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  1. #1
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    No Ebike sign at Demo Forest

    Went on a Christmas day ride at the Demo Forest and noticed some No Ebikes allowed signs. I'm aware that they are not allowed there but never noticed the sign before. Was there an incident involving an ebike user recently? Have there been dozens of ebikes terrorizing the trails causing outrage but local riders? Or am I crazy and the signs were always there?

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    So, Iíve been there a few times this year. Every time I was there, I seen guys riding them. If I saw them, Iím sure others have too


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    Supposedly the signs are coming to Annadel, too. The park adopted a policy against them a couple of months ago and posted it on their State Parks Website.Signs are a couple of months out, I hear.

    Possible that the same thing happened at Demo. Policy first, signs to follow.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    Good on them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Went on a Christmas day ride at the Demo Forest and noticed some No Ebikes allowed signs. I'm aware that they are not allowed there but never noticed the sign before. Was there an incident involving an ebike user recently? Have there been dozens of ebikes terrorizing the trails causing outrage but local riders? Or am I crazy and the signs were always there?
    Quote Originally Posted by dsmxsteve View Post
    So, Iíve been there a few times this year. Every time I was there, I seen guys riding them. If I saw them, Iím sure others have too

    Many folks have complained about ebikes seen out there, so I suspect the signs are a new reminder to the poachers. The signs were not there on Dec. 13th.

    They need to increase enforcement, for the signs to be taken seriously. Same problem most everywhere that doesn't have the budget for enforcement.



    However, there is a mechanism for a disabled rider to get special-permitted access with an ebike. I learned from MBOSC in October that no one had applied for that access, yet.

    I went thru the process in early December and was granted a "Letter of Permission" from the forest manager. Its only valid for the time period of my temp. disability placard. I must carry the letter with me while in Demo, if a Ranger asks for it. No requirement of carrying placard or placard paperwork.

    So if you see me on this Trek Powerfly at Demo ...

    No Ebike sign at Demo Forest-i-hpg6jkw-xl.jpg

    We're legal & probably doing MBOSC trail maintenance again. Come HELP! :-)

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    thats pretty damn lame. how do they expect to tell the difference since riding a modern ebike is basically the same as riding a classic bike. what could be the possible basis or rationale for something like this? next thing you know they are going to ban classic bikes too

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    I saw 7 e-bikes in auburn on Saturday's ride.

    Pretty easy to spot with the big green blinking lights, massive downtubes, and unreal climbing speeds..

    All riders looked more the part of old-rich-lazy-dude, than wounded-warrior-project-guy-just-trying-to-get-outside-for-nature, but you never can judge a book by it's cover..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    thats pretty damn lame. how do they expect to tell the difference since riding a modern ebike is basically the same as riding a classic bike. what could be the possible basis or rationale for something like this? next thing you know they are going to ban classic bikes too
    What is a classic bike...like an Ordinary or something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    What is a classic bike...like an Ordinary or something?
    like a non modern ebike, you know like a vintage bike or that kind that xc people ride.

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    how would calfire even do enforcement? they dont patrol and they arent LEOs

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    how would calfire even do enforcement? they dont patrol and they arent LEOs
    They can do enforcement by closing the entire place to any mode of travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    They can do enforcement by closing the entire place to any mode of travel.
    thats what Im saying! they are going to ban classic bikes next! we should do something about this partial ban on mountain bikes.

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    I never noticed signs in Auburn until last year (State Recreational Area). Maybe it's just a budgeting thing. They have had it on the "to do" list for some time and they finally got around to installing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    thats what Im saying! they are going to ban classic bikes next! we should do something about this partial ban on mountain bikes.
    What we should do next is follow the rules and be respectful of the land managers there. You may want to read about the history and reasons Demonstration Forest exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    how would calfire even do enforcement? they dont patrol and they arent LEOs
    Actually some are. Those individuals are sworn peace officers and go through POST. They also carry firearms. Granted, most of their work would involve fire-related activities like arson, bombs, etc.. but they can be called to assist other law enforcement officers depending on need much like Game Wardens. I work with a lot of CalFire personnel and Wardens.

    So if they saw an e-bike with magnesium pedals smashing through a rock garden I would say they have probable cause! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    What we should do next is follow the rules and be respectful of the land managers there. You may want to read about the history and reasons Demonstration Forest exists.
    So much YES!

