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  1. #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Or we can just ride the darn things
    Yes, paralysis by analysis can be a real sickness. But some folks have to spend their own money on their gear.

  2. #1402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I've been using these setups for almost 5 years, I have two original x9 clutch derailleur s going strong (in addition to x01 and XTR). I rebuilt one of the x9 clutches last year, it might have loosened or something, still going strong after all this time. I'd question your b-tension and chain length.
    I agree in general about 1x setups with narrow-wide and clutch derailleurs. I don't remember ever suffering a chain drop on any of my bikes. But, maybe there's something going on with Eagle specifically, particularly on some bikes. Maybe the chain growth of some suspension designs requires more slack in the smallest chainrings. Maybe the longer cage is less stiff and moves laterally more over rougher terrain than previous...

  3. #1403
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    Just remember, in the future you'll look back on this time as when you could still buy human-powered drivetrain parts. Buy all the 1x11 and 1x12 you can for this reason.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  4. #1404
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    I've had way more drops with chain guides. Putting the chain back on is not awesome.
    IPA will save America

  5. #1405
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    Quote Originally Posted by lixxfe View Post
    I agree in general about 1x setups with narrow-wide and clutch derailleurs. I don't remember ever suffering a chain drop on any of my bikes. But, maybe there's something going on with Eagle specifically, particularly on some bikes. Maybe the chain growth of some suspension designs requires more slack in the smallest chainrings. Maybe the longer cage is less stiff and moves laterally more over rougher terrain than previous...
    It's not just the Eagle...my XT 1x11 drops chains from time to time. This was with the old chainring...the new version is kind of a narrow wide knock off; hopefully this one is an improvement?

  6. #1406
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    My chain has never dropped with a 1x10, although I always was careful not to go through chunk stuff on the smallest cogs.

    But sometimes, when I try to accelerate while climbing, the chain has drifted (sorry I that is not the word). I guess it is sign of wear in the chain or casette?

  7. #1407
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I've had way more drops with chain guides. Putting the chain back on is not awesome.
    Yes, the chain would get jammed between the guide and ring, or ring and plate, or frame, etc.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  8. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    It's not just the Eagle...my XT 1x11 drops chains from time to time. This was with the old chainring...the new version is kind of a narrow wide knock off; hopefully this one is an improvement?
    Shimano has resisted many of the recent improvements, only to ultimately (stubbornly?) give in. This should help IMO. I forgot to turn the clutch on today for about 1/4 of my ride, including some big jumps/doubles and the chain didn't come off. Having both the NW and clutch is integral over the long run IME, but the NW goes a long way to keep the chain on.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  9. #1409
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I've had way more drops with chain guides. Putting the chain back on is not awesome.
    Actually happened to me a few times in the days before no drop chainrings, but now with a no drop ring + minimal guide, knock on wood it's a thing of the past. Two years no single drop with this setup, Northstar included.

  10. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yes, the chain would get jammed between the guide and ring, or ring and plate, or frame, etc.
    I've had this happen as well, but found it was due to a worn chainring. Narrow wide chainrings and wave chainrings do wear faster and, in my experience, result in a burst of dropped chains, even with a chain guide.

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  11. #1411
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! gears

    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    We've rode many demo bikes in southern UT with 1x11's and loved them. However, for our new Yeti trail bikes we went 2x10 because of the long climbs in CA. Most of the trails in Moab or Zion areas are short fast steep climbs that you can power through in any lower gear. 1x11 is a dream there. For regions with long climbs and long descents I'm not convinced 1x11 is the way to go.

    So the simple solution is to own at least two $7k bikes rigged appropriately.

    :-)
    Or one Zerode Taniwha with a massive range and no dinner plates on the back

  12. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rembrandt View Post
    Or one Zerode Taniwha with a massive range and no dinner plates on the back
    Tomcat? Poppa??
    IPA will save America

  13. #1413
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    ^^^It might be

  14. #1414
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    Energizer bunny thread

    I'm not sure how this works.

  15. #1415
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    This thread should really be moved to drivetrain....
    I'm the problem....

  16. #1416
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbrdan View Post
    this thread should really be moved to drivetrain....
    lol

  17. #1417
    NRP
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    So, has Squashyo tried an Eagle yet? I wanna know before this thread gets moved.

  18. #1418
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    Yeah let's move it to drivetrain so we can get some input from guys in Kansas.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  19. #1419
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    So, has Squashyo tried an Eagle yet? I wanna know before this thread gets moved.
    I have not. I'd like to but can't afford it. I suppose I could go test ride one but scared I might like it (and the bike it's on) which brings me back to can't afford it. I'm also some what hesitant as the derailleur hangs so low. I still love my 2x Di2 though.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  20. #1420
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    Or we could relocate squashyo to Utah?

