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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Really? You can ride a full size MX bike and navigate the turns on the flow trail without and issues? If your a pro rider MX rider probably, but I can't imagine an average MX rider would have fun on the flow trail. The turns are too tight. I've only ridden MX a few times and switch backs and super tight turns are a pain in the ass.
    I don't think there would be any problem navigating the terrain on an MX bike on any trail at Demo. I would never recommend doing so however!

  2. #102
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    And so it begins. I called this out many times on ebike posts on FB and many other pages. It's starts with the lower powered ebikes. Now we have 6k watt ebikes, and who is going to enforce them on trails? 6k watts with 3 inch tires on our favorite single tracks. This is going to end up happening whether we like it or not now that the cat is out of the bag.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWiLRiDe View Post
    And so it begins. I called this out many times on ebike posts on FB and many other pages. It's starts with the lower powered ebikes. Now we have 6k watt ebikes, and who is going to enforce them on trails? 6k watts with 3 inch tires on our favorite single tracks. This is going to end up happening whether we like it or not now that the cat is out of the bag.
    In six months the rascals will be roosting the single track with their 100KW motorcycles. And nobody will be able to figure it out because they will look like regular bikes!!

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  4. #104
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    CAUTION: More thread drift below ... ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Really? You can ride a full size MX bike and navigate the turns on the flow trail without and issues? If your a pro rider MX rider probably, but I can't imagine an average MX rider would have fun on the flow trail. The turns are too tight. I've only ridden MX a few times and switch backs and super tight turns are a pain in the ass.

    Too tight?!? Hahahahaha! Demo Flow is an easy trail with only moderate turns. It would be STUPID-FUN on a dirtbike going up & down it! :-)

    Here is how dirtbike riders with skills handle Real(tm) tight turns or switchbacks.



    Even us old farts use this technique. With a bad left knee it takes 2-3 pivots for me to complete the turn, but it works!

    I do agree though that the average 18yo MX _rider_ may never learn these enduro techniques.


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    The socks and ROUSs don't really exist.
    Oh-NOOOooo! That means fc is saving all the mtbr ad revenue for the college funds, huh? ;-)

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  5. #105
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    Sorry donít understand the issue. Are pedal assist bikes included in the ban? I have no problem with pedal assist bikes at Demo. I agree that throttle type e-bikes, while probably super fun, are probably not appropriate for Demo. I donít have a pedal assist bike but I donít think our reaction should be to ban them or call those riders lazy. If it can help bring people to the sport or extend our riding years, I think we should embrace it.

    Also as weíve seen with bans like MTB in wilderness areas, once in place, these things are really hard to undo.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashWorship View Post
    Sorry donít understand the issue. Are pedal assist bikes included in the ban? I have no problem with pedal assist bikes at Demo. I agree that throttle type e-bikes, while probably super fun, are probably not appropriate for Demo. I donít have a pedal assist bike but I donít think our reaction should be to ban them or call those riders lazy. If it can help bring people to the sport or extend our riding years, I think we should embrace it.

    Also as weíve seen with bans like MTB in wilderness areas, once in place, these things are really hard to undo.
    They have motors. We don't sport fish with dynamite or gill nets. Lines defining a sport need to established. Pretty easy to define mountain biking as 100% human powered (until gravity takes over!)

    Class 1 (PAS) and Class 2 (throttle) E-bikes in CA have the same 750 watt max limit. When they pass you on a max effort climb (both pedaling as hard as they can) you won't be able to tell them apart.

    E-biking is simply a different sport, we don't need them clogging up Demo on busy weekends. Or ever.
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  7. #107
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    I have a pedal assist bike, it's the Eagle 10-50 cassette with a 30 in the front, LOL!
    Last edited by 5k bike 50cent legs; 12-30-2017 at 03:54 PM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    They have motors. We don't sport fish with dynamite or gill nets. Lines defining a sport need to established. Pretty easy to define mountain biking as 100% human powered (until gravity takes over!)

    Class 1 (PAS) and Class 2 (throttle) E-bikes in CA have the same 750 watt max limit. When they pass you on a max effort climb (both pedaling as hard as they can) you won't be able to tell them apart.

    E-biking is simply a different sport, we don't need them clogging up Demo on busy weekends. Or ever.
    I ride dirt bikes. I rode my 38kW SX-350F yesterday and I can tell you with certainty that a pedal assisted bicycle at 750W (~1HP) is not even comparable to my daughters 50cc PW50. The distinction between pedal assist and throttle is important since the power in a pedal assisted bike is proportional to the power put into the thing by the human. Iíve ridden them and itís enough to provide assistance but thatís about it. Your concerns of ďclogging up the trailsĒ are overblown and donít match up with reality and really sound like elitist, emotional arguments. Demo is public land and we all have a right to be on our public lands. We ought to tread lightly when we talk about restrictions to how people use public lands particularly when we lack any credible evidence to support restrictions.

    Bans are a bad way to go when the ban is imposed out of ignorance and for emotional reasons by a few voices that simply shout the loudest. Bans are also very difficult to reverse. Itíd be better to study and observe what happens. This allows us to have a reasoned discussion and collect data to make a decision that best balances everyoneís use concerns. Iíve followed these threads on here claiming a pedal assisted bike is a motorcycle and Iíve seen plenty of pedal assisted bikes at Demo and elsewhere. But Iíve yet to see any problems with pedal assisted bikes that are claimed by yourself and others in those threads.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashWorship View Post
    Sorry donít understand the issue. Are pedal assist bikes included in the ban?.
    There are no motorized vehicles allowed. EBIKES are motorized vehicles and thus are no allowed. Pretty simple

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashWorship View Post
    Itíd be better to study and observe what happens. This allows us to have a reasoned discussion and collect data to make a decision that best balances everyoneís use concerns.
    I've been studying the effect of Levos/etc. at Coe for 2 years now (uniformed volunteer; 760 hours of trail maintenance last year). Some days every other bike is an e-bike. If you don't know, Specialized has been using Coe for bike testing for many years. They'll bring out 20~30 e-bikes for this group or that group to test ride. Coe's a big place and for the time being e-bikes haven't yet worn out their welcome. Seen it with my own eyes, e-bikers tend to skid more going DH that normal bikes. Uphill they startle other users not used to the 2x closing speed.

    Demo is tiny by comparison; imagine what it would be like with double or triple the traffic; e-bikes slowing up the party going downhill; "excuse me coming through" on the climbs back up.

