Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!- Mtbr.com
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 200 of 473
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141

    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!

    I rode Crockett Hills yesterday and was rather shocked at recent damage to the trails due to running cattle during wet conditions. I last rode Crockett about 2 weeks ago and the extents of damage that has occured since then is really rather extreme. The scene is like some kind of bovine apocalypse! What Mr Rancher has done here simply can not be allowed. Are there not rules as to when/where cows can be run?
    Anyway the ride Fu#@ing ride sucked getting up to the flow trail only to discover that the flow trail is closed due to 'wilderness rehab' until September! They have got to be kidding! Their too late - the cows have already fuc#ed the place!
    I have left a message with East Bay Parks but have not heard back.
    Anyone else ride Crockett over the weekend?
    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Haven't been there since the recent rains. The trails were in pretty good shape back then (a few weeks ago), but with all the rains, it wouldn't take much to mess up the trails big time. I won't go there for another couple of weeks of dry weather as parts of those trails don't dry well, but would love to hear back from EBRPD...you should post on their fb page, they usually are pretty responsive there.

  3. #3
    Obi
    Obi is offline
    -_-
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,748

    Idea!

    Someone please go and get some pictures if there weren't any taken so it can be documented and shown when we need it for reference when dealing with EBRPD. Preferably taken with a digital format that contains geotag and time stamp info (turn your smart phone option on if using that for pictures).

    Thx

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Obi View Post
    Someone please go and get some pictures if there weren't any taken so it can be documented and shown when we need it for reference when dealing with EBRPD. Preferably taken with a digital format that contains geotag and time stamp info (turn your smart phone option on if using that for pictures).

    Thx
    Yes agreed.
    Unfortunately I did not have a camera.

  5. #5
    Over it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,798
    Just remember: Cows are good for the habitat.

    Keep repeating it until it sinks in. Now please moove along!



    #cowssuck
    Last edited by dirtvert; 03-21-2016 at 09:46 PM.
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice--pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

  6. #6
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Closed all summer? Isn't that one of the few bike legal places to ride in the East Bay Parks system?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: somanygoodbikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    523
    This closure is different than the one on Kestrel Loop? That is the fire road section to the west of the single tracks. It is the only closure noted on the EBRPD official website right now.

    If you are saying Sugar City is both trashed and closed, that is pretty bad news.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by somanygoodbikes View Post
    This closure is different than the one on Kestrel Loop? That is the fire road section to the west of the single tracks. It is the only closure noted on the EBRPD official website right now.

    If you are saying Sugar City is both trashed and closed, that is pretty bad news.
    The gate to Sugar City (flow trail) was padlocked with a sign stating closed until September. Appears to be the only place that escaped the trashing.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Is that the new singletrack coming down off the bench? If so it was locked for a few days last summer by someone not authorized. I complained and ebrpd cut the lock off and apologized. If someone can confirm the location I'll complain to them again. They have a phone number to contact, I have to find it somewhere...or someone else can get hold of them.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    310
    Ride there occasionally and a lot in Briones, same problem with the cows. The cattle destroy everything and once the rain stops it takes months to go back to normal. Once the trails are almost back to decent the District destroys them by grading them.
    I have no idea how anyone could ever complain about bikes causing any issue with the trail erosion.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    I spoke with someone at EBRPD in charge of cattle grazing management earlier today. Basically EBRPD has no policy concerning running of cattle and ranchers are pretty much free to run cattle at any time. They see trail damage as just part of the process of allowing cattle to graze. So while ranchers are free to allow their cows to destroy our trails we continue to get grief for riding our bikes! WARPED!!

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    810
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    I spoke with someone at EBRPD in charge of cattle grazing management earlier today. Basically EBRPD has no policy concerning running of cattle and ranchers are pretty much free to run cattle at any time. They see trail damage as just part of the process of allowing cattle to graze. So while ranchers are free to allow their cows to destroy our trails we continue to get grief for riding our bikes! WARPED!!
    Thanks for chasing down an explanation. Definite misalignment of goals for their various user groups.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    310
    My understanding is the land these parks are on was sold by rancher families to EBPD with a clause saying they would continue to allow leased grazing. Not sure what the actual deal was but that is what a EBP Cop told me once years ago.

    Funny the cop agreed with me that it made no sense that a biker could get a pretty decent fine for simply rolling across the grass or even riding on a single track that were created by cows, when the rancher rides his atv all over and the cows destroy everything.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    First time MTBR poster - psyched to join.

    Anyway, I rode Crockett Sunday early AM (March 20), and was appalled at the bovine devastation. That was only my second ride there, but the difference was shocking. I have been in communication with BTCEB, and they have in turn been in communication with EBRPD. Long story short: EBRPD may change up its trail maintenance calendar to address this section at the May 21 trail work day (Trail Work Day at Crockett Hills - Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (Berkeley, CA) - Meetup). This year's trail work will fix the short term problem, but there needs to be a long term fix/agreement with the ranchers to not graze that portion of the property during wet conditions.

    Anyway, the area affected is (sorry, I'm don't know the proper names) from the tunnel to the helipad - ~2 miles. Here is a map and some pics.

    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-crockett.jpg
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5589-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5590-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5592-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5594-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5595-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5600-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5602-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5603-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5608-800x600-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5624-600x800-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5634-800x600-.jpgCrockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5645-800x737-.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_5645.jpg  


  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    That looks like Briones, only narrower trails. Still not sure exactly where that is in CH, but that is from my not knowing the trails there even though I've ridden there at least a dozen times. That looks horrible, not sure trail work can fix that up without some equipment.

  16. #16
    fc
    fc is offline
    head minion Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    34,220
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    First time MTBR poster - psyched to join.

    Anyway, I rode Crockett Sunday early AM (March 20), and was appalled at the bovine devastation. That was only my second ride there, but the difference was shocking. I have been in communication with BTCEB, and they have in turn been in communication with EBRPD. Long story short: EBRPD may change up its trail maintenance calendar to address this section at the May 21 trail work day (Trail Work Day at Crockett Hills - Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (Berkeley, CA) - Meetup). This year's trail work will fix the short term problem, but there needs to be a long term fix/agreement with the ranchers to not graze that portion of the property during wet conditions.

    Anyway, the area affected is (sorry, I'm don't know the proper names) from the tunnel to the helipad - ~2 miles. Here is a map and some pics.

    Thanks for posting photos. Really brings home the issue here. Looks like the weather is about to turn sunny and really harden all those ruts. Bad news.
    IPA will save America

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hiphopopotamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    183
    Glass half full viewpoint:

    If areas like this in the east bay weren't used for ranch land, every square foot would be covered with 600k beige houses with no yards by now.

    That's right, BEIGE!

  18. #18
    AKD
    AKD is offline
    Getting hillier every day
    Reputation: AKD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    First time MTBR poster - psyched to join.
    ...
    Hah, that looks like it would be a really good CX challenge...

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by hiphopopotamus View Post
    Glass half full viewpoint:

    If areas like this in the east bay weren't used for ranch land, every square foot would be covered with 600k beige houses with no yards by now.

    That's right, BEIGE!
    From my POV, I am very glad that ranchers still operate in the Bay Area, and have created excellent multiple use opportunities that include mountain biking. I think we should support the ranchers' efforts to do so. And thank god for less BEIGE in the world.

    But I think the main point is an issue of management, not whether cows/rangeland should be there. The rancher could easily not graze their cattle during wet conditions on that portion of their range. The cows would leave comparatively minimal impact if grazed during dry conditions. That would save EBRPD tons of trail maintenance $$$.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by hiphopopotamus View Post
    Glass half full viewpoint:

    If areas like this in the east bay weren't used for ranch land, every square foot would be covered with 600k beige houses with no yards by now.

    That's right, BEIGE!
    head up @ss viewpoint and pathetic argument.

  21. #21
    Over it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,798
    ^^ Flag on the play for unnecessary roughness...

    hiphopotamus- Or they could just be regular parks like in MidPen. Parks filled with cow-brained rangers with radar guns. RADAR GUNS!

    I guess radar guns are better than cows. This thread makes me really happy that most of my riding happens in Santa Cruz!
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice--pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    310
    Good luck with EBPD, I've complained numerous times. Between the cattle then the rancher and his atv, which leaves huge ruts on the trails, there isn't much to stop it.

    Bottom line it's money,the rancher pays to run the cows on the land.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Dad View Post

    Bottom line it's money,the rancher pays to run the cows on the land.
    I'd be surprised if it's about money or the rancher is paying a significant amount. I have a feeling when the land was turned over or purchased by parks from probably a rancher, the rancher secured an easement for continued grazing access.

    I haven't researched this particular parcel, but the method I described is how open space is acquired in different places in the bay area. There are laws and tax breaks in California associated with maintaining open space, and what has traditionally been agricultural uses of land. I'm pretty sure grazing, cattle, sheep, goats, gets classified as ag useage.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    I posted on ebrpd fb page.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    534
    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Dad View Post
    Good luck with EBPD, I've complained numerous times. Between the cattle then the rancher and his atv, which leaves huge ruts on the trails, there isn't much to stop it.

    Bottom line it's money,the rancher pays to run the cows on the land.
    Welcome to EBRPD It's been this way for 30 plus years and won't be changing anytime soon.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    310
    Your probably right the money most likely is not huge, but I do know the land was sold to the district with the clause that leased grazing was to go on for a certain number of years. I heard a figure of 100yrs from someone but I don't really know.
    On a positive note I took my wife there to see the destruction last yr after years of me *****ing. I was able to get her to say yes to a new FS ride 😎

  27. #27
    Uncle
    Reputation: Entrenador's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    4,196
    Looks like Soaring Eagle trail, which makes sense since that is where the cattle seem to congregate most. That's the best trail in the park too, unfortunately - not technical at all but great views and turns. You feel like you are somewhere else on that trail.
    Strange though, there are fire roads not far from there, which seem like the more sensible route to run cattle. Unless they won't climb hills?