  21. #1421
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    Why has this thread not been moved to the proper sub forum? I demand administrative action


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  22. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffsterb View Post
    Why has this thread not been moved to the proper sub forum? I demand administrative action


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    +1 ... I use 1x11 and not only is this in the wrong forum I think it spells disaster! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZVu0alU0I
    Suicide by single speed. Work in progress.

  23. #1423
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    So I rode up over Freel Pass last week. 30t up front, with 11-46 in the rear. If I can make that, I guess 1x11 is working for me

  24. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    So I rode up over Freel Pass last week. 30t up front, with 11-46 in the rear. If I can make that, I guess 1x11 is working for me
    Real men spin 32t


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  25. #1425
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffsterb View Post
    Real men spin 32t
    men who survive spin 28t

  26. #1426
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    Men do not spin. Men mash.

  27. #1427
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    Who cares what 'real men' ride?

    It's all about the rad women.
    IPA will save America

  28. #1428
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    I have not. I'd like to but can't afford it. I suppose I could go test ride one but scared I might like it (and the bike it's on) which brings me back to can't afford it. I'm also some what hesitant as the derailleur hangs so low. I still love my 2x Di2 though.
    Well, after a bunch of Eagle time, it's sadly repeated my history with their 11spd derailleurs. Their clutch does not have the longevity and power of Shimano. SRAM did warranty it, which is awesome (the clutch died after just a month). So, if SRAM would send me a spare to have on the shelf, I'd gladly run Eagle. The cassette is a work of art, incredibly light and the range is awesome. However, chain drops are not okay.

    The LBS said they've seen a boat-load of similar failures. So, I'm back to SRAM 10-42 cassette with Shimano XT derailleur and XTR shifter. E13 cassette would be interesting to try out, but have read some lackluster reviews about shifting performance.

  29. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    Well, after a bunch of Eagle time, it's sadly repeated my history with their 11spd derailleurs. Their clutch does not have the longevity and power of Shimano. SRAM did warranty it, which is awesome (the clutch died after just a month). So, if SRAM would send me a spare to have on the shelf, I'd gladly run Eagle. The cassette is a work of art, incredibly light and the range is awesome. However, chain drops are not okay.

    The LBS said they've seen a boat-load of similar failures. So, I'm back to SRAM 10-42 cassette with Shimano XT derailleur and XTR shifter. E13 cassette would be interesting to try out, but have read some lackluster reviews about shifting performance.
    That's crazy. I've been beating on mine for 7 months without a single issue

  30. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    Well, after a bunch of Eagle time, it's sadly repeated my history with their 11spd derailleurs. Their clutch does not have the longevity and power of Shimano. SRAM did warranty it, which is awesome (the clutch died after just a month). So, if SRAM would send me a spare to have on the shelf, I'd gladly run Eagle. The cassette is a work of art, incredibly light and the range is awesome. However, chain drops are not okay.

    The LBS said they've seen a boat-load of similar failures. So, I'm back to SRAM 10-42 cassette with Shimano XT derailleur and XTR shifter. E13 cassette would be interesting to try out, but have read some lackluster reviews about shifting performance.
    My experience with SRAM in general has been about the same. My last few drive trains with them have been horrible so I went back to Shimano.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  31. #1431
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    I haven't been to the bay area in a few years. Where is the best hill for my 2x10?
    .

    I may not have the best of everything, but I have the best everything that matters.

  32. #1432
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred-da-trog View Post
    I haven't been to the bay area in a few years. Where is the best hill for my 2x10?
    Easy, in trogland !

  33. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred-da-trog View Post
    I haven't been to the bay area in a few years. Where is the best hill for my 2x10?
    NorCal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckee29 View Post
    That's crazy. I've been beating on mine for 7 months without a single issue
    That's awesome. I truly wish the darn thing would stick. Seems like Shimano missed the boat with the XD driver (e.g. hub/cassette integration) and the possible range (10-42 still has more range than the 11-46...with less weight!!!), yet their derailleurs sure are my trusted go-to.

  35. #1435
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    My experience with SRAM in general has been about the same. My last few drive trains with them have been horrible so I went back to Shimano.
    Similar. After riding a test bike for a few months (granted, it had a front chain guide) and having zero issues, I decided to dip my toes back into the water. They got bit.

    My remaining question about the clutch-style derailleurs is: how much do oval rings impact clutch life?

  36. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    My remaining question about the clutch-style derailleurs is: how much do oval rings impact clutch life?
    No Impact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf6fTqaLysg
    I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure.

  37. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crooked Cop View Post
    That's just for Absolute Black though. Other oval brands move the rear der much more than that.
    IPA will save America

  38. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtJunky View Post
    My remaining question about the clutch-style derailleurs is: how much do oval rings impact clutch life?
    Fairly minimal movement. I don't think I've read or heard about anybody wearing out a derailleur from an oval ring. Your derailleur cage will also get pulled forward when the rear suspension compresses.

