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  1. #1
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    OT: College Admissions Craziness

    My son will begin looking at colleges next year. Like most Palo Alto/NorCal kids who are academically inclined, he's looking at some pretty stiff competition at the top colleges. This college admissions rat race is really distressing for many people. I try to stay out of it, but many of my friends and their kids are really overboard with stress etc.

    Any parents/students out there going through it, been through it? Insights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    My son will begin looking at colleges next year. Like most Palo Alto/NorCal kids who are academically inclined, he's looking at some pretty stiff competition at the top colleges. This college admissions rat race is really distressing for many people. I try to stay out of it, but many of my friends and their kids are really overboard with stress etc.

    Any parents/students out there going through it, been through it? Insights?
    Ha, ha, ha... I have a lot to say about it. My kiddo is off to college soon. Chapman University in Orange County is the destination.

    The UC system is absolutely screwed up now. Rejection rates are insane.

    This is an interesting angle but just the tip of the iceberg. It's gonna get a bit worse next year. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/...er-david-hogg/
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    Congratulations! Chapman is a great college.

    A friend was telling me that top students are leaving California for early admissions out of state. She told me a kid she knew got into Columbia, and was rejected at UC Davis!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Congratulations! Chapman is a great college.

    A friend was telling me that top students are leaving California for early admissions out of state. She told me a kid she knew got into Columbia, and was rejected at UC Davis!
    What do you know about it? I know very little since my wife did all the tours with him.

    Kid got accepted to 7 schools. Zero of them UC. . It was about the norm in his high school, Mitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    What do you know about it? I know very little since my wife did all the tours with him.

    Kid got accepted to 7 schools. Zero of them UC. . It was about the norm in his high school, Mitty.

    fc
    I believe I have an attorney friend who went there. I've heard the name over the years and read some reviews on it. All positive.

    What were the other schools accepted/not accepted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I believe I have an attorney friend who went there. I've heard the name over the years and read some reviews on it. All positive.

    What were the other schools accepted/not accepted?
    Rejected in a bunch of UC's. Accepted in Univ of Portland, Univ of Oregon, UNR, Boulder, Gonzaga, Long Beach, Arizona... something like that. Big grants from private schools. Only loans at big out of state schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    The UC system is absolutely screwed up now. Rejection rates are insane.
    Facts are good. The UC system is not absolutely screwed up.

    OT: College Admissions Craziness-truth.png

    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Zero of them UC. It was about the norm in his high school, Mitty.
    OT: College Admissions Craziness-truth2.png

    It's highly unlikely that Mitty went from 178 admissions last year to zero this year.

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    Consider the community college route to get the GE/AA stuff out of the way. Once that's done, it is WAAAY easier to transfer to a UC as a Junior. My frugal oldest son did exactly that and kicked ass.
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    yes, it's crazy...a LOT harder these days to be able to take advantage of our excellent UC system. I feel fortunate that both my kids are UC-bound...my son's a comp sci / econ dual major at UCSC (got into a number of good UC's but wanted to be in SC for the riding / overall vibe) and my daughter if headed to UCSB next year - Honors College (so she gets preferred housing and class reg...the class reg is a big deal these days at UC's cause they're stuffing so many kids in there) BioChem major. She got into all the UC's except for Berkeley...her mom and I both went to UCLA undergrad and that was her second choice...but you just gotta love UCSB...I think it'll be a perfect choice for her. FWIW, my kids went / go to Leigh HS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riderup View Post
    yes, it's crazy...a LOT harder these days to be able to take advantage of our excellent UC system. I feel fortunate that both my kids are UC-bound...my son's a comp sci / econ dual major at UCSC (got into a number of good UC's but wanted to be in SC for the riding / overall vibe) and my daughter if headed to UCSB next year - Honors College (so she gets preferred housing and class reg...the class reg is a big deal these days at UC's cause they're stuffing so many kids in there) BioChem major. She got into all the UC's except for Berkeley...her mom and I both went to UCLA undergrad and that was her second choice...but you just gotta love UCSB...I think it'll be a perfect choice for her.
    Congratulations! Great info.

    My wife went to med school at UCLA. Big campus.

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    I didn't address one of the (really important) things you brought up in the first post...the stress. there's too much of it. let the kids be kids for crying out loud. I definitely feel your angst...people seem to telling our kids that this college decision is going to make-or-break for them...it's just college. Encourage the kids to find a place that suits their style (and stop listening to what everyone else thinks is best for them), where they can enjoy the process of learning, and have some bloody fun along the way.

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    college admissions in general has gotten more competitive. however, I feel that the UC's have always offered decent bang-for-the-buck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656 View Post
    college admissions in general has gotten more competitive. however, I feel that the UC's have always offered decent bang-for-the-buck.
    I think it's interesting to note that ~42% of UC students are the first people in their families to attend college...and ~40% qualify for Federal Pell grants (which means household income is $55k or less). It's great that these kids are getting some extra support...and I have zero problem helping to subsidize that.

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    Agreed on the CC route, so much easier to transfer in.

    It's crazy how many folks I meet in their early to mid 30's who are still paying off college debt. For an Art History degree...D'oh.

    The majority of friends that transferred from a CC to either a CSU or UC have graduated debt free.

    What kinda nest egg are the parents providing? We just started saving for our kiddo's education, but the variance for what I'll "need" vs what I'll really need, is insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    Agreed on the CC route, so much easier to transfer in.

    It's crazy how many folks I meet in their early to mid 30's who are still paying off college debt. For an Art History degree...D'oh.

    The majority of friends that transferred from a CC to either a CSU or UC have graduated debt free.

    What kinda nest egg are the parents providing? We just started saving for our kiddo's education, but the variance for what I'll "need" vs what I'll really need, is insane.
    529 programs are good vehicles for college savings...but, like anything savings-related, best to start early. As you may know, higher ed costs have risen significantly faster than standard cost of living...not sure how long that holds...but even UC tuition / room / board is running $30k / year now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riderup View Post
    I didn't address one of the (really important) things you brought up in the first post...the stress. there's too much of it. let the kids be kids for crying out loud. I definitely feel your angst...people seem to telling our kids that this college decision is going to make-or-break for them...it's just college. Encourage the kids to find a place that suits their style (and stop listening to what everyone else thinks is best for them), where they can enjoy the process of learning, and have some bloody fun along the way.
    Correct. I didn't stress about it. Just get in one good college and the pressure was off. Son was cool and only visited places he liked and was accepted too. Mom took care of it all and it's good they cast a big net.

    Daughter is different demographic. It'll either be very expensive or free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by riderup View Post
    529 programs are good vehicles for college savings...but, like anything savings-related, best to start early. As you may know, higher ed costs have risen significantly faster than standard cost of living...not sure how long that holds...but even UC tuition / room / board is running $30k / year now.
    The great irony of today would be to have two concurring payments... your own student loans and the college savings plans for one's kids.
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    Graduated high school in 2014.
    Went to SJSU for Mechanical Engineering. Will graduate in 4.5 years (Dec 2018), with a very manageable class load each semester. (Was able to ride 4 days a week this semester). I was able to get every single class I wanted each semester. (Which is definitely not the case with a lot of my friends going to other CSU/UC schools). Tuition ranged from $3600-$3900 per semester with no financial aid.