    And BTW yes I ride motos, have 1 legal pedelec and a bunch not-so legal.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    There are no motorized vehicles allowed. EBIKES are motorized vehicles and thus are no allowed. Pretty simple

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    Thanks for reminding me why I avoid MTBR. Enjoy your echo chamber.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashWorship View Post
    Thanks for reminding me why I avoid MTBR. Enjoy your echo chamber.
    Nice one yo!
    So true though.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    They have motors. We don't sport fish with dynamite or gill nets. Lines defining a sport need to established. Pretty easy to define mountain biking as 100% human powered (until gravity takes over!)

    Class 1 (PAS) and Class 2 (throttle) E-bikes in CA have the same 750 watt max limit. When they pass you on a max effort climb (both pedaling as hard as they can) you won't be able to tell them apart.

    E-biking is simply a different sport, we don't need them clogging up Demo on busy weekends. Or ever.
    Clogging is non sense. Climbing is all on fire road. DH speed should be the same. Being uni directional, Demo can accommodate abton of riders.

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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashWorship View Post
    Thanks for reminding me why I avoid MTBR. Enjoy your echo chamber.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Nice one yo!
    So true though.
    Mtbr will be heartbroken if EBIKERS stop coming here to crusade. HEARTBROKEN!

    Also what is an echo chamber?



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    Last edited by DriverB; 12-31-2017 at 10:58 AM.
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  15. #115
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    My motorcycles are wrist assist. There is little or no assist from the motor if I don't twist my wrist. The motor only assists my wrist effort. If I stop twisting my wrist, there is no assist. The motor doesn't help unless I continually twist my wrist. If I stop twisting my wrist, no assist happens.

    Riding an ebike is like having a wrist assist mechanism in the bottom bracket. Same function really, different location though.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    My motorcycles are wrist assist. There is little or no assist from the motor if I don't twist my wrist. The motor only assists my wrist effort. If I stop twisting my wrist, there is no assist. The motor doesn't help unless I continually twist my wrist. If I stop twisting my wrist, no assist happens.

    Riding an ebike is like having a wrist assist mechanism in the bottom bracket. Same function really, different location though.
    Braaaap, braaaap.....braaaaaap......

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  17. #117
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    To me, to ban e-bikes is lame. It is not like they are gonna be roosting like a motocross bike. The impact of an ebike on trails is probably identical to regular bike. I don't even own one, however, when I'm old I know I'm going to get one when I can't turn over the cranks on a non-ebike. I have seen them around and they don't look obtrusive by tearing up the trails roosting. Lol.

  18. #118
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BvMohTja8
    real kit ready to roost trailing in a neighborhood near you.No Ebike sign at Demo Forest-26073422_183451329067983_4743655700415119360_n.jpg
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BvMohTja8
    real kit ready to roost trailing in a neighborhood near you.Click image for larger version. 

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    Skip to 2:14 for the roosting action:

    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BvMohTja8
    real kit ready to roost trailing in a neighborhood near you.Click image for larger version. 

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    Throttle based ebikes where no pedaling is involved shouldn't be allowed but Pedal Assist bikes are fine in my opinion.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    Throttle based ebikes where no pedaling is involved shouldn't be allowed but Pedal Assist bikes are fine in my opinion.
    Can you tell the difference in the parking lot?

    The one in the video looks less like an e-bike than a 10k levo
    Last edited by sfgiantsfan; 01-22-2018 at 09:34 AM.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Can you tell the difference in the parking lot?
    Or the trail? A little ghost peddling and I couldn't.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  23. #123
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    I finally got around to reading through this thread... thanks for all the mentions, guys, I guess? But now, a deep breath:

    I have no problem with ebikes at Demo.

    Demo is the place where ebikes should be allowed. I understand that the rules state that they aren't allowed, and that should be respected since it's amazing what mtb trails are allowed there, especially in a place with as crummy access issues as the Bay Area.

    Here's the thing- I've been very publicly against Ebikes on this forum and elsewhere online. Those opinions apply to mutli-use trails and the very real fear that access will be restricted in places I ride. But Demo is defacto bikes-only and essentially single-directional. Sure, there are some mushroom hunter hikers, but it's basically just us most of the time. Someone on an ebike passing me on the climb up won't change my day riding at all. I have to pass people on the DH all the time anyway, so that's not really an issue either. Demo is everything we need, a place with bikes-only downhill-only trails; if there were more Demo's around California, we wouldn't be having access issues and ebike debates.

    In short, I still think ebikes are, on the whole, a big negative for places with already contentious access situations, mostly due to perceptions from the anti-fun crowd. But fighting them in a place like Demo is just spiteful and misses the bigger picture: what we really need is bike-specific trails like Demo, and if we two-wheelers can't get along in a place like that, how can we expect to be taken seriously when pleading for multi-use access closer to home?
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    Someone on an ebike passing me on the climb up won't change my day riding at all.
    Thatís a scenario I cannot comprehend, seeing as you are faster than ebikes.
    goodbye cruel world. I am leaving you today.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    I finally got around to reading through this thread... thanks for all the mentions, guys, I guess? But now, a deep breath:

    I have no problem with ebikes at Demo.

    Demo is the place where ebikes should be allowed. I understand that the rules state that they aren't allowed, and that should be respected since it's amazing what mtb trails are allowed there, especially in a place with as crummy access issues as the Bay Area.

    Here's the thing- I've been very publicly against Ebikes on this forum and elsewhere online. Those opinions apply to mutli-use trails and the very real fear that access will be restricted in places I ride. But Demo is defacto bikes-only and essentially single-directional. Sure, there are some mushroom hunter hikers, but it's basically just us most of the time. Someone on an ebike passing me on the climb up won't change my day riding at all. I have to pass people on the DH all the time anyway, so that's not really an issue either. Demo is everything we need, a place with bikes-only downhill-only trails; if there were more Demo's around California, we wouldn't be having access issues and ebike debates.

    In short, I still think ebikes are, on the whole, a big negative for places with already contentious access situations, mostly due to perceptions from the anti-fun crowd. But fighting them in a place like Demo is just spiteful and misses the bigger picture: what we really need is bike-specific trails like Demo, and if we two-wheelers can't get along in a place like that, how can we expect to be taken seriously when pleading for multi-use access closer to home?
    Agreed, but some of the anti ebike crowd sounds like the average HOHA zealots. Good luck having a rational discussion.

