because of 'lowlifes, opposition, hippies, black...", they are all for it. It is a gang mentality - when one starts flinging their baton on someone - for no apparent reason - others jump in an do the same.

    Have you EVER, EVER, seen a cop stop a cop from smackin' someone?
    I'm sure it could happen, but the LEO never gets fired unless it so egregious that they HAVE to.

    This dood, a VET, who has seen more combat than most officers on that force - (combat that I may include was life/death - WAR vs. Protests), gets his shis beat? for what? ...Being in the area. - And then the way he gets treated while in custody - disgusting.

    Let's put VETs aside (I only brought it up because he has served this country and deserves 'gold' treatment - as all vets do.) and there are still the perfectly peaceful protesters using their RIGHT to assemble that get pelted, gassed and hit.
    They never 'catch' the looter, arsonist, vandal scum that hop on a protests' parade - the just decide that 'now is the time to flex my authority' - on whomever it may be.

    -And they get away with it - there's a charge of 'Obstruction' or 'Disorderly' that is ultimately dropped against the person BECAUSE there was NO proof - and beaten subject is free to TRY and sue the State/City - Good Luck - doubt they can afford an attorney that will go against the state or city.

    Anyways, NWA said it 'first'
    No offense but you are clueless. Police have encounters every day where they could use force or even excessive force but they don't. These men and women put their lives on the line every day for very little pay. A lot of them are veterans as well. Are there bad cops? Yes. There are also bad active military and vets. Doesn't mean all of them are bad and just because this guy is a vet doesn't mean he is good either.

    To be honest unless there are witnesses or some more evidence I am not buying this story. I don't believe this guy got beat down for the reasons he says. If he did those cops should be immediately terminated.

    Just because you have the right to protest doesn't mean you can do what you want. The article said they were trying to shut down the city which the police have every right to prevent and is not peaceful protest. They also were illegally occupying buildings and starting fires which is a public safety issue.

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    ^^^ the illegal occupation of buildings , looting and arsonists are not the protesters and need to be arrested.


    If you don't believe what I wrote, that's your problem - but I am not clueless - I have seen it 1st hand.
    If you need second-hand proof, there are countless vids on youtube - many just covering OWS and alike.

    All that aside, do you not believe he had a life threatening injury for being beaten so hard and had to wait 18 hours in custody for medical attention? - what type action deserves that kind of beating? - NONE . Subdue, cuff and transport - Do not wail, punch and kick - EVER.

    F.T.P.

    Oh and No Offence, but you are a Dipstick
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    ^^^ the illegal occupation of buildings , looting and arsonists are not the protesters and need to be arrested.


    If you don't believe what I wrote, that's your problem - but I am not clueless - I have seen it 1st hand.
    If you need second-hand proof, there are countless vids on youtube - many just covering OWS and alike.

    All that aside, do you not believe he had a life threatening injury for being beaten so hard and had to wait 18 hours in custody for medical attention? - what type action deserves that kind of beating? - NONE . Subdue, cuff and transport - Do not wail, punch and kick - EVER.

    F.T.P.

    Oh and No Offence, but you are a Dipstick

    You are calling me a dipstick and you are the one that can't even read and comprehend the article you posted. OK. According to the article it was the OccuTards.

    Thousands of protesters had attended the action in Oakland on Wednesday, taking over the downtown area of the city and blockading Oakland's port.

    As demonstrations continued near the camp base at Frank H Ogawa plaza during the evening, a group of protesters occupied a disused building on 16th Street at around 10.30pm, with some climbing up onto the roof.

    There had been little police presence during the day, but more than 200 officers arrived after 11pm. Some protesters had set fire to a hastily assembled barrier at the corner of 16th Street and Telegraph, in a bid to prevent access to the occupied building, but police drove demonstrators away from 16th Street using tear gas, flashbang grenades, and non-lethal rounds.
    The fact that you have seen police abuse doesn't make this article true.

    The agency I work for investigates police corruption and wrong doings so I am well aware that there are bad seeds in LE but that doesn't make them all bad.

    If this guy was abused and wasn't given medical treatment it will all come out but this article is all just what he is saying with no factual evidence presented other than he was injured. If it is found to be true I am all for the prosecution of the abusers but what you stated above is stupid. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    You are calling me a dipstick and you are the one that can't even read and comprehend the article you posted. OK. According to the article it was the OccuTards....
    But I meant no 'offense' - after all, you meant 'no offense' buy calling me clueless right

    Oh and I totally comprehend the article I posted - The ephasis was not on the 'Occutards' (looters/rioters/vandals), but on a man who was 'JWA' and was told to go somewhere else - when he questioned where, he was beat up by pigs to the point where he had a ruptured spleen and was forced to wait in agony for 18 hours.

    I think you are the one who needs a lesson on reading comprehension.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    maybe if he was riding a bike like we all do, the police would have been nicer...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    But I meant no 'offense' - after all, you meant 'no offense' buy calling me clueless right

    Oh and I totally comprehend the article I posted - The ephasis was not on the 'Occutards' (looters/rioters/vandals), but on a man who was 'JWA' and was told to go somewhere else - when he questioned where, he was beat up by pigs to the point where he had a ruptured spleen and was forced to wait in agony for 18 hours.

    I think you are the one who needs a lesson on reading comprehension.
    You are the one that said the tards weren't the ones occupying the building when the article clearly stated they were. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong.

    You obviously have a problem and lack of respect for LE so even if other evidence is presented your mind is already made up.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    You are the one that said the tards weren't the ones occupying the building when the article clearly stated they were. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong.

    You obviously have a problem and lack of respect for LE so even if other evidence is presented your mind is already made up.
    Oh?... where did I say that?

    Yes, I have a lack of respect for LE - ALL of my interaction with them throughout my life has been negative - even when asking for help with crime - so yeah...what else should I think?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by slacker666 View Post
    And yeah, per capita income in the US is growing, whether one looks in PPP terms, chained dollars, or (of course) nominal dollars. The point is that a stat of this nature is completely uninformative about the economic dislocation happening in this country -- not just because of the Lesser Depression, but that's certainly a capstone for a long term trend.
    Here is another stat for you to ponder.

    U.S. wealth gap between young and old is widest ever.

    The typical U.S. household headed by a person age 65 or older has a net worth 47 times greater than a household headed by someone under 35, according to an analysis of census data released Monday.

    While people typically accumulate assets as they age, this wealth gap is now more than double what it was in 2005 and nearly five times the 10-to-1 disparity a quarter-century ago, after adjusting for inflation
    Looking at how cities, like San Jose, and states, like California, and nation as a whole struggles with the ever rising cost of entitlement and pension programs - do not you think that "occupy" movement rage is thoroughly displaced.

    You can call for Major Blokhin, round up all the CEOs and bankers in the land, shoot them in the head and split the proceeds ( not an unprecedented turn of events in the world's history). And it still would not make a dent in the real problem. Older generation got themselves a deal that their children can not pay for. Whether we like it or not, whether it is fair or not, it is how it is.

    Just food for thought.

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    Anyone else have a problem with the term, "entitlement"?

    What does it mean exactly? Aren't all of our so-called "rights" just a set of rules "we the people" decided should be afforded to all people. "All people" of course now includes non-whites too. But I digress.

    It bugs me when people call health care an entitlement. Like it's much more of a stretch than access to clean drinking water, electricity, roads, and sewer. However, we decided that as a country it was important and beneficial for EVERYONE that we end cholera epidemics, have light after dark, are able to transport goods and people, and have a place to dispose of our excrement.

    How is health care considered an entitlement when poor people, government employees and their families have access to it for free? If we all share the cost, we can all have affordable, basic health care. I'm not talking about cosmetic surgeries, Cialis and experimental treatments, but basic care: vaccinations, antibiotics, stitches, casts, surgeries, treatments, medication. Yes, there will be waste...just like there is in the insurance industry (but they like to call it profit).

    The insurance companies are making a profit from pain and sickness. Anyone see a problem with that? If you had the cure for AIDS, but people were too poor to pay for it would you deny it to them and watch them die? Insurance companies do the equivalent of this all the time, for PAYING CUSTOMERS. I say cut this 1% loose. We already have systems in place for government employees that offer quality health care. Let's just extend that to all citizens and raise taxes to pay for it.

    And yes, I do believe in paying for what I use. Just like I pay for law enforcement, roads, levees, electricity, street lights, public school teachers. You know, all those entitlements.

    /rant
    "Got everything you need?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    Anyone else have a problem with the term, "entitlement"?

    What does it mean exactly? Aren't all of our so-called "rights" just a set of rules "we the people" decided should be afforded to all people. "All people" of course now includes non-whites too. But I digress.

    It bugs me when people call health care an entitlement. Like it's much more of a stretch than access to clean drinking water, electricity, roads, and sewer. However, we decided that as a country it was important and beneficial for EVERYONE that we end cholera epidemics, have light after dark, are able to transport goods and people, and have a place to dispose of our excrement.

    How is health care considered an entitlement when poor people, government employees and their families have access to it for free? If we all share the cost, we can all have affordable, basic health care. I'm not talking about cosmetic surgeries, Cialis and experimental treatments, but basic care: vaccinations, antibiotics, stitches, casts, surgeries, treatments, medication. Yes, there will be waste...just like there is in the insurance industry (but they like to call it profit).

    The insurance companies are making a profit from pain and sickness. Anyone see a problem with that? If you had the cure for AIDS, but people were too poor to pay for it would you deny it to them and watch them die? Insurance companies do the equivalent of this all the time, for PAYING CUSTOMERS. I say cut this 1% loose. We already have systems in place for government employees that offer quality health care. Let's just extend that to all citizens and raise taxes to pay for it.

    And yes, I do believe in paying for what I use. Just like I pay for law enforcement, roads, levees, electricity, street lights, public school teachers. You know, all those entitlements.

    /rant
    Govt. employees don't get healthcare for free. If they do then I am getting screwed because I work for the state and mine sure as hell isn't free.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by slacker666 View Post
    Finance accounts for a vastly larger share of the national pot than it did in 1980. Like, 3x as much. It is fair to ask what we have gained from all this brainpower spent on finding tiny flaws in market prices of ever-more complex instruments.
    Money supply to manage has tripled in a decade - with all the emerging economies joining the world market. And, believe it or not, US is the preferred destination for that money seeking returns. It would be exceedingly odd if the US finance industry did not grow accordingly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT: Occupy Oakland..-11.png  


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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post

    Yes, I have a lack of respect for LE - ALL of my interaction with them throughout my life has been negative - even when asking for help with crime - so yeah...what else should I think?
    Most likely due to your thuggish demeanor or bad attitude, LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    His point is that she pays a higher % of her earnings than he does as a billionaire. That his earnings include barely-taxed capital gains and stock dividends is part of the problem.

    He also takes a 100k/year salary, just for the record.

    Anyway, I commend you all for some of the decent discussion in this thread. I'm out though. I'm going to live comfortably and guilt free and stop bashing my head into a wall reading this thread!
    not to beat a dead horse (well maybe a little bit of beating), but let me clarify one of the arguments against raising the capital gains tax relative to 'earned' income...that argument is double taxation.

    let's take the warren buffett argument..say his company makes $100 in profits. the company then pays (just making numbers up as an example) $30 in corporate taxes (top corp tax rate is 35%). that leaves $70 in net income that goes to buffett and other shareholders. then assume that all of that money is then subject to capital gains or dividend taxes at 15% at an individual shareholder level. that's approximately another $10 in taxes levied on that initial $100 in profits before taxes.

    so the argument is that capital gains and dividend taxes should be low since that money is taxed at a corporate level first, then at the individual shareholder level...in the example above, total taxes of about 40% on that income. so while buffett pays a low tax rate, that money is taxed pretty heavily over all.

    that's the other side of the story as i see it....assuming my math is approximately correct. but if you ask me what i think we should be doing, it is to raise capital gains/dividend rates relative to earned income rates....by lower earned income rates at corporate and individual level and getting rid of most of the 'junk' deductions and credits that really distort behavior and narrow the tax base (ie, ge not paying any income taxes).

  52. #252
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    My God, this is one of the most moronic things I have ever read on this forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    The cops are a gang - and when they get to 'bust some heads' because of 'lowlifes, opposition, hippies, black...", they are all for it. It is a gang mentality - when one starts flinging their baton on someone - for no apparent reason - others jump in an do the same.

    Have you EVER, EVER, seen a cop stop a cop from smackin' someone?
    I'm sure it could happen, but the LEO never gets fired unless it so egregious that they HAVE to.

    This dood, a VET, who has seen more combat than most officers on that force - (combat that I may include was life/death - WAR vs. Protests), gets his shis beat? for what? ...Being in the area. - And then the way he gets treated while in custody - disgusting.

    Let's put VETs aside (I only brought it up because he has served this country and deserves 'gold' treatment - as all vets do.) and there are still the perfectly peaceful protesters using their RIGHT to assemble that get pelted, gassed and hit.
    They never 'catch' the looter, arsonist, vandal scum that hop on a protests' parade - the just decide that 'now is the time to flex my authority' - on whomever it may be.

