definition of race?....- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    definition of race?....

    race
    n.
    1. Sports
    a. A competition of speed, as in running or riding.
    b. races A series of such competitions held at a specified time on a regular course
    so....I have always thought of a race was a group of riders on the same course on the same day attempting to be faster than the other cyclist.

    I like it that i would have to train....pay...and travel to a specific location/time to pit skills against fellow cyclists...for me, it shows commitment and a sense of ceremony.

    now we have Strava....which lets riders time routes....and apparently there are online competitions going people are calling 'races'....

    is this virtual field of competition actually racing?...IMO no. It smells of 'second life', virtual gaming and the growing trend of avoiding personal interaction.

    There is a world of difference lining up and competing on the same route in the exact same conditions than practicing a course by yourself over and over and over....only to say 'gotcha by a second so I win'....

    meh...



    Although i will admit that Strava would make an excellent training/motivation tool....
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  2. #2
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    I agree 100% I got rid of my GPS three years ago.
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  3. #3
    fc
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    These gps time trials are just like timing yourself with a stopwatch. Except you can just stick it in your pocket and never have to hit start and stop.

    Not much more really. Not worth crapping on.

    It's kind of like the the hour record of cycling but on a penny budget.

    fc

  4. #4
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    I ride so I can drink beer. Racing against calorie loss.

    But Strava posts on Facebook pressue/make me feel bad for only riding 1 or 2x a week
    Last edited by Ryan G.; 03-07-2011 at 12:35 PM.

  5. #5
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    "it smells of 'second life', virtual gaming and the growing trend of avoiding personal interaction"

    So what is the MTBR norcal forum then? It is kinda like the pliny thread. I would much rather enjoy a pliny with friends at a bar or house but not always possible. I do think however that if we were to enjoy some beers talking about a days ride over Skype, that would be a bit much.
    Racing is great and I know I enjoy the competition. The stopwatch analogy is a good one too. Maybe the GPS thing is not your cup of tea and that is fine. By all accounts I might be a tool because I like to compare times and have virtual uphill races. At this point in my life, I am ok with that.
    They never made the "Slowster"

  6. #6
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmarshall
    "it smells of 'second life', virtual gaming and the growing trend of avoiding personal interaction"

    So what is the MTBR norcal forum then? It is kinda like the pliny thread. I would much rather enjoy a pliny with friends at a bar or house but not always possible. I do think however that if we were to enjoy some beers talking about a days ride over Skype, that would be a bit much.
    Racing is great and I know I enjoy the competition. The stopwatch analogy is a good one too. Maybe the GPS thing is not your cup of tea and that is fine. By all accounts I might be a tool because I like to compare times and have virtual uphill races. At this point in my life, I am ok with that.
    I think Chum main point that it is not real racing. It seems cool and all to compare times and challenge yourself but turning it in to the new way of racing seems a bit much. It's a way of proving you did what you said but when your racing there it is more than just going fast.

    Plus your not winning any KOM like this I will still ride with you
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    as for the stopwatch times, do you think it would make a sticky if I started posting my Casio splits?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    I think Chum main point that it is not real racing.
    BS!!!

    I'm almost done building my personal podium stand and cardboard cutouts of podium girls... and I will continue to create new segments as long as I need to, just so I can keep winning!!!

    If you stop making fun of me, I'll let you stand on the second step.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by grrrah
    BS!!!

    I'm almost done building my personal podium stand and cardboard cutouts of podium girls... and I will continue to create new segments as long as I need to, just so I can keep winning!!!

    If you stop making fun of me, I'll let you stand on the second step.
    #WINNING. Duh!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    I think Chum main point that it is not real racing. It seems cool and all to compare times and challenge yourself but turning it in to the new way of racing seems a bit much. It's a way of proving you did what you said but when your racing there it is more than just going fast.

    Plus your not winning any KOM like this I will still ride with you
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    as for the stopwatch times, do you think it would make a sticky if I started posting my Casio splits?
    Thanks man! I get his point and agree- it doesn't replace real racing. Besides, the podium girls aren't nearly as cute either!
    They never made the "Slowster"

  10. #10
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    the definition of "friend" and being "liked" has morphed, might as well change the definition of racing. Charlie Sheen has quickly changed the definition of "winning" too!