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    My wife and I both went to well respected undergrad programs. Frankly, I don't think it matters one bit where a student goes to undergrad. All the stress is unnecessary. What matters long term is an A+ attitude, not an A+ school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBoardman View Post
    Graduated high school in 2014.
    Went to SJSU for Mechanical Engineering. Will graduate in 4.5 years (Dec 2018), with a very manageable class load each semester. (Was able to ride 4 days a week this semester). I was able to get every single class I wanted each semester. (Which is definitely not the case with a lot of my friends going to other CSU/UC schools). Tuition ranged from $3600-$3900 per semester with no financial aid.
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    It is tough and competitive nation wide. At the top schools, the 75% for SAT verbal and Math is 800. It it typical to see kids with 15 AP classes and all 5.0's. And many of those kids are not getting in so they impact everything below.

    Way too much stress on these kids.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    My wife and I both went to well respected undergrad programs. Frankly, I don't think it matters one bit where a student goes to undergrad. All the stress is unnecessary. What matters long term is an A+ attitude, not an A+ school.
    I understand your point.

    I think if you're brilliant, motivated and socially adjusted, it doesn't matter much.

    But if you're borderline in any of those, it makes a difference. If we're just talking job some schools make a big difference but mostly not too much.

    But the friends, network, school allegiances and best years of your life are affected by college... and high school. It influences where you might live the rest of your days too.

    I think a decent school like USC or Stanford, then study one year in Europe, and one in Asia wouldn't be the worst.

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    Im transferring to Davis this fall. Going the community college route was the smartest thing i've ever done. You are basically guaranteed admission to most of the UC schools, and they make transferring stupidly easy. I had a 3.8 gpa out of high school and had no idea what i wanted to major in, and I wasn't about to waste my parents' money going to college aimlessly. Community college lets you figure out what you actually have interest in and actually like doing, spending less than 10k on tuition over 2 years (vs 40k over one year) then go and finish your undergrad wherever you want. Honestly I see no point in doing it any other way.

    Like Rboardman, I ride 3-4 days a week, work 24 hours a week, take 18 units (pharmaceutical chem major), totally happy, versus busting my ass in high school to get a 5.0 gpa so i can get rejected by the same school i just got into with my 3.8.

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    Success and happiness in life is definitely a collection of variables, including a bit of luck. The school name variable has had far too much importance and stress associated with it in my view.

    This little talk by Warren Buffett should be required listening for highschool kids.


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    My son graduated one year ago from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. He was a business major and got out in 4 years.
    I remember a ton of stress with most kids and parents around the college issue when he was applying.
    Personally I think it matters a lot on where you go to college. Every school is different and they all have there own vibe. The academics are only part of the equation. Our feeling as parents was we wanted our son to be in an environment that he was surrounded by hard working kids but also kids that played hard as well. The social aspect of college are huge I think. Life is all about being connected to others and if you're sitting in your room all day studying or playing video games your falling behind. Being away for 4 years and being on your own is a big deal and its swim or sink for many. Having a great group of friends in school can really help get through the hard times you may face in those 4 years.
    For my son, CP was the perfect choice. The school was full of kids that worked hard and played hard. Most of the kids were outgoing and very fun to be around and very bright.
    With our kids its always about who they surround themselves with and I think being lucky enough to go to a college with high quality kids ( whatever that means ) motivates them to stay the corse and work hard.
    On the job after college topic. Again I think the school comes into play when you start the job interview process. Depending on your major you may have a real advantage over others, if your school has a reputation for producing well prepared students.
    Lucky for us my son was able to get a good job out of school and has almost a year of the next chapter of life under his belt.
    If your kids have a school that they are dying to get into you may want to go the Early Decision or Early Action route? You are basically telling the school if they choose you you will go their school. It's a commitment to the school that you will go there if accepted.
    Thats what my son did and it may have helped get him into CP? The great thing is you find out months ahead of anyone else who didn't go that route. While my sons friends had to wait for several months to find out after he did.

    Good luck on the journey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sosburn View Post
    Im transferring to Davis this fall. Going the community college route was the smartest thing i've ever done. You are basically guaranteed admission to most of the UC schools, and they make transferring stupidly easy. I had a 3.8 gpa out of high school and had no idea what i wanted to major in, and I wasn't about to waste my parents' money going to college aimlessly. Community college lets you figure out what you actually have interest in and actually like doing, spending less than 10k on tuition over 2 years (vs 40k over one year) then go and finish your undergrad wherever you want. Honestly I see no point in doing it any other way.

    Like Rboardman, I ride 3-4 days a week, work 24 hours a week, take 18 units (pharmaceutical chem major), totally happy, versus busting my ass in high school to get a 5.0 gpa so i can get rejected by the same school i just got into with my 3.8.
    Love the insight and first-hand account. Much appreciated.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dp400 View Post
    My son graduated one year ago from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. He was a business major and got out in 4 years.
    I remember a ton of stress with most kids and parents around the college issue when he was applying.
    Personally I think it matters a lot on where you go to college. Every school is different and they all have there own vibe. The academics are only part of the equation. Our feeling as parents was we wanted our son to be in an environment that he was surrounded by hard working kids but also kids that played hard as well. The social aspect of college are huge I think. Life is all about being connected to others and if you're sitting in your room all day studying or playing video games your falling behind. Being away for 4 years and being on your own is a big deal and its swim or sink for many. Having a great group of friends in school can really help get through the hard times you may face in those 4 years.
    For my son, CP was the perfect choice. The school was full of kids that worked hard and played hard. Most of the kids were outgoing and very fun to be around and very bright.
    With our kids its always about who they surround themselves with and I think being lucky enough to go to a college with high quality kids ( whatever that means ) motivates them to stay the corse and work hard.
    On the job after college topic. Again I think the school comes into play when you start the job interview process. Depending on your major you may have a real advantage over others, if your school has a reputation for producing well prepared students.
    Lucky for us my son was able to get a good job out of school and has almost a year of the next chapter of life under his belt.
    If your kids have a school that they are dying to get into you may want to go the Early Decision or Early Action route? You are basically telling the school if they choose you you will go their school. It's competing to that school so you have to know thats where you really want to go.
    Thats what my son did and it may have helped get him into CP? The great thing is you find out months ahead of anyone else who didn't go that route. While my sons friends had to wait for several months to find out after he did.

    Good luck on the journey!
    Very, very good advice.

    Most Cal Poly alumni I've met are Cal Poly for life. That's a pretty special school when they can do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Very, very good advice.

    Most Cal Poly alumni I've met are Cal Poly for life. That's a pretty special school when they can do that.
    Yup! We know that first hand. GREAT school.

    My son had a 4.0 coming out of SRJC and was accepted by UC Davis, Cal Poly and Fresno State for Vit. He chose Cal Poly and loved every minute of it and he came out very well prepared.

    I have to say, as a parent, we loved the vibe down there and San Luis Obispo is a great college town to visit.

    After five years in his chosen field, this is the view from his porch. (He manages a 1600 acre ranch with over 400 acres of premium Pinot Noir)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT: College Admissions Craziness-front-door.jpg  

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    OT: College Admissions Craziness

    Quote Originally Posted by dp400 View Post
    My son graduated one year ago from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. He was a business major and got out in 4 years.
    I remember a ton of stress with most kids and parents around the college issue when he was applying.
    Personally I think it matters a lot on where you go to college. Every school is different and they all have there own vibe. The academics are only part of the equation. Our feeling as parents was we wanted our son to be in an environment that he was surrounded by hard working kids but also kids that played hard as well. The social aspect of college are huge I think. Life is all about being connected to others and if you're sitting in your room all day studying or playing video games your falling behind. Being away for 4 years and being on your own is a big deal and its swim or sink for many. Having a great group of friends in school can really help get through the hard times you may face in those 4 years.
    For my son, CP was the perfect choice. The school was full of kids that worked hard and played hard. Most of the kids were outgoing and very fun to be around and very bright.
    With our kids its always about who they surround themselves with and I think being lucky enough to go to a college with high quality kids ( whatever that means ) motivates them to stay the corse and work hard.
    On the job after college topic. Again I think the school comes into play when you start the job interview process. Depending on your major you may have a real advantage over others, if your school has a reputation for producing well prepared students.
    Lucky for us my son was able to get a good job out of school and has almost a year of the next chapter of life under his belt.
    If your kids have a school that they are dying to get into you may want to go the Early Decision or Early Action route? You are basically telling the school if they choose you you will go their school. It's a commitment to the school that you will go there if accepted.
    Thats what my son did and it may have helped get him into CP? The great thing is you find out months ahead of anyone else who didn't go that route. While my sons friends had to wait for several months to find out after he did.