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    Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Not you motocatfish you are legit.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    What we should do next is follow the rules and be respectful of the land managers there. You may want to read about the history and reasons Demonstration Forest exists.
    so youre saying be respectful of being oppressed? if we let them take this step then they are coming for classic bikes next

  19. #19
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    mountain bikers and classic xc riders like the people on this forum are brothers in arms and we should stand by our own in their fight for access. park access is a slippery slope

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    thats what Im saying! they are going to ban classic bikes next! we should do something about this partial ban on mountain bikes.
    This is not a partial ban on mountain bikes. It's a posting of rules that already existed against motorized vehicles. Mountain bikers are aligning against EBIKES and that is a good thing for mountain biking trail access. They are different vehicles and should be treated as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    how would calfire even do enforcement? they dont patrol and they arent LEOs
    Hopefully, they'll use the same method they use for motos.

    "Hey, don't taze me, bro!"


    VV The sky is falling! The sky is falling! You're just jerkin' our chain, right?! Regardless, I don't really care what happens at Demo, because most of the people that ride there these days are old XC weenies/flow hoes, and they haven't built a new feature there in about 4 years (on Sawpit--and, yes, I helped).
    Last edited by dirtvert; 01-24-2018 at 09:17 PM.
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  22. #22
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    old xc weenies are being holier than thou and aligning against their mountain biking compatriots. we need to act now to save mountain biking. once they ban one kind of mountain bike what stops them from banning the rest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    I saw 7 e-bikes in auburn on Saturday's ride.

    All riders looked more the part of old-rich-lazy-dude
    And a smirk. They always have that smirk. Like "This cost more than your whole truck"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    old xc weenies are being holier than thou and aligning against their mountain biking compatriots. we need to act now to save mountain biking. once they ban one kind of mountain bike what stops them from banning the rest?
    You can really tell who failed out of troll school.

  25. #25
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    I'm just glad that we can ride there at all. Demo could use more trails, but I think Calfire has had their hands full this year, to say the least.
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  26. #26
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    There should be a test given to ride Demo. 3 Questions:

    1. What is the history of the Demonstration Forest.
    2. What is the partnership between MBOSC and Land Management trying to achieve?
    3. What will success in #2 mean for land managers and mountain bikers across the country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    thats pretty damn lame. how do they expect to tell the difference since riding a modern ebike is basically the same as riding a classic bike. what could be the possible basis or rationale for something like this? next thing you know they are going to ban classic bikes too
    Wha? How does this make any sense whatsoever? Color me lost.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Wha? How does this make any sense whatsoever? Color me lost.
    well a bike is basically a bike its just that some have more power than others. they all pedal and they all go downhill the same. riders of all kinds of bikes like to enjoy the forest and the trails and hang out and have a beer in the lot after a killer ride. its not "us and them" its all riders together. supporting a ban on our brothers just leads to a slippery slope of banning other kinds of bikes

  29. #29
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    Calfire CZU law enforcement officers (have jurisdiction in the Demo) Division Chief 1705, Prevention 1720( Battalion Chief), 2 Prevention Officers (Captains) They are all armed and wear a badge and can issue tickets if need be.

    Demo has always banned motorized vehicles. It doesn't matter if the motor is electric, gas, or diesel. if E bikes are allowed the electric motocross bike guys will want the same access. keep it human powered (unless you have the disabled exemption) or on horseback (where permitted)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    What we should do next is follow the rules and be respectful of the land managers there. You may want to read about the history and reasons Demonstration Forest exists.

    Absolutely! :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I'm just glad that we can ride there at all. Demo could use more trails, but I think Calfire has had their hands full this year, to say the least.

    I'm over-the-moon to finally ride Ridge & Flow. And to help MBOSC with trail work. Looking forward to Braille next time! :-)


    Catfish ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    Absolutely! :-)





    I'm over-the-moon to finally ride Ridge & Flow. And to help MBOSC with trail work. Looking forward to Braille next time! :-)


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    If everyone had Catfish's attitude, we would have many more beautiful trails to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Went on a Christmas day ride at the Demo Forest and noticed some No Ebikes allowed signs. I'm aware that they are not allowed there but never noticed the sign before. Was there an incident involving an ebike user recently? Have there been dozens of ebikes terrorizing the trails causing outrage but local riders? Or am I crazy and the signs were always there?
    The "no electric bikes" signs have been put up previously (there's a thread here about them) but they don't stay up very long. Certain Ebikers apparently think they're too good to follow regulations and tear them down. Or torn down by non-Ebikers wanting to give Ebikers a bad name. More likely the former IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    I saw 7 e-bikes in auburn on Saturday's ride.