  11. #11
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    A race is a competition not only amongst other people, but also a competition to yourself. Though I've never done a KOM "race" I can understand the satisfaction of "getting closer" or improving your own time. It's not for everyone but if it's your cup of tea, then who are we to say you can't put a garmin in your pocket and time yourself?

  12. #12
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    I wouldn't call Strava a race or race-substitute. Like anything, it can be used however you want to use it. It's not quite, and never will be quite as accurate as a real race, as conditions change from day to day, satellites drift, etc. I do find it an excellent training/motivation tool, as you say, and that's all I have really used it for. Since so many on this forum are using it and having fun with it, (i.e. are getting carried away with it), I can see why one might get a little annoyed.
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  13. #13
    Totally, and to the max.
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    (Disclaimer: Just having fun here. And yes, if you are on Strava, you are most likely faster than me.)

    In a nutshell, Strava is to racing as Guitar Hero is to playing guitar. It's much easier in a virtual world. If it's a real race, I can brake check you and run you right off the trail. To me, a race is more like a fight. You win by being aggressive and not just fast. But whatever, I totally get it. I'm just not into it. Let's face it. We live in the hub of Technogeekery. There's a lot of gadget-loving folks around here who LOVE DATA. To them, all those little statistics add value to an activity. And any tool that measures performance is a must-have. That's totally cool. I'm just not one of those people and never have been. I'm a pretentious creative type. I live for the experience. When I ride, my goal is to be tired and have fun. Then drink beer. Too many things in life are unnecessarily complicated. For me, riding a bike will never be one of those things. But that's just because....

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  14. #14
    NedwannaB
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    Yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic
    I wouldn't call Strava a race or race-substitute. Like anything, it can be used however you want to use it. It's not quite, and never will be quite as accurate as a real race, as conditions change from day to day, satellites drift, etc. I do find it an excellent training/motivation tool, as you say, and that's all I have really used it for. Since so many on this forum are using it and having fun with it, (i.e. are getting carried away with it), I can see why one might get a little annoyed.
    Until there's virtual elbowing or cutting another contestant off in a corner forcing an otb, there's no comparison to the real McCoy.

    I call CHUMMING! (hey nick)

  15. #15
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    It can't be racing b/c racing involves tactics. Holeshot into the S/T for one, knowing that you're a faster descender and getting around a slower guy heading to the S/T means that anyone stuck behind that guy is going to get gapped and need to punish themselves at some point to catch back on.
    Also, how do you account for changing trail and weather conditions over time? (Heat, wind, mud, moon dust etc can all slow you down) In order to race, you've all got to be on the same hanidcap.
    MTB is much more a time trial style of riding for most people, so it almost works, but Strava or whatever GPS Simulator you're using doesn't take into account some of the things that make racing more than "train hard, go hard".

  16. #16
    NedwannaB
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    Heeeeeee's....

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzaholic
    It can't be racing b/c racing involves tactics. Holeshot into the S/T for one, knowing that you're a faster descender and getting around a slower guy heading to the S/T means that anyone stuck behind that guy is going to get gapped and need to punish themselves at some point to catch back on.
    Also, how do you account for changing trail and weather conditions over time? (Heat, wind, mud, moon dust etc can all slow you down) In order to race, you've all got to be on the same hanidcap.
    MTB is much more a time trial style of riding for most people, so it almost works, but Strava or whatever GPS Simulator you're using doesn't take into account some of the things that make racing more than "train hard, go hard".
    Baaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Whoooohooo! But no more afternoon Latte's for you mister. That's several posts in several threads! You don't want to go out too hard too early and bonk like on Saturday!

    Ok, I'll go away now......

