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  1. #1
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    Doping Comes To Enduro

    Only a matter of time, where there's money, there's cheating in sport. Doping comes to enduro racing. Before reading the article, my first thoughts were stimulants would be an advantage in Enduro style racing and well, here ya go.....

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exclus...ws-france.html

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30188222

    and

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ell-oxilofrine

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    Interviews of Richie and Jared had just been published.

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    accidental ingestion = lying sacks of sh*t


    Two-time champ Richie Rude and one-time champ Jared Graves have both confirmed to Pinkbike that they tested positive for Higenamine (banned in and out of competition) and Oxilofrine (banned in-competition) at the third round of the series in France. They say that their failed tests were due to accidental ingestion.
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    Hopefully they both pay some serious consequences.
    Interesting that France consistently leads the way here. Our involvement is smoke, mirrors, and geopolitics.
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    Those two are as thick as thieves

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    i have been following a lot of similar cases from mma/ufc. it would be very useful to know if they detected trace amounts or they were doped to the gills. most supplement companies use cheap suppliers, it is not uncommon to see vitamins and amphetamines come out of the same production facility with cross contamination.

    before we know all the details, they should benefit from due process and presumption of innocence.

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    every damn time we have presumed a pro cyclist innocent, they end up guilty.

    not falling for that horseshit again.

    if you dope, don't get caught, it is that simple. get caught, find another career.

    example:
    I am a multi-million dollar sports sponsor and parts supplier, do I want to touch this with a ten foot pole NO. the faster this athlete shuts up, dries up, and blows away the better.
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    You guys know they dope in CURLING right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Doping Comes To Enduro
    I assumed it was an integral part of the fun?

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    Per the interview with Rude, "There were super low amounts of whatever substances were in the test; it was parts per billion."

    Sounds like it could be a f*ck-up on Ryno power? I'm not sure how much is needed to affect performance, or what a "normal" level of the stuff in a user would be.
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    Tough crowd. I'll wait for more details before forming an opinion.

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    Doping Comes To Enduro

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Per the interview with Rude, "There were super low amounts of whatever substances were in the test; it was parts per billion."

    Sounds like it could be a f*ck-up on Ryno power? I'm not sure how much is needed to affect performance, or what a "normal" level of the stuff in a user would be.
    When they ran the test it was “super low”. But not sure that would also be true during his race runs. There was an article linked in the comments saying that this drug had a very short half-life and burns off quickly.

    Edit: I wouldn’t think it would be Ryno Power at fault considering there are many pro moto guys sponsored by them, and they get drug tested far more frequently and I don’t know of any known problems.

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    I don't think Hughes is stupid enough to ruin his brand its his life. Not to mention he's got a lot of athletes on his programs including nutrition.

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    What happened to due process?

    Graves is currently undergoing chemo for a brain tumor to boot.

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    Wow, seriously unsubstantiated overreactions. If you believe their words in the interviews it's unintentional. "Parts per billion". Pretty lame to label that as "doping". That's pretty harsh.

    I have no knowledge of these substances, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until some authority or "expert" says otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Wow, seriously unsubstantiated overreactions. If you believe their words in the interviews it's unintentional. "Parts per billion". Pretty lame to label that as "doping". That's pretty harsh.

    I have no knowledge of these substances, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until some authority or "expert" says otherwise.



    the experts have chimed in...you been asleep or what ?

    they are the doping agencies. French Anti-Doping Agency said 'violation'

    period.
    end of discussion for now until they issue a public ruling and then the process of denial or retraction goes through them and only them.

    you can cry and whine about it all you want, but until that agency has a reason to retract this ruling, they are BONED. they will investigate further and can retract this (as they sometimes do when it is shown it was a mistake) but right now, the officials have spoken.

    you can cry about your dog tugboat or shed tears on punkbike photo ops, but the agency has spoken

    since nearly ALL busted cyclist spend days/weeks/months claimng 'the dog did it' and still end up penalized, it is not worth much hoping these two punks are innocent. but they may be. until then....cannot support them one bit.

