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  1. #1
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    Horse crap in the trail

    This subject has probably come up before, and has maybe been beaten to death already, but I'm gonna rant about it anyhow. I went for an early morning ride at Annadel this morning and came across several large fresh piles of horse poo in the middle of the trail on Ridge, Marsh, Burma and Spring Creek. One pile was situated on a narrow section of the trail between rocks and bushes where the only way to avoid it was to get off the bike and carry it over the poo.

    Now as a dog owner, I always carry a bag and clean up after my mutt if he poops in a public place. This is standard practice for dog owners and is expected of us. Likewise it would not be appropriate for someone to let their animal poop on the sidewalk and leave it there.

    I understand that horse poo could weigh down a bag in a hurry, but I would be fine if horse owners were just required to have a shovel with them and at least throw their animal's waste off the side of the trail. It's disgusting, ridiculous and detracts from the enjoyment of other park users.

    I wonder if anyone has taken this issue up with the California State Parks? If not, I think I'm going to.
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  2. #2
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    I agree.

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    I've always found it somewhat repulsive to have to dodge horse crap all over the trails, as well. It seems reasonable to me that horse owners should, as you say, be required to at least move the crap off the trail.

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    I would say ... Try the road bike because there is less horse crap on the road. Just hop it and show your mad MTB skills. We all share the trails so that we have trails. Horse crap is not like dog **** ... Seems like City people want to have sidewalks for trails ...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    ... One pile was situated on a narrow section of the trail between rocks and bushes where the only way to avoid it was to get off the bike and carry it over the poo.

    Now as a dog owner, I always carry a bag and clean up after my mutt if he poops in a public place. This is standard practice for dog owners and is expected of us. Likewise it would not be appropriate for someone to let their animal poop on the sidewalk and leave it there.

    ... if horse owners were just required to have a shovel with them and at least throw their animal's waste off the side of the trail.
    That's not an unreasonable suggestion. I know the equestrian parking at a state park near my house has signs posted requiring horse owners to shovel off the parking lot near the trailer parking...

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    I agree---whatever happened to "leave no trace"?? has anyone tried lodging a complaint at any of the ranger stations? i was thinking of doing that at the hoen ave entrance (just to see what happens) this weekend.

    the other issue is people taking untrained horses (not sure if thats the correct term). once i was asked to get off marsh trail by two fine examples of trailer trash on horses, and they had a third riderless horse following. apparently the third horse was, "skittish, and hasn't really been trained yet". wtf does that mean? does it seem like a good idea to bring a 1500 lb animal onto a single track if it isnt ready (again, i'm not sure what all "training" a horse needs)??


    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    This subject has probably come up before, and has maybe been beaten to death already, but I'm gonna rant about it anyhow. I went for an early morning ride at Annadel this morning and came across several large fresh piles of horse poo in the middle of the trail on Ridge, Marsh, Burma and Spring Creek. One pile was situated on a narrow section of the trail between rocks and bushes where the only way to avoid it was to get off the bike and carry it over the poo.

    Now as a dog owner, I always carry a bag and clean up after my mutt if he poops in a public place. This is standard practice for dog owners and is expected of us. Likewise it would not be appropriate for someone to let their animal poop on the sidewalk and leave it there.

    I understand that horse poo could weigh down a bag in a hurry, but I would be fine if horse owners were just required to have a shovel with them and at least throw their animal's waste off the side of the trail. It's disgusting, ridiculous and detracts from the enjoyment of other park users.

    I wonder if anyone has taken this issue up with the California State Parks? If not, I think I'm going to.
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    Touching fecal matter in any sense is probably too pedestrian for an equestrian.

  8. #8
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    Desensitizing?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty crosley
    I would say ... Try the road bike because there is less horse crap on the road. Just hop it and show your mad MTB skills. We all share the trails so that we have trails. Horse crap is not like dog **** ... Seems like City people want to have sidewalks for trails ...

    There is a reason it comes out the back and not the front and a reason humans react to the bad smell. Crap is crap and when your knobby tire throws it up into your face it is now crap on your face.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 07-16-2010 at 12:28 PM.

  9. #9
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    "Horse Crap Trail", is what my friend and I named pretty much any and all trails in Granite Bay/Folsom. I have to apply ninja like moves to avoid the 100's of piles littering the trails.

    I do not understand why horse owners/riders are exepmt from cleaning up after their animals? They leave a much bigger mess than dogs. (not that I want to roll through dog poo)
    It is just gross.
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    I'd just like to take a moment to point out that John Wayne was a Nazi.

  11. #11
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    Grass In --> Grass Out

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    Grass In --> Cryptosporidium/Salmonella/Campylobacter Out. Crap is Crap and then some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656
    I agree---whatever happened to "leave no trace"??
    "In general" people in the bay area who own horses truly believe they are better than everyone else. That is not to say I have not met some really cool equestrians around here.