    Good luck on the journey!
    My college experience was just the opposite.
    I went to school for class and studying, and nothing else. Lived at home and commuted everyday. Never went to any parties, or participated in clubs or organizations.

    But I was able to ride and race my moto/bike throughout my college experience. Made a ton of friends because of riding. And I've actually got both my job/internships through friends I've made because of riding/racing.

    Partying all night with the frat bros? Or waking up at 6am to shred with the Endruobros? I'm happy with my college experience, no regrets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBoardman View Post
    My college experience was just the opposite.
    I went to school for class and studying, and nothing else. Lived at home and commuted everyday. Never went to any parties, or participated in clubs or organizations.

    But I was able to ride and race my moto/bike throughout my college experience. Made a ton of friends because of riding. And I've actually got both my job/internships through friends I've made because of riding/racing.

    Partying all night with the frat bros? Or waking up at 6am to shred with the Endruobros? I'm happy with my college experience, no regrets.
    That's the way to do it.

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    Just listen to Dave Ramsey - then decide.

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    Hidden cost of UC - housing

    Quote Originally Posted by dth656 View Post
    college admissions in general has gotten more competitive. however, I feel that the UC's have always offered decent bang-for-the-buck.
    In state UC is pricey in a different way. When my son was looking at VT v.s UCI the VT out of state tuition was only 6k higher then in state UC and by the time you factored in housing. The overall price was the same, but with a legit football team!

    When my son went UCSB he paid 800 per month to share a room. At VT he got his own room and parking spot etc. for $300.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Very, very good advice.

    Most Cal Poly alumni I've met are Cal Poly for life. That's a pretty special school when they can do that.
    Thanks FC.

    Yeah CP is a special school and place! We loved going down there as well. All the kids we knew were really well rounded young adults and they worked hard to get in and while they were there.
    When your kids go away for school and have to grow up on their own for those 4 years they come out with a lot of life experiences and maturity.
    We had our son paying all of his bills and managing a budget which helps them in the future.

    After 4 years of cooking for himself he ended up being a great cook. Win Win!

    Good Luck to all the parents sending your kids off to school! Very exciting time!
    Last edited by dp400; 05-21-2018 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Correct. I didn't stress about it. Just get in one good college and the pressure was off. Son was cool and only visited places he liked and was accepted too. Mom took care of it all and it's good they cast a big net.

    Daughter is different demographic. It'll either be very expensive or free.
    Can you explain why your daughter has different standards than your son on this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBoardman View Post
    My college experience was just the opposite.
    I went to school for class and studying, and nothing else. Lived at home and commuted everyday. Never went to any parties, or participated in clubs or organizations.

    But I was able to ride and race my moto/bike throughout my college experience. Made a ton of friends because of riding. And I've actually got both my job/internships through friends I've made because of riding/racing.

    Partying all night with the frat bros? Or waking up at 6am to shred with the Endruobros? I'm happy with my college experience, no regrets.
    there is no one right answer for every kid. only right answer for parents is to help your kid find the right answer for them.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by stripes View Post
    Can you explain why your daughter has different standards than your son on this?
    Genius child she is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNovato View Post
    In state UC is pricey in a different way. When my son was looking at VT v.s UCI the VT out of state tuition was only 6k higher then in state UC and by the time you factored in housing. The overall price was the same, but with a legit football team!

    When my son went UCSB he paid 800 per month to share a room. At VT he got his own room and parking spot etc. for $300.
    For sure. They can't get too far away from market rate for rent. So California rents have to be factored in with these schools in our state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sosburn View Post
    That's the way to do it.
    I think a key takeaway from this thread is there is no right way to do it. Every kid is different. For each JC or live at home story here are many more kids that went a more traditional route.

    My daughter went the CSU route straight out of high school, had a great time, made tons of friends, got a good education that landed her a rewarding job right out of school.

    My son worked his ass off through high school while riding/racing 5-6 days a week after he stopped playing round ball sports. He had a great time and is now at Cal doing the same thing. Riding 5-6 days a week, partying with his frat bros when he doesnít have a race the next day and having the time of his life.

    Again, there is no right way.


    Re:OP and pressure - we see so much helicopter parenting inflicting crazy pressure on many kids. The proliferation of ďadmission coachesĒ (we will craft a public service resume and write your kidís entrance essay!) is just nuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    I think a key takeaway from this thread is there is no right way to do it. Every kid is different. For each JC or live at home story here are many more kids that went a more traditional route.

    My daughter went the CSU route straight out of high school, had a great time, made tons of friends, got a good education that landed her a rewarding job right out of school.

    My son worked his ass off through high school while riding/racing 5-6 days a week after he stopped playing round ball sports. He had a great time and is now at Cal doing the same thing. Riding 5-6 days a week, partying with his frat bros when he doesnít have a race the next day and having the time of his life.

    Again, there is no right way.


    Re:OP and pressure - we see so much helicopter parenting inflicting crazy pressure on many kids. The proliferation of ďadmission coachesĒ (we will craft a public service resume and write your kidís entrance essay!) is just nuts.
    Great advice. We all find our own way!

    Your son sounds like he is loving Cal. My son should graduate near the top of his class at Palo Alto High. Will be interesting to see what he does. I've been pretty hands off about the entire affair. But with many of our friends, it consumes their lives.

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    College tuition is insane. Luckily, both my kids received full ride Army ROTC scholarships and walked out of college debt free. No freakin' way I would pay the rates that these schools are asking nowadays.....just based on principle alone.
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    A good website to research college is here:

    https://www.niche.com/colleges/rankings/

    Also a lot of the kids now seem to organizing their sear through Naviance.
    https://www.naviance.com/

    Make sure you look in to that. It tell you where you are a shoe-in, a maybe or a longshot.
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    One thing about acceptance rates is they're a little worse than the numbers spell out now. UCLA and UC Berkeley have acceptance rates of 17% but really, most people can't even apply there or bother to apply because the tools and advisors tell them they have minimal chance anyway. Need an SAT of about 1400+ to have a decent chance so many can't even apply.

    https://www.niche.com/colleges/unive...--los-angeles/

    They are great schools but not sure they're serving the growing needs of the state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    One thing about acceptance rates is they're a little worse than the numbers spell out now. UCLA and UC Berkeley have acceptance rates of 17% but really, most people can't even apply there or bother to apply because the tools and advisors tell them they have minimal chance anyway. Need an SAT of about 1400+ to have a decent chance so many can't even apply.

    https://www.niche.com/colleges/unive...--los-angeles/

    They are great schools but not sure they're serving the growing needs of the state.
    I think you would need an SAT of 1500+ to really be serious about Cal or any top public university, and upper 1500's to be serious about an elite college. Or, you would need to be world class at something of value to the university.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    They are great schools but not sure they're serving the growing needs of the state.
    College entrance is, and always has been, a meritocracy.

