Massive closure of state parks announced: Coe, China Camp, Annadel, Malakoff, &c.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Massive closure of state parks announced: Coe, China Camp, Annadel, Malakoff, &c.

    The doleful list of to-be-shut state parks is in this Sacramento Bee article:

    http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalert...ate-parks.html

    Here they are for quick reference:

    Anderson Marsh SHP
    Annadel SP
    Antelope Valley Indian Museum
    Austin Creek SRA
    Bale Grist Mill SHP
    Benbow Lake SRA
    Benicia Capitol SHP
    Benicia SRA
    Bidwell Mansion SHP
    Bothe-Napa Valley SP
    Brannan Island SRA
    California Mining & Mineral Museum
    Candlestick Point SRA
    Castle Crags SP
    Castle Rock SP
    China Camp SP
    Colusa-Sacramento River SRA
    Del Norte Coast Redwoods SP
    Fort Humboldt SHP
    Fort Tejon SHP
    Garrapata SP
    George J. Hatfield SRA
    Governor's Mansion SHP
    Gray Whale Cove SB
    Greenwood SB
    Grizzly Creek Redwoods SP
    Hendy Woods SP
    Henry W. Coe SP
    Jack London SHP
    Jug Handle SNR
    Leland Stanford Mansion SHP
    Limekiln SP
    Los Encinos SHP
    Malakoff Diggins SHP
    Manchester SP
    McConnell SRA
    McGrath SB
    Mono Lake Tufa SNR
    Morro Strand SB
    Moss Landing SB
    Olompali SHP
    Palomar Mountain SP
    Petaluma Adobe SHP
    Picacho SRA
    Pio Pico SHP
    Plumas-Eureka SP
    Point Cabrillo Light Station
    Portola Redwoods SP
    Providence Mountains SRA
    Railtown 1897 SHP
    Russian Gulch SP
    Saddleback Butte SP
    Salton Sea SRA
    Samuel P. Taylor SP
    San Pasqual Battlefield SHP
    Santa Cruz Mission SHP
    Santa Susana Pass SHP
    Shasta SHP
    South Yuba River SP
    Standish-Hickey SRA
    Sugarloaf Ridge SP
    Tomales Bay SP
    Tule Elk SNR
    Turlock Lake SRA
    Twin Lakes SB
    Weaverville Joss House SHP
    Westport-Union Landing SB
    William B. Ide Adobe SHP
    Woodson Bridge SRA
    Zmudowski SB

    People didn't want to pay an extra $18 on their vehicle registration. This is the result.

  2. #2
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    Now is the time for San Francisco mountain bikers to contact their Board of Supervisors member and demand that the San Francisco Water District open its huge Sunol Watershed landholdings east of Milpitas and south of Del Valle Regional Park.

    This appears to be some of the most spectacular land in the Bay Area, rivaling Henry Coe. It has mountains that rise to almost 4000 feet.

    But it's off-limits to everyone, even hikers. Locked gates everywhere, fences bristling with no trespassing signs.

    In the last couple of years I've campaigned with the SFWD bureaucracy to open the Sunol Watershed to the public. I have gotten nowhere. San Francisco residents have much more influence, because the SFWD answers to the SF board of supervisors. Please give it a try. The loss of Henry Coe and China Camp means the loss of more than 100 miles of mountain biking routes, I would think. That loss makes for an excellent argument to open lands that are walled off for no good reason.

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    I'll believe it when they actually try to gate the parks closed.

    And then I'll ride around the gates...

  4. #4
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    Well, of course. But the problem is that trail and fire road maintenance could stop. It's bad enough as it is. Anyone ridden Bowl Trail lately at Henry Coe? It's halfway disappeared because the grass is so luxuriant this year.

  5. #5
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    Sweet. Grab those shovels, saws, and picks. Time to go build some sick lines!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    People didn't want to pay an extra $18 on their vehicle registration. This is the result.
    Really? I think the results stem from a lot more than the failed Prop 21. Don't get me wrong - I think it stinks that it has come to this. This perspective, however, seems to overlook the root cause(s).

    I wonder how and when the state determines that it's time to open them back up? What are our options? Can we buy Coe from the state?
    $500 million for more irresponsible EBRPD land management? No thanks.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    People didn't want to pay an extra $18 on their vehicle registration. This is the result.
    The irony is that in the long run this will cost the state more. Homeless encampments and pot farms are sure to start popping up in the larger parks, not to mention wildfire control in places like Coe. And police and fire response is way more expensive than just maintaining a park with a skeleton staff.

    But this is America, after all...why spend now when you can spend more later.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by twindaddy
    Really? I think the results stem from a lot more than the failed Prop 21. Don't get me wrong - I think it stinks that it has come to this. This perspective, however, seems to overlook the root cause(s).
    I can't say for sure that Coe, to take one example, would have remained open had the ballot measure passed. Undoubtedly all sorts of factors play into this dreadful news. Maybe the state parks are inefficient with taxpayer money. I don't know. Still, the measure's defeat must have caused this list to be longer than it would have been. I bet the California State Parks Foundation website has or will have the answer.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Sweet. Grab those shovels, saws, and picks. Time to go build some sick lines!
    x2

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    ahh crap--does this mean the year parking pass i just bought at the annadel ranger station is useless?
    94 Specialized Rockhopper

  11. #11
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    Developers have to wringing their hands about this. Bastids. Will sign the anticipated flood of petitions upon arrival.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656
    ahh crap--does this mean the year parking pass i just bought at the annadel ranger station is useless?
    yep. there will soon be no place to park at the park. unfortunately your parking pass didn't support the park in the first place. all state park fees go to the general fund not necessarily back to the parks. now if you had bought a year pass for spring lake, that money goes directly to the regional parks.
    will you rep me?

  13. #13
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    try again

    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    People didn't want to pay an extra $18 on their vehicle registration. This is the result.
    This statement is inaccurate. California has been spending money like a drunken sailor for years. The $18 is nothing more than the state crying to us for more more money while refusing to acknowledge how financially irresponsible it has been for so long.

    So what do governments do to cut their budgets? They go after the things like teachers, fire, police and parks. The average person is more likely to be affected by these cuts and this will make them more likely to approve future tax increases.

    I think it's sad that cutting funding to the parks will have such a negative overall effect but will make almost no difference in how much money the state "saves".
    Every time you clog a toilet you have exceeded someone's expectations.

  14. #14
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    Damn, Fall Creek & Henry Cowell are still not on the list.

    Coe would be heaven on a dirt bike....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Sweet. Grab those shovels, saws, and picks. Time to go build some sick lines!
    ...x3 we could build some real mountain bike trails...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

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    +1 for Rick O'Shay's comment

    The problem in the gov. is more of a spending problem, not a tax problem. Government agencies are notorious for being hugely inefficient. Giving them more money might help temporarily, but they'll just end up wasting more of our money. They could easily fund the parks if they could manage tax money more efficiently. Simple economics: No one "owns" the tax money, so nobody has the incentive to save it. Then come the special interest groups...
    Last edited by aznfatnerd; 05-13-2011 at 07:01 PM. Reason: accidentally pressed enter before finishing

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656
    ahh crap--does this mean the year parking pass i just bought at the annadel ranger station is useless?
    If half the people who use Annadel paid to get in, it would not be on the list.

  18. #18
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    California is not the bloated state people think

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay
    This statement is inaccurate. California has been spending money like a drunken sailor for years. The $18 is nothing more than the state crying to us for more more money while refusing to acknowledge how financially irresponsible it has been for so long.

    So what do governments do to cut their budgets? They go after the things like teachers, fire, police and parks. The average person is more likely to be affected by these cuts and this will make them more likely to approve future tax increases.

    I think it's sad that cutting funding to the parks will have such a negative overall effect but will make almost no difference in how much money the state "saves".
    I don't agree. The facts are otherwise.

    California's 2011 budget is going to be perhaps $85 billion;"proposed General Fund spending is $84.6 billion." New York state's already passed 2011 budget is "approximately $132.5 billion." Yet New York state has about half the population of California. New York City's 2011 proposed budget is $66 billion. That's one city with a budget almost as big as the entire California proposed budget.

    California is near the bottom of all states in terms of state employees per capita (Indiana is said to be the bottom state). We may be the third lowest. The average California state pension is about $25,000 a year, hardly extravagant. (All these stats are easy to find on the Internet.)

    I have no doubt there are state legislators who would spend like drunken sailors if they could, but the state budget is no longer bloated if it ever was.

    Here's one stat worth providing a link to: California's per-capita state spending is lower than Iowa's, Oklahoma's, and North Dakota's. Source: http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comp...p?ind=32&cat=1

    Hardly the stuff on which sailors can get drunk!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...x3 we could build some real mountain bike trails...
    Unlikely. The sheriff will still be around. People arrested could be charged with trespassing and felony vandalism. It will not be worth it.

    Here's California Penal Code section 594 in part:

    "(a) Every person who maliciously commits any of the following
    acts with respect to any real or personal property not his or her
    own, in cases other than those specified by state law, is guilty of
    vandalism:
    "(1) Defaces with graffiti or other inscribed material.
    "(2) Damages.
    "(3) Destroys.
    "Whenever a person violates this subdivision with respect to real
    property, vehicles, signs, fixtures, furnishings, or property
    belonging to any public entity, as defined by Section 811.2 of the
    Government Code, or the federal government, it shall be a permissive
    inference that the person neither owned the property nor had the
    permission of the owner to deface, damage, or destroy the property.
    "(b) (1) If the amount of defacement, damage, or destruction is
    four hundred dollars ($400) or more, vandalism is punishable by
    imprisonment in the state prison or in a county jail not exceeding
    one year,
    or by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars
    ($10,000), or if the amount of defacement, damage, or destruction is
    ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or more, by a fine of not more than
    fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), or by both that fine and
    imprisonment."

    Fergeddaboudit.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Unlikely. The sheriff will still be around. People arrested could be charged with trespassing and felony vandalism. It will not be worth it.

    Here's California Penal Code section 594 in part:

    "(a) Every person who maliciously commits any of the following
    acts with respect to any real or personal property not his or her
    own, in cases other than those specified by state law, is guilty of
    vandalism:
    "(1) Defaces with graffiti or other inscribed material.
    "(2) Damages.
    "(3) Destroys.
    "Whenever a person violates this subdivision with respect to real
    property, vehicles, signs, fixtures, furnishings, or property
    belonging to any public entity, as defined by Section 811.2 of the
    Government Code, or the federal government, it shall be a permissive
    inference that the person neither owned the property nor had the
    permission of the owner to deface, damage, or destroy the property.
    "(b) (1) If the amount of defacement, damage, or destruction is
    four hundred dollars ($400) or more, vandalism is punishable by
    imprisonment in the state prison or in a county jail not exceeding
    one year,
    or by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars
    ($10,000), or if the amount of defacement, damage, or destruction is
    ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or more, by a fine of not more than
    fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), or by both that fine and
    imprisonment."

    Fergeddaboudit.
    ...ask me if i give a mother f**kin sh*t about what you just said...ralph
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  21. #21
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    Build away, then. Check out what happened to a Marin gentlemen who did just that. Huge fines, convictions, etc.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Build away, then. Check out what happened to a Marin gentlemen who did just that. Huge fines, convictions, etc.
    ...shut the f**k up...ralph
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
    If half the people who use Annadel paid to get in, it would not be on the list.
    At least someone besides me said it. Here's the problem though, they'll need to make it worth going and paying for decent parking or just stop charging entry fee's for what we already pay for anyhow and maybe then people will start to appreciate and use our parks more. We all know that if parks was ran in a different mindset then the profits would come easily.

    If they charged for Muir Woods do you think people would still go as much, IMHO, no, or they'd go but spend considerably less at the store there. Which is worth more to a person, a stupid entry fee pay stub, or a nice time with great docents, etc and a sweet souvenir?

    It's like the new parcel tax they tried to vote in over here this month, sorry, but I am not going to pay more for even less. It just isn't worth it to me. Make it worth it to partake of spending and the rest falls into place.

    Something California's system has yet to properly realize..Oregon, Nevada, and Washington, now they got their schzit down packed and locked without any funding issues in the forseeable future.

  24. #24
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    *Berate and kick my shins later, but I have far more faith in Jerry's ability to make things work out for all of us than I ever had with Arnold. Let's just say he's holding some aces (I believe) and is only showing his low cards right now.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I don't agree. The facts are otherwise.

    California's 2011 budget is going to be perhaps $85 billion;"proposed General Fund spending is $84.6 billion." New York state's already passed 2011 budget is "approximately $132.5 billion." Yet New York state has about half the population of California. New York City's 2011 proposed budget is $66 billion. That's one city with a budget almost as big as the entire California proposed budget.

    California is near the bottom of all states in terms of state employees per capita (Indiana is said to be the bottom state). We may be the third lowest. The average California state pension is about $25,000 a year, hardly extravagant. (All these stats are easy to find on the Internet.)

    I have no doubt there are state legislators who would spend like drunken sailors if they could, but the state budget is no longer bloated if it ever was.

    Here's one stat worth providing a link to: California's per-capita state spending is lower than Iowa's, Oklahoma's, and North Dakota's. Source: http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comp...p?ind=32&cat=1

    Hardly the stuff on which sailors can get drunk!

    The problem isn't the small little statistic you quoted. We in the land of fruit and nuts are amongst the most taxed in the nation....so let's through more money yet to be back asking for another money handout. You don't get it, the extra money you think will only perpetuate the gov't waste that is occurring. Believe me I see it as I work in it, just amazing. The unions are also a problem and the voting of CA has brought us to this breaking point. STOP PAYING FOR ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS!!!!!!! Why are there 4 principles in schools? Why are we paying over 50% of the state budget on education yet they still want more and still pump out idiots. I bet out of Harvard you'd get on average a lower paying job than you would in the Dept of Corrections for the State of CA + benefits. Congress can't pass a solvent budget, or even a joke of a one on time and correct the problem, they spend money they don't have and when they fail....gee CA just votes the same morons to office. Like what you voted in hope so....hows that hope and change working for ya.....

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...shut the f**k up...ralph
    F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k S**t F**k Mas***bation M*****F***er A**hole B**ch.

    OK, I just used up your allotted cussing for the rest of this thread. Have fun.
    LOL< I think I just got myself a temp ban?? Sorry but I had to, ignore option aside, that's just pointless detraction and distraction to a good topic.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi
    F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k F**k S**t F**k Mas***bation M*****F***er A**hole B**ch.