    This is my Garbaruk oval 30T,


  39. #1439
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Fairly minimal movement. I don't think I've read or heard about anybody wearing out a derailleur from an oval ring. Your derailleur cage will also get pulled forward when the rear suspension compresses.

    This is my Garbaruk oval 30T,
    Damn, how do you make it around the block without that thing exploding.

  40. #1440
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    Some people like Biopace on their single speeds :-D https://www.sheldonbrown.com/biopace.html

  41. #1441
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    Iím really considering Di2 on my next build...the 1x just isnít giving me the gearing I want. It feels like Iím in granny all the time : I want a 34 or 36 up front...but that doesnít work with my legs

  42. #1442
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Iím really considering Di2 on my next build...the 1x just isnít giving me the gearing I want. It feels like Iím in granny all the time : I want a 34 or 36 up front...but that doesnít work with my legs
    Man, you really think about this stuff for a long time!

  43. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Iím really considering Di2 on my next build...the 1x just isnít giving me the gearing I want. It feels like Iím in granny all the time : I want a 34 or 36 up front...but that doesnít work with my legs
    I'm fortunate enough to run a Di2 system on my bestest bike and it is an absolute joy to use, one of the rare instances of my experience living up to the hype of product review journalists hopped up on orange squash. Do I need it? No, but like mrchrispy says, sometimes there is just a simple pleasure in owning a really nice piece of tech, especially when that tech operates flawlessly.

  44. #1444
    NRP
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    How many socks has Squashyo got for this epic thread?

  45. #1445
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    Di2 (2x10 with rear shifter only) is what I want for my next drive-train. I have never tried 1x and I don't want to. For the occasional trip to Tahoe and CO, a 26 granny is mandatory to keep me alive and moving. Unfortunately I'm not the young lightweight rider I once was. For 1x, I'd have to put myself in a setup where I'd constantly be spinning out on flats and downhills and I don't really enjoy the hamster in a wheel feeling.

    I'm currently running a hodgepodge set up of XTR cranks in 2x mode with Blackspire rings up front with an XT cassette/Wolftooth 42 big cog, with XO derailleurs and grip shifters. Chain is XT...I think. This set-up works well for me (except for my 95% success rate of getting my chain to shift down to the small ring up front).

  46. #1446
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    Not surprising the front shifting isn't so reliable. 42 down to 26 is a big drop. Is the front derailleur designed to handle that? (Is ANY front derailleur designed to handle that?)

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  47. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Not surprising the front shifting isn't so reliable. 42 down to 26 is a big drop. Is the front derailleur designed to handle that? (Is ANY front derailleur designed to handle that?)

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
    I think the guy has a 26 granny with a 42 rear...I could be wrong??? I didnít see what the guy had for a big ring up front...but, these posts are often hard to decipher

  48. #1448
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Iím really considering Di2 on my next build...the 1x just isnít giving me the gearing I want. It feels like Iím in granny all the time : I want a 34 or 36 up front...but that doesnít work with my legs
    Why Di2 when you could go 34 or 36 with 1x12?

  49. #1449
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    ^^^The biggest I can handle would be a 32 up front...old man knees

  50. #1450
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikingLA1 View Post
    I'm fortunate enough to run a Di2 system on my bestest bike and it is an absolute joy to use, one of the rare instances of my experience living up to the hype of product review journalists hopped up on orange squash. Do I need it? No, but like mrchrispy says, sometimes there is just a simple pleasure in owning a really nice piece of tech, especially when that tech operates flawlessly.
    How is it possible that you have two red chicklets but, only one post?

  51. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    I think the guy has a 26 granny with a 42 rear...I could be wrong??? I didnít see what the guy had for a big ring up front...but, these posts are often hard to decipher
    Correct, I have a 26/36 up front (or 24/36, can't remember) and a standard XT rear cassette with the 42 Wolftooth. My front derailleur is made for a 3x10 setup, hopefully switching to a 2x10 specific fr derailleur will help. It's not bad, just not perfect.


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  52. #1452
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    Depends on the bike also...

    My 160mm Enduro mule needs the 30t Oval + 11-46 Sunrace combo ^^

    While my 140mm AM HT, is comfortable w/ the 30t Oval + 11-42 SLX/NX (run 2 rear wheels).

    Couldn't/wouldn't go back to 2x if you paid me ;-)

    1x for the masses, 2x or 3x for those extremists at either end.

    'We'll all make it to the top... Some of us, might not make it to the bottom'
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  53. #1453
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Iím really considering Di2 on my next build...the 1x just isnít giving me the gearing I want. It feels like Iím in granny all the time : I want a 34 or 36 up front...but that doesnít work with my legs
    1x11 is rough.

    1x12 is the ticket because 50 tooth rear is a really capable gear. 10t too.

    2x11 has pretty much thrown in the towel so make sure that's what you really want. Di2 is really cool but it has a lot of baggage, specially the presence of a front derailleur. If one is super XC or a doing the Cape Epic stage race, maybe. Bikepacking with heavy loads, yeah.