    -And they get away with it - there's a charge of 'Obstruction' or 'Disorderly' that is ultimately dropped against the person BECAUSE there was NO proof - and beaten subject is free to TRY and sue the State/City - Good Luck - doubt they can afford an attorney that will go against the state or city.

    Anyways, NWA said it 'first'
    Highdelll, I have always enjoyed your posts and actually think you are an okay guy through your personality that comes through in your postings. Good sense of humor, not taking yourself too seriously, relatively big heart....you have lots of admirable traits.

    But what you wrote here...do you have a personal beef against law enforcement?

    I worked 15 years in law enforcement, got out as it was not the job for me anymore (messing with my head and was not a safe occupation to keep when my daughter was born). I have seen it all, done it all. I WAS A COP WHO STOPPED ANOTHER ONE FROM SMACKING SOMEONE. SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES. AND>>>>MOST ALL of the officers whom I worked with in a southern California and another northern California agency WOULD DO THE SAME THING!!!!!!

    Seriously, law enforcement officers are NOT the thugs you are saying they are. It is a DAMN tough job. They are expected to do what many are entirely incapable of doing, a completely thankless job protecting those who would just as soon kill them as do anything.

    The idea of "when they get away with it"....you really do not understand exactly how often an officer is called on the carpet to answer for a complaint from a disgruntled citizen, you do not understand how often an officer is let go for the smallest of transgressions, usually not even something justified, but the agency cannot take the chance that a small problem becomes a larger one. You are operating on the assumption as you are most likely because of what you see in the media. The media reports on the big crap, the really bad-seeds that somehow get through the selection process and get a job as an officer when they should not. You hear about the extreme cases, not the everyday stuff that an officer just has to put up with, things that threaten their jobs, their livelihood, just because someone like you gets pissed off and makes a complaint (founded or unfounded) against the officer. If the media reported on exactly how many real disgruntled jerks make complaints, jerks whose arrests end up being adjudicated as guilty for the crime they DID commit, just because they are pissed off for being CAUGHT doing something they KNOW they should not do...you might have a different attitude.

    Look, if you have not walked in the shoes of the ones you are bashing, if you have not been in that job as an officer, then you have NO RIGHT to say a damn thing.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    My God, this is one of the most moronic things I have ever read on this forum:



    Highdelll, I have always enjoyed your posts and actually think you are an okay guy through your personality that comes through in your postings. Good sense of humor, not taking yourself too seriously, relatively big heart....you have lots of admirable traits.

    But what you wrote here...do you have a personal beef against law enforcement?

    I worked 15 years in law enforcement, got out as it was not the job for me anymore (messing with my head and was not a safe occupation to keep when my daughter was born). I have seen it all, done it all. I WAS A COP WHO STOPPED ANOTHER ONE FROM SMACKING SOMEONE. SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES. AND>>>>MOST ALL of the officers whom I worked with in a southern California and another northern California agency WOULD DO THE SAME THING!!!!!!

    Seriously, law enforcement officers are NOT the thugs you are saying they are. It is a DAMN tough job. They are expected to do what many are entirely incapable of doing, a completely thankless job protecting those who would just as soon kill them as do anything.

    The idea of "when they get away with it"....you really do not understand exactly how often an officer is called on the carpet to answer for a complaint from a disgruntled citizen, you do not understand how often an officer is let go for the smallest of transgressions, usually not even something justified, but the agency cannot take the chance that a small problem becomes a larger one. You are operating on the assumption as you are most likely because of what you see in the media. The media reports on the big crap, the really bad-seeds that somehow get through the selection process and get a job as an officer when they should not. You hear about the extreme cases, not the everyday stuff that an officer just has to put up with, things that threaten their jobs, their livelihood, just because someone like you gets pissed off and makes a complaint (founded or unfounded) against the officer. If the media reported on exactly how many real disgruntled jerks make complaints, jerks whose arrests end up being adjudicated as guilty for the crime they DID commit, just because they are pissed off for being CAUGHT doing something they KNOW they should not do...you might have a different attitude.

    Look, if you have not walked in the shoes of the ones you are bashing, if you have not been in that job as an officer, then you have NO RIGHT to say a damn thing.
    I'm not saying the police officer job is easy or that all cops are bad. I know a few good people that became police officers. But you all wear the same uniform, carry guns and walk two at a time. Just saying.

    Historically police have not been/are not kind to minorities. LGBT, women, people of color. This is a fact. You can not argue with this. Departments across this nation allow/ignore/promote racial stereotyping. In larger cities police ignore urgent/immediate sexual harassment complaints from women all the time.

    In NYC what about Adrian Schoolcraft's story. Serpico broke out is this past generation or so. How long has it really been since the Black Panther's and BLA's last excursion with the police? Do you really think they were just a bunch of misguided youths acting on impulse? Same thing with the London riots?
    Who is it the bank calls when they need to take evict someone out of their "previous" home?
    Remember that law that passed this past summer in AZ? Where cops were allowed to/were ordered to stop, question, possibly search anyone they thought could be an illegal alien? That law that was set forth initially by an active white supremacist.

    I'm glad you've been treated well by law enforcement. (I am seriously being absolutely genuine when I say that)
    But please understand some people view the police in a negative light for a very legitimate reason and at the end of the day police are like soldiers, they have to do as they are told or else they may be fired. They have kids to feed like everyone else.

    I'm sure it is fairly obvious now but should clarify that I consider myself part of the 99% and support it (for the most part)

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    My God, this is one of the most moronic things I have ever read on this forum:



    Highdelll, I have always enjoyed your posts and actually think you are an okay guy through your personality that comes through in your postings. Good sense of humor, not taking yourself too seriously, relatively big heart....you have lots of admirable traits.

    But what you wrote here...do you have a personal beef against law enforcement?

    I worked 15 years in law enforcement, got out as it was not the job for me anymore (messing with my head and was not a safe occupation to keep when my daughter was born). I have seen it all, done it all. I WAS A COP WHO STOPPED ANOTHER ONE FROM SMACKING SOMEONE. SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES. AND>>>>MOST ALL of the officers whom I worked with in a southern California and another northern California agency WOULD DO THE SAME THING!!!!!!

    Seriously, law enforcement officers are NOT the thugs you are saying they are. It is a DAMN tough job. They are expected to do what many are entirely incapable of doing, a completely thankless job protecting those who would just as soon kill them as do anything.

    The idea of "when they get away with it"....you really do not understand exactly how often an officer is called on the carpet to answer for a complaint from a disgruntled citizen, you do not understand how often an officer is let go for the smallest of transgressions, usually not even something justified, but the agency cannot take the chance that a small problem becomes a larger one. You are operating on the assumption as you are most likely because of what you see in the media. The media reports on the big crap, the really bad-seeds that somehow get through the selection process and get a job as an officer when they should not. You hear about the extreme cases, not the everyday stuff that an officer just has to put up with, things that threaten their jobs, their livelihood, just because someone like you gets pissed off and makes a complaint (founded or unfounded) against the officer. If the media reported on exactly how many real disgruntled jerks make complaints, jerks whose arrests end up being adjudicated as guilty for the crime they DID commit, just because they are pissed off for being CAUGHT doing something they KNOW they should not do...you might have a different attitude.

    Look, if you have not walked in the shoes of the ones you are bashing, if you have not been in that job as an officer, then you have NO RIGHT to say a damn thing.
    "Most moronic things..."?
    I assure you, I am on the opposite side of the scale to 'Moron'.

    I'm glad you were a cop who stopped another cop from smacking someone - but you are the exception.

    YOU know and many others know that the 'cop brotherhood' prevents from cops admonishing other cops. - "What goes down stays DOWN"
    Listen, I was a child of a cop and I even went so far as to study ADJ for two years before the service. I may have not been a cop - but, I know how 'things' go and where 'priorities' are.
    - on a 'light' note - search for help from LE for a stolen bike. a 2.5k bike is stolen - no one cares - a $800 Honda is jacked and there are 8 units.

    I have had several interactions w cops throughout my life (not me being a guilty party) and they have been negative - my family and friends have negative interactions.

    I Personally have been arrested and charged with 'resisting, interfering..." and deemed uncooperative for asserting my 1st and 4th AND 5th amendment rights - and refusing to 'show my papers (remember Nazi Germany?)
    Nevermind treatment once behind bars by lackey jailors.
    And no, I was not a mouthy-punk - I said things like "I do not consent to search" or "Unless you have reasonable suspicion, I do not have to tell you my name" - all calmly and polite. These things ended up w/ me being assaulted. All trumped-up charges later dropped - but what good is that? I miss work for being in jail - not to mention the negative connotation that goes with it. I miss a nice Saturday? - All for following the US Constitution?

    So, yeah, I DO have a right to say a 'damn thing' -
    Last edited by highdelll; 11-09-2011 at 01:57 AM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  55. #255
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    HIghdelll, I understand your angst against law enforcement, but what I am reading here is, as usual with any reported beef against the law, only one side of the story. I would love to know what the other side is. In my experience, most anyone on this freaking planet, not just law enforcement, only escalates when given the correct motivation. Law enforcement is trained to keep it civil and calm in situations where attitudes and feelings are elevated. When they do start to push back, it is usually IN RESPONSE to an attitude, an act, or a threat. Their job is NOT to start things, and they usually never do, they are tasked with ending things.

    Granted, there are a bunch of adam henrys that get into the job and make it hard for those of us who are the right ones in the uniform. I despise those idiots more than any of you possibly can, being able to see it all from the inside.

    That is another thing, so many of you think there is some sort of brotherhood amongst cops that make them "protect their own"....I would like to call any other law enforcement, or former law enforcement, on these boards to speak up on this. In my experience, officers who are faced with the moral and ethical dilemmas that we have discussed in this thread will not protect one of their peers who is committing what amounts to criminal action. They will roll over on their "brothers" as fast as anyone else, because it is the right things to do. Seriously, you people all think that the crap you see on the police procedural shows are all true, that the hopped up claims by the media (who report things in a spin to sell more TV/Newspaper adverts and gain viewership) are truthful.

    I agree if your civil rights are walked on there should be retribution and correction. That is a given. I am sorry you and your family have had historically poor contacts and experiences with law enforcement. But I stand by my belief that things do not happen in these cases for no reason. Officers would not have given you crap attitude if there was no reason for it.

    As far as the disparity between the report of an expensive mountain bike vs a sheetbox car...non-bicycling folk are all the same in their perspective, cops no different than anyone else. They all view bikes as toys and cars as vehicles. I had a hell of a time getting my peers to look at the theft of a good bike as a serious crime. I am right there with you on the bad feelings about that.

    Icarusfins, at the end of the day police are NOT like soldiers. Soldiers, although a greatly admirable duty in my eyes, and understandably difficult, do not face the moral and ethical situations every freaking minute of the day like law enforcement. They do not have the luxury of being able to have the perspective of "just following orders". They have laws that guide them, policy and procedure, but for the most part they have to make in-the-moment decisions that are a constant test of right-and-wrong, letter of the law vs intent of the law. They are constantly being faced and tested by moral and ethical issues. They have to do all this with what they bring to the job each day personally. They do not have the luxury of standing behind a hierarchy of superiors for each and every task. They do defer decisions to their supervisors and leaders in certain cases, but for the most part, each and every thing they do they are all on their own in the decision process.

    I respect everyone's opinion. I respect the fact you are making a stand, deciding you are with the 99% or against it, backing law enforcement or against them. This is the basic freedom we have that makes this country great. I will not agree with what you think or what you say necessarily, but I will respect you.

    Thanks.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  56. #256
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    I work EMS in Oakland. The PD there deals with more crap than most of you can imagine. The Domestic Violence, the Gangs, the drugs, the poverty. I was there when 4 Oakland PD officers were gunned down and died. You have no idea what it is like to always wonder if someone is going to try and take you out on every call. We in EMS out there deal with a fraction of the paranoia that they do and I will say this, I am damn glad to see that OPD Black and White unit when I am out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Cut View Post
    I work EMS in Oakland. The PD there deals with more crap than most of you can imagine. The Domestic Violence, the Gangs, the drugs, the poverty. I was there when 4 Oakland PD officers were gunned down and died. You have no idea what it is like to always wonder if someone is going to try and take you out on every call. We in EMS out there deal with a fraction of the paranoia that they do and I will say this, I am damn glad to see that OPD Black and White unit when I am out there.

    Bokchoy: Thanks Bro, you had one of the hardest jobs on the planet
    Not disagreeing with you but just a need to correct/clarify for you

    PD everywhere deal with more **** than most people imagine.

    How many of these police officers harass people they think it is okay to harass? Have you been on the majority of these calls participating with them? I'm thinking you do not have that great of a grasp on their experiences either FIRE and EMT do not get sent in to a scene until it is safe. I'm only thinking this because you haven't said other wise.

    Just because the job is horrendously difficult does not make them righteous nor innocent.

    Look up Adrian Schoolcraft NYC. Were those cops justified? They had a lot to deal with too.

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    not a gang mentality? - 'funny' how one starts and they all follow - you can imagine how it would be if one cop REALLy started wailing.

    where are you, Bokchoicowboy archetype? (stopping a smackin')
    FTP
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Regarding the above video, I see an apparently angry mob that has pushed a smaller group of armed / armored people into a corner. The outcome of that is predictable.