    I also think, as dth656 pointed out, that a bigger issue with horses is owner's taking horses who aren't fully broken onto public trails. That is dangerously irresponsible whereas horse crap on the trail is just annoying and a bit rude.

    edit: fwiw, I grew up in the midwest around horses, and didn't really get into bikes until later in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marty crosley
    I would say ... Try the road bike because there is less horse crap on the road. Just hop it and show your mad MTB skills. We all share the trails so that we have trails. Horse crap is not like dog **** ... Seems like City people want to have sidewalks for trails ...
    Yeah, as if their sh*t doesn't stink like everyone elses. Yes, I know horse crap is not dog crap, but if horse crap is such great stuff, why do vetrinarians use huge latex gloves when they have to stick their hand up a horses a$$? No one wants sidewalks for trails, but you think it's unresonable to not have to ride through sh*t?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656
    the other issue is people taking untrained horses (not sure if thats the correct term). once i was asked to get off marsh trail by two fine examples of trailer trash on horses, and they had a third riderless horse following. apparently the third horse was, "skittish, and hasn't really been trained yet". wtf does that mean? does it seem like a good idea to bring a 1500 lb animal onto a single track if it isnt ready (again, i'm not sure what all "training" a horse needs)??
    The typical term for an untrained horse like that is that he/she is "green." If you have a horse that's green to trails, you have to train it on trails to get it used to trails... really no other way to do it. But taking a green horse on multi-use trails is irresponsible because you're putting others at risk. Find an isolated, non-multi-use trail and use that one to train your horse. Then, once it's used to being on trails, work it up to encountering other things on trails. Taking an outright green horse to freaking Annadel with tons of other users is just dumb.
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    I agree - it seems only fair that all trail users, regardless of transport mode, should be required to leave the trails as they found them, rather than prejudicing the enjoyment and health of other users who follow. It doesn't seem any excuse that it would be inconvenient to dismount and clean it up; that's like saying I don't feel like cleaning up after my dog because I find it annoying. If you don't want to clean up after a horse, don't ride a horse, just like if you don't want to clean up after a dog, don't have a dog.

  17. #17
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    Ugh, having a strong sense of deja vu here, lol!

    Anyhoo, last night I was pedaling up Purisima Creek trail over in Half Moon Bay, and I happened to see a pile of horse ****. Sitting on top of the pile was a very large yellow banana slug digging in contentedly. I guess, one person's dung is another one's dinner.
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    I agree. But you should mail this to land managers. And everybody should, as often as possible. I have done it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    Grass In --> Grass Out
    Yeah, why don't you decorate your lawn with it. Put it on your dining room table while you are at it, and smear some over your floor.

    Grass in -> Feces out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Yeah, why don't you decorate your lawn with it. Put it on your dining room table while you are at it, and smear some over your floor.

    Grass in -> Feces out.
    I understand your use of hyperbole, but let me make myself clear - I'm not proposing that we all swim in horse ****. My comment was intended to poke a bit of fun at the serious tone often taken with regards to horse droppings on the trail.

    In the interest of full disclosure: besides hitting the MTB 3 days a week, i also own and ride a horse 3x a week. I primarily ride in a closed arena, where i pick up my horse's refuse. I've also ridden on multi-use trails, where i do not. I've found that once you get over the initial "icky" factor of dealing with an animal's waste droppings, horse poo is pretty benign as far as waste goes.

    The odor is low, and the droppings are something like 80% water by mass, so they dry out and break down quite quickly. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from horse manure, and if i recall correctly most of the communicable "bugs" we associate with feces are not carried by horses in any form that's infectious to humans.

    I've ridden in areas which were sensitive to weeds/ non-native plant species and have adhered to the rules requiring that feed brought into those areas be USDA certified "Weed Free" - i think these rules are important and should be followed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    I've never heard of anyone getting sick from horse manure, and if i recall correctly most of the communicable "bugs" we associate with feces are not carried by horses in any form that's infectious to humans.

    Excellent reply. Certainly can't blame all the equine-lovers. But my previous posting highlights that there are communicable or zoonotic "bugs"; namely Salmonella, Campy and Crypto. Just search CDC-Horse-Zoonosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    I understand your use of hyperbole, but let me make myself clear - I'm not proposing that we all swim in horse ****. My comment was intended to poke a bit of fun at the serious tone often taken with regards to horse droppings on the trail.

    In the interest of full disclosure: besides hitting the MTB 3 days a week, i also own and ride a horse 3x a week. I primarily ride in a closed arena, where i pick up my horse's refuse. I've also ridden on multi-use trails, where i do not. I've found that once you get over the initial "icky" factor of dealing with an animal's waste droppings, horse poo is pretty benign as far as waste goes.

    The odor is low, and the droppings are something like 80% water by mass, so they dry out and break down quite quickly. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from horse manure, and if i recall correctly most of the communicable "bugs" we associate with feces are not carried by horses in any form that's infectious to humans.

    I've ridden in areas which were sensitive to weeds/ non-native plant species and have adhered to the rules requiring that feed brought into those areas be USDA certified "Weed Free" - i think these rules are important and should be followed.