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    If that is Soaring Eagle, I would agree it is (was) my favorite trail there, a couple of miles of ridge trail with amazing views. Still don't know where the padlock is either. I wonder if EBRPD will reply to the post and picture I put up on their FB page....at least they were willing to post it, they didn't even have to do that.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    335
    29+ f/s with boost hubs should tame that trail right up

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    Sorry for the jong post: I attempted to post an additional reply, but I received a message saying that the post had to be approved by a moderator. This didn't happen for my first post. Any idea how to get the mod to approve a post? I don't see an address for a moderator anywhere on this site to send a PM, so any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks y'all.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    15
    Was there on Saturday and yeah, just completely trashed. Sugar City was untouched thankfully. The back trails are supposedly ok though I didn't venture back there.

    But Sugar city being closed for the summer would be awful. Hopefully that is just some idiot being a jerk. I was going to go today for a quick ride so I can update later if the gate is locked still.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    There may have been a similar closure to this one on the back trails last year: http://forums.mtbr.com/california-no...ap-960293.html

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hiphopopotamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    head up @ss viewpoint and pathetic argument.
    No, no, no. This would be the head up cow's ass viewpoint.

    Lol, mol.

    I agree that there should be some effort put in to stop the cows from messing up trails built specifically for mountain biking. But I'll still happily bounce down a rutted trail, shaking my fist at the cows as I pass ("Bessie you ol' rascal!")

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,781
    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault View Post
    I'd be surprised if it's about money or the rancher is paying a significant amount. I have a feeling when the land was turned over or purchased by parks from probably a rancher, the rancher secured an easement for continued grazing access.

    I haven't researched this particular parcel, but the method I described is how open space is acquired in different places in the bay area. There are laws and tax breaks in California associated with maintaining open space, and what has traditionally been agricultural uses of land. I'm pretty sure grazing, cattle, sheep, goats, gets classified as ag useage.

    -BINGO.

    It's how the property is deeded to the County. Similar situation down here in MoCo. but (thankfully!) we've not ever seen devastation THAT bad for any significant length on a trail or fire road.

    Good luck with the Parks Dept. DO NOT give up trying to work with them! Continue to go to meetings and share photo's, speak sensibly and eventually they will listen as your dedication to the process will leave a good impression.
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,781
    Quote Originally Posted by hiphopopotamus View Post
    No, no, no. This would be the head up cow's ass viewpoint.

    Lol, mol.

    I agree that there should be some effort put in to stop the cows from messing up trails built specifically for mountain biking. But I'll still happily bounce down a rutted trail, shaking my fist at the cows as I pass ("Bessie you ol' rascal!")

    -I refer to them as Brisket, Tri-Tip & Skirt Steak usually.
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,740
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    head up @ss viewpoint and pathetic argument.
    Except it is largely true. Much of the open space was obtained because the ranchers were only willing to sell if they could keep grazing rights. While I don't like the cows tearing it up, if the deals hadn't been made, we would have far fewer riding areas.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,740
    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT View Post
    -I refer to them as Brisket, Tri-Tip & Skirt Steak usually.
    Just remember to not scare them or make them run. It toughens the meat.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by Entrenador View Post
    .
    Strange though, there are fire roads not far from there, which seem like the more sensible route to run cattle. Unless they won't climb hills?
    Maybe I've spent too much time around cattle, but they seem to prefer single track too.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    Sorry for the jong post: I attempted to post an additional reply, but I received a message saying that the post had to be approved by a moderator. This didn't happen for my first post. Any idea how to get the mod to approve a post? I don't see an address for a moderator anywhere on this site to send a PM, so any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks y'all.
    EBP FB page is censored. Nothing will be posted if it viewed to be a complaint or criticism

    If you want to complain I suggest you contact EBRP director of grazinng opertions:
    Dennise Friez @ 1 (888) 327-2757

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    Except it is largely true. Much of the open space was obtained because the ranchers were only willing to sell if they could keep grazing rights. While I don't like the cows tearing it up, if the deals hadn't been made, we would have far fewer riding areas.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that grazing be stopped. That just ain't going to happen.
    What i am saying is that some basic rules be set concerning the operation of grazing cattle that addresses the needs of a muti-use park. Moving large herds through wet trails is not good stewardship and should not be allowed.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    Classic East Bay (see signature)
    Same deal out at Shell Ridge in Walnut creek (Not en EBRPD park though)
    And out at Lime Ridge they recently graded all the singletrack because of "damage from illegal cyclists".

    Miss living in Oakland and close to JMP more and more every day. It was small, but it's a gem compared to everything else.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    EBP FB page is censored. Nothing will be posted if it viewed to be a complaint or criticism

    If you want to complain I suggest you contact EBRP director of grazinng opertions:
    Dennise Friez @ 1 (888) 327-2757
    I tried to post this forum, not the EBP FB page. Question still stands: how do I get the mod (of MTBR) to approve a post? Or can someone let me know how to contact a MTBR mod? Thanks.

  43. #43
    AKD
    AKD is offline
    Getting hillier every day
    Reputation: AKD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    I tried to post this forum, not the EBP FB page. Question still stands: how do I get the mod (of MTBR) to approve a post? Or can someone let me know how to contact a MTBR mod? Thanks.
    I think it's just because you're a low post count JONG, which will fix itself in due course. Otherwise, PM one of the mods. FC, Chum, and JCWages are the regulars on NorCal.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,263
    A couple of EBPD people are suppose to go out there today or tomorrow to look at the damage ,if I hear what they say I'll report back.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    810
    Playing devil's advocate - nasty weather is a great time to move a herd due to fewer users. If there was some way to run a roller or whatever down the trail to smooth things out before it dries, that could minimize damage.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    Playing devil's advocate - nasty weather is a great time to move a herd due to fewer users. If there was some way to run a roller or whatever down the trail to smooth things out before it dries, that could minimize damage.
    Understood, but I would much rather they close the trails for a day to move cattle rather than destroy the trials by moving over wet conditions.

  47. #47
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    Playing devil's advocate - nasty weather is a great time to move a herd due to fewer users. If there was some way to run a roller or whatever down the trail to smooth things out before it dries, that could minimize damage.
    Yep. It would be great if volunteers could be utilized to buff out the trail post trampling.

    The bummer being the prohibition on trail work is based on owl/raptor nesting or something else.

    It would be great to get an exemption for shovels and wheelbarrows. Good luck with that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by rangeriderdave View Post
    A couple of EBPD people are suppose to go out there today or tomorrow to look at the damage ,if I hear what they say I'll report back.
    Thanks.
    The guy I have been speaking with Dan Wan says he went and had a look and says he isn't at all bothered and that users should expect this as part of having cattle present. Nice to see EBRPD working for the protection of the parks!

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    810
    After hearing Dan Wan's response, the devil shall have no advocate. If that's the response received from this question, is this similar to what they tell other users about bikes?

  50. #50
    NRP
    NRP is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    745
    Has anyone ever seriously tried to get land managers/park rangers into mountain biking? Take them over from within.

    As someone who works for a govt agency (air pollution), I can tell you that reasoned discourse supported by objective evidence together with reasonable suggested solutions goes a lot farther than vitriolic, adversarial complaining and name calling.

  51. #51
    Duck Fonald
    Reputation: Finch Platte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    17,374
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post

    I guess radar guns are better than cows. This thread makes me really happy that most of my riding happens in Santa Cruz!
    This thread makes me incredulous that out of 430 views on my Hogan thread, we have one rider signed up to ride.

    No cows on our trails, no rangers with radar, just singletrack.

    My mind be boggling.
    “The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”

    George Orwell

  52. #52
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    Has anyone ever seriously tried to get land managers/park rangers into mountain biking? Take them over from within.

    As someone who works for a govt agency (air pollution), I can tell you that reasoned discourse supported by objective evidence together with reasonable suggested solutions goes a lot farther than vitriolic, adversarial complaining and name calling.
    Yes. I've been volunteering with the local land management agencies. I also help at a private property trail project and showed some of the parks staff our method for maintaining berms. Getting hired at one of these agencies is pretty tough and it would require a career change on my part.

    BTCEB seems to be working hard at solutions but it really takes a lot of engaged community members to take over boards, commissions and advisory panels. Doubly so if there are those in opposition to cycling access which sadly for the East Bay: the haters run deep, yo.

    For some reason 6(ish) haters screaming about evil bikes seem to have some kind of jedi mind hold over the BOS in Marin. Something progressive such as Crockett Hills is still a long ways off for Marin County.

    Mostly I think people are just frustrated with the lack of access in general.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: telemike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    884
    Profit is not the most important reason for grazing these parks. By August, dried grasses and forbs burn like gasoline. Many property managers graze cattle or sheep, even goats, to reduce the fire danger. Remember, there are houses and businesses around all of these parks and the parks are obligated to reduce fire danger.

    I also hate the damage. Note that complaining hunters, hikers, and us mtb types got the cattle grazing ended on the Cache Creek wild lands. The elk herd seconds the motion! What is needed is:

    1. Agreements limiting movement of livestock on vulnerable wet trails, especially with the horsey people.

    2. A method of remediating the trails after the graze. That could be our job.

  54. #54
    Ride More - Suffer Less
    Reputation: TraxFactory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Posts
    2,333
    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Dad View Post
    I have no idea how anyone could ever complain about bikes causing any issue with the trail erosion.
    Its just so true!

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    576
    Quote Originally Posted by telemike View Post
    Profit is not the most important reason for grazing these parks. By August, dried grasses and forbs burn like gasoline. Many property managers graze cattle or sheep, even goats, to reduce the fire danger. Remember, there are houses and businesses around all of these parks and the parks are obligated to reduce fire danger.

    I also hate the damage. Note that complaining hunters, hikers, and us mtb types got the cattle grazing ended on the Cache Creek wild lands. The elk herd seconds the motion! What is needed is:

    1. Agreements limiting movement of livestock on vulnerable wet trails, especially with the horsey people.

    2. A method of remediating the trails after the graze. That could be our job.
    A few points: Profit is hardly the motive for the parks...I read once that the monthly charge for a cow/calf pair is minimal.