    OK, I just used up your allotted cussing for the rest of this thread. Have fun.
    LOL< I think I just got myself a temp ban?? Sorry but I had to, ignore option aside, that's just pointless detraction and distraction to a good topic.
    ...good one...ralph
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi
    *Berate and kick my shins later, but I have far more faith in Jerry's ability to make things work out for all of us than I ever had with Arnold. Let's just say he's holding some aces (I believe) and is only showing his low cards right now.
    Boy his history doesn't bode well for CA, sucked twice before. Arnold was a joke like he knew anything. Who put ol' Jerry in office...uh unions....how do I know I unfortunately now must belong to one. Who does this business, no not a union anymore, want all unionized labor to vote for? Oh that's right...the next idiot that my fellow statesman voted in. So when the budget cutting comes think he's going to cut those who supported him.....

    I'd have more faith in someone who actually ran a business, who not just managed people but also financially competent. This isn't a one side is correct the other is wrong, put someone that knows how to run a business up against a politician and see who yields a better outcome.

  29. #29
    U sayin' Bolt ?
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    California's tax structure is the problem : very high sales and income taxes amidst very limited land tax effectively taxes workers and businesses to provide services to land owners, who pay in tax what basically amounts to the inflationary appreciation on their land .. The old proposition 13 limits land tax and leaves real estate markets vulnerable to speculators ( who cause the boom and bust in CA real estate ) as well as others who can afford to buy-hold and rent out property while paying little to support the services that protect their property rights as 'owners' (police, fire depts) and give the land added value ( roads , parks , schools , open space ) ..

    People should own their labor and the fruits of that labor moreso than they own the land. Income tax make people that much less motivated to work becuase they are compensated that much less to do so , sales tax claims a portion of business revenue making it that much more difficult for businesses to develop, expand and provide goods ; a significant land tax motivates people to only 'own' what they actively use and not hold land simply to reap the 'rent' value of the property or use the notion of ownership to contribute to their feelings of self-worth.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...good one...ralph

    All good Pete, glad to oblige.

    Quote Originally Posted by X-FXR
    Boy his history doesn't bode well for CA, sucked twice before. Arnold was a joke like he knew anything. Who put ol' Jerry in office...uh unions....how do I know I unfortunately now must belong to one. Who does this business, no not a union anymore, want all unionized labor to vote for? Oh that's right...the next idiot that my fellow statesman voted in. So when the budget cutting comes think he's going to cut those who supported him.....

    I'd have more faith in someone who actually ran a business, who not just managed people but also financially competent. This isn't a one side is correct the other is wrong, put someone that knows how to run a business up against a politician and see who yields a better outcome.

    *O/T
    Like Meg would've been the better choice?

  31. #31
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    Back on topic..So as far as realistic solutions we are where?

    Where for example are all the supporting funds issued to cities and county's for renovations? Fremont for example completely wiped out it's old Centerville stores for a proposed renovation to bring things up to speed for the town yet knowingly entering into the agreement amidst a bad economy was still granted funds which when the city fell short on it's part were subsequently re-directed to other needs in the township.

    Maybe they (the state) should collect those funds back (Fremont's not alone here, hundreds of other counties and cities that accepted funds did similarly while much more needy counties remained bankrupt) and actually hold people responsible?

    Wait, our government holding itself responsible for properly budgeting and managing our state? I must be smoking something because that's absurd? I'm not saying bring in The Donald here, but anyone over 30 and has lived here for easily 10 years can see there is no realistic solution possible.




    California's a tweaker girlfriend who keeps sneaking into your wallet and stealing $20's to get her fix on.





    Maybe we should listen to the crazy guy up North and vote for a 51st state? Hide the wallet and kick the gal to the street and she'll either find someone else to pawn off of or solve her issues.

  32. #32
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    This probably isn't...

    ...even in the USA but it was floating around the email humor mill last year labeled as "CalTrans":
    Massive closure of state parks announced: Coe, China Camp, Annadel, Malakoff, &amp;c.-caltrans.jpg

    I suppose you could title it any state agency and it would fit---perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but sadly more true than false.

    Some research I did earlier this year lead me to conclude that for every California Department of Parks and Recreation employee actually doing something at a park (rangers, maintenance, etc.) there was one pencil-pusher in an office up in Sacramento or somewhere.

    A private business run like this would be bankrupt in no time at all!
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  33. #33
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    ^Ya forgot the Office Manager and Receptionist!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso
    California's tax structure is the problem : very high sales and income taxes amidst very limited land tax effectively taxes workers and businesses to provide services to land owners, who pay in tax what basically amounts to the inflationary appreciation on their land .. The old proposition 13 limits land tax and leaves real estate markets vulnerable to speculators ( who cause the boom and bust in CA real estate ) as well as others who can afford to buy-hold and rent out property while paying little to support the services that protect their property rights as 'owners' (police, fire depts) and give the land added value ( roads , parks , schools , open space ) ..

    People should own their labor and the fruits of that labor more so than they own the land. Income tax make people that much less motivated to work because they are compensated that much less to do so , sales tax claims a portion of business revenue making it that much more difficult for businesses to develop, expand and provide goods ; a significant land tax motivates people to only 'own' what they actively use and not hold land simply to reap the 'rent' value of the property or use the notion of ownership to contribute to their feelings of self-worth.
    That is a good argument, although some economists would say owning land and not selling it amounts to forgoing income, so I'm not sure owning land and renting it is somehow less worthy than working as an income source. (I admit that labor is rightly honored and landlords are unfortunately despised, however.) But here's my question. Before we had Proposition 13, flawed as it is, weren't senior citizens being property-taxed out of their homes while the legislature dithered? I've heard that claim before.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
    If half the people who use Annadel paid to get in, it would not be on the list.

    Wait a minute..........
    Why the hell should I pay to get into any state park, when I already pay for them with my income taxes?
    I have never paid to get into Annadel. I pay for it every week with my pay check.

    I don't think they will end up closing any parks. This is all going to be a bunch of bluster like it was last year. However, because they pulled the state park closure card last year, they government has to raise the ante this year. 'We really mean it this time!!!' Right. No parks were closed last year. Everybody ran around like Chicken Little, screaming the 'sky is falling, the sky is falling'. Remember the threads here on MTBR?
    Read the article carefully. They don't expect to have all of the parks closed until July of 2012. This leaves a lot of negotiation time.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality
    I don't think they will end up closing any parks. This is all going to be a bunch of bluster like it was last year. However, because they pulled the state park closure card last year, they government has to raise the ante this year. 'We really mean it this time!!!' Right. No parks were closed last year. Everybody ran around like Chicken Little, screaming the 'sky is falling, the sky is falling'. Remember the threads here on MTBR?
    Read the article carefully. They don't expect to have all of the parks closed until July of 2012. This leaves a lot of negotiation time.
    I'm beginning to think this too. Thanks for pointing out that nothing will happen until July of 2012. You're right: the delay is a sign that there'll be a compromise, probably one that will keep the parks open.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality
    Everybody ran around like Chicken Little, screaming the 'sky is falling, the sky is falling'. Remember the threads here on MTBR?
    Read the article carefully. They don't expect to have all of the parks closed until July of 2012. This leaves a lot of negotiation time.
    The sky did fall, but all of us were too busy riding the empty trails as a result of the notice to realize it.

    Basically you identified what I was hinting at..it's just fear-mongering political tactics. Get people scared so they rush in to visit while they can to boost the coffers and support when they ordinarily might not. "Who goes in the middle of the summer when it's blazing hot, etc anyhow.." is the initial logic here backed up by their data info and demographic studies. Then later on down the road all they have to say is "All is well".

    Seems to be a widely used tactic these days, too bad most sheeple don't see it and realize like you and I understand..a state park is just that, a state park. My park, your park, our park, all of which is paid with our tax dollars and should be ran in a manner that best represents our funds.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    That is a good argument, although some economists would say owning land and not selling it amounts to forgoing income, so I'm not sure owning land and renting it is somehow less worthy than working as an income source. (I admit that labor is rightly honored and landlords are unfortunately despised, however.) But here's my question. Before we had Proposition 13, flawed as it is, weren't senior citizens being property-taxed out of their homes while the legislature dithered? I've heard that claim before.
    yeah I think that was where prop13 gained momentum , the value of the homes that voters ( seniors included )'owned' were increasing rapidly as california was growing by leaps and bounds. It should be considered though that those people weren't complaining about the increased value of their homes or the profit they would receive if they sold. Anyone who could not pay their tax due to the rapid increase in their home's value could feasibly move somewhere housing was cheaper and use the profit from the sale to pay their future land taxes, while the new owner of the higher valued home would pay the higher tax rate and thus more potently support the public good -- and help to keep the darn parks open !

  39. #39
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    So after Jerry Brown announces a deal that will keep the parks open at the cost of going further into debt, we are supposed to cheer him, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    So after Jerry Brown announces a deal that will keep the parks open at the cost of going further into debt, we are supposed to cheer him, right?
    More likely, he is helping to set up the Democrats to look like heros for saving the state parks, right before the next election cycle.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    I'm confused

    what does "closing" a park mean? At china camp they've been closing the carpark and campground. But you can still ride there.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprunghunt
    But you can still ride there.
    Exactly.

  43. #43
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    Nice. So that we can keep paying outrageous retirement plans and other general featherbedding for state bureaucrats.

    It is not the rejection of $18 tax. It is the politicians bought by unions, inherently volatile sock-the-rich taxation scheme that is susceptible to booms and busts, and budgeting by ballots.[/rant]

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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso
    yeah I think that was where prop13 gained momentum , the value of the homes that voters ( seniors included )'owned' were increasing rapidly as california was growing by leaps and bounds. It should be considered though that those people weren't complaining about the increased value of their homes or the profit they would receive if they sold. Anyone who could not pay their tax due to the rapid increase in their home's value could feasibly move somewhere housing was cheaper and use the profit from the sale to pay their future land taxes, while the new owner of the higher valued home would pay the higher tax rate and thus more potently support the public good -- and help to keep the darn parks open !
    I do not see how being forced to leave your home just because somebody else had decided that it is now more valuable and you should be taxed out of it is fair in any way, form or shape.

    The main problem with prop 13 is commercial properties loopholes.

  45. #45
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    so what is it you do for a living?

    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I don't agree. The facts are otherwise.

    California's 2011 budget is going to be perhaps $85 billion;"proposed General Fund spending is $84.6 billion." New York state's already passed 2011 budget is "approximately $132.5 billion." Yet New York state has about half the population of California. New York City's 2011 proposed budget is $66 billion. That's one city with a budget almost as big as the entire California proposed budget.

    California is near the bottom of all states in terms of state employees per capita (Indiana is said to be the bottom state). We may be the third lowest. The average California state pension is about $25,000 a year, hardly extravagant. (All these stats are easy to find on the Internet.)

    I have no doubt there are state legislators who would spend like drunken sailors if they could, but the state budget is no longer bloated if it ever was.

    Here's one stat worth providing a link to: California's per-capita state spending is lower than Iowa's, Oklahoma's, and North Dakota's. Source: http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comp...p?ind=32&cat=1

    Hardly the stuff on which sailors can get drunk!
    are you a state employee?

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    privatize the parks!

    maybe it's time, imagine the parks being managed by nonprofit orgs, ran by people who use the parks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    I do not see how being forced to leave your home just because somebody else had decided that it is now more valuable and you should be taxed out of it is fair in any way, form or shape.

    The main problem with prop 13 is commercial properties loopholes.
    Bare in mind that the land tax is funding the public good (which is what government is supposed to be servicing after all) and providing that funding in place of sales and income tax. So anyone that is being 'taxed out' not only has a big fat check-load of profit waiting for them if they sell, but also received/receives more income every year that they work/ed because the state relies less on income taxes

    ... alternatively it seem less fair to be taxed out of job by sales tax and taxed out of retirement or home ownership all together by income tax

  48. #48
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    So I wonder what the actual fine would be if you were caught riding your bike in a closed state park? Aren't these public lands? Shouldn't we be allowed access? Oh wait, I forgot we live in Kalifornia.

  49. #49
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    Why do they keep trying to scare people with these park closure threats? Let them try and close the parks. Yeah, give it a try.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by biopacebob1
    are you a state employee?
    Yes.

    I'm not a union member, however, and I work hard.

    I see some waste in state government, but not more than I saw when I worked in the private sector. In fact I think there's less. For instance, we don't get free coffee at work, unlike workers at some private businesses. Our office-supplies cabinet is quite barren.

    We can look forward to a reasonable pension on retiring. That's what all American workers should get, rather than having to rely on social security alone. Slashing retirement for the relatively few remaining Americans who qualify for it is not going to make anyone else's life any better.

    The U.S. is far and away wealthy enough to provide a decent retirement to everyone. But we don't. As we run around the world spending trillions to tell other people how to govern themselves (Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan), we are becoming increasingly Third World at home: a country of conspicuous haves and many unhappy have-nots. We already look more like Latin America, with gated communities for some and run-down apartments for others. Attacking workers' pension benefits just speeds up that process.
    Last edited by imtnbke; 05-14-2011 at 10:43 AM.

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    Since everyone is stating "xyz is the problem", I will add that Public Unions are a huge problem for America and democratic leaning California in particular. Why public employees need unions defeats me, and all of the sweetheart deals negotiated over the years have destroyed us. Teachers unions always say "it's for your kids education", police unions talk about safety for the citizens...always using scare tactics and sob stories so they can keep their 5+% annual raises and retirement packages guaranteeing 90+% of their pay.

    The ordinary citizens (and illegal citizens) are the customers in this case as we pay for all of their salaries. Thankfully sentiment seems to be changing ever so slowly. But think about whether the Union workers have really done everything they could to reduce costs when they talk about cuts to teachers, firefighters, etc. They could always negotiate, but when push comes to shove they choose to shove a few of their members under the bus to protect the benefits of the rest of them, and portray that as a result of lawmakers not being able to negotiate another deal with them or voters not approving a new bill.

    I forget now what this thread was about. Gonna go for a ride.

  52. #52
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    I know this was said last summer when Arnold threatened park closures, but what the h3ll does "closing" a park mean? It's not like they can keep people off the land, so what does it mean?

    Do they stop paying a couple of rangers in China Camp and start paying security personnel instead? wtf? Isn't that just, um, stupid? As in not money-saving at all?

    They definitely aren't talking budget for fencing, since that would be so crazy people would accuse them of being on hallucinogens...

    My two questions are: Anyone know how the oil companies are taxed in this state? They seem to be doing very well overall in the U.S., tax break-to-profit-wise, but I don't know about Cali.