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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Good luck having a rational discussion.
    Since you're a vocal ebike proponent, and are open to rational discussion, I have a question for you:

    Is it really worth advocating for ebikes on mediocre trails (ignoring Demo)? Is it more desirable and attainable that ebikes gain access in MidPen, or that we get a few (pedal)bikes-only trail trails close to population centers, where they can take pressure off already crowded trail systems? To me, these are rhetorical questions with obvious answers, but I'm genuinely curious if you can really rationalize advocating for ebikes outside of places like Demo, as I've seen in some of your posts.
    ye' old trailblog: www.most-excellent-adventures.com THE BAY AREA... WHERE IF IT'S FUN, IT'S ILLEGAL

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    Since you're a vocal ebike proponent, and are open to rational discussion, I have a question for you:

    Is it really worth advocating for ebikes on mediocre trails (ignoring Demo)? Is it more desirable and attainable that ebikes gain access in MidPen, or that we get a few (pedal)bikes-only trail trails close to population centers, where they can take pressure off already crowded trail systems? To me, these are rhetorical questions with obvious answers, but I'm genuinely curious if you can really rationalize advocating for ebikes outside of places like Demo, as I've seen in some of your posts.
    MidPen is a friggin lost cause. They're about as crazy as MMWD. MidPen won't get us either one. To answer your question, from a purely selfish view, I'd rather have bike only trails, but I just don't see it happen (outside maybe of Santa Cruz). And at any rate, nobody is advocating for ebikes, and I expect that most agencies in the bay area will ban them, because that's what they do. They banned/curtailed bikes use 35 years ago. They're not interested in rational arguments. If they could, they would limit parks to birders and walkers. I remember listening to a higher up from the EBRPD complaining about bikes devoured so many miles of trails compared to hikers... Average park director is a Sierra Club wildernut, so good luck getting anything fun done out here on pedals with or without a motor.

    My only point is that we're all going to get older and at some point won't be able to climb 1000s of feet, especially at elevation. So, for folks with disabilities or simply too old to do it under their own power, ebikes make sense. Now, I've ridden with folks over 70 who totally kicked my ass (turns that most people do, but whatever), but I suspect that it won't be true for everyone. For a good percentage of normal retirees, the choice will be between getting an ebike or sticking to flat roads/boring trails. From my viewpoint, it's a pretty easy choice. My plan is to ride for as long as I can, with or without a motor, until I can't and then I'll sit in my couch, watch Redbull TV and reminisce about the time when I could.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by sosburn View Post
    i think e bikes have their place. Demo is not that place.

    there was this one guy that used to ride china camp on a haibike, and it's illegal there (no motorized vehicles). One day he rode past the ranger going really fast uphill (rangers walk the trails there sometimes), and that was the end of that, as it's been almost six months and i haven't seen him again. ranger was real pissed (he didn't have a trail pass either lol) so i got out of there before i saw the outcome.
    Its ACTUALLY LEGAL to ride a Class 1 Emtb in China Camp, San Pedro OSP and Camp Tamarancho. Just an FYI, Happy trails!

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    Throttle based ebikes where no pedaling is involved shouldn't be allowed but Pedal Assist bikes are fine in my opinion.
    What about one with different settings that can be self defined "legal" class 1 PAS and an emoto when no one is looking?



    FF to 4:10 for the switcheroo

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    MidPen is a friggin lost cause. ... My plan is to ride for as long as I can, with or without a motor, until I can't and then I'll sit in my couch, watch Redbull TV and reminisce about the time when I could.
    Well put. It sucks that we have come to be so cynical, and I'm afraid I'm right there with you.
    ye' old trailblog: www.most-excellent-adventures.com THE BAY AREA... WHERE IF IT'S FUN, IT'S ILLEGAL

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    What about one with different settings that can be self defined "legal" class 1 PAS and an emoto when no one is looking?



    FF to 4:10 for the switcheroo
    This new technology to me. I have never seen ones like that. However, I think once the ebike industry becomes more distinct, they will be able to categorize them better. I think they will probably allow pedal assist ebikes on most trails as they they do not impact trails anymore than regular bikes.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    I think once the ebike industry becomes more distinct, they will be able to categorize them better.
    This is pure fantasy. Everyday they get more powerful with longer range and the advertised ratings never change. +50% power, still 250 watts. Ebikes are coming and I love mine for all kinds of things. Dirt is not one of them.

    10 years ago electric cars where a joke, now they are the quickest car you can buy. Ebikes will blur the line to motorcycles and pure electric motorcycles will rivail gas in power, range and price.

    The industry has no interest or incentive to reducing power and there are zero tests they need to pass in the USA. Also the throttle vs pedal is complete bullshit. Doesn't matter how you activate the motor, it's still a motor and needs to be treated as such.

    We can't expect rangers to regulate ebikes when the manufacturers are not even regulated. The price for extra inforcement would cost way to much. That's why they are banned most places.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    We can't expect rangers to regulate ebikes when the manufacturers are not even regulated. The price for extra enforcement would cost way to much. That's why they are banned most places.
    ^^^This.

    All my latest DIY e-bikes are Class 1 or Class 2 with the flip of switch. (Or Class 3 with a programming change...or a moped...) I could carry the appropriate labels with Velcro backing. (Or hell just keep sticking the labels on top of one another) Has anybody ever heard of a LEO even checking for the e-bike class labels???

    Maybe just leave the Class 1 sticker and go with a stealth throttle (twist grip shifters look just like twist throttles )

    Oooooh and then there's all the options available with Bluetooth-enabled motor controllers! ("Siri; Hello Mister Ranger" = "Siri please set the XYZ bicycle controller in Class 1 mode") (Thanks)
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    well a bike is basically a bike its just that some have more power than others. they all pedal and they all go downhill the same. riders of all kinds of bikes like to enjoy the forest and the trails and hang out and have a beer in the lot after a killer ride. its not "us and them" its all riders together. supporting a ban on our brothers just leads to a slippery slope of banning other kinds of bikes
    You just don't get it.If you ride an e bike you are not a mountain biker,you are a slacker that is endangering our legal access to trails we have fought hard to get.

    It is "US AND THEM" So stick to the bike path!

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    We can't expect rangers to regulate ebikes when the manufacturers are not even regulated.
    They can point their radar gun at them, if they're going too fast they write a ticket.
    Midpen rangers seem to have that part down.

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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    They can point their radar gun at them, if they're going too fast they write a ticket.
    Midpen rangers seem to have that part down.