    The damage doesn't come from ranchers herding the cows, they move around just fine on their own. A good stampede and they can move half a mile in less than 10 minutes. The only thing that contains them are fences, fences cost money to put up and maintain.

    Fixing the trails is next to impossible after they dry a bit, sadly the only thing that will fix the damage is time and hundreds more of them tromping over the trail when it is dried out. That or a motorcycle race which isn't going to happen. I have been riding Briones for almost 20 years and have seen the pattern repeat itself a few times over the years, especially the last section of BOS.

    All of this is being paid for by tax dollars for the benefit of McDonald's and In and Out.
    Romani ite domum

  56. #56
    J-Flo
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,729
    Those pictures are awful. The horror!

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plantguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    209
    That really sucks!
    EBRPD does have grazing management plans that spell out how to manage cattle on their lands. I don’t have time to sort through these but maybe someone else could find out key points that could be used to hold them to addressing this mess. DT

    Search Results

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    There are solutions here that could work for all parties: for the parks, for the public (hikers and birders), for riders, for the grazers, and for fire conditions. I agree with those who said that a simple grazing management change, to keep the cattle off during wet conditions, is all that is necessary. The challenge is figuring out how to get all parties on the same page.

    The terms of the lease and associated grazing management plan for that property will govern. EBRPD's template does not address the issue, but here it is: http://www.ebparks.org/Assets/_Nav_C...ng+License.pdf

    One option would be to just "close" certain areas from Dec-April. The cows can get to the affected pasture in May once things have dried up, and they can provide the fire suppression benefits noted above. EBRPD will save money annually avoiding annual repair cost. And trail users (MTB, hikers, and birders) will get the benefit of trails not destroyed by cows. Multiple use management of these lands provides benefits for everyone -- it just takes a bit of coordination and planning. Ultimately, I think it will be a matter of pushing for and obtaining a negotiated solution.

    BTCEB is working on this issue, so let's support them. Crockett could be an example of how to better manage multiple use park land for EBRPD - an example sorely needed in the East Bay.

  59. #59
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,325
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    I rode Crockett Hills yesterday and was rather shocked at recent damage to the trails due to running cattle during wet conditions. I last rode Crockett about 2 weeks ago and the extents of damage that has occured since then is really rather extreme. The scene is like some kind of bovine apocalypse! What Mr Rancher has done here simply can not be allowed. Are there not rules as to when/where cows can be run?
    Anyway the ride Fu#@ing ride sucked getting up to the flow trail only to discover that the flow trail is closed due to 'wilderness rehab' until September! They have got to be kidding! Their too late - the cows have already fuc#ed the place!
    I have left a message with East Bay Parks but have not heard back.
    Anyone else ride Crockett over the weekend?
    Thoughts?
    This is basically standard for east bay regional parks. shell ridge, diablo, briones - they all look exactly like what you're seeing in crocket.

    For that reason, I wouldn't call this extreme. I would call it normal.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    This is basically standard for east bay regional parks. shell ridge, diablo, briones - they all look exactly like what you're seeing in crocket.

    For that reason, I wouldn't call this extreme. I would call it normal.
    WRONG. This is not at all normal. I have been riding Crockett regularly for a couple years and never seen conditions even close to this. Ditto for the other areas you note above.

  61. #61
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,325
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    WRONG. This is not at all normal. I have been riding Crockett regularly for a couple years and never seen conditions even close to this. Ditto for the other areas you note above.
    it hasn't rained in 3 years.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    it hasn't rained in 3 years.
    ........and the earth is flat

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Buddha43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    253
    IHB is correct. I have been riding these areas (not CH's) for my entire life, wet winters these places get hammered........always have always will.

  64. #64
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    District has received complaints and will work with their grazing manager to minimize damage. But short of fencing trails or removing cattle, some damage will be unavoidable.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    FWIW, I got a reply from the park district on their FB page. I had suggested someone get a group out with equipment to do trail repair. They replied that it sounded like a good idea, here is their response verbatim. Worth trying to get it fixed?

    That sounds like a good idea, please contact the park by the same email or calling the staff at Martinez Reg Shoreline: (888-327-2757), option 3, extension 4542.

  66. #66
    sure...follow me
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    104
    Mark May 21st on your calendar. The Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay has been invited by the EBRPD to work on the trails at Crockett Hills. This is a day for mountain bikers to show up in force to repair the trails addressed in this thread. The more interest and initiative we show, the more likely the EBRPD will respond. A preliminary announcement is posted on Meetup. Go to Trail Work Day at Crockett Hills - Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay. More information will be posted as we receive it.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    That is great, but isn't there a more pressing need to fix this destroyed trail while things are still damp? In two months this will be rock hard and impossible to restore...or am I wrong. Also, do these days normally fix miles of trail in a single day?

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha43 View Post
    IHB is correct. I have been riding these areas (not CH's) for my entire life, wet winters these places get hammered........always have always will.
    yeah so lets just get on our knees and bow down to the ranching community. We'll just continue to be content with whatever pathetic scraps we are thrown.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    534
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    yeah so lets just get on our knees and bow down to the ranching community. We'll just continue to be content with whatever pathetic scraps we are thrown.
    You're either new to the EB and the ways of EBRPD or you're living up to your moniker. There are plenty of folks on this BB who have fought the fight with the local agencies only to be left with little or no gains in access or changes in policies. But you can take up the pursuit anytime bro

  70. #70
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    Let's see: all the land for sale belongs to ranchers. So, do we really think that grazing is going to be disallowed so that the district stops buying land? Best we can hope for us better grazing practices. Plus bovines make sweet contour single tracks

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  71. #71
    I like mtn biking, too
    Reputation: shredchic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,193
    I know - let's boycott beef & dairy.
    Half the planet is deep into bloody tribal mayhem. We’re just riding bikes (and drinking beer) here.
    ~Fairfaxian

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Let's see: all the land for sale belongs to ranchers. So, do we really think that grazing is going to be disallowed so that the district stops buying land? Best we can hope for us better grazing practices. Plus bovines make sweet contour single tracks

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Hopeless knee jerk response.
    READ!

  73. #73
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    Hopeless knee jerk response.
    READ!
    No need to get testy. Just giving you the lay of the land in the east bay.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harry Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,322
    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I know - let's boycott beef & dairy.
    Please no! Anything but that!

  75. #75
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,325
    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I know - let's boycott beef & dairy.
    You've been harping on the beef industry for a while now. Ideologue much?
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  76. #76
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    I really like Crockett Hills but this is all getting bit too precious. This is not some groomed mountain bike park or Endor but bike-optimized multi-use public parkland. It would be nice to take advantage of the softer ground to smooth things out now. Won't happen. A Trail Work day is scheduled for May and those have been a part of BTC efforts (including NorCal High School Cycling, REI, and Clif Bar) since 2009.

    There are plenty of mountain bikers in the EBRPD and they are moving into positions that benefit us well. Yet the greater portion of staff are non-bikers and while the Master Plan supports our access the extant culture there is slow to change at every point. Even our best supporters within that organization have to work within that construct.

    It is slow work and that will never change. That said, La Farine pastries were brought to the Reception gals before the last meeting with the park folk. We keep showing up, we aren't going away; that is what works.

    I've been riding in these parks since the late 80s and this stuff always smooths out. Let's not make this the flash-point for all of our frustrations with lack of access. We'll manage.
    I don't rattle.

  77. #77
    Over it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,798
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    You've been harping on the beef industry for a while now. Ideologue much?
    Pot (drunk) kettle much?

    Call it a draw!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 03-25-2016 at 09:47 PM.
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice--pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

  78. #78
    I like mtn biking, too
    Reputation: shredchic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3,193

    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    You've been harping on the beef industry for a while now. Ideologue much?
    I heart irony.
    And I don't harp on this much. Only when appropriate.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Half the planet is deep into bloody tribal mayhem. We’re just riding bikes (and drinking beer) here.
    ~Fairfaxian

  79. #79
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    There are solutions here that could work for all parties: for the parks, for the public (hikers and birders), for riders, for the grazers, and for fire conditions. I agree with those who said that a simple grazing management change, to keep the cattle off during wet conditions, is all that is necessary. The challenge is figuring out how to get all parties on the same page.

    The terms of the lease and associated grazing management plan for that property will govern. EBRPD's template does not address the issue, but here it is: http://www.ebparks.org/Assets/_Nav_C...ng+License.pdf

    One option would be to just "close" certain areas from Dec-April. The cows can get to the affected pasture in May once things have dried up, and they can provide the fire suppression benefits noted above. EBRPD will save money annually avoiding annual repair cost. And trail users (MTB, hikers, and birders) will get the benefit of trails not destroyed by cows. Multiple use management of these lands provides benefits for everyone -- it just takes a bit of coordination and planning. Ultimately, I think it will be a matter of pushing for and obtaining a negotiated solution.

    BTCEB is working on this issue, so let's support them. Crockett could be an example of how to better manage multiple use park land for EBRPD - an example sorely needed in the East Bay.
    Unfortunately this doesn't work for grazing operators.

    The typical grazing season for dryland pasture is October-May. After May, forgage quality drops precipitously and livestock are usually moved to irrigated pasture or higher ground. Some ranchers will supplement with hay, molasses, mineral licks etc, but this is not sustainable. Lactating cows need the high quality feed available during the wetter months. It's all about max weight gain. That's how a rancher makes his or her living.

    The type of grazing described above is considered prescribed grazing and that comes at a high price to the landowner. In the typical grazing operation the rancher pays the landowner to have his/her cattle on the preserve. In a prescribed grazing operation the tables are flipped and the landowner pays the rancher and the cost is much higher due to the amount of work moving livestock around constantly.