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic
    I wouldn't call Strava a race or race-substitute.... It's not quite, and never will be quite as accurate as a real race, as conditions change from day to day.....
    Agree, it is not a race. A race would require the competitors to be on the same course at the same time in the same conditions. Strava isn't that, but is a competition. We live in an age where technology brings us things unimagined five of ten years ago. It's a pretty cool thing now, but it will be fun to see where it goes as it grows up.
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  18. #18
    I like mtn biking, too
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyJay
    Strava isn't that, but is a competition.
    Yeah, I think it's actually kind of cool that you can compete on the basis of footies of elevation with the KOM competition, rather than time. That you can't do in a traditional race. But I don't think it will ever replace the real race experience, like others mentioned - there is strategy involved in being on the course with other racers. On Strava, you are usually on a multi-use trail sharing with other users! Not quite the same thing, and I hope people remember that when they're out there.
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  19. #19
    jms
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    Glad you're back.

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzaholic
    It can't be racing b/c racing involves tactics. Holeshot into the S/T for one, knowing that you're a faster descender and getting around a slower guy heading to the S/T means that anyone stuck behind that guy is going to get gapped and need to punish themselves at some point to catch back on.
    Also, how do you account for changing trail and weather conditions over time? (Heat, wind, mud, moon dust etc can all slow you down) In order to race, you've all got to be on the same hanidcap.
    MTB is much more a time trial style of riding for most people, so it almost works, but Strava or whatever GPS Simulator you're using doesn't take into account some of the things that make racing more than "train hard, go hard".
    Glad you're back. Good post.
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  20. #20
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    OK, so maybe it is not a "race", more of a "challenge", like getting into the Guinness Book of Records. Some people will do the craziest things to achieve that, I think I'll propose they add my Demo XC loop.
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  21. #21
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    Time Trials are races... Strava races are just time trails...
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  22. #22
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    you can believe what you want, but Strava has put together another way of competing. I mean some guy died trying to get his PR back, that's serious shiznit. There was a climb when I was college, that had a piece of paper at the top. If you were fast enough you could write your name on it.

    Most of the people who saying it isn't racing are talking about it as a pejorative. Why? It does make it more difficult to drive two hours, holeshot the singletrack, promptly blow-up your body and bike, dropout and spend the next 5 hours talking tough about one that got away.

    Strava and all these GPS things can do some cool things. It makes it logistically easier to put together an event similar to Motorcycle enduro. That's an event which I think is closer to how most people ride. On a side note, I think mountain biking as a sport has been moving away from how mountain biking exists as a competition. I don't think that's a good thing.

    You can also have competitions that aren't just about speed. You can be the first person to ride some trail in the middle of nowhere and tell people about it. First climb, fist descent, those count for something.

  23. #23
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    holeshot



    sorry
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault
    I think mountain biking as a sport has been moving away from how mountain biking exists as a competition. I don't think that's a good thing.
    Reality TV is full of competitions about any bleeping thing. Cupcakes to camping. Save me.

    Racing represents a very small aspect of mountain biking. As a racing coach I think racing is a fine disciplin but mountain biking is so much richer than that.

    Racing is showing up and putting your wheel on the line against other racers, looking your competitor in the eye, and laying it down with no hiding, on a closed course. First one to the finish line, elbow to elbow, wins. Absent honor and dignity you won't last long.

    STRAVA is not racing. It is more like virtual pitching pennies on line; where is the honor in that? That said a lot of people seem to have fun with it.

  25. #25
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    This is why I miss MTBR...

    Great thread... funny because as I was reading the posts I was picturing the faces of those I actually know on this thread... It just made me smile..

    CHUM, I'm with you my friend

    grrrah, I'm still laughing as I imagine you standing there on the podium of your cardboard cutout world What does Rachel think? Again, I'm still laughing, you are too funny!

    snowjnky, I just saw your latest post.... classic... he said Holeshot, heh, heh, heh, heh

    Then shredchic makes it all logical

    JMac reminding us that racing is like hockey

    george da trog goes all philosophical

    And thanks to K- max everytime I see a gps thing I'll be thinking of some song on Guitar Hero and jamming on my air guitar

    Glad to see fritzaholic was found, there's a thread about you...

    Thanks for the fun, I'm actually just jealous because a meth head stole my gps and I don't have the funds for a new one so enjoy the virtual world
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheckler
    Great thread... funny because as I was reading the posts I was picturing the faces of those I actually know on this thread... It just made me smile..