    Pretty easy to spot with the big green blinking lights, massive downtubes, and unreal climbing speeds..

    All riders looked more the part of old-rich-lazy-dude, than wounded-warrior-project-guy-just-trying-to-get-outside-for-nature, but you never can judge a book by it's cover..
    And how did it effect your ride the rest of the day?
    Or others for that matter?
    Just wondering.



    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    And a smirk. They always have that smirk. Like "This cost more than your whole truck"
    That smirk is the sign someone is having more fun than you.

  34. #34
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    Saw 3 ebikes Sunday going down hihn mill

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    EBIKES are motorcycles. Don't they have their own forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    old xc weenies are being holier than thou and aligning against their mountain biking compatriots. we need to act now to save mountain biking. once they ban one kind of mountain bike what stops them from banning the rest?
    Exactly! 250 watts is dumb, I need at least 1000. I'm being discriminated against by my mountain biker brethren!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    how would calfire even do enforcement? they dont patrol and they arent LEOs
    CalFire does have its own sworn LEO's. There are usually 4 to 5 that cover several counties at once. Though there major concern is arson investigation, illegal marijuana grows and people trying to "homestead" out in the forest. My guess is Ebikes are very low on the radar if at all. Even if you were caught riding an Ebike, the penalty will be a few hundred bucks at best depending on the county and how they have the violation scheduled.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    EBIKES are motorcycles. Don't they have their own forum?
    motorcycles you have to pedal?

  39. #39
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    If ebikes where actually 250 watts I think they would more accepted, but there is no REAL regulation on them. The manufacturers have no problem lying about power and it sets the tone. Most places should be human powered where there is a high density of trail users. Regular mountain bikes already are on the edge of an acceptable speed differential.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    If ebikes where actually 250 watts I think they would more accepted, but there is no REAL regulation on them. The manufacturers have no problem lying about power and it sets the tone. Most places should be human powered where there is a high density of trail users. Regular mountain bikes already are on the edge of an acceptable speed differential.
    a newb on an ebike isnt any faster than menso or coldawg going uphill on a classic bike. and an ebike is possibly slower downhill. so your speed argument is invalid

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    a newb on an ebike isnt any faster than menso or coldawg going uphill on a classic bike. and an ebike is possibly slower downhill. so your speed argument is invalid
    It has a motor. this is the reason, not really that hard.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    a newb on an ebike isnt any faster than menso or coldawg going uphill on a classic bike. and an ebike is possibly slower downhill. so your speed argument is invalid
    A newb e-bike rider might just be a menso or coldawg; check Strava e-bike activities for times. At Coe we've got plenty of pro-level riders smoking up the hills on Levos etc; at nearly triple the average climbing speeds for normal people on normal bikes.

    Also the CA legal limit is 750 watts; Levos will be up there soon enough.

    E-bikes are fine in special places (maybe Coe?); just not everywhere.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    a newb on an ebike isnt any faster than menso or coldawg going uphill on a classic bike. and an ebike is possibly slower downhill. so your speed argument is invalid
    A newb hasn't put in the time or effort to learn the skills that will keep him and the other trail users safe. Menso has. Big difference.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    a newb on an ebike isnt any faster than menso or coldawg going uphill on a classic bike. and an ebike is possibly slower downhill. so your speed argument is invalid
    The clueless is strong in this one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    It has a motor. this is the reason, not really that hard.
    Unfortunately for many, it is that hard. For some reason, spinning pedals negates the motor part.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    spinning pedals makes it a bike. why is this so hard to understand

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    is a moped a bike?

    (of course, a harley-davidson bagger is also a bike)

    the problems are two fold:
    * e-bike manufacturers are selling them on high speed and high power. never mind reputation. (similar issue occurs w/mtb manufacturers selling them on people 'shredding' downhill quickly and kicking up dirt.)
    * motor simply isn't human power; maybe e-bikes and e-motos will expand the shrunken range of power bike usage, but it's gonna be a bumpy road.