    And: exactly how much money is spent on the parks they are talking about "closing"?
    "I think it's cool how the best line is also usually the most beautiful line" --Kurt F, Tamarancho, Safety Meeting

  53. #53
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    Probably the California State Parks Foundation will have the answer to your second question.

    As for the first, one website says we are "the only oil producing region on the planet where the Oil Companies get away without paying some form of what's called a severance tax, a royalty paid for the right to 'sever' natural resources from the land." Of course there's another point of view about this. Here are two websites (I've only skimmed them and don't know enough to endorse either one):

    http://www.californiaprogressreport....e/?q=node/7925

    http://www.calchamber.com/Headlines/...tudyFinds.aspx

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by yakswak
    Since everyone is stating "xyz is the problem", I will add that Public Unions are a huge problem for America and democratic leaning California in particular. Why public employees need unions defeats me, and all of the sweetheart deals negotiated over the years have destroyed us. Teachers unions always say "it's for your kids education", police unions talk about safety for the citizens...always using scare tactics and sob stories so they can keep their 5+% annual raises and retirement packages guaranteeing 90+% of their pay.

    The ordinary citizens (and illegal citizens) are the customers in this case as we pay for all of their salaries. Thankfully sentiment seems to be changing ever so slowly. But think about whether the Union workers have really done everything they could to reduce costs when they talk about cuts to teachers, firefighters, etc. They could always negotiate, but when push comes to shove they choose to shove a few of their members under the bus to protect the benefits of the rest of them, and portray that as a result of lawmakers not being able to negotiate another deal with them or voters not approving a new bill.

    I forget now what this thread was about. Gonna go for a ride.
    The prison guard union has it good too.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...ee/?test=faces
    :wq

  55. #55
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    Quoting Fox News opinion pages as some kind of fact? Thanks for the chuckle.

  56. #56
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    Basicaly I give you $20 for a loaf of bread and some milk.

    You come back from the store w/ milk only and no money. Where is my bread and change? Spent it on this and that you say?

    I ride illegal trails 5 or 6 rides a month for the last 20 years in Marin/Oakland/Coast so what is the big deal? Less rangers on payroll, better poachable trails for a hardcore like me with less nagging from hikers ( even though I am courteous and respectful as I get my earfull ). I have been riding these trails since BMX in the 70's and this is MAY be the best news yet.

  57. #57
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    Possibly tangential, definitely stolen and maybe irrelevant but I thought I'd post it anyway...

    "...Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR
    and PBS crashed the stock market, ruined home values, wiped out half
    of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of
    Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
    Yeah... me neither..."

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Quoting Fox News opinion pages as some kind of fact? Thanks for the chuckle.
    Sorry, buddy, I took it from the first link where I found it. It actually originated from the super right-wing Wall Street Journal.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...510530398.html
    :wq

  59. #59
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    k, thanks

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    Carl Hungus,

    That is not where my heads at when I ride in the woods. Or on this Forum. Since we are imagining things, what were the rules on these parks in say, the year 1678. Can I ride that trail? Yes I can. And I will. I may even pay a ticket here or there ( I don't seem to get caught though ). I would rather pay a ticket then a 30 year pension.

  61. #61
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    Sorry, THAN a pension-I guess they SHOULD pay those teachers more. Ha,ha

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Quoting Fox News opinion pages as some kind of fact? Thanks for the chuckle.
    Dismissing a fact because you do not like the messenger. Thanks for the chuckle.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus
    Possibly tangential, definitely stolen and maybe irrelevant but I thought I'd post it anyway...

    "...Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR
    and PBS crashed the stock market, ruined home values, wiped out half
    of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of
    Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
    Yeah... me neither..."
    Yes, I do remember how liberal ideas of backing mortgages with taxpayers money crashed the housing market, how unsustainable projections for public employee pension funds investment returns had been sold to corrupt politicians and got us on the hook for hundreds of billions. We also remember how more then half of population pays no taxes but gets to vote on spending.

  64. #64
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    I really don't see how any of this affects the price of admission to a park that is closed. It is probably a done deal so how can you make it work to your advantage? Berms probably. Big round berms on illegal singletrack that most riders are too scared to poach. Blame game is unwinnable unless you are a leader-haven't seen one in a while. But there was a really FAST rider I was trying to keep up with yesterday ( and I am fast ) and all this was out of my head. Now that was a fun/challenging ride.

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    china camp has apparently been "closed" for half the week already.

    I didn't notice until I saw that there weren't any cars in the carpark. I was too busy riding.

  66. #66
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    open your mind and the truth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Dismissing a fact because you do not like the messenger. Thanks for the chuckle.
    Fact? This is an "opinion" editorial article written by a conservative writer (OpinionJournal.com...the conservative arm of the Wall Street Journal). Just think there are more reputable sources for information that actually show both sides. However, if you want to receive your 'facts' from these channels, regurgitate away.
    Last edited by squashyo; 05-15-2011 at 10:02 AM. Reason: too harsh

  67. #67
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    How about this...

    No doubt about it; Jerry and crew are using park closures to get our attention---they've succeeded!

    Gov. Brown may go down in history as a latter-day King Solomon; the parks being the baby in dispute.

    I am absolutely in agreement that cuts need to be made to all bureaucracies at all levels of government---but here I want to propose a simple way to increase funding for the parks:

    A one cent per gallon tax on gasoline (.0025% at $4/gal) would cover this round of budget cuts more than ten times over.

    A one percent gasoline tax would completely cover the parks budget with zero user fees required.

    Comments?
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  68. #68
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    How about reducing spending somewhere else instead of increasing taxes again?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Fact? This is an "opinion" editorial article written by a conservative writer (OpinionJournal.com...the conservative arm of the Wall Street Journal). Just think there are more reputable sources for information that actually show both sides. However, if you want to receive your 'facts' from these channels, regurgitate away.
    I don't see any truth, just your dismissal of something based on its source (even though it's a credible source, was picked up by the HuffPost as well, etc) and you don't have any argument or facts to refute the claims it makes. Forget D or R, people like you are part of the problem.
    :wq

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    How about reducing spending somewhere else instead of increasing taxes again?
    We could.

    What would you prefer to cut? The Calif. budget already is lean. Again, New York = $132 billion, ours = $85 billion. And we have twice as many people.

    It's true that some pensions are unsustainable, but they tend to be city and county pensions for public safety employees, which are high. Except for the CHP and prison guards, state pensions aren't that high. Also, they're largely funded by CALPERS investments, not our tax dollars.

    We could cut the "bureaucracy" but Calif. is already near the bottom in state employees per 100,000 population. We could cut social services, meaning no home assistance for the severely disabled and no housing for special-needs kids whose parents have died. We could cut the court system, making it difficult to prosecute criminals. We could cut parks, roads, mosquito abatement, water treatment, sewerage, canals, dams, building inspections, regulation of utilities and other monopolies, and pest control.

    We could end up like Italy, where I used to live. The state is weak and provides pretty lousy service. Compared to here, institutions are corrupt and, to generalize, people are dishonest. Tax evasion is a national sport and people laugh at parking tickets. When that quake happened a couple of years ago in L'Aquila, a new hospital collapsed. I bet corruption and various forms of dishonesty were involved.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    We could.

    What would you prefer to cut? The Calif. budget already is lean. Again, New York = $132 billion, ours = $85 billion. And we have twice as many people...

    .
    California does everything expensive. Our prisoners cost about twice the national average to feed and house even after adjusting for cost of living. We also still have high recidivism rates and prison violence in exchange for the money we spend. CA legislators are the highest paid in the nation -- so high you could cut their salaries 20% and still be the highest paid in the nation.

    We spend more to maintain highways and fight fires, without anything to show for it. And CA has about 1/4 of all families on public assistance in the nation (and half of those are in Los Angeles County), and among the lowest success rates in getting families off public assistance.

    About the only bargain in California is the State Parks System, with management cost per acre less than the national average, although that is because the state stopped managing the parks years ago and just left the gates open on unsupervised/unmanaged parks. Now they are closing the gates.

    Maybe if they eliminated the 'Climate Change Studies Program' and long term research units of the state parks bureaucracy there would be more money for parks operations.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    We also remember how more then half of population pays no taxes but gets to vote on spending.
    I keep forgetting that folks outside of the US post on here once in a while.

    Seriously though, which half of the population aren't paying taxes but are deciding our future?
    Last edited by Entrenador; 05-15-2011 at 01:04 PM.

  73. #73
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    prison guards

    ...don't get a whole lotta money for the work that they have to do, or at least to be ready for. They do make good money, but they have shite thrown at them often (figuratively and literally speaking), and a whole lot of miserable baggage to deal with. In the case of the guards, I'd like to see them keep their salaries and pensions, but start closing a few prisons by reducing crime. It's time for California to legalize and tax weed. Sorry, digression...

    Unions provide job security for a lot of hard working people, and many of these hard working people would be squeezed out illegally if not for their union support. I don't earn enough money (as a unionized employee, no less) to hire a discrimination lawyer if I were to ever need one, and I will likely be forced to rely on union backing in the next few years to keep my employment.
    Last edited by Entrenador; 05-15-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  74. #74
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    There are many things we could do to make government more efficient. The passage of Proposition 11 and the defeat of Propositions 20 and 27 mean an end to gerrymandered state legislative and congressional seats. By ending Soviet-style party entrenchment in Sacramento and California's delegation in Congress, those great reforms (opposed by the California League of Conservation Voters, to its eternal disgrace) are likely to bring in a crop of lawmakers who are less ideological, less beholden to intransigent unions or antiabortion Bible-thumpers, and more interested in solutions.
    Last edited by imtnbke; 05-15-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    I keep forgetting that folks outside of the US post on here once in a while.

    Seriously though, which half of the population aren't paying taxes but are deciding our future?
    I think Axe may be thinking of federal and state income taxes. Everyone pays sales and property tax, however. Even if you rent, you pay property taxes through the cost of your rental.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    No doubt about it; Jerry and crew are using park closures to get our attention---they've succeeded!

    Gov. Brown may go down in history as a latter-day King Solomon; the parks being the baby in dispute.

    I am absolutely in agreement that cuts need to be made to all bureaucracies at all levels of government---but here I want to propose a simple way to increase funding for the parks:

    A one cent per gallon tax on gasoline (.0025% at $4/gal) would cover this round of budget cuts more than ten times over.

    A one percent gasoline tax would completely cover the parks budget with zero user fees required.

    Comments?
    What kinds of problems could we solve by seeing your suggestion and raising you to an even nickel per gallon?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    ...don't get a whole lotta money for the work that they have to do, or at least to be ready for. They do make good money, but they have shite thrown at them often (figuratively and literally speaking), and a whole lot of miserable baggage to deal with. In the case of the guards, I'd like to see them keep their salaries and pensions, but start closing a few prisons by reducing crime. It's time for California to legalize and tax weed. Sorry, digression...

    Unions provide job security for a lot of hard working people, and many of these hard working people would be squeezed out illegally if not for their union support. I don't earn enough money (as a unionized employee, no less) to hire a discrimination lawyer if I were to ever need one, and I will likely be forced to rely on union backing in the next few years to keep my employment.
    I agree with all of this. Prison guard sounds nice until you have the 3 a.m. shift Christmas Day on San Quentin's death row. The guards' pensions may be unsustainable, but the job is not a gravy train. As for unions generally, they can generate featherbedding and win ridiculous work rules from lax employers (like the Muni drivers in San Francisco have managed to do). But unions probably created America's middle class and their weakening is helping to head us toward a Latin America-style society, with large income inequality and the better off living behind high walls with guards. (We call them gated communities.) Ironically, places like Brazil (a country I know pretty well) are developing a large middle class and providing better retirement and food security, while we're heading the other way.

    A country with a tiny middle class cannot be a well-to-do country. Its rich may enjoy cheap labor and low prices generally, but the country itself will not be wealthy. Its our choice which way we want to go.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    I keep forgetting that folks outside of the US post on here once in a while.

    Seriously though, which half of the population aren't paying taxes but are deciding our future?
    You are apparently too lazy to look at a user profile - or to use Google to check some facts before questioning them. Are you a public employee, by any chance?

    I grew up in the Soviet Union, which gives me some perspective, but I do send my paycheck to California Franchise Tax board all right..

    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I think Axe may be thinking of federal and state income taxes. Everyone pays sales and property tax, however. Even if you rent, you pay property taxes through the cost of your rental.
    Indeed. A problem there is that most people do not notice how money are being taken from them - unless they have to send a hefty check. Payroll tax, sales tax, are just there. That is why an extra vehicle registration fee, or real estate tax for home owners (not renters) when you actually part with your cash, is so disliked.

    Personally, I think we should switch everything to VAT instead of corporate, payroll and personal, maybe a bit of wealth tax to placate the class warfare crowd.
    Last edited by Axe; 05-16-2011 at 01:14 AM.

  79. #79
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    Why is it that tax increases are always framed as some tiny incremental charge that nobody will notice, but when referring to tax cuts it becomes a binary issue of parks closing, babies dying, houses burning down, and criminals roaming the streets?

    Choose some sectors and give them a 0.01% cut. I won't feel bad if the roads to my parks get 0.01% rougher.

    Edit: I meant spending cuts.
    Last edited by beanbag; 05-15-2011 at 10:25 PM.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Why is it that tax increases are always framed as some tiny incremental charge that nobody will notice, but when referring to tax cuts it becomes a binary issue of parks closing, babies dying, houses burning down, and criminals roaming the streets?

    Choose some sectors and give them a 0.01% cut. I won't feel bad if the roads to my parks get 0.01% rougher.
    Creeping socialism is an easy sell. Play on peoples compassion and they will do anything.

    It is easy to agree with socialism - it just feels good. Free handouts. Free housing. Free food. Doesn't that sound good? And the recipents are always oh so deserving.

    When reality sets it, and the budgets aren't there, us taxpayers are made to look like Ebinezer Scrooge's; and therefore we settle for the incrimental and always encroaching socialism.
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  81. #81
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    Hits close to home

    I laid of 3 workers 1 1/2 years ago because of high workers comp/ insurance/ and I am a one man show. I turn half my potential jobs away. I have too much work people. I could put 3 Californians to work TOMORROW. I have customers waiting. But this state tax, payroll tax, and worker comp situation is harsh. Make any excuse you want, but I refuse to take on the risk for a diminishing reward. F*** it. I am happy and un-stressed as a Tradesman dealing with one customer at a time. I could pay 3 guys about $45,000 each, isn't that sad? I am just one dude with a pickup truck. How much is CA losing by me not employing those workers? I don't care, I laugh all the way to the bank and push bums out of the way-Although I do use alot of Advil w/out helpers.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Build away, then. Check out what happened to a Marin gentlemen who did just that. Huge fines, convictions, etc.
    He's not exactly sorry about it though.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brah
    He's not exactly sorry about it though.
    I feel a bit sheepish bringing him up because I don't want to sound like I'm morally condemning him. I'm not. All I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't want to be spending $375 an hour (possibly while sitting in the pokey) on my lawyer as he/she negotiates my plea agreement while others are out riding the clandestine trails I built. Talk about needless and thankless self-sacrifice.