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    Just what we all want. Some dude standing on the flow trail at demo with a radar gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Just what we all want. Some dude standing on the flow trail at demo with a radar gun.
    Nobody rides up the flow trail

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    nobody gets speeding tickets riding up hill.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    nobody gets speeding tickets riding up hill.
    ...yet.

    Give me an extra 250w and I can probably scoot uphill at 20mph on anything below a 10% grade.

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  40. #140
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    I'm not buying the idea that ebikes are the answer for the "over 70 crowd" who still want to ride but need help.

    I'm 65 this year and age is taking its toll. But what I notice about advancing years is not in the area of strength or endurance. I find what is deteriorating for myself, is balance. Riding an ebike will not help that.

    But the effects of age are multi-faceted really. When I'm just too old to ride anymore because of effects of a lifetime of wear and tear on my body, or illness, or injury, or balance, or flexibility, or motivation, or the fact that my old man a$$ will not hold up my bike shorts anymore, I think I'll be done, just done, and not ready to climb on some bicycle shaped, electric wheelchair.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

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    Since I was 5 I've ridden bicycles and motorcycles over all types of roads, trails, and terrain. I'm 42, and I still ride every weekend that I can. I've recently had the opportunity to try a class 1 ebike on trails you wouldn't take a beginner on. I went into the experience with no expectations or judgements, just curiosity. Here's what I learned.

    An ebike is a bicycle. It is not a motorcycle. The experience of riding it is 99% like a non-motorized mountain bike. It does not function like a motorcycle, and does not provide the experience of riding like a motorcycle. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about, and has almost certainly never ridden a motorcycle. They are speaking from ideology, not observation.

    For rides of any length, you have to be judicious with the power. If you have the motor on full blast, it will be dead in an hour or so. It's not designed for that.

    If you want the motor to help you climb, you still have to pedal. I was sweating and panting at the top of every hill. I just got there faster.

    It weighs around 50lbs, not 250. The difference in total weight of rider and bike (I weight 155) is around 10%, not much. The same rider on an ebike will do no more trail damage than on non-ebike.

    Yes you could ride one in a reckless fashion, but you could do that on any bike. I still slowed way down at blind corners (why don't more riders do this?). I still had other riders coming down while I was going up and yelling at me to get out of their way. (Us mountain bikers need to take some trail etiquette lessons from the dirt bike crowd. They're much more polite. Next time you see a rider on the side of the trail working on their bike, stop and ask they need any help or tools! wait, I'm getting off topic here...).

    They make a bit of noise. Took some getting used to since one of the things I like about mountain biking is the "forest bathing" aspect. I'd prefer it if they were silent, but it's a motor with moving parts and all.

    My prediction: once enough people have them, and land managers look at places like China Camp, Wilder Ranch and Tamarancho and see that they have not fundamentally changed the dynamic or effected trail conditions, they will be allowed most places. They will become normal, and the people with "holier than thou" objections will move on to another cause.

    Verdict: I'll get one, but I'm not ditching my regular full suspension bike. Different bikes for different rides. Also, if trail access advocacy is part of your mission, you should make friends with the ebike riders. You need allies, not enemies.

    Thanks for reading, now go ride!

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmil View Post
    An ebike is a bicycle.........

    Yep, a bicycle with a noisy motor that lets you do a 4 hour ride in 2 hours. Otherwise exactly the same thing.
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Really? You can ride a full size MX bike and navigate the turns on the flow trail without and issues? If your a pro rider MX rider probably, but I can't imagine an average MX rider would have fun on the flow trail. The turns are too tight. I've only ridden MX a few times and switch backs and super tight turns are a pain in the ass.
    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a bicycle with a noisy motor that lets you do a 4 hour ride in 2 hours. Otherwise exactly the same thing.
    Exactly! Though your numbers are off. One of the great things about cycling is that there so many different types of bikes to try

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    Exactly, so why confuse it with motorcycling - which e-bikes are.

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    Not a motorcycle.
    The optional pedal attachment gives the LMX 161-H working pedals, to use it as a motorized bicycle in most US states with restricted top speed and power, usually 750W and 20mph max. Check your local regulations for more details.
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    ďExactly, so why confuse it with motorcycling - which e-bikes are.Ē

    Nope! Motorcycles are fun, you should try them!

  48. #148
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    Motorcycles are fun. EBikes are fun, there's little doubt. "Fun" doesn't change the argument about limiting their access by declaring a clear delineation between them as motorIZED cycles and mountain bikes as purely human powered.

    People calling eBikes motorcycles aren't doing themselves any favors. Calling them motorized cycles, cannot be argued (except in a post fact society, I guess).
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a bicycle with a noisy motor that lets you do a 4 hour ride in 2 hours. Otherwise exactly the same thing.
    So in 4 hours you can ride twice as much, what's wrong with that? And "noisy" motor - why nobody complains about loud hubs, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Motorcycles are fun. EBikes are fun, there's little doubt. "Fun" doesn't change the argument about limiting their access by declaring a clear delineation between them as motorIZED cycles and mountain bikes as purely human powered.

    People calling eBikes motorcycles aren't doing themselves any favors. Calling them motorized cycles, cannot be argued (except in a post fact society, I guess).
    Ah the purity argument. If itís purity your after then you should be hiking. After all bicycles provide a distinct mechanical advantage not natural to the human body. The endgame of this argument is hikers only, none of us want that.

  51. #151
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    ^^^Ahhh, the old false equivalence. Not working here, just as it doesn't work in other arenas.

    Trying to convolute motorized and mechanized, doesn't cut it.
    Last edited by chuckha62; 01-23-2018 at 02:13 PM. Reason: typo
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  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblige View Post
    So in 4 hours you can ride twice as much, what's wrong with that? And "noisy" motor - why nobody complains about loud hubs, huh?
    Because it conflicts with the "e-bikes don't do any more harm to the trails" argument; double the mileage or double the laps means double the wear and tear to the tread surface. Not to mention the 10% greater gross weight and up to 3X the applied torque.

    Yes people do complain about noisy hubs and especially noisy brakes; even from fellow bikers, never mind hikers or horse people.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Because it conflicts with the "e-bikes don't do any more harm to the trails" argument; double the mileage or double the laps means double the wear and tear to the tread surface. Not to mention the 10% greater gross weight and up to 3X the applied torque.