    Cheers!
    -b
    The Odor is low? NOT!!!!!!!! Horse DUNG STINKS! I was on a multi use trail with Wifey in Nisene when a horse and rider rode by, this beast left a stink trail for hundreds of yards! No more nice Redwwod forest smell, smelt like a fricking farm in the redwoods. Not only was this beast craping down the trail, there was a giant pile right on the creek were endangered Steelhead and Coho Salmon try and swim. Come on equestrians!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    ..., and if i recall correctly most of the communicable "bugs" we associate with feces are not carried by horses in any form that's infectious to humans.
    ...
    While I agree that it's not as gross as dog poo, you are mistaken with the germs I believe.
    Horse manure can contain C. Parvum, Giardia, and. E. Coli - all of which are contractible by humans.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctripi
    Excellent reply. Certainly can't blame all the equine-lovers. But my previous posting highlights that there are communicable or zoonotic "bugs"; namely Salmonella, Campy and Crypto. Just search CDC-Horse-Zoonosis.
    Point taken. A little googling has taught me something - there are several communicable diseases, including some of those mentioned on this forum, which can be shared between horses and humans. It would seem that the primary mode of infection is the "fecal-oral route". A great article on the matter is here (Link) It's of note that most of these cross-contaminations require 1st that the animal be infected and 2nd that the person in question have a "suppressed" immune system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    Point taken. A little googling has taught me something - there are several communicable diseases, including some of those mentioned on this forum, which can be shared between horses and humans. It would seem that the primary mode of infection is the "fecal-oral route". A great article on the matter is here (Link) It's of note that most of these cross-contaminations require 1st that the animal be infected and 2nd that the person in question have a "suppressed" immune system.
    Do I dare click on the link for the "Fecal-Oral route" Nah, I'll take your word for it. I'm good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly

    The odor is low, and the droppings are something like 80% water by mass, so they dry out and break down quite quickly. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from horse manure, and if i recall correctly most of the communicable "bugs" we associate with feces are not carried by horses in any form that's infectious to humans.
    Most organic things are "mostly water" Yes, people have gotten sick from horse manure, look it up if you think I'm kidding. There is all sorts of stuff in there that is bad for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    Point taken. A little googling has taught me something - there are several communicable diseases, including some of those mentioned on this forum, which can be shared between horses and humans. It would seem that the primary mode of infection is the "fecal-oral route". A great article on the matter is here (Link) It's of note that most of these cross-contaminations require 1st that the animal be infected and 2nd that the person in question have a "suppressed" immune system.
    This. I used to work for USDA-ARS where we researched the movement of coliforms from various kinds of farm animal poop (cow, pig, horse, sheep, dog, geese, etc.) into groundwater. I know my poop. If I had to pick a poop to fly into my face, I'd rather it be horse poop than any other poop, bar none. Whether or not it should be on the trail is a value judgment, but objectively, if poop has to fly into your face, you want it to be horse poop.

    p.s. Can I ride your horse?

    p.p.s. POOP!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426
    Whether or not it should be on the trail is a value judgment, but objectively, if poop has to fly into your face, you want it to be horse poop.

    p.s. Can I ride your horse?
    Depends, can I ride your bike?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426
    ... but objectively, if poop has to fly into your face, you want it to be horse poop.
    Point taken (which made me laugh a little), but is there a no poop in my face option, please?

    I remember an mtb trip to mammoth years ago, through Yosemite. Like good mtbers, we refrained from riding the Yosemite goodness that was (all) deemed off limits. But we did do a hike on a recommended trail, as we passed through town... and had to side step our way around horse poop for a significant amount of the tail. Enough that I still remember our disgust that WE were the ones forbidden with our bikes, while horses crapped the whole place up and made it fairly miserable in places to hike.

    Maybe we just got unlucky with timing and trail choice. But it was memorable.

    On multi-use, horses should be required to wear crap bags strapped to their ass (and I don't mean donkey). Owner can empty it on the side of trail, fine, but horse can not empty himself ON the trail.

    Don't want to use crap bag? Don't ride multi use. There's plenty of designated horse trails to go crap on.

  30. #30
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    well one reason a lot of the riders don't dismount to clean up the horse manure is that they will not be able to get back up in the saddle.

    funny but true, most shorter riders and almost all of the portly ones need to use a mounting block [plastic steps or a step ladder] just to get onto the horses back....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Cut
    well one reason a lot of the riders don't dismount to clean up the horse manure is that they will not be able to get back up in the saddle.

    funny but true, most shorter riders and almost all of the portly ones need to use a mounting block [plastic steps or a step ladder] just to get onto the horses back....
    Well, it looks like their list of riding equipment just got longer then. Call it the price of riding on multi-use trails.

    The way I see it is there is zero excuse not to clean up. If you can't bring along a loading block, then use a manure bag. If you can't use the manure bag for some reason, then be prepared to dismount and use your shovel. If you disregard the rules and get caught, then be prepared to pay a fine.

    With the lack of State Park funding these days, initially the best we could hope for is signage to be put up asking riders to clean up or move waste to the side of the trail. Getting a new law on the books could take years.

    Pressure from other park users is probably the best way to make horseback riders pay attention.

    It works at the dog park.
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    Horses are beautiful, majestic animals that have been a tradition in are country since it's beginning. These romantic and inspirationaal beasts have been ridden by respected people such as John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and Ronald Reagan. Mountain Bikers are just a bunch of delinquent, selfish, tatooed punks out to terrorize hikers and equestrians, and destroy nature with their "killing machines". Maybe the mountain bikers should be required to clean up the horse poop, since they are the whiners that don't like it.

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    maybe you all are riding through unicorn crap. it has lucky charms in it. htfu

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    Bears poop in the woods too, are you going tell them to clean up after themselves. How about the mountain lion? I had a bird poop on my car the other day.

    These are multi-use trails, yeah having poop on the trails is annoying. I don't think it's worth writing to land managers. Mountain bikers getting all righteous about horse poop, reeks of hypocrisy to me. Aren't we supposed to be tough and the under dogs.

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    Ditto here too

    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    Bears poop in the woods too, are you going tell them to clean up after themselves. How about the mountain lion? I had a bird poop on my car the other day.