    You aren't suggesting that colleges change their entrance criteria to accept lower-achieving students over more qualified students, are you?

    What would you change so that UCB and UCLA "serve the growing needs of the state"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fillaroida View Post
    College entrance is, and always has been, a meritocracy.
    Legacy is not meritocratic. Nor is the parent's ability to build gyms and classrooms. There is a segment of the student body that is not admitted solely on merit. Only speaking to elite colleges in general, not any in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Genius child she is.
    Ahh, so basically her choice. Awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    College tuition is insane. Luckily, both my kids received full ride Army ROTC scholarships and walked out of college debt free. No freakin' way I would pay the rates that these schools are asking nowadays.....just based on principle alone.
    100% absolutely positively agree. F debt, dont suck your family dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dchester View Post
    100% absolutely positively agree. F debt, dont suck your family dry.
    The great irony is tax dollars paid for the very universities that are bankrupting families. And in the case of private universities tax payers are actively subsidizing endowments through preferential tax treatment of donors.

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    Most college stories remind me of how little league parents would buy their kid a $400 bat, $200 glove, training, travel ball, after school BP with a has been ball player and the kid doesnít play beyond high school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Legacy is not meritocratic. Nor is the parent's ability to build gyms and classrooms. There is a segment of the student body that is not admitted solely on merit. Only speaking to elite colleges in general, not any in particular.
    Yeah, context is key. He used UCLA and UCB as examples. My comments and questions relate to public schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I think you would need an SAT of 1500+ to really be serious about Cal or any top public university, and upper 1500's to be serious about an elite college. Or, you would need to be world class at something of value to the university.
    This is a good one 5k!!

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/...tudents-needs/

    UNR, University of Nevada Reno has a pretty good model. They set their standards, and if the kids meet them, they'll take them in. They'll take the money and build the capacity and infrastructure to meet the demand. There is incredible growth going on in that school and it's boosting the economy and workforce of Reno.

    They see the demand coming from here and are trying to offer an outlet valve. The standard set is a little low (3.5 gpa OR 1050 sat) but it's working for many.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dchester View Post
    Most college stories remind me of how little league parents would buy their kid a $400 bat, $200 glove, training, travel ball, after school BP with a has been ball player and the kid doesnít play beyond high school.
    ha, ha... you have any idea how hard it is now to make the high school baseball team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    ha, ha... you have any idea how hard it is now to make the high school baseball team.
    HS baseball on the peninsula is the new college baseball!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    The great irony is tax dollars paid for the very universities that are bankrupting families. And in the case of private universities tax payers are actively subsidizing endowments through preferential tax treatment of donors.
    the affirmative action for rich kids applies more to Ivy and other private schools. the amount of dumb kids i saw at a bottom-tier Ivy courtesy of either legacy admissions or parental donations was eye-opening.

    with respect to UC B, i don't think legacy helps, but being able to throw a ball does. i think jason kidd was admitted to UCB with a combined SAT in the 700-800 range, when most of the kids in my dorm had 1450+.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656 View Post
    the affirmative action for rich kids applies more to Ivy and other private schools. the amount of dumb kids i saw at a bottom-tier Ivy courtesy of either legacy admissions or parental donations was eye-opening.

    with respect to UC B, i don't think legacy helps, but being able to throw a ball does. i think jason kidd was admitted to UCB with a combined SAT in the 700-800 range, when most of the kids in my dorm had 1450+.
    You have to bring value to the sport they are interested in. My son has friends that are going to Berkley with a good GPA (~3.8) but with no AP classes and 1200 SAT. They don't play with a ball but do other sports of interest to the school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    ha, ha... you have any idea how hard it is now to make the high school baseball team.
    I do, parent of a kid who didnít make it his junior year. Coached for 10 years in LL. Knew every kid, their parent, and the kids talent and abilities - high school coaches and parents act the same as they did in LL.

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    The country needs more of these students!

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ces/535870002/

    I wouldn't even get my hair cut except it's near the liquor store and it seems like my eyebrows need trimming now and then.

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    I see the stress amongst all my peer group's kids. It's comes around because the parents have conditioned the kids that if they don't go to Standford/Cal, then they'll becomes a failure and thus "lose face" for both the parents, the kids and the family as a whole. In many groups in the bay area, not making it to that level is a sign of failure. (Recall Tim Cook went to a school in Alabama).

    This pressure then trickles down tot the kids who then feel a sense of failure if they don't get into Stanford/Cal, and for many of them, they've *never* failed. They've always been carried by mom/dad or rewarded for 9th place (Cue line from Meet the Parents about ribbons for 9th place). So when Stanford/Cal doesn't accept them (they're not going to accept 50 kids each from Mitty/Belarmine/StFrancis/Saratoga/PaloAltoHS), their lives come crashing down.

    I always equate it to the first time some kid gets dumped in high school. They don't realize that it's just temporary. Remember that most parents are setting up "Getting into XYZ school" as the ultimate goal of the child's pre-college education.

    Growing up I saw parents of athletes yell at their kids to run/jump/whatever harder or faster. Now I see it applied to academics. I never thought I'd see kids depressed, afraid to go home or suicidal for fear of either disappointing their parents or more scary, the "wrath" of their parents when said parents found out the kid didn't get a A+ on an exam.

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    My two kids could not have been more different, scholastically. There was no way my youngest son was going to go to college and I didn't expect it.

    Unfortunately, vocational training in high school is virtually non-existent today and he is one who would have benefit from it. Fortunately he was focused and driven anyway. He's now an Electrician for PG&E and I could not be more proud of him.
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    You should point him to Mike Rowe's (of Dirty Jobs fame) posts on FB. He's a huge proponent of vocational training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjhiker View Post
    I see the stress amongst all my peer group's kids. It's comes around because the parents have conditioned the kids that if they don't go to Standford/Cal, then they'll becomes a failure and thus "lose face" for both the parents, the kids and the family as a whole. In many groups in the bay area, not making it to that level is a sign of failure. (Recall Tim Cook went to a school in Alabama).

    This pressure then trickles down tot the kids who then feel a sense of failure if they don't get into Stanford/Cal, and for many of them, they've *never* failed. They've always been carried by mom/dad or rewarded for 9th place (Cue line from Meet the Parents about ribbons for 9th place). So when Stanford/Cal doesn't accept them (they're not going to accept 50 kids each from Mitty/Belarmine/StFrancis/Saratoga/PaloAltoHS), their lives come crashing down.

    I always equate it to the first time some kid gets dumped in high school. They don't realize that it's just temporary. Remember that most parents are setting up "Getting into XYZ school" as the ultimate goal of the child's pre-college education.

    Growing up I saw parents of athletes yell at their kids to run/jump/whatever harder or faster. Now I see it applied to academics. I never thought I'd see kids depressed, afraid to go home or suicidal for fear of either disappointing their parents or more scary, the "wrath" of their parents when said parents found out the kid didn't get a A+ on an exam.
    I wouldn't blame the parents too much on this. And this issue goes way beyond Stanford/Cal.

    We live in a smart/expensive area and for the kids to actually live here, they have to excel. The parents want that and the kids want that too.

    Stanford has a 4% acceptance rate (and most don't even bother to apply) and they typically take 1 or 2 kids each from the best local high schools. The problem is most of these kids today won't even get accepted to UC Irvine, Cal Poly etc. It's harddd now to get accepted to a good CA public college.

    Kids are trying to get a rounded high school education with activities, merits and grades. But it seems the entrance fee now is a lofty SAT score to even be in the running for consideration.

    Of course, there's the crazy parents who say Stanford/Ivy League at all costs but that is not normal, even here.