    Yes people do complain about noisy hubs and especially noisy brakes; even from fellow bikers, never mind hikers or horse people.
    I ride once a week, some ride every day - do we need day passes and punch cards now?

    I weight 160 and my bike 45 - how is that different from someone who weights 180 and a regular bike? Should there be a weight limit to get on trails too?

    And how cares how much torque I apply grinding up a fire road?

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmil View Post
    Ah the purity argument. If itís purity your after then you should be hiking. After all bicycles provide a distinct mechanical advantage not natural to the human body. The endgame of this argument is hikers only, none of us want that.
    This sounds just like the idiocy that the Blue Ribbon Coalition dolts used way back when as they unsuccessfully tried to lump motos and MTB in their efforts to woo MTB support.

    It didnít make sense then and it still doesnít make sense.

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblige View Post
    So in 4 hours you can ride twice as much, what's wrong with that?

    Nothing at all, just means it's twice as fast as a bicycle and therefore significantly different.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Nothing at all, just means it's twice as fast as a bicycle and therefore significantly different.
    Yes, so are people who are very fit - different from regular people. They can ride faster and further - ain't no special rules for them, right?

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmil View Post
    Since I was 5 I've ridden bicycles and motorcycles over all types of roads, trails, and terrain. I'm 42, and I still ride every weekend that I can. I've recently had the opportunity to try a class 1 ebike on trails you wouldn't take a beginner on. I went into the experience with no expectations or judgements, just curiosity. Here's what I learned.

    An ebike is a bicycle. It is not a motorcycle. The experience of riding it is 99% like a non-motorized mountain bike. It does not function like a motorcycle, and does not provide the experience of riding like a motorcycle. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about, and has almost certainly never ridden a motorcycle. They are speaking from ideology, not observation.

    For rides of any length, you have to be judicious with the power. If you have the motor on full blast, it will be dead in an hour or so. It's not designed for that.

    If you want the motor to help you climb, you still have to pedal. I was sweating and panting at the top of every hill. I just got there faster.

    It weighs around 50lbs, not 250. The difference in total weight of rider and bike (I weight 155) is around 10%, not much. The same rider on an ebike will do no more trail damage than on non-ebike.

    Yes you could ride one in a reckless fashion, but you could do that on any bike. I still slowed way down at blind corners (why don't more riders do this?). I still had other riders coming down while I was going up and yelling at me to get out of their way. (Us mountain bikers need to take some trail etiquette lessons from the dirt bike crowd. They're much more polite. Next time you see a rider on the side of the trail working on their bike, stop and ask they need any help or tools! wait, I'm getting off topic here...).

    They make a bit of noise. Took some getting used to since one of the things I like about mountain biking is the "forest bathing" aspect. I'd prefer it if they were silent, but it's a motor with moving parts and all.

    My prediction: once enough people have them, and land managers look at places like China Camp, Wilder Ranch and Tamarancho and see that they have not fundamentally changed the dynamic or effected trail conditions, they will be allowed most places. They will become normal, and the people with "holier than thou" objections will move on to another cause.

    Verdict: I'll get one, but I'm not ditching my regular full suspension bike. Different bikes for different rides. Also, if trail access advocacy is part of your mission, you should make friends with the ebike riders. You need allies, not enemies.

    Thanks for reading, now go ride!
    So which is it, are the great for grandpa and grandma, and handicapped just so they can get on a trail, because without one, they would be stuck on a couch? Or is it just the same as a regular bike, just a tiny bit easier to pedal uphill?

    I am not sure we should have 70+ people huffing, puffing and sweating all over a mountain. I don't see how a handicapped person would get any benefit from riding one either, except on flat roads and trails.

    And your prediction about people buying them, then the land managers will just open trails, is one of the most ridiculous statements I hear by ebikers. You do realize that people own mountain bikes already and have to fight for every inch of trail we get.
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    So much trolling, so little discussion. Peace out. Have a nice ride and be kind.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Because it conflicts with the "e-bikes don't do any more harm to the trails" argument; double the mileage or double the laps means double the wear and tear to the tread surface. Not to mention the 10% greater gross weight and up to 3X the applied torque.

    Yes people do complain about noisy hubs and especially noisy brakes; even from fellow bikers, never mind hikers or horse people.
    I thought that having more folks in the sport was good. Your argument seems to indicate otherwise.

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    There's a time and place for ebikes. People who bought ebikes knew that not all trails would be accessible to them. You can go through the proper channels and contest this, in the meantime stay in areas that are ebike friendly.

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    I find this a good place for my monthly e bike rant. Like the cock smoker who closed on me going down hill with obvious power assist on Aptos creek before the gate and then powered around me and a group of hikers not 10 yards after the gate instead of waiting 5 yards to take his turn. Really proving his fire road chops.

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by noblige View Post
    I ride once a week, some ride every day - do we need day passes and punch cards now?
    Eventually, yes. As avocations become more popular to the point of exceeding the capacity of *whatever* then regulations become established. Good examples; hiking many of the "Crest" trails. Backcountry camping in many parks. Running certain rivers. Deer tags. Salmon tags. Abalone tags.

    I weight 160 and my bike 45 - how is that different from someone who weights 180 and a regular bike? Should there be a weight limit to get on trails too?
    Limiting the weight of e-bikes to maybe 60 lbs is a damn good idea; I'm glad you suggested it. It'll eliminate those 10kW monster e-bikes

    And how cares how much torque I apply grinding up a fire road?
    Nobody cares about grinding up a fireroad; hell blast on up via moto. It's the legitimate access to single track we're talking about; a scarce commodity in the densely populated regions of California.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Nobody cares about grinding up a fireroad; hell blast on up via moto. It's the legitimate access to single track we're talking about; a scarce commodity in the densely populated regions of California.
    I was talking about Demo - there's no difference which bike you have going downhill. And as you said - nobody cares about Hihn's Mills. So, what's the problem?

  64. #164
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    On a two-way single track trail, like most of those at China Camp, I now have to slow way down because of a motor riding jake could easily do 15 miles/hour up those trails. It is now ruining the downhill because you want to do 2 laps in one our or are too lazy to ride up it like the rest of us. There is a huge difference in someone climbing at 15 compared to 7-9.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Because it conflicts with the "e-bikes don't do any more harm to the trails" argument; double the mileage or double the laps means double the wear and tear to the tread surface. Not to mention the 10% greater gross weight and up to 3X the applied torque.