    Prescribed grazing can be done but it is expensive and many grazing operators with cattle will not do it which leaves sheep and goats. There is also the concern for the wellbeing of ranchers to consider.

  80. #80
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    I didn't get to finish my thought because I needed to help with dinner.

    Anyway, some species of invasive grasses need to be target grazed March-May. So that could also create a problem for grazing timelines.

    The real problem is what to do with the cows during the times that they should be off the trails. There is simply nowhere else for them to go and until we can breed hibernating cattle we are simply stuck with the historic grazing seasons. The rancher cannot afford to feed cattle hay until the parks are open and the parks cannot afford to pay the rancher what he needs to break even. Moving livestock is a huge cost so you cannot simply whisk them around on the whims of each special interest group.

    I'm currently struggling with sustainable solutions to this very matter and there are no easy solutions. If there were we would already be doing it the right way.

  81. #81
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    33,488
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,188
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    WRONG. This is not at all normal. I have been riding Crockett regularly for a couple years and never seen conditions even close to this. Ditto for the other areas you note above.
    Its been two days since somebody posted about the trail work day. You have posted a couple smart a$$ replies to people but have not mentioned the work day, or committed to it. Maybe you are a sh!thead
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  83. #83
    Is dang happy!
    Reputation: Mr. Doom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,362
    Excited about this.
    Future Food - In Vitro Meat
    The wheel is a extension of the foot

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,740
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    Unfortunately this doesn't work for grazing operators.

    The typical grazing season for dryland pasture is October-May. After May, forgage quality drops precipitously and livestock are usually moved to irrigated pasture or higher ground. Some ranchers will supplement with hay, molasses, mineral licks etc, but this is not sustainable. Lactating cows need the high quality feed available during the wetter months. It's all about max weight gain. That's how a rancher makes his or her living.

    The type of grazing described above is considered prescribed grazing and that comes at a high price to the landowner. In the typical grazing operation the rancher pays the landowner to have his/her cattle on the preserve. In a prescribed grazing operation the tables are flipped and the landowner pays the rancher and the cost is much higher due to the amount of work moving livestock around constantly.

    Prescribed grazing can be done but it is expensive and many grazing operators with cattle will not do it which leaves sheep and goats. There is also the concern for the wellbeing of ranchers to consider.
    How dare you consider the needs of others. Don't you know that you are supposed to be selfish and only think of yourself?!!!!
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  85. #85
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    How dare you consider the needs of others. Don't you know that you are supposed to be selfish and only think of yourself?!!!!
    Is that why you are so dead set against electric assist bikes sharing trails with you?

  86. #86
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    How dare you consider the needs of others. Don't you know that you are supposed to be selfish and only think of yourself?!!!!
    I do that when we're talking about the last beer.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: somanygoodbikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    523
    Short version: No single track at Crockett is closed right now. Go get some.

    Pictures etc. in a while, but it looks like a case where people are reading cues and coming to the conclusion that trails are closed when they are not. There is a lock and chain on the gate above Sugar City, but the lock serves no function. The chain has a carabiner in it and you can open it at will. There's no other way to keep the gate closed (the original mechanism is broken), so that's probably all the chain is there for.

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: somanygoodbikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    523
    Long version:

    When you approach the top of Sugar City, you see this gate that appears to be padlocked.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7910.jpg

    And this sign that mentions trail closure.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7911.jpg

    However, the sign only mentions Kestrel Loop, which is fire road trail well to the west of all the single track. Almost all of that trail is not even shown on the section of the map posted.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7912.jpg

    The lock doesn't actually lock anything.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7913.jpg

    The gate is missing some original hardware that would have helped it stay closed. Without the current chain, it could be opened by wind, a nudge from a cow, etc.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7914.jpg

    This is the lower part of the Kestrel Loop. This is what an official attempt to close a trail looks like. You can't even see the road bed anymore.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7930.jpg

    This is the upper part of Kestrel Loop. The barrier is falling apart but it too is overgrown from lack of use. Both junctions loop off Big Valley Trail to the west. The single track is to the east of Big Valley Trail.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7932.jpg

    This sign was originally on the orange plastic webbing that blocked the top of Kestrel. When it got moved up to this gate in front of some unclosed trails and some closed trails, its meaning became ambiguous.
    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!-img_7933.jpg

    Sugar City was in good shape.

    Tree Frog had one tree down that was difficult to portage around. Better to just shortcut a few steps down to the trail below. You only miss out on like 100 yards of trail.

    Wildflowers are out in force!

    Cows and their leavings are plentiful.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Thanks for the update. Hope to ride it this week. Maybe one small partial solution would be to schedule trail work days when things are still damp and fixable? Not meaning to alter the global food supply chain discussion, just trying to figure out a way to get some of the specific trail damage done this wet winter repaired. I don't think ebrpd would object...maybe next year.

  90. #90
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,737
    Great idea. Maybe we plant that seed this year for next year. Send it to EBRPD.
    I don't rattle.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BKXC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    310
    Just rode it tonight and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Did a video: https://youtu.be/r0MEVJTC-4I

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Looks pretty bad to me..

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    334
    Yeah, bad enough I wouldn't want to ride it on my hard tail.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by sivilized View Post
    Just rode it tonight and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Did a video: https://youtu.be/r0MEVJTC-4I
    Thanks for the vid. Soaring Eagle still looks very messed up to me.

    Question: It looked like you turned right after the the gate to the sugar city flow trail - I believe that is Kestrel? I have never rode that trail and always ride the flow trail. How is that trail?

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    59
    Hello - Does anyone know the name of the ranching companies or who they supply their beef to? It seems that there is good work being done with EBRPD and there are a lot of responses regarding money and business needs, so I am thinking putting pressure on the ranchers via their business channels might prove helpful in making change happen. I'm not talking about being a dick to them, just letting them and their customers know that we will be boycotting them until a reasonable solution is found that allows all parties to share the space in it's contemporary context rather than just going in circles about the legacy legal rights of the cattle business that contractually supersede the interests of the public.

  96. #96
    chupicocconut
    Reputation: tangrip9's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    225
    Went to Crockett last night, rode Edwards, Soaring Eagle and Sugar City. Obviously as the previous pictures show, Soaring Eagle was completely trashed, don't get me wrong- I still rocked it, but on a 160 millimeter 29er with a coil shock. Would probably really suck on something more conservative. Super awesome that there is a trail work day coming up. I will definitely be sharing this as I manage a Facebook group of almost 100 riders, with most being local. Should be able to get some good help out there. Everything is so dry and hard though and especially with more sun between now and the end of May it's hard to believe that they're going to be able to do any real work on it without the use of a trail machine. Hopefully they are planning on that. Although the dirt on Sugar City ( the way this Trail was constructed pretty much sucks in my opinion but it is the best thing close to home ) was not too bad the weeds were so high almost got taken down a few times with them wrapping around my handlebars while shredding the rollers and berms. How about we get a group out there and instead of doing dirt work just cut down some weeds? Anybody want to get down with that on a Tuesday or Thursday night?

  97. #97
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    Hello - Does anyone know the name of the ranching companies or who they supply their beef to? It seems that there is good work being done with EBRPD and there are a lot of responses regarding money and business needs, so I am thinking putting pressure on the ranchers via their business channels might prove helpful in making change happen. I'm not talking about being a dick to them, just letting them and their customers know that we will be boycotting them until a reasonable solution is found that allows all parties to share the space in it's contemporary context rather than just going in circles about the legacy legal rights of the cattle business that contractually supersede the interests of the public.
    I'm not sure that would work because most producers are not selling to a defined niche or market that is approachable. They generally sell to a large market. I'm not even sure what you could tell them that is a workable solution. *scratches head*

    For more info:
    Cattle 101
    Environmental Stewardship - Home

  98. #98
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Alternatively, you could try and promote the use of sheep grazing instead. They are lighter on the trails and are intermediate grazers so they can handle grasses and brush.

    I think Hidden Falls Regional Park is changing their grazing program and trying to utilize sheep. I'm not 100% sure of the plan though. The cattle did quite a bit of damage to the new trails out there.

  99. #99
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BKXC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    310
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    Thanks for the vid. Soaring Eagle still looks very messed up to me.

    Question: It looked like you turned right after the the gate to the sugar city flow trail - I believe that is Kestrel? I have never rode that trail and always ride the flow trail. How is that trail?
    Shit, sorry didn't get your notification. That USED to be called Sugar City trail, now it's called Two Peaks trail. It's a fun, fast and quick trail, I like it. It bypasses the flow trail and you still stay up high, so it's nice for quicker loops.

    Here's the map view: OpenCycleMap.org - the OpenStreetMap Cycle Map

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I'm not sure that would work because most producers are not selling to a defined niche or market that is approachable. They generally sell to a large market. I'm not even sure what you could tell them that is a workable solution. *scratches head*

    For more info:
    Cattle 101
    Environmental Stewardship - Home
    As a consumer I have the opportunity to voice my opinion through highlighting a PR concern for a private business that negatively impacts my life. It's not my role, or certainly my expertise, to find solutions but to simply put pressure on the private business to engage in good faith with the entities that have the expertise to find solutions (EBRPD). I am completely ignorant of grazing practices and the economic realities of running cattle, but that should not mean that my interests, and the interests of the local taxpaying community should be ignored under the pretense of being superseded by a contract. If EBRPD has their hands tied due to bureaucratic arrangements and has persistently failed in making effective change, voicing concerns through other channels seems like it could only help. Again, I am ignorant of the arrangements, but this seems like a systemic problem that is given a band-aid fix approach through free labor trail maintenance. Perhaps the cattle companies can sponsor the trail maintenance days, offer staff and tools, etc. These are the ideas I come up with as a reaction to trying to ride my local trails and running into bovine damage and reading up on the discussion, but more than anything I am ignorant of how the arrangements between the ranchers and EBRPD are negotiated and if EBRPD has any leeway at all within the contracts they have. I also understand the notion that making it more difficult for the ranchers may have a negative impact on acquiring new space, but I can't work from a no-we-can't stance.