    CHUM, I'm with you my friend

    grrrah, I'm still laughing as I imagine you standing there on the podium of your cardboard cutout world What does Rachel think? Again, I'm still laughing, you are too funny!

    snowjnky, I just saw your latest post.... classic... he said Holeshot, heh, heh, heh, heh

    Then shredchic makes it all logical

    JMac reminding us that racing is like hockey

    george da trog goes all philosophical

    And thanks to K- max everytime I see a gps thing I'll be thinking of some song on Guitar Hero and jamming on my air guitar

    Glad to see fritzaholic was found, there's a thread about you...

    Thanks for the fun, I'm actually just jealous because a meth head stole my gps and I don't have the funds for a new one so enjoy the virtual world
    LOL! Well said.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    It's a way of proving you did what you said
    Actually, those files are trivial to edit before uploading to strava. Besides, who's to say someone didn't use use an e-bike when they 'beat' everybody's time?

    The internet will never be smarter or better than the sum of it's parts. That's about the biggest criticism when you consider that it's formed completely through perspectivism. It's a place to lose objectivity, not gain it. Nor can anyone derive power from it, except from connections that are intrinsically tangential to it. Further still, social networking online is the metaphysical equivalent of Bruce Lee's 1" punch into vapor; the acknowledgment of some desired trait without action or reward.

    People are going to abuse the novelty of online communications until there's a backlash, and it's coming. In the meantime, have a cookie.


  28. #28
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    From what I'm reading here, Downhill and Super-D aren't seen as real racing...

  29. #29
    Weird huh?
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    Great thread...but,

    I still wonder why someone would put a GPS on a bike.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrash
    From what I'm reading here, Downhill and Super-D aren't seen as real racing...
    IMO DH and Super D are racing, per my definition above. Same day, same trail conditions. (Yes they deteriorate over the course of race day, but that's why you have to qualify, to get the course at a prime time)
    I think Strava has it's place, and any way to get folks out there "Competing" against their PR's, or their buddy's is great.
    Maybe someday they'll come out and toe the line at a local race, and see what that's like as well. More people on bikes, training and riding hard can't be a bad thing.

    So, I have another question for ya'll in reagrds to this. A few years ago, Bikemonkey put up a "Silent Q" course in Annadel. You ride the route, you email your time. Ride it any time, weekeday, weekend, night/ day.. whatevs. Run what you brung. Obviously, somebody took it too seriously and ran a few hikers off the trail, saying they were "Doing the bikemonkey race"
    So, That ended the Q series more or less.

    What are the chances that Strava is doing ther same thing? Asking people to push themselves, to geth their ompetitive juices flowing (Which is great and I wholy endorse!) but do it in the wrong time and place, namely not on a closed course where they can do it dafely without urting themselves, others, or the reputatins of all MTBr's.

    Just my thoughts, hope it doesn't come across too soapboxy, not my intent to rag on Strava or it's followers/ users.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lassiar
    Actually, those files are trivial to edit before uploading to strava.
    Trivial? Care to elaborate? I had a hell of a time with a corrupted file that even Strava, with all of their experts, couldn't recover completely. Had to settle for a loss on that one. To modify one, doubtful I think for most of us.
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  32. #32
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    Not every place you like to ride has a race so strava is good just to see how you stack up on your trails you ride. Nothing wrong with that.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by grrrah
    BS!!!

    I'm almost done building my personal podium stand and cardboard cutouts of podium girls... and I will continue to create new segments as long as I need to, just so I can keep winning!!!

    If you stop making fun of me, I'll let you stand on the second step.

  34. #34
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    Strava is what you make it. If you want to go out and cut lanes to beat a road downhill then that's your choice. We all make em, smart or dumb, we live and die by em.

    To me this strava thing has been a good tool to gauge my recovery from a broken leg I had back in November. I've been watching my times against other people I used to be as fast as before the injury get closer and closer so I know whether or not my training has been effective. It's almost like a science experiment. I don't take any of the KOMs seriously enough to put my life at risk, but it does make me push a little harder or add a little more to each ride. Can't find harm in that. I say if you don't like it just ignore...

