Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    From the map and photos (excellent work everyone) the flow trail looks like it will be good in both directions.

    What's the verdict? It would be nice to actually have a decent graded trail for getting back up to ridge. Tractor trail is a grunt of the climb and sulfer is well... Not inspiring to say the least.

  2. #2
    pvd
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    Doh.

  3. #3
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    This really should be a one way...down. I think climbing this will destroy someone's 'flow' and be hazardous. But you are correct...climbing up to Ridge is not terribly fun based on current options.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCTreeHugger View Post
    From the map and photos (excellent work everyone) the flow trail looks like it will be good in both directions.

    What's the verdict? It would be nice to actually have a decent graded trail for getting back up to ridge. Tractor trail is a grunt of the climb and sulfer is well... Not inspiring to say the least.
    Technically, this is a bi-directional multi-use trail because CALFIRE doesn't have a designation for single-use directional trails. Until they do we can't make any claims that this is a one way bike only trail.

    Practically speaking, folks will be encouraged by peer pressure to ride in one direction. This trail is steeper than the Emma McCrary trail and when it opens there will probably be a lot of folks riding it downhill. It will be discouraging to ride up it.

    Depending on the last time you rode Tractor, it has been transformed into a dirt road since the timber harvest. It's no longer a grunt of a climb as it once was.

  5. #5
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    I agree with squashyo and mrtoadsc.
    Downhill is best. I wouldn't try to climb it for at least a year on a weekend. It's going to be a popular DH and climbing won't be in your best interest.

  6. #6
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    Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    Decent grade trail for climbing? I have some planned out on a map I've made that are in places that make a bit more sense. Let's get this one done and keep the trail building momentum going, I would love some climbing trails at demo. Climbing tractor is good for your heart and gets you back up to the top for run 2 much faster.

    The trail is optimized for downhill travel because that is what people want from this project. Fun was a bigger design consideration than line of sight for this reason. Average grade is lower (5-7%) but there are lots of steep grunts and with all the undulation I bet you would do 25%- 35% more climbing than just going up tractor.

    I am hoping we can get down hill traffic only recommended signage (for Braille and Sawpit as well for the Demo first timers).


    Drew

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  7. #7
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    25-35% more climbing is the point. Just because Tractor gets it done quicker doesn't mean it is better.
    "It's just that nobody likes Cornfish." francois

  8. #8
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    Another thing: The flow trail hits Tractor at 4 points--all opportunities to climb back up for another loop or to drop Braille or Sawpit.

    Save the drama(rancho) for your mama and make it downhill only!

    VV Yep, I tried--unsuccessfully--to dissuade a first-timer from climbing Braille last year. He lasted about 5 minutes!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 02-24-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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  9. #9
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew p View Post
    I am hoping we can get down hill traffic only recommended signage (for Braille and Sawpit as well for the Demo first timers).
    People climb Braille?

  10. #10
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    I really hope no one wants to climb this trail..Demo is one of the few places I ride where I don't have to worry about head ons. If you want to climb back to the ridge use the 2 gigantic fire roads Tractor or Sulfur
    We will never know our full potential unless we push ourselves to find it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCTreeHugger View Post
    From the map and photos (excellent work everyone) the flow trail looks like it will be good in both directions.

    What's the verdict? It would be nice to actually have a decent graded trail for getting back up to ridge. Tractor trail is a grunt of the climb and sulfer is well... Not inspiring to say the least.
    I'd prefer down only. IIRC, the old tractor will still be left intact.

    I know this is kind of "bad form", but I ride the DH portions of Demo not thinking there is even going to be anyone climbing up.

    Since they did the mod on SuFfer" Springs, it's not that bad anymore to climb. I climbed both tractor and "suffer" springs yesterday and wish I had road up to suffer springs instead of climbing tractor.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    Another thing: The flow trail hits Tractor at 4 points--all opportunities to climb back up for another loop or to drop Braille or Sawpit.

    Save the drama for your mama and make it downhill only!

    VV Yep, I tried--unsuccessfully--to dissuade a first-timer from climbing Braille last year. He lasted about 5 minutes!