    What happens after that is telling. After a few moments of chaos, organized chants start, from the back of the group, chanting "Stop beating students. That's where the experienced organizers are, not up front getting smacked with a billy club. Having worked in a place where protests are part of the environment for the past 20 years, I can tell you that at least some of those organizers were / are quite happy to see folks get beat like that. They got the video clip they wanted, they got the new "victims" they wanted, they got some new people radicalized.

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    Should be Occupy The White House. The OWS crowd are foolish pawns used to deflect the REAL corruption of the Obama administration. Solyndra, who got a half billlion of money (completely bypassing Congress approval) and now the CEO/CFO/COO refuse to talk! And now the Justice Dept. sending automatic weapons to Mexico and AG Holder covering up..this guy is a Janet Reno incarnate..these are the news items that should be in the news..not some homeless ****** bags who can't agree on any topic of protest. Yeah, lets hear it for Socialism...think Cuba, Greece, etc.
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  62. #262
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    Wait a sec those are UC cops NOT OPD

    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    not a gang mentality? - 'funny' how one starts and they all follow - you can imagine how it would be if one cop REALLy started wailing.

    where are you, Bokchoicowboy archetype? (stopping a smackin')
    FTP
    They like BART cops are special district jurisdictions. Also alot of those so called students arent students at all let alone from berkeley or oakland.

  63. #263
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    There is gang mentality, always will be. It comes from association, part of human nature, and is very hard to over come. In situations, there are triggers that spark gang reaction.

    Police are not always innocent. Some are intentional, some are incorrect situational reactions. Civilians are not always innocent neither.

    I've never been a fan of LE, I will admit that. It's the thuggish behavior I get during my encounters. I realized it's a standard pattern that they do to try to get the upper hand from the start. Example, get a speeding ticket in a speed trap, and it's usually Mr. ******* who comes up and starts yelling at you. Everyone speeds 5-10mph over, so give me the ticket and move on. The BS won't help at all and will only make the wrong impression.

    My bias stated, LE can't be broad brushed. They are people and have the same attitude mixture as with the human population. They do need to be more careful, until the situation can be assessed, and many things happen in the first few moments. The rioting situation is tough, you just don't know how the other "gang" in the video will react. The other gang are the demonstrators, and they outnumber the LE 20:1 easily. If they go full out riot, people will get hurt. The LE are cognizant of this, and get on edge. No excuses though, bad judgement.

    In the bike video, that's Mr. *******, and Mr. Lying Prick, and I hope he got fired. Some people join LE to bolster their own ego. I think there are psych exams to try and weed these people out, but it's not foolproof.

    I'm not sure what the latest spur is really about. There are good and bad seeds. It will never change. The bad seeds may trigger a reaction (pack attacks) in some cases, and they need to be dealt with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Warren Buffets company, Birkshire Hathaway is behind in taxes to the tune of $1billion dollars. Why are you listening to this idiot??

    If this billionairre idiot really feels we should have higher taxes - why doesnt he pay what he owes, for starters??
    The billionairre idiot does not want to pay higher taxes but less. That is why he structured most of his compensation as capital gains rather than income. Same reason why Steve Jobs salary was $2, or $1 paid per half year. And the rest of his composition which was probably more than 99% was structured as capital gains.

    BTW, stock dividends are counted as interest income and not capital gains.

    Buffet's very public show about paying more in taxes was probably to court favor with Obama for Birkshire, ala GE who pays no corporate taxes.

    USA Corporate tax rate is the highest in the industrial world at 35%, but the average corporate tax paid is ~7%.

    The reason why I favor the tea party over the 99%'ers is the tea party's willingness to throw all bums out, regardless if they are a democrat or republican. 99%'ers strike me as lazy people complaining there is not enough free entitlements for them rather than working.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cobb View Post
    Very interesting perspective. However it does not change my feelings toward corporate greed.

    So who do you work for? Want them to fold? What corporation makes that bike you ride? How about that car you drive? Want them to fold? What are you going to replace capitalism with? Communisim? How'd that work out for the USSR? Cuba?




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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    So who do you work for? Want them to fold? What corporation makes that bike you ride? How about that car you drive? Want them to fold? What are you going to replace capitalism with? Communisim? How'd that work out for the USSR? Cuba?

    Grow up.

    .
    China is a communist government. And they also make most of that stuff you just mentioned. Things seem to be working out pretty good for them lately.

    I don't think it's a good form of government since it infringes on personal freedom, which is important. However, a system in which the ultra rich have undue influence over the government, media outlets, and literally the laws of our nation is worse. There are many examples of socialism and social democracies that have proven to be successful in preserving personal liberty and fostering strong economies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    So who do you work for? Want them to fold? What corporation makes that bike you ride? How about that car you drive? Want them to fold? What are you going to replace capitalism with? Communisim? How'd that work out for the USSR? Cuba?
    It's not that black and white, in my opinion, and I didn't notice Capt. Cobb insulting you or suggesting you were immature.

    Saying one is against corporate greed isn't the same thing as being a communist. Take the recent wall street bailouts. I'll stipulate that we need a finance system. But it strikes me that for some of those same companies to then turn around and pay their top staff "performance" bonuses after we taxpayers pulled their fat out of the fire pretty much defines greed and an "entitlement" mentality.

    Or how about predatory marketing and pricing by some companies, practices intended to put other companies out of business? Or companies that knowingly skirt safety or pollution prevention laws? There's nothing wrong with making money and being successful by providing goods or services that people want. But there's everything wrong with doing so by being unethical and hurting the community or country.

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    It's not that black and white, in my opinion, and I didn't notice Capt. Cobb insulting you or suggesting you were immature.

    ....
    You are correct,, I was out of line. Found myself projecting my frustration with the "occupiers" who have never held a job, live on daddy's coin at school, dont know what they are "occupying" for, and have no answers. The professional protesters just run them around like a dog on a leash and it frustrates the heck out of me.
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    I imagine 100% of them are smart enough to lie to a pollster about their actual employment status and education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    You are correct,, I was out of line. Found myself projecting my frustration with the "occupiers" who have never held a job, live on daddy's coin at school, dont know what they are "occupying" for, and have no answers. The professional protesters just run them around like a dog on a leash and it frustrates the heck out of me.
    I don't think your assumptions about the "occupiers" are based in fact. Generalizations like you've made are just like racist comments: inaccurate at best. According to recent polls, only 10-15% are unemployed, 10% are students, 75% are 25 years old or older, and only 10% have not had at least some college. About 70% consider themselves "independents", whereas a lot of people assume they are all a bunch of left wingnuts.

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  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    I imagine 100% of them are smart enough to lie to a pollster about their actual employment status and education.
    I imagine that you are 100% wrong. Hey, this making up statistics thing is awesome!
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    The reason China is advancing in the world is because they are departing from Communism and becoming a Capitalist nation.

    Capitalism might seem hurtful and unfair, but it raises everybody's standard of living. America has the richest poor people in the world... all because of capitalism and those d!ckhead rich guys that make killer stuff that we want to consume.

    I think they should have socialism grading in school. No failures because we need equality and even the non-ambitious, the dumb, and the kids who don't give the slightest damn should get a PhD. Yeah, that would fix everything. And while we're at it, just print out tons of money.

    Why is it that so many can't see the big picture?

    You want income inequality? Go to Nigeria and see how being poor is while the ultra powerful government agents control ALL the money and give you none. Or how about Libya? Quadaffi was the richest man on the planet with 200 billion socked away.

    America is still the best place to play. Yep, and if you don't agree, Cuba has just what your college professor told you you want... and it's not too far away... I can get you a one way ticket.

    Quitcher griping and make something of yourself.

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    How'd that work out for the USSR?
    Badly. I wish all those people had been there to witness.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Saying one is against corporate greed isn't the same thing as being a communist. Take the recent wall street bailouts. I'll stipulate that we need a finance system. But it strikes me that for some of those same companies to then turn around and pay their top staff "performance" bonuses after we taxpayers pulled their fat out of the fire pretty much defines greed and an "entitlement" mentality.
    We need a better corporate management and accounting. Improved tax code, disclosure, more independent boards etc.

    But in fact, we already pretty darn good. Look at Japan's corporate governance. Look at European bureaucracy. That is why US attracts capital. That is why all those start-ups around here keep changing the world.

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoggyGoggles View Post
    what is wrong with this conclusion:
    The wealthiest should pay a war time tax until this war is over.
    The wrong part is that punitive taxes will end up punishing the poor more then the wealthy. Laffer curve is a fact of life.

    You need to keep an eye on what you want to achieve (like funding infrastructure, education, research etc.) not how you want to achieve it. Taxing the rich is only useful if it actually achieves your goals.

  76. #276
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    1. War time income tax rates for the top 1% was 75 to 95% in the 20th century (WW1, WW2, Korean, Vietnam). Crazy huh!

    2. Current income tax rate on the top 1% is 35%. Tax cuts under Reagan, Clinton and Bush43 got us there.

    3. The current 5 front war on terror (Iraq, Afghanistan, Arabian Peninsula, Libya, Homeland Security) requires a massive, massive budget to maintain. It is one of the MAJOR contributors to the debt. Right wing bros:take a deep breath, I know entitlement programs also require a massive budget too. But look at the data, the defense budget is HUGE.

    what is wrong with this conclusion:
    The wealthiest should pay a war time tax until this war is over.
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." - D.H. Lawrence

  77. #277
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    This seems to fit here:

    (Thanks to whomever originally posted this a few months back!)

    P
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT: Occupy Oakland..-political-discourse.gif  


  78. #278
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    Let me expand it: everyone should pay a war time tax until the war is over and our men and women are home
    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." - D.H. Lawrence

  79. #279
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    The occupy movement is not about 'damn the man'. It's about politics being run by corporate money, policy controlled by corporate greed. And no, corporate greed does not always make for policies that are in the best interests of the majority of people affected by it. Capitalism does work, and changes brought by movements such as this are part of a functional capitalist society.
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  80. #280
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    The 10-year old foster kid my wife placed in her 5th home today can't get basic services like psychotherapy. It's not her fault, the system is ****ed. My health insurance has tripled since I started my own business 10 years ago. I never go to the doctor because my deductible is so high. The schools are ****, with 30 kids in a kindergarten classroom. These kids don't even know what taxes are, and they don't know the 1% pay for private school with 10 or 15 kids to a class. The old guy next door turned off his hot water because social security doesn't cover the bills. He worked hard all his life and is living in poverty. This stuff is not ok and nobody should be telling anybody to buck up and work a little harder. In a democracy, when enough people become outraged about something, they get together and make changes. That is what is starting to happen now. This movement has legs, and in the end, the 1% are going to have to let go of some puny part of their massive fortunes, because they are seriously outnumbered, and people are pissed.
    The armchair economists can argue charts and graphs and try to paint the poor with broad brushes, but in the end, people get it. Change is coming.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    The 10-year old foster kid my wife placed in her 5th home today can't get basic services like psychotherapy. It's not her fault, the system is ****ed. My health insurance has tripled since I started my own business 10 years ago. I never go to the doctor because my deductible is so high. The schools are ****, with 30 kids in a kindergarten classroom. These kids don't even know what taxes are, and they don't know the 1% pay for private school with 10 or 15 kids to a class. The old guy next door turned off his hot water because social security doesn't cover the bills. He worked hard all his life and is living in poverty. This stuff is not ok and nobody should be telling anybody to buck up and work a little harder. In a democracy, when enough people become outraged about something, they get together and make changes. That is what is starting to happen now. This movement has legs, and in the end, the 1% are going to have to let go of some puny part of their massive fortunes, because they are seriously outnumbered, and people are pissed.
    The armchair economists can argue charts and graphs and try to paint the poor with broad brushes, but in the end, people get it. Change is coming.
    So what country on Earth and in history would you rather live in (and run your business)? Can that country accommodate 300 million people?

    The only change that is definitely coming is that all the social programs (here, and in Europe) will run out of money and there are not enough rich people to tax to cover the bills.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    The 10-year old foster kid my wife placed in her 5th home today can't get basic services like psychotherapy. It's not her fault, the system is ****ed. My health insurance has tripled since I started my own business 10 years ago. I never go to the doctor because my deductible is so high. The schools are ****, with 30 kids in a kindergarten classroom. These kids don't even know what taxes are, and they don't know the 1% pay for private school with 10 or 15 kids to a class. The old guy next door turned off his hot water because social security doesn't cover the bills. He worked hard all his life and is living in poverty. This stuff is not ok and nobody should be telling anybody to buck up and work a little harder. In a democracy, when enough people become outraged about something, they get together and make changes. That is what is starting to happen now. This movement has legs, and in the end, the 1% are going to have to let go of some puny part of their massive fortunes, because they are seriously outnumbered, and people are pissed.
    The armchair economists can argue charts and graphs and try to paint the poor with broad brushes, but in the end, people get it. Change is coming.
    Public schools are screwed by the unions and the party that continues to support the union's sheer stupidity.

    Health insurance, that's a damn tough one. Health costs are low in Zimbabwe... My point is, it's just one of those costly things, but competition is the one thing that can bring it down... some...

    Social Security is a crock. I'll never see any of it, but I've sure as hell paid my share in.