  84. #84
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    Soooo... back to my question: what does "closing" a park mean? How does it work?

    Instead of paying rangers, do they intend to pay cops overtime or private security agents to write trespassing tickets?

    Will they just shut the parking lot gates and leave the place to the meth heads?
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie
    I laid of 3 workers 1 1/2 years ago because of high workers comp/ insurance/ and I am a one man show. I turn half my potential jobs away. I have too much work people. I could put 3 Californians to work TOMORROW. I have customers waiting. But this state tax, payroll tax, and worker comp situation is harsh. Make any excuse you want, but I refuse to take on the risk for a diminishing reward. F*** it. I am happy and un-stressed as a Tradesman dealing with one customer at a time. I could pay 3 guys about $45,000 each, isn't that sad? I am just one dude with a pickup truck. How much is CA losing by me not employing those workers? I don't care, I laugh all the way to the bank and push bums out of the way-Although I do use alot of Advil w/out helpers.
    That's something few people seem to follow. It's easy to track businesses, or jobs leaving this state due to the over-regulation, but how many businesses out there never get started in the first place as a result? It's BS. There is legislation making its way through the system right now that would require all business to provide TEN sick days a year to ALL employees. There's wording in the law that limits employer's rights to discipline employee's for any reason following the use of said sick days. It's bull - all this stuff sounds really great until the people who provide the jobs (like you) decide it's too expensive, stressful, too much of a pain in the butt to deal with, and the jobs go away. But then socialism gets another push - we need 99 weeks of unemployment for example.
    :wq

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc
    But then socialism gets another push - we need 99 weeks of unemployment for example.
    You realise most of the jobs are going to china? communist china. They have welfare there too. And mountainbikes.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie
    I laid of 3 workers 1 1/2 years ago because of high workers comp/ insurance/ and I am a one man show. I turn half my potential jobs away. I have too much work people. I could put 3 Californians to work TOMORROW. I have customers waiting. But this state tax, payroll tax, and worker comp situation is harsh. Make any excuse you want, but I refuse to take on the risk for a diminishing reward. F*** it. I am happy and un-stressed as a Tradesman dealing with one customer at a time. I could pay 3 guys about $45,000 each, isn't that sad? I am just one dude with a pickup truck. How much is CA losing by me not employing those workers? I don't care, I laugh all the way to the bank and push bums out of the way-Although I do use alot of Advil w/out helpers.
    I completely agree that running a small business is risky business; the liability one assumes when hiring others is enormous & preventative. But your example fails demand side economics. Specifically, it doesn't work because the demand for the work is still there (your clients still want things done), and they can take the job to someone else -- either another lone gunman or someone who took the risk and hired more people. No jobs are lost in this example, only the number of jobs you choose to take on.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc
    ...until the people who provide the jobs (like you) decide it's too expensive, stressful, too much of a pain in the butt to deal with, and the jobs go away.
    Consumers & demand provide jobs, not employers. Employers are just the middle men.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    You are apparently too lazy to look at a user profile - or to use Google to check some facts before questioning them. Are you a public employee, by any chance?

    I grew up in the Soviet Union, which gives me some prospective, but I do send my paycheck to California Franchise Tax board all right..
    My "outside of the US" comment was meant to suggest that you were talking about another country all together -- somewhere where half the population votes but pays no taxes. This is plainly not the case in CA or anywhere else in the US.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprunghunt
    You realise most of the jobs are going to china? communist china. They have welfare there too. And mountainbikes.
    " width="549">

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    This is plainly not the case in CA or anywhere else in the US.
    I suggest Google. Top result for a simple search query yields one blog. You can find others.

    "Finally, the Joint Committee on Taxation estimates that approximately 51 percent of all households, which includes filers and non-filers, had either zero, or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009.".

    And I have already clarified, for those for whom obvious things are not so obvious, what taxes and fees I have mentioned (in a third point of a long sentence). Sorry, no legalese accuracy for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    Consumers & demand provide jobs, not employers. Employers are just the middle men.
    Really? So everybody can just get together and start servicing the consumers?

    I remember that argument. At my mandatory Scientific Communism class in Moscow State U. in the 80s. I got an "A". What was your grade?

    I guessed it indeed worked. In a hunter-gatherer society.
    Last edited by Axe; 05-16-2011 at 01:29 AM.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Quoting Fox News opinion pages as some kind of fact? Thanks for the chuckle.
    my thoughts exactly. What is this world coming to
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  93. #93
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe

    I grew up in the Soviet Union, which gives me some perspective


    Perspective- Yes Credibility on arguments- No
    Did the Soviet Union have prop13?
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  94. #94
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Unions are bad.
    Why would anyone want to provide a dignified employment and retirement, reward loyalty, insure fair and safe working environments, and create jobs that are secure and strengthen the middle class. Freaking Commies.
    If I can't have it nobody should. who needs teachers or public safety employees? Pot holes on the streets usually fix themselves and my water I use for the my over priced non-free market/fair trade coffee and my after ride showers comes from the Lord ol Mighty, who is not a union member,and the prison guard job should be a volunteer job, who wouldn't want that sweet gig?
    Got to go Faux news is running a special on how unions are bringing down the USof A and how unions were secretly behind the banks, wall street and the real estate market.
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Unions are bad.
    Why would anyone want to provide a dignified employment and retirement, reward loyalty, insure fair and safe working environments, and create jobs that are secure and strengthen the middle class. Freaking Commies.
    If I can't have it nobody should. who needs teachers or public safety employees? Pot holes on the streets usually fix themselves and my water I use for the my over priced non-free market/fair trade coffee and my after ride showers comes from the Lord ol Mighty, who is not a union member,and the prison guard job should be a volunteer job, who wouldn't want that sweet gig?
    Got to go Faux news is running a special on how unions are bringing down the USof A and how unions were secretly behind the banks, wall street and the real estate market.
    Didn't Adolf Hitler blame the same things on the Jews?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55
    Didn't Adolf Hitler blame the same things on the Jews?
    what things do you refer to?
    Clever to use Hitler analogies, did you think of that yourself ? oh wait the teabaggers beat you to it
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  97. #97
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    Dang. So much for civil discourse. I think that I'm going to get a road bike,... and some pancakes.
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  98. #98
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    Don't need to spend a zillion dollars on trail maintenance.... Get non profit groups to trade off and do some of the work. Don't have to buy a brand new, flex fuel, F150 for park rangers, you know. Also, doesn't cost an arm and leg to fill a pot hole either. I'm sure we can save a lot of money if we put everything on the table. The govt is trying to shut down needed / wanted services to prop up a bunch of do-nothings. case in point--> Politician -> so they don't want to pay more taxes... We'll see how they like it when we close --->
    Anderson Marsh SHP
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    Also, don't blame the people for not wanting to pay another fee... Blame the clowns that got you there in the first place.






  99. #99
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Unions are bad.
    Why would anyone want to provide a dignified employment and retirement, reward loyalty, insure fair and safe working environments, and create jobs that are secure and strengthen the middle class. Freaking Commies.
    There is a big frigging difference between unions and public employee unions. Public employees are employed by people, not by companies. They do not need protection against the evils of capitalism. All they do is breed corruption after being allowed to participate in the political process.

    Comparing SEIU running political attack ads to benefit a politician that cuts a sweet deal for them with unions that had been fighting for living wage and safe conditions at factories a century ago is a patently dishonest demagoguery. Right out of corrupt politicians playbook.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Perspective- Yes Credibility on arguments- No
    Did the Soviet Union have prop13?
    Yes, perspective. The one that you do not have.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    There is a big frigging difference between unions and public employee unions. Public employees are employed by people, not by companies. They do not need protection against the evils of capitalism. All they do is breed corruption after being allowed to participate in the political process.
    Oh, honestly. You managed to escape the Soviet Union physically, but I think the Soviet mindset has left its imprint on you. You've traded one set of ideological certainties for another. Unions are valuable in the public sector to stop agencies' abuses of their employees, for example. There are public entities that are just as vicious and brutal in their treatment of their workers as Mr. Burns in "The Simpsons." I say this as someone who is not a union member.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    I completely agree that running a small business is risky business; the liability one assumes when hiring others is enormous & preventative. But your example fails demand side economics. Specifically, it doesn't work because the demand for the work is still there (your clients still want things done), and they can take the job to someone else -- either another lone gunman or someone who took the risk and hired more people. No jobs are lost in this example, only the number of jobs you choose to take on.
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  102. #102
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    This may add to the discussion. Or maybe not.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Massive closure of state parks announced: Coe, China Camp, Annadel, Malakoff, &amp;c.-wiley.jpg  


  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Perspective- Yes Credibility on arguments- No
    Did the Soviet Union have prop13?
    You can do better than that For Axe credits he pointed to the references and no one arguing here with an expert ambition.

    Perspective however is quite important here. In "social" country the politicians have only one thing to trade - idea. Hence they are getting very creative with it. It's no coincident that many from the eastern countries noticing same theme in political action. We have seen it, and this stuff just too transparent.

    But hey, it's democracy there, so if crowd will vote themselves into something different, so let's it be. Moved across the world, it's much easier to look at the world at whole and not being attached to the single spot. So far Cali still best place to live, if this gets changed, simply Thanks for all the fish
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk
    You can do better than that
    I am a lazy public union employee though. I did not have to
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Oh, honestly. You managed to escape the Soviet Union physically, but I think the Soviet mindset has left its imprint on you. You've traded one set of ideological certainties for another. Unions are valuable in the public sector to stop agencies' abuses of their employees, for example. There are public entities that are just as vicious and brutal in their treatment of their workers as Mr. Burns in "The Simpsons." I say this as someone who is not a union member.
    It's very simple really. So there is a problem with Mr Burns. Union got organized to fend him off. Resources and peoples assigned to do that led by Homer. Now Mr Burns is Mr Nice and all is fine. What Homer going to do now? He need to maintain his relevance. He need to make a problem he supposed to solve... Decades down the road, Homer is worse than Mr Burns, but hey, he is a good guy who fought evil, aren't he?

    There is saying: With a good intentions paved road to Hell.

    Oh, and BTW for escaping part. It could have been Hollywood drama style 30-50 years ago, but now it's simply matter of preference/education and life style choice.
    Last edited by Stalk; 05-16-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    I am a lazy public union employee though. I did not have to
    Actually, sadly you are spot on on the problem. What union brings in security it takes away in motivation.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    There is a big frigging difference between unions and public employee unions. Public employees are employed by people, not by companies. They do not need protection against the evils of capitalism. All they do is breed corruption after being allowed to participate in the political process.

    Comparing SEIU running political attack ads to benefit a politician that cuts a sweet deal for them with unions that had been fighting for living wage and safe conditions at factories a century ago is a patently dishonest demagoguery. Right out of corrupt politicians playbook.



    Yes, perspective. The one that you do not have.
    SEIU uses money that is a willing contribution from their members (COPE) for political agenda. True.
    But why can't/shouldn't a voting American Citizen use their money to influence the political landscape. It is done else where through nation. NRA, AARP, Sierra Club, League of Women voters, NAACP are some that come to mind. Union dues, (the taxpayer’s money) can not be used for such campaigns. Are you suggesting that civil servants voices be excluded from politics?

    As for a perspective I have one. Not the same as yours though. I was born here in CA, I took for granted the freedoms and liberties for a long time, I also took for granted that my streets were paved, my water made it to my house, the fire department would show up for a fire and that the police would keep my streets safe. Not anymore I have my perspective. But more than that I take action, I am not just an arm chair activist. But as for MTBR I much rather think of clever one liners or find funny but relevant GIFS or posters: D
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk
    Actually, sadly you are spot on on the problem. What union brings in security it takes away in motivation.
    yes very true. But with the new work force coming to the forefront security is not as big of a priority.Motivation is on the rise and the old way of thinking is declining (not gone yet though). The new work force seems more concerned competitiveness and compensation rather than security. This is a good thing now the problem is how to retain the good employees, especially when wages and benefits are under attack.
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk
    It's very simple really. So there is a problem with Mr Burns. Union got organized to fend him off. Resources and peoples assigned to do that led by Homer. Now Mr Burns is Mr Nice and all is fine. What Homer going to do now? He need to maintain his relevance. He need to make a problem he supposed to solve... Decades down the road, Homer is worse than Mr Burns, but hey, he is a good guy who fought evil, aren't he?

    There is saying: With a good deeds paved road to Hell.

    Oh, and BTW for escaping part. It could have been Hollywood drama style 30-50 years ago, but now it's simply matter of preference/education and life style choice.
    thats good stuff. the solution is not the get rid of the unions or take away what was fought for, rather it is to re focus the unions and solve the new problems.
    I am done now. Time to help reform healthcare so we all can afford it and the union employees do not cost as much to the taxpayers.
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  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke

    People didn't want to pay an extra $18 on their vehicle registration. This is the result.
    You are wrong. These cuts are the result of years of over spending and borrowing. Even if that prop passed, parks would still be on the chopping block. In the end here, the politicians are using this to get you to pay more in taxes because this is very visible to the public. Do you think they will target that obscure state agency that is not visible to the public, but cost more to run? Nope....

    People said no to a new tax again (they did it in 2009 with prop1A) because they see that their money gets wasted and the state always keeps saying they need more.

    Oddly enough, the state just redid the prison guard's contract. They didn't save any money, they just moved things around, gave them more vacation, and let them bank vacation. That's going to cost you and me a lot down the road.

    Also understand the parks are less than 1% of overall general fund spending. So cutting parks will not make a dent in this SPENDING problem the state has at all.

    So to put it in a household example, to keep your house cleaner.........
    Are you going to stop the kids from running in with muddy feet?
    Or, Try to figure out how to keep the dust from blowing in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso
    California's tax structure is the problem : very high sales and income taxes amidst very limited land tax effectively taxes workers and businesses to provide services to land owners, who pay in tax what basically amounts to the inflationary appreciation on their land .. The old proposition 13 limits land tax and leaves real estate markets vulnerable to speculators ( who cause the boom and bust in CA real estate ) as well as others who can afford to buy-hold and rent out property while paying little to support the services that protect their property rights as 'owners' (police, fire depts) and give the land added value ( roads , parks , schools , open space ) ..