    My buddy did the same thing back in 2007 or so. He heard about Demo and went to ride it on his own. He took Hihm down to Braille and thought "I'll see where that goes" He said he got half way before he thought Suffer Springs would be a better climb. He did it on a weekday. So, it was not as bad
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    People climb Braille?
    Yeah, if they don't know where to go and just look at a map

    Hey, I did the same thing with Mailboxes. I had heard, but had no clue where it was. We were just putting around Wilder and came across the bottom of the trail. We thought "Wow, if we can figure out where that starts, we could have a great trail"
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  14. #14
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    I was assuming that this flow trail was designed in part as an awesome way to get back up to Ridge after a Sawpit or Braille descent without having to huff up Hihn's to Sulfur to Ridge.......... Clearly that debate will be waged, won and lost all before the trail is completed.
    Keep pedaling no matter what

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHH View Post
    I was assuming that this flow trail was designed in part as an awesome way to get back up to Ridge after a Sawpit or Braille descent without having to huff up Hihn's to Sulfur to Ridge.......... Clearly that debate will be waged, won and lost all before the trail is completed.
    Wouldn't be much of a flow trail if you had to worry about uphill traffic at every corner. Anyhow, I am working on getting a TRAM built but so far I am only at the Dream Phase.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHH View Post
    I was assuming that this flow trail was designed in part as an awesome way to get back up to Ridge after a Sawpit or Braille descent without having to huff up Hihn's to Sulfur to Ridge.......... Clearly that debate will be waged, won and lost all before the trail is completed.
    There are two people in the world that have thought this way.
    You and the OP

    Maybe it's me, but I found going up tractor to ridge to braille one hell of a lot of work. You put the need to watch for DH in there and it seemed not worth it.

    Sure it's longer to ride sulfur springs, but wearing yourself out to get to braille on ridge kind of takes the "fun" out of it. The run from the helipad to the start of braille is fast and fun. You can keep your momentum and just take braille at full throttle. (you recovered at the helipad)
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker View Post
    Yea, totally. We finally get to make a new sweet legit trail in Demo and some people want to make it a climb? There are already 3 ways back up to the top that no one really rides down. Those would be the best way up...or Josh's Tram.
    The Tram might have some environmental issues. So, I propose we find some deer and put harnesses on them and have them tow us up Sulfur. We use natural resources and we get back to our riding
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  18. #18
    JHH
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    Don't kid yourselfs, many a frother is eyeing that flow trail thinking the same thing I am.
    Down ridge, down Sawpit, Up new flow, down new flow, up new flow, down Braille, up hihns, BEER ME!
    Keep pedaling no matter what

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  20. #20
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    Damn, you guys are a sensitive bunch. I was asking if it is possible to climb up the trail. The short answer is technically yes it is but it is not advised and you will likely get the stink eye. I am stoked about the new trail and will have fun ripping down it.

    In my opinion, for demo to be more of a destination you can't spend 2ish hours of a 3 hour ride on fire road.

    Drew - I cant wait to see your plans for the next trail.

  21. #21
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    Re: Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    Quote Originally Posted by SCTreeHugger View Post
    Damn, you guys are a sensitive bunch. I was asking if it is possible to climb up the trail. The short answer is technically yes it is but it is not advised and you will likely get the stink eye. I am stoked about the new trail and will have fun ripping down it.

    In my opinion, for demo to be more of a destination you can't spend 2ish hours of a 3 hour ride on fire road.

    Drew - I cant wait to see your plans for the next trail.
    How about having fun helping us build? Frickin' side line coaches.

    (u know I am just playin' witchya, yo. Though we could use some more differs out there)

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  22. #22
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    Diggers, that is. Word

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    How about having fun helping us build? Frickin' side line coaches.

    (u know I am just playin' witchya, yo. Though we could use some more differs out there)

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    Currently I have more money than time. Can't I just keep throwing donations to the cause?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    Currently I have more money than time. Can't I just keep throwing donations to the cause?
    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    How about having fun helping us build? Frickin' side line coaches.