    tell ya what a hit of the old 'buterol will drop years off your legs fast. pros know all the tricks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the experts have chimed in...you been asleep or what ?

    they are the doping agencies. French Anti-Doping Agency said 'violation'

    period.
    end of discussion.

    you can cry and whine about it all you want, but until that agency has a reason to retract this ruling, they are BONED. they will investigate further and can retract this (as they sometimes do) but right now, the officials have spoken.

    you can cry about your dog tugboat or shed tears on punkbike photo ops, but the agency has spoken
    Would you call it Doping?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Would you call it Doping?
    yup. until they retract this for some other reason, doping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    yup. until they retract this for some other reason, doping.
    Perhaps not everyone sees things in Black and White like you seem to.

    I understand that the substances found were on the banned list, and the athletes are responsible for what goes in their bodies, but if there's no ill intent and no performance gain at extremely low levels, I would not accuse someone of cheating.

    This sounds extremely similar to what happened to Maria Sharapova last year. She had been taking something for 10+ years and the rules changed. Suddenly she tested positive for a newly banned substance. She was initially banned for 2 years then reduced to 1 or something. Yes she is ultimately responsible for not knowing what rules had changed, but still seemed harsh to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    What happened to due process?.
    The "due process" is on the punishment, not that they were caught doping. The french agency found the substances in both Rude and Graves. They both said "yep, you found it. We must have accidentally took it."

    There is no argument that it was in their blood. The only argument is around punishment. i.e. does Rude have enough evidence / story telling to convince anyone that it was unintentional. If he does - that will be taken into consideration for his punishment.

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    Next question, if the testing was done on May 13th why were they allowed to compete the rest of the season? Why is it only coming out now? Am I missing something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    "yep, you found it. We must have accidentally took it."
    Negative Nancy's aiming for the dark side.

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    Im curious to see how this pans out, I think its sensitive for us because it feels like a tight knit group as far as cycling is especially the guys on the enduro/downhill side of the sport. Some people i think are a little harsh and the lines dont seem very clear on what is performance enhancing and how things are enforced or tested for. Hopefully it wasnt blatant and there is some sort of realistic explanation. Also kind of ironic that these guys are sponsored by redbull and monster who has all kinds of "energy and mental boosters" but are popped for stuff that I believe one of which is naturally occurring in some plants

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Next question, if the testing was done on May 13th why were they allowed to compete the rest of the season? Why is it only coming out now? Am I missing something?
    I forget which article i read that stated it but I believe it has something to do with the concentration or the obviousness of its presence or something to that effect, but they did also mention that race results may be stripped as part of the sanctioning.

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    Just kind of a side note. While concepts of due process of law are applicable to any sort of decision making with consequences for a person, it really only applies to the government, and the US federal and state governments, particularly.

    Private entities owe no due process to anyone. If their processes for determining "guilt" are flawed, that should be publicized, and might result in a civil suit, but they don't legally owe anyone due process.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the experts have chimed in...you been asleep or what ?

    they are the doping agencies. French Anti-Doping Agency said 'violation'

    period.
    end of discussion for now until they issue a public ruling and then the process of denial or retraction goes through them and only them.

    you can cry and whine about it all you want, but until that agency has a reason to retract this ruling, they are BONED. they will investigate further and can retract this (as they sometimes do when it is shown it was a mistake) but right now, the officials have spoken.

    you can cry about your dog tugboat or shed tears on punkbike photo ops, but the agency has spoken

    since nearly ALL busted cyclist spend days/weeks/months claimng 'the dog did it' and still end up penalized, it is not worth much hoping these two punks are innocent. but they may be. until then....cannot support them one bit.

    tell ya what a hit of the old 'buterol will drop years off your legs fast. pros know all the tricks.
    Albuterol? Lol ya ok.... if I wanted to cheat in enduro there are a lot of things I would take before a b2 agonist... like blood doping or testosterone enhancement. Opening up your lungs a little bit (and increasing your HR) doesn’t seem like much of an advantage in enduro. My HR spikes high enough going all out for 7-15 minutes it doesn’t need to go any higher.
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    I s'pose not too many asthmatics race enduro.