  48. #48
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    LOL! I love how there is Haibike ads runnin right next to this silly thread.

  49. #49
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    i think e bikes have their place. Demo is not that place.

    there was this one guy that used to ride china camp on a haibike, and it's illegal there (no motorized vehicles). One day he rode past the ranger going really fast uphill (rangers walk the trails there sometimes), and that was the end of that, as it's been almost six months and i haven't seen him again. ranger was real pissed (he didn't have a trail pass either lol) so i got out of there before i saw the outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    spinning pedals makes it a bike. why is this so hard to understand
    ...and a motor makes it a motorcycle. not too difficult to understand as well.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by infotekt View Post
    ...and a motor makes it a motorcycle. not too difficult to understand as well.
    motorcycles dont have pedals. not too difficult to understand is it

  52. #52
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    instead of picking arbitrary and possibly difficult to enforce features of bikes such as pedals/no pedals, motor/no motor, few watts/all the watts perhaps it would be better to ask what experience the rider is having.

    does the rider feel like they are riding a bike? are they applying their own energy to go forward? are they getting a workout? are they accessing remote background or are they boosting big jumps on man made terrain? do they ride to parks from home and use the bike lane?

    another perspective could be what is the relative impact on other trail users since most of our spaces are shared. are ebikes significantly faster uphill or downhill than classic bikes? maybe in a few situations but since purely human powered bikes can be quite fast in both directions the answer is that its not really too different in that respect.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sosburn View Post
    i think e bikes have their place. Demo is not that place.
    demo isnt that place? we built a beautiful trail suitable for riders of all skill levels (flow trail) but the only way to access it is a 13 mile loop with 1500ft of climbing. thats a pretty big ride for a lot of people! maybe we should just ban everyone who isnt at least a cat 1 xc racer from the trails, how would you feel then?

    its pretty easy to say that X has a place and not offer any suitable places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    instead of picking arbitrary and possibly difficult to enforce features of bikes such as pedals/no pedals, motor/no motor, few watts/all the watts perhaps it would be better to ask what experience the rider is having.

    does the rider feel like they are riding a bike? are they applying their own energy to go forward? are they getting a workout? are they accessing remote background or are they boosting big jumps on man made terrain? do they ride to parks from home and use the bike lane?

    another perspective could be what is the relative impact on other trail users since most of our spaces are shared. are ebikes significantly faster uphill or downhill than classic bikes? maybe in a few situations but since purely human powered bikes can be quite fast in both directions the answer is that its not really too different in that respect.
    You don't think they're faster uphill?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bic...-cyclist%3famp

    There. A an average person in this article (sustain 200 Watts) plus an e bike (low end, 250 Watts) puts out 50 Watts more then a pro at 400. That's 16% more power in the most forgiving example possible.

    You can have your opinion, but don't spout drivel. You're not making any friends or convincing anyone here with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    motorcycles dont have pedals. not too difficult to understand is it
    I'm betting you have to put a rock in the bottom of your water bowl so you don't drown.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    You don't think they're faster uphill?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bic...-cyclist%3famp

    There. A an average person in this article (sustain 200 Watts) plus an e bike (low end, 250 Watts) puts out 50 Watts more then a pro at 400. That's 16% more power in the most forgiving example possible.

    You can have your opinion, but don't spout drivel. You're not making any friends or convincing anyone here with it.
    did you consider the relative weight in this example? did you consider if a 16% difference (without taking weight into account) is noticeable or significant to another trail user that is being passed?

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    Love the holidays spirit

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    did you consider the relative weight in this example? did you consider if a 16% difference (without taking weight into account) is noticeable or significant to another trail user that is being passed?
    An e-bike gets 12.5% more power. They add maybe 20 pounds? Pro rides on the tour weigh about 125 lbs. 12.5% of 125 is ~16. So any Joe has about the P/W if a pro peloton Rider. For the same Rider weight.

    You also claim they're not faster going down, but if you add weight on a downhill you do go faster.

    So that is inaccurate as well.

    This is all assuming they are on the 250W E bikes.

    I'll let you do the math for a 500W one.



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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Love the holidays spirit

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    It's strong in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  60. #60
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    ^ E-bikes bring out the best in all of us!
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    Let's not forget that hacking an e-bike to make it go faster is as easy as...



