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  1. #1501
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    I am happy with my 2x10 setup, definitely not losing a front derailleur anytime soon.

    I like biking from home to the trails, avoids losing pedal time to driving, garage out, garage in. Typical ride takes Hy 9 from saratoga to gap trails, 2500ft mild climb on asphalt for a long downhill singletrack as reward, or near flat paved bike 'trails' or roads to reach dirt. If anything, I find myself needing more teeth in the front chainring, limits speed on regular streets. As far as range, my 2x10 exceeds any 1x I've seen.

    I am not a gearhead, things like Di2 are just silly for me, imagine worrying about 'charging' your bike, that one last thing that is always ready to go, no docking station, wires to connect. It takes part of the fun and skills away from you, too - predicting the terrain ahead and shifting accordingly is part of the fun for me.

    I don't shift the front often, I basically ride in "street" or "trail" modes, chain long enough to almost accomodate full cross, large cog x large chainring (rear derailler complaining noise serves as warning...)

    Bike came with 24-38 front, 11-36 rear, now trying with 11-42 rear (6:1 ratio), but likely going back to original, as extra granny power just makes me lazier at the cost of shifting complications, goat link or extra long B screw.

    2 x 10 or more is my preference for my "one bike rides it all" approach.

  2. #1502
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    1x11...I'm over it for hills

    One of the greatest proponents of Di2, pivot bikes, is abandoning it on their new bikes.
    Last edited by fc; 05-16-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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  3. #1503
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    2x is on the ropes too. No one is buying new.
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  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    2x is on the ropes too. No one is buying new.
    Is no one buying because manufacturers aren't offering it anymore? What percentage of 2018 MTBs models are 2x and 1x?
    Earlier in the thread, the Eagle cassette was praised as a wonder of design and manufacturing. I mentioned the Design2Part trade show as a place to learn about manufacturing technologies. The Santa Clara show is next week, 23-24 May. Anyone interested in seeing what types of processes are out there should attend. It's during the middle of the week but it's free. Some people have swag. There's usually a shop with a laser engraver that will burn whatever you want into a pen. And if I remember correctly, their booth babe ain't too bad lookin'.
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  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by gddyap View Post
    Is no one buying because manufacturers aren't offering it anymore?
    Probably a bit of "Which comes first? The chicken or the egg?"

    The greatest emphasis and growth [spending] in the mountain bike market has been in the "enduro[ish] segment. Rides are tending to be shorter, rougher and have less varied terrain than "classic" ride profiles, favoring 1x drive trains. Manufacturers, recognizing and responding to this trend, produce and [heavily] promote bikes and drivetrains that cater to this segment of the mountain bike market.

    And having acknowledged that, I believe a 2x10 STILL, allows the greatest variety of terrain to be negotiated, with greater flexibility. Simply put, it amounts to having a range of nine climbing gears in the small chainring, and nine descending or level to rolling gears in the large chainring.

    Honestly, if you didn't know the length, climbing/descending, trail or weather conditions you would encounter in an all or multi-day ride, would you choose a 1x or 2x set up?

    Other views and results may [and most likely will] vary.
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  6. #1506
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    2x is on the ropes too. No one is buying new.
    It is cheaper to manufacture and assembly while being sold at a premium as latest and greatest.

    Profit. The greatest motivator.

  7. #1507
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by gddyap View Post
    Is no one buying because manufacturers aren't offering it anymore? What percentage of 2018 MTBs models are 2x and 1x?
    Earlier in the thread, the Eagle cassette was praised as a wonder of design and manufacturing. I mentioned the Design2Part trade show as a place to learn about manufacturing technologies. The Santa Clara show is next week, 23-24 May. Anyone interested in seeing what types of processes are out there should attend. It's during the middle of the week but it's free. Some people have swag. There's usually a shop with a laser engraver that will burn whatever you want into a pen. And if I remember correctly, their booth babe ain't too bad lookin'.
    This is a good question. I'm pretty sure the answer is because few want it now.

    My good data point is Pivot Cycles, the greatest ally of 2x and Di2. When they created the Pivot Switchblade, they made it 2x compatible and had to jump through hoops (157 hub) to make it happen with plus tires and short stays.

    We asked why so adamant on 2x compatibility and they said they were still seeing 50/50 sales 1x vs 2x on, specially on the Mach 4. Based on the past sales, they thought folks still wanted 2x.

    That was two years ago. Then they said last year, 2x sales dropped to below 10% even though that option was still available on bikes.