    Yes people do complain about noisy hubs and especially noisy brakes; even from fellow bikers, never mind hikers or horse people.
    OOOO, we'd better ban those marginally overweight people...or those really light in shape riders who can do lots of laps!

    😱😱😱😱😱😱

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Eventually, yes. As avocations become more popular to the point of exceeding the capacity of *whatever* then regulations become established. Good examples; hiking many of the "Crest" trails. Backcountry camping in many parks. Running certain rivers. Deer tags. Salmon tags. Abalone tags.
    Come to think of it - that would probably be the best. $10/day for a bike, $15/ebike - solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Limiting the weight of e-bikes to maybe 60 lbs is a damn good idea; I'm glad you suggested it. It'll eliminate those 10kW monster e-bikes
    Sure. I would do stickers - similar to OHV red/green.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    I'm not buying the idea that ebikes are the answer for the "over 70 crowd" who still want to ride but need help.

    I'm 65 this year and age is taking its toll. But what I notice about advancing years is not in the area of strength or endurance. I find what is deteriorating for myself, is balance. Riding an ebike will not help that.

    But the effects of age are multi-faceted really. When I'm just too old to ride anymore because of effects of a lifetime of wear and tear on my body, or illness, or injury, or balance, or flexibility, or motivation, or the fact that my old man a$$ will not hold up my bike shorts anymore, I think I'll be done, just done, and not ready to climb on some bicycle shaped, electric wheelchair.
    Have you ever ridden an ebike?


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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Have you ever ridden an ebike?


    Sent from somewhere out there.
    People always ask that question. Why is that?
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Have you ever ridden an ebike?


    Sent from somewhere out there.
    Yes. I have 1 I built for my wife and 2 I built for my parents. I've test rode 4 other major brands too.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    On a two-way single track trail, like most of those at China Camp, I now have to slow way down because of a motor riding jake could easily do 15 miles/hour up those trails. It is now ruining the downhill because you want to do 2 laps in one our or are too lazy to ride up it like the rest of us. There is a huge difference in someone climbing at 15 compared to 7-9.
    The irony is strong here.

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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yep, a bicycle with a noisy motor that lets you do a 4 hour ride in 2 hours. Otherwise exactly the same thing.
    Not all are like what you describe.
    Next!

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    Most mountain bikers are already so pathetically out of shape with more money than time that I predict one more toy is not going to have an impact on their overall land use in the long run. They'll still have to work for it, and the motivation to sit on their asses drinking beer and watching Redbull TV will outweigh the reward of suffering.

  73. #173
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    The slippery slope argument that if we allow class 1 ebikes then we'll suddenly have electric powered motorcycles ripping up our trails is always prevalent in this thread. Yeah, there's ebikes out there with tons of power and a twist throttle. Yeah, there's electric motos out there that have two wheels and handlebars, so what?

    There are F1 cars and trophy trucks that exist, yet somehow for the most part people manage to keep these huge horsepower shop wrecking monsters off of the street even though cars are legal to drive on the road.

    The answer really is clearly defined laws. Even when I take my moto to hollister hills, there are rules I have to follow. At certain times of the year my bike needs to have a green sticker. Every time I ride on public land my bike also needs a spark arrestor. Yes, there are bikes out there that don't meet the green sticker emissions requirements and yes it is possible to remove the spark arrestor on my dirt bike but I don't because there are clearly defined and enforceable laws that I know I can get denied entry to the park or ticketed for violating.

    Ebikes are in their infancy and because of that there's definitely no legislation yet to make sure people don't ruin it for the rest of us. The best thing pro and anti ebike people can do right now is work to get those laws defined as fast as possible. Once that happens, it's very easy to limit conflict because society has already agreed up what's acceptable and what isn't.

    As with everything, there's going to need to be some compromise. The extreme "lets ban all ebikes" and the "I should get to do what I want" crowds are not going to be sustainable because they will always breed too much resentment from more level headed people.

    In the meantime, if you have an ebike, try not to ruin it for the rest of us by riding it like a douche on our trails and I'll leave you alone.

    easy.

  74. #174
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    Oh yeah, I almost forgot-

    Those of you who were bitching about an ebike ripping down a hill and/or catching and passing you like a jerk down a hill need to understand something: If someone caught you on an ebike going downhill, they definitely would have also caught you on a regular bike going down hill.

    I've test ridden ebikes- they don't go faster down hill than a good mountain bike.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Oh yeah, I almost forgot-

    Those of you who were bitching about an ebike ripping down a hill and/or catching and passing you like a jerk down a hill need to understand something: If someone caught you on an ebike going downhill, they definitely would have also caught you on a regular bike going down hill.

    I've test ridden ebikes- they don't go faster down hill than a good mountain bike.
    I'm not sure I agree with this.

    Take my Yeti ASRc. It's pretty darn fast up and down, despite having relatively low tread tires on it. It's set up to cover ground quickly.

    Or, my hypothetical next bike, which will still be a compromise at 130/130mm. Not the best up or down.

    Now, look at a Specialized Kenovo. If I have an extra 250w and can jam uphill at a combined 550w-600w, I won't give a shit about the doubly ply DH tires I'm running. And you can bet that e-bike is faster downhill than a bike that makes compromises for uphill speed. That extra 250w allows me to ride a bike with bigger, far more aggressive tires and much more travel with no drawbacks. Faster around every corner, and taking faster, more aggressive lines. If it DOESN'T go downhill faster than a 120/100mm or 130/130mm bike, what's the point?
    Death from Below.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with this.

    Take my Yeti ASRc. It's pretty darn fast up and down, despite having relatively low tread tires on it. It's set up to cover ground quickly.

    Or, my hypothetical next bike, which will still be a compromise at 130/130mm. Not the best up or down.

    Now, look at a Specialized Kenovo. If I have an extra 250w and can jam uphill at a combined 550w-600w, I won't give a shit about the doubly ply DH tires I'm running. And you can bet that e-bike is faster downhill than a bike that makes compromises for uphill speed. That extra 250w allows me to ride a bike with bigger, far more aggressive tires and much more travel with no drawbacks. Faster around every corner, and taking faster, more aggressive lines. If it DOESN'T go downhill faster than a 120/100mm or 130/130mm bike, what's the point?
    This is correct. When I was riding enduro mx, I think I was a wee bit faster up and downhill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    The answer really is clearly defined laws.

    Ebikes are in their infancy and because of that there's definitely no legislation yet to make sure people don't ruin it for the rest of us.
    Nope, you're wrong.

