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  1. #201
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    Why did my posts get deleted? That's weird.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Why did my posts get deleted? That's weird.
    The moderator 50k and others thought you were talking about renting ebikes to ride at Demo.

    I know thatís not what you meant but it is in the wrong thread. See title.

    Please start a new thread I have info on rentals and legal places to ride
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    The moderator 50k and others thought you were talking about renting ebikes to ride at Demo.

    I know thatís not what you meant but it is in the wrong thread. See title.

    Please start a new thread I have info on rentals and legal places to ride
    That's specifically what he was talking about.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  4. #204
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    I thought this had taken a bit of a Bizzarro World turn. "Where can I rent an e-bike to ride where e-bikes are prohibited?"
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  5. #205
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    No Ebike sign at Demo Forest

    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    That's specifically what he was talking about.
    You are correct, I missed that. Ďdemo at demoí in original post

    No go Gemini2k05. Wilder and Santa Clara County parks are ok.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    I thought this had taken a bit of a Bizzarro World turn. "Where can I rent an e-bike to ride where e-bikes are prohibited?"
    Wasn't there a thread "Is poaching a legitimate form of mountain biking?"? Extra cred for poaching at Demo. Kind of like escaping from Alcatraz (back in the day).
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    Many folks have complained about ebikes seen out there, so I suspect the signs are a new reminder to the poachers. The signs were not there on Dec. 13th.


    Catfish ...
    I wonder if they were complaining because they observed E-bikes causing trail damage... or just because they knew they weren't allowed and felt they should be bounced out of there for that reason only?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregd72 View Post
    I wonder if they were complaining because they observed E-bikes causing trail damage... or just because they knew they weren't allowed and felt they should be bounced out of there for that reason only?
    I'm looking forward to my ebike review so I can test out the trail damage idea myself on my own trails. I'm on the fence in that regard but I love riding ebikes so this will be a fun review/test!

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    The moderator 50k and others thought you were talking about renting ebikes to ride at Demo.

    I know thatís not what you meant but it is in the wrong thread. See title.

    Please start a new thread I have info on rentals and legal places to ride
    I've been promoted from 5k to 50k! Yep, last I checked you're not supposed to ride ebikes at Demo. So best not to discuss plans to do so here.

  10. #210
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    ^^^Bikes arenít allowed on the UCSC trail system either...doesnít stop anyone from talking about it, naming trails, posting photos...you guys need to make up your minds. Discuss illegal activity on the forum, or not???

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    There is also the fact that literally any argument a mountain biker makes against eMTBs is the EXACT SAME argument that any other trail user (hiker / horse) has against an MTB.

    It really really seems like a case of cut off your nose to spite your face. Mountain bikers are faster than hikers, cause more trail damage (skidding / roosting berms / etc / etc), scare other users by moving too fast in unexpected areas, and generally just being assholes to slower people / other user groups (taking the line, forcing right of way in situations it makes more sense to yield etc).

    I know not all mtbs are like that but honestly that's the perception issue we deal with - and I usually see at least one rider who is like that out on the trails and "ruins" it for the rest of us.

    I still can't get over the hypocrisy of MTBs using the exact same rational to keep eMTBs off trails that have been used for decades against us.

    Sidenote: I don't really care about eBikes except when they crowd me when I am climbing. I am a little concerned that a lot of trails have been built with a fitness barrier in mind that help keep newbs from getting in too far over their heads (but most of those are undocumented trails anyway). And I don't think battery tech is good enough yet to make going 15mph+ uphill a reasonable concern in most cases. Not too mention most legal places we ride have 5-15mph speed limits that we all ignore. And hikers don't care if you are going 25 mph uphill or downhill you are still going too fast for them and startled them off the trail.

    This isn't a "we should all just get along post." It's really more of a come up with a better argument that doesn't logically lead to "you're right, mtbs share the same characteristics as eMTbs, so we should ban all bikes."

    I fully support the idea that "no motorized vehicles" includes eBikes and they should not be in parks (unless the land manager has determined otherwise) that state that.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    ^^^Bikes arenít allowed on the UCSC trail system either...doesnít stop anyone from talking about it, naming trails, posting photos...you guys need to make up your minds. Discuss illegal activity on the forum, or not???
    I want to point out that I never speed or ride illegal trails.
    On the other hand, I attend East Bay Regional Park board meetings, do trail work and try to be a trail ambassador.

    Where do we draw the line and what size motor make a bike not human powered. I wish the answer was clear cut and easy for everyone to agree on. Motor = not human powered. Access needs to be fair and reasonable, but unfortunately anti bikers will use any means necessary to block us.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    There is also the fact that literally any argument a mountain biker makes against eMTBs is the EXACT SAME argument that any other trail user (hiker / horse) has against an MTB.