    LMGTFY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    This is not a partial ban on mountain bikes. It's a posting of rules that already existed against motorized vehicles. Mountain bikers are aligning against EBIKES and that is a good thing for mountain biking trail access. They are different vehicles and should be treated as such.

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    Nope. Not all MTBs are "aligning" agains e-bikes. I think the hype is absolutely idiotic. And a pedal-assist e-bike has nothing to do with access except increasing mtb access for more people. There is a "spirit" of the "motorized vehicle" that doesn't apply to pedal assist e-bikes and I really hate it when people bring that up. It makes no sense.

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    CAL FIRE law enforcement is primarily to enforce the Forest Practice rules. Second is fire. Third is general public safety. Giving a hoot about whether someone is riding a pedal assist bike probably doesn't make the list, but if it is on there, it is way down at the bottom.

    Also - I doubt the signs in DEMO were put there by CAL FIRE staff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post

    You also claim they're not faster going down, but if you add weight on a downhill you do go faster.

    So that is inaccurate as well.


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    If that were true, DH pros would be riding tanks, however they all have lightweight carbon rigs. A lighter bike goes faster down because it's easier to maneuver and accelerate out of turns.

    Carry on...


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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    If that were true, DH pros would be riding tanks, however they all have lightweight carbon rigs. A lighter bike goes faster down because it's easier to maneuver and accelerate out of turns.

    Carry on...


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    Exactly true. A heavy e bike will go faster until you account for the obstacles. So they'll require more skill and more braking to get down to a manageable speed.

    I would guess this is a good reason they're not allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Exactly true. A heavy e bike will go faster until you account for the obstacles. So they'll require more skill and more braking to get down to a manageable speed.

    I would guess this is a good reason they're not allowed.

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    Gravity equals 9.8 m/s2 regardless of weight. Heavier bikes don't go down faster, but they carry more energy.

    People who have tried them, like Francis, say they downhill slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klarity View Post
    Also - I doubt the signs in DEMO were put there by CAL FIRE staff.
    Why not? Someone on this thread has talked to them about e-bikes. They posted about it on Facebook too.

    https://www.facebook.com/CALFIRESoqu...903458/?type=3

    I don't know if they monitor this thread, but some land managers do read mtbr.

    Demo may actually be a good place for e-mtb, as most trails are (in practice but not rules) bike primary, directional, and the climbs are on roads (not necessary but helpful in this case). But if people start using them to climb the downhill-primary singletrack... that will cause use conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    demo isnt that place? we built a beautiful trail suitable for riders of all skill levels (flow trail) but the only way to access it is a 13 mile loop with 1500ft of climbing. thats a pretty big ride for a lot of people! maybe we should just ban everyone who isnt at least a cat 1 xc racer from the trails, how would you feel then?

    its pretty easy to say that X has a place and not offer any suitable places.
    I would be sad if they did that, but that would never happen. There's no reason for that to happen, but there is a reason for e bikes being banned many places. people work hard to maintain those trails at demo, and overly heavy bikes with motors can be pretty destructive, especially on smooth flow trails.

    It is easy to say that something has a place, but i didn't feel like it was necessary to offer any suitable places, since i don't own an e bike and don't know of any e bike specific areas. I never said that they weren't fun; i've ridden one at santa teresa and enjoyed it, but i wouldn't buy one living in the bay area. Maybe shuttling northstar after it's closed for the season and there isn't snow yet, or some other big mountain adventure ride during the summer, where you could do like a 100mile out and back.
    the flow trail at demo isn't really that hard to get to, if you're really having trouble on the climb just get a GX eagle groupset or a 11-46 shimano cassette, or just walk the steep bits. those trails were built to take advantage of a good altitude change, whatever happened to "earning your turns"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Gravity equals 9.8 m/s2 regardless of weight. Heavier bikes don't go down faster, but they carry more energy.

    People who have tried them, like Francis, say they downhill slower.

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    You're right.

    It does still take more brake, traction, or skill to slow down.

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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Gravity equals 9.8 m/s2 regardless of weight. Heavier bikes don't go down faster, but they carry more energy.

    People who have tried them, like Francis, say they downhill slower.

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    I rode a Levo Kenevo on a super rocky trail, and then rode that same trail on a yeti sb5.5. despite the yeti having about 30mm less rear suspension, i made it down about 2 minutes faster. the extra weight didn't make the bike descend any faster, it just made it more difficult to steer and negotiate obstacles with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    You're right.