    (u know I am just playin' witchya, yo. Though we could use some more differs out there)

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    I walked part of the trail yesterday (J) and (I) and everything looks great.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    Currently I have more money than time. Can't I just keep throwing donations to the cause?
    YES please throwing money is the best thing you can do really. I'm not involved with this project but I am a huge fan boy.

    Throwing money around really really really helped with the flow trail at Endor. One gent in particular who I respect and admire a great deal would put a 100 dollar bill in my hand every time he rode by on his bike and I was working. This happened at least 3 times and he apparently did the same to other trail leaders as well.

    Really when someone does something like this it is super meaningful. We are going to work anyway but showing support in a real form like bringing food or money is almost better than showing up to do work in a way. It made me want to work even harder. As per instructions I would either hand the C note up the food chain or buy the volunteers beer with it. That would create even more work and a really fun atmosphere.

    Not to mention this kind of funding represents how much people like a volunteer project. Just as much as a negative comment causes butt hurt a positive contribution is a really big deal. Someone agrees with your vision and they give you money. There isn't much to compare it to. Someone shouting thank you over their shoulder as they stuff their bike into a berm that took two weeks to build is nice but it seems pretty meaningless after a while. Money is a real contribution and everyone who is involved with this Demo Flow project is spending time away from work, packing in expensive snacks to free up time, driving off road out of the way all that stuff adds up to some serious spending.

    So ya bro. Keep kicking down. Bring some snacks up to the crew. Drop a 20 on some guy who looks like he is working hard. That stuff makes a huge difference. It is better than showing up to work and not being into hard work.

    I only wish I lived closer to help out myself.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew p View Post
    ... The trail is optimized for downhill travel because that is what people want from this project. Fun was a bigger design consideration than line of sight for this reason.
    wise man says listen to wise man.

    here's just one example. so here you are climbing up segment 5 and are almost back to the next intersection with tractor. you've already managed to survive going backwards over the jump.. phew. you made it around the tight blind bend on the steepest side slope section. ok. now, you come to this tree (i'm looking downhill here so you would be coming up the trail toward me)



    looks cools right? let's turn around and have a look up the trail.





    what's around that bend? even after cutting the tree a second time you're hugging the inside of the slope and you have to crane your neck around to see if someone is coming down.

    below you can see what it looks like when entering this turn.



    hmm, that's not compelling enough. let's stand closer to the center where you would have probably committed to this turn by now (it's steep!) we'll use a more or less vertical Robert for scale and grade estimation



    it's not going to be fun going up because you won't be able to see around everything. you're probably going to feel like you're not being safe in some parts. if you really want to see some climbing single track at demo (i know i do!) come out and lend a hand or write a check. who know's, maybe when this is done the trail fairies can fly around to another location and sprinkle their magic uphill trail dust there instead?



    besides... complaining about suphpher springs is so not enduro.

  27. #27
    I'm really diggin it!
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    As for one way...

    We did the same one way system at Endor. Purely as conflict mitigation. Dramarancho is dramarancho but only if you let it be. There are no good sight lines for massive berms and fun DH, not really. Flow means a constant relative speed as well at least for me so slowing for an uphill rider is a bummer.

    WOLF trail is fun. Get it? Flow backwards the wolf trail. Spindeltron came up with that one. I get to do it sometimes when the trail is closed to grab a tool or my lunch. It is kinda fun but not really part of the design, as Drew P mentioned. I'd never try it when the trail was open. God that would be awful.

    Now if only I could get people to stop talking on cell phones right on the apex of turns... that would be nice. LOL

  28. #28
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    So at first I thought this thread was a joke, and here is why.


    This Saturday while walking up the Demo Flow Trail with bike in hand I got a few self-preservation fear butterflies going up the berms. This was while everyone was finishing up working and the chance of someone riding down was practically zero.

    To modbog's point the berms are steep and about the only thing you can tell on the way up is that its steep and you can't see anything other than the wall of dirt in front of you. So once the trail is open, I'm going to assume anyone that attempts to ride up the thing is trying to see if evolution still works and/or has not bothered to consider the wellbeing of the majority of trail users who will be going downhill.