    People should own their labor and the fruits of that labor moreso than they own the land. Income tax make people that much less motivated to work becuase they are compensated that much less to do so , sales tax claims a portion of business revenue making it that much more difficult for businesses to develop, expand and provide goods ; a significant land tax motivates people to only 'own' what they actively use and not hold land simply to reap the 'rent' value of the property or use the notion of ownership to contribute to their feelings of self-worth.
    Read your history!!!!........It used to be this way BEFORE Prop 13. Taxing the land for what it's worth. People had a house, they paid on it, then they couldn't afford the property taxes as it kept getting jacked up from market forces and tax increases. This is the reason Prop 13 came about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi
    ^Ya forgot the Office Manager and Receptionist!
    The Office Manager and receptionist were on a state sponsored fact finding trip in Maui. So, they missed the picture. I think the receptionist missed her period that month tooo
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Quoting Fox News opinion pages as some kind of fact? Thanks for the chuckle.
    The story was originally from the Wall Street Journal. Numbers are numbers. How would you like to be able to bank your vacation and never loose it? The new deal the prison guards got lets them do that.
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  114. #114
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    The New York Times reports that the park closures, if implemented, will save $33 million in the next two years. "[L]ast week the governor announced plans to close several state parks to save $33 million in the next two years."

    The same article reports that California's tax revenue will be $6.6 billion greater than anticipated in the same next two years.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/us...fornia.html?hp

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    $33,000,000/6,600,000,000=>.5%

    Sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    I completely agree that running a small business is risky business; the liability one assumes when hiring others is enormous & preventative. But your example fails demand side economics. Specifically, it doesn't work because the demand for the work is still there (your clients still want things done), and they can take the job to someone else -- either another lone gunman or someone who took the risk and hired more people. No jobs are lost in this example, only the number of jobs you choose to take on.
    Your reasoning makes sense, but I don't completely agree that nothing was lost. Because hoolie cannot take on any additional work, the supply is less than what it could be. As we learned in economics class, less supply=higher cost, assuming the demand stays the same. This will most definitely affect what the clients choose to do, as their alternative may just as well be to do nothing when they see the higher cost (monetary or otherwise). Even though they can find somebody to do the same work, they may choose not to do so. True, a few clients lost wouldn't mean much for the economy, but I know for a fact that hoolie isn't the only one turning down work as a result of government regulation. As a whole, this results in a net loss of jobs because of the decrease in supply.

    I'm not saying that regulation is wrong per se, but government regulations most definitely slow down job growth. Then again, I am no economics expert, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    The New York Times reports that the park closures, if implemented, will save $33 million in the next two years. "[L]ast week the governor announced plans to close several state parks to save $33 million in the next two years."

    The same article reports that California's tax revenue will be $6.6 billion greater than anticipated in the same next two years.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/us...fornia.html?hp
    Quote Originally Posted by monkei
    $33,000,000/6,600,000,000=>.5%

    Sad.
    Now I know why terrorists become terrorists. Sad is not right. Criminal conspiracy is a phrase that comes to mind.

  118. #118
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    I guess you are saying just as many people are working now as @yrs ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador
    I completely agree that running a small business is risky business; the liability one assumes when hiring others is enormous & preventative. But your example fails demand side economics. Specifically, it doesn't work because the demand for the work is still there (your clients still want things done), and they can take the job to someone else -- either another lone gunman or someone who took the risk and hired more people. No jobs are lost in this example, only the number of jobs you choose to take on.
    I should have known I was wrong before I posted my personal experience. Who needs a business owner in CA? Magic money tree works way better.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie
    I guess you are saying just as many people are working now as @yrs ago?
    You basically said that there are less jobs out there because the cost to hire more people is too high. Yes? If you're able to find more work than you can do alone, then those jobs that you cannot do will go to go to other people that do the same kind of work you do; there's more than one pro in the phone book (or Yelp!?).

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg
    Dang. So much for civil discourse. I think that I'm going to get a road bike,... and some pancakes.
    Yep. Chips, cheese and some beer. I'm out, this has gotten way off topic. Way to moderate.

  121. #121
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    I came here to see how people were going to help protect Annadel and China Camp from vandalism and apparently I wandered into the comments section of the MarinIJ. Yikes.

    Anyone want to start a trash patrol?
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  122. #122
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    Here's a map of all the park closures:

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...C17.929688&z=6

  123. #123
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    Whats interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by iSlowpoke
    Here's a map of all the park closures:

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...C17.929688&z=6
    Is whos assembly and senatorial districts the parks are in.

  124. #124
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    It won't surprise me if most (or even all) of the state parks stay open. The biennial $6.6 billion in newfound revenue is, as Monkei points out, 200 times the amount The New York Times says the park closures will save. Also, the Legislature and the Governor's staff will take note that all of this disruption and loss of public amenities will save a mere $33 million biennially. That's probably the same amount that the state pays for 125 lawyers over two years (although please don't roll your eyes at that; they do many useful things).

    Still, we need to monitor the status of individual parks we care about, like Henry Coe, Samuel P. Taylor, and China Camp.

  125. #125
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    I plan to ride these parks

    If the state priority is open parks, I will ride OPEN parks, otherwise there should be less dog doo and trash to navigate. It is sad to think of where the money goes, but I think many aspects of these parks will be O.K. with many less people. The camping factor is a bummer as far as traveling on the cheap.
    Last edited by hoolie; 05-17-2011 at 11:00 AM.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Yes.

    I'm not a union member, however, and I work hard.

    I see some waste in state government, but not more than I saw when I worked in the private sector. In fact I think there's less. For instance, we don't get free coffee at work, unlike workers at some private businesses. Our office-supplies cabinet is quite barren.

    We can look forward to a reasonable pension on retiring. That's what all American workers should get, rather than having to rely on social security alone. Slashing retirement for the relatively few remaining Americans who qualify for it is not going to make anyone else's life any better.

    The U.S. is far and away wealthy enough to provide a decent retirement to everyone. But we don't. As we run around the world spending trillions to tell other people how to govern themselves (Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan), we are becoming increasingly Third World at home: a country of conspicuous haves and many unhappy have-nots. We already look more like Latin America, with gated communities for some and run-down apartments for others. Attacking workers' pension benefits just speeds up that process.
    "I'm not a union member, however, and I work hard". LOL...posting here on BF while at work? Sorry, us out here in the private sector view the vast majority of state employees as over paid, given way too many "sick" and holiday days off, and who enjoy overly generous health and retirement benefits. The unions and their democrat legislators have allowed retirement benefits to spiral out of control...as in CalPers is going broke and in need of a massive cash infusion in 18 months..a ticking time bomb. My neighbor just retired with the state as a "analyst" after 20 years. She is pulling down $76,000 a year for a pension with full health benefits..not bad for just a high school education. With slightly over 300,000 state employees on the dole, we need serious layoffs and wage/pension reductions. Hopefully the party is over for this tax payer abuse.

    As of the year 2005-2006 the CA DO Finance reckoned there were about 329, 000 state employees, up 115,000 from 1976-1977. See http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/BUD_DOCS/charts/chart-m.pdf

    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_s...#ixzz1Mos3IhCZ
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  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi
    All good Pete, glad to oblige.




    *O/T
    Like Meg would've been the better choice?
    FYI, Meg created thousands of jobs...and just how many jobs has Jerry created? Answer: none. He's never been outside the protected government sector. Guy is a clueless retread from the 70's.."Moonbeam" indeed...owned and bought by all the unions and lefties in this State.
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  128. #128
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    i've worked in the private industry all my life (at fortune 100 companies in the "high-tech" sector), and its the biggest form of socialism ever: people who are not employable anywhere else are making good money doing essentially nothing. while the relative distribution of morons may shift depending on which organization w/in the company (i.e. fewer morons in engineering, product development, more in back-office functions such as finance, IT, HR, etc), there is a healthy layer of fat+stupidity in the private sector...

    exceptions to this might be startups, and other smaller outfits where its too difficult to camp out as overhead.


    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    "I'm not a union member, however, and I work hard". LOL...posting here on BF while at work? Sorry, us out here in the private sector view the vast majority of state employees as over paid, given way too many "sick" and holiday days off, and who enjoy overly generous health and retirement benefits. The unions and their democrat legislators have allowed retirement benefits to spiral out of control...as in CalPers is going broke and in need of a massive cash infusion in 18 months..a ticking time bomb. My neighbor just retired with the state as a "analyst" after 20 years. She is pulling down $76,000 a year for a pension with full health benefits..not bad for just a high school education. With slightly over 300,000 state employees on the dole, we need serious layoffs and wage/pension reductions. Hopefully the party is over for this tax payer abuse.

    As of the year 2005-2006 the CA DO Finance reckoned there were about 329, 000 state employees, up 115,000 from 1976-1977. See http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/BUD_DOCS/charts/chart-m.pdf

    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_s...#ixzz1Mos3IhCZ
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    "I'm not a union member, however, and I work hard". LOL...posting here on BF while at work?
    Who are you to say whether I work hard or not? I doubt you're in the adjoining office to observe me. And what makes you presume to know what hours I work?

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656
    i've worked in the private industry all my life (at fortune 100 companies in the "high-tech" sector), and its the biggest form of socialism ever: people who are not employable anywhere else are making good money doing essentially nothing.
    I've had a similar experience in the private sector: bureaucracy, inefficiency, and much thumb-twiddling and useless memo-writing. Also, the brilliant economist Bryan Caplan, who is not any kind of knee-jerk liberal or apologist for public agencies, has written that no economic study has ever been able to prove that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector as a generalization.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Who are you to say whether I work hard or not? I doubt you're in the adjoining office to observe me. And what makes you presume to know what hours I work?
    Yes, I don't work in the office next to you...worked for county gov. for 2 years and the inept, lazy, mindless morons who were in the office would never make it in the private sector. Unions have protected these people from getting fired and that's a fact. Now I'm not saying all gov. employees are lazy..just a large percentage are. Have a good friend with DOJ and she cannot get rid of 2 people who are worthless to the team..but the unions won't let them get fired..even after one was caught and charged with theft.
    As the owner of small business (3 1099 reps), when someone comes to interview with me from the public/gov sector, they just don't have a strong work ethic and that's backed by most every biz owner in my industry...it's that misguided sense of entitlement they have..ugg.

    Btw, I have no clue what your hours are..was noticing that you posted here on normal work day hours.
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  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    Yes, I don't work in the office next to you...worked for county gov. for 2 years and the inept, lazy, mindless morons who were in the office would never make it in the private sector. Unions have protected these people from getting fired and that's a fact. Now I'm not saying all gov. employees are lazy..just a large percentage are. Have a good friend with DOJ and she cannot get rid of 2 people who are worthless to the team..but the unions won't let them get fired..even after one was caught and charged with theft.
    As the owner of small business (3 1099 reps), when someone comes to interview with me from the public/gov sector, they just don't have a strong work ethic and that's backed by most every biz owner in my industry...it's that misguided sense of entitlement they have..ugg.

    Btw, I have no clue what your hours are..was noticing that you posted here on normal work day hours.
    OMFG, somebody posting on MTBR during work hours. Oh the infamy!
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200

    ..was noticing that you posted here on normal work day hours.
    As it appears you do as well. You know that thing about throwing stones in glass houses? Just saying

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    Yes, I don't work in the office next to you...worked for county gov. for 2 years and the inept, lazy, mindless morons who were in the office would never make it in the private sector. Unions have protected these people from getting fired and that's a fact. Now I'm not saying all gov. employees are lazy..just a large percentage are. Have a good friend with DOJ and she cannot get rid of 2 people who are worthless to the team..but the unions won't let them get fired..even after one was caught and charged with theft.
    As the owner of small business (3 1099 reps), when someone comes to interview with me from the public/gov sector, they just don't have a strong work ethic and that's backed by most every biz owner in my industry...it's that misguided sense of entitlement they have..ugg.

    Btw, I have no clue what your hours are..was noticing that you posted here on normal work day hours.
    So you worked for the county gov. and where the only person who was not inept, lazy or mindless? You where a part of that minute percent that is hardworking, brilliant, thoughtful and humble?
    As for "your friend"in the DOJ, everybody has "that friend" who can't fire a union worker. As the chapter chair for my union I have sat on more skelly hearings where I/we have defended termination, actually the only time I defended someone form termination it was due to "after work" choices and the person was eventually let go anyways. The reality is that there are sloths working in public and private sector.

    As for entitlement, do you mean entitlement of fair wages, benefits and safe working conditions? I am assuming your 1099 employees are not covered by your health plan, are they? And it's funny how come ex- government workers are looking to work for you, where they fired? Why would these leaks leave their cushy job?
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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    FYI, Meg created thousands of jobs
    yeah, in India, while laying off people here. she also proposed laying off about 40,000 state workers if she was elected.
    will you rep me?

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    As it appears you do as well. You know that thing about throwing stones in glass houses? Just saying
    I have noticed that some private sector workers have an entitlement to boss public sector employees around or monitor their every move. It usually is preempted with " I pay taxes" or "You work for me " I just laugh and think " why you want to playa hate on me"
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  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by moschika
    yeah, in India, while laying off people here. she also proposed laying off about 40,000 state workers if she was elected.
    Don't let the facts get in the way dood !
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  138. #138
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    A bill to let nonprofit organizations provide help to state parks at risk of closing, and even help run them according to the following article, passed the state Assembly and is headed for the state Senate:

    http://petaluma.patch.com/articles/b...rtisan-support

    I would like to see bicycle organizations take part in these efforts, especially if they can have a say about such things as new trails and bicycle access to state wilderness areas, which currently is not allowed.

  139. #139
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    How to Keep Henry W. Coe SP Open

    I write as an enthusiast, volunteer, mountain biker, and advocate for Henry W. Coe State Park. Coe is slated for closure.

    As President of the Pine Ridge Association, the cooperating park association for Coe park I learned a few months ago about the certain prospect of a park closure announcement. Anticipating closure, dedicated advocates have formed a new non-profit organization, the Coe Park Preservation Fund.

    The mission of the CPPF, currently under the umbrella of the PRA, is to manage a foundation, or endowment, to keep the park open, by funding park operations. The hard part, is filling the fund with enough capital for the task.