    But pretty much nobody specs 2x11. Even Shimano is going big on 1x. It just works really well with mountain biking especially now that we have the range.
    IPA will save America

  54. #1454
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    I expect to see XTR 12 speed Di2 at sea otter next week. Hopefully etap eagle too, but i'm not holding my breath.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  55. #1455
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    I've worked on all 3 front derailleurs on the family bikes in the last month or so, and they still have some issues. Every bike my family buys in the future has to be 1x. I'd rather simplify and be doing other stuff than fixing front mechs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    1x11 is rough.
    I hear the partial exception is the e13 plus rear cassette, at least for range, but it is more of a budget option compared to eagle.

  56. #1456
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    The biggest cogs are aluminum on those 12 speed cassettes. How fast do they wear? l understand they can not be replaced separately.

    Is it assumed that those are rarely-used bailout gears? I know most on here say they "never"or "almost never" use their granny gear.

  57. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    The biggest cogs are aluminum on those 12 speed cassettes. How fast do they wear? l understand they can not be replaced separately.

    Is it assumed that those are rarely-used bailout gears? I know most on here say they "never"or "almost never" use their granny gear.
    I use mine all the time. In fact it's my most used gear. The 10 will wear 500% faster as the load is concentrated on fewer teeth. The bigger the gear the slower it wears out.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  58. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    The biggest cogs are aluminum on those 12 speed cassettes. How fast do they wear? l understand they can not be replaced separately.

    Is it assumed that those are rarely-used bailout gears? I know most on here say they "never"or "almost never" use their granny gear.
    Skeggs is my home ride, I use the granny gear all the time! I have 600 miles on my SRAM Eagle GX cassette, still looks like new. I think how well one shifts determines the life of these cassettes.

  59. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    1x11 is rough.

    1x12 is the ticket because 50 tooth rear is a really capable gear. 10t too.

    2x11 has pretty much thrown in the towel so make sure that's what you really want. Di2 is really cool but it has a lot of baggage, specially the presence of a front derailleur. If one is super XC or a doing the Cape Epic stage race, maybe. Bikepacking with heavy loads, yeah.

    But pretty much nobody specs 2x11. Even Shimano is going big on 1x. It just works really well with mountain biking especially now that we have the range.
    The good news is you can get some crazy deals on 2x bikes at the moment. Not too expensive to convert to 1x.

  60. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    1x11 is rough.

    1x12 is the ticket because 50 tooth rear is a really capable gear. 10t too.

    2x11 has pretty much thrown in the towel so make sure that's what you really want. Di2 is really cool but it has a lot of baggage, specially the presence of a front derailleur. If one is super XC or a doing the Cape Epic stage race, maybe. Bikepacking with heavy loads, yeah.

    But pretty much nobody specs 2x11. Even Shimano is going big on 1x. It just works really well with mountain biking especially now that we have the range.
    I donít have an issue with running a front derailleur. Theyíre not hard to adjust either, the problem is chain drop If someone would make a derailleur/chain guide combo of some sort...then we could have reliability and range.
    Realistically, I probably wonít switch back to a 2x system...mainly due to products being phased out...until they become popular again

  61. #1461
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    I run a blackspire twinty on my 2x bike. No more chain drops, and you get a bash guard

  62. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    But pretty much nobody specs 2x11. Even Shimano is going big on 1x. It just works really well with mountain biking especially now that we have the range.
    What a shame.
    2x10 and 2x11 with an 11/40 work extremely well, are more durable, have better chain lines, and outside of the spendiest component groups have WAY lighter cassettes [rotating mass on the rear wheel] and better range.
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  63. #1463
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    How is a 2x11 setup more durable than a 1x11?

    They both use the same wear parts - 11 speed chains, rings, and cassettes. Maybe the load being spread over two chain rings vs one, but that isn't that big a deal, really. With my 2x road bike, I still replace the chains, cassettes, and rings at about the frequency that I do with my 1x bikes. Rings are typically more expensive for the 2x setup too - I buy Shimano because I like rings that shift well - with 1x rings, I haven't really noticed a difference between Wolftooth and Raceface. Raceface rings are half the price of Wolftooth. For an Ultegra crankset, a big Shimano ring is considerably more expensive - almost worth just buying a new crankset. At least for XT, it isn't so bad - but still more than basic Raceface 1x ring.

    Chain line is really only marginally improved with a 2x, especially if you are paying attention to your setup - matching the right cranks with the right hub spacing with the right chain ring. In an ideal 1x setup, the "perfect chain line" spot should be dead center the cassette, and then moving 5 cogs either direction isn't putting anymore stress on the chain than doing the same with a 2x. Quite a few 1x rings are also offset a few mm to help with this too. Even then, that is assuming that whoever is riding isn't cross-chaining all the time - which will kill all wear parts more quickly than any properly setup 1x sytem.