    Literally? I hate to dredge up the dreaded "M" word but hikers and horsie lovers haven't used that one against us mountain bikers.
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  14. #214
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    I would argue - they fall under "mechanical transport" and are basically used / equated as the same - At least by the people who are the most vocal against MTBs. Just look at the current controversy of "Do bikes belong in the Wilderness"

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    You must be a lawyer. Same world, different universe.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    I would argue - they fall under "mechanical transport" and are basically used / equated as the same - At least by the people who are the most vocal against MTBs. Just look at the current controversy of "Do bikes belong in the Wilderness"
    Yeah, that was and still is a ridiculous non-sequitur.

    It's motor versus non-motor, period. It really is that simple
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    Would you like me to change literally to figuratively and would that allow you to read passed the reference to "motorized" and focus on the meat of the content.

    I. E. We are using the same arguments against eMTBs that the Sierra club has used against us. The only difference is the spelling of the M word.

    But remove that word, and focus on the speed, damage, etc comments.

    Or get mired down in minutia and think that because you picked a part one single word (that wasn't even used in my original post) it invalidates the entire argument.

    It still remains that we are using the same language the Sierra club has used to deny MTBs access to deny eMTBs.

    Note: I still agree with the motorized versus non-motorized argument and think it's so far the best one. Speed, trail damage, noise etc are all the same arguments against MTBs.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    I would argue - they fall under "mechanical transport" and are basically used / equated as the same - At least by the people who are the most vocal against MTBs. Just look at the current controversy of "Do bikes belong in the Wilderness"
    You can argue that all day long, but the fact is they have a motor. That is the fact the hiker/horse people use. The fact that they look and act very much like a real bike is the problem for us.

    My problem with them is that I don't want to worry about a rider coming up a single track trail at 10-12mph when bikes with out motors are climbing 4-6mph. I don't want to have to slow way down on my descents for an ebiker.

    Fireroads, one way trails, sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I don't want to have to slow way down on my descents for an ebiker.
    and I don't want to have to slow down my descents for a hiker. I still have to though....

    Agree that them looking like MTBs is a problem, any conflict an eMTB has with another trail user will be viewed as a MTB conflict. Not a motorized vehicle conflict.

    Solution is just MTB specific trails. I know the Bay area is super supportive of this idea

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    Lotsa folks seem to have difficulties with change. Particularly ebikes being wedged into hike, horse, bike, & moto. Society, culture, transportation, mtbing, climate, etc... Everything is changing.

    Adapting to new adventures without anger & hate should be a goal. Everyday.

    Learn where the cheese is hiding ;-)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F)

    I found my cheese on the first right berm of Demo Flow segment 4. Its mine.

    Mine, mine, mine, mine, MINE!!! ;-)


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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    Solution is just MTB specific trails. I know the Bay area is super supportive of this idea


    Alright, something I can agree with!
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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    and I don't want to have to slow down my descents for a hiker. I still have to though....

    Agree that them looking like MTBs is a problem, any conflict an eMTB has with another trail user will be viewed as a MTB conflict. Not a motorized vehicle conflict.

    Solution is just MTB specific trails. I know the Bay area is super supportive of this idea
    I don't care about stopping for hikers.
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  23. #223
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    To the best of my knowledge, talking to some key players, the reason why e-bikes are not allowed in Demo is: they don't want to take on additional trail users right now.

    Their main job is forest management and fire control and that is on the front page right now. The rescue missions at Demo Forest are fairly regular and have increased since the Flow trail. Unlike Midpen though, they are not trail police and don't issue tickets to cyclists in the 25 years I've ridden there.

    They have these folks too regularly doing rave parties and locals trashing the forest.

    I believe this is the same reason why there is no Saw Pit replacement right now. That will bring a lot of new users to Demo.

    Angela, the forest manager was/is the spokesperson for Calfire and was always on TV briefing the media and the public about the status of local fires which were becoming more frequent. So, she is busy.

    And these new events in the Napa Fire and Paradise fire have brought an ominous threat to Demo and the whole Santa Cruz mountains area. What if the whole area gets torched??? We didn't think it was possible but it may be. Get a couple dry winters, a hot day and a very strong wind. And there's only one little escape path... highway 17.

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  24. #224
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    On a better note, first big dig day in a while is here: https://www.facebook.com/events/591150274675155/
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  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post

    My problem with them is that I don't want to worry about a rider coming up a single track trail at 10-12mph when bikes with out motors are climbing 4-6mph. I don't want to have to slow way down on my descents for an ebiker.