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    Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how WADA/French Federation analyzes rider samples? I assume it's with mass spec.

    I'd be curious to know what their protocol is, what their false positive rates are for their assays, if they have 1 person versus multiple working up the urine/blood samples, and what their credentials are-- given the grave effect a positive test can have on a rider's career and reputation. I would not be surprised if the lab working up the samples had some kid fresh out of undergrad making 10 bucks an hour running the experiments. In Richie and Jared's case, it is unfortunate that they had no B sample.

    Overall, I'd really just like to believe Richie, Jared, and even Broc Tickle on the moto side are not actively trying to cheat. If true, it is a loss for the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    i have been following a lot of similar cases from mma/ufc. it would be very useful to know if they detected trace amounts or they were doped to the gills. most supplement companies use cheap suppliers, it is not uncommon to see vitamins and amphetamines come out of the same production facility with cross contamination.

    before we know all the details, they should benefit from due process and presumption of innocence.

    This^ if you follow ufc mma or listen to joe Rogan podcast you will know that there’s a huge amount of supplements that are tainted with steroids.. it’s crazy, literally 1000’s of them. You can walk into GNC and buy some random supplement and there’s a good chance it’s tainted as supplements are totally unregulated by fda.

    Quick google of substance in question: https://www.thedailybeast.com/banned...14-supplements

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    While it is true that supplements can contain unlisted banned and even dangerous substances, cyclists, as well as most athletes, have an abysmal record of actually using PEDs when the tests say they do, regardless of the protests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAYR751 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how WADA/French Federation analyzes rider samples? I assume it's with mass spec.

    I'd be curious to know what their protocol is, what their false positive rates are for their assays, if they have 1 person versus multiple working up the urine/blood samples, and what their credentials are-- given the grave effect a positive test can have on a rider's career and reputation. I would not be surprised if the lab working up the samples had some kid fresh out of undergrad making 10 bucks an hour running the experiments. In Richie and Jared's case, it is unfortunate that they had no B sample.
    Blaming WADA is really silly.

    Here's a good flick to watch if you're interested in what it takes to game the doping system:

    https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079

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    Test positive = guilty. Go research James Stewart. Not only are you screwed, but they take forever to come down with a suspension. Tickle is still waiting and it's been over 6 months and SX starts in a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Blaming WADA is really silly.

    Here's a good flick to watch if you're interested in what it takes to game the doping system:

    https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079
    I am not blaming WADA. Just interested to know how they are doing these tests and how accurate they believe them to be before we destroy someones career. I worked in a mass spec lab. False positives were a problem for us.

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    my guess based on their interviews, lawyers comments, substances involved etc. is that they are testing everything they ingested leading up to the positive test. If they can find any supplement, energy drink, etc. that contains the two substances, then they will argue it was accidental and request a reduced sentence. They didn't request the B samples get tested so that's likely their only argument. If they are unable to do that, then they will likely simply determine what restrictions they have on other forms of racing. Jared has more important things to worry about now.

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    [QUOTE=fitnessgeek;13897357]my guess based on their interviews, lawyers comments, substances involved etc. is that they are testing everything they ingested leading up to the positive test. If they can find any supplement, energy drink, etc. that contains the two substances, then they will argue it was accidental and request a reduced sentence. They didn't request the B samples get tested so that's likely their only argument. If they are unable to do that, then they will likely simply determine what restrictions they have on other forms of racing. Jared has more important things to worry about now.[/QUOTE

    Blah Blah Blah. Take pro racers as a role model with a grain of salt, admire them for their skills. Mathieu VDP, Wout and Nino. Any of these guys would kill it on the enduro circuit. Far better doping regulations administered to the 4 listed above than any of the Enduro circuit. Does it make a difference in Enduro?

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    This is an old article, but a good one on what it's actually like to take PED's.

    https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test

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    Quote Originally Posted by dw22107 View Post
    Mathieu VDP, Wout and Nino. Any of these guys would kill it on the enduro circuit.
    I don’t agree with that.