    There is NO safe way to ride up this trail other than up being the only direction, or the trail being closed.


    PS I love to climb technical trails.
    Last edited by velojonthan; 02-24-2014 at 07:01 PM. Reason: font

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    it's not going to be fun going up because you won't be able to see around everything.
    What if somebody fell down there. Or there is a tree branch? How is it any different than a rider slowly slogging uphill, except that rider is much easier to see? Are you really suggesting that people will routinely ride master faster than their sight line there? Does not seem like a very good idea. I think pretty much every where in Demo you can see pretty well, at least if there is a human sized obstacle.. I am not suggesting that riding up this trail will be a good idea...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCTreeHugger View Post
    From the map and photos (excellent work everyone) the flow trail looks like it will be good in both directions.

    What's the verdict? It would be nice to actually have a decent graded trail for getting back up to ridge. Tractor trail is a grunt of the climb and sulfer is well... Not inspiring to say the least.
    Did Cornfish put you up to this? Guaranteed page views I say.

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    I'm going to continue to assume this is all a joke but...

    A fallen rider is a medical emergency and should be avoidable in most circumstances as they will not be moving and will probably fall down past the steepest part of the berm.

    If a tree falls across the trail it will be easy to see and avoid, go over, or perhaps you are just unlucky and mother nature gets you.

    A person riding up the hill will be moving at a higher rate of speed and spending less time on the flat areas where you can be seen and more time at a slower rate of speed on the steepest areas of the trail (Berms) at the same time riders going down are hitting top speed and are just holding on to keep a line. If the rider going up is in the wrong line itís going to be lights out for at least one person. Can't imagine how bummed my Wife & Family would be if I high sided a berm to my death while avoiding an uphill rider who didnít feel like grunting out sulfur springs.

    The key differentiator between a fallen rider, a fallen tree, and a person riding uphill on a trail that is designed to go downhill is that the person riding uphill made a decision to be in that situation.

    Consider other people.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    ... I am not suggesting that riding up this trail will be a good idea ...
    it sounds like we're on the same page

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    I did Sulfur to Corral after trail work on Saturday. Going up that bit of Ridge was a b!tch and also stupid (for not a lot of payoff on Corral). Sulfur reroute is much better. I kept waiting to turn the corner and find "the wall" that I remembered and was pleasantly surprised at the hilopad. Then Ridge uphill for a bit. Not pleasant.

    Use Sulfur uphill. Use Tractor-now-fireroad uphill. Do not kill the flow.

    If we're making demands on the next 4mi of demo trail to build I want singletrack below Hihn's Mill Fireroad. Now *that* should be uphill flowy or multi-directional (more like Emma McCrary sightlines when possible).
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    Currently I have more money than time. Can't I just keep throwing donations to the cause?
    Thanks ziscwg.

    Part of the reason for our high productivity is because we have 3 employees and purchased machinery to put this trail in the ground. Employees and machines cost money and donations are appreciated. We have raised enough funds to keep us going for a few months and are in the process of raising more funds through the SCMBF, raffles and sponsorships.

    For those who have more money than time, if you can throw down here Donate | Mountain Bikers of Santa Cruz (MBoSC) we would very much appreciate it.

  35. #35
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    Re: Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Did Cornfish put you up to this? Guaranteed page views I say.

    fc
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  36. #36
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    Multi-use trail...

    Warning; buzzkill ahead...

    All this concern about bikes possibly going up the new trail is laughable in a sad sort of way. Demo Flow (which isn't the final name I've heard) is a multi-use trail which means hikers, equestrians, mushroom hunters, dog walkers and etc. may be using it in either direction. Don't forget the CalFire quad might be out on a practice run also.

    If they had asked for a bikes-only trail it may have never gotten approval.