    Friends, there is a lot you can do to help keep Coe from closing. Writing letters, making donations to the CPPF, spreading the news, volunteering, and joining the park association are a few steps you can take immediately. (Visit this link for action items: Coe Park Preservation Fund; http://coeparkfund.org/content/help.html)

    Take the threat of closure seriously. Enjoy your park while you can. Take the steps to ensure that we may continue to enjoy our park.

    We are currently working with staff to create a list of "Coe Park Closure FAQs" that can be posted and quoted on websites, email, and on forums. While we have some good information on how a park closure would be enacted and what it would look like, we will wait until official statements are obtained.

    Closure of Coe will take time to enact. Coe would probably not close until early 2012.

    I strongly recommend that people join the PRA through the Friends of Gilroy Hot Springs (the FOGHS is under the umbrella of the PRA). Membership in FOGHS includes membership in the PRA. Please see: http://friendsofgilroyhotsprings.org/



    ................................................


    State Parks Deputy Director Roy Stearns answered questions regarding state park closures:

    Q: By closing the parks, how much money will be saved?

    A: "It is a reduction of $11 million in the next fiscal year, 2011-12, and $22 million in the year after that, 2012-13.

    Q: You once said, "Closed means closed." Is that still the case?

    A: "Yes, closed means closed, unless we find a partner to help keep (a park) open fully or partially."

    Q: When will the closures take effect?

    A: "We do not anticipate any budget reduction-related closures before July 2012, the date when the $22 million reduction in our general fund takes effect."

    Q: How many state park employees are being laid off?

    A: "We hope none. We have about 500 vacancies and anticipate that we will surrender about 220 vacant positions to meet the mandate of the budget. That will require moving people around to parks that stay open and eliminating positions at parks that close."

    - Tom Stienstra


    .................................................. ..............................................


    • On May 13th, the California Department of Parks and Recreation released their proposed list of park closures

    Save your local park: Henry W. Coe State Park!

    • You can take action by sending your legislators an electronic letter telling them that you do not support the closure of state
    parks. The web address is calparks.org
    • You do not need to join the Parks Foundation or give them money. Just click Take Action then fill out your information,review and customize the letter, submit the letter and your representatives will hear from you about state parks.

    Spread this information and even if your friends and relatives live out of state they can participate, see the take action page.

    • Let our legislators know how you feel about your local state park Henry W. Coe closing!
    • Although closure lists have been released in the past in response to previous budget cut proposals, this is the first time in the 100 year history of California’s state park system that state park closures will be implemented.

    NOT EVEN DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION DID PARKS CLOSE!

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcerer
    I
    Friends, there is a lot you can do to help keep Coe from closing. Writing letters, making donations to the CPPF, spreading the news, volunteering, and joining the park association are a few steps you can take immediately. (Visit this link for action items: Coe Park Preservation Fund; http://coeparkfund.org/content/help.html)
    The donation site needs a statement about what happens to the funds if the park closes anyway.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Don't let the facts get in the way dood !
    facts are for sissies who can't stand on their own hot air.
    will you rep me?

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    So you worked for the county gov. and where the only person who was not inept, lazy or mindless? You where a part of that minute percent that is hardworking, brilliant, thoughtful and humble?
    As for "your friend"in the DOJ, everybody has "that friend" who can't fire a union worker. As the chapter chair for my union I have sat on more skelly hearings where I/we have defended termination, actually the only time I defended someone form termination it was due to "after work" choices and the person was eventually let go anyways. The reality is that there are sloths working in public and private sector.

    As for entitlement, do you mean entitlement of fair wages, benefits and safe working conditions? I am assuming your 1099 employees are not covered by your health plan, are they? And it's funny how come ex- government workers are looking to work for you, where they fired? Why would these leaks leave their cushy job?
    Snow, I left because I found out it was a waste of my time/talent and could do much better in life besides taking 30 minute coffee breaks, hour lunch's (and driven there by gov. vehicle), leaving early at end of day by 4pm instead of 5pm (the whole dept. was gone by 4pm...public works), the MAKE WORK mindset by clueless supervisors, the constant pursuit of seeking very minor violations for underground utility companies...a total waste of taxpayers money and unwarranted costs to utility/road/communication/etc. construction companies...CalTrans jokes/cartoons are so true....lol.

    FYI snow, my 1099 employees are independent contractors and earn based on what they produce...all make in excess of $100,000 in commission sales and pick and choose their own health, 401k, dental, etc. benefits. My biz is incorporated in Nevada for their more reasonable (way more than CA.) tax structure. I have a house here in CA., condo in Mexico, and am in the process of declaring Nevada as my state residence due to tax savings. Sad to see this once great state in such decline for the non-gov. business sector..we continue to lose more of our tax base with mindless/worthless restrictions by making it very difficult to keep (let alone attract) business for growth...smells like another Michigan in the making (that state being a former shell of itself)...a sorry state of affairs that will continue due to liberal dems (with help/support from their union brethren) and the dems controlling state office. We have a f**ked up mess here in Ca. that was completely preventable, but guys like Gray Davis gave away the store to state employees with massive wage and benefits that no one in the private sector enjoys.

    Snow wrote:"As the chapter chair for my union"...that explains your socialistic mindset of uniting workers and the unions belief of them needing to protect those poor, repressed employees from those ruthless companies and governments...right..it's all about their dues money and power grab. If the union members were aware of what union hierarchy pays itself in salaries/benefit, they would be pretty disgusted.
    Time to ride.
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  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by moschika
    yeah, in India, while laying off people here. she also proposed laying off about 40,000 state workers if she was elected.
    Read up mos...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman

    And just how many jobs has Jerry Brown produced? Answer: zero. Moon beam is owned by the unions and state dem politicians who still pretend it 1980 when businesses were still moving to California. He's just another tax and spend liberal (like the RINO Arnold) who is clueless on how to attract (even maintain) new business, cut government size and (300,000 state employees..we are f**cked) spending, and balance a budget. Instead we get deeper into debt..another Portugal and France in the making. Socialism is a disease that ends up killing job creation and wealth.
    I like big bars and I cannot lie

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimx200
    Snow wrote:"As the chapter chair for my union"...that explains your socialistic mindset of uniting workers and the unions belief of them needing to protect those poor, repressed employees from those ruthless companies and governments...right..it's all about their dues money and power grab. If the union members were aware of what union hierarchy pays itself in salaries/benefit, they would be pretty disgusted.
    Time to ride.
    I wish I could share with you the email I recently wrote to the "CEO's" of my union. I am aware. I feel obligated to protect my fellow employees I represent from "both sides". I just do not want to undermine the work I have done to unify the (my) union with the employer and the people they serve. I have tried hard to find middle ground, because it builds trust and credibility. I am not a union honk but rather a person who fights for the middle class. Check the my track record, there are plenty of articles in local newspapers that will back up my claims.
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  145. #145
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    since we are into politics now, here is my take...

    this state has a spending problem, pure and simple tax rates are some of the highest in the country even without the massive extension/increase stupidly proposed by the governor and ruling party of this state. we waste literally billions of dollars each and every year on programs we can't afford, and are strapped to the walls by our public sector workers who demand unsustainable wages, work rules, benefits and pensions...that are literally in the process of killing the state. we have a governor who has refused to address the real issues and has instead been relying on the standard scare tactics that have in the past succeeded in convincing a not too educated electorate that spending and taxation are the only solutions.

    we also have one of the least friendly business climates here in california, and if you think it doesn't make a difference you just don't see how companies here are thinking and increasingly acting. in my job i see it all the time, and it is just a shame that so many companies don't even consider locating or expanding here since it is just so darn hard and expensive to do business.

    so i believe the money is there is we just spent it wisely instead of flushing so much of it down the drain as we do now. if the parks close i will likely continue to ride and hike in them, and wish we had a state that was run better than we do...

  146. #146
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    not too good

    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc
    The prison guard union has it good too.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...ee/?test=faces
    Take a walk on the yard in any of those prisons. The realization that any one of those groups could kill you if they really wanted to becomes very clear. When you look around at all of the prison gangs broken up among ethnic lines, your idea of what "has it good" means may change. Prison is not somewhere I want to be at, even to work. I have no quarrels with the prison guards, their wages, or their pensions.
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  147. #147
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    Here's an article today regarding what to do with closed parks.

    Closing California parks could pose more problems, than savings

    By Paul Rogers
    [email protected]
    Posted: 05/22/2011 06:40:25 AM PDT
    Updated: 05/22/2011 10:35:04 AM PDT

    A week after Gov. Jerry Brown announced that California will close up to 70 state parks to save money, parks officials are facing dozens of practical questions that could complicate -- if not scuttle -- the plan altogether.
    The obstacles to shutting down parks range from state coastal laws that hamper efforts to close beaches to deciding whether to cite trespassers. Without a clear solution, state Parks Director Ruth Coleman also is considering a plan to simply leave the gates on closed parks open to the public.
    "We are working through this process on a trial-and-error basis," she said. "We know there are liability issues. Our overarching goal is to preserve these resources. That's our fundamental mission. If we can do that in a way that preserves public access, we will."

    The rest of the article: http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...ercurynews.com
    Last edited by DerrickT; 05-22-2011 at 01:30 PM.

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    as i said, what we get from our governor is scare tactics, not solutions....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerrickT
    Here's an article today regarding what to do with closed parks.

    Closing California parks could pose more problems, than savings

    By Paul Rogers
    [email protected]
    Posted: 05/22/2011 06:40:25 AM PDT
    Updated: 05/22/2011 10:35:04 AM PDT


    The rest of the article: http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...ercurynews.com
    Thanks for posting that, DerrickT. Very interesting article.

    oh, and happy post-judgment day, everyone.
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  150. #150
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    http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...nclick_check=1

    Looks who's in the comments!

    Mike Vandeman · San Ramon, California
    Closing parks would greatly benefit the wildlife, who would appreciate being left alone for once. It's very selfish to oppose the closures. Of course, mountain bikers would continue breaking the law, just as they do now, riding illegally and building illegal trails, as they did in the grand Canyon when it was closed. They would be need to be arested. Letting people do what they want would just encourage the lowest common denominator. It would not be pretty.
    Like · Reply · Subscribe · 2 hours ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by X-FXR
    The problem isn't the small little statistic you quoted. We in the land of fruit and nuts are amongst the most taxed in the nation....so let's through more money yet to be back asking for another money handout. You don't get it, the extra money you think will only perpetuate the gov't waste that is occurring. Believe me I see it as I work in it, just amazing. The unions are also a problem and the voting of CA has brought us to this breaking point. STOP PAYING FOR ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS!!!!!!! Why are there 4 principles in schools? Why are we paying over 50% of the state budget on education yet they still want more and still pump out idiots. I bet out of Harvard you'd get on average a lower paying job than you would in the Dept of Corrections for the State of CA + benefits. Congress can't pass a solvent budget, or even a joke of a one on time and correct the problem, they spend money they don't have and when they fail....gee CA just votes the same morons to office. Like what you voted in hope so....hows that hope and change working for ya.....
    ...Because this must somehow be Obama's fualt, right? I would want my kids school to have way more than four principles. (And the one principal they have right now)

    The problem is that money, wealth and power in this country are concentrated with fewer and fewer people and that 1% who controls the majority of the economic power don't send their kids to public school and don't need a state park for vacation-they're flying to Vail or Paris.

  152. #152
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    It doesn't bother me that the discussion thread flips between a calm discussion about state parks closures and heated comments about government generally. I find it kind of interesting, or at least entertaining.

    On the parks themselves, I think there's at least even odds that they won't be closed. If they are, however, I doubt leaving the gates open and trusting people to behave will work. There's likely to be vandalism, illegal camping, marijuana cultivation, etc. I think Sorcerer may have said that this happened at Gilroy Hot Springs, by Henry Coe. I rode in there once and it was thoroughly trashed. Calling the sheriff about minor offenses like vandalism isn't going to be effective. Vandals and campers are going to be hard to find, there's spotty cell phone reception at a place like Coe, and the response times are going to be long.

    On California generally, I agree with the right-wing commenters on this thread that the state has serious problems. But I would point out that so does Texas, which follows the philosophy those on the right would like to see here. IIRC, it has a huge budget deficit, a high percentage of high-school dropouts, lots of pollution, and big problems generally. In fact the whole country is facing big problems, and although California's wounds are self-inflicted to some extent, they also exist to some extent because the U.S. and Europe are suffering. If a rising tide lifts all boats, the reverse is true also.

    One person mentioned Nevada as a haven from California. I know a very conservative family that moved from the Bay Area to Reno to escape the Bay Area's Sodom and Gomorrah. They are happy to be there. What I've noticed about Reno, however, is traffic jams that are worse than they are in most of the Bay Area, pollution, sprawl, low-wage jobs, hardly any public transit or bikeable streets, and the ever-present looming threat of drought. It doesn't seem to function that well. I'd live in San Jose, Santa Rosa, or Fremont any day over Reno. Nevada's unemployment rate is higher than California's.

    Cohenfive, what about the statistics I mentioned earlier that California is low in state employees per 100,000 population, that pensions are mostly funded by CALPERs investments, not taxpayer money, and that the average pension is about $25,000? I can't buy your assessment that the state is going down the tubes because of grasping public employees. There are some pension plans that are going to be unsustainable, but I think they're mostly those for city and county firefighters and police officers, who, along with state correctional officers, do get very generous benefits.

    One thing that some people on this thread may as well reconcile themselves to (while others will celebrate the fact) is that Obama is very likely to be reelected. That's why the Republicans' potential big guns are dropping out right now. They know not to waste their time in 2012.

    I'm not an orthodox liberal, by the way. I believe in small government and think the federal government's growth is going to bankrupt the United States over time. I wouldn't mind seeing Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky get his way with the federal budget. We can't go on printing money and asking China to finance our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, while at home we pass more and more oppressive laws and lock up more and more people for crimes of dubious seriousness.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by datenschwanz
    http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...nclick_check=1

    Looks who's in the comments!

    Mike Vandeman · San Ramon, California
    Closing parks would greatly benefit the wildlife, who would appreciate being left alone for once. It's very selfish to oppose the closures. Of course, mountain bikers would continue breaking the law, just as they do now, riding illegally and building illegal trails, as they did in the grand Canyon when it was closed. They would be need to be arested. Letting people do what they want would just encourage the lowest common denominator. It would not be pretty.
    Like · Reply · Subscribe · 2 hours ago
    Hah hah!! Oh, yes, no hikers or equestrians will be breaking those trespassing laws.

    And you know what? No one I know has ever been even charged with assault, much less convicted. Always funny to be accused of law breaking by a flagrant scofflaw.