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    [QUOTE=dw22107;13897373]
    Quote Originally Posted by fitnessgeek View Post
    my guess based on their interviews, lawyers comments, substances involved etc. is that they are testing everything they ingested leading up to the positive test. If they can find any supplement, energy drink, etc. that contains the two substances, then they will argue it was accidental and request a reduced sentence. They didn't request the B samples get tested so that's likely their only argument. If they are unable to do that, then they will likely simply determine what restrictions they have on other forms of racing. Jared has more important things to worry about now.[/QUOTE

    Blah Blah Blah. Take pro racers as a role model with a grain of salt, admire them for their skills. Mathieu VDP, Wout and Nino. Any of these guys would kill it on the enduro circuit. Far better doping regulations administered to the 4 listed above than any of the Enduro circuit. Does it make a difference in Enduro?
    does it make a difference in nascar ?
    does it make a difference in v8 ?
    does it make a difference in f1 ?
    does it make a difference in curling ?
    does it make a difference in chess ?

    yes,yes,yes,yes, and yes

    does it make a difference in any sport ?

    all these need focus and stamina
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBoardman View Post
    When they ran the test it was “super low”. But not sure that would also be true during his race runs. There was an article linked in the comments saying that this drug had a very short half-life and burns off quickly.

    Edit: I wouldn’t think it would be Ryno Power at fault considering there are many pro moto guys sponsored by them, and they get drug tested far more frequently and I don’t know of any known problems.
    not all products would be contaminated all the time, it would have to be just certain batches here and there, when they stop making the hot stuff at the factory and use the same machines for supplements right after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the experts have chimed in...you been asleep or what ?

    they are the doping agencies. French Anti-Doping Agency said 'violation'

    period.
    sound to me like guilty until proven innocent.

    dont rush to judgement, that just means they found something. it doesnt mean guilt or intent. could very well be negligence from them or their cook or their sponsor. they will get one year minimum suspension i believe, even in this case, which is harsh anyway. any pro athlete is responsible for everything that ends up in their body. but you have no idea how hard it is to track EVERYTHING. every batch of vitamins, you have to save all the bottles just in case they turn up hot later and you have to go hunt for similar bottles at pharmacies and test them to prove they came hot from the factory, which happens A LOT. its a logistical nightmare and most pro athletes just dont have that many people working for them to be able to prove their innocence. there have been maybe a dozen cases in the UFC alone since they started working with USADA, of fighters cleared of any wrongdoing after 1-2 years of not being able to provide for their families. its a witch hunt at best. if you ask me, these things should not be public until due process is carried out.

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    the legacy of us postal and all the lies and squirming killed all hope the anyone is innocent when this crap surfaces. tyler hamilton was especially whiney
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    The comments section on Pinkbike leaves me with little to no faith in humanity after this incident. Well, at least the humanity that comments on Pinkbike, that is. My own care-o-meter is buried at the zero mark, not that anyone asked my opinion…

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the legacy of us postal and all the lies and squirming killed all hope the anyone is innocent when this crap surfaces. tyler hamilton was especially whiney
    Not enough money in enduro to justify taking something imo.. the tour you are talking millions and millions at stake, not even remotely in the same category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    Not enough money in enduro to justify taking something imo.. the tour you are talking millions and millions at stake, not even remotely in the same category.
    Then again, only the few top riders have a hope of actually making a real living as an EWS rider. So their hope of a career depends on being one of the best, which is a lot at stake. No excuses for doping, but I can see the pressures that would tempt some to turn to drugs for reaching the next level

    I've heard of doping even down in amateur Cat 1 and 2 road racing, without any real hope of a career or money involved. Relatively easily available drugs and the desire to win, I guess

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    Nobody here thought of the case with Chris Froome? If I am remembering correctly, he was caught with higher than allowed levels of asthma medication in the 2017 vuelta a espana (october? september?) and was still allowed to race the 2018 giro d' italia months later, then suddenly they finally they banned him from the tour de france (~8 months after the supposed doping). The internet came flooding in saying they always knew he was a cheat and tore him apart, then suddenly it was found that the testing methods used to determine that he cheated were ruled invalid and it was likely an error. He went on to race again, but others out there still call him guilty, even though it seems clear that it was a false reading as the test was not designed for endurance athletes and thus didn't account for high concentrations of medication building up in his urine.