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    The occupy movement is not about 'damn the man'. It's about politics being run by corporate money, policy controlled by corporate greed. And no, corporate greed does not always make for policies that are in the best interests of the majority of people affected by it. Capitalism does work, and changes brought by movements such as this are part of a functional capitalist society.

    Careful, that sort of reason has no place on an internet forum.

    We need election reform to try and pry the system out of corporate hands.

    We should also restructure the Senate while we're at it, so we're not structuring laws and reforms around what can be approved in a system where residents of Montana and South Dakota have 60x the representation that we CA residents have.

    Anyone who says that the OWS movement is about jobless slackers looking for handouts is horrendously lazy and ignorant. The people getting up to go to protests have probably been 100% more politically active than any of us in here. There's a reason the right to peaceful assembly is in the 1st amendment.

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    The occupy movement is not about 'damn the man'. It's about politics being run by corporate money, policy controlled by corporate greed. And no, corporate greed does not always make for policies that are in the best interests of the majority of people affected by it. Capitalism does work, and changes brought by movements such as this are part of a functional capitalist society.

    Careful, that sort of reason has no place on an internet forum.

    We need election reform to try and pry the system out of corporate hands.

    We should also restructure the Senate while we're at it, so we're not structuring laws and reforms around what can be approved in a system where residents of Montana and South Dakota have 60x the representation that we CA residents have.

    Anyone who says that the OWS movement is about jobless slackers looking for handouts is horrendously lazy and ignorant. The people getting up to go to protests have probably been 100% more politically active than any of us in here. There's a reason the right to peaceful assembly is in the 1st amendment.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    The occupy movement is not about 'damn the man'. It's about politics being run by corporate money, policy controlled by corporate greed. And no, corporate greed does not always make for policies that are in the best interests of the majority of people affected by it. Capitalism does work, and changes brought by movements such as this are part of a functional capitalist society.

    Careful, that sort of reason has no place on an internet forum.

    We need election reform to try and pry the system out of corporate hands.

    We should also restructure the Senate while we're at it, so we're not structuring laws and reforms around what can be approved in a system where residents of Montana and South Dakota have 60x the representation that we CA residents have.

    Anyone who says that the OWS movement is about jobless slackers looking for handouts is horrendously lazy and ignorant. The people getting up to go to protests have probably been 100% more politically active than any of us in here. There's a reason the right to peaceful assembly is in the 1st amendment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    So what country on Earth and in history would you rather live in (and run your business)? Can that country accommodate 300 million people?

    The only change that is definitely coming is that all the social programs (here, and in Europe) will run out of money and there are not enough rich people to tax to cover the bills.
    I'm going to stay right here in America, thank you, and continue to cheer on the OWS movement. In this country, when people see things in their daily life that are not OK, they have a right to make a stink about it. When enough people agree and get organized, it becomes a movement and things start to happen. The OWS people may not get all the myriad things you hear them say they want, but I guarantee you they have changed the conversation in this country away from "how can the rich vacuum even more money out of the 99% and get them to take a little less in return."

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    We need election reform to try and pry the system out of corporate hands.
    How about them public employee unions? Do you think they should be politically involved in how we spend taxpayer moneys?

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    When enough people agree and get organized, it becomes a movement and things start to happen.
    Things? I am still waiting on them to propose anything that is a) realistic b) makes any sense.

    People got organized during Socialist Revolution in Russia. And during revolution in Iran. Not making any parallels, but it seems to me that people getting organized does not guarantee any positive results at all.

    US constitution states this is a republic. Not a democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Things? I am still waiting on them to propose anything that is a) realistic b) makes any sense.

    People got organized during Socialist Revolution in Russia. And during revolution in Iran. Not making any parallels, but it seems to me that people getting organized does not guarantee any positive results at all.
    Bingo. History is a great teacher. That's some real class warfare, waged by people who had had enough. Nasty, ugly, violent, ultimately unsuccessful. But it's what always happens when the gap gets too big. One would think that those with the means to avoid such things would do so, out of their own enlightened self interest. Instead, they tell the unwashed to go home and suck on it. Sit down and shut up. Adopt a third world lifestyle to compete with third world countries. That's not going to fly for long.

    Your thing about America not being a democracy is just obtuse.

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    and now one dead at Frank Ogawa Plaza after two groups of African American males got into a fight and one person started shooting [radio interview with the chief of OPD on KCBS]...what a waste

    Mercury News article as a slighly different take than the KCBS radio interview with the chief
    Man shot and killed near Occupy Oakland - San Jose Mercury News
    warning graphic pics of the man who was shot
    Warning: Consumption of alcohol may make you think the person on the barstool next to you is attractive

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    Bingo. History is a great teacher. That's some real class warfare, waged by people who had had enough. Nasty, ugly, violent, ultimately unsuccessful. But it's what always happens when the gap gets too big. One would think that those with the means to avoid such things would do so, out of their own enlightened self interest. Instead, they tell the unwashed to go home and suck on it. Sit down and shut up. Adopt a third world lifestyle to compete with third world countries. That's not going to fly for long.
    I have mentioned above the numbers on generational wealth gap. (post 247). Current young generation is the first generation in history that does not have better living standard then their parents. And baby boomers is the first generation that is not passing wealth down.

    Should young people rebel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    Your thing about America not being a democracy is just obtuse.
    Did you read the constitution? There is no such word there. It is a republic. It is not the same. Power should be exercised by elected officials according to law, not according to a popular vote (like we like to do with budgeting by balloting).

  92. #292
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    THAT'S IT!!
    I'm gonna move to antartica - It's not a country ... so I can do what I want.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    How about them public employee unions? Do you think they should be politically involved in how we spend taxpayer moneys?
    Sure, to the same extent that corporations have lobbyists, special interest groups have lobbyists, and so on. Countervailing forces. But there ought to be better limits on how much money or influence can be brought to bear.

    I don't think you are right about this generation being "the first in history" to have lower standard of living than their parents. Perhaps the 1st in the US in the 20th century, but there have been economic cycles throughout history.

    I agree with TF about the republic / democracy thing. If you aren't being obtuse, , it's just a side issue. Even in a republic, the elected officials are supposed to generally reflect the values of those they represent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    The 10-year old foster kid my wife placed in her 5th home today can't get basic services like psychotherapy. It's not her fault, the system is ****ed. My health insurance has tripled since I started my own business 10 years ago. I never go to the doctor because my deductible is so high. The schools are ****, with 30 kids in a kindergarten classroom. These kids don't even know what taxes are, and they don't know the 1% pay for private school with 10 or 15 kids to a class. The old guy next door turned off his hot water because social security doesn't cover the bills. He worked hard all his life and is living in poverty. This stuff is not ok and nobody should be telling anybody to buck up and work a little harder. In a democracy, when enough people become outraged about something, they get together and make changes. That is what is starting to happen now. This movement has legs, and in the end, the 1% are going to have to let go of some puny part of their massive fortunes, because they are seriously outnumbered, and people are pissed.
    The armchair economists can argue charts and graphs and try to paint the poor with broad brushes, but in the end, people get it. Change is coming.
    And how is this the 1% ers fault. All of these issues you raised are because of the govt not the wealthy. The problem with ows is the blame is in the wrong place and they are looking at the govt to fix the problem. How can they fix the problem when they are the problem?

    It really sickens me that people think the solution is to forcefully take money from people who legitimately earned it. Let the ows get their way and watch the wealthy leave the country. Once that happens guess who they are coming after next. Yep. The middle class.

  95. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcatCC View Post
    Public schools are screwed by the unions and the party that continues to support the union's sheer stupidity.
    True, but that is not the whole story. The state of Ca consumes 50% of the state education budget in the distribution of the other 50%. So half the money they have for public schools never leaves Sacramento. The statistics for welfare, at both the state and federal level, are even worse. To a certain extent, it's not that we can't afford excellent public education, and welfare for the truly needy (people handicapped by social or emotional disorders, etc.) it's just that we can't afford our government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    True, but that is not the whole story. The state of Ca consumes 50% of the state education budget in the distribution of the other 50%. So half the money they have for public schools never leaves Sacramento. The statistics for welfare, at both the state and federal level, are even worse. To a certain extent, it's not that we can't afford excellent public education, and welfare for the truly needy (people handicapped by social or emotional disorders, etc.) it's just that we can't afford our government.
    Well, that's just disgusting.

    And then they say they need to tax the people more to improve things...

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    And along the same theme as 'we can't afford our government'. Several reputable news agencies have reported that the Obama Admin 'considered a bailout for Solyndra', rather than let them go into bankruptcy.

    This is almost funny, except that it isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    True, but that is not the whole story. The state of Ca consumes 50% of the state education budget in the distribution of the other 50%. So half the money they have for public schools never leaves Sacramento. The statistics for welfare, at both the state and federal level, are even worse. To a certain extent, it's not that we can't afford excellent public education, and welfare for the truly needy (people handicapped by social or emotional disorders, etc.) it's just that we can't afford our government.
    When you throw in all of the fraud in the social programs it is even more disgusting to see how much is wasted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    And how is this the 1% ers fault. All of these issues you raised are because of the govt not the wealthy. The problem with ows is the blame is in the wrong place and they are looking at the govt to fix the problem. How can they fix the problem when they are the problem?

    It really sickens me that people think the solution is to forcefully take money from people who legitimately earned it. Let the ows get their way and watch the wealthy leave the country. Once that happens guess who they are coming after next. Yep. The middle class.
    So who is going to help a 10 year old kid that's been utterly failed by her parents? How about 60,000 of them in California alone? She is innocent innocent in all this. So are the kids that had their neighborhood school closed for lack of money in the district. A little bit higher taxes would open that school right back up. It's easy to think of people that want/need government help as some abstract thing, but a huge number of them are in their situation through no fault of their own and without government help, their going to be living in cardboard boxes and robbing you when they get older. What sickens me is the rich insisting they're going to leave the country if they have to kick in a little more to help the least among us. ******** they are. It's not going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    So who is going to help a 10 year old kid that's been utterly failed by her parents? How about 60,000 of them in California alone? She is innocent innocent in all this. So are the kids that had their neighborhood school closed for lack of money in the district. A little bit higher taxes would open that school right back up. It's easy to think of people that want/need government help as some abstract thing, but a huge number of them are in their situation through no fault of their own and without government help, their going to be living in cardboard boxes and robbing you when they get older. What sickens me is the rich insisting they're going to leave the country if they have to kick in a little more to help the least among us. ******** they are. It's not going to happen.
    Charitable, good, loving people will hopefully help out with that... Foster parents, parents that adopt, charities, etc. That is the best thing that can happen to those kids.

    As for the schools, gotta cut the waste.

    But we really need to get to the bottom of these problems instead of constantly applying bandages. Why are there 60,000 kids that are failed by their parents? That's a sad situation indeed.

  101. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    And how is this the 1% ers fault. All of these issues you raised are because of the govt not the wealthy. The problem with ows is the blame is in the wrong place and they are looking at the govt to fix the problem. How can they fix the problem when they are the problem?

    It really sickens me that people think the solution is to forcefully take money from people who legitimately earned it. Let the ows get their way and watch the wealthy leave the country. Once that happens guess who they are coming after next. Yep. The middle class.
    If all that is keeping the wealthy here is the money they are making, then I certainly won't miss them. I'll take their spot and actually pay decent wages with benefits, instead of trying to screw people by only offering them part time work, or laying them off when the management has a brain fart.

    It only takes one time of working for a decent company until you realize how crooked some of the mega-corps are. They abuse every system they can to maximize profits and don't give a rats a$$ about anything else. They take bailouts, post record profits, still screw their own customers, and lay off employees. They destroy the environment, which belongs to everyone, even those not born yet. The products they offer are overly expensive and sub-standard and only exist because they hold a monopoly on the market, or paralyze small competitors through lawsuits (AT&T, Comcast, Big Oil). Since they obviously don't care about me, my children, and the future of our nation, I don't give a rip what happens to them. If they can't stay in business I won't shed a single tear.

    On the flip side, there are many companies that place the quality of their product and treatment of their employees above profit. These companies realize the importance of environmental stewardship. These companies expect employees to work hard, but compensate them fairly, and ensure they stay productive by offering health benefits. Retirement plans, health insurance, and a decent wages do not come cheap, but the type of employee you attract ensures that your company will continue to produce quality products in a sustainable manner.
    "Got everything you need?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcatCC View Post
    Charitable, good, loving people will hopefully help out with that... Foster parents, parents that adopt, charities, etc. That is the best thing that can happen to those kids.

    As for the schools, gotta cut the waste.

    But we really need to get to the bottom of these problems instead of constantly applying bandages. Why are there 60,000 kids that are failed by their parents? That's a sad situation indeed.
    There charitable, good, loving people are the backbone of the foster care system. Mostly they are very religious, low income people who know what these kids have been through. But when it comes to things like paying for therapy for reactive attachment disorder, medical care for the ones with serious medical needs, school etc. the money just isn't there. It's not some abstract theory, it's happening right now. The money's not there.

    As for what is failing these kids, putting their parents in prison for drug offenses instead of getting them into treatment, and related, pulling the kids from the home because daddy got drunk again and beat the **** out of them. Because that's how his daddy rolled when he was a kid. It goes on and on.