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  37. #37
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    Point taken. Nice analysis Modbog.
    Keep pedaling no matter what

  38. #38
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    Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Anyhow, I am working on getting a TRAM built but so far I am only at the Dream Phase.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    The Tram might have some environmental issues. So, I propose we find some deer and put harnesses on them and have them tow us up Sulfur. We use natural resources and we get back to our riding
    I'm sure I heard talk of unicorns & rainbows at one point, I'm pretty sure this was in relation to an up-lift so I think it might be problem solved...
    Not really doing much Ridin' or Diggin' :skep:

  39. #39
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    ok, the jig is up. truth is, we came upon some new information during construction. the purposed route goes through an all-male Sasquatch habitat. this was originally going to be a predominately uphill flow trail but after many meetings with the Sasquatchologists it was determined that the best course of action was to make the trail downhill oriented. apparently Sasquatch are violently attracted to mountain bikers but only when traveling uphill. we've already had a few "incidents" (sorry, squashyo) so.. to help mitigate the issue, signage has been installed on the uphill side of various trees along the route.



    have fun. be safe.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Warning; buzzkill ahead...

    All this concern about bikes possibly going up the new trail is laughable in a sad sort of way. Demo Flow (which isn't the final name I've heard) is a multi-use trail which means hikers, equestrians, mushroom hunters, dog walkers and etc. may be using it in either direction. Don't forget the CalFire quad might be out on a practice run also.
    Just like all the shroomers, horsies, and hikers that are going up Braille, Corral, and Sawpit now?!

    Even on Emma McCrary, other user groups are figuring out that it's not all that it's not all that fun to compete with us (especially the 1000 riders that were on it yesterday!). Anybody trying to go up the FlowMo*** trail will experience a swift reality check...

    (I naively thought that we'd rise above the Tamo drama level, lol)

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  41. #41
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    There is talk of making this an Enduro only trail...just heads up.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    There is talk of making this an Enduro only trail...just heads up.
    That would be pretty cool. Squashyo and I will check for illegal skinsuits and high rigid posts at the edtrance.

    And I'll have color cards of approved Pantone 801+ colors.

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCTreeHugger View Post
    Lol. Enjoy the extra clicks


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    Your commission check is in the mail.

    For your next trick, do the "I was going up the Flow Trail and 58 descenders failed to yield to me" post.

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  44. #44
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    OH! - I just thought of the perfect name for the trail!

    Multi-use Uphill Downhill Bidirectional Endurflo Trail

    or as the locals call it MUDBET

    Nailed it! That will definitely stick.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Your commission check is in the mail.

    For your next trick, do the "I was going up the Flow Trail and 58 descenders failed to yield to me" post.

    fc
    hmmm.. maybe the next call for help thread should be disguised as an equestrian hate thread.

    or maybe "what sized mt lion knife should i run now?"
    "skid kiddies invade kennedy!!"
    "poll: do you like specialized?"
    "OMG annadel is closing.. for good?"
    "look at all this expensive beer i got"
    "this just in: 28.25 is THE new wheel size?!"
    "midpenn did/didn't do something.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    hmmm.. maybe the next call for help thread should be disguised as an equestrian hate thread.

    or maybe "what sized mt lion knife should i run now?"
    "skid kiddies invade kennedy!!"
    "poll: do you like specialized?"
    "OMG annadel is closing.. for good?"
    "look at all this expensive beer i got"
    "this just in: 28.25 is THE new wheel size?!"
    "midpenn did/didn't do something.."
    You ok son. Let's give it a shot:

    "Open Letter to the skid kiddies from Specialized ticketed by Midpen for not yielding to uphill riders while on Strava run on closed trail at night on secret flow trail..."

    Still need to integrate 'beer' and 'cougar' in there.
    IPA will save America

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    dude, you just wasted all those keywords on this thread you could have run for president with that many views.. oh wells.


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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    dude, you just wasted all those keywords on this thread you could have run for president with that many views.. oh wells.

    We're good man. SEO Kung fu.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=spec...yield&safe=off
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    Shouldn't there be a sign at the bottom, "WARNING: If you try to go up this trail, people won't be expecting you and they will crash into you"? Hikers and dogwalkers and cyclists do from time to time go on trails they've never been on before, and if it's going to be the policy of people riding down the trail that they are going to ride as if there is no one coming up the trail, shouldn't other trail users be warned of this fact?