    These are multi-use trails, yeah having poop on the trails is annoying. I don't think it's worth writing to land managers. Mountain bikers getting all righteous about horse poop, reeks of hypocrisy to me. Aren't we supposed to be tough and the under dogs.
    The whiners need to perfect their bunny hop technique and stfu. Just a little hurtle in the trail.

    Never seen so much interest in crap.
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  36. #36
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    Are all the regular posters here such weenie wimp riders that a little horse scat in the trail ruins their day? Why not demand the trails be paved, enclosed, and air conditioned so you don't get your prissy sensitive little body dirty and sweaty? Afraid your manicured nails are gonna get ruined?

    Come back and post when you have something real to complain about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54
    . Why not demand the trails be paved, enclosed, and air conditioned so you don't get your prissy sensitive little body dirty and sweaty?....
    DOOD!!! (especially the bold part)
    Is there a petition I can sign?
    How can we make this happen?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers are annoyed by the crap, not just bikers. I know because I've talked to people from all of these groups.

    The point is, they are the only user group that leaves a huge mess behind. What the heck is wrong with finding that annoying and that it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect them to push it off to the side?

    Why don't you crap lovers go buy a horse and stick your head up its exit hole. You do nothing for mountain biking or any other trail users.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54
    Are all the regular posters here such weenie wimp riders that a little horse scat in the trail ruins their day? Why not demand the trails be paved, enclosed, and air conditioned so you don't get your prissy sensitive little body dirty and sweaty? Afraid your manicured nails are gonna get ruined?

    Come back and post when you have something real to complain about.
    Yeah, cause it's crazy to not want to ride through sh*t?

    Seriously?

    Riding though sh*t that is left behind by a non-native species being "ridden" by other trail users is not enjoying "nature".
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    Bears poop in the woods too, are you going tell them to clean up after themselves. How about the mountain lion? I had a bird poop on my car the other day.

    These are multi-use trails, yeah having poop on the trails is annoying. I don't think it's worth writing to land managers. Mountain bikers getting all righteous about horse poop, reeks of hypocrisy to me. Aren't we supposed to be tough and the under dogs.
    Bears and lions don't travel in groups of 20 dumping massive amounts of crap only on the trail. Leave no trace.
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    Thanks

    Great, now I have to think about C. Parvum, Giardia, and. E. Coli getting up in my mouth, nose and lungs as I gasp for air on those horse sh-t covered trails?

    All these years I thought those disgusting, stinky, 30 lb. piles of animal crap were a benign inconvenience.

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    ahh, we'll be fine....























    OR WILL WE?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, cause it's crazy to not want to ride through sh*t?

    Seriously?

    Riding though sh*t that is left behind by a non-native species being "ridden" by other trail users is not enjoying "nature".
    This.

    Having to avoid the rare deer or mountain lion mess, or even rabbit droppings, is fine- because it's a rare occurrence. Having to avoid huge piles of feces every 30 feet, in the middle of the best line in the trail (how do they do that?) is a disgusting PITB for anyone other than the other arrogant 'horse people'. And no, that smell isn't 'nature', it's crap.

  44. #44
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    These signs should be posted at all trailheads


  45. #45
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    Wurd.........

    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    Hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers are annoyed by the crap, not just bikers. I know because I've talked to people from all of these groups.

    The point is, they are the only user group that leaves a huge mess behind. What the heck is wrong with finding that annoying and that it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect them to push it off to the side?

    Why don't you crap lovers go buy a horse and stick your head up its exit hole. You do nothing for mountain biking or any other trail users.
    ..............
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  46. #46
    It's the axle
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    I've never seen one of these. Ever. I agree, they shouldn't be allowed to pollute our trails.

    I yelled at one of the riders here last summer. "Don't crap on the bike trail!" Even if it isn't just a bike trail. It may have worked since I haven't seen a horse pile this summer. Man, I would so like to get along with everyone. All it takes is a little thought and effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haus Boss
    These signs should be posted at all trailheads


  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    Grass In --> Grass + lots of bacteria from the gut Out

    fixed it for you, since I hear this all the time and its incorrect.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    Hikers, trail runners and mountain bikers are annoyed by the crap, not just bikers. I know because I've talked to people from all of these groups.

    The point is, they are the only user group that leaves a huge mess behind. What the heck is wrong with finding that annoying and that it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect them to push it off to the side?

    Why don't you crap lovers go buy a horse and stick your head up its exit hole. You do nothing for mountain biking or any other trail users.
    Let me guess, everyone else is wrong in design reviews too. I think your sample size should be increased or maybe get some data without a leading question.

    Poop on the trail isn't the best thing but it certainly isn't the worst thing. For me the worst thing is being told I don't belong on the trail. Which has happened and continues on trails which cyclists have had access to in the past.

    The horses have been around for a long time, they have also been pooping for a long time. It isn't like horse poop is a recent discovery. You heard about the guy who bought a place next to the dump, and then complained about the smell. The people who buy a house next to the airport, and then try and have flight paths changed....all those people are lame.

    Writing to land managers to complain about a pre-existing condition or right given to another user group, doesn't solve a problem, it turns you into the problem.