    But I'm getting away from my original point, which was that OWS people have many reasons for protesting, but it all boils down to the common thread that something's not right, their lives are getting worse, not better, and they're not going to take it lying down. I salute them.

    Peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    How about them public employee unions? Do you think they should be politically involved in how we spend taxpayer moneys?
    It's tough to say no, because I generally agree with them and view them as a side vying against the corporations buying influence.

    But, I'd rather see a system where any legit candidate with XXXX signatures of support on a petition is given a set election budget.

    Though, Unions would still have influence, aside from $$, by "promising" votes of their members, but that's actually kind of democratic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    If all that is keeping the wealthy here is the money they are making, then I certainly won't miss them. I'll take their spot and actually pay decent wages with benefits, instead of trying to screw people by only offering them part time work, or laying them off when the management has a brain fart.

    It only takes one time of working for a decent company until you realize how crooked some of the mega-corps are. They abuse every system they can to maximize profits and don't give a rats a$$ about anything else. They take bailouts, post record profits, still screw their own customers, and lay off employees. They destroy the environment, which belongs to everyone, even those not born yet. The products they offer are overly expensive and sub-standard and only exist because they hold a monopoly on the market, or paralyze small competitors through lawsuits (AT&T, Comcast, Big Oil). Since they obviously don't care about me, my children, and the future of our nation, I don't give a rip what happens to them. If they can't stay in business I won't shed a single tear.

    On the flip side, there are many companies that place the quality of their product and treatment of their employees above profit. These companies realize the importance of environmental stewardship. These companies expect employees to work hard, but compensate them fairly, and ensure they stay productive by offering health benefits. Retirement plans, health insurance, and a decent wages do not come cheap, but the type of employee you attract ensures that your company will continue to produce quality products in a sustainable manner.
    Well said and entirely true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    Well said and entirely true.
    Agreed!

  107. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    It's tough to say no, because I generally agree with them and view them as a side vying against the corporations buying influence.
    So political corruption is OK as long as you personally agree?

  108. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    Well said and entirely true.
    Could be true - but what exactly is the proposed change? Have more nice corporations and less bad ones.. Mmm.. okey.

    The truth of the matter is, many countries had tried many different things, and none of them are doing any appreciably better in the long run. Some very few of the small countries do have a higher standard of living - but then they are on the size of a large US county - and you can pick up some damn rich counties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    But I'm getting away from my original point, which was that OWS people have many reasons for protesting, but it all boils down to the common thread that something's not right, their lives are getting worse, not better, and they're not going to take it lying down. I salute them.

    Peace.
    Still haven't heard one concrete change that they want, name one?

    Maybe

    1) Stop corruption of politicians, mega wealthy, corporations? How does one accomplish that?
    2) The goverenment should take care of everyone who doesn't have as much money as they would like. See Italy and Greece for how that will turn out.
    3) College aducation should be free to all. I'd love that, I have 2 kids in college, but someone has to pay, who? Again unsustainable
    4) Tax the wealty more, and do what with that money? It will just add to the huge amount of waste that already exists. If the current tax dollars were used wisely everone could pay less taxes.

    Basically they are asking for a utopian society with no roadmap for how to make that happen. Who wouldn't want that? No details of how to make it actually happen are ever suggested. When they start talking about things that are realistically possible, then people might start taking them seriously.

  110. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    If all that is keeping the wealthy here is the money they are making, then I certainly won't miss them.
    I can't agree with this. They take their money with them. This is the exact reason corps move offshore. They can choose between 35% (less the special tax code written for them, i.e. oil industry) here, or something less elsewhere. So our choice is a small part of something or zero.

    And if you add that the corps and the wealthy are the most mobile people, or tax paying entities, on the planet, then even a temporary disparity will cause some to leave.

    The good news is we can count on a corp, or a wealthy person, to act in their own best interest. All the rest of us have to do is make that fact pay for the collective, and not just the 1%.

    'I like to ride my bicycle, I like to ride my bike'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    So political corruption is OK as long as you personally agree?
    Don't misquote me! I said it's tough to say no, but obviously I am saying no to their financial backing of candidates/positions.

    People should decide. Union members get votes like everyone else. Their votes are what should decide issues, not their dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Still haven't heard one concrete change that they want, name one?
    Instead of looking at what they want, which is amorphous by design, look at what they are accomplishing. They have given the media an angle that runs counter to the corporate, tea party narrative that's dominated our discourse for four years now. By not going away they've inspired countless debates such as this, changed the vocabulary of political talking points away from austerity and toward job creation, and temporarily forced banks to back off their latest fee hikes. Those are just off the top of my head.
    I know that nothing said here is going to change the minds of conservatives or liberals, but effective democracy (sorry Axe I'm going to call it that) depends on all side vigorously advocating for their own interests. If it takes encampments of noisy people to compete with corporate PR dollars, then good for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Still haven't heard one concrete change that they want, name one?

    Maybe

    1) Stop corruption of politicians, mega wealthy, corporations? How does one accomplish that?
    2) The goverenment should take care of everyone who doesn't have as much money as they would like. See Italy and Greece for how that will turn out.
    3) College aducation should be free to all. I'd love that, I have 2 kids in college, but someone has to pay, who? Again unsustainable
    4) Tax the wealty more, and do what with that money? It will just add to the huge amount of waste that already exists. If the current tax dollars were used wisely everone could pay less taxes.

    Basically they are asking for a utopian society with no roadmap for how to make that happen. Who wouldn't want that? No details of how to make it actually happen are ever suggested. When they start talking about things that are realistically possible, then people might start taking them seriously.

  114. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    I can't agree with this. They take their money with them. This is the exact reason corps move offshore. They can choose between 35% (less the special tax code written for them, i.e. oil industry) here, or something less elsewhere. So our choice is a small part of something or zero.
    That's the false dichotomy they are selling, for sure. The truth is most of the biggest are cheating the system with off-shore tax laundering (Google, i.e.) or by buying special exemptions (Oil) by buying candidates, or are funded with Gov't money anyway, and just take and pay tax on more more more ("defense" industry).

    The truth is tax rates for the very wealthy and corporations are VERY LOW right now. We've had higher taxes and simultaneously a better economy at the same time in the past. The relationship that tax rates and unemployment rates are directly correlated is manufactured and false. It's a threat held over our heads by corporations looking to improve their already-copious leverage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    I can't agree with this. They take their money with them. This is the exact reason corps move offshore. They can choose between 35% (less the special tax code written for them, i.e. oil industry) here, or something less elsewhere. So our choice is a small part of something or zero.

    And if you add that the corps and the wealthy are the most mobile people, or tax paying entities, on the planet, then even a temporary disparity will cause some to leave.

    The good news is we can count on a corp, or a wealthy person, to act in their own best interest. All the rest of us have to do is make that fact pay for the collective, and not just the 1%.

    'I like to ride my bicycle, I like to ride my bike'.
    You're creating a false dichotomy there, and it doesn't exist in real life. There are many great companies out there that have a loyalty to our country. Some people believe in something besides pure profit at the cost of all other things. Some companies would rather take a 2% pay cut than lay off 2,000 workers. Some companies don't believe in corrupting the political process and hijacking the government of the people for financial gain.

    And like I said, the companies purely here for the profit can leave and go find a profit somewhere else. I don't think people would miss a rich rapist uncle purely because he brings money to the family. They'd kick him out and say good riddance.
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  116. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Don't misquote me! I said it's tough to say no, but obviously I am saying no to their financial backing of candidates/positions.

    People should decide. Union members get votes like everyone else. Their votes are what should decide issues, not their dollars.
    How it falls in California. This is obviously not the whole story, but it is a somewhat representative picture of the money trail.

    Top Interest Groups for campaign contributions.

    Last two years of available data, Jan. 1, 2009 - Dec. 31, 2010.
    Construction unions $5,438,156
    Attorneys & law firms $4,147,108
    Police & fire fighters unions and associations $2,665,964
    Native American tribes & governing units $2,572,862
    State & local government employee unions $2,494,189
    Property & casualty insurance $1,815,768
    Telecommunications $1,721,519
    Pharmaceutical manufacturing $1,278,381
    Teachers unions $1,200,551
    Physicians $1,131,876

  117. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    There are many great companies out there that have a loyalty to our country.
    If they would remain blindly loyal in the face of the punitive taxation - then their board is violating its fiduciary duty and should be sued by their shareholders.

  118. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    That's the false dichotomy they are selling, for sure.
    Taxable income elasticity is very much real. So is the extreme volatility of heavily progressive tax schemes. Volatility of revenues hits the poor the most.

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    ..... and it doesn't exist in real life. There are many great companies out there that have a loyalty to our country. Some people believe in something besides pure profit at the cost of all other things. Some companies would rather take a 2% pay cut than lay off 2,000 workers. Some companies don't believe in corrupting the political process and hijacking the government of the people for financial gain.

    And like I said, the companies purely here for the profit can leave and go find a profit somewhere else. I don't think people would miss a rich rapist uncle purely because he brings money to the family. They'd kick him out and say good riddance.
    Ridiculous, it exists in real life right now and in volume.

    And the rapist thing is even more absurd.

    That said, of course not all corps are villains, but a publicly held corp has an obligation to maximize profits. They rarely get 'to do the right thing' for it's own sake if that means uncertainty, lower profits, higher costs, or anything that lowers the stock value. Again, this is the good news. We can craft our tax code, et al, to suit the greatest good.

    It seems you want to exchange a paradigm of greed and self interest for another that depends on the generosity of the same, or other, corps.

  120. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcatCC View Post
    Charitable, good, loving people will hopefully help out with that... Foster parents, parents that adopt, charities, etc. That is the best thing that can happen to those kids.
    This is going to sound snarky and I don't mean it that way, but your political views strike me as being in alignment with those folks who currently say things like "Hope is not a plan." Kinda ironic, don't you think. I'm not an expert, but from what I understand, all those groups you mention are already heavily involved. And I would note that in a recession, which many folks feel like we are in, charities tend to struggle.

    As for the schools, gotta cut the waste.
    Every teacher I've ever met has said the same thing. There's a stat in here about the overhead cost of funneling all school funds through Sacramento. I don't know if it is true or not, but sure sounds believable. As a parent, at the local level, I sure don't see much waste. I see hardworking folks in my community doing pretty damn well with limited resources

    But we really need to get to the bottom of these problems instead of constantly applying bandages. Why are there 60,000 kids that are failed by their parents? That's a sad situation indeed.
    I don't think we are applying bandages, and it seems unlikely to me we'll ever not have some kids in need of intervention. Some adults have accidents or bad luck, some make bad choices, and some people fail in spite of their best efforts. We've got something like 40 million people living in California. If even 1/10 of 1% of those are kids in need of help, that would be 400,000 people.

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Stuff like this makes it hard to take you seriously. You are obviously a smart guy, but you are putting words in another's mouth. And you pointedly ignore the rest of the post where the guy expands on and qualifies his position. Frankly, it makes you seem less than honest.
    Ah, the pitfalls of the interwebz communication.

    Yes, I have pointedly ignored the rest of his post. The purpose of it was to make a point. Pun intended.

  122. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    So political corruption is OK as long as you personally agree?
    Stuff like this makes it hard to take you seriously. You are obviously a smart guy, but you are putting words in another's mouth. And you pointedly ignore the rest of the post where the guy expands on and qualifies his position. Frankly, it makes you seem less than honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    Instead of looking at what they want, which is amorphous by design, look at what they are accomplishing. They have given the media an angle that runs counter to the corporate, tea party narrative that's dominated our discourse for four years now. By not going away they've inspired countless debates such as this, .......
    I agree they have definitely inspired people to talk. But unfortunately for the OWS'ers most people are talking about what a bunch of idiots the protesters are. And how they are hurting business for hard working people, and costing cities tons of money in overtime police pay.

    I'm as disgusted by corruption and illegal corporate activites as anyone, but the OWS'ers aren't solving that issue in any way.

    Please, they had nothing to do with the banks cancelling the ATM use fees. It was the pissed off customers with money in their banks, threatening to pull it that made them change their minds.

    Bank president: "Oh no! the dreadlocked neo-hippies are pissed at us, we better cancel those new fees"

    Bank underling: "but sir, they don't have jobs, money or bank accounts"

    Bank president: "Oh yeah, well we certainly don't want them to camp near our banks. let's cancel those fees anyway"

    Yeah.... that's probably what happened.

  124. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Stuff like this makes it hard to take you seriously. You are obviously a smart guy, but you are putting words in another's mouth. And you pointedly ignore the rest of the post where the guy expands on and qualifies his position. Frankly, it makes you seem less than honest.
    And they said civil discourse was impossible on a MTB forum.

    Thanks.

  125. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Taxable income elasticity is very much real. So is the extreme volatility of heavily progressive tax schemes. Volatility of revenues hits the poor the most.
    Explain to me about the times when Tax Rates were higher, and the Economy was better. (lower unemployment, etc...) And how these epochs fit in with what you're saying.

    Let's take the Reagan era to start.
    Clinton surplus years next.

    The United States has advantages to corporations other than it's tax rates.