    I don't think an XT 11-40 is considerably lighter than an 11-42 or 11-46 either. They are almost the same cassette, right up to the last 4 cogs. Shimano says the 11-42 weighs 23 grams more than the 11-40, and the 11-46 is 29 grams more - I wouldn't notice that difference at the rim, let alone at the hub.

    I get that it has more range, but that is about the only major advantage I can see of 2x11 over 1x11. For touring or big folks, sure, 2x11 all day, if they need the gears. But for me, the simplicity of 1x outweighs the gaps in my range.

  64. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Flo View Post
    I just switched to 1x11 and so far am loving it with 30t. I did not realize how much of a distraction the front derailleur was until I ditched it. For rolling terrain, it is easy to shift up or down four gears at once and more worry-free than the 2x10 design. The 2x10 is still a great design for increased range and top end speed though. I have this on a trail bike, on which if I am spun out in the top gear I am probably going too fast anyhow.

    I don't use the granny much but it is still a necessity on steep climbs (like yesterday up Manzanita FR in Marin).
    No distraction with DI2 XT syncro shift. Awesome!

  65. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdexpress View Post
    No distraction with DI2 XT syncro shift. Awesome!
    Di2 Syncro is pretty darn amazing tech. Just works sooo well. Just needs to be programmed into my thoughts!

    Or some torque and rpm sensing where it shifts automatically when you spin out or stall out.
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  66. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    I expect to see XTR 12 speed Di2 at sea otter next week. Hopefully etap eagle too, but i'm not holding my breath.
    Drivetrain announcements are what I am most looking forward to from Sea Otter this year. Seems like this category has evolved the most during the past few years. I'd definitely consider a 1x12 setup, however, my 2x10 set up gives me quite a bit more than 500%! And it's hella cheaper!!! Gotta maintain support from the wife as well.


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  67. #1467
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    1x11 is rough.

    1x12 is the ticket because 50 tooth rear is a really capable gear. 10t too.

    2x11 has pretty much thrown in the towel so make sure that's what you really want. Di2 is really cool but it has a lot of baggage, specially the presence of a front derailleur. If one is super XC or a doing the Cape Epic stage race, maybe. Bikepacking with heavy loads, yeah.

    But pretty much nobody specs 2x11. Even Shimano is going big on 1x. It just works really well with mountain biking especially now that we have the range.
    Wa about ethirteen 9-46 11 speed cassette doesnít it sort of have more range than the 10-50 and you have more chainring clearance and not as long dong of a derailleur?

  68. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcin View Post
    Wa about ethirteen 9-46 11 speed cassette doesnít it sort of have more range than the 10-50 and you have more chainring clearance and not as long dong of a derailleur?
    It is ok and a good option for those that currently have 11 speed. Shifting performance though under load is not as good as Eagle. Also longevity is not as good since it is a CNC'd aluminum and not forged and strengthened (the big rings)

    It gets a huge chunk of its range from the 9 tooth since that is a tiny rear. That is a drag though since the chain links are at their limit of chain wrap curvature and that is too tiny a cog to spin efficiently. Also the jump from 9 to 11 tooth cog is huge and not ideal. It may only sound like 2 teeth but it is 22%.
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  69. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chasintrane View Post
    Drivetrain announcements are what I am most looking forward to from Sea Otter this year. Seems like this category has evolved the most during the past few years. I'd definitely consider a 1x12 setup, however, my 2x10 set up gives me quite a bit more than 500%! And it's hella cheaper!!! Gotta maintain support from the wife as well.


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    Did you hear something? There were some massive leaks in the drivetrain forum a few weeks ago.
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  70. #1470
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Also the jump from 9 to 11 tooth cog is huge and not ideal. It may only sound like 2 teeth but it is 22%.
    It doesn't jump from 9 to 11, it goes 9-10-12:
    https://bythehive.com/pages/drivetrain

  71. #1471
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    It is ok and a good option for those that currently have 11 speed. Shifting performance though under load is not as good as Eagle. Also longevity is not as good since it is a CNC'd aluminum and not forged and strengthened (the big rings)

    It gets a huge chunk of its range from the 9 tooth since that is a tiny rear. That is a drag though since the chain links are at their limit of chain wrap curvature and that is too tiny a cog to spin efficiently. Also the jump from 9 to 11 tooth cog is huge and not ideal. It may only sound like 2 teeth but it is 22%.
    I've heard people recommend the 9-46 with a 28 in the front to get a similar range on the low end as the 10-50 with a 30 in front. Looks fine on paper, but how does shifting compare? Thoughts?

  72. #1472
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimw View Post
    It doesn't jump from 9 to 11, it goes 9-10-12:
    https://bythehive.com/pages/drivetrain
    ahh good, much better. 11% jump then 20% jump.