  101. #101
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    59
    I think I just joined BTCEB - via memberplanet...gave them $30, but the process was weird. Got directed here: bicycletrailscouncil but I thought the main page was here: bicycletrailscouncil. Only got email confirmations that were memberplanet branded. Did I just get ripped off? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I want to help and if I found that process potentially shady other people are probably having a similar experience. Where is the resource on trail maintenance days?

  102. #102
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,263
    This is the response that the BTC received fromn the parks : I’m not confident that Soaring Eagle will be repaired by May 14th. Could you take the fire road to connect the lower section to the new trail system? Park staff said that the section does look a little bit better, and that often the pocks work themselves out as things dry up. I have not had the opportunity to get out that direction, but plan to within the next 2 weeks to see if there is progress. Our crew who operates the Sweco is pressed with several emergency water line and road repairs (there have been multiple major slides and breaks with the rains this past winter…not that I’m complaining!) and cannot get to the trails at this time. We are trying to work with Park staff and Operations to develop a plan that is cost effective. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding a reroute onto the road.

    https://www.ebparks.org/Assets/ebrpd_green_leaf.jpg


    Suzanne Wilson

    Senior Planner - Trails Development | Trails Development Program

    East Bay Regional Park District

    2950 Peralta Oaks Court, Oakland, CA 94605

    T: 510-544-2609| F: 510-569-1417

    [email protected] | East Bay Regional Park District | Embrace Life!

  103. #103
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    I think I just joined BTCEB - via memberplanet...gave them $30, but the process was weird. Got directed here: bicycletrailscouncil but I thought the main page was here: bicycletrailscouncil. Only got email confirmations that were memberplanet branded. Did I just get ripped off? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I want to help and if I found that process potentially shady other people are probably having a similar experience. Where is the resource on trail maintenance days?
    Likely no. They updated the system. I had to relogin even though I joined a little while back. Not like I cared. It took about 3 seconds or so. Just about the length of my attention span...

    SQUIRREL!!!

    http://youtu.be/SSUXXzN26zg

  104. #104
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    As a consumer I have the opportunity to voice my opinion through highlighting a PR concern for a private business that negatively impacts my life. It's not my role, or certainly my expertise, to find solutions but to simply put pressure on the private business to engage in good faith with the entities that have the expertise to find solutions (EBRPD). I am completely ignorant of grazing practices and the economic realities of running cattle, but that should not mean that my interests, and the interests of the local taxpaying community should be ignored under the pretense of being superseded by a contract. If EBRPD has their hands tied due to bureaucratic arrangements and has persistently failed in making effective change, voicing concerns through other channels seems like it could only help. Again, I am ignorant of the arrangements, but this seems like a systemic problem that is given a band-aid fix approach through free labor trail maintenance. Perhaps the cattle companies can sponsor the trail maintenance days, offer staff and tools, etc. These are the ideas I come up with as a reaction to trying to ride my local trails and running into bovine damage and reading up on the discussion, but more than anything I am ignorant of how the arrangements between the ranchers and EBRPD are negotiated and if EBRPD has any leeway at all within the contracts they have. I also understand the notion that making it more difficult for the ranchers may have a negative impact on acquiring new space, but I can't work from a no-we-can't stance.
    Hmmm

    It's a bidding process to obtain a grazing contract and it is market driven. One stipulation employed by most land owners is that ranching operators are responsible for fence maintenance and repairs. Maybe we should start including trail maintenance as well? Because trails have specific designs for features the rancher may not be able to do it him or herself but the fees could be increased such that it pays a trail contractor for annual cleanup. It's not economically feasible for a lot of rancher but maybe it is for some. It's worth throwing out the idea.

    Thanks for the thoughts!

  105. #105
    mtbr member
    Reputation: somanygoodbikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    523
    In regard to the "could you take the fire road" instead comment embedded above. The group I was with took that on our return leg out and it was just as bad.

  106. #106
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    I know I've seen another thread on Crockett, but just want to bump this one. I "rode" it on Friday on my way back from Sac. I probably won't stop there again.

    Soaring Eagle's pock marks have hardened and smoothed somewhat since March (when I posted those pics on Page 1), but they still have transformed a formerly smooth and flowy ridgetop trail into a bone-rattling ride. Some folks in this thread said the bovine devastation would smooth out from the riding all summer long. Nope. The pocks aren't 8 inches deep anymore, but the trail is nowhere near "smooth."

    Worse yet, the cows have had their way with the Sugar City flow trail. It's a pocked, bone-rattling mess that's a mere shadow of its former glory.

    The cows were jammed up all the way over to Tree Frog (name of the southern loop), but I had to jam before I could do that outer loop.

    If I was the land manager who paid for these trail improvements and constructed the flow trail, I would be livid. Or better yet, I'd like to have some recompense for the destruction. I don't know what the grazer's conditions of use of the land are, but I highly doubt that the lease allows the grazer to cause property damage -- which plainly would extend to the damage caused to these trails -- without any consequence. Further, the community of Crockett stands to lose from the mountain bikers that won't be coming back and spending money in town. Too bad.

  107. #107
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Amazing how quickly this went from the 'jewel in the crown' of EBRPD parks for mtn bikers to just another cattle grazing area...I haven't ridden there in a while, but if they have destroyed some of the other singletrack, that is a really bad outcome.

  108. #108
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    59
    I also rode there very recently and had to avoid cows on sugar city dh, which is a ruined mess not worth riding. I bumped into a man in a truck who was working for the cattle ranchers and had a polite conversation with him. He said they are trying to work it out but I took this as pure placation due to the state of the trail, the multiple cows on Sugar city and the duration of time with no change in conditions. It was the closest OK trail by my house and it is 100% dead and buried now. RIP, I won't go back. I am a member of BTCED and will gladly do trail work if there is a contractual agreement that would maintain that the trails would not be destroyed by cattle without time-based repercussions. I'd love to be in the loop on such a development.

  109. #109
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Amazing the land manager is so lame about letting people work on the trails. This could all be sorted with a little rain and a plate compactor. Change is good for trails. Add new features. Fix stuff that wasn't dialed the first time around. But only if people that care are allowed to volunteer.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  110. #110
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Amazing the land manager is so lame about letting people work on the trails. This could all be sorted with a little rain and a plate compactor. Change is good for trails. Add new features. Fix stuff that wasn't dialed the first time around. But only if people that care are allowed to volunteer.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    How would you keep volunteers interested when their work would demonstrably just get destroyed?

  111. #111
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    How would you keep volunteers interested when their work would demonstrably just get destroyed?
    Good question. These will also be good questions for Marin County Parks for Region 4 of the RTMP process.

    One would hope that East Bay Parks could pay for a bit of fencing to keep the cows of the trails?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  112. #112
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,325
    One has to wonder at the wisdom of a parks department that lets cattle run roughshod over hill and dale and won't allow cyclists on narrow trails.

    What exactly is their motivation? Makes no sense.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  113. #113
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    310
    The problem from what I've been told is that Crockett like Briones was sold by the ranch families that owned them for years with provisions that the land had to be leased back for grazing for so many years. Ive heard a number of 50 and also 100 yrs, not sure if it is correct or not. The rancher at Briones told me he moves his cattle multiple times a month to limit over grazing in any one area, which makes sense but unfortunately during wet times the cattle destroy the trails. It is not just an issue for us as the main trails get so thrashed even hikers can't use them..
    The type of soil in both parks make the damage so much harder to fix when the rains end, the clay soil dries into cement!

    Funny the only trails that don't get destroyed by the cattle, at least in Briones seem to be the illegal ones.

  114. #114
    mtbr member
    Reputation: RexBanner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    15
    "Worse yet, the cows have had their way with the Sugar City flow trail. It's a pocked, bone-rattling mess that's a mere shadow of its former glory."

    It's so true. I ride in Crockett a lot (more of a local carido ride than destination given where I live), and have witnessed firsthand how that park went from something special to a cow-trampled disappointment. Even last fall/winter, at least, the cows were kept off Sugar City. Fast forward to last weekend and on my favorite section of that trail, I had to dodge cow-dung left and right (not to mention the other issues). It's why I tell my friends not to make the drive.

    The sad thing is, awhile back, I would have said it was the perfect place to introduce somebody to MTB. A short-ish ride with a fun, all-skills friendly downhill, great views and a cool town to grab in beer or a bite to eat in afterward. Now, I wouldn't risk brining somebody new there.

  115. #115
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Is there a way to make the town aware of the destruction, and the likely negative economic impact this will have?

  116. #116
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    Is there a way to make the town aware of the destruction, and the likely negative economic impact this will have?
    I'm not a local, but maybe a letter sent to both the Crockett Board (Crockett Community Services District, CA - Board of Directors) and the Crockett Chamber of Commerce (Crockett Chamber of Commerce - Home), with CC to EBRPD.

  117. #117
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harry Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,322
    Damn I just rode Crockett on my hardtail two weeks ago and had a lot of fun on the previously mentioned trails. It was a day after some trailwork was done though. Trails were in great condition that day. Does anyone have pics of damage? Would be good to see if it's actual damage in that short time or if people just want it to be a nice smooth family grade multi use path.

  118. #118
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    I also rode Crockett a couple weeks ago and thought it was in pretty good shape. Tree Frog dirt was in perfect condition, but too many wet oak leaves on the ground, looked like it hadn't been ridden that much? Made it a little sketchy. Sugar city was pretty beat up I suppose, although not that bad considering how some of these cattle trails can get.

    EBRPD really doesn't seem to give a sh*t what cyclists think or want, and I guess the hikers don't complain enough about how cattle impact trail conditions (and equestrians are part of the problem), so I'm pretty not much will change in these parts.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  119. #119
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harry Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,322
    My biggest complaint with Sugar Shitty is that one mud slop near the end. It's been there since summer. Kind of ruins the flow and people have just been cutting across the field instead of following the trail. Otherwise that's such a perfect trail for a hardtail. I'd say the whole park is prime hardtail riding. It's no Santa Cruz but find me something better nearby Crockett? Actually don't find me something better because I already know where it is.