    If tax rates were the only thing keeping businesses rooted in the US, why do so many corps funnel their revenue through tax shelters like the Cayman Islands and Ireland, instead of just up and relocating their businesses there? A proposed idea with support is to close down these loopholes. If that happens do you think Google will just up and relocate the business to Ireland?

  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Explain to me about the times when Tax Rates were higher, and the Economy was better. (lower unemployment, etc...) And how these epochs fit in with what you're saying.
    There is an assertion in your question that I do not believe to be true in the least.

    It also seems that people do confuse nominal marginal tax rates with actual tax rates. What is factual is that top percentiles of tax payers pay an ever increasing share of all the taxes collected. When marginal tax rates had been lowered, many deductions had been eliminated, AMT introduced, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    If tax rates were the only thing keeping businesses rooted in the US, why do so many corps funnel their revenue through tax shelters like the Cayman Islands and Ireland, instead of just up and relocating their businesses there? A proposed idea with support is to close down these loopholes. If that happens do you think Google will just up and relocate the business to Ireland?
    I am not sure what you are arguing about. Yes, every public company HAS TO use every possible legal mechanism to increase profits. It is their duty to shareholders - pension funds, mutual funds that hold your retirement, individual investors etc.

    Are you arguing that Google should relocate somewhere? Seriously?

  127. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    There is an assertion in your question that I do not believe to be true in the least.

    It also seems that people do confuse nominal marginal tax rates with actual tax rates. What is factual is that top percentiles of tax payers pay an ever increasing share of all the taxes collected. When marginal tax rates had been lowered, many deductions had been eliminated, AMT introduced, etc.
    You seem to be saying that the Bush Tax Cuts weren't really tax cuts at all. OK then, let's just repeal them. What do you say?

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What is factual is that top percentiles of tax payers pay an ever increasing share of all the taxes collected.
    Yes that is correct. Mainly because the top percentiles' income is going up, while at the same time, everyone else is either unemployed, underemployed or making the same amount of money while working harder. I am sick of hearing the same old stupid, lame-ass argument that 99% of us who make under the 1% cutoff point which is $349K/year - are just lazy hippy bums who want to steal other people's money. Naturally, since taxes are a percentage of income, most of the taxes are raised from the group that is doing better financially. This is a sign of a weak middle class, i.e. weak demand-side which will ultimately, in due course, cause the economy to spiral downward and crash and burn.

    I don't blame everyone in the 1% for this phenomena - we're dealing with many complex issues including globalization and the loss of manufacturing, the housing bust and the loss of construction jobs (which was mainly due to risky, shady dealings on behalf of the financial sector). Health care being so expensive it is bankrupting people in catastrophic situations... Bad war decisions by prior administrations... We need strong corporations and to encourage investment here for sure. But we also need to tax people fairly, rather than placing undue burden (as a percentage of their income) on people who are already getting squeezed at every angle (college, medical bills, rising food and gas prices, etc.). If someone making over $349/year gets taxed a couple percentage points more, they will still be able to eat the next day, and they still will not have to go work another couple jobs to make ends meet. They can still drive an 80K car, and afford their mortgage.

    IOW let's hear it for the top percentiles:
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  129. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    You seem to be saying that the Bush Tax Cuts weren't really tax cuts at all. OK then, let's just repeal them. What do you say?
    I am amused where did you find me saying that.

    And why do you single out Bush's cuts? What about Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 signed by Bill Clinton and lowering capital gain taxes (probably a bigger issue to rich households then income tax rate) by 8% (more then Bush's cut did)?

    And why do you want to repeal them? What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Spend half a trillion on government jobs?

    I say we should eliminate personal income tax completely, and switch to VAT and capital gains.

    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    If someone making over $349/year gets taxed a couple percentage points more
    Couple percentage points on the top 1% more would not even make a dent in the real problems that we are facing. Just run the numbers.

    Is is just about the symbolism of a tax hike? What exactly is the goal? Fund Social Security and Medicare? Dig a half trillion dollar hole in the ground so some folks can have a government job for a while?

    ...I think this thread has run its course. Unsubscribing.

  130. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    ...I think this thread has run its course. Unsubscribing.
    But wait! I heard there is cake afterwards!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  131. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    If they would remain blindly loyal in the face of the punitive taxation - then their board is violating its fiduciary duty and should be sued by their shareholders.
    Punitive:
    1. Inflicting or intended as punishment.
    2. (of a tax or other charge) Extremely high.

    I'm going to assume you mean the latter and I would argue that the current tax rate is ridiculously low. Corporate, personal income and capital gains taxes are at their lowest rate since the late 1930's. The effective rate is even lower since there are loopholes to be exploited (if you have enough money to hire an army of lawyers and tax accountants). In addition to that fact, the taxes in the US are lower than in almost every other democratic nation. Even a tax hike of 10% still would only bring us up to tax rates in the 1960s.

    And your second point is ridiculous, as it means the shareholders would sue the company for doing what is legally required of them.
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    People should read this article on the second largest economy in the world and what makes it so prosperous. Occupiers are unwittingly going to make the problem worse by trying to involve the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Yes that is correct. Mainly because the top percentiles' income is going up, while at the same time, everyone else is either unemployed, underemployed or making the same amount of money while working harder. I am sick of hearing the same old stupid, lame-ass argument that 99% of us who make under the 1% cutoff point which is $349K/year - are just lazy hippy bums who want to steal other people's money. Naturally, since taxes are a percentage of income, most of the taxes are raised from the group that is doing better financially. This is a sign of a weak middle class, i.e. weak demand-side which will ultimately, in due course, cause the economy to spiral downward and crash and burn.
    ...
    How dare you bring reason and facts to an internet discussion!

    Great post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    How dare you bring reason and facts to an internet discussion!

    Great post!
    well, if by facts you mean inaccuracies. The fact is, the wealthy pay most of the taxes for the entire country and has very little to do with a slight rise in income disparity. And with all the disgusting waste and stupidity in the system they want to ask for more.

    Go ahead and drive out all the big players and see what happens. The poor will get even poorer.

  135. #335
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    My ol' Man once told me that people don't get rich without hurting alot of others along the way.

  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcatCC View Post
    well, if by facts you mean inaccuracies. The fact is, the wealthy pay most of the taxes for the entire country and has very little to do with a slight rise in income disparity. And with all the disgusting waste and stupidity in the system they want to ask for more.

    Go ahead and drive out all the big players and see what happens. The poor will get even poorer.

    It strikes me that shredchic cited statistics that address and refute the very claim you are making, and all you've come back with is "that's inaccurate". Wow, I'm so persuaded.

    "Drive out the big players?" They are going to move where? Canada? England? Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    It strikes me that shredchic cited statistics that address and refute the very claim you are making, and all you've come back with is "that's inaccurate". Wow, I'm so persuaded.

    "Drive out the big players?" They are going to move where? Canada? England? Italy?
    I think you need to go back and re-read. Statistics? That was a heaping mound of highly inaccurate whine.

    Just had a friend take his billion dollar company from CA to Washington state for tax reasons alone. SIngapore may be the next move. Very business friendly there and if you want to talk stats, take a look at what's happening in Singapore.

  138. #338
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    Wasn't Bill O'Reilly going to leave america if Obamacare passed? It will be interesting to see how many actually go Gault when the Bush Tax Cuts are allowed to expire.

  139. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    Wasn't Bill O'Reilly going to leave america if Obamacare passed? It will be interesting to see how many actually go Gault when the Bush Tax Cuts are allowed to expire.
    Yeah, just like Limbaugh said he would leave if Obama was elected. Both disappointments.
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  140. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcatCC View Post
    I think you need to go back and re-read. Statistics? That was a heaping mound of highly inaccurate whine.

    Just had a friend take his billion dollar company from CA to Washington state for tax reasons alone. SIngapore may be the next move. Very business friendly there and if you want to talk stats, take a look at what's happening in Singapore.
    Your statistics are hilarious.
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  141. #341
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    here it is...
    We all... Dem/Reps what the original US system layed out. It has been bastardized and loop-holed so much that we are seeing the situation now. - If crap doesnt REALLY change - there WILL be porblems.
    The current Two-party system fights amongst itself and divides the population - while the population is arguing, BS goes under the radar. That is by design.

    If you are frusterated, check out Ron Paul. - Take any 'Libertarian quiz' online and you realize we are all for the same stuff (majority)
    Watch this vid and stick w/ it (30 mins out of you life) - He's a very smart man w/ good ideas.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  142. #342
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    I like a number of Ron Paul's ideas, some I don't like. What I do like most about him though is that I actually believe him. He doesn't say one thing one day and another the next depending on the audience.
    He's true to his word which could prove interesting if he were elected.
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  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    here it is...
    We all... Dem/Reps what the original US system layed out. It has been bastardized and loop-holed so much that we are seeing the situation now. - If crap doesnt REALLY change - there WILL be porblems.
    The current Two-party system fights amongst itself and divides the population - while the population is arguing, BS goes under the radar. That is by design.

    If you are frusterated, check out Ron Paul. - Take any 'Libertarian quiz' online and you realize we are all for the same stuff (majority)
    Watch this vid and stick w/ it (30 mins out of you life) - He's a very smart man w/ good ideas.
    X-2.

  144. #344
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    here is another victory to OWS and ilk about the trans-can pipe...
    Naomi Klein on Environmental Victory: Obama Delays Keystone XL Oil Pipeline Decision Until 2013
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  145. #345
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    Well said.. fight the power..
    "I've never used my face as a brake pad but I have crashed and used my ass as a break pad. I got Hayesed by my Hayes rotor." .
    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Don't mean to pick on anyone in particular, but I don't think you guys are getting it - at all... The 99% is not a figure from an opinion poll. There is a 99% chance that you ARE in the 99%. This is the economic bottom 50% of all wage earners in the country. 1% controls 50% of the wealth, and an equally disproportionate amount of political power. The 1% are not wage-slaves in Silicon Valley earning low 6 figure salaries, nor is it hard-working small business owners. You people are the 99%.

    Some people say "everything is all f'ed up because it's the government's fault". Well, who do think controls the government, homies???! Government works fantastically well for the top 1% of income earners and corporate interests. Fossil fuels lobby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Who do you think Congress is meeting with all day, every day? What do you think Bush's prescription drug benefit (without negotiating any bulk pricing...) was all about? What do you think Citizens v. United was all about? Why do you think GE owns 80% of NBC? Why do you think the oil and gas industry receives as a whole up to $113 billion per year in direct federal subsidies? What do you think the $70 billion dollar bailout from the Bush Administration + the other $70 Billion bailout from the Obama administration was all about? Look at who actually runs every cabinet post in the Bush and Obama administrations.... We have a former Monsanto executive running the USDA right now. We have the foxes guarding over the hen house. Look at who writes government policy, actually writing out provisions in bills, line for line - one amusing example: Lobbying Spending Database-Exxon Mobil, 2011 | OpenSecrets

    Well, DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 1% is raping America, and all the right-leaning sheeple do is bend over and congratulate them for all their "hard work". What a bunch of horse ****. Are people really that daft?!

  146. #346
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    Honestly... ahh I give up

  147. #347
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    Police ramping up right now
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  148. #348
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    Another inside' live view (visual seems to be overloaded server-side)
    this is real-time decision making for a large mass -
    very cool
    PDX_nathanH on USTREAM: .
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  149. #349
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    Looks like 99% of Stanford is with the 1%, LOL

  150. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Looks like 99% of Stanford is with the 1%, LOL
    Are you REALLY 'laughing out loud' ?
    If so, why?
    If not, fcuk that JR. High acronym.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  151. #351
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    Let's just say there's a worn spot in my carpet from all the rolling around.

  152. #352
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    I think that good old Soviets got it right - put everyone in GULAG, give everyone a cup of soup and a piece of bread per day and make everyone work 20hrs per day for this food. Everyone would feel equal and liberated creating common good.

  153. #353
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    4am. Occupy the shower .
    4:30 am. Occupy the kitchen for a cup of coffee and a little conversation with my wife.
    5am. Occupy my truck for the 1.5 hr commute to work.
    630 am. Occupy my office to prep for the days activities with my employees.
    7am. Occupy an excavator.
    12 pm. Occupy my road bike for my sanity.
    1 pm. Occupy my excavator/ eat lunch. (multiple task due to indulging in road ride)
    5 pm. Occupy my office to process time cards, payroll for my employees.
    6:30 pm. Occupy my truck for 1.5 hr commute home.
    8 pm. Occupy my kitchen for the all to brief time spent with my wife and kids while eating dinner way to late, again.
    9pm. Occupy my computer to return emails and surf mtbr.
    10 pm. Occupy my bed. Can't sleep. Worrying about business and the futture of my company.Sleep sometime around midnight.
    Next day, 4am. See above...
    As you can see I have won life's lottery. Some years I have had the good fortune to be in the 1 percent. Some others, not so fortunate . It's called risk and hard work.
    This I know 100 percent. The harder I work, the more fortunate I get.