    It's not preferred anymore. It'll always exist but not in majority for new sales of mtbs.
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  8. #1508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is cheaper to manufacture and assembly while being sold at a premium as latest and greatest.

    Profit. The greatest motivator.
    Perhaps.

    Only $310 though for the whole NX groupset

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  9. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by gddyap View Post
    Is no one buying because manufacturers aren't offering it anymore? What percentage of 2018 MTBs models are 2x and 1x?
    Earlier in the thread, the Eagle cassette was praised as a wonder of design and manufacturing. I mentioned the Design2Part trade show as a place to learn about manufacturing technologies. The Santa Clara show is next week, 23-24 May. Anyone interested in seeing what types of processes are out there should attend. It's during the middle of the week but it's free. Some people have swag. There's usually a shop with a laser engraver that will burn whatever you want into a pen. And if I remember correctly, their booth babe ain't too bad lookin'.

    I just started a PT job at an LBS that carries Scott. Scott is Swiss and Euros are clinging to 2X because, well because a lot of Euros are weird. Scott specs 2X on a lot of bikes, but they don't sell, so the shop doesn't order them in. I see 2X on commuting bikes and older MTBs, but on a new bike everyone I know would scratch their head and roll their eyes. We will see what Shimano 12 speed looks like soon, but I believe the front derailleur on MTBs does not have a future.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  10. #1510
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    why would anyone want the PITA and extra weight of a front derailleur? You just as large of a gear range with a 1x setup, and if you are spinning out of gears just get a bigger chainring, if your granny gear isnt easy enough, get a bigger cog out back. Pretty simple IMO.

    Also, its amazing how quickly you get stronger when forced to deal with a big cog upront. a 2x system is just plain unneccessary. For a long multi-day ride you will place a premium on reliablity... something a front derailleur is NOT known for.

  11. #1511
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    1x popularity increasing and will turn into the only choice for pedal bikes.. don't have enough gears to get up that hill? How about an ebike!

    I kid, but only a little bit. You can get up a steep ass hill in 2x or ebike (without walking), the industry is moving to the later.

    I think californiagrown is trolling...?
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  12. #1512
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    I agree with 1x only becoming more popular. My next bike will only be considered if 1x. Honestly, most people will be able to stay within their available gear ratios with smart chainring and rear cassette / cog selection for the specific type of riding they plan on doing.

    I currently ride a triple, but have demo'd and rented 1x a few times and each time I loved the simplicity of it. While it felt "different" the first few times, I was amazed by how quickly my brain and body adapted to the new ratios and only thinking in terms easier or harder as a single variable made the ride more enjoyable.

    I am sold on it as the future!

  13. #1513
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    You can get a screaming deal on a 2x now, then convert it to a 1x. Just did this for my daughter's bike.

  14. #1514
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    If I would drive to the trails and do singletrack only, or if I had 5 bikes in the garage, one for each purpose, 1x with a 5:1 ratio would certainly be enough.

    My need for 2x is to get longer ratios for the road part (getting to trails from my house). I rarely need to shift the front, so I mostly ride two different 1x systems.

    3x is definitely obsolete with modern cassettes, but 1x not quite there for my use just yet. Maybe when the 10-66 cassette comes around...

  15. #1515
    fc
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    1x11...I'm over it for hills

    Quote Originally Posted by roughster View Post
    I agree with 1x only becoming more popular. My next bike will only be considered if 1x. Honestly, most people will be able to stay within their available gear ratios with smart chainring and rear cassette / cog selection for the specific type of riding they plan on doing.

    I currently ride a triple, but have demo'd and rented 1x a few times and each time I loved the simplicity of it. While it felt "different" the first few times, I was amazed by how quickly my brain and body adapted to the new ratios and only thinking in terms easier or harder as a single variable made the ride more enjoyable.

    I am sold on it as the future!
    Cool insight and perspective.

    I think 1x is more usable for mountain biking and singletrack.
    Last edited by fc; 05-16-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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  16. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    For a long multi-day ride you will place a premium on reliablity... something a front derailleur is NOT known for.
    What? I've never had an issue with a FD in the field with a fleet of 8 bikes in the family and the same with others I have ridden with. What common reliability issues are there with them? I've had issues with rear derailleurs in the field (bent derailleur or hanger), but never in the front. The weight savings is probably over rated a bit as well as people are compensating with the loss of front chain rings by going to huge cogs in the rear.