    This case is a bit different as it does not appear to be a testing error, but based on other comments, there is a possibility that their supplements were tainted. Maybe their results for that race and some others should be stripped regardless as they had an advantage, but people should wait before determining their career over and labeling them as cheats and suspending/ banning them from the sport. A terrible accident where they did gain an advantage and that should be dealt with accordingly, but i'd hold off before permanently destroying their reputations and careers.

    At this point, even if it was an accident, I am going to guess that their reputations will be permanently damaged now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    Then again, only the few top riders have a hope of actually making a real living as an EWS rider. So their hope of a career depends on being one of the best, which is a lot at stake. No excuses for doping, but I can see the pressures that would tempt some to turn to drugs for reaching the next level

    I've heard of doping even down in amateur Cat 1 and 2 road racing, without any real hope of a career or money involved. Relatively easily available drugs and the desire to win, I guess
    even at the local time trial a bunch of these clowns (doctors and dentists especially for some reason are drug fueled party boys...go figure) some dope in some ways and try for every possible edge. it's all on the downlow but those who know...know
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    Not enough money in enduro to justify taking something imo.. the tour you are talking millions and millions at stake, not even remotely in the same category.
    People do it at amateur levels where there's no money involved. Money is not the only motive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    This is an old article, but a good one on what it's actually like to take PED's.

    https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test
    Just read that article, pretty interesting hearing his experience with it. Also I learned a couple things I didn't know. I didn't realize Amgen was the company that first made EPO, and now of course are the primary sponsor of the biggest cycling race in the US. Also, the first president of WADA is named Dick Pound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    People do it at amateur levels where there's no money involved. Money is not the only motive.
    Winning is the ultimate drug.

    For many, it doesn't matter how to get a fix.

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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaro View Post
    Just read that article, pretty interesting hearing his experience with it. Also I learned a couple things I didn't know. I didn't realize Amgen was the company that first made EPO, and now of course are the primary sponsor of the biggest cycling race in the US. Also, the first president of WADA is named Dick Pound.
    And the VC guy that originally put the Amgen deal together was Thom Wiesel, and one of his associates/brokers was/is Jim Ochowicz

    https://www.velonews.com/2015/10/new...-fixing_388118

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  52. #52
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    So...lots of talk about the drug testing, and who’s a suspect. Lots of people chiming in with feedback and opinions. I gotta ask, and I’m being serious...what does it matter if riders are using PED’s? They are incredible athletes, doing amazing stuff on their bikes. I’m not endorsing PED’s...I’m just curious. My brother was a Pro MX racer w/an AMA Supercross win...he has lots of stories about the PED’s being used, back in the day.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Lots of people chiming in with feedback and opinions. I gotta ask, and I’m being serious...what does it matter if riders are using PED’s? They are incredible athletes, doing amazing stuff on their bikes. I’m not endorsing PED’s...I’m just curious. My brother was a Pro MX racer w/an AMA Supercross win...he has lots of stories about the PED’s being used, back in the day.
    Where do we draw the line?

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    When I'm old I may used PED's. Why not?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    When I'm old I may used PED's. Why not?
    LOL, You won't be the first:

    https://www.velonews.com/2017/11/new...olation_452735

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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    LOL, You won't be the first:

    https://www.velonews.com/2017/11/new...olation_452735

    Like I wrote, a beautiful sport with a lot of ugly behavior in it.
    I'm talking about old age, like 70's. The benefits of PEDs in old age far outweigh the risks.

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    These guys are guilty. They admitted it. They don’t even ask for a retest on the B sample. All those who talk about “benefit of doubt” and “presumption of innocence” and etc. are engaged in denial of reality. Do you want a clean sport or not, dammit!