    There's definitely legislation. It's been in place for over two years.

    The various "No ebikes" signs/policies put in place are clearly defined and based on AB-1096.

    "21207.5. (a) Notwithstanding Sections 21207 and 23127 of this code, or any other law, a motorized bicycle or class 3 electric bicycle shall not be operated on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane established pursuant to Section 21207, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over the path or trail permits, by ordinance, that operation.

    (b) The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail."

  78. #178
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    I rode my ebike on buzzard lagoon yesterday (that's thr fireroad that leads into Demo), down into Eureka canyon, watsonville, mt madonna and back to summit. Awesome ride, mix of dirt and rode....all legal.

    I bought a turbo levo this year and frickin love it. Also still ride my cross bike, still huck big gaps on my nomad and occassionaly get talked into a cross country epic. The ebike is just another arrow in the quiver.

    I stick to the legal areas (coe, etc.) Demo is a special place, and the relationship with calfire, stewards of soquel forest, mbosc and the mtb community is unique. Would never want to mess that up by riding an ebike out there.

    So if you see me riding up buzzard lagoon on a black levo, please "don't taze me bro". Some of us out there are playing by the rules and just trying to have fun on our bikes.
    Last edited by PACS; 01-24-2018 at 10:17 PM.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Have you ever ridden an ebike?


    Sent from somewhere out there.
    The shop that helps me out when I need it (Plug for Giant Reno Sparks) has a demo and they have begged me to try it. I have zero interest. It has taken me years and years of hard work to get where I am, (old, fat and slow). But I am faster than I used to be, I am lighter than I used to be, I have way more endurance than I ever had. When I ride I am really celebrating the fitness I have achieved. I'm celebrating the fact that while many 65 year old guys are busy sitting, spreading, and dying, I'm fit, fast, and enjoying the payoff for dieting and working my as$ off. To ride an ebike for 1 minute would be a sell out to what I have achieved through hard work and will power. Not interested.
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with this.

    Take my Yeti ASRc. It's pretty darn fast up and down, despite having relatively low tread tires on it. It's set up to cover ground quickly.

    Or, my hypothetical next bike, which will still be a compromise at 130/130mm. Not the best up or down.

    Now, look at a Specialized Kenovo. If I have an extra 250w and can jam uphill at a combined 550w-600w, I won't give a shit about the doubly ply DH tires I'm running. And you can bet that e-bike is faster downhill than a bike that makes compromises for uphill speed. That extra 250w allows me to ride a bike with bigger, far more aggressive tires and much more travel with no drawbacks. Faster around every corner, and taking faster, more aggressive lines. If it DOESN'T go downhill faster than a 120/100mm or 130/130mm bike, what's the point?
    I already ride up the hill with a 2.5 wt minion dhf 3c on the front and a 2.4 wt minion dhr II 3c on the back. I have 160 mm of travel up front and 147 mm out back. 780mm bars, 65.5 degree head angle... all on a bike I pedaled up the hill with no motor. Given equal skill, I'd definitely catch and pass you on your ASRc. I think we can safely remove bike geometry, travel, tires, etc out of the equation when there's plenty of super capable descending bikes that are easy enough to pedal to the top these days.

    What a ebike does have going down the hill is a lot more weight to throw around. In my experience more weight to manhandle in the corners and over rocks, roots, etc= more effort to go fast.

    It's harder to go downhill fast on an ebike. At any rate, the point of an ebike is to ride farther with less effort. The downhills are still fun, but until they figure out how to make lighter batteries and motors, the downhills are still more fun on a properly setup enduro/am bike.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustedone View Post
    Nope, you're wrong.

    There's definitely legislation. It's been in place for over two years.

    The various "No ebikes" signs/policies put in place are clearly defined and based on AB-1096.

    "21207.5. (a) Notwithstanding Sections 21207 and 23127 of this code, or any other law, a motorized bicycle or class 3 electric bicycle shall not be operated on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane established pursuant to Section 21207, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over the path or trail permits, by ordinance, that operation.

    (b) The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail."
    Nice! I didn't realize that had become a law. So class 3s are out, but class 1s and 2s are still a go on trails unless signed?

    I haven't seen the sign at demo and other places, do they call out ebikes by classes or just say no ebikes?

    I feel like a lot of land managers still aren't aware of this law.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    The shop that helps me out when I need it (Plug for Giant Reno Sparks) has a demo and they have begged me to try it. I have zero interest. It has taken me years and years of hard work to get where I am, (old, fat and slow). But I am faster than I used to be, I am lighter than I used to be, I have way more endurance than I ever had. When I ride I am really celebrating the fitness I have achieved. I'm celebrating the fact that while many 65 year old guys are busy sitting, spreading, and dying, I'm fit, fast, and enjoying the payoff for dieting and working my as$ off. To ride an ebike for 1 minute would be a sell out to what I have achieved through hard work and will power. Not interested.
    At the very least you aught to demo an ebike so when you criticise them you actually have some background to reference. As it is, it's easy to dismiss a big chunk of your argument because you don't seem know know much about ebikes. I'll bet demo-ing them one day won't suddenly take your fitness away.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    To ride an ebike for 1 minute would be a sell out to what I have achieved through hard work and will power.
    Less so than getting into a car I'd say.

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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Nice! I didn't realize that had become a law. So class 3s are out, but class 1s and 2s are still a go on trails unless signed?

    I haven't seen the sign at demo and other places, do they call out ebikes by classes or just say no ebikes?

    I feel like a lot of land managers still aren't aware of this law.
    They look like this (from the SDF FB page):

    No Ebike sign at Demo Forest-25507756_1966839166903458_7512143921226991143_n.jpg

    Ya gotta be quick because these get torn down about as fast as they're put up. A lot of wannabe Edward Abbeys in this group.

    It would be nice if they spelled out the Class(es) being banned but usually "No Electric Bicycles" meets the letter of the law. (Legal e-bikes are "electric bicycles" per the DMV section; it even spells out that "electric bicycles are not motor vehicles")

    Further; the Section 1438, Title 14 goes beyond what the DMV allows (or not) and is a "Temporary Restricted Use" closure. The downside (from SDF's POV) is that these need to be re-issued annually.