    Why do I know this? maybe it has something to do with my involvement in trail advocacy and trail access for the last 15 years. Maybe it's Relating to the 400+ hours of trail work I have performed, or has something to do with half dozen times I've been leader for one of the massive Chris King Trail Daze efforts, or when I was race director of the Parkfield Classic for a couple years, or some of the Sonoma County Open space meetings I've been attending to help with access at Taylor Mountain in Santa Rosa.... maybe it's all those things, and a little common sense.

    I'm not going tell you to be excited about horse poop, unless you are gardening, but I don't see starting a letter writing campaign making anything better. At the minimum complaining about horse poop is complaining about something that really isn't a big deal. The mountain bike community has suffered from that enough, enough that I'm not going to encourage or condone it happening to other groups.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haus Boss
    These signs should be posted at all trailheads

    I like this one at Lake Oroville in CA


    BRAAAP-BRAAAP!!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  50. #50
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    Cool-blue Rhythm I bag my dogs' [email protected]

    Horses should use crap bags on multi use. It's an easy and considerate thing for the horse owner to do. I like horses.

  51. #51
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    I agree that conducting a survey to find out if enough people believe it negatively affects their experience would be worth doing before spending too much effort trying to correct the perceived problem.

    The argument that horses have been around for a long time, so are somehow grandfathered in from leaving no trace while this is required of other users is bogus.

    There are areas that at one time motorcycles were allowed to tear up, but are now designated for hikers, cyclists and horseback riders. It was deemed that motor vehicles detracted from the enjoyment and safety of other users. Just because something has been a certain way for 50 years does not mean it can not, or should not change. Also, if horseback riders make up 10% of total users while cyclists make up 75% and hikers/ runners 15%, then equestrians will have a hard time fighting the issue if it is supported by a majority of users.

    If 10% of trail users don't think horse manure in the trail is an issue, then nothing will change.
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  52. #52
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    horse people are d0uch3 bags- but this thread is ridiculous. It would be asking a LOT to have them pick up every pile the horses leave, if they were even aware of it when the horse dropped. get over it and ride- that's what i do.

    it is a considerate thing for us to ride all trails at 15 mph and respect the "no bikes" trail rules too, but somehow i don't think we are gonna stick to those. i imagine i will be seen as an unreasonable prick for trying to equate those things, but come on, lets all be nice and just go about our business...

  53. #53
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    Starting another pissing match isn't going to do us any good as a user group. We should be spending this energy working toward collaborative relationships with horse groups. It happens, and it works.

    I don't mind horse crap. Grew up with the stuff...

  54. #54
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    Well put

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamac
    horse people are d0uch3 bags- but this thread is ridiculous. It would be asking a LOT to have them pick up every pile the horses leave, if they were even aware of it when the horse dropped. get over it and ride- that's what i do.

    it is a considerate thing for us to ride all trails at 15 mph and respect the "no bikes" trail rules too, but somehow i don't think we are gonna stick to those. i imagine i will be seen as an unreasonable prick for trying to equate those things, but come on, lets all be nice and just go about our business...
    My sentiments exactly. Just carry on.
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  55. #55
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    Ditto here too

    Quote Originally Posted by tjp
    Starting another pissing match isn't going to do us any good as a user group. We should be spending this energy working toward collaborative relationships with horse groups. It happens, and it works.

    I don't mind horse crap. Grew up with the stuff...
    Mucked out many a stall for room and board.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadly
    Depends, can I ride your bike?
    If you can fit on it. I'm 5'2" tall.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjamac
    It would be asking a LOT to have them pick up every pile the horses leave, if they were even aware of it when the horse dropped.
    They can fit a bag to catch it. And if it is too much to ask to leave the trails the way they found it for other users to enjoy - and to not expose others to dangerous, unpredictable, and nowadays generally poorly trained dumb animals - then they have no business being on public trails. There are private ranches for them to enjoy, not that they will be hurting for money.

    If you grew up wallowing in horse poo - good for you, but I see no reason your attitude has to be shared by other civilized people. I absolutely do not enjoy watching over my not-yet two year old not to run into a pile in Arastradero. Horse owners are cruel animal abusers with their mind stuck in a time long gone. Time to prohibit animal slavery.

  58. #58
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    I saw horse poo at Pacifica this weekend. Yes, on that trail, and that trail. I was less disturbed by the idea of riding through the poo than I was by the thought that there are people who think riding a horse on those trails is a good idea. Makes me worry about those horsies. Stupid people.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  59. #59
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    I'll weigh in here as one who goes "both ways", I've got 4 horses and too many bicycles to count. My son and I prefer riding MTBs and my wife and daughter prefer riding the horses. Sometimes we'll do a combined outing, we get a lot of stares from both cyclists and equestrians! If I'm behind one of our horses on a narrow single track and it drops a "steamer", I'll get off my bike and kick it (the steamer) off the trail. Horse crap is nowhere near as toxic as some posts here allege.

    We always clean up after our horses in the parking areas, most parks require this---most horse people are as conscientious like-wise. As far as "deposits" on the open road (trail), horse manure is about as bio-degradable as a substance can be.

    There are such things as "tail bags" (Google "horse diapers" for more info) and while typically used in metropolitan areas (carriage rides) they are a real hassle and something that not all horses will tolerate. Plus they don't do much for the John Wayne image!

    I fear that complaints from the MTB community RE horse manure could have serious backlash---there are plenty of hiking zealots that would like to see both horses and bikes banned from "their" trails. United we stand, divided we fall....
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    Horse crap is nowhere near as toxic as some posts here allege.
    My crap is not toxic either, but I do not go and take a dump on the neighbors lawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    There are such things as "tail bags" (Google "horse diapers" for more info) and while typically used in metropolitan areas (carriage rides) they are a real hassle
    Hassle indeed. How dare the plebs to inconvenience the horse riders.