    They are professional athletes competing at the pinnacle of the discipline. They were caught racing with prohibited PEDs in their system. That is a major rule violation. Every professional athlete knows this. If they can show it was “accidental” it will affect the sanction — not guilt. They are responsible for whatever goes into their bodies under the rules of the sport. Intent and knowledge are not relevant to a violation.

    There’s room for debate about what the rules should be and how they should operate, but not about guilt or innocence here.

    By the way, the post above about Froome is totally garbled on the facts. He challenged the test results and denied that he took a prohibited dose (of a permitted, but regulated, asthma drug), and there was much wrangling over whether his test result could be consistent with a legal dose, with the situation resolved by a rule change and no violation was ever found. He was never banned or suspended. The whole thing was supposed to be kept secret during the pre-violation-finding stage but was leaked. It was a questionable story, to be sure, but far different from Rude and Graves who do not deny that they had the prohibited substances in their systems during a race.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I'm talking about old age, like 70's. The benefits of PEDs in old age far outweigh the risks.
    It won’t make much difference when you’re 70, and riding an e-bike

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    It won’t make much difference when you’re 70, and riding an e-bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    I gotta ask, and I’m being serious...what does it matter if riders are using PED’s?
    It's an interesting question. I sometimes wonder why people get so worked up over it, especially laymen/non-competitors. I'm not sure I buy the "purity of the sport" line either. Once you take an Advil for a headache while you ride, you aren't really "pure" anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    I s'pose not too many asthmatics race enduro.

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    Actually a lot of pro athletes, develop "sports induced asthma". Especially in colder weather, it is a big thing where I grew up in Colorado with fall and winter sports...not putting my .02 in on the doping thing but just saw your post. I think you would be surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Flo View Post
    By the way, the post above about Froome is totally garbled on the facts. He challenged the test results and denied that he took a prohibited dose (of a permitted, but regulated, asthma drug), and there was much wrangling over whether his test result could be consistent with a legal dose, with the situation resolved by a rule change and no violation was ever found. He was never banned or suspended. The whole thing was supposed to be kept secret during the pre-violation-finding stage but was leaked. It was a questionable story, to be sure, but far different from Rude and Graves who do not deny that they had the prohibited substances in their systems during a race.

    1. He was initially being banned before being let in. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a8425301.html

    https://www.sbnation.com/2018/7/1/17...ban-suspension

    2. To the best of my knowledge, the debate was that he took a legal dose of asthma medication but the test was designed for swimmers and not cyclists who are doing long endurance events. To my knowledge, I thought he was presumed to have taken a legal dose but because of dehydration, etc. the test results made it seem like he was riding with an illegal amount.

    3. Yes this case is different from the enduro riders, but the point is don't jump to conclusions. These guys obviously were riding with drug that benefited them so like I said that should be dealt with in an appropriate manner, but its best to let all the facts come in before declaring their careers over and calling them deliberate cheats. Chris Froome's reputation is still tainted by the doping incident even though he was cleared to race, the enduro riders did seemingly gain an actual advantage so even if its determined that it was an accident, their reputations may be even worse off. Penalize them accordingly, but wait until the other facts come in before declaring their careers over.

    I don't really follow enduro but I'm surprised that this was the first time they were tested, if PEDs were banned from enduro but never tested for before, that is pretty shocking. Obviously, future events should test all riders for PEDs, and rules should become more serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agreenbike View Post
    As the article says, the Tour organizers (ASO) tried to ban Froome while he was under suspicion (as a way of trying to force a pre-TdF conclusion of the matter to avoid having a “tainted Tour”) but they did not succeed (and it was rather obvious they could not succeed under the rules; this was a stunt on the ASO’s part). Thus, as I said, he was never banned or suspended. But no need to debate semantics.