    Unfortunately the SDF brochure still says "motorized vehicles" with out defining it further. A sharp lawyer could probably win his day in court. Especially if the year is up.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I feel like a lot of land managers still aren't aware of this law.
    This doesnít make sense since every ebike ban by a State land manager is possible due to AB-1096.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustedone View Post
    This doesnít make sense since every ebike ban by a State land manager is possible due to AB-1096.
    I ride a little farther south than the bay area usually - Santa Cruz, Monterey, San Luis Obispo and down into southern california. So far demo is the only place I've seen signs posted. I know the blm has also banned ebikes, but I think that might be nation wide and not just their california locations. Could be wrong on that one tho.

    It's also easier to just say "NO EBIKES" when you're not aware of the class 1, 2, and 3 classifications.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    They look like this (from the SDF FB page):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	25507756_1966839166903458_7512143921226991143_n.jpg 
Views:	141 
Size:	71.3 KB 
ID:	1179663

    Ya gotta be quick because these get torn down about as fast as they're put up. A lot of wannabe Edward Abbeys in this group.

    It would be nice if they spelled out the Class(es) being banned but usually "No Electric Bicycles" meets the letter of the law. (Legal e-bikes are "electric bicycles" per the DMV section; it even spells out that "electric bicycles are not motor vehicles")

    Further; the Section 1438, Title 14 goes beyond what the DMV allows (or not) and is a "Temporary Restricted Use" closure. The downside (from SDF's POV) is that these need to be re-issued annually.

    Unfortunately the SDF brochure still says "motorized vehicles" with out defining it further. A sharp lawyer could probably win his day in court. Especially if the year is up.
    Thanks! I haven't been out to demo in a while. It seems like demo's closure isn't citing AB-1096, so it does sound like they're not aware there's a better way to limit ebikes than citing a regulation intended to protect timber management.

    I still think this is more a result of ebikes being relatively new, so it takes a while for everyone to new policies for them (AB-1096 in this case).

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Thanks! I haven't been out to demo in a while. It seems like demo's closure isn't citing AB-1096, so it does sound like they're not aware there's a better way to limit ebikes than citing a regulation intended to protect timber management.

    I still think this is more a result of ebikes being relatively new, so it takes a while for everyone to new policies for them (AB-1096 in this case).
    I think they're fully aware of the other law(s); timber management is #1 what they do, recreation (including bicycles) is a distant 3 or 4 on the list. There are several other threads @ MTBR RE e-bikes at Demo if you care to search; including one where I was called out for having the gall to contact the Forest Manager for the straight skinny.

    The most economical way to ban all motorized vehicles is just what they're doing; if they referred to the AB-1096 stuff they'd still have to ban other motorized vehicles. Multiple birds with one stone.

    Also; AB-1096 makes no specific mention of State Demonstration Forests; just about every other entity that might see e-bike usage is spelled out---"... grounds of any public school, state university, state college, unit of the state park system, county park, municipal airport, rapid transit district, transit development board, transit district, public transportation agency, county transportation commission...". (see Section 21113 of the Vehicle Code) CDF may see this as that AB-1096 is not applicable to their State Demonstration Forests.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  89. #189
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  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    The irony is strong here.

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    I know I suck, but it will ruin my rides there if they start showing up
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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I know I suck, but it will ruin my rides there if they start showing up
    You do realize that downhill speed is anti's main argument against bikes. Your comment only adds fodder to it.

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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    You do realize that downhill speed is anti's main argument against bikes. Your comment only adds fodder to it.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    Im not talking about breaking the speed limit, I am talking about closing speeds. I am ready around turns for people hiking, or climbing at a normal pace. I have never come close to hitting anyone hiking.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I know I suck, but it will ruin my rides there if they start showing up
    They've been there for a while. And it's just going to get worse, legal or not. C'est la vie. There are other places to ride. If you seek out rowdy or more obscure trails, you'll lose most pretty much all of the sparkersô.
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice--pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Less so than getting into a car I'd say.

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    Wow, really never thought of it that way! Thanks for pointing out such massive hypocrisy on my part. I bow before your wit and prowess. What brand of ebike do you sell?
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  95. #195
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    This entire debate is only relevant for a few more years IMO.

    In 3-5 years you will not be able to visibly identify an eMTB from a pedal MTB. Bike frames like the Nomad will easily be able to house motor and battery .

    Trail etiquette and responsible riding on industry standard bikes will the be the only method of management. Sure some a-holes are going to mod equipment, but we get rare dirtbikes poaching our trials already, not often though.

    I own one, and to be honest, its kinda cool US riders are so anti, it makes it more fun in some ways. Mountain biking as a lifestyle/sport was not created by a bunch or rule following, article citing whiners, especially free ride, lol. A good Enduro style eMTB (Kenevo, Haibike Exduro 10.0) is so much frigging fun, looping non-shuttle DH trails, jump lines, trail exploration. A good one decsends really well when you get used to the extra wieght. (Which is low on the bike) , and are super stable in the air.

    *DELETED COMMENT ON ILLEGAL ACTIVITY* -​ JCWages


    I like Sam's take on eBike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqozas0xz58
    Last edited by JCWages; 07-20-2018 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Broke the rules

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatzD View Post
    This entire debate is only relevant for a few more years IMO.

    In 3-5 years you will not be able to visibly identify an eMTB from a pedal MTB. Bike frames like the Nomad will easily be able to house motor and battery .

    Trail etiquette and responsible riding on industry standard bikes will the be the only method of management. Sure some a-holes are going to mod equipment, but we get rare dirtbikes poaching our trials already, not often though.

    I own one, and to be honest, its kinda cool US riders are so anti, it makes it more fun in some ways. Mountain biking as a lifestyle/sport was not created by a bunch or rule following, article citing whiners, especially free ride, lol. A good Enduro style eMTB (Kenevo, Haibike Exduro 10.0) is so much frigging fun, looping non-shuttle DH trails, jump lines, trail exploration. A good one decsends really well when you get used to the extra wieght. (Which is low on the bike) , and are super stable in the air.

    *DELETED COMMENT ON ILLEGAL ACTIVITY* -​ JCWages


    I like Sam's take on eBike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqozas0xz58
    The entire post is about illegal activity, JCWages.


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  97. #197
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    On an unrelated note, in Spanish a chain saw is a Motosierra.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    On an unrelated note, in Spanish a chain saw is a Motosierra.
    Can I hear that in a sentence?

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Can I hear that in a sentence?

    Robas mi bicicleta, te corto la mano con mi motosierra.

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Robas mi bicicleta, te corto la mano con mi motosierra.
    I was hoping there would be a biblioteca incorporated somehow.

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