    The biggest problem with equestrians is not the manure. It is their active, toxic, filled with lies, and unfortunately effective campaigning to exclude mountain biking from "multi" use trails. Negative impact of horses - both on trail and on the experience of others just exacerbates the perceived hypocrisy. I am not talking about you - I am talking about the equestrian community as a whole.

  61. #61
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    In all seriousness, I think my level of resentment of crap on a trail correlates to the attitude of the equestrians where I am riding. At Annadel where things between equestrians and cyclists is usually cool and I can legally ride all the single rack I want, I don’t curse every pile I see. Even more so at Boggs. When riding in Marin, it drives me nuts because equestrians (Not all, I know) try to block any attempt at sharing the trails and relegate bikes to fire roads only. It makes the whole disregarding poo thing a lot harder.

  62. #62
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    "

    We always clean up after our horses in the parking areas, most parks require this---most horse people are as conscientious like-wise. As far as "deposits" on the open road (trail), horse manure is about as bio-degradable as a substance can be"


    by that logic, isnt human excrement almost as bio-degradable, if not more? why not let humans and dogs defecate in the middle of the trail then? aren't all forms of excrement significant disease transmission vectors?

    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg
    I'll weigh in here as one who goes "both ways", I've got 4 horses and too many bicycles to count. My son and I prefer riding MTBs and my wife and daughter prefer riding the horses. Sometimes we'll do a combined outing, we get a lot of stares from both cyclists and equestrians! If I'm behind one of our horses on a narrow single track and it drops a "steamer", I'll get off my bike and kick it (the steamer) off the trail. Horse crap is nowhere near as toxic as some posts here allege.

    We always clean up after our horses in the parking areas, most parks require this---most horse people are as conscientious like-wise. As far as "deposits" on the open road (trail), horse manure is about as bio-degradable as a substance can be.

    There are such things as "tail bags" (Google "horse diapers" for more info) and while typically used in metropolitan areas (carriage rides) they are a real hassle and something that not all horses will tolerate. Plus they don't do much for the John Wayne image!

    I fear that complaints from the MTB community RE horse manure could have serious backlash---there are plenty of hiking zealots that would like to see both horses and bikes banned from "their" trails. United we stand, divided we fall....
    94 Specialized Rockhopper

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    ...Also, if horseback riders make up 10% of total users while cyclists make up 75% and hikers/ runners 15%, then equestrians will have a hard time fighting the issue if it is supported by a majority of users.
    Even if you're numbers were correct, you're missing that fact that majority doesn't rule - money does. Generally (in the Bay Area) equestrians have lots and lots of dough.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boognish
    Even if you're numbers were correct, you're missing that fact that majority doesn't rule - money does. Generally (in the Bay Area) equestrians have lots and lots of dough.
    .. and of spare time. And the general seething disdain for the rest of us.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    .. and of spare time. And the general seething disdain for the rest of us.
    Like I said above, there's an annoying group of equestrians in the bay area who truly believe they are better than everyone else. Not all of them, but some...

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    DOOD!!! (especially the bold part)
    Is there a petition I can sign?
    How can we make this happen?
    for serious! It's ungodly hot around here lately...an air conditioned run down guardian's would be divine.
    "Got everything you need?"

  67. #67
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    I don't think it's too much to ask to have a "no poop on the trails" law passed, at least on multi-use trails. I love horses, but I'm not going to ask the other 98% of people on the trail to smell horse $hit, and I don't know why anyone else would either. It ruins the experience, just like trash, empty beer cans, and dog crap. Maybe horse owners would feel differently if they actually had some horse manure thrown in their face, or had to clean it off the underside of their bike.

    I just don't see why I need to put up with another person's horse $hit. It's not my animal and it's not my responsibility.
    "Got everything you need?"

  68. #68
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    [QUOTE=pliebenberg]There are such things as "tail bags" (Google "horse diapers" for more info) and while typically used in metropolitan areas (carriage rides) they are a real hassle and something that not all horses will tolerate. Plus they don't do much for the John Wayne image!QUOTE]

    I had no idea such a thing existed. When you use tolerate and hassle as reasons not to use them, I have to counter with why should I tolerate stopping my ride to get off the trail so someone on horse doesn't have to hassle with controling their animal? That's it, I'm never stopping for another horse beacuse its a "hassle" that i don't want to "tolerate".

    Besides, the rules of the trail are "stay on the trail" and I'm not one to break the rules. If you can't pass other users on the trail with out someone having to step off the trail and potentially damage sensitive habitat, you shouldn't be on the trail. If you are one that sticks to fireroads, I am not directing this at you.

    We all know if John Wayne were alive today he would be ripping on an 8" travel bike!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    Let me guess, everyone else is wrong in design reviews too. I think your sample size should be increased or maybe get some data without a leading question.

    Poop on the trail isn't the best thing but it certainly isn't the worst thing. For me the worst thing is being told I don't belong on the trail. Which has happened and continues on trails which cyclists have had access to in the past.

    The horses have been around for a long time, they have also been pooping for a long time. It isn't like horse poop is a recent discovery. You heard about the guy who bought a place next to the dump, and then complained about the smell. The people who buy a house next to the airport, and then try and have flight paths changed....all those people are lame.