    It does still take more brake, traction, or skill to slow down.

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    I would think so too. I like to see ebikes legal for folks with disability though.

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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    instead of picking arbitrary and possibly difficult to enforce features of bikes such as pedals/no pedals, motor/no motor, few watts/all the watts...
    How is having a motor or not having a motor arbitrary? It's as clear cut as you can get. There is literally not a single qualifier that you listed that is as clear cut as motor/no motor.

    There very well may be valid points to tackle in this debate, but the "it's not really a motor" one isn't going to get you anywhere.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    How is having a motor or not having a motor arbitrary? It's as clear cut as you can get. There is literally not a single qualifier that you listed that is as clear cut as motor/no motor.

    There very well may be valid points to tackle in this debate, but the "it's not really a motor" one isn't going to get you anywhere.
    must be nice to live in a world where everything is so black and white. however you completely ignored the rider perception argument and the pedals/no pedals argument. bikes have pedals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    must be nice to live in a world where everything is so black and white. however you completely ignored the rider perception argument and the pedals/no pedals argument. bikes have pedals.
    No, I didn't ignore the perception argument. I stated that it's not anywhere near as clear cut as motor/no motor. The perception argument additionally is entirely meaningless in the eyes of regulations, which by necessity need to have a discrete definition. Your perception argument is a rhetorical dead end.

    Much of the world is not black and white. Motor vs no motor is about as close as you can get to a clear-cut line. You can argue all day about stated power outputs, color-coded stickers, and twist throttles vs pedal actuation; in the end, you are still splitting hairs about motorization.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    must be nice to live in a world where everything is so black and white. however you completely ignored the rider perception argument and the pedals/no pedals argument. bikes have pedals.
    The argument is not about pedals versus no pedals, it's about motorized versus non-motorized vehicles. Motorized vehicles are not allowed in Demonstration Forest without permission. This rule should be respected, and if you ride a motorized vehicle there you should have permission to do so. Flagrantly breaking the rules there puts everyone at risk of losing the privilege of riding there, and much worse, sends a message to other land managers who are using Demo as a model for their own land management operations, that mountain bike access is not worth the management resources required to support mountain biking.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    motorcycles dont have pedals. not too difficult to understand is it
    You are so wrong on so many levels.

    Almost all motorcycles started as mopeds; so under-powered that they wouldn't climb hills unless the rider assisted by pedaling.

    This example is 110 years old; history is trying to repeat itself with e-bikes:

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    ^^ An American Picker wet dream!

    I wonder what the rider perception is of the moto dudes on Cussacks...

    Btw, zorg, thanks for pointing out that mass alone does not increase downhill speed. It's funny how that idea persists 400+ years after Galileo dropped balls off of the Poorly Designed Tower of Pisa.

    I'm waiting for pvd to settle this e-bike debate once and for all.
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  78. #78
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    Is Rox an intentional troll, or does he/she actually believe the shit that spews from the keyboard?
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    How is having a motor or not having a motor arbitrary? It's as clear cut as you can get. There is literally not a single qualifier that you listed that is as clear cut as motor/no motor.

    There very well may be valid points to tackle in this debate, but the "it's not really a motor" one isn't going to get you anywhere.
    Well said. EBIKES are banned motorized vehicles. It's as clear cut as night and day. If you want moto access, join the dirt bike lobby.

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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    The argument is not about pedals versus no pedals, it's about motorized versus non-motorized vehicles. Motorized vehicles are not allowed in Demonstration Forest without permission. This rule should be respected, and if you ride a motorized vehicle there you should have permission to do so. Flagrantly breaking the rules there puts everyone at risk of losing the privilege of riding there, and much worse, sends a message to other land managers who are using Demo as a model for their own land management operations, that mountain bike access is not worth the management resources required to support mountain biking.
    Agree. And precisely why we need to be sure to highlight the stark contrast between motor bikes and bicycles in MTB advocacy. Getting lumped together is a disaster and could occur with some less knowledgeable land managers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    What is a classic bike...like an Ordinary or something?
    modern ebike = motorcycle
    classic bike = bicycle

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motosc View Post
    modern ebike = motorcycle
    classic bike = bicycle
    modern ebike is like lift assist skiing
    classic bike is like cross country skiing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motosc View Post
    modern ebike = motorcycle
    classic bike = bicycle
    Agree and as a VRC bike rider I was baffled by the comparison between ebikes and classic (vintage) bikes, I mean my 89' brazed Rock Lobster or rigid Phoenix SE are the definition of a mountain bike or at least what they were early on. Last quick question, I have never ridden an ebike, but is it possible to skid out on them uphill or out of turns if you "punch" the motor, like a motorcycle? The added weight and potential to do this could increase rutting of trails, but again I've never tried one so maybe they have something to limit the amount of acceleration. Cheers all and for those lucky enough to be able too, pedal on!

