OSPD/knee pain quesion

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  • 01-20-2011
    dth656
    OSPD/knee pain quesion
    *edit* oops, the title should say "SPD/knee" not "OSPD/knee"

    hi all,

    i wanted to pose a question to the experts on the forum regarding knee pain.

    basically i've been riding shimano SPDs since 1994 w/ no issues on various different bikes. i've been thru many pairs of shoes and cleats, and never any problems (i've always kept the cleat relatively centered in the shoe), and the spd float in the pedals has always been great for me.

    i recently got some wellgo flats w/ an SPD cleat on one side (the wellgo WAM-D10
    http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/142...als.htm)...and a pair of 661 filter shoes. when i first tried the shoes on the cleat side, it was like stepping into cement (no float at all), and i had significant knee sharp pains in both my knees the day after a ride i adjusted the cleat angle and position so that it matched what i have on my old sidi shoes, and cut away some of the sole material so that i could get a bit of float--that seemed to address the sharp pain issue.

    however, after a ride, i'm still getting a bit of a burning sensation on the bottom half of my right knee (its not painful, just a bit of discomfort). has anyone else experienced a sensation like that? its not a sharp pain or anything---but i wanted to see if people had thoughts on causes. this weekend, i'm going to go for a short ride, and use my old sidi shoes to see if i can isolate the issue to the shoe itself (lack of arch support? less float?).

    if that doesnt work, however, i'm out of ideas, as i've already adjusted the cleat position/angle, and the bike is the same (blur LT2). as a last resort, i might try a professional bike fitting session, but nothing about the bike geometry has changed (other than the pedals)

    thanks in advance for the replies

    the problem is
  • 01-20-2011
    Wherewolf
    Duhhh
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dth656
    ...basically i've been riding shimano SPDs since 1994 w/ no issues on various different bikes. i've been thru many pairs of shoes and cleats, and never any problems (i've always kept the cleat relatively centered in the shoe), and the spd float in the pedals has always been great for me....

    The solution to your prolem is above :D
    And I am an expert on knee pain.
  • 01-20-2011
    diver160651
    Sounds like you have "Kneemonia".

    Seriously, the amount float and the smallest amount stack height change can make an impact.

    Hope you feel better.
  • 01-20-2011
    dth656
    thanks for the replies guys---after trying out the sidis, you are right, i may have to return completely to my old setup.

    the reason i'd moved to the new setup is that i'd started riding a little rougher stuff where i wanted to unclip (example: wagon wheel section at tamorancho--w/ the old setup, i'd unclip one foot, and ride it hesitantly---w/ the new setup, i unclip both feet, and the skate style shoe grips the pedal side of the combo pedals really well, so i clear the section at much higher speed, w/ a lot more confidence)--i know its a confidence issue, but the simple act of unclipping had helped me a lot i felt.
  • 01-20-2011
    Moto'n'PushBiker
    I've used this article a couple of times to figure out what changes in bike position could cause pain suddenly occurring in the knee:
    http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

    It sounds you might want to try to move the cleats forward and/or raise the seat.
  • 01-20-2011
    diver160651
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Moto'n'PushBiker
    I've used this article a couple of times to figure out what changes in bike position could cause pain suddenly occurring in the knee:
    http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

    It sounds you might want to try to move the cleats forward and/or raise the seat.

    In general, I defiantly accept some of the articles online. I have seen many of my racer-totally dialed in riding companions, end with IT band issues after moving their seats up just a MM or two.

    You also want to be extremely carful that you do not have a cleat to far forward. When combined with a saddle that is higher than optimal this really promotes "pointing". It tightens the calf and can over stretch the Achilles. Another, problem seen in the race set as well as runners.

    A seat that is to low, usually only robs power -- unless your really putting in the miles.

    Mashers often have their saddles to low and cleats to far back. The MASHING is the issue; not really the slightly lower saddle. Yes, moving the units to positions that promotes spinning can be reduce some types of pain. Because "power" is a function of rpm & torque, most people, once spinning in the proper window, will exert less pressure on their joints and develop more power.