    I've often ascended trails starting mid-afternoon on a weekday, and seen nobody until I've gotten well up the trail and begin to encounter descenders taking after-work rides. I wouldn't like my innocent hypothetical alter ego to get smashed because a trail labelled as a two-way trail is in actual fact a fast downhill trail.

  50. #50
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    Hey all,

    great thread with some great points made.

    Yes, the Flow Trail will be open to hikers, dog walkers, horses, mushroom pickers, faeries, unicorns, and uphill climbing mountain bikers.

    The project description includes words like multi-use, safe sharing, and braid.

    Our design may need some tweaking and a few mods made to various places to help with improving line of sight, room for passing (bulb outs), or even building an adjacent braid so that people riding down hill can actually handle others on the trail who are a) not going as fast as they are, even if both riders are descending, b) riding up the trail c) birdwatching d) looking to hookup with bigfoot, e) trail running f) hiking g) yadda yadda

    Signage definitely will be made and installed directing uphill use to be aware, use alternate braid, etc. Who knows, maybe we will put a sign facing uphill that says "blind turn"?

    Part of the beauty of this project is that we get to try unique things to solve the trail sharing issue. Part of the Demonstration Forest's mission: to study, experiment, demonstrate, etc. Just because nobody has done it like this before doesn't mean we can't do it this way. And if we try something and it doesn't work, we can modify.

    I'm planning to start work on a forest-wide trails plan once the Flow Trail is built. Also, buying some land for a new access road so we can enter the forest from Soquel-San Jose Road instead of Highland Way. But one step at a time. Let's get this trail in and as perfect as it can be in all respects, including accommodating others being on it who are not doing exactly the same thing you are.

    Patty
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    Wow, it would be awesome to have an entrance to Demo on Soquel-San Jose Road. That would give a great mixed-terrain shortcut for those riding from Silicon Valley. Or those riding from Aptos, come to think of it.

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    Why don't we incorporate a few vertical sections into the trail. If loss of altitude is a huge concern then add in a quick switchback climb a little further down. People very rarely climb corral because of the two steep sections. That is all you would need to make it unpalatable to climbers. If this trail is anything like Emma McCray with 5 degree double track then I have to be honest I could see a lot of climbers, with or without peer pressure. And since I mentioned it, a climbing bypass on corral back to the top would be incredible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    You ok son. Let's give it a shot:

    "Open Letter to the skid kiddies from Specialized ticketed by Midpen for not yielding to uphill riding COUGARs while on Strava BEER run on closed trail at night on secret flow trail..."
    fixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dpca10 View Post
    Why don't we incorporate a few vertical sections into the trail. If loss of altitude is a huge concern then add in a quick switchback climb a little further down. People very rarely climb corral because of the two steep sections. That is all you would need to make it unpalatable to climbers. If this trail is anything like Emma McCray with 5 degree double track then I have to be honest I could see a lot of climbers, with or without peer pressure. And since I mentioned it, a climbing bypass on corral back to the top would be incredible.
    Few of those one-way traffic spike strips should do the trick.

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    There are two issues here: discouraging people who know what the trail is like from climbing it, and discouraging people who don't know what the trail is like from climbing it.

    Some hiker or dogwalker, or a cyclist who happens to wander onto the trail, will not be kept from climbing the trail by vertical sections unless they know about the vertical sections.

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    Unless there is a sign at the bottom, "steep, impassible uphill sections". This isn't technically saying no uphill but it gets the message across.

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    1st...in the 20+ years I have been riding Demo, I have never seen a hiker on Tractor.

    2nd...there is nothing stopping people from climbing Coral, Braille, or Sawpit nor are there signs...people simply don't do it because it's not efficient, not terribly fun, nor worth it. The same will likely happen to 'Flow'.

    Let's get the trail built and deal with these topics as they become relevant. Let's put this thread to bed. mmmm-kay? word
    I'm not sure how this works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    2nd...there is nothing stopping people from climbing Coral, Braille, or Sawpit nor are there signs...people simply don't do it because it's not efficient, not terribly fun, nor worth it. The same will likely happen to 'Flow'.
    I suspect that flow will be the easiest trail to climb. Just from the average grade and smooth design. So some additional signage/design consideration may be useful.