    Fireroads, one way trails, sure.
    Wow, unreal narcissism

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post

    Where do we draw the line and what size motor make a bike not human powered. I wish the answer was clear cut and easy for everyone to agree on. Motor = not human powered..
    seems like you asked a question and then immediately answered it! lol

    agreed. motor=motorcycle

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Wow, unreal narcissism
    I am fine with them on fire roads and one way trails, old dudes and ADA.

    Why should I have to slow down for a guy that just wants to use a motor so it's easier for him?
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  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I am fine with them on fire roads and one way trails, old dudes and ADA.

    Why should I have to slow down for a guy that just wants to use a motor so it's easier for him?
    Why do you think you will need to slow down for an e-bike? I ride with a guy who is fast as hell on his e-bike...heís big and aggressive too, itís fun trying to pass him.

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    Because an ebike is able to ascend quicker so if you descend at your same pace you won't have the same amount of time to react to avoid a collision.

    So now you have to descend slower in constant fear of a silent bike whizzing up the trail at 15mph, while you descend at 5mph and are constantly on edge and ready to dive into the bushes to avoid the scary fast uphill ebike.

    Downieville must be hell on earth. There are really fast motorcycles going up those trails.

    At least that's my guess...

    Edit:fixed spelling errors
    Last edited by cassieno; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:39 PM.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    Because an ebike is able to ascend quicker so if you descend at your same pace you won't babe the same amount of time to react to avoid a collision.

    So now you have to descend slower in constant feet of a silent bike whizzing up the trail at 15mph, while you descend at 5mph and are constantly on edge and ready to dive into the bushes to avoid the scary fast uphill ebike.

    Downieville must be hell on earth. There are really fast motorcycles going up those trails.

    At least that's my guess...
    Why would I change the way I ride? E-bikes are just another obstacle...just like bikes, motorcycles, hikers, animals, cars...As far as D-Ville goes, Iíve never had an issue there in the 21 years Iíve been riding there...slow MTBers are more of the issue. I think youíre overthinking it?

  31. #231
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    I am just trying to guess SFgiantsfan thought process. I agree with you.

    I forgot the /s tag.

    I read something recent that had this line "you know what a lot of great mtb destinations have in common? Dirt bikes."

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    I read something recent that had this line "you know what a lot of great mtb destinations have in common? Dirt bikes."
    Where are you referring too?

    I donít ride trails that motos are allowed on and have yet to run out of trails to ride.

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    I think it was an article just talking about popular mtb destinations - like downieville.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    Because an ebike is able to ascend quicker so if you descend at your same pace you won't babe the same amount of time to react to avoid a collision.

    So now you have to descend slower in constant feet of a silent bike whizzing up the trail at 15mph, while you descend at 5mph and are constantly on edge and ready to dive into the bushes to avoid the scary fast uphill ebike.

    Downieville must be hell on earth. There are really fast motorcycles going up those trails.

    At least that's my guess...
    Yes, that's it.
    I am talking trails in Marin and Sonoma county. Not Dville. Those trails are made for dirt bikes. It is all about closing speed, why do I have to bust my ass uphill then on the descents worry about some one hauling ass uphill because he bought as motor bike. Its not a scay fast uphill ebike Jake, its an ebike going uphill twice as fast as a regular bike.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Yes, that's it.
    I am talking trails in Marin and Sonoma county. Not Dville. Those trails are made for dirt bikes. It is all about closing speed, why do I have to bust my ass uphill then on the descents worry about some one hauling ass uphill because he bought as motor bike. Its not a scay fast uphill ebike Jake, its an ebike going uphill twice as fast as a regular bike.
    Iím in Marin too...there arenít many legal trails worth descending...most of the trails I ride are optional; e-bikes arenít going to be ascending those trails. Itís not really an issue.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Yes, that's it.
    I am talking trails in Marin and Sonoma county. Not Dville. Those trails are made for dirt bikes. It is all about closing speed, why do I have to bust my ass uphill then on the descents worry about some one hauling ass uphill because he bought as motor bike. Its not a scay fast uphill ebike Jake, its an ebike going uphill twice as fast as a regular bike.
    Wow it continues. 😳.

  37. #237
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    Ba-ba-ba-bump

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Yes, that's it.
    I am talking trails in Marin and Sonoma county. Not Dville. Those trails are made for dirt bikes. It is all about closing speed, why do I have to bust my ass uphill then on the descents worry about some one hauling ass uphill because he bought as motor bike. Its not a scay fast uphill ebike Jake, its an ebike going uphill twice as fast as a regular bike.
    So you mean to say a slow electric motorcycle. 🤣

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