    There is a crisis of really motivated kids and parents wanting good education in CA and our system cannot cope. Other states are coming to the rescue but they charge us crazy amounts of tuition while their in state kids get decent rates (University of Oregon, Boulder). Some families are moving to other states for this.

    In 5 years, it's about to get a whole lot worse IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjhiker View Post
    You should point him to Mike Rowe's (of Dirty Jobs fame) posts on FB. He's a huge proponent of skilled labor.
    So is the rest of the civilized world. No need to point him anywhere now. He's nearly three years into PG&E and has already got a nice nest egg started towards retirement. He's years ahead of many of his friends.
    You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjhiker View Post
    You should point him to Mike Rowe's (of Dirty Jobs fame) posts on FB. He's a huge proponent of vocational training.
    Beer making!!!! I'm telling ya. It's gonna save America.

    In Italy, many had pride in their vocational jobs.... like the guy who made my coffee. He did it very well and could support his family. Man, that was a good cup... at the train station!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Beer making!!!! I'm telling ya. It's gonna save America.

    In Italy, many had pride in their vocational jobs.... like the guy who made my coffee. He did it very well and could support his family. Man, that was a good cup... at the train station!
    Yes indeed. Whatever you do, do it to the best of your ability.

    Make good beer, drink good beer works for me too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjhiker View Post
    I see the stress amongst all my peer group's kids. It's comes around because the parents have conditioned the kids that if they don't go to Standford/Cal, then they'll becomes a failure and thus "lose face" for both the parents, the kids and the family as a whole. In many groups in the bay area, not making it to that level is a sign of failure. (Recall Tim Cook went to a school in Alabama).

    This pressure then trickles down tot the kids who then feel a sense of failure if they don't get into Stanford/Cal, and for many of them, they've *never* failed. They've always been carried by mom/dad or rewarded for 9th place (Cue line from Meet the Parents about ribbons for 9th place). So when Stanford/Cal doesn't accept them (they're not going to accept 50 kids each from Mitty/Belarmine/StFrancis/Saratoga/PaloAltoHS), their lives come crashing down.

    I always equate it to the first time some kid gets dumped in high school. They don't realize that it's just temporary. Remember that most parents are setting up "Getting into XYZ school" as the ultimate goal of the child's pre-college education.

    Growing up I saw parents of athletes yell at their kids to run/jump/whatever harder or faster. Now I see it applied to academics. I never thought I'd see kids depressed, afraid to go home or suicidal for fear of either disappointing their parents or more scary, the "wrath" of their parents when said parents found out the kid didn't get a A+ on an exam.
    This is a function of the top heavy society we've created.

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    I think ultimately the most important thing is what happens in the 50+ years of your kid's life after college, not during. A lot of high-achieving parents out there are helicoptering their kids only to have them peak out in high school or college. I went to an elite university (Penn, graduated 2015 so very recent experience) and so many folks I went to school with came out with pretty poor ROI for their parents' investment (particularly for the kids who went to private schools, had college counseling, played expensive sports like crew/lacrosse). Kids stressed themselves for years to fill rat-race positions in the lower rungs of professional America. I ended up being pretty lucky due to a multitude of factors:

    - School ended up being pretty cheap. I went to school after the financial crisis and there wasn't a lot of income in my family (particularly because we lived in a very cheap part of the country and could get by) when I was filling out financial aid forms. The first FAFSA application heavily influenced the next 3 over my four years. My university had a huge endowment and offered me a tremendous amount of financial assistance as well as help navigating the application process. It was scary at the time to attend a school that on paper cost $60K a year and having to reapply for financial aid each year with no guarantees, but it ended up being more like $15K a year with living expenses. I would highly recommend folks who think they might be eligible (not sure if anyone is in Norcal, since you need 100K+ income just to feed and cloth a kid here it seems) for financial aid to steer their kids towards private colleges which have "100% need met" indicating they have a policy of "if you get in, we'll make it affordable for you." I was debt free within a year of graduating, only took federal loans which are a great deal.
    - Choose a field that will reward you quickly for your investment. This is the key to being debt free, and I think being debt free is key to getting ROI from college. I was very lucky to go into software and be pretty good at it, which enabled me to make good money during school, and pay my loans off quickly.
    - Conversely to the previous point, don't burn money on school if you don't know what you want to do or want to do something that's not lucrative. I'm not sure how much of a place there is for a general education in today's society unfortunately, but I do know that the ROI on a "soft" degree from an expensive school is horrible. Better to do that at community college or an inexpensive state school to avoid significant debt.

    Maybe the most important thing I've realized is that so many kids are told that everything rides on the 4 years they spend at college, and this is just not true. I had a good time in school, but I was just getting to know myself in school. I know I would've had a better time at some other schools, but it set me up well for life in terms of not accumulating debt and learning a lot. I feel blessed everyday to think of how good my outcome is -- I don't really worry about anything important, I enjoy my work, and I get to ride bikes all the time. It's much more important what happens after -- school is just stressed because for so many people it sets the tone for the remainder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Consider the community college route to get the GE/AA stuff out of the way. Once that's done, it is WAAAY easier to transfer to a UC as a Junior. My frugal oldest son did exactly that and kicked ass.
    this is exactly what I am trying to talk my junior daughter into doing. Her mom and I both attended UCSD for 2 years and then moved back home after having a kid, did a year at JC then transferred to Cal Poly SLO. I am all about the JC route now. WAY cheaper in the long run. why do kids want to pay loans off for 25 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafekett View Post
    I think ultimately the most important thing is what happens in the 50+ years of your kid's life after college, not during. A lot of high-achieving parents out there are helicoptering their kids only to have them peak out in high school or college. I went to an elite university (Penn, graduated 2015 so very recent experience) and so many folks I went to school with came out with pretty poor ROI for their parents' investment (particularly for the kids who went to private schools, had college counseling, played expensive sports like crew/lacrosse). Kids stressed themselves for years to fill rat-race positions in the lower rungs of professional America. I ended up being pretty lucky due to a multitude of factors:

    - School ended up being pretty cheap. I went to school after the financial crisis and there wasn't a lot of income in my family (particularly because we lived in a very cheap part of the country and could get by) when I was filling out financial aid forms. The first FAFSA application heavily influenced the next 3 over my four years. My university had a huge endowment and offered me a tremendous amount of financial assistance as well as help navigating the application process. It was scary at the time to attend a school that on paper cost $60K a year and having to reapply for financial aid each year with no guarantees, but it ended up being more like $15K a year with living expenses. I would highly recommend folks who think they might be eligible (not sure if anyone is in Norcal, since you need 100K+ income just to feed and cloth a kid here it seems) for financial aid to steer their kids towards private colleges which have "100% need met" indicating they have a policy of "if you get in, we'll make it affordable for you." I was debt free within a year of graduating, only took federal loans which are a great deal.
    - Choose a field that will reward you quickly for your investment. This is the key to being debt free, and I think being debt free is key to getting ROI from college. I was very lucky to go into software and be pretty good at it, which enabled me to make good money during school, and pay my loans off quickly.
    - Conversely to the previous point, don't burn money on school if you don't know what you want to do or want to do something that's not lucrative. I'm not sure how much of a place there is for a general education in today's society unfortunately, but I do know that the ROI on a "soft" degree from an expensive school is horrible. Better to do that at community college or an inexpensive state school to avoid significant debt.