  17. #1517
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    I was a 3x9 rider for a long time. In fact it was about 12 months ago I moved away from 3x9 to 1x11. In that time period all my bikes except fo r and old road bike are 1x. Granted one is 1x1,but still. With right chainring you can get a very low bottom end and good top end. After much experimenting and a number of calculations I went 1x11 28t with 10-42. Love it. I can spin out the 28x10 at 21+mph, but the time I need that are rare. I can swap to a 34t chainring and solve that. I have in fact done that. The 10-50 cassette in the 1x12 is really enough range to cover my old 3x9 and simply having one chainring to adjust is much simpler. I does not make me faster, but it does feel smoother.

    So my 29er HT had a 1x11 which I moved to my new 2018 Epic, My SC 5010 had a 1x10 which I converted to 2x10, then dual 1x10 (manual shifting of NW chainrings) to a proper 1x11. They work great and I won't be going back to a front derailuer. My road bike is old and there the FD is not a big deal.

    BTW.. I do long climbs, steep climbs, bikepacking, XC racing, Team relay XC racing, endurance races, stage races and some enduro racing.
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  18. #1518
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    I have never had or seen a front derailleur fail in 30+ years of riding. Reliability was never the problem. Chain retention, clearance, weight, complexity, suspension anti squat ratio changes and shared space with dropper remotes are my main problems.
    I use my dropper 10x more than I used my front shifter.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  19. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkman999 View Post
    What? I've never had an issue with a FD in the field with a fleet of 8 bikes in the family and the same with others I have ridden with. What common reliability issues are there with them? I've had issues with rear derailleurs in the field (bent derailleur or hanger), but never in the front. The weight savings is probably over rated a bit as well as people are compensating with the loss of front chain rings by going to huge cogs in the rear.
    i always had issues with it getting out of alignment and not shifting well. If you enjoy having one more piece of finnicky mech that you have to adjust and maintain then go for it. I just do not see ANY benefit it would provide to any of the trails i ride, and i can only see downsides.

  20. #1520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    i always had issues with it getting out of alignment and not shifting well. If you enjoy having one more piece of finnicky mech that you have to adjust and maintain then go for it. I just do not see ANY benefit it would provide to any of the trails i ride, and i can only see downsides.
    I am not sure what you are doing to your front derailleurs, but in a quarter century of riding and dozens of bikes set up, it is almost always set and forget kind of a deal. It works just fine.

    Large range is great.

  21. #1521
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    After a few months and/or a few good crashes the front mech would start to not want to shift, or would shift the chain not all the way so youd get rub, etc. not to mention having to replace the cable and housing every year or so.

    Dont you get as large, or nearly as large of a gear range with a 1x, its just a bigger delta between gears? For me, that doesnt bother me one bit as im usually double or triple shifting up and down everytime i want a gear change with a 1x anyways.

    But i usually ride stuff requiring a steep, long climb to access a steep long descent so maybe it would be more of a hinderance on rolling stuff? I also ride a single speed on the weekday XC trails with my dog so maybe im just used to making due with a minimum of gearing.

  22. #1522
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    Another factor is the dropper lever. The levers of choice today are the shifter style, which prohibits a front shifter at the same location. If I had to choose between a front derailleur or a shifter style dropped lever, no contest I go with the dropper.

    Take for example specialized. They have house brand shifter style dropper levers on their trail and AM bikes for a few years now, which put an end on 2X for that brand, except for speciality bikes or cheap bikes that have no dropper.

  23. #1523
    jms
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew03wbHOHS0
    I can't really relate to his issues with 1x, mainly due to the simple fact that we ride different trails.
    Thanks!
    Great video. I can relate to it, because I like a bike I can ride ANYWHERE.

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    Last edited by jms; 05-17-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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  24. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Great video.

    He doesn't like 1x but has it on all of his bikes?
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  25. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    He doesn't like 1x but has it on all of his bikes?
    Yes, I think so. Using visual aids across all platforms to illustrate his points. Seems pretty thorough to me.
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  26. #1526
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    I don't think there is a right or wrong here. But IMO with Eagle I think we have reached the practical limits of 1x. Works fine when set up carefully, but chainline is bad in the high and low gears. 10t is tiny and best suited for occasional use. And do we want to go bigger than 50t in the rear for the sake of 1x?

    That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if a 1x 9-55 14-speed is on the horizon.

    I very rarely pedal going down, so generally don't need more than 11-42 even in the mountains. But at some point if you want a do-it-all bike for day long grinds, and a pavement or gravel ride home, a front derailleur makes sense to me. I do bolt a 26t inner granny ring on my 1x in the mountains....and it has been used on a few occasions.

  27. #1527
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    Not trying to troll here, but I agree with Californiagrown.