    I think it would have been better with a 10-11-12. More useable.
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  73. #1473
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I've heard people recommend the 9-46 with a 28 in the front to get a similar range on the low end as the 10-50 with a 30 in front. Looks fine on paper, but how does shifting compare? Thoughts?
    Correct. 28 to 9 feels like it has a lot of drag. Like my kid's bmx bike. I think it has 22 to 6. Doesn't even want to turn.
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  74. #1474
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    I've been running the e13 for a while - definitely does not shift as smoothly as eagle, but do like my shimano derailleur. Personally, I'm not in the 9 tooth often at all. Having it available if needed is nice, so can run a 2 tooth smaller front ring and maximize the granny. Big cog lifetime is still uncertain. To get around the 46t, there was definitely more b-tension required, but have not experienced drops, nor anywhere near the limit of adjustment.

  75. #1475
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    Did I just see a 50t gear described as ďreally capableĒ?

    Of what, exactly?




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  76. #1476
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I've heard people recommend the 9-46 with a 28 in the front to get a similar range on the low end as the 10-50 with a 30 in front. Looks fine on paper, but how does shifting compare? Thoughts?
    I have the 9-46 with a 28 front. The range is good, I can do most of my climbing in the middle of the cassette and save the low end for bail outs and steep dragging climbs. That being said I will NOT be replacing it with another 9-46 when the time comes, but rather upgrading to gx eagle. The shifting performance is sub par and the 9t is useless. The chain skips and jumps around on the 9t for the reasons fc stated earlier. Shifts must be perfectly timed and done under bear zero load or expect to be coming to an abrupt and poorly timed stop.


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  77. #1477
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    Here's an idea: two NW chain rings on a double crankset, no FD. Switch by hand if needed

  78. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_twin View Post
    I have the 9-46 with a 28 front. The range is good, I can do most of my climbing in the middle of the cassette and save the low end for bail outs and steep dragging climbs. That being said I will NOT be replacing it with another 9-46 when the time comes, but rather upgrading to gx eagle. The shifting performance is sub par and the 9t is useless. The chain skips and jumps around on the 9t for the reasons fc stated earlier. Shifts must be perfectly timed and done under bear zero load or expect to be coming to an abrupt and poorly timed stop.


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    One of my scariest moments on a bike occurred when I missed a shift at Skeggs while climbing, got caught on the seat, and nearly fell off a cliff! My son said I looked a lot like Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber, teetering and flailing trying to stay upright!

  79. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by BraapTastic View Post
    I've been running the e13 for a while - definitely does not shift as smoothly as eagle, but do like my shimano derailleur. Personally, I'm not in the 9 tooth often at all. Having it available if needed is nice, so can run a 2 tooth smaller front ring and maximize the granny. Big cog lifetime is still uncertain. To get around the 46t, there was definitely more b-tension required, but have not experienced drops, nor anywhere near the limit of adjustment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little_twin View Post
    I have the 9-46 with a 28 front. The range is good, I can do most of my climbing in the middle of the cassette and save the low end for bail outs and steep dragging climbs. That being said I will NOT be replacing it with another 9-46 when the time comes, but rather upgrading to gx eagle. The shifting performance is sub par and the 9t is useless. The chain skips and jumps around on the 9t for the reasons fc stated earlier. Shifts must be perfectly timed and done under bear zero load or expect to be coming to an abrupt and poorly timed stop.


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    Good feedback. Thank you.
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  80. #1480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Here's an idea: two NW chain rings on a double crankset, no FD. Switch by hand if needed
    I will be doing almost exactly that. I can get a good enough low with a 30t NW 1x10 to get me through my usual technical climbs and shorter climbs, it's just the loong grinding climbs that leave me wanting more. But those are the exception to my usual riding, and I'd rather upgrade my lights than spend another penny on replacing non-worn drivetrain parts. So I found the unused 22t granny in my parts bin. NW doesn't seem necessary for a climbing ring and those rings have tall teeth anyways. How long will it take to "shift"? 5 seconds? If I never use it, what's the weight penalty? 50 grams? I can live with that

  81. #1481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Here's an idea: two NW chain rings on a double crankset, no FD. Switch by hand if needed
    If you have two rings what's the point of no derailleur?

  82. #1482
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    I'll stick with 2x10. Some of the solutions are like using a hammer to kill a flea.
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  83. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    If you have two rings what's the point of no derailleur?
    I guess the half pound weight penalty?

    Which can be somewhat compensated with a smaller and cheaper rear cassette and derailleur with no clutch, though those are harder to find now.

  84. #1484
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    If you have two rings what's the point of no derailleur?
    Not something I would go around recommending, but something that sounds useful for me until I invest in a drivetrain upgrade or even just one of the newer oversized 10spd cassettes. We'll see what I think after a month, but here's what I'm thinking now:

    *I can cover 100% of what I normally ride with a 30t ring, but there are some other loops or trails with loong, grinding climbs that I would occasionally ride if I had a bit lower gearing available to keep cadence for that long
    *front derailleurs aren't awful, but I'm not a big fan
    *N/W rings are awesome and I love their consistent performance
    *front derailleurs can't shift down from N/W rings, or if they can it must be awful
    *the amount of times I would need to "shift" in a ride would be 2 or maybe 4 times, and only on the rare occasions I chose those trails
    *I'm not racing, so I don't care about the 5 second break I would need to "shift" manually

  85. #1485
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    When did the title of this thread get changed? It used to be ď1x11...Iím over it for Norcal HillsĒ Now any ďhillsĒ will suffice?