    Maybe the most important thing I've realized is that so many kids are told that everything rides on the 4 years they spend at college, and this is just not true. I had a good time in school, but I was just getting to know myself in school. I know I would've had a better time at some other schools, but it set me up well for life in terms of not accumulating debt and learning a lot. I feel blessed everyday to think of how good my outcome is -- I don't really worry about anything important, I enjoy my work, and I get to ride bikes all the time. It's much more important what happens after -- school is just stressed because for so many people it sets the tone for the remainder.
    Insightful share. Thank you!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogeron View Post
    this is exactly what I am trying to talk my junior daughter into doing. Her mom and I both attended UCSD for 2 years and then moved back home after having a kid, did a year at JC then transferred to Cal Poly SLO. I am all about the JC route now. WAY cheaper in the long run. why do kids want to pay loans off for 25 years?
    Graduated in 2010. went to a public high school that had 24 kids in my graduating class accepted to Stanford. Went to an out of state school (WSU) and was deemed essentially a failure in the eyes of many, applied for every scholarship i qualified for and many that i didnt, ended up with a whole bunch of $250-500 per semester scholarships on top of a big out-of-state-student scholarship. Lived cheaply, worked during the summers and when i graduated with a degree in engineering i continued living cheaply and paid off around $30k in student debt in 3 years. If you are ending up with over $100k in student debt from undergrad, you made a bad choice IMO.

    Undergrad name value really doesnt mean much unless you are applying for grad school. Might help you get an interview or two, but its your job performance and people skills that matters from there on out. College is just as much a social education as it is an academic one... more parents should realize this. your kid isnt some trophy or status symbol. its your kid. you are a succesful parent if they become happy, stable, contributing members of society.

    The JC route isnt a bad one, but i dont think its really worth it unless you are playing a sport as well. You miss out on such a big part of what college is about - the social education... and you only save much money if you can stay and eat at home for free. and that is a big IF for many kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I wouldn't blame the parents too much on this. And this issue goes way beyond Stanford/Cal.
    Oh, I'd definitely blame the parents!

    I think parenting is much more of competitive blood sport now that it was when I was a kid in the 70s. The amount of parental trash talking and shaming I see go on in social media is pretty outrageous.

    It has never been easier for parents to feel insecure, and there are entire industries that feed on that. Excessive tutoring, year round sports camps and leagues for kids who have little interest in sports and zero chance for an athletic scholarship, etc.

    It's crazy, and very hard for parents to not get sucked up in it.

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    College? Get into a union apprentice program for free. Get paid what many college grads do out of HS. Get paid to master a skill, instead of paying for mostly useless unapplicable knowledge. Have 4-5 years of earnings and smart investments in the books before a college kid even gets rolling. Use all that money you saved not going to college to open or buy a business by your early 30s and not be a slave to the 9-5 man. Work hard, play hard. The blue collar way! (Only kinda kidding..)

    College has it's place for sure, but with a hard work ethic and the ability to learn quickly. It really doesn't make near the financial sense it once did.

    Of all my close friends. Only the dentist and doctor make more with their college degrees than their no college counterparts. And the doctor and dentist still have $100,000 of loans to pay off.... The rest are either very similar or making more doing blue collar trades.

    I have a master's and my wife a PhD. Don't regret it one bit. We had all our school paid for by 30. But i also feel way to many parents push their kids to college simply because it's what you're "supposed" to do.

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    i'm hoping that my kid writing about all the effort of getting on the podium one time at a NorCal High School Cycling League race helped him get into UCSC, lol. He's coming up on his 3rd and hopefully last year living at the "bike house"

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    Quote Originally Posted by prozach0215 View Post
    College? Get into a union apprentice program for free. Get paid what many college grads do out of HS. Get paid to master a skill, instead of paying for mostly useless unapplicable knowledge. Have 4-5 years of earnings and smart investments in the books before a college kid even gets rolling. Use all that money you saved not going to college to open or buy a business by your early 30s and not be a slave to the 9-5 man. Work hard, play hard. The blue collar way! (Only kinda kidding..)

    College has it's place for sure, but with a hard work ethic and the ability to learn quickly. It really doesn't make near the financial sense it once did.

    Of all my close friends. Only the dentist and doctor make more with their college degrees than their no college counterparts. And the doctor and dentist still have $100,000 of loans to pay off.... The rest are either very similar or making more doing blue collar trades.

    I have a master's and my wife a PhD. Don't regret it one bit. We had all our school paid for by 30. But i also feel way to many parents push their kids to college simply because it's what you're "supposed" to do.
    Post of the year. Nailed it.

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    Saw this on FB and thought it was kinda relevant and funny. Good grades do not equal success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBoardman View Post
    Saw this on FB and thought it was kinda relevant and funny. Good grades do not equal success.
    One of my very good friends can one up that. He has a Citation X, never graduated from college (flunked out), and didn't make his money in high tech. Construction business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Ha, ha, ha... I have a lot to say about it. My kiddo is off to college soon. Chapman University in Orange County is the destination.
    Go Panthers! Daughter just finished her first year. She was in the worst dorm, but everything else was great. She made an excellent choice. (LMU and Pepperdine were other acceptances) The community has the very cute "Orange Circle". Yes, the application process was not fun. Apply at a huge range of schools, and know that out-of-state schools have a better chance...but you may never see your kids...or grandkids. Just send money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafekett View Post
    I think ultimately the most important thing is what happens in the 50+ years of your kid's life after college, not during. A lot of high-achieving parents out there are helicoptering their kids only to have them peak out in high school or college. I went to an elite university (Penn, graduated 2015 so very recent experience) and so many folks I went to school with came out with pretty poor ROI for their parents' investment (particularly for the kids who went to private schools, had college counseling, played expensive sports like crew/lacrosse). Kids stressed themselves for years to fill rat-race positions in the lower rungs of professional America. I ended up being pretty lucky due to a multitude of factors:

    - School ended up being pretty cheap. I went to school after the financial crisis and there wasn't a lot of income in my family (particularly because we lived in a very cheap part of the country and could get by) when I was filling out financial aid forms. The first FAFSA application heavily influenced the next 3 over my four years. My university had a huge endowment and offered me a tremendous amount of financial assistance as well as help navigating the application process. It was scary at the time to attend a school that on paper cost $60K a year and having to reapply for financial aid each year with no guarantees, but it ended up being more like $15K a year with living expenses. I would highly recommend folks who think they might be eligible (not sure if anyone is in Norcal, since you need 100K+ income just to feed and cloth a kid here it seems) for financial aid to steer their kids towards private colleges which have "100% need met" indicating they have a policy of "if you get in, we'll make it affordable for you." I was debt free within a year of graduating, only took federal loans which are a great deal.
    - Choose a field that will reward you quickly for your investment. This is the key to being debt free, and I think being debt free is key to getting ROI from college. I was very lucky to go into software and be pretty good at it, which enabled me to make good money during school, and pay my loans off quickly.
    - Conversely to the previous point, don't burn money on school if you don't know what you want to do or want to do something that's not lucrative. I'm not sure how much of a place there is for a general education in today's society unfortunately, but I do know that the ROI on a "soft" degree from an expensive school is horrible. Better to do that at community college or an inexpensive state school to avoid significant debt.