    I would be ok paying higher taxes if the azzhats in government wouldn't piss it away.
    My 2 cents...........
    Last edited by Romad; 11-18-2011 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Didn't want to sound like a dick

  154. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romad View Post
    4am. Occupy the shower .
    4:30 am. Occupy the kitchen for a cup of coffee and a little conversation with my wife.
    5am. Occupy my truck for the 1.5 hr commute to work.
    630 am. Occupy my office to prep for the days activities with my employees.
    7am. Occupy an excavator.
    12 pm. Occupy my road bike for my sanity.
    1 pm. Occupy my excavator/ eat lunch. (multiple task due to indulging in road ride)
    5 pm. Occupy my office to process time cards, payroll for my employees.
    6:30 pm. Occupy my truck for 1.5 hr commute home.
    8 pm. Occupy my kitchen for the all to brief time spent with my wife and kids while eating dinner way to late, again.
    9pm. Occupy my computer to return emails and surf mtbr.
    10 pm. Occupy my bed. Can't sleep. Worrying about business and the futture of my company.Sleep sometime around midnight.
    Next day, 4am. See above...
    As you can see I have won life's lottery. Some years I have had the good fortune to be in the 1 percent. Some others, not so fortunate . It's called risk and hard work.
    This I know 100 percent. The harder I work, the more fortunate I get.

    I would be ok paying higher taxes if the azzhats in government wouldn't piss it away.
    My 2 cents...........
    I guess you don't 'get' it...
    While I applaude your work ethic - many of the "99-percenters" do the same thing - or would if they could .
    The 'Harder you work' is paying off less and less. Many are working HARD @ 12-16 hrs a day and barely keeping their chin up above water.
    You were never in the 1% ... I dunno why you'd even want to associate with this crowd.

    Yeah, you think you've 'won the lottery', but as the way things stand, your payouts are about to stop.

    I've always thought about this since I was a kid in elementary school...and how great nations fell - ones much older in time-span than our's [USA], - It's only a matter of time.

    Can we fix it? I think so - but protests are only the start... will it take a full-on civil-war? I hope not.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    I guess you don't 'get' it...

    You were never in the 1% ... I dunno why you'd even want to associate with this crowd.
    Better to associated with the 1% than the people trading dirty needles and lice in the Occupy crowd.

    Those guys were in Auburn last week. Looked like a couple of bum kids, a couple more that wouldn't be bums except they thought an english lit major was a good idea, and a handful of retread hippies.

    It was pretty clear that there was NOT a bunch of Bosses watching the front door waiting for their hardworking super productive employees to show up.

    I'm also not expecting a big dip in the GDP from all the OWS'ers being on strike. On the other hand I'm quite confident that guy's like Romand "shrugging" and not taking entrepreneurial risks IS effecting the economy.

  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    I guess you don't 'get' it...
    While I applaude your work ethic - many of the "99-percenters" do the same thing - or would if they could .
    The 'Harder you work' is paying off less and less. Many are working HARD @ 12-16 hrs a day and barely keeping their chin up above water.
    You were never in the 1% ... I dunno why you'd even want to associate with this crowd.

    Yeah, you think you've 'won the lottery', but as the way things stand, your payouts are about to stop.

    I've always thought about this since I was a kid in elementary school...and how great nations fell - ones much older in time-span than our's [USA], - It's only a matter of time.

    Can we fix it? I think so - but protests are only the start... will it take a full-on civil-war? I hope not.
    I don't get it? Really? Really? I was being sarcastic with the life's lottery comment. Yea, working 14 to 16 hrs a day to run a business that provides an income to a lot of families is a walk in the f!!!Ing park. From what I have seen very few of the OWS crowd are are working two jobs to make ends meet. If as you say the payouts (I call them EARNINGS) stop I will take what I have and sit on the sidelines until there are earnings to be made. It's called BUSINESS! When that happens, (and it will) I will hire more people and work harder to make up for lost time.
    Are there real problems facing this country? Yes. Is government the answer ? IMHO, No. Blaming capitalism as a blanket statement is off base. Corporate America and government being in bed together is an unholy alliance. To an extent it could be said that Wall Street is morally bankrupt. The same certainly could be said of government.
    I guess if all else fails I will join the dark side and get a job as an inspector. For the government. I hear the pensions and benefits are spectacular.

  157. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romad View Post
    ...To an extent it could be said that Wall Street is morally bankrupt. The same certainly could be said of government.
    yes

    -Sorry I missed your sarcasm - usually I'm pretty good at picking that up
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  158. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Better to associated with the 1% than the people trading dirty needles and lice in the Occupy crowd.

    Those guys were in Auburn last week. Looked like a couple of bum kids, a couple more that wouldn't be bums except they thought an english lit major was a good idea, and a handful of retread hippies.

    It was pretty clear that there was NOT a bunch of Bosses watching the front door waiting for their hardworking super productive employees to show up.

    I'm also not expecting a big dip in the GDP from all the OWS'ers being on strike. On the other hand I'm quite confident that guy's like Romand "shrugging" and not taking entrepreneurial risks IS effecting the economy.
    It's clear where your mind is @
    These flea-ridden-hippies are the one one who do battle against the fukked up system while others that can go to work - do.

    I hope it does not come down to where I lose my job and have to dig the same trenches - but if I do, I WILL be right there.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  159. #359
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Romad View Post
    I don't get it? Really? Really? I was being sarcastic with the life's lottery comment. Yea, working 14 to 16 hrs a day to run a business that provides an income to a lot of families is a walk in the f!!!Ing park. From what I have seen very few of the OWS crowd are are working two jobs to make ends meet. If as you say the payouts (I call them EARNINGS) stop I will take what I have and sit on the sidelines until there are earnings to be made. It's called BUSINESS! When that happens, (and it will) I will hire more people and work harder to make up for lost time.
    Are there real problems facing this country? Yes. Is government the answer ? IMHO, No. Blaming capitalism as a blanket statement is off base. Corporate America and government being in bed together is an unholy alliance. To an extent it could be said that Wall Street is morally bankrupt. The same certainly could be said of government.
    I guess if all else fails I will join the dark side and get a job as an inspector. For the government. I hear the pensions and benefits are spectacular.

  160. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    I guess you don't 'get' it...
    While I applaude your work ethic - many of the "99-percenters" do the same thing - or would if they could .
    The 'Harder you work' is paying off less and less. Many are working HARD @ 12-16 hrs a day and barely keeping their chin up above water.
    You were never in the 1% ... I dunno why you'd even want to associate with this crowd.

    Yeah, you think you've 'won the lottery', but as the way things stand, your payouts are about to stop.

    I've always thought about this since I was a kid in elementary school...and how great nations fell - ones much older in time-span than our's [USA], - It's only a matter of time.

    Can we fix it? I think so - but protests are only the start... will it take a full-on civil-war? I hope not.

    Do you know you sound like a whiney little jealous beotch? LOL! Life isn't going that great for you so your solution - just take everyone elses stuff. Pathetic really.

    Why don't you try this for a change? Work hard everyday, be happy for what ya got and SHUT THE FUK UP *****!
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  161. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romad View Post
    Are there real problems facing this country? Yes. Is government the answer ? IMHO, No. Blaming capitalism as a blanket statement is off base. Corporate America and government being in bed together is an unholy alliance. To an extent it could be said that Wall Street is morally bankrupt. The same certainly could be said of government.
    This x1000. This is the message that all of us need to realize. Sure the OWS people are mainly pissed about Wall Street and corporate america. The Tea Party libertarian folks are pissed about big goverment. People need to start realizing that we are on the same side, and continuing to see "the other side" as lazy dirty hippies (OWS) or stupid bigots (TP) will get us no where. They WANT us to keep fighting the other. As long as we keep doing that we won't fight them.

    And the lazy dirty hippie thing - really? People need to quit watching Fox/CNN/MSNBC and get informed. Go to youtube and watch videos from the protests. Go to ustream and check out some of the live feeds. These are people. Everyday American people. They are retired police officers, veterans, and grandmothers.

  162. #362
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    Okay, I typed the comment above 17 minutes ago, and just came across this:
    Lobbying firm's memo spells out plan to undermine Occupy Wall Street

    There you go. Pretty much illustrates what I said, and they know it. We're all in this together, and when we finally realize that, they are screwed.

  163. #363
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    Quit worrying about others and go to work. If you don't have a job, get one. Then go listen to some David Allen Coe!

  164. #364
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    Question: what would happen to you if you went up and pepper-sprayed some people that were just 'in your way' - get arrested and charged with assault? yep! - But not for these *******s.

    Honestly... ahh I give up

  165. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71 View Post
    Do you know you sound like a whiney little jealous beotch? LOL! Life isn't going that great for you so your solution - just take everyone elses stuff. Pathetic really.

    Why don't you try this for a change? Work hard everyday, be happy for what ya got and SHUT THE FUK UP *****!
    ???
    wow
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  166. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    It's a fascinating how we are so easily able to dehumanize other people that we are in conflict with. "Dirty ****ing hippies! They're lice infested junkies (they can't even clean their needles!), they're having sex right out in the open! They're urinating on children! They **** on the ground!" Sounds a lot like Raider ****ing nation over at the Coliseum parking lot every couple of weeks in the winter.

    Happens in war, happens in politics, happening with OWS.
    So you figure all those right wingers over on MSNBC are making that stuff up?

    More likely they're covering up the worst of it.

  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Better to associated with the 1% than the people trading dirty needles and lice in the Occupy crowd.
    It's a fascinating how we are so easily able to dehumanize other people that we are in conflict with. "Dirty ****ing hippies! They're lice infested junkies (they can't even clean their needles!), they're having sex right out in the open! They're urinating on children! They **** on the ground!" Sounds a lot like Raider ****ing nation over at the Coliseum parking lot every couple of weeks in the winter.

    Happens in war, happens in politics, happening with OWS.

  168. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    So you figure all those right wingers over on MSNBC are making that stuff up?

    More likely they're covering up the worst of it.
    I don't doubt that some of these things have happened. There are groups of homeless people who've joined the fray, who were "camping" in the downtown areas before OWS and will still be there after it's gone. But to dismiss the entire thing out of hand because of a subset of people who are attracted to the event for more practical reasons than the actual politics of the movement is just a mental gymnastic that allows you not to have to thing too hard about what's going on. I personally know several people who've been part of this, and they are teachers, social workers, and graphic designers. They wouldn't be down there if it's only as you describe.

    By the way, in the Randian utopia that some members of this discussion seem to desire, where there are winners and losers and the winners laugh from their penthouses, and the rest can eat cake, there's going to be even more of these lice-infested losers sleeping on the street and shitting in your doorway. Because they're the losers.

  169. #369
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    insults here need to stop please....
    Click Here for Forum Rules

  170. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post

    Happens in war, happens in politics, happening with OWS.
    Didn't happen in the t-party protests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Didn't happen in the t-party protests.
    What didn't?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  172. #372
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    Dorli Rainey is AWESOME!

    Honestly... ahh I give up

  173. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Didn't happen in the t-party protests.
    You know, you have a point. Dehumanizing opponents seems to be mostly a right wing thing.

  174. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    You know, you have a point. Dehumanizing opponents seems to be mostly a right wing thing.
    Yeah, I never got that...
    FWIW, I'm from the 'middle' or independant, Libertarian POV ... But the 'right' seems to naysay anything contradictory, while the 'left' media seems to actually be more 'fair and balanced'

    *Note - I realize that these major media outlets are only doing one thing - to make $$ - but it's just rediculous...nay, laughable, what 'theories' or 'conspiracies' the right-media comes up with.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  175. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    What didn't?
    "Dirty ****ing hippies! They're lice infested junkies (they can't even clean their needles!), they're having sex right out in the open! They're urinating on children! They **** on the ground!" Sounds a lot like Raider ****ing nation over at the Coliseum parking lot every couple of weeks in the winter.
    Per a previous poster.

    I'm not trying to "dehumanize" the OWSers. They do that fine all by themselves. No need for me, the media, or anyone else to exert the effort.

  176. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    You know, you have a point. Dehumanizing opponents seems to be mostly a right wing thing.
    Hmm, every major news outlet reported *unverifiable* claims of racism in the tea party and called their views extreme.

    Now you have OWS, who is overtly socialist and I have seen any major media outlet calling them extreme.

    OWS is completely out of control.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  177. #377
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    We can blah blah about whether the ows are scum, or banks suck, or police suck, or government suck. But the facts are that ows is a pathetic movement that has achieved nothing except:

    Some businesses unrelated to wall street were disrupted.
    Some people received a beatdown.
    Some cops may or may not get in trouble.
    Hundreds of people got arrested, ruining their chances for high-level future employment.

    At least the tea party got candidates elected to office. Now that's change you can believe in.

  178. #378
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    Equality of opportunity regardless of status and accountability through all government, financial and corporate entities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Hmm, every major news outlet reported *unverifiable* claims of racism in the tea party and called their views extreme.

    Now you have OWS, who is overtly socialist and I have seen any major media outlet calling them extreme.

    OWS is completely out of control.
    Unverifiable? Do I really have to link to the photos?

  180. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Fergusen View Post
    Unverifiable? Do I really have to link to the photos?
    Do I have to link to the $10,000 unclaimed bounty for video of Tea Partiers shouting racist remarks as congresspersons at an event where all the major new outlets insisted such remarks were made?