    What a tool.
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  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I'm not an orthodox liberal, by the way. I believe in small government and think the federal government's growth is going to bankrupt the United States over time. I wouldn't mind seeing Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky get his way with the federal budget.
    We are sure glad California may not print money or issue too many bonds.

  155. #155
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    Heard an interesting stat this morning. Everybody is saying that we're printing money like we're on crack, but what I heard was that the federal money supply increased at an annual 4.9% clip, which is roughly consistent with GDP growth + inflation.

    I also heard an interesting number about the average pension in CA. The $25k that's often cited is skewed by people who spent very little time in the system, and hence earned small pensions. The average pension for your regular lifer was much higher, although I can't remember the actual number.

    Edit: here is the article

    "In fact, CalPERS data shows the average career public employee, who put in at least 30 years of service and retired in the 2008-09 fiscal year, collected a starting pension of $67,000 a year, or 2.5 times the advertised figure. The higher number is buried deep in the retirement system’s financial statement and never makes it to the promotional material CalPERS hands out.

    The pension numbers are even higher for the separate local retirement systems that cover employees of the two East Bay county governments. The average was $85,500 for career workers who retired in 2009 from the Contra Costa system, and $83,000 from Alameda County.

    A majority of these workers also receive Social Security, which could add, very roughly, about another $19,000 to the annual pension of career worker, pushing the average starting retirement for the two local systems into triple digits, and for CalPERS to about $86,000 a year, or more than three times the touted number.

    So how does CalPERS come up with $27,000 a year?

     Time period: The CalPERS number averages in the pensions of all current retirees, regardless of when they stopped working. It doesn’t separate out those who retired since 1999, when state and local governments started significantly increasing pension benefits for their workers.

     Years worked: The CalPERS number combines employees who worked just five years with those who put in more than 30 years. The average years of service is 20.2, hardly a full working career. (In contrast, Social Security, for example, calculates benefits based on a working career of 35 years, and reduces the payments for those who worked less time.)

     Social Security: The CalPERS number does not include Social Security benefits. About 65 percent of CalPERS members are also entitled to Social Security benefits for their years of public service."
    Last edited by zorg; 05-23-2011 at 05:50 PM.
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    zorg, you are spot on about the pensions...looking at the average is highly misleading....you need to look at the average relative to time served or other benchmarks to get a more accurate assessment of what is going on..

    imtnbke, i am not one of the hard liner right wingers you mention above...i voted for obama and may very well vote for him again, although i am being very open to looking at alternatives. i believe this fiscal crisis in the country (and this state, as well as other states) is the biggest long term issue facing the country...and i also believe that our current president (and governor) are being highly negligent in their duties to inform the citizens of the scope of the problem as well as the viable solutions that are out there.

    as for the state's situation, i mentioned programs we cannot afford before mentioning the public employee problems inflicted on the state. that being said, i believe this state, as well as all other states, would be a lot better off if they became 'right to work' states. how can anyone logically argue with the theory of 'right to work' anyway?

    we cannot afford the safety net we have in this state, and we cannot afford the lavish wages and benefits we have given our state workers. the current system is rife with conflict of interest. in our 'non right to work' state, employees are forced to belong to unions. mandatory dues are automatically collected by the govt, then disbursed to the unions. the unions spend huge amounts of money helping to elect 'friendlies', and when it comes to contract time, guess who is responsible for 'negotiating' wages, work rules, benefits and pensions? it is a disgusting system and very much unlike the private sector since the public sector unions are effectively a monopoly in a non-right to work state.

    we have no room to raise tax levels in this state since we already piss away so much money...but we should make sure that everyone pays some taxes. i believe that one of the problems is that not enough people have 'skin in the game'...it is really easy to vote to have someone else pay for your benefits, much harder (but better) if voting for higher taxes and fees comes out of everyone's pockets to some degree.....

  157. #157
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    I have met your enemy...and he is me

    I feel uncomfortable stepping into this thread and may run off quickly, but I have a unique perspective regarding CalPers pensions, the CCPOA (California Correctional Peace Officers Association), and what in particular is causing people in the local and national media to point their fingers at California Prison Guards.

    I was a correctional officer in California in the 80's and 90's. It was a lousy job but it paid well. You can get hired even if you dropped out of school. You can get hired even if you have a criminal record. There were people in my academy class that you wouldn't hire to be french fry cooks. They expelled several people from my class for cheating on tests, drinking, and using drugs. But many got through and went on to earn over $40k a year before overtime. Some could double their pay with overtime. Look, we had to staff the place 24/7.

    That might not shock or surprise anyone. And neither would stories of how our facility had a swimming pool, weight room, game room, and HBO on the TV. We even got taxpayers to pony up to pay for rolling papers, tobacco, and matchbooks for inmates, as well as cover the postage on their mail.

    What is being talked about are the pensions. That should include disability pensions. Correctional officers and CHP officers received disability pensions at more than six times the rate of any other Cal-Pers members. It might be migraine headaches, stress, or some sort of injury. I saw them all. There are countless examples of people who worked 5 to 10 years, maybe less, and paid what, 7% of their check into their retirement, with the state matching it. That might add up to something near $20k. Then they get cut loose and are given a disibility retirement. That's where you see that figure of an average of only $27k being paid out. Well, keep adding. They may only start off at $27k but it grows fast. They are awarded 50% of their final monthly pay, tax free, for life. There is a 2% COLA each year. They get full medical, dental and eye care for their whole family, and maybe pay $100-$200 a month for it. They can go out and get a job doing anything they want and earing as much as they can and the checks keep coming for life. I have a friend in Sacramento who retired last year from the CHP. He worked with me for several years. He is earning over $95k a year in retirement. He received almost $100k in final payments for benefits and sick time and vacation time he never used. Like most in our profession, he was able to load up on overtime his last year to positively affect his calculations for his retirement payments.

    And as most have read, the CCPOA has always given generously to the past and present governors of California, who returned the favor ten-fold.

    At parties and social events, people would ask me how it all works, how successful we are at rehabilitating people. I used to laugh and say run a human warehouse, not a sunday school. Our recidivism rates were over 90%, in truth. The guys downtown would tell people it was maybe 65%. They would call someone who gets out and is murdered shortly after a success because he didn't return. Same with the convicts who leave the state to live with family elsewhere. They might rob and murder all over the U.S., but as long as they don't come back to a California prison, they are non-recidivists.

    Sorry, I'm rambling. I'd be glad to entertain questions, if anyone wants to know more. I am sorry that me and my fellow Cal-Pers pensioneers are disproportionately contributing to closing down your beautiful state parks. I'd like to return and help you build or maintain some trails in those parks, to make it up to you.

  158. #158
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    Cohenfive, I'm not lumping you in with the adamant right-wingers. To fit in that category as I define it, you'd have to be willing to vote for Sarah Palin reflexively, i.e., without giving it any thought. Your message history shows you're far from in that group.

    Zorg, your figures are important and I'm disappointed in CALPERS for not being straightforward by providing a better breakdown. Still, I'm not inclined to apologize for a $67,000 pension for someone who's worked ≥30 years. Wouldn't someone who worked for AT&T, Texaco, Hewlett-Packard, or Caterpillar get such a pension? I would think so, and perhaps a lot more, although perhaps new hires don't. New state hires aren't eligible for the pensions of our now-passing golden age either. I think recent legislation rolled the benefits back to 1999 levels, which were 2% of salary times years of employment at age 60 for new "miscellaneous" nonsafety employees. (They're 2% at 55 for "miscellaneous" employees currently enrolled.)

    At $67,000 a year, one isn't going to be making many trips to Europe or eating a lot of filet mignon. It's the stinginess of what most people in the private sector get nowadays (a 401k if they're lucky) that makes that figure look lavish. I read somewhere that in France, if you work until age 67 and qualify for a full pension, you get 75% of your salary. We should do that here. We'd be a happier country. We can afford it. We are extremely wealthy, but we fritter away our wealth patrolling the world's sealanes and bombing here, bombing there. Let other countries share that burden. Reportedly the costs of treating service personnel wounded/injured in Iraq and Afghanistan will be $1 trillion. That is what we cannot afford any more of, although we must pay it as a moral obligation to those who've already sacrificed.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    I have a friend in Sacramento who retired last year from the CHP. He worked with me for several years. He is earning over $95k a year in retirement. He received almost $100k in final payments for benefits and sick time and vacation time he never used. Like most in our profession, he was able to load up on overtime his last year to positively affect his calculations for his retirement payments.
    Excellent comment, Prodigal Son, and supremely honest. This is what infuriates people. I would like to emphasize that ordinary state employees like me don't come close to these kinds of terms. We don't even get overtime, most of us; we're salaried.

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    Well worth...

    ...the 27 minutes it takes to listen to the whole thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcerer
    Ms Coleman seems well intentioned but mis-guided---Sacramento just doesn't "get it". Most of the callers to the program had excellent points to make.

    To play along with the State; I have dibs on the pay-toilet concession at Hunting Hollow.

    Watch for an upcoming MTBR poll asking how much you guys are willing pay to take a crap?

    How much if warm towels are provided???
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    imtnbke, thanks for not dumping me in there with the 'other guys'.... palin and that crew are ridiculous...but i really believe we are in the process of blowing it for our kids, and i would hate to see us end up like greece--but that is the path we are on if we don't act, and act decisively. we are lucky to have all the tools to fix things, but that only happens with an honest dialogue about the seriousness of the problems and the pain required to fix them....that pain being shared by everyone, rich or poor, democrat and republican union and non-union, right to work state and non-right to work state.

    we haven't talked about immigration reform yet......

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    To keep things in perspective, $67k a year would require to save about $1.5M in your 401k by age 65. Most of us won't get there. And it does not include the post retirement health benefits which are probably worth $15-20k a year per couple.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

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    Zorg, this is all the more reason that we have to reconfigure things so that all working people, not just those who work for large corporations or the government, have a modest but liveable defined-benefit pension plan. If you're correct, then people will either have to be poor in retirement or never retire. How depressing is that?

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    ...the 27 minutes it takes to listen to the whole thing.


    Ms Coleman seems well intentioned but mis-guided---Sacramento just doesn't "get it". Most of the callers to the program had excellent points to make.

    To play along with the State; I have dibs on the pay-toilet concession at Hunting Hollow.

    Watch for an upcoming MTBR poll asking how much you guys are willing pay to take a crap?

    How much if warm towels are provided???
    I plan to run the paintball concession at Henry Coe. There will be a mountain bike version. Get out your body armor and goggles and be ready for handlebar-mounted paintball-gun fun!

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Zorg, this is all the more reason that we have to reconfigure things so that all working people, not just those who work for large corporations or the government, have a modest but liveable defined-benefit pension plan. If you're correct, then people will either have to be poor in retirement or never retire. How depressing is that?
    There is a defined benefit retirement plan for everybody - that is Social Security and Medicare. If you argue that it is not enough - argue to raise the contributions to it. There is no need for a yet another system. If that is all we can afford - that is all we can afford. Printing money would not solve it. Taxing the rich will not solve it either, it makes you feel good, but it is not a reliable way to fund social programs.

    I am not sure how that justifies the featherbedding that was handed out to politically involved public unions in the last 15 years by corrupt politicians and got all of us on the hook for billions and billions of dollars of unfunded future costs (conveniently not included into that decieving $27K figure quoted).

    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Still, I'm not inclined to apologize for a $67,000 pension for someone who's worked ≥30 years. Wouldn't someone who worked for AT&T, Texaco, Hewlett-Packard, or Caterpillar get such a pension?
    They do not pay to politicians to raise my taxes to pay for it. It is their business.

    If all those benefits was a true market cost to attract and retain necessary talent to perform public jobs - then fine, it costs what it costs. The problem is that all that was bought by political involvement. That's corruption in my books - just like corporate welfare bought by campaign contributions. Corn subsidies, sweet development deals.. Same thing. Just with pensions and benefits it is more difficult to unroll and more costly for a longer time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by codypup
    ...Because this must somehow be Obama's fualt, right?
    No it's Bush's fault. He always has a hand in it.

    It's also because of global warming.

    Oh it's also because of the nuclear reactor problem in Japan.

    My point is fault is not as important and resolving the cause and fixing it. The bad thing for us is that the people who have to solve it are the people who have created the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Zorg, this is all the more reason that we have to reconfigure things so that all working people, not just those who work for large corporations or the government, have a modest but liveable defined-benefit pension plan. If you're correct, then people will either have to be poor in retirement or never retire. How depressing is that?
    What country are you in? You are assuming that gov or big business is needed to give your retirement. In the US you are supposed to choose what you spend you money on. Retirement, car, house, medical, you supposed to decide. It has become more and more someone's else's responsibility.

    I honestly do not expect social security to be there when I retire. I planned not to have it. If it is, that's a bonus that I can spend on bikes!!!!
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  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg
    In the US you are supposed to choose what you spend you money on. Retirement, car, house, medical, you supposed to decide. It has become more and more someone's else's responsibility.
    How? The money that goes into retirement plans is YOUR money. Who gives away retirement?
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    the money is only yours if it is actually funded in a segregated account that is in your name and your name only. social security, public sector and private sector defined benefit pensions plans, medicare/medicaid, etc....those plans do not fit the above definition so are not necessarily 'yours'...if the company or state goes away via bankruptcy, if there are unfunded liabilities you will understand what 'not your money' means...and that is the situation that exists. most government programs are not fully funded so are 'at risk' if those entities fail...as our state and increasingly our federal government appear to be on a path towards.

    in theory i agree with the poster who suggested we should eliminate 'defined benefit' plans that 'guarantee' a certain level of benefits regardless of what the actual funding and investment situation ends up experiencing...the private sector realized they could not afford to make blanket, lifetime promises a long time ago, and the public sector either has to learn the same thing or face some massive problems like we are just starting to see in this once great state.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    There is a defined benefit retirement plan for everybody - that is Social Security and Medicare. If you argue that it is not enough - argue to raise the contributions to it. There is no need for a yet another system.
    sounds socialist to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Axe

    I am not sure how that justifies the featherbedding that was handed out to politically involved public unions in the last 15 years by corrupt politicians and got all of us on the hook for billions and billions of dollars of unfunded future costs (conveniently not included into that decieving $27K figure quoted).

    How does this cost "you all" anymore or less. Do you understand what you are taking about? Please don't copy and paste from a Stanford report either.