  120. #120
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    I almost went there today, so glad I did a road ride. That's saying something (road ride was probably less fun than those hoof marks). I feel really bad for all of the volunteers that made those trails. They are pretty good when smooth, especially Soaring Eagle. Soaring Eagle is just kind of a nice smooth "from here to there" trail that is fun if the wind is at your back. I caught it a few months ago after being trampled by cows, and it was washboard hell. I too will pass by Crocket, and head to Skyline Napa and Rockville. RIP

  121. #121
    Ride More - Suffer Less
    Reputation: TraxFactory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Posts
    2,333
    Unfortunately its standard for EBRPD parks, I have seen this for many years on various trails. Everything seems to be an after thought. Eventually the trails will get better and hopefully they will allow a real crew in there to shore things up.

    Good thing suspension is so great these days. Crockett is like some weird land managers experiment it seems...

  122. #122
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    40
    I wonder if it would make sense to spend some time (I'd volunteer) working on Tree Frog. That trail could be really nice with a bit more maintenance and the cows don't hit it so hard. Have seen a few turkeys on there but they don't seem to leave the same prints....

  123. #123
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    One has to wonder at the wisdom of a parks department that lets cattle run roughshod over hill and dale and won't allow cyclists on narrow trails.

    What exactly is their motivation? Makes no sense.

    Cows are not mechanized! They belong here! La la la! I can't hear you!

  124. #124
    Hella Olde
    Reputation: DH40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Cows are not mechanized! They belong here! La la la! I can't hear you!
    We cannot be sold to a slaughterhouse for their profit and are therefore irrelevant. Because of this attitude by 'land managers', and my advancing age, I will ride and build illegal trails out of public view until the Coppers take me down.

  125. #125
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dr Gigi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    363
    Damn, I also rode Crock about 2 weeks ago, and thought Sugar and Tree Frog were great. The last part of Tree Frog had some erosion and needed some work, though. It did look like cows had a dance dance revolution party on Soaring Eagle.

  126. #126
    Over it
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,798
    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    ...I will ride and build illegal trails out of public view until the Coppers take me down in a hail of gunfire (that's the word on the street).
    Fixed. And rep given!

    Idea for a new thread: Places I Don't Need to Ride Once
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice--pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

  127. #127
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    I'm thinking of going this Sunday (Dec 4th). I was there about a month ago and it was pretty good IMO. But it's rained heavily in the past few weeks and I know first hand what it was like earlier this year after the cows trampled it. Has anyone been there this past week or maybe going tomorrow? Please chime in!

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

  128. #128
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    I'm thinking of going this Sunday (Dec 4th). I was there about a month ago and it was pretty good IMO. But it's rained heavily in the past few weeks and I know first hand what it was like earlier this year after the cows trampled it. Has anyone been there this past week or maybe going tomorrow? Please chime in!

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
    Please take a few photos and do a short write up if you go.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  129. #129
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    I'd love to hear how CH is holding up as well. I'd like to find some good east bay trail conditions if they exist anywhere, am staying off Briones for a while (my local park). CH isn't too far from me if it's not too muddy.

  130. #130
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    OK I hit Crockett this afternoon and it was great. The trails were surprisingly dry. There were some pockets of mud, but only a couple.

    The first section of trail from the lot was wet/damp, but not muddy. Nothing sticking to my tires and once I was in the covered sections up to the tunnel it was perfect.

    I took the fire road to the top of Sugar City and that was surprisingly dry, with only minor cow tracks which were already pretty knocked down.

    Sugar City was excellent, but there was one puddle at the very beginning which had two cows tending to right in the middle of the trail; I went around them and didn't encounter any more the rest of the way.

    Tree Frog was equally excellent with only one section that I would say was a little muddy at the bottom towards the end as you are coming out to the stable. That section usually holds onto wetness so it wasn't any worse than it usually is.

    After Tree Frog, I took the fire road back up and I was amazed that the section back to the top of Sugar City was totally rideable. Last Spring this section was a muddy, hoof-y mess, but today it was smooth and barely damp.

    Finally, I took Soaring Eagle back down to the tunnel and again, just minor cow tracks, and IMO, totally normal in terms of roughness. I would say the same as it was the last time I was there at the beginning of Nov.

    Considering the amount of rain we had the past couple weeks I am really surprised it dried out so much.

    Crockett is 100% rideable and 100% fun! Go for it!
    Last edited by bryanus; 12-05-2016 at 11:52 AM.

  131. #131
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    Bryanus, thanks for the update. Now I think I want to reverse my opinion of RIP, a few posts above, and ride it again. Standard over reaction from me. Haha. I do wish the cattle situation would improve long term. The trails out there are such a GREAT start. It seems with that much land, tens of miles could be added. Shame. I will try to hit it up before chance of rain on Thur.

  132. #132
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harry Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,322
    The riders who complain about Crockett conditions probably want trails to look more like what happened to the trail in this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/california-no...d-1027970.html.

  133. #133
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    No, I'd say we would like a bit more thought taken before letting cows destroy newly built singletrack...and also let us come in and fix things without a massive amount of administrative hassles. This wasn't trail sanitization done on purpose by the land manager, this was trail destruction done by cows who could have been better managed on the property....imo.

    I am hoping to get back out on CH this week, glad to hear it isn't too muddy. I still like it even after cow damage....

  134. #134
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    I posted a few [warning: boring!] videos of my ride yesterday. Keep the volume off, it's a windstorm:

    Sugar City: https://youtu.be/zaE9VHrxTnc
    Tree Frog: https://youtu.be/F2tOCPSaX1M
    Soaring Eagle: https://youtu.be/sUhmCfPm9DM
    Back to Lot: https://youtu.be/ajYSqpQ98Es

  135. #135
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Thanks, the videos tell the tale! I'll be riding there maybe this afternoon if it warms back up. I think what you are calling sky trail is soaring eagle...which is still pretty bumpy from the cows, but at least is rideable.

  136. #136
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I think what you are calling sky trail is soaring eagle...which is still pretty bumpy from the cows, but at least is rideable.
    Ahh, yes, that's Soaring Eagle. Sky Trail was in my head for some reason. Corrected! It's bumpy, but pretty "normal" for that trail from my experience. Nothing compared to how trashed it was from the cows last Spring, which took a pretty long time to get knocked down and rideable again.

  137. #137
    Hella Olde
    Reputation: DH40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,538
    Thanks for posting - I could get my friend in Richmond out there and back into the game, hopefully. What are the preferred routes to the top?



    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    I posted a few [warning: boring!] videos of my ride yesterday. Keep the volume off, it's a windstorm:




    Sugar City: https://youtu.be/zaE9VHrxTnc
    Tree Frog: https://youtu.be/F2tOCPSaX1M
    Soaring Eagle: https://youtu.be/sUhmCfPm9DM
    Back to Lot: https://youtu.be/ajYSqpQ98Es

  138. #138
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Thanks for posting - I could get my friend in Richmond out there and back into the game, hopefully. What are the preferred routes to the top?
    From the parking lot gate, take the left-hand trail. You will come to a fairly steep climb. Climb it and then you will see a trail off to the right. Take that all the way to the top. If you watch my "Back to Lot" video, that trail is the same one, but I am coming down it.

    When you reach the top after the last bit of climb, take a right and continue a short climb to the tunnel. Cross through the tunnel. Once you exit the tunnel you can either take the fire road to the left or "Soaring Eagle" to the right. I tend to take the fire road to save some energy for Soaring Eagle on the way back.

    Either one will get you to the top of Sugar City and the livestock feeding/watering platform. The entrance to Sugar City will be visible as a fenced area/gate. They added a neat ramp to enter the trail without having to get off your bike; you can just roll into it.

    Have fun!

  139. #139
    Hella Olde
    Reputation: DH40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,538
    Thanks! I've been riding with the cows in Wildcat Cyn lately nursing a broken arm, and this looks like the kind of mellow EB spot I need for a few more weeks.

  140. #140
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    If you want to do all the good trails at CH, when you get to the bottom of Sugar City, take the fire road to the left through the valley, and look for a beat up old cattle area on the left..that singletrack on the left is called Tree Frog. It winds its way for a couple of miles up to another peak, and is a blast to descend.

    Speaking of which, I decided to ride CH this afternoon. The above descriptions of trail conditions are all accurate. Trails are in very good shape from a mud standpoint. Cows have been on everything except for that first climb to the tunnel. Sugar city isn't as smooth as it was, but it is still good. One bad spot right near the top, and the bottom section that holds water has been completely destroyed by cows. You have to walk or ride around it now, but no big deal. Tree frog has also seen cows, but while bumpier than it used to be, it isn't bad. Lots of leaves in spots in the woods however, just be careful. As for soaring eagle, it isn't as smooth as it used to be, but it is a lot better than it was this summer.

    So all in all (at least until it rains again Wednesday), CH is pretty decent right now...bumpier yes but still a ton of fun..at least until the cows do their thing again.

  141. #141
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bryanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    340
    Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride.

    Sent from my OnePlus 3 using Tapatalk

  142. #142
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    [QUOTE=bryanus;12997140]Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride]

    Yeah, I almost went there today, But not without a report, anyone? I got stuck doing a road ride. They closed road for 20 min to bulldoze some mud, and I got stuck in a group of 20 roadies when they let us through. I definitely like Mt Bike people better.

  143. #143
    Trail Gnome
    Reputation: Dark Meat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,201
    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride.

    Sent from my OnePlus 3 using Tapatalk
    I'm going to check it out on Tuesday...got rain coming after that though.

  144. #144
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    I fully admit to being a mud weeny, but if you are having problems doing road rides, clearly the answer is to stay off the trails for an extended period. I ride CH a lot, and can imagine all the places that hold water there...so I'm not doing any dirt riding in the east bay for quite a while, the trails will be damaged by those who do imo.