    Writing to land managers to complain about a pre-existing condition or right given to another user group, doesn't solve a problem, it turns you into the problem.

    Why do I know this? maybe it has something to do with my involvement in trail advocacy and trail access for the last 15 years. Maybe it's Relating to the 400+ hours of trail work I have performed, or has something to do with half dozen times I've been leader for one of the massive Chris King Trail Daze efforts, or when I was race director of the Parkfield Classic for a couple years, or some of the Sonoma County Open space meetings I've been attending to help with access at Taylor Mountain in Santa Rosa.... maybe it's all those things, and a little common sense.

    I'm not going tell you to be excited about horse poop, unless you are gardening, but I don't see starting a letter writing campaign making anything better. At the minimum complaining about horse poop is complaining about something that really isn't a big deal. The mountain bike community has suffered from that enough, enough that I'm not going to encourage or condone it happening to other groups.
    hahaha, awesome.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz Cut
    well one reason a lot of the riders don't dismount to clean up the horse manure is that they will not be able to get back up in the saddle.

    funny but true, most shorter riders and almost all of the portly ones need to use a mounting block [plastic steps or a step ladder] just to get onto the horses back....
    They then need to do what I do, buy one that fits! Standover height is somewhat important.

  71. #71
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    "We always clean up after our horses in the parking areas, most parks require this---most horse people are as conscientious like-wise. As far as "deposits" on the open road (trail), horse manure is about as bio-degradable as a substance can be"

    I appreciate that you at least clean up after your horses in the parking areas.


    What of the various medicines that are fed to horses these days, and their effects onto the ground and ground water?

  72. #72
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    I'm sick of riders not cleaning up all their tiger crap
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I'm sick of riders not cleaning up all their tiger crap
    But are you going to tell someone riding one of those things they are wrong?

  74. #74
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    **** Happens!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze
    **** Happens!
    Found this about 200 yards away from our 7000' camping spot last week. Does not look like tiger or horse, must be Yogi or BuBu
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Horse crap in the trail-bearcrap.jpg  


  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Found this about 200 yards away from our 7000' camping spot last week. Does not look like tiger or horse, must be Yogi or BuBu
    I say all animals should be required to wear diapers!

    Btw, your bike has some funny white thing on it. Does it help you go faster?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumblingcrustacean
    I say all animals should be required to wear diapers!

    Btw, your bike has some funny white thing on it. Does it help you go faster?
    Well physical protection from the elements make for less maintenance, be it brush or dirt its all bad for the drive train so yes I do use a trail condom and my wife is OK with it.

    Now I'm moving into chaps, cause the trails are overgrown and legs tear but those J Pines sure smell good, and the S Sierra sure has some trails to die for
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Horse crap in the trail-picture-1150s.jpg  

    Horse crap in the trail-picture-1132s.jpg  

    Horse crap in the trail-picture-1152s.jpg  

    Horse crap in the trail-picture-1147s.jpg  


  78. #78
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    I think the forums need an additional smiley...

    [note: I do not in any way condone animal torture, or forum torture]
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  79. #79
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    you people are still going on about poop.

    When I was little I used to throw dry horse poop and cow poop at my brother and sister. It seemed to cause fewer injuries than throwing rocks.

  80. #80
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpressnall
    Mountain Bikers are beautiful, majestic animals that have been a tradition in our country since it's beginning. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and Ronald Reagan are just a bunch of delinquent, selfish, tatooed "killing machines".
    Signed,
    Terri A and Mike V

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Horse crap in the trail-cid_3eb021e5-9be5-4920-af43-123eea44ac12%40local.jpg  


  81. #81
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    This should be at all the trailheads

    This would make my day...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Horse crap in the trail-horsepoop.jpg  


  82. #82
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    Better yet, I spotted this at a local trail...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  83. #83
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    Haaa this thread rules. We have the same problem out east. Unfortunately there are some super pro equestrians near our trails too, so they ride those donkeys all over and leave pumpkin sized dumps.

    I don't mind the horse doots made of hay compared to the dog crap I see now and then though, friggin poison chang Alpo. Some fat moms walk their dogs and let them go right at the beginning of the best trails. I don't have pets because I don't have a big huge yard for them to enjoy. Why do people get a big dog for their 2 bedroom shack? Do they think a big, healthy dog wants that weak life? Do they like to watch Oprah on TV? To go on a leash to crap on some random spots on a "walk"? I say some dog owners are selfish cows - "ohh he's sweet, I love him, he's my best friend". Shave it lady! I'm tempted to nail a giant sign there like 20 feet up that says "no dog crap & no lazy dog owners".

  84. #84
    Weird huh?
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    PooP thread LIVES!


    ...poop

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  85. #85
    I like mtn biking, too
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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! Die thread die!

    Oh. oops.
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  86. #86
    OOOOOOOh Gee Are Eee
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    Saw a thread about Horse Crap and I figured Road Kill was around...

  87. #87
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    Now I really have to go....excuse me.
    Too many bikes, and just enough time to ride them.

  88. #88
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    The first rule of Poop Thread - Long live poop thread!

  89. #89
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    There are products out there for this - horse diapers:



    Should be required IMHO. Or, the horse folks should pay for a service which cleans the trails. Although I'd rather ride through a pile of horse manure than through a wet cow patty or dog feces.