    Honestly, the reason I never climbed Braille was not some consideration for people riding downhill, but that climbing it would suck major balls and Tractor is easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    1st...in the 20+ years I have been riding Demo, I have never seen a hiker on Tractor.

    2nd...there is nothing stopping people from climbing Coral, Braille, or Sawpit nor are there signs...people simply don't do it because it's not efficient, not terribly fun, nor worth it. The same will likely happen to 'Flow'.

    Let's get the trail built and deal with these topics as they become relevant. Let's put this thread to bed. mmmm-kay? word
    I want to climb Coral once just to do it. However, I know I will have to watch and get out of the way a lot. I would not even consider doing this on Braille. That will get 2 people hurt.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Let's get the trail built and deal with these topics as they become relevant.
    +1

    There will be lots of opportunity for people to come out on volunteer trail building days, take a look at what's already there and talk to the people who designed & are leading the build of the trail.
    Not really doing much Ridin' or Diggin' :skep:

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    It seems this thread has uncovered a need for a fun, uphill single track trail for riders to use while sessioning all of the great downhill trails that will be available in demo.

    Clearly the flow trail isn't appropriate for climbing and wasn't designed as such, no big deal. Squashyo is bang on; let's finish this trail and then address the other possibilities for the next phase. So far I have only supported the trail with donations but I am looking forward to coming out to help on the upcoming trail work weekend.

    Hopefully when the flow trail is complete there will be an opportunity to build more trail. If there is more trail to be built, I think it would be great to look at demo as a trail network and expand on the uphill routes as well as creating more DH. There are a lot of demo riders looking to crank up Tractor to quickly get to the goods while many others are looking for more of an all day epic single track ride without the disruption of fire road climbs.

    Since we are talking about a "demonstration forest" where the flexibility to try new things is a possibility, how about showcasing some awesome climbing single track as a model to emulate?

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    Demo flow trail - flow in both directions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cornfish View Post
    many others are looking for more of an all day epic single track ride without the disruption of fire road climbs.

    Since we are talking about a "demonstration forest" where the flexibility to try new things is a possibility, how about showcasing some awesome climbing single track as a model to emulate?
    Interesting point.

    I wonder if as many people would be willing to volunteer time to build a climbing trail? (I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious)
    Not really doing much Ridin' or Diggin' :skep:

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    You have at least one. Me.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennW View Post
    Interesting point.

    I wonder if as many people would be willing to volunteer time to build a climbing trail? (I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennW View Post
    Interesting point.

    I wonder if as many people would be willing to volunteer time to build a climbing trail? (I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious)
    Quote Originally Posted by cornfish View Post
    You have at least one. Me.
    that is what Henry Coe is for. There's more single track climbing there than most areas have DH single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    I want to climb Coral once just to do it. However, I know I will have to watch and get out of the way a lot. I would not even consider doing this on Braille. That will get 2 people hurt.
    Climbing Coral sucks, mostly due to the steepness and looseness of the fireroad. There are lots of wide spots and good lines of sight on it. I've done it twice, but stopped due to reasons I've mentioned. It was nice to be able to get that section of ridge between coral and the helipad. That's one of my favorite sections.
    Another time we decided to climb Braille. That one has poor sight lines and is so steep we walked 95% of it. It's just like sessioning jumps on it. You know to expect downhill traffic, and get out of the way once you hear something. By the top, I was more tired than pedaling sulfur, had blisters on my heels, and missed out on a fun part of ridge.
    Bottom line, it's not worth it.

    I would love to see a climbing trail, which could double as a newbie DH. Something to take the wife or kids on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    that is what Henry Coe is for. There's more single track climbing there than most areas have DH single track
    Why is there so much opposition to creating a complete trail network? If there are plenty of DH sections (there are) what is the problem with creating a trail that is good for climbing? And if Coe is your holy grail of single track climbing you need to try another zip code occasionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cornfish View Post
    Why is there so much opposition to creating a complete trail network? If there are plenty of DH sections (there are) what is the problem with creating a trail that is good for climbing? And if Coe is your holy grail of single track climbing you need to try another zip code occasionally.
    I do try many zip codes, actually. Coe is great for ST climbing because it's so damn big, you hardly see another living soul out there. I love Santa Teresa and Stiles Ranch climb. That's kind of touchy trail as there are many that go down that.