  145. #145
    Trail Gnome
    Reputation: Dark Meat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,201
    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I fully admit to being a mud weeny, but if you are having problems doing road rides, clearly the answer is to stay off the trails for an extended period. I ride CH a lot, and can imagine all the places that hold water there...so I'm not doing any dirt riding in the east bay for quite a while, the trails will be damaged by those who do imo.
    Well then...it looks like I won't check out Crockett Hills on Tuesday. Thanks for the heads up

  146. #146
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    I bet it's still slop. The cow holes hold water and the clay takes a while to dry out. Haven't been up there since my last post, so YMMV.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  147. #147
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    We should lurk around on hiker or equestrian forums to see if they discuss Crocket Hills conditions. It's just a little far from my house to drive there, ride a little bit, only to be skunked by too much mud (trail damaging mud, I'm cool with mud on me). I really hope that during the end of winter, we ride that place at the right time to smooth out the hoof marks. Damn cows can't read "no hoof prints" sign

  148. #148
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harry Mackenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,322
    Will there be trail work anytime soon? I'd like to help out if anyone does.

  149. #149
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,263
    Go o Meetup.com ,look for the Bicycle trails council of the east bay . When we do a trail work day ,it will be posted there. I don't know of anything coming soon.

  150. #150
    Trail Gnome
    Reputation: Dark Meat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,201
    So, I stopped at Crockett Hills today...hiking out of the parking lot was a chore; that place is slippery. I can't imagine it will be rideable before June

  151. #151
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057

    Every hoof print is a mini waterfall I guess. Wasted day.

    1,000,000 little waterfalls destroying the trail 5 inches at a time.Attachment 1121094

  152. #152
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    What you dont see, is the entire grassy area is also post holed. Those cows are very destructive up there. What a shame. Trails on north side of Cummings Skyway are pretty nice, considering all the rain. Seems like a small amount of trail meassaging would get the water off of Soaring Eagle, but I will never volunteer up there until they fence off that trail from cows. Why do ranchers get to have that land? And I live in a tiny apt. Damn.

  153. #153
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    The bikes aren't helping either. That place needs a lot of time to dry out, not just a couple of days...imo.

  154. #154
    Hoolie Ghoulie on Strava.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3,057
    I was actually thinking about that alot today, and i think the bikes do help flatten the hoof holes, especially the 2 inch bumps. I was thinking how great it would work to have 100 people on bikes steam roll those singletrack trails. Of course its a bad idea where i took my photo, thats why I commented "...small amount of trail messaging would get water off of Soaring Eagle." Bikes are the least of the problem. I hope somebody comments on Sugar City. Some guys were riding there, but I stayed out of the mud after the picnic table.

  155. #155
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    Wasn't trying to call you out, and it's an individual decision of course. For me, I'm a mud weeny and will stay off dirt trails completely for a while now...just too wet imo. As far as CH goes, I hear what you are saying..it's like we need a one foot wide steam roller to go through some of the CH trails while soft (maybe not while they are flowing) and flatten out some of the cow damage. I've been on my mtn bike once in 2017..

  156. #156
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    Went out yesterday because my buddy is a new rider, lives in Martinez, and wanted to check it out. Man... what a wreck. Poison oak infestations abound, especially on Tree Frog, where there's also a couple large downed trees.

    Sugar city is overgrown, cow chopped, and has a couple spots with "eat your front tire mud".

    The lower Edwards loop trail is the best trail there right now. If I were to return, I'd turn around at the tunnel and just do laps. Everything else is crap, and will remain that way, unless something changes with their grazing management.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  157. #157
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Anyone ride Crockett Hills recently? Is it still a mess?
    Thanks!

  158. #158
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    Gonna guess everything about my post above is just worse, and add ticks.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  159. #159
    mtbr member
    Reputation: RexBanner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    Anyone ride Crockett Hills recently? Is it still a mess?
    Thanks!
    I went for a quick hike around there with my girlfriend on Saturday. I was going to show her at least the beginning of Sugar City to comment on how it was once a gem of a trail for us in the deep East Bay, but it was so overgrown you couldn't even see where the trail began after the cow bridge/entrance.

    There was evidence of work on Soaring Eagle as the grass had been trimmed back and any of the cow tramplings/ruts had been "rototilled" out (hopefully that's a work in progress, because it was hard to find traction in spots with running shoes, let alone an MTB tire).

    Man, what a difference from two years ago:

    New Mountain Bike Friendly Multi-Use Trails at Crockett Hills Regional Park

  160. #160
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    Everyone needs to chill the f -out.
    1) The land is only undeveloped because of the terms of the owners who deeded it to EBRPD. It is historically ranch land and you get to ride it by their generosity.The rancher who runs all the cattle is a super cool guy, btw.
    2) The cows do screw it up and good when we have heavy rain. This year is the worst ...maybe ever. Deal with it . I do. You have to pick the right trails and stay out of the valleys. Cross drainage is an issue and makes some climbs a challenge.
    3) The cows damage it all up when wet and once dry the knock down the high spots making it better again. Patience.
    4) Ride a FS bike and leave it in descend, all the cow postholes just add a little challenge to maintaining speed.
    When you can do something about the dbag snowflakes with their purse sized dogs and the angry silvertails walking around like zombies let me know.

  161. #161
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044

    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!

    This will likely be the outcome for the region 4 RTMP trail additions in Marin. We will hear to no end about how great all the new trails are and x number of miles added. But after the first winter the reality of cattle and rain added to the equation will settle in.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  162. #162
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Is that generosity, or getting to ranch on land without paying taxes for it?

  163. #163
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.

  164. #164
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Wow!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  165. #165
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,159
    Chasejj, always defending the ranchers, telling us we have to deal with crap trails and that we're lucky we have anything at all to ride on, lol
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  166. #166
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,325
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.
    While I harbor no resentment against ranchers - I think this thread is clear. The MTB community has organized to build trails in Crocket - and the cows ruined them.

    This is like a sysyphusian struggle. We could go on forever rebuilding trails and having the cows destroy them.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  167. #167
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
    Reputation: alexbn921's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,306
    It's the same at Briones park. All the parks in the area have been hit hard. Add cows to wet trails and they just get destroyed. I understand that we share these areas and have no problems doing so. I wish that the cows would be keep off sensitive areas when the mud is 1 foot deep. FYI cows never smooth out trails, even dry ones get post holed.

  168. #168
    Air Pirate
    Reputation: Bokchoicowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    2,037
    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  169. #169
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.
    If they are not paying taxes on it, it is our land. Original owners had been compensated.

  170. #170
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    534
    I "deal with it" by riding elsewhere. And that's really too bad for Crockett Hills, City Of Crockett and any other entity that benefited from the influx of Mt. Bikers

  171. #171
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
    I don't care about a few bumps. What is annoying is hearing the same people who defend ranching complain about "erosion" from mountain bikes.

    After many orienteering races in local parks I got to see this away from bike trails - some areas are pulverized.

  172. #172
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
    Reputation: alexbn921's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,306
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
    Have you seen the pictures? I don't need buff single track and enjoy challenging terrain. This is constant unrelenting chatter. Going down will knock the fillings out of your teeth. Trying to ride up 20% grades that have been destroyed is almost impossible. A lot of time and effort was put into these trail. It's sad to see them destroyed.

  173. #173
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Seems to me the real issue is that the land manager won't allow anyone to work on the trails after they have been trashed.

    Since the community is effectively neutered and doesn't have a similar trail crew to MBoSC or TAMBA, they can't offer to help.

    The same situation exists in Marin County.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  174. #174
    Captain One Lung Administrator
    Reputation: JCWages's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    4,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    If they are not paying taxes on it, it is our land. Original owners had been compensated.
    That's not how it works...

  175. #175
    mtb'er
    Reputation: Empty_Beer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,161
    Meanwhile... have you guys seen the destruction the horse wagon wheels did on the Oat Hill Mine Trail in Napa??? You could lose fillings going down that... and most people I know have to walk up it. Stupid wagons...

  176. #176
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    That's not how it works...
    The way it works in the east bay is:
    - district buys ranches
    - ranchers secure leases
    - if ranchers don't get leases, others won't sell to park district
    - park district keeps issuing leases, despite the obvious damage, to make sure they can keep buying more ranch land
    - rinse repeat

    Unofficially, district is not a fan of cows on its land but puts up with it due to above.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  177. #177
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    1st thing , I guess I am not surprised that most sentiments seem to role quickly to the feeling that anyone is entitled to a specified trail condition.
    News flash . You aren't . We just went through the muddiest season maybe ever. Stop whining.
    #2- No cows and horses and you are back to driving to Marin to deal with those a-holes. No thanks.
    #3-Not sure of the tax situation and it does not ENTITLE you to anything regardless.
    #4- I spoke with some of the people working on maintenance when I was at Briones recently. They are well aware of the areas needing attention and are scheduling work, but it pretty much confined to maintaining vehicle access throughout the park. So if it is not a dbl track . I seriously doubt anyone will touch it.

  178. #178
    AKD
    AKD is offline
    Getting hillier every day
    Reputation: AKD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,276
    Seems like BTCEB should be put in contact with the land manager to arrange a work day on the non-doubletrack. Something you can do, chasejj?

  179. #179
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
    Reputation: alexbn921's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,306
    The point isn't entitlement! The point is that with some forethought a lot of the damage could have been avoided. We are taking about 1000's of man hours to fix. We are all trying to share these public lands. I don't ride like an ass hat skidding around every corner and yelling STRAVA! Cows, horses, bikes and even hikers should avoid the wet trails. I did my part, did you?

  180. #180
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    834
    nobody is talking about entitlement.

    except maybe on the rancher's part.

    you see, when bikes and trail work are prohibited because they will cause 'environmental damage', but cattle is allowed because of money or history or something, we just call ********.

    either environmental damage is important, in which case you'd restrict cattle.

    or it's not, in which case you'd not restrict bikes.

    there of course may be seasonal concerns or other reasons for restrictions, but those still apply to both classes of users. and this has nothing to do with how nice or mean the rancher is.