  86. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRP View Post
    How many socks has Squashyo got for this epic thread?
    I just want to toot my own horn here and say that the sock joke is by far my proudest contribution to this fine forum. I'm honored to see it mentioned in such an epic thread. Carry on.
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  87. #1487
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    When did the title of this thread get changed? It used to be ď1x11...Iím over it for Norcal HillsĒ Now any ďhillsĒ will suffice?
    This thread is old and used to be "... I'm over it". But then then the other mods moved it to the drivetrain forum since it was not a regional topic. We then changed it to "...for norcal hills" to appease the others and give it some regionality.

    We then changed our regional forum policy to discuss anything they want since they are really little communities where folks get familiarity and equity with each other.

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  88. #1488
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    If you have two rings what's the point of no derailleur?
    We called it "hand shift" where you get off the bike and move the chain by hand to get the other front ring to climb the steep stuff. It was born out of singlespeeding and a desire to keep simple and light. I had a bike like this for about a year.

    It was stupid. Chain would fall all the time. It interrupted flow and hands would get dirty.

    Narrow wide chainrings changed that as they would grab the chain and just not let go without a front derailleur.
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    Some pro enduro racers run 2 rings/no FD and do the hand shift or least they use to. They'd drop the chain for the climbs and lift the chains for the race. That was a few years back...maybe pre NW?
    I still run 3x, my big ring is somewhere between a bash ring and a biopace looking thing due to drags on granite with level pedals. It still holds the chain well enough for fireroad downhills or paved road approaches, but sure doesn't look very good. I run 26, 32 44 up front and 11-26 in the rear keep my knees happy on all types of trails, but then again I am pretty old.

  90. #1490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_twin View Post
    That being said I will NOT be replacing it with another 9-46 when the time comes, but rather upgrading to gx eagle. The shifting performance is sub par and the 9t is useless. The chain skips and jumps around on the 9t for the reasons fc stated earlier. Shifts must be perfectly timed and done under bear zero load or expect to be coming to an abrupt and poorly timed stop.


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    After all the negative feedback on the e13 9-46 here, I guess I will take it off the table for my next bike/drivetrain. One option for a 12 speed upgrade I wasn't aware of, for those without an XD driver, is the Sunrace 11-50 (MZ90) with gx shifter/derailleur/chain, which doesn't look to be a ton more expensive than the e13 trs+ (9-46). I don't see any in depth reviews of the sunrace 12 speed cassette though, just some posts that it works fine.

  91. #1491
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrozCountry View Post
    If you have two rings what's the point of no derailleur?
    Real answer: I was mostly kidding

    Plausible answer: that's where the dropper lever goes

  92. #1492
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    The world is now going 1X to get rid of the front derailleur and left shifter. However, I've had little trouble with the front derailleur. And the FD is used ~100X less often (my Garmin counts via wireless to the Di2). Rather, I have many more problems with the rear derailleur that a 1X doesn't fix and could even make worse with the large cogs and shifts.

    In particular, a couple months ago I was having a lot of skipping and miserable shifting on my XT Shadow rear derailleur that I used on my Giant Trance in CT. The bike became pretty much unrideable. The bike shops in CT couldn't find any significant RD alignment issue and were not able to fix it, so I looked at replacing it. I had superb behavior with my 3X11 XTR on my Bronson in CA, so I decided to give the new XT 2x11 Di2 a try.

    I found the XT 2x11 Di2 worked great with flawless shifting (after a tweak to fix a very rare and very minor issue). The XT 2x11 Di2 doesn't shift a fast as my XTR 3x11 Di2, where the RD shifted in 1/4 to 1/2 of a crank turn, and the FD shifted in 1/2 to 3/4 of a crank turn. However, my XT 2x11 takes about twice as long to shift. I thought that surprising as I finally realized the shift speed was controlled by the rear cog rotation to a ramp point, which matches with a 1/4 to 1/2 rotation of the front crank. Nevertheless, the slower shift is not an issue for me as I don't let up on power during shifting, and it's just another fraction of a second at the old gear.

    But most important, I found the new XT 2x11 Di2 shifts flawlessly and extremely reliably. It never skips or drops. My CT riding is over rough terrain, with nonstop big rocks, logs, streams, mud, sand, rain, snow, and overall nasty. I never get a chain drop, probably due to the higher clutch tension allowed and implemented on the Di2

    I am disappointed at the demise of the 3x11 Di2 drive. Once one has a FD, the third chain ring is minimal in weight and cost. Each front chain ring (at ~30% speed jump) is equivalent to two rear cogs (at ~15% speed jump). So the 2X adds two rear cogs and the 3X adds 4 rear cogs for much more range.