    Do you realize that most of the high paid public workers are not union? Do you realize that SEIU, the 2nd largest public employee union, has supported many CalPers reform bills including bills that would prevent spiking and limit the maximum payout?
    Many local governments and policy makers are working with public unions to find sustainable ways to provide the retirement benefits. But it can't happen over night, but its already happening http://www.calpers.ca.gov/index.jsp?...st-pension.xml
    Also please note where the money come from.
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  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive
    the money is only yours if it is actually funded in a segregated account that is in your name and your name only. social security, public sector and private sector defined benefit pensions plans, medicare/medicaid, etc....those plans do not fit the above definition so are not necessarily 'yours'...if the company or state goes away via bankruptcy, if there are unfunded liabilities you will understand what 'not your money' means...and that is the situation that exists. most government programs are not fully funded so are 'at risk' if those entities fail...as our state and increasingly our federal government appear to be on a path towards.

    then it's not your money paying for it so quit worrying
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  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive

    in theory i agree with the poster who suggested we should eliminate 'defined benefit' plans that 'guarantee' a certain level of benefits regardless of what the actual funding and investment situation ends up experiencing...the private sector realized they could not afford to make blanket, lifetime promises a long time ago, and the public sector either has to learn the same thing or face some massive problems like we are just starting to see in this once great state.
    or you can adjust what you pay for your defined benefit every year. If you go to a financial planner and say I want to retire with X amount of money they could do an actuarial and figure what you need to contribute to achieve your goals. Your contribution would change as the market changed as long as you wanted to maintain X.
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  174. #174
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    Good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask
    There is a defined benefit retirement plan for everybody - that is Social Security and Medicare. If you argue that it is not enough - argue to raise the contributions to it. There is no need for a yet another system. If that is all we can afford - that is all we can afford.
    Plainly social security is insufficient; I doubt any of us could live on it comfortably. I'd rather not enlarge it, though, because its funding mechanism doesn't make any sense. There's no investment of our contributions into the money market or some other stable investment vehicle. Congress takes our dough, spends it, then promises current retirees it'll fund them. Until social security provides a comfortable (albeit modest) retirement, not near-starvation, and is investment-based, I'd rather that everyone who works for many years have an alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask
    [Private companies] do not pay to politicians to raise my taxes to pay for it. It is their business. ¶ If all those benefits was a true market cost to attract and retain necessary talent to perform public jobs - then fine, it costs what it costs. The problem is that all that was bought by political involvement. That's corruption in my books - just like corporate welfare bought by campaign contributions. Corn subsidies, sweet development deals. Same thing. Just with pensions and benefits it is more difficult to unroll and more costly for a longer time.
    I think there's some truth to this.

    Where I work, we wouldn't be able to hire our staff at our current salaries unless the pension plan were part of compensation. We'd mostly be working elsewhere, for a lot more money. But yes, in other sectors there may be jobs that are overpaid (in total compensation, i.e., wages plus benefits) because unions have gotten more for their members than the labor market would command.

    At the same time, however, unions are about the only thing left, along with moderate state legislators and local officials, that are holding back our wholesale slide into Latin American–style income inequality. To condemn them as corrupt without acknowledging the benefits they bring is, I think, short-sighted. We've all benefited from them, in fact. The eight-hour workday and the weekend are products of unions, and so, I would guess, is much workplace safety regulation.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg
    What country are you in? You are assuming that gov or big business is needed to give your retirement. In the US you are supposed to choose what you spend you money on. Retirement, car, house, medical, you supposed to decide. It has become more and more someone's else's responsibility.

    I honestly do not expect social security to be there when I retire. I planned not to have it. If it is, that's a bonus that I can spend on bikes!!!!
    No, you're incorrect. I don't assume that government or big business is required to give me a pension, if that's what you're saying. Fortunately, I do work for the government and it is going to give me a pension (I hope). So I've planned my life around that expectation. But if I were working for myself, for example, or for a smaller outfit that doesn't even contribute to a 401(k), I'd be saving like mad and living on rice and beans. Even as it is, I'm pretty frugal, as my 17-year-old subcompact car and small house in a marginal neighborhood will attest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    then it's not your money paying for it so quit worrying
    but in the public sector, unfortunately it all falls on the taxpayers...which only amounts to about 52% of the citizens....we are left holding the bag for the stupid and unsustainable promises made by elected officials who are as described above, in many cases in bed with the public sector workers....so we get stuffed and the state goes down the tubes.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    sounds socialist to me
    So? Is there anything wrong with fair, transparent and non-partisan system? I have not heard about any Social Security trustees buying political ads on TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    How does this cost "you all" anymore or less. Do you understand what you are taking about? Please don't copy and paste from a Stanford report either.
    Do you understand what you are talking about, or do you think the money grows on trees?

    Where should I get my information, SEIU member bulletins?

    We are talking about closing our parks here. Yes, that costs all of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Do you realize that most of the high paid public workers are not union? Do you realize that SEIU, the 2nd largest public employee union, has supported many CalPers reform bills including bills that would prevent spiking and limit the maximum payout?
    Do you understand that it does not change the cold hard facts about the unfunded obligations, and overly generous and unjustified paydays that had been bought on campaign contributions and other political involvement?

    Corruption. Plain and simple. No glossing over that fact.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive
    but in the public sector, unfortunately it all falls on the taxpayers...which only amounts to about 52% of the citizens....we are left holding the bag for the stupid and unsustainable promises made by elected officials who are as described above, in many cases in bed with the public sector workers....so we get stuffed and the state goes down the tubes.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    At the same time, however, unions are about the only thing left, along with moderate state legislators and local officials, that are holding back our wholesale slide into Latin American–style income inequality.
    With public employee unions, I do not buy that for a second. What we are sliding into is Latin American style corruption. I have no opinion on private sector unions, that's their business. Problem for working people and middle class is global competition, not inequality.

  179. #179
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    Cohenfive, I think you're more alarmed about California's tax and pension situation than you need to be.

    First, in almost every state people are saying the state is going down the tubes. Only a few prairie states like North Dakota and Nebraska are doing well. Low-tax states are going down the same tubes we are. We have a deep national recession. The national economy is a cause for alarm, but I don't see that California is that much different from New Jersey, Washington, or Colorado in terms of taxes.

    So I don't think taxes or pensions are the problem. Of course it's self-serving for me to say the latter. But I do believe it.

    Nevertheless, some surveys show that corporate bigwigs think California's business climate is the worst of all 50 states. I think this points to the problem: overregulation. The California Environmental Quality Act is a huge impediment to building anything and to many other types of business expansion and infrastructure improvement. We have environmental regulation heaped on environmental regulation, and worse yet, a sizeable minority of our residents are eager to run to court and use those regulations to block, block, and block again.

    It has to reduce our tax base considerably when everything from a dam to a football stadium to a shopping mall—even an individual house if some NIMBY neighbor is unhappy about its being built or added onto—can be wrangled over in court for years. And that's just CEQA. Cities and counties have their own infrastructure-stifling and business-stifling rules, many of them predicated on perceived environmental protection necessities that are exaggerated or don't exist. Reform CEQA and restrict local NIMBY regulation and I think business-climate evaluation surveys would put California in the middle of the pack.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I plan to run the paintball concession at Henry Coe. There will be a mountain bike version. Get out your body armor and goggles and be ready for handlebar-mounted paintball-gun fun!
    Yeah, and I plan to run the clear-cutting and open-pit mining concessions.

    I'm not arguing with imtnbike (I mostly agree with her)... I'm just trying to explain why privatizing state parks might be the death of them. Most likely, there would be rules against for example, lumber and mining and paintball, which simply means - the state would need additional bureaucracy to oversee/approve what are appropriate concessionaires and what they can/can't do in order to preserve the integrity of the parks. So what money have we saved over just keeping the parks open in the first place? The anti-government crowd would prefer to let the market rule everything. But there are some things that have no correlation to profit that are worth preserving.
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  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Do you realize that most of the high paid public workers are not union?
    This makes me think of something. I know a few highly paid state employees. They have some of the most prestigious jobs in California's public sector. And they've been at those jobs for 25, 30, maybe 35 years. As a result, their pensions would have to be well into six figures. If they retired tomorrow, that is.

    But they don't retire. Why not? Because they are workaholics who have little or no life outside of work. It may come as a surprise that there are work-obsessed state employees who work long hours, but there are. It's part of American culture. And these people are working for peanuts. If they put in 2,000 hours a year at $140,000 a year but would get $120,000 to retire and do nothing, they're working for $20,000, or $10 an hour.

    I find it weird and kind of sad. After 25 years or so, I think most jobs are going to become boring. Even being President of the United States, Ambassador to France, or a U.S. Supreme Court justice might get old after that much time. These people's jobs aren't that intrinsically interesting. But unlike us, they don't have a passion like mountain biking. They'll probably work until they're carried out of the building feet first.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    Cohenfive, I think you're more alarmed about California's tax and pension situation than you need to be.
    i don't think so...a study done by stanford put the unfunded pension liability as high as $500 billion for california...i think that is cause for serious alarm and immediate action.

    the money is just not there, pure and simple. benefit levels are way too generous, and even worse they are built on totally unrealistic investment return assumptions. the state cannot tax its way out of this one since we already have one of the highest tax burdens in the country, and more and more of our highest earning individuals and companies are moving to friendlier tax and business climates.

    if not aggressively cut, this will bring the state down at some point in the not too distant future, and it is negligent of our current governor and his party to refuse to take action....imho.

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    I concede that I'm not armed with enough facts to be able to argue against this persuasively. You are a good advocate for your point of view. I'll continue to read and learn.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg
    What country are you in?
    Mozambique, of course. Isn't everyone on this thread? I'll have to change my avatar.

  185. #185
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    That stamp didn't turn out too well. I was searching and discovered that Mozambique has two tick stamps! Why would any country issue a stamp featuring a tick? Maybe I'll put that on.

    No, no problem; I don't mind. Another problem, though, is that long-term forecasting is difficult. I guess the best one can do is adopt conservative assumptions and crunch the numbers.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke
    I concede that I'm not armed with enough facts to be able to argue against this persuasively. You are a good advocate for your point of view. I'll continue to read and learn.
    i hope you don't mind, that's one of the problems--the lack of clear and transparent information on the situation and our real choices...that is supposed to be our govt's job but they refuse to take the risk, which just puts all of us at risk..

  187. #187
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    How did my reply to Cohenfive predate his message?!

  188. #188
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    Thanks Axe and Cohen you changed my mind. Now can you just tell me where I can get my news from. I just want something fair and balanced and I'll make my own opinion.
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    imtnbke--you are just clairvoyant is all....

    snowjnky--it is really hard, especially in the bay area, to get balanced information. the chron could be the worst paper in the country in that regard. i find even the contra costa times and the san jose mercury news to be better....but i'm sort of a news/information junkie, understand finance and am also very worried about the topic so i do a lot of searches to get all the info. sometimes it comes from reading lots of reader comments as well, but you have to be able to filter out what is real from what is total b.s....

    this topic scares the sh*t out of me as i really worry we are blowing it for our kids...and that would be a shame. the issues are the same at the federal level unfortunately, and we are getting the same negligence from the president and the democratic party i'm afraid...and this is coming from someone who voted for most of these guys (well not jerry)....the republicans at the federal level are taking all the risks, relying on some version of the facts thinking voters are ready to hear the unappealing options. the president and democrats are so far playing the familiar political game of avoiding the topic and letting the opposition take the political heat. unfortunately, that tactic historically has worked (which is part of why we are here)....

    the saddest part of all is that we are watching the future unfold in the situation in greece (and maybe some others)...we have the ability to learn and the assets to fix things, but it will take strong, bipartisan will to make the hard choices to cut entitlements and pensions across the board, while raising taxes more as well...shared sacrifice is what it will take...and i hope we are up for it, because right now it doesn't sound like the country gets it yet.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Thanks Axe and Cohen you changed my mind. Now can you just tell me where I can get my news from. I just want something fair and balanced and I'll make my own opinion.
    Just years of education and lack of bias. Information is out there.

  191. #191
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    To test for lack of bias, ask somebody how they feel about Bush.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Just years of education and lack of bias. Information is out there.
    You make me laugh!!!
    Lack of bias!!
    You are out of your mind.
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    You make me laugh!!!
    Lack of bias!!
    You are out of your mind.
    Yep. Lack of bias. And perspective.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive
    imtnbke--you are just clairvoyant is all....

    snowjnky--it is really hard, especially in the bay area, to get balanced information. the chron could be the worst paper in the country in that regard.
    another example why there needs to be a sarcasm font
    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive
    i find even the contra costa times and the san jose mercury news to be better....but i'm sort of a news/information junkie, understand finance and am also very worried about the topic so i do a lot of searches to get all the info. sometimes it comes from reading lots of reader comments as well, but you have to be able to filter out what is real from what is total b.s....
    I am glad you do your research Thanks for sharing what you have so diligently found on this subject. do you use google or bing? how do you grade and filter "readers comments" I need to know this since I spend countless hours a week tackling these problems and coming up with "real solutions" that are put into action. I would like to share your techniques for information gathering with the other sides and stakeholders, we get tired of reading actuarial reports, budgets and other mind numbing documents. You seem to have it down.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Yep. Lack of bias. And perspective.
    are you humble, handsome, and a fast mountain biker also?
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Yep. Lack of bias and perspective.
    fixed
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  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    are you humble, handsome, and a fast mountain biker also?
    Yes, I am very humble and handsome. Not particularly fast though, but I am trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    fixed
    In la-la land? It is funny to see how quickly you descended into some childish responses. I guess it is indeed hard to argue from a biased position in any other fashion.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    How? The money that goes into retirement plans is YOUR money. Who gives away retirement?
    In theory it is SS supposed to be my money, but when they tweaked SS to come out of the general fun in the 60's (I think) that all went to hell. If I got a statement saying I put in $300,000 over my life and that's what I get, then I could believe it. They have some formula about what I get. I could get 2x what I paid into it if I lived long enough.

    In practical terms, you need more workers to pay into it than are taking. I think 2:1 is the ratio that will keep it solvent.

    As for 401k types, that is my money that I choose to put there. I get some private company match, but it at least something. Too many don't put much, if any into 401k or IRAs. The bad thing is I will have to pay for them later. Oh, and my kids will have to pay for them too.
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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    To test for lack of bias, ask somebody how they feel about Bush.
    I like bush, but my wife doesn't have any. I like bush on the trail too. It makes for a challenge weaving through it. Wasn't there a Florida governor that last name was Bush too?
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  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    To test for lack of bias, ask somebody how they feel about Bush.
    I like bush on the trail. It makes for a challenge weaving through it. Wasn't there a Florida governor that last name was Bush too?
    Last edited by ziscwg; 05-25-2011 at 10:29 AM.
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