  181. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Do I have to link to the $10,000 unclaimed bounty for video of Tea Partiers shouting racist remarks as congresspersons at an event where all the major new outlets insisted such remarks were made?
    I'm intrigued, be great if you did.
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  182. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Do I have to link to the $10,000 unclaimed bounty for video of Tea Partiers shouting racist remarks as congresspersons at an event where all the major new outlets insisted such remarks were made?
    Exactly. There is a reward of $10,000 for anyone who can produce the supposed person who made the supposed racist remarks reported by our idiotic media.

    OTOH, racists are very easy to find at OWS. In fact, I think OWS is proud to be racist - otherwise they wouldnt state their names and place of employment so freely.

    Anti-Semitic Protester at Occupy Wall Street - LA - YouTube

    Patricia McAllister: 'Fired for an Anti-Zionist Comment!' [myFOXLA.com] - YouTube

    "If you're a white man, then shut the fk up about race!" @ Occupy Wall St. - YouTube

    Interview with anti-Jewish protester pt 1 - YouTube

    So on one hand you have a $10,000 outstanding reward for claims the main stream media touted, and on the other you have numerous examples of overt racism at OWS and the media doesnt report it.

    Things that make you go "hmm"
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  183. #383
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    I'm not taking sides on this topic because I believe that Government is just as corrupt if not more than wall street. I would say 99% of politicians are in the 1% people hate so much. Maybe this movement needs to find itself in DC as well.

    One last thing, people really need to look up and understand what civil disobedience means. I say this because I hate seeing Ghandi comparisons; when people know nothing about him or the history of his cause.
    Get out there and ride!

  184. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Hmm, every major news outlet reported *unverifiable* claims of racism in the tea party and called their views extreme.
    I really did not want to jump in again to this thread but....I unfortunately happened to be in DC the day Senate voted for the health care reform, which coincided one of the biggest teabagger protest to date (I was there for the National Marathon), I can tell you first hand I did see the biggest congregation of proud racist ever. I saw the "n" word on countless signs, derogatory signs about Jews I was called a "Niggger lover" countless times while protesting their racism with my brother in law and I was followed by a hillbilly with a sign that said "Obama's white prinseses(yes spelled like that) hate themselves love's niggger"
    I saw "don't tread on me" signs being carried by people carrying nooses in the other hand.
    so I love u IHB but I can verify it first hand. No pics sorry. You don't have to believe me; I don't care because I think your a great mountain biker.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    OWS is completely out of control.
    GOOD
    Last edited by snowjnky; 11-20-2011 at 09:00 PM.
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  185. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    insults here need to stop please....
    I will save it for the rep
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  186. #386
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    Name:  park rules.jpg
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    I think she is referring to the Gap
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  187. #387
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    [QUOTE=snowjnky;8647585.
    so F U IHB. I can verify it first hand. No pics sorry. You don't have to believe me; I don't care because I think your a......


    :[/QUOTE] That's awesome. I appreciate your passion.

    I have to wonder with the many, many personal attacks in this thread, if all these people will get warnings?

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  188. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky View Post
    Name:  park rules.jpg
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    I think she is referring to the Gap
    You can blame Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and all the other liberals.


    GWB tried to increase regulations in 2001, 2003, 2005 and 2007. Stimied every time by the libs.
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  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    ...
    I have to wonder with the many, many personal attacks in this thread, if all these people will get warnings?

    Nick? Chum?
    if you have a problem with a specific post report it - there is absolutely no way I can monitor every post in real time...

    and you don't need to worry if someone receives a warning, time out, or an outright ban - we have that covered.

    * smooches *
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  190. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Do I have to link to the $10,000 unclaimed bounty for video of Tea Partiers shouting racist remarks as congresspersons at an event where all the major new outlets insisted such remarks were made?
    First I've heard of such an offer. Sounds like a publicity stunt (not that I'm cynical or anything.) I bet it has more strings and qualifications attached to it than a "free" cruise trip.

  191. #391
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    People talking, sharing ideas with each other and general communication between neighbors and citizens is a powerful and sacred right of ours in America. If you dont like it you can move to Russia!

    See the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights...

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Do you think a Corporation is a person? Do they deserve all the rights of a human being? Do humans deserve the rights of a corporation? There are many examples of hypocrisy in the balances of power so why shouldn't these frauds be exposed and tried in a court of law? Or does this deny to any person, within its jurisdiction, the equal protection of the laws?

    Does money equal innocence now?
    Are all poor people criminals?

    Is Slavery ok now that the corporations outsource it to another land?

    Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

    1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    Jurisdiction : the limits or territory within which authority may be exercised, WTF? With all these wars. interventions, occupations, military bases and encampments everywhere seems to me we promote slavery. File:US military bases in the world.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Democracy is a revolutionary concept. We need to clean house in America and it's not being done by these SELLOUT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS. White coller crime costs the US over $500 Billion every year. Thats way more than all other larcenies combined.

  192. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I really don't care to partake of personal attacks with you. I like you too much for that. We can chat on our next group ride, k?
    No no no group bikes rides are for fun. We can hug it out then.

    It's more directed at the REAL teabagggin cowards not the ones who can keep racist views out of their arguments, such as yourself. It just seems funny that someone who makes valid points and does well with your argumentation skills would defend or imply that the teaparty, as a whole, does not have racist undertones, if not more.
    Sorry for the f u. It was more directed to your statement. It should have been f that.
    As for someone who saw the racism first hand, by a large group not individuals, I take offense to hearing people defend the tea party against claims of racism.
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  193. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky View Post
    No It just seems funny that someone who makes valid points and does well with your argumentation skills would defend or imply that the teaparty, as a whole, does not have racist undertones, if not more.
    ......
    As for someone who saw the racism first hand, by a large group not individuals, I take offense to hearing people defend the tea party against claims of racism.
    Obviously I haven't seen what you have seen - so I cant speak to it.

    To be honest, I am suspect - based on my own experiences. I will say that if I was ever with a group of conservatives and one or many of them broke out with some racist shti, I would do my best to stop it, and if I couldn't I would leave.

    But I dont do politcal rallies.

    Now - the thing with the Tea Party and racism is this. There was a widely reported article in which democratic house members claimed to have been accosted by racist and homophobic members of a tea party rally.

    These comments are as of yet unsupported and right wing blogger Andrew Breightbart has put up $10,000 for anyone who can produce the tea partiers in question.

    Tea Party Protests: 'Ni**er,' 'Fa**ot' Shouted At Members Of Congress

    Furthermore - since you have so passionately argued your case, I did go and do some google searches trying to find examples of tea party racism. I didnt really find any.

    I found tea partiers likening Barack Obama to Hitler. But this isnt racist - and it was done to GWB without any protest from the ACLU.

    I found tea partiers calling Obama a Kenyan. He is in fact a Kenyan. So no racism.

    I found tea partiers suggesting Obama was weak when he bowed to the leaders of Saudi Arabia. He did in fact do this.

    But I did not find any racism.

    So on the one hand we have your personal experience - which if it did happen would have made me personally very pissed - because I am not represented by this - and it weakens the arguments I make and its hatefull. But - its also not verifieable.

    On the other hand we have this.

    Occupy Wall Steet - Anti-Semitism , Communism, and Socialism - YouTube

    Anti-Semitic Protester at Occupy Wall Street - LA - YouTube

    Interview with anti-Jewish protester pt 2 - YouTube

    Will Media Report Racism and Anti-Semitism at Occupy Wall Street Protests New - YouTube
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  194. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Obviously I haven't seen what you have seen - so I cant speak to it.

    To be honest, I am suspect - based on my own experiences. I will say that if I was ever with a group of conservatives and one or many of them broke out with some racist shti, I would do my best to stop it, and if I couldn't I would leave.

    But I dont do politcal rallies.

    Now - the thing with the Tea Party and racism is this. There was a widely reported article in which democratic house members claimed to have been accosted by racist and homophobic members of a tea party rally.

    These comments are as of yet unsupported and right wing blogger Andrew Breightbart has put up $10,000 for anyone who can produce the tea partiers in question.

    Tea Party Protests: 'Ni**er,' 'Fa**ot' Shouted At Members Of Congress

    Furthermore - since you have so passionately argued your case, I did go and do some google searches trying to find examples of tea party racism. I didnt really find any.

    I found tea partiers likening Barack Obama to Hitler. But this isnt racist - and it was done to GWB without any protest from the ACLU.

    I found tea partiers calling Obama a Kenyan. He is in fact a Kenyan. So no racism.

    I found tea partiers suggesting Obama was weak when he bowed to the leaders of Saudi Arabia. He did in fact do this.

    But I did not find any racism.

    So on the one hand we have your personal experience - which if it did happen would have made me personally very pissed - because I am not represented by this - and it weakens the arguments I make and its hatefull. But - its also not verifieable.

    On the other hand we have this.

    Occupy Wall Steet - Anti-Semitism , Communism, and Socialism - YouTube

    Anti-Semitic Protester at Occupy Wall Street - LA - YouTube

    Interview with anti-Jewish protester pt 2 - YouTube

    Will Media Report Racism and Anti-Semitism at Occupy Wall Street Protests New - YouTube
    Ok.I understand that the occupy movement has antiSemitic undertones in some instances that does not take away the racism that comes from the Tea party movement. I think both movements would be happy to rid the racism from their protest, rallies and their movement all together. But I think that many people who are drawn to the TP movement happen to already be racist; whereas they might agree with the conservative and libertarian views of the TP they bring their racism with them.
    The one thing both of these extreme protesters have in common, TP and OWS, is that the both agree that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
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  195. #395
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    Every movement has a fringe element to it but it is funny how some of you demonize the tea party with very little or no proof and there is tons of proof that the ows is guilty of the very thing that you are demonizing the tea party for.

    Ows is protesting the effect and not the cause. They don't understand that govt is the problem not the wealthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    Every movement has a fringe element to it but it is funny how some of you demonize the tea party with very little or no proof and there is tons of proof that the ows is guilty of the very thing that you are demonizing the tea party for.

    Ows is protesting the effect and not the cause. They don't understand that govt is the problem not the wealthy.
    I wonder when people are going to start getting pissed at all our politicians for rampant insider trading?

    This is horrific, in my opinion. Not only are they making tons of money on inside information - but its not illegal. We need to hold them to account. I sure hope this comes to the fore and becomes an issue this election cycle.

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  197. #397
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    That's the problem with the OWS'ers. They're fundamentally misguided about where the problem is.

    Some CEO making a million times what their secretary makes should be irrelevant to you. The economy is not a zero sum game. Him earning that does not mean she is precluded from getting ahead. Provided the CEO is operating within the bounds of the law (not some leftists private idea of what a rich guy's moral code should be), then he has done the work and earned his money. If you dont like the law, elect some wise people with integrity and change the law.

    Why are people PO'd at Wall Street for the housing bubble, when the bubble was all but mandated by Congress, and the key players either take huge donations from wall street, or move back and forth between wall street and government, or both?

    Why are people pissed about Buffet making a fortune when the friends of Barack that run GE, Solyndra, etc barely get a mention?

    Why are people all for these stupid public works stimulus projects that keep some guy leaning on a shovel for a week, then stop, when if that same money had been invested in a business it could be producing jobs and returns for decades. Nobody ever mentions that. You tax the public $100,000 to hire a burecrat at some government office and next you you have to find another $100k to keep that person at their "job". But if you had left that $100k in the economy somebody would have invested it somewhere (car loan, house loan, capital for a business, stock market) and a year later that money would still be out there in the economy doing something.

    If you want to attack the problem its in Washington. Steve Jobs did not put a gun to your head and make you buy an iPhone. The government DOES regularly use the threat of lethal force to gain compliance.

  198. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post
    Every movement has a fringe element to it but it is funny how some of you demonize the tea party with very little or no proof and there is tons of proof that the ows is guilty of the very thing that you are demonizing the tea party for.

    Ows is protesting the effect and not the cause. They don't understand that govt is the problem not the wealthy.

    I think you are half right. I think there are the same kinds of bad behavior and fringe elements on both sides in this debate, but also people with serious concerns and valid info. Neither liberals nor conservatives have a monopoly on good ideas.

    Where I think you are wrong is in saying government is the problem. And in saying that, I'm not saying it is the solution. But it has a role in our society, and to simply dismiss it - well, I don't want to go there in this post, or make assumptions about why you would say that.

    I don't think being wealthy is wrong either. Most of us aspire to some economic success, some security, and a good life, however we define that. But if they exert undue influence on the gov't, that certainly suggests there might be a problem. I'd kind of like to think all our votes count the same.

  199. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    I think you are half right. I think there are the same kinds of bad behavior and fringe elements on both sides in this debate, but .
    nothing's been proven about the tea partiers, while (some of) the OWS'ers are overtly racist, violent, law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Where I think you are wrong is in saying government is the problem. And in saying that, I'm not saying it is the solution. But it has a role in our society, and to simply dismiss it - well, I don't want to go there in this post, or make assumptions about why you would say that..
    Government created the housing bubble and the housing crisis and they continue to do so by increasing the limits of FHA loans to over $700,000.

    No one is arguing that we shouldnt have a government - we are aruging that government created our current economic problems.
    Last edited by iheartbicycles; 11-21-2011 at 03:55 PM.
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  200. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    nothing's been proven about the tea partiers, while the OWS'ers are overtly racist, violent, law breakers.
    I give up. Whatever. You win. See ya on the trails.

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