    After switching to 1x on my XC bike, I switched my trail bike, and about a month ago I switched my road bike. For my style of riding, the simplicity of 1x outweighs the negatives. Each bike has significantly different gearing, in light of its purpose.

    The part that really amuses me is that as an engineer, 2x really makes sense to me. There's essentially no weight penalty (as a heavier, wider range cassette is needed in 1x setups), and the jumps between gears can be narrowed, even with a wide overall range. Further, the spread of gearing is optimized for low- and high speed, so good for areas like the Bay Area where most trails are pointed either up or down. All that said, I removed the front derailleurs from all of my bikes because I find the riding experience improves so much. Oh well....

  28. #1528
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    just upgraded from NX 11-42 to GX eagle and I love it! Lighter and smoother.

  29. #1529
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    Quote Originally Posted by infotekt View Post
    just upgraded from NX 11-42 to GX eagle and I love it! Lighter and smoother.
    My GX Eagle shifts just as well as my old 3x10. It is very sensitive to derailleur hanger alignment and B-screw adjustment however. Very happy with it.

  30. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    My GX Eagle shifts just as well as my old 3x10. It is very sensitive to derailleur hanger alignment and B-screw adjustment however. Very happy with it.
    It sure does. I don't miss my front mech at all and I've been riding 3Xwhatever for decades. Great range and with a center-mounted front chainring, I can move the range upward or downward with a very simple chainring swap.. 1X done right

  31. #1531
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    OneUp'ed Shimano 11-42 -> 10-47 for me. This is my latest and it works a charm. Shifts great, medium cage derailleur, lighter than Eagle. You need an X12 freehub, however. Works with Hope and DT Swiss hubs only. $135 for the OneUp kit, and another $85 or so for the freehub.

  32. #1532
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    i drove my 1x11 bike last year 4 weeks in Ohio and St. Louis to mutch shifting for me
    i stay with my Hammershmidt 2x10 at my main bike.
    will see how it goes in 2 weeks at Lake Tahoe

  33. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by killerwolf View Post
    i drove my 1x11 bike last year 4 weeks in Ohio and St. Louis to mutch shifting for me
    i stay with my Hammershmidt 2x10 at my main bike.
    will see how it goes in 2 weeks at Lake Tahoe
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  34. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Hammerwhuuuuuuut?
    Blast from the past.

  35. #1535
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    Anyone switch back to 2x??? Iím about ready to give it a try...

  36. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Anyone switch back to 2x??? Iím about ready to give it a try...
    I never quit using running it
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  37. #1537
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    I also went back to the HS



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  38. #1538
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    First off I apologize for posting in here, since I'm one of those greedy fake Southern California people lol.

    If you do a 1x11 setup, with an 11-50t cassette, and 30t chainring, that's plenty for climbing and you still have at least a mediocre top-end speed for going back to the trailhead. I was thinking of an e-thirteen 9-46t cassette but it's $230 and the Sunrace 11-50t is only $99. Seems more practical, but you could do the e-thirteen and get a higher top-end speed, maybe do 28t instead of 30t.

  39. #1539
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    I have heard (no experience with it) that the 9 is meh at best. Not enough chain wrap. But of course ymmv.

    I have 12 speed Eagle 11-50 and it for sure feels like there are gears in there I don't need. I think an 11 spd 11-50 makes more sense and then you don't have to deal with how finicky Eagle is (which I finally think I have figured out - for the time being).

  40. #1540
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    I've really been enjoying my Oneup'd XT cassette that's 10-47T. It'll set you back about $270 for everything, including a special freehub that only works with DT or Hope hubs, but it's much cheaper than buying Eagle, lighter, and uses a medium cage derailleur.

  41. #1541
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    When I get back on the bike, Iíll need 3x

  42. #1542
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    I have heard (no experience with it) that the 9 is meh at best. Not enough chain wrap. But of course ymmv.

    I have 12 speed Eagle 11-50 and it for sure feels like there are gears in there I don't need. I think an 11 spd 11-50 makes more sense and then you don't have to deal with how finicky Eagle is (which I finally think I have figured out - for the time being).
    I have the 9t on two of my bikes and I interviewed the designers of this cassette. So it's not as efficient as a 12 or a 14 tooth. Neither is a 10t.

    It has more drag. Maybe 5% more than a 10t? But really one is in that gear very, very seldom. Only when you want to crank down a downhill at 30+mph. Soooo. it's not a big deal for most. For a roadie who spends a lot of time pedaling at those speeds, it's more of an issue.
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