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    Bunnyhop it amd move along.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion
    Bunnyhop it amd move along.
    My kids can not bunnyhop.

    It is very unpleasant when I walk with my two-year old in Arastradero and he point at every fresh pile -- and it is a lot of them -- and says "horse poop". I do not think that it is a good experience. Horse riders here are egotistical, selfish and despicable people.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    My kids can not bunnyhop.

    It is very unpleasant when I walk with my two-year old in Arastradero and he point at every fresh pile -- and it is a lot of them -- and says "horse poop".
    Hi Curmy,

    In my experience, that is what 2 year olds do. He'll be 3 before you know it.

    HC

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    Hi Curmy,

    In my experience, that is what 2 year olds do. He'll be 3 before you know it.

    HC
    Yes, my 6yo daughter does not say that. Neither do I. But that does not make smelly piles of horse crap on a trail any more of a pleasant experience.

  94. #94
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    What we see here is that all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  95. #95
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    Sorry to threadjack this Golden State conversation from the East Coast but if you guys out there are talking and hating horse crap that much (I do too) then do NOT ever think of moving to Pennsylvania horse country (Bucks, Montgomery, Chester counties) outside Philadelphia. Virtually all park trails are open to horses with enough crap in the fn stall to turn any MTB tire into a slick. What a PITA!

    Norcal trail pics are cool.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    My kids can not bunnyhop.

    It is very unpleasant when I walk with my two-year old in Arastradero and he point at every fresh pile -- and it is a lot of them -- and says "horse poop". I do not think that it is a good experience. Horse riders here are egotistical, selfish and despicable people.
    If they can't bunnyhop - YOU FORCE THEM!!!!

    Set up some CX barriers and crack the whip.

    Yeah, I'm not to fond of the horse crap. I yield to horses everytime, and one time I said, "Yield to the bigger vehicle!" and some stupid lady (and most of the times they are women - what's with that?) was, all, like, "You're right! Yield to us!"

    I felt like telling her to f*ck off, but MTB'ing keeps me in a Zen-like state.

  97. #97
    Rollin 29s
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    I like the horse diaper! If they are too fat or lazy to get off the horse to shovel it off to the side, then bring on the equestri-Huggies.
    Whoever invented the bicycle deserves the thanks of humanity.
    - Lord Charles Beresford

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by plantdude

    Looks flexy ....

    The poop thread must live on!!!!

    er, wait.... Is that a diaper or Mr Ed's banana hammock ...?

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    Dog crap is environmentally unfriendly because of the additional chemicals in their food.
    Horse crap isn't because they eat mostly pure, raw feed.

    There's the real answer why you must clean up one and not the other on the trail.


    In public areas they are still required to clean up because of the yuckiness/health factor.
    On the trail they are just another 'natural' animal, and can thus crap in the woods whenever they want.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masher
    Dog crap is environmentally unfriendly because of the additional chemicals in their food.
    Horse crap isn't because they eat mostly pure, raw feed.
    Containing seeds of non-native plant species.

    It does not matter how ecologically friendly a pile of stinky feces is - I do not want it on my childrens feet and I do not enjoy the smell and the nuisance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masher
    they are just another 'natural' animal, and can thus crap in the woods whenever they want.
    Natural animal do not crap on the trail. They crap in the woods. Those are not natural animals - they are dressed in steel shoes, they do not roam free on pastures and they have jerks riding on them. Those are slave animal toys. Nothing natural about it.

  101. #101
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    Natural animal do not crap on the trail.
    BS I see scat in the middle of the trail all the time. Coyote / Bobcat scat I suppose

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron
    BS I see scat in the middle of the trail all the time. Coyote / Bobcat scat I suppose
    In 30lb incriments and 10 feet long trails?, multiplied many times due to 5-10 bobcats traveling in groups?

    Not even close. I see poop from "natural" animals on the trails too, the volume of poop I see from horses is many times that, on a different scale.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  103. #103
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    The equestrians are riding at night at Annadel -- probably to avoid other users they would encounter during the day time. I ride before sun up one or 2 days per week and there's always dozens of fresh piles allover the trails. This is really annoying when the shadows cast by your lights hide the poop behind rocks you are about to roll over.
    Whoever invented the bicycle deserves the thanks of humanity.
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65
    Why don't you crap lovers go buy a horse and stick your head up its exit hole. You do nothing for mountain biking or any other trail users.
    opinions are like azzholes....you know the rest


  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    In 30lb incriments and 10 feet long trails?, multiplied many times due to 5-10 bobcats traveling in groups?

    Not even close. I see poop from "natural" animals on the trails too, the volume of poop I see from horses is many times that, on a different scale.
    true

  106. #106
    It's the axle
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    If a trail is shared, then there is a responsibility of those who use the trail to respect other users. Is that not a rule of the road? After all, we have to yield to equestrians.

    I propose that if equestrians are to use trails that are also used by other forms of trail users, then they have to leave the trails as they found them.

    Otherwise, my trail experience yesterday consisted of avoiding the impact of the previous user. My trail experience was diminished by those who left the trail in a condition other than that which they found it.

    I kept thinking, I don't crap on your driveway. I felt so selfish thinking about it, until I realized that it's actually selfish to deposit stuff on the trail as you use it, whether it's beer cans or feces.

    edit- instead of driveway, substitute sidewalk. One is private, and isn't a good example.
    Note to self: 85% of FTP for 20 min.

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