    If you are putting in a bunch of miles and are trying to squeeze out as much efficiency as you can, a bike fit should be better than the online stuff. There are a couple of great bike fitters in our area. One in Santa Cruz and one in San Jose.. But It isn't cheap for one of these guys, nor is your health :-)
  • 01-20-2011
    dth656
    moto'n pushbiker,

    sorry, i should have indicated in the original post, but i did use that article to help me adjust (actually http://www.cptips.com/knee2.htm) the cleat position and seat and address the sharp pains that i initially had. i didn't see a description, however, of the slight remaining discomfort that i'm still getting...i'll try the plumb bob test again w/ the pedal at 3 o'clock and see if i have to adjust the saddle fore/aft
  • 01-20-2011
    dth656
    diver--

    makes sense--i may end up going to a bike fit professional. i'm definitely not putting huge miles in, i'm more of a casual rider (ideally get 2 15-mile loops in over a weekend, usually in annadel). also, i wasnt really going for super efficiency, just want to address the pain issue and make sure i dont do any long-term damage (i've seen a couple that was 70+ years on blur XCs in annadel before, and i def want to be cranking like them at that age!)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by diver160651
    In general, I defiantly accept some of the articles online. I have seen many of my racer-totally dialed in riding companions, end with IT band issues after moving their seats up just a MM or two.

    You also want to be extremely carful that you do not have a cleat to far forward. When combined with a saddle that is higher than optimal this really promotes "pointing". It tightens the calf and can over stretch the Achilles. Another, problem seen in the race set as well as runners.

    A seat that is to low, usually only robs power -- unless your really putting in the miles.

    Mashers often have their saddles to low and cleats to far back. The MASHING is the issue; not really the slightly lower saddle. Yes, moving the units to positions that promotes spinning can be reduce some types of pain. Because "power" is a function of rpm & torque, most people, once spinning in the proper window, will exert less pressure on their joints and develop more power.

    If you are putting in a bunch of miles and are trying to squeeze out as much efficiency as you can, a bike fit should be better than the online stuff. There are a couple of great bike fitters in our area. One in Santa Cruz and one in San Jose.. But It isn't cheap for one of these guys, nor is your health :-)

  • 01-21-2011
    Moto'n'PushBiker
    Were there any other changes in your riding? I mean, did you stop riding with the rain and then start again trying to catch up?

    The pain can be all sorts of things and not necessarily all related to fit. E.g. if your leg muscles are imbalanced the patella doesn't track well. Some info is here: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/k...s/a/knee11.htm A fix would be to change the muscle imbalance.

    If the pain is persistent I would consider seeing a doctor or physical therapist. A bike fitter (even a good one) does not usually attempt to change body posture or mechanics. A Dr/PT does not necessarily know biking mechanics, but that's easier to explain and show.
  • 01-24-2011
    dth656
    moto--

    i have been off the bike for about 6 months due to a broken arm, and only in the past few weeks have i started riding a bit (very mellow, paved jogging trails, about 6-8 miles in duration). however, the knee burning sensation i something i was trying to address prior to breaking my arm. my leg muscles have the normal soreness associated w/ taking a long break from cycling, and the knee discomfort is the only thing out of the ordinary for me.

    i don't think its a leg/muscle imbalance issue, as i've ridden for so long w/ no pain of any kind (unless some aging related process just happened to coincide w/ me getting a new shoe/pedal setup)

    on saturday, i rode w/ my sidi shoes clipped into the wellgo pedals--a lot more float than previously. came back from my ride, no discomfort. next day (sunday), no discomfort at all, didnt ride at all, and just went for a walk later in the day. about an hour or so before i left for the walk, and afterwards (but not during), the mild discomfort came back. however, much less in both duration and intensity then previously--so i'm thinking that its a float issue. next week, i'll return completely to my old setup--if that resolves everything, then i'll set up a bike fit session to see if there is anyway of replicating the same geometry w/ a platform setup. thanks again everyone for the replies



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Moto'n'PushBiker
    Were there any other changes in your riding? I mean, did you stop riding with the rain and then start again trying to catch up?

    The pain can be all sorts of things and not necessarily all related to fit. E.g. if your leg muscles are imbalanced the patella doesn't track well. Some info is here: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/k...s/a/knee11.htm A fix would be to change the muscle imbalance.

    If the pain is persistent I would consider seeing a doctor or physical therapist. A bike fitter (even a good one) does not usually attempt to change body posture or mechanics. A Dr/PT does not necessarily know biking mechanics, but that's easier to explain and show.