    Maybe the most important thing I've realized is that so many kids are told that everything rides on the 4 years they spend at college, and this is just not true. I had a good time in school, but I was just getting to know myself in school. I know I would've had a better time at some other schools, but it set me up well for life in terms of not accumulating debt and learning a lot. I feel blessed everyday to think of how good my outcome is -- I don't really worry about anything important, I enjoy my work, and I get to ride bikes all the time. It's much more important what happens after -- school is just stressed because for so many people it sets the tone for the remainder.
    Word. Poetry - i like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karld View Post
    Go Panthers! Daughter just finished her first year. She was in the worst dorm, but everything else was great. She made an excellent choice. (LMU and Pepperdine were other acceptances) The community has the very cute "Orange Circle". Yes, the application process was not fun. Apply at a huge range of schools, and know that out-of-state schools have a better chance...but you may never see your kids...or grandkids. Just send money!
    What's the worst dorm?
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    I agree that the UC process is currently broken. I have a high school senior that had very respectable grades, unique profile, good scores all around, will play collegiate sports (not club), had many outside interests and teacher/principle recommendations and ended wait listed at all UC schools she picked. She ended up choosing an international opportunity on a first rate scholarship at a world class university and will not look back. The key for avg kids in the Bay Area is GPA + class rank, and they need to be pretty stellar (>4.4) to get into the pile for deeper review for these "imperfect" avg students. The stress it places on the kids is shameful. The other issues is the single application process that instantly impacts all schools. The resulting wait list naturally thins out because people cant wait till August to plan their lives and that is just too late for most people to wait. Again a broken process to force this impaction.

    The admit numbers are tricky, and more importantly they aggregate things which then smudges what is really happening. The real number of slots available to the avg senior in Cal High Schools is remarkably small and that is the population that is paying the UC coffers. I repeat, the system is broken. It all starts with the high priced International kids, the out of state kids, the first generation kids and then underprivileged kids and the JC transfers. (not all Cal residents). I have seen numbers as low as 20%, but that happens at specific schools and so you have to dig into the school of interest to quote numbers.

    Anyway, as others have said, the JC route is a phenomenal opportunity and really should be taken seriously. With strong but not crazy grades, JC has guaranteed transfer admission to most any UC school (Brkly and LA not withstanding)...think about that from a financial and likelihood to graduate point of view. UC set this up, mapping classes perfectly, in order to clear up the impacted undergraduate classes.

    Good luck and remember that the pressure these kids feel (even in low stress homes) is very high. Be super supportive in the second semester of senior year, it is painful to watch. I noticed that my kid had not laughed in a long time and only recently has started to laugh again after she decided what to do. ;(.

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    Way too much stress. And prices are making me sad.

    Kids should do a sham marriage, emancipate, and get need based scholarship. That's my plan. Or sending them abroad.

    They can get back to Stanford and such for grad school, for free. That's what I did, zero dollars cost for college and Ph.D.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommybees View Post
    I agree that the UC process is currently broken. I have a high school senior that had very respectable grades, unique profile, good scores all around, will play collegiate sports (not club), had many outside interests and teacher/principle recommendations and ended wait listed at all UC schools she picked. She ended up choosing an international opportunity on a first rate scholarship at a world class university and will not look back. The key for avg kids in the Bay Area is GPA + class rank, and they need to be pretty stellar (>4.4) to get into the pile for deeper review for these "imperfect" avg students. The stress it places on the kids is shameful. The other issues is the single application process that instantly impacts all schools. The resulting wait list naturally thins out because people cant wait till August to plan their lives and that is just too late for most people to wait. Again a broken process to force this impaction.

    The admit numbers are tricky, and more importantly they aggregate things which then smudges what is really happening. The real number of slots available to the avg senior in Cal High Schools is remarkably small and that is the population that is paying the UC coffers. I repeat, the system is broken. It all starts with the high priced International kids, the out of state kids, the first generation kids and then underprivileged kids and the JC transfers. (not all Cal residents). I have seen numbers as low as 20%, but that happens at specific schools and so you have to dig into the school of interest to quote numbers.

    Anyway, as others have said, the JC route is a phenomenal opportunity and really should be taken seriously. With strong but not crazy grades, JC has guaranteed transfer admission to most any UC school (Brkly and LA not withstanding)...think about that from a financial and likelihood to graduate point of view. UC set this up, mapping classes perfectly, in order to clear up the impacted undergraduate classes.

    Good luck and remember that the pressure these kids feel (even in low stress homes) is very high. Be super supportive in the second semester of senior year, it is painful to watch. I noticed that my kid had not laughed in a long time and only recently has started to laugh again after she decided what to do. ;(.
    This is brilliant. This is the story I hear over and over this year in my circle.
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    Go to school on the GI Bill.

    Learn something about yourself and others of wildly different circumstances.

    And, generally speaking, skip all the stress of admissions.


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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Way too much stress. And prices are making me sad.

    Kids should do a sham marriage, emancipate, and get need based scholarship. That's my plan. Or sending them abroad.

    They can get back to Stanford and such for grad school, for free. That's what I did, zero dollars cost for college and Ph.D.
    This needs to be emphasized.

    If people are paying money to go to grad school, they shouldnít be in a graduate program. Thatís the hard truth.

    Exceptions being law and med school.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    This needs to be emphasized.

    If people are paying money to go to grad school, they shouldnít be in a graduate program. Thatís the hard truth.

    Exceptions being law and med school.


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    Education is the best investment a country and society can make. Why isn't college and grad school free for everyone?

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    Back in my day a long time ago most of my friends were going to 4 year schools after high school and I was on track to do the same but long story short I went the JC route and transferred to a 4 year to finish up college. Looking back at it now I agree with others on here that it is a great option now more than ever. Yeah it's hard for some kids to accept but I never had a job interview where they asked me where I went to junior college. Plus that kid you want to send off can live with you just a few more years, lol.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Education is the best investment a country and society can make. Why isn't college and grad school free for everyone?
    Oh, I donít disagree at all.

    Iím just saying that, given our current system, if you canít find a grad school to pay you to go there, itís not for you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Education is the best investment a country and society can make. Why isn't college and grad school free for everyone?
    It seems we are third-world in this arena. US is bad and CA is worse with regards to college public schools.

    I have some Norway and Swiss colleagues. They say free. You want in? In! You want to do something else, fine.

    To send my kid to University of Oregon or Boulder (good but not amazing) seems like $250k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Go to school on the GI Bill.

    Learn something about yourself and others of wildly different circumstances.

    And, generally speaking, skip all the stress of admissions.


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    There's a lot of wisdom to this. My father served in the Vietnam War, and had a horrific job there. Back stateside he become very successful, having never gone to college. I'm convinced it was his ability to manage his emotions under stress and his infinite patience developed from the military. Growing up in Ft Bragg NC, I was surrounded by similar type people.

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    I can't imagine dropping the coin for my kid to go to a private University unless he has a lot of scholarships that reduce the financial burden, or, it was a top school like Stanford or Caltech. That being said, I'm amazed at how much the landscape has changed here at home, especially for UC applicants. But, there are a lot of good options for public universities not far from CA. UW has established itself as a top tier engineering and technology school, ASU and UofA both have high ranked undergrad business and IS programs, Utah has a lot of good programs and isn't difficult to get into, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. The nice thing about a lot of other State Universities, is the breadth of degrees available to pursue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Education is the best investment a country and society can make. Why isn't college and grad school free for everyone?
    Cause a MA degree in european history isnt worth the paper its printed on to our society. IMO, the gov't should post a list of "in-need majors" every 5-10 years, and if you graduate with that major, then school should be highly discounted or free.

    Waaaaaaay too many kids go to college, just for the sake of going to college. their only reason is because it is the next step in the system and all their peers are going, and all their parents expect them too. Any why wouldnt they continue living on their parents dime while partying their face off for 4-5 more years. Deal with the monetary consequences down the road.