    I think there is opposition because we don't want to have to worry about uphill traffic on a downhill section. I certainly agree with you that climbing single track is more fun and challenging than a pesky fireroad. However, I will regularly climb the fireroad to avoid the DH traffic. I don't climb that well. So, with my suffering AND the DH traffic issue would make it "unfun"
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    ok, the jig is up. truth is, we came upon some new information during construction. the purposed route goes through an all-male Sasquatch habitat. this was originally going to be a predominately uphill flow trail but after many meetings with the Sasquatchologists it was determined that the best course of action was to make the trail downhill oriented. apparently Sasquatch are violently attracted to mountain bikers but only when traveling uphill. we've already had a few "incidents" (sorry, squashyo) so.. to help mitigate the issue, signage has been installed on the uphill side of various trees along the route.



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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post

    I would love to see a climbing trail, which could double as a newbie DH. Something to take the wife or kids on.
    The old Tractor was a good noob trail. Nothing rocky or too steep, besides the initial drop in. I liked Tractor just because of the sheer speed I could get on it.

    I certainly don't want any of this discussion to take away from the great work all the volunteers have done for the Flow trail so far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    I do try many zip codes, actually. Coe is great for ST climbing because it's so damn big, you hardly see another living soul out there. I love Santa Teresa and Stiles Ranch climb. That's kind of touchy trail as there are many that go down that.

    I think there is opposition because we don't want to have to worry about uphill traffic on a downhill section. I certainly agree with you that climbing single track is more fun and challenging than a pesky fireroad. However, I will regularly climb the fireroad to avoid the DH traffic. I don't climb that well. So, with my suffering AND the DH traffic issue would make it "unfun"
    I think you missed the part where I agreed that this trail is not suitable to be a climbing trail. I have donated money and am signed up for both days of trail work in mid March. What I brought up was a need for a climbing single track in demo, and the hope that after the flow trail is complete, that option could be discussed. Your response was to suggest I drive to Coe. Am I missing something here?

    Once the flow trail is finished you will have several dh only trails to ride. At that point wouldn't it be appropriate to look into creating a climbing single track from the bottom of Saw Pit back to the parking area and up to the top of Ridge?

    Or maybe people are just completely opposed to any kind of climbing single track in demo? Considering Cal-Fire doesn't even technically allow a DH only trail I have a hard time believing a climbing trail is such a radical idea. Especially in a "demonstration forest".

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    What goes up...

    ...must come down.

    I'm all for one-way trails; DH only and climbing-specific---that makes all the sense in the world.

    In a perfect world that's how it would be; but "Demo" is publicly owned run by a bureaucracy (CDF is one of the better ones in the State IMHO) so we get some compromises.

    Like multi-use trails.

    Let's show CDF we can build The Flow Trail and use it like good citizens. Includes sharing... Then maybe they'd consider an "up" trail. (Oh yes there are plans)

    BTW there are some fans of climbing at demo:


    Some of these folks will no doubt be giving Flow a try uphill; I know I'll give it a shot. (on a weekday!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrtoadsc View Post
    Technically, this is a bi-directional multi-use trail because CALFIRE doesn't have a designation for single-use directional trails. Until they do we can't make any claims that this is a one way bike only trail.

    Practically speaking, folks will be encouraged by peer pressure to ride in one direction. This trail is steeper than the Emma McCrary trail and when it opens there will probably be a lot of folks riding it downhill. It will be discouraging to ride up it.

    Depending on the last time you rode Tractor, it has been transformed into a dirt road since the timber harvest. It's no longer a grunt of a climb as it once was.

    I'm bumping this old thread up as a reminder - prompted by the video FC posted in the other Flow Trail thread titled "...Almost cream a guy riding up..."

    Please re-read for some good discussion of why probably most will ride the trail as DH-only (including me), but some will (and actually have, as evidenced in the video) ride it uphill...

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