    I also say that anybody who thinks they are KOM because strava says they are is fooling themselves. There are far to many good riders not posting times to call yourself KOM. Also, to be KOM of a trail like Braille is silly to me. That trail if far to fun to ride slower and hit all the features, to go as fast as possible on. "Racing" on it is like using a beer bong to drink Pliny

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeng
    "Racing" on it is like using a beer bong to drink Pliny
    Quote of the day!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeng
    "Racing" on it is like using a beer bong to drink Pliny


    What he said.
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  37. #37
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    I agree that it is not a race in the traditional sense. The correct word is competition. Everyone who rides a segment on Strava has the same advantages and disadvantages. Trail/weather conditions change over time, but you can shoot for new PRs and KOMs whenever you want. In the long run, changing conditions are not a major factor. I originally bought a GPS because I was attracted by the data it provides, and the simplicity over a regular bike computer. Strava takes all of that data and makes it more useful.

    As others have stated, Strava is also very motivating for training purposes. When I upload gps data after a hard effort, I want to see that my hard work payed off. Their database keeps a much better record than I would and without it I probably wouldn't put in the effort to keep a detailed record of my PRs.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyJay
    Trivial? Care to elaborate? I had a hell of a time with a corrupted file that even Strava, with all of their experts, couldn't recover completely. Had to settle for a loss on that one. To modify one, doubtful I think for most of us.
    Many of the file formats are plain text and can be edited directly, though it would be a pain to do it for an entire activity. FIT files are binary and are hard to edit manually. However, for someone who is prepared to write some code it is pretty straightforward to read in the file, "fix" the data, and write it out again. Once someone has written this program, it is trivial for anyone to use it. I could write a program this morning that would allow you to give a speed-up factor (eg. 20% faster) or a segment target time and it would take any FIT file and generate a new FIT file sped up by that amount. You don't even have to ride the route, you can just borrow someone else's file.

    It is very hard, if not impossible, for Strava to defend against this. If they add smarts to detect the files, some other smarts get added when generating them (eg. subtle randomization) to out-smart their smarts. The solution would be for Garmin to use a standard cryptography algorithm to sign their FIT files. This would require Garmin to extend the FIT file format and add the code to the firmware. They would probably not want to do this - the cryptography is computationally intensive and their CPUs are puny and they'd have to go to some lengths to hide their private key. They probably wouldn't see the value either, but that's what it would take to avoid fake FIT files.

    At the moment it all rests on the honors system.

    As for corrupted files, if it is truly corrupted then there's no way to get the data back. Usually it is a truncated file or a small amount of damage in the middle of the file, and some recovery is possible for those. I don't think Garmin have made any effort to fix these automatically, and Strava rely on Garmin for the FIT parsing. I could write some code to do better than Garmin has in this area but I don't have much reason to. Also, Garmin (or rather Dynastream) completely missed the opportunity to do some real corruption resilience in the FIT file format, and Garmin don't really make much effort in their device architecture either. After all, this is just cheap consumer electronics and if 99% of the people are happy 99% of the time then that's just fine with them ...

  39. #39
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    I started racing 30 years ago, and the thing I loved about it was that whether it was a mass-start RR with 100 riders or an ITT with 6 riders, there was always a social dimension and sense of community. When you look at new events, the ones that grow rapidly in popularity are the ones that capture this spirit.
    Things like Strava are good training tools and can contribute to the sense of community and connectedness (like our own Waterdog Half-Mountain Challenge ), they only become anti-social and bad for the sport when they promote a get-out-of-my-way, everyone for themselves mentality that breaks down the bonds of the community. It's a fine line, and I think the fact that it has been such a hot topic shows that most of us are wary of crossing that line precisely because we value our community so much.
    "You are by far the most interesting single-serving friend I have ever met."

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukbloke
    At the moment it all rests on the honors system.
    There needs to be a reason for people to cheat the system. Right now all you get for a KOM is to see your name at the top of a list. Only the laziest narcissist would resort to cheating for that.

    You should write the program, call it EPO and charge people for each file they alter.

  41. #41
    fc
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    There's a lot of mental masturbation here.