    In regards to trades, i know quite a few tradesman (plumber, 2 electricians, and welder very well). They all make good money at their jobs, make REALLY good money on their weekend cash only side jobs and have been since their early 20s. That said, they all have issues with their body breaking down- hand/wrist/elbow arthritis, back issues etc and they are only in their 30s. I know they have all collected some kind of gov't assistance during times when they have been injured from MTB or skiing/snowboarding and couldn't work in the field, while ive had similar injuries and because i drive a cubicle i didnt miss work. trades have a lot of positives (kinda like Fire Department and Police Department) that seem really attractive to me, but i have also seen how nearly every tradesman i know has their body start breaking down on them earlier than i would like.

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    I had a friend in high school that got took a handful of college classes in lieu of high school classes. Such as a math class at Stanford. He was rejected from the majority of California schools, because he didn't take enough high school math, Cal-Poly was the notable one because that is where he wanted to go. He ended up at Yale.

    The challenge is extra tedious for kids attending private high schools. Top percentage of public high school grads get automatic admission into UC system. Despite most (not all) public schools being easier. Private schools typically grade a little bit harder too. You take a failing student from my local private school and put them into the local public school (which gets awards for academics) and that student will have a 3.5 or higher. I know at least a dozen kids that have done that, same result every time. "Your GPA says you are a 2.5 GPA but your SAT and ACT fall are more in line with a 3.5 student, that isn't right"

    There are a few Undergrad programs that actually compute your high schools difficulty into account, I know West Point does. For what it is worth, that is a public institution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommybees View Post
    The admit numbers are tricky, and more importantly they aggregate things which then smudges what is really happening. The real number of slots available to the avg senior in Cal High Schools is remarkably small and that is the population that is paying the UC coffers. I repeat, the system is broken. It all starts with the high priced International kids, the out of state kids, the first generation kids and then underprivileged kids and the JC transfers. (not all Cal residents). I have seen numbers as low as 20%, but that happens at specific schools and so you have to dig into the school of interest to quote numbers.
    One of the interesting disconnects is that people imagine that slots at the top public universities should be made available to "average seniors."

    Again, it's a meritocracy, that's not how it works, and that's why the CA public college system is tiered ---> JC, CSU, UC.

    I do agree that it is helpful to dig into the UC numbers.

    All UC campuses:

    "High-priced international kids" 16% of applicants/17% of admits/13" of enrollees

    "out of state kids" 19% of applicants/17% of applicants/8% of enrollees

    "first generation kids" 37% of applicants/34% of admits/40% of enrollees

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfpilot View Post
    I had a friend in high school that got took a handful of college classes in lieu of high school classes. Such as a math class at Stanford. He was rejected from the majority of California schools, because he didn't take enough high school math, Cal-Poly was the notable one because that is where he wanted to go. He ended up at Yale.

    The challenge is extra tedious for kids attending private high schools. Top percentage of public high school grads get automatic admission into UC system. Despite most (not all) public schools being easier. Private schools typically grade a little bit harder too. You take a failing student from my local private school and put them into the local public school (which gets awards for academics) and that student will have a 3.5 or higher. I know at least a dozen kids that have done that, same result every time. "Your GPA says you are a 2.5 GPA but your SAT and ACT fall are more in line with a 3.5 student, that isn't right"

    There are a few Undergrad programs that actually compute your high schools difficulty into account, I know West Point does. For what it is worth, that is a public institution.
    Great share man. Much appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfpilot View Post

    The challenge is extra tedious for kids attending private high schools. Top percentage of public high school grads get automatic admission into UC system. Despite most (not all) public schools being easier. Private schools typically grade a little bit harder too. You take a failing student from my local private school and put them into the local public school (which gets awards for academics) and that student will have a 3.5 or higher. I know at least a dozen kids that have done that, same result every time. "Your GPA says you are a 2.5 GPA but your SAT and ACT fall are more in line with a 3.5 student, that isn't right"

    There are a few Undergrad programs that actually compute your high schools difficulty into account, I know West Point does. For what it is worth, that is a public institution.
    YES! My daughter went to an excellent private school, and felt hindered by a lower GPA and fewer AP courses than would have been the case in a public skool. We assumed that admissions counselors would make a subjective adjustment. I think they do in private universities, but the public ones are more rigid. (Also, don't be afraid of the cost or private skools. Apply to a few anyway. We were offered generous discounts, without being poor or gifted. They're running a business and know the competition!)

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    Morlan. Doesn't "everybody" know that? ;-) Cinder block walls, poor ventilation, questionable heating and cooling. The assigned Freshman dorms are based on the students major, and they rotate from year to year. Not much you can do, except fill-out the roommate-matching questionnaire very carefully.

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    Counterpoint:

    I grew up in a wealthy suburb of Chicago. Two public high schools, and three private high schools either in town or within a reasonable driving distance.

    The private schools all had lower average test scores than the public options. And most of the people I knew that went to those schools (sure, bias in selection) were not in the running for an academic scholarship to any well reputed school.




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    Millenial here, and i've done the community college transfer to cal state university (B.S.) then straight back to grad school at the same CSU.

    My view is that people place too much emphasis on "the best school" and don't even consider which school has the best department for their degree. I have a fairly unusual degree and the reason I returned to grad school at the same CSU was that I actually liked the M.S. research opportunities better there than the opportunities at much more prestigious schools. The department at my university for my actual major was pretty amazing and I think better than those that would have cost an arm and a leg to attend.

    Community college was great, the only bad thing was that even completing the CSU GE at community college, I got burned on transferring. Community college makes going to a UC pretty easy but not really recommended if you are going to a CSU for reasons like I mentioned, I completed the CSU GE but ended up basically doing an entire years worth of extra classes when I transferred to the CSU as they made me do extra classes of university study on their campus that I would have completed if I did the CSU GE there. Plus some undergrad classes for the major that I would have done at the CSU weren't offered at my community college, so I had to wait to take those. Don't even get me started on the different requirements and systems for math, physics, and chemistry, the whole sequence must be completed at one university or the other so things get messy if you need those classes.

    The interesting part of all this is that upon returning to my CSU for grad school, people who went to high end UCs and world universities ended up at the same college as mine, and since the M.S. is more important than the B.S., everyone basically ends up with the CSU MS and it probably doesn't ever matter that they went to a high end school for the B.S. anyways, so that's always something to consider.

    The most important part of all this too is probably whether you are doing the commute to school and live at home or go move out to some faraway campus for the experience. That debate and the costs associated are probably way more important on your child's future than the name of the college they go to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Counterpoint:

    I grew up in a wealthy suburb of Chicago. Two public high schools, and three private high schools either in town or within a reasonable driving distance.

    The private schools all had lower average test scores than the public options. And most of the people I knew that went to those schools (sure, bias in selection) were not in the running for an academic scholarship to any well reputed school.


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    uh huh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by karld View Post
    YES! My daughter went to an excellent private school, and felt hindered by a lower GPA and fewer AP courses than would have been the case in a public skool. We assumed that admissions counselors would make a subjective adjustment. I think they do in private universities, but the public ones are more rigid. (Also, don't be afraid of the cost or private skools. Apply to a few anyway. We were offered generous discounts, without being poor or gifted. They're running a business and know the competition!)
    Yes, all the activities, clubs, community service seem to be overlooked at UC until you hit the base level gpa and sat.

    Other universities around the country seem to see it though. Problem is 'out of state' tuition can be 3x more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Consider the community college route to get the GE/AA stuff out of the way. Once that's done, it is WAAAY easier to transfer to a UC as a Junior. My frugal oldest son did exactly that and kicked ass.
    For CA residence UC has recently adopted guaranteed admission for those who complete min 2 years at CC and show good grades. Seems like a good plan!

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  5. Craziness on that auction site
    By Slow Eddie in forum Fat bikes
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 03-19-2011, 01:41 PM

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