    Lots of pro riders have breathing issues — more advanced and extreme variations on the runny nose that many amateurs experience. It’s very common and perfectly legitimate to seek medicine to help. The rules of sport have unfortunately had to become complicated in order to draw a legal line between what’s fair and what’s not. What is natural? Sleeping in a low-oxygen tent to stimulate extra red blood cell production in the body = legal. Taking your own red blood cells out and putting them back in later = doping.

    I don’t have much knowledge about Enduro. But in pro XC racing (as in any pro road race with climbing), any foreign substance that gives a pro athlete added aerobic capacity needs to be carefully regulated to keep the sport fair and avoid what would otherwise be a race to the bottom where all the winners dope.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Flo View Post
    But in pro XC racing (as in any pro road race with climbing), any foreign substance that gives a pro athlete added aerobic capacity needs to be carefully regulated to keep the sport fair and avoid what would otherwise be a race to the bottom where all the winners dope.
    Basically, any exogenous substance that would provide a competitive advantage is not allowed - as it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    It's an interesting question. I sometimes wonder why people get so worked up over it, especially laymen/non-competitors. I'm not sure I buy the "purity of the sport" line either. Once you take an Advil for a headache while you ride, you aren't really "pure" anymore.
    Advil does not provide a competitive advantage, you're still pure, feel free to wear white
    ; )
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Flo View Post
    As the article says, the Tour organizers (ASO) tried to ban Froome while he was under suspicion (as a way of trying to force a pre-TdF conclusion of the matter to avoid having a “tainted Tour”) but they did not succeed (and it was rather obvious they could not succeed under the rules; this was a stunt on the ASO’s part). Thus, as I said, he was never banned or suspended. But no need to debate semantics.

    Lots of pro riders have breathing issues — more advanced and extreme variations on the runny nose that many amateurs experience. It’s very common and perfectly legitimate to seek medicine to help. The rules of sport have unfortunately had to become complicated in order to draw a legal line between what’s fair and what’s not. What is natural? Sleeping in a low-oxygen tent to stimulate extra red blood cell production in the body = legal. Taking your own red blood cells out and putting them back in later = doping.

    I don’t have much knowledge about Enduro. But in pro XC racing (as in any pro road race with climbing), any foreign substance that gives a pro athlete added aerobic capacity needs to be carefully regulated to keep the sport fair and avoid what would otherwise be a race to the bottom where all the winners dope.
    Agreed.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Advil does not provide a competitive advantage, you're still pure, feel free to wear white
    ; )
    Perhaps, although I know marathon runners and triathletes who take ibuprofen before an event because it raises one's heart rate, which they think gives a performance advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    Not enough money in enduro to justify taking something imo.. the tour you are talking millions and millions at stake, not even remotely in the same category.
    There are a couple dozen amateurs (not pros) who get busted every year in the US. Dudes racing Masters parking lot crits taking T and EPO. With literally no hope of anything more than local “fame”/notoriety to gain.

    The idea that money is a factor is not based in reality.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    Perhaps, although I know marathon runners and triathletes who take ibuprofen before an event because it raises one's heart rate, which they think gives a performance advantage.
    There is data out there to show the exact opposite is true with with IB, no proven benefit during use and it can actually harm your recovery process afterwards. Only good after MTB lawn darting events.......

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    All my trust for pro athletes has been long since spent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    Perhaps, although I know marathon runners and triathletes who take ibuprofen before an event because it raises one's heart rate, which they think gives a performance advantage.
    ibuprofen does have a performance advantage and that is proven in the military in combat training. they do not nickname it vitamin M for nothing. it can allow to push through pain and swelling further than without it. if it did not do anything for performance they would not bother using tons of it in extreme training.

    of course it's risky or course it can cause problems but for that day you are dying and need to perform, chow down....works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ibuprofen does have a performance advantage and that is proven in the military in combat training. they do not nickname it vitamin M for nothing. it can allow to push through pain and swelling further than without it. if it did not do anything for performance they would not bother using tons of it in extreme training.

    of course it's risky or course it can cause problems but for that day you are dying and need to perform, chow down....works.
    Ibuprofen can screw up your liver, particularly if you have had some sort of liver disease in the past or a heavy drinker.

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