  181. #181
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Seems like BTCEB should be put in contact with the land manager to arrange a work day on the non-doubletrack. Something you can do, chasejj?
    He's an expert, at everything except achieving something positive for the off road cycling community.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  182. #182
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    I stayed
    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    The point isn't entitlement! The point is that with some forethought a lot of the damage could have been avoided. We are taking about 1000's of man hours to fix. We are all trying to share these public lands. I don't ride like an ass hat skidding around every corner and yelling STRAVA! Cows, horses, bikes and even hikers should avoid the wet trails. I did my part, did you?
    I seriously doubt 90% of the trails have any MTB generated damage even in mud.The cows pretty much obliterate anything we can do. The singletrack I ride in Briones is unaffected by any users or cows. Most of it stays dry even after heavy rains as it is steep.
    I often wonder why I have never seen any effort to construct some new trails (official) on Briones. The terrain would definitely provide some fun vertical runs. I have never seen a club off road ride either. Need an organization of volunteers. I'm out of the loop on club stuff , not much of a club oriented person. I would participate if a work plan was put together. Could probably get some HS football players to donate time as well.

  183. #183
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
    Reputation: alexbn921's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,306
    Hey Chase. There has been club rides in Briones. It has been a couple years and the last one I went to was a horse/bike ride. The idea was to interact with this user group. There is a dedicated group that works hard maintaining the trails in Briones. This is an illegal activity even if it benefits the park and all user groups. Most trails have been effected by the cows and time has been invested to fix it. I wish that legally constructed trails for mountain bikes was a possibility, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

  184. #184
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    Quote Originally Posted by mbmtb View Post
    nobody is talking about entitlement.


    except maybe on the rancher's part.

    you see, when bikes and trail work are prohibited because they will cause 'environmental damage', but cattle is allowed because of money or history or something, we just call ********.

    either environmental damage is important, in which case you'd restrict cattle.

    or it's not, in which case you'd not restrict bikes.

    there of course may be seasonal concerns or other reasons for restrictions, but those still apply to both classes of users. and this has nothing to do with how nice or mean the rancher is.
    You clearly do not understand the business relationship that allows you to ride on these lands nor the ranching business.
    The beauty of this area is its lack of controls and management. The minute you demand more control and controls ugly cousin (LE) you creep into the Marin model of BS.
    Sounds like you'd like that. Be careful for what you wish for, you just may get it.
    You guys realize that once it dries out and gets the high edges knocked down , it's all good. I've been riding these trails for 25 years. It's just a seasonal thing.

  185. #185
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,429
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    That's not how it works...
    Property is public, what they have is a long term contract to use it. It is not unreasonable to expect them to try to play nice with others.

    Though obviously a bigger problem is the current public landowner not caring about our use case that much. Unrelated to any cows.

  186. #186
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hiphopopotamus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    183
    Is Hilride still involved in the project?

    I know it's been a wet winter, but it sounds like this place could use some sort of sustainability audit. Suggestions for improving the drainage would be good, since I don't think much can be done about the cows.

  187. #187
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    Quote Originally Posted by hiphopopotamus View Post
    Is Hilride still involved in the project?

    I know it's been a wet winter, but it sounds like this place could use some sort of sustainability audit. Suggestions for improving the drainage would be good, since I don't think much can be done about the cows.
    Drainage=Money
    No money in the pot with all the BS that JB funds with my taxes and all the cheapskates parking offsite to avoid the $3 fee.

  188. #188
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    834
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You clearly do not understand the business relationship that allows you to ride on these lands nor the ranching business.
    The beauty of this area is its lack of controls and management. The minute you demand more control and controls ugly cousin (LE) you creep into the Marin model of BS.
    Sounds like you'd like that.
    No, I want less controls, not more.
    Simple rule: if cattle are allowed to do something, so are humans.

  189. #189
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    Drainage=Money
    No money in the pot with all the BS that JB funds with my taxes and all the cheapskates parking offsite to avoid the $3 fee.
    With measure ww, there us plenty of money for improvements. User fees are a tiny fraction of park budget.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  190. #190
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    [QUOTE=zorg;13162901]With measure ww, there us plenty of money for improvements. User fees are a tiny fraction of park budget.

    Sent from my LG

    Have you seen the culvert failures and washouts this season?. Not to mention the drainage ruts and rock needed to repair the fireroads? That is lots of money. Probably in the $500K range just in areas of Briones I've seen.
    Fireroad access takes precedence.

  191. #191
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    517
    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Thanks for posting photos. Really brings home the issue here. Looks like the weather is about to turn sunny and really harden all those ruts. Bad news.
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.

  192. #192
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.
    Man I had no idea there were such trail maintenance experts here. I guess next winter I'll just have the cows walk all over the flow trail at Tamaracho and call it done. Problem solved!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  193. #193
    mtbr member
    Reputation: testa di cazzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.
    yes, cattle are great for trails. I say CalFire should start running cattle out at Demo and would offer big improvements to the trail system.

  194. #194
    Ride More - Suffer Less
    Reputation: TraxFactory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Posts
    2,333
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    It is a process.

    As much as it sucks its pretty much true for EBMUD riding areas...The cows do eventually knock it down, sometimes better sometimes worse.

    We will even jump in on certain sections and fill in the really bad post holes when things start firming up, helps alot.

    Best way to keep wandering cows off the trail is to keep em steep.

  195. #195
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,912
    I've been in Briones a lot lately, and some of the fire roads are in pretty bad shape...a couple look like scale models of the grand canyon from water erosion. The cattle damage seems about like normal, but as others have said it is worse because of the water damage as well. I wouldn't know about the singltrack since none of it is bike legal.

    As for CH, I think what most are complaining about is that the first year with the new trails, they were just amazing. Basically everything you could want out of the east bay. Now, and maybe it was wishful thinking that they would stay that way, it seems that they are never going back anywhere near where they were. We had real swoopy and fast singletrack, and now the best we can hope for is knocked down cattle posts. That's a bummer as far as I am concerned. That being said, I rode CH all last year (after it dried) and didn't mind the bumpiness too much. I haven't headed there yet this season given all the bad things I am hearing. Sounds like it just isn't ready yet, at least for me...and it needs a good weed whacking at some point. It does get badly overgrown, and this winter must be even worse in that regards. I'll ride the bumps when I can see the trail.

  196. #196
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Truckee29's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    534
    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    *snip*
    I pointed that out but the mods never followed through. Perhaps they could make a change now? The name calling should be a cause as well

  197. #197
    mtbr member
    Reputation: P51mech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    32
    Just an FYI EBRPD does not have a trail crew of any sort. They only have a road crew. All the funding goes to maintaining roads and that is that. As for the cattle; the original terms of the land acquisition that goes way back before the mountain bike was ever invented. It's a legally binding contract that has no wording for our user group whatsoever. You can fight, kick, and scream all you want that contract is only about 50 years into a 100 year contract. The only thing we can do is go back and fix the damage each year that the cattle cause.

    The MTB groups in the east bay need to hold more fundraisers and go buy a SWECO and not count on EB Parks to do it for them. Holding a once a year fundraiser sure as hell isn't going to cut it. The folks of in Downieville have figured it out and raffle off two high end bikes a year that are donated. The last one netted $75k for trail projects! Do you see that kind of fundraising going on the the bay area?! No! Sad because I see a lot of $10k bikes strapped to a lot of high end cars here. All the rad spots like Ashland, Downiville, Truckee, and other places like them the park service provides the land to build the trails, and the stewardships provide the funding to construct the trails and maintain them.

    BTCEB has their heart in the right place, but I feel that they need to grow into a larger group and need to catch up when it comes to fundraising and have a better presence in the internet. The group also has more than a few purest that certainly didn't make me and my family feel very welcome all because I got labeled as a downhiller. Even though 90% of the DH riding I do is in a bike park.

  198. #198
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    A trail crew should be the number one concern of every advocacy group in the area. This is the cornerstone of every successful trail advocacy group in North America. Instead we have a system of zero support and a few token days of trail work a year.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  199. #199
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    9,757
    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Just an FYI EBRPD does not have a trail crew of any sort. They only have a road crew. All the funding goes to maintaining roads and that is that. As for the cattle; the original terms of the land acquisition that goes way back before the mountain bike was ever invented. It's a legally binding contract that has no wording for our user group whatsoever. You can fight, kick, and scream all you want that contract is only about 50 years into a 100 year contract. The only thing we can do is go back and fix the damage each year that the cattle cause.

    The MTB groups in the east bay need to hold more fundraisers and go buy a SWECO and not count on EB Parks to do it for them. Holding a once a year fundraiser sure as hell isn't going to cut it. The folks of in Downieville have figured it out and raffle off two high end bikes a year that are donated. The last one netted $75k for trail projects! Do you see that kind of fundraising going on the the bay area?! No! Sad because I see a lot of $10k bikes strapped to a lot of high end cars here.
    Road and trail crew is down 2 operators right now and there is some project backlog to go through.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  200. #200
    I'm really diggin it!
    Reputation: Davey Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,044
    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Road and trail crew is down 2 operators right now and there is some project backlog to go through.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    You can't rely on the land managers to do it for you. A trail crew composed of cyclists is the only way to develop cycling friendly trails.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Trail Closure at Crockett Hills. Don't Panic! NEW MAP!
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-22-2019, 08:25 PM
  2. Bleeping Illegal trail riding at Crockett Hills
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 03-31-2015, 08:43 AM
  3. iPhone found on Crockett Hills Trail
    By oparks in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-29-2015, 07:50 PM
  4. Trail Work at Crockett Hills Saturday February 28th
    By omanwurmi in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 03-26-2015, 06:35 PM
  5. BTCEB Trail work at Crockett Hills
    By Berkeley Mike in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 11-08-2011, 10:07 PM

Members who have read this thread: 186

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.