    I virtual race my virtual friends and enjoy my virtual Pliny. Kapeesh?

    fc

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by urban turban
    There needs to be a reason for people to cheat the system. Right now all you get for a KOM is to see your name at the top of a list. Only the laziest narcissist would resort to cheating for that.

    You should write the program, call it EPO and charge people for each file they alter.
    And I'm sure there are lazy narcissists around! Other motives would be malice, meddling, hacking or infamy. Anyway I was (mostly) commenting on whether it was technically possible to cheat, and it undoubtedly is. I could also imagine organizations thinking about using things like Garmins instead of chips/sensors for event timing (eg. Gran Fondos or brevets). They'd have to take some care because of the possibility to fake the data. I'm not going to write the program, but sooner or later somebody will.

    Getting back on topic, I think of Strava as a motivation tool for training and endurance riding. Can everyone just agree not to use the words "race" and "racing" for Strava? For Strava proponents calling it a race is just going to end up causing trouble anyway.

  43. #43
    rj2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeng
    ...Racing" on it is like using a beer bong to drink Pliny
    Pliny the Elder #3 now on Strava, I mean Beer Advocate KOM. Move along.
    We take care of your technology needs so you can focus on what's important.

  44. #44
    rj2
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    The Man's going to start monitoring our "races," and give us virtual tickets. They might even use this data to deny access.
    We take care of your technology needs so you can focus on what's important.

  45. #45
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    mental masturbation

    two in one thread FTW
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by urban turban
    There needs to be a reason for people to cheat the system. Right now all you get for a KOM is to see your name at the top of a list. Only the laziest narcissist would resort to cheating for that.

    You should write the program, call it EPO and charge people for each file they alter.
    Exactly? Why would you want to cheat? That is a rhetorical question because some people will. I was reading UKBlokes response and I almost hanged myself in the bathroom stall a few minutes ago. I am the first to tell you that I am a simpleton. I am not good at math and don't know much about computers and files and all that fun stuff. So pardon me for my easy solution to cheating on Strava. If I wanted to cheat and fool all of you easily, I would just give my GPS and let some super fast guy ride with it. Then I would upload and tell all of you how fast I am. Then when we do a group ride, I will be suffering from some ailment and that is why I can't hammer it. By the way, Waitweenie I need my GPS back. Thanks
    They never made the "Slowster"

  47. #47
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by urban turban
    There needs to be a reason for people to cheat the system. Right now all you get for a KOM is to see your name at the top of a list. Only the laziest narcissist would resort to cheating for that.

    You should write the program, call it EPO and charge people for each file they alter.
    Based on the amount of cheating going with online gaming, it should not be very long before people start cheating their way up the virtual KOM title.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg
    Based on the amount of cheating going with online gaming, it should not be very long before people start cheating their way up the virtual KOM title.

    aka - virtual sandbagging.

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukbloke
    .... Anyway I was (mostly) commenting on whether it was technically possible to cheat, and it undoubtedly is....
    A'ight. I guess I left myself wide open for that. Of course it will always be possible to cheat at just about anything, if you are so inclined. Just seems easier to ride the bike.
    If you see someone without a smile, give them yours

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyJay
    Just seems easier to ride the bike.
    It would take me about 20-25 hours of riding every week to top the men's KOM monthly competition on Strava. I'd have to do that for most of 2011 to win the annual competition. While I'd be very happy to be doing that much riding, it would also probably cost me either my marriage or my job. Or I could write a "FIT file faker" in an afternoon and spend a minute a day generating and uploading the fake files.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukbloke
    It would take me about 20-25 hours of riding every week to top the men's KOM monthly competition on Strava. I'd have to do that for most of 2011 to win the annual competition. While I'd be very happy to be doing that much riding, it would also probably cost me either my marriage or my job. Or I could write a "FIT file faker" in an afternoon and spend a minute a day generating and uploading the fake files.
    Fortunately, most people will be honest. Remember what your old high school coach would always say "you are only cheating yourself!"
    If you see someone without a smile, give them yours

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by urban turban
    There needs to be a reason for people to cheat the system. Right now all you get for a KOM is to see your name at the top of a list. Only the laziest narcissist would resort to cheating for that.

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