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    WOW! Only 19 more festive definition disagreements and someone gets socks, right? :-)

    GO eWhiners GO!!! ;-)

    Teasingly,

    Catfish ...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    modern ebike is like lift assist skiing
    classic bike is like cross country skiing
    Uh, no not at all.

    Bicycles that you pedal are allowed anywhere bicycles have been permitted to go.

    ebikes, bicycles with electric motors are allowed on OHV roads and trails such as Downieville where all are allowed to ride. They are not allowed to go on bicycle trails in State Parks or otherwise because they are not bicycles, they are Motor-cycles or Mopeds or whatever you want to call them.

    We have been fighting for access for Bicycles for the last 35+ years, not for Motorcycles. The only outcome from people insisting they can ride their motorized bicycles on Bicycle only trails is going to be the limited access we have being taken away, plain and simple.

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    Food for thought - why does it matter if it is E powered or gas powered? Both are motorcycles and it is really not even debatable how lightly one tiptoes down the green path of feel good reasons. Would the story/debate change if powered = any source of power?

    If you allow EBIKEs you must allow any non human powered bike - no? Could even be fun to someday rip uphill on Braille - NOT!

    Carry on.


    Carry on.

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    How to get clicks: Mention ebikes in thread title.

    How to get chicks: Don't mention ebikes?
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    must be nice to live in a world where everything is so black and white. however you completely ignored the rider perception argument and the pedals/no pedals argument. bikes have pedals.
    and bikes with pedals and motors are mopeds, or motorized bicycles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motosc View Post
    and bikes with pedals and motors are mopeds, or motorized bicycles.
    ...and we've come full circle. This thread can be closed. Thanks for playin all!
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Is Rox an intentional troll, or does he/she actually believe the shit that spews from the keyboard?
    He/she has apparently been stewing about ebikes for years so itís the latter.

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    Im pretty sure most of the laws are written as motorized vehicles which ebikes are part of. Pedals or not.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    ...and we've come full circle. This thread can be closed. Thanks for playin all!
    This is NorCal! They can be called anything we want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovian View Post
    Im pretty sure most of the laws are written as motorized vehicles which ebikes are part of. Pedals or not.
    That's part of the problem they are not considered motorized in some parts of the USA and laws change from state to state. Not that the manufactures adhere to any of the laws other than putting stickers on them.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

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    So which ebike should I get to shred the SDF gnar?

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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    So which ebike should I get to shred the SDF gnar?

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    Just cut to the chase.....

    No Ebike sign at Demo Forest-joakim_ewc-2016-rnd-5_1619_1200.jpg

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Just cut to the chase.....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's a motorcycle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That's a motorcycle!

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    I'm genuinely curious, would this MX bike be fun at Demo? The turns are pretty tight, this seems like it might be a lot of work to get through the flow trail. But I could be completely wrong.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That's a motorcycle!

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    Wouldn't it technically be an enginecycle as it uses combustion, and an electric bike would be a motorcycle as it uses electricity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    I'm genuinely curious, would this MX bike be fun at Demo? The turns are pretty tight, this seems like it might be a lot of work to get through the flow trail. But I could be completely wrong.
    Ah, yeah it would be a lot of fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Ah, yeah it would be a lot of fun.
    Really? You can ride a full size MX bike and navigate the turns on the flow trail without and issues? If your a pro rider MX rider probably, but I can't imagine an average MX rider would have fun on the flow trail. The turns are too tight. I've only ridden MX a few times and switch backs and super tight turns are a pain in the ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    WOW! Only 19 more festive definition disagreements and someone gets socks, right? :-)

    GO eWhiners GO!!! ;-)

    Teasingly,

    Catfish ...
    The socks and ROUSs don't really exist.

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