    And with Di2, I don't have a left shifter on either bike, 2X or 3X. The XT 2x11 Di2 has a low cost only a little more than a regular drive train. And the rear cassette is much lower cost on the periodic maintenance.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  93. #1493
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    Dont worry BigLarry 2x will be back....at 2x the cost of 1x though.

    I too like the crisper shifts in the rear with smaller jumps and any shift can be at full power. Unfortunately for my wallet, I seem to damage my RD far too frequently ~ 1x/2yrs. Ill bet your 4 bar linkages have some damage. My FD is the only thing I have never replaced.

    The biggest issue seems to be the difficulty in dialing in FD chain entry with rear suspension movement. The lower ring opening is just too wide and allows the chain to bang around and drop. Ive got mine dialed so that if I do drop my chain, a half peddle puts me back on my lower ring and I am off peddling again. Anyway, best to let the air out of the shock so that you can check all sag positions if you are having trouble.

  94. #1494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommybees View Post
    Dont worry BigLarry 2x will be back....at 2x the cost of 1x though.

    I too like the crisper shifts in the rear with smaller jumps and any shift can be at full power. Unfortunately for my wallet, I seem to damage my RD far too frequently ~ 1x/2yrs. Ill bet your 4 bar linkages have some damage. My FD is the only thing I have never replaced.

    The biggest issue seems to be the difficulty in dialing in FD chain entry with rear suspension movement. The lower ring opening is just too wide and allows the chain to bang around and drop. Ive got mine dialed so that if I do drop my chain, a half peddle puts me back on my lower ring and I am off peddling again. Anyway, best to let the air out of the shock so that you can check all sag positions if you are having trouble.
    Not sure why you say 2X will be double the cost of 1X. The cost of the giant 1X cassette can actually cause the 1X cost to be even higher than Di2 2X, when used with an Eagle cassette. (I did a break down on the other thread.) With GX instead of Eagle cassettes, the cost of 1X will drop to become lower than 2X Di2, but certainly not half, and may still be more expensive than mechanical 2X. And that cassette needs periodic replacement.

    I tend to completely wreck my RD roughly every 3 years or so, usually from a stick or weed winding it up, but I'm more careful to immediately stop these days. But even when not wrecked, the RD can get bent and battered, causing bad shifting as I observed in my previous post. Especially in my CT riding, I'm constantly knocking rocks, logs, trees, and so on, and have needed to replace my RD about annually for this reason.

    The Di2 RD is very strong, looking more like my past Saint RD. In the many thousands of miles I've ridden on my XTR Di2 in CA, I noted the Di2 RD doesn't get banged out of alignment like my mechanical RD, and has maintained beautiful sharp crisp shifting over the years.

    The XTR Di2 RD did get a very hard knock once on a log in UCSC, I just adjusted the electronics on the fly to keep shifting properly and finish the ride. Later at the LBS, they had to bend my derailleur hanger back. But my Di2 RD was in perfect condition. It was tougher than my bike. Still going for 3 years and many thousands of miles.

    I ride through lots of rock piles, like Rocky Ridge and Stile Ranch in Santa Teresa. I also do stream beds. I never get chain slap. My drive train stays perfectly quiet and all I hear is the rumble of my tires rolling the rocks. Once tuned, my FD has not dropped once in the past years and 1000s of miles of riding. I understand this tighter chain is due to the much tighter tension of the Di2 clutch that's allowed by using strong motors instead of mechanical shifters. And controlled shifting by the Di2 electronics precludes chain dropping from over control. Just doesn't happen.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  95. #1495
    fc
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    I knew this thread would get BigLarry back out.
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  96. #1496
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I knew this thread would get BigLarry back out.
    Yeah, you guessed it. Someone's got to represent the opposing view.

    I was trying to avoid being dragged into a response, but my extensive experience using Di2 has proven this approach and allowed me to go a different route, which I still feel is a very valid solution for those who really want a higher range of gears than any 1X. (The lower gears Di2 2X made available in CT has been a god send to me on short but nasty steep hills, along with fast gears for the road.)

    At some point Di2 might finally die an unworthy death, at which point there'll be no more point for my response. But for now the 2X Di2 is still sputtering along.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  97. #1497
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    1x is fine for people that take a chair lift to the top of the mountain, but I hate that the gearing of mountain bikes has been ruined because we are supposed to want what the professionals use. The events in which the professionals participate being far too specialized to represent what recreational-cyclists ride.
    On a typical bike-ride, I'd need everything from a road bike to a trail-bike if it wasn't for my do-everything-bike having a triple chain-ring.
    Road, gravel, cyclo-cross, cross country, trial = my cross country bike with a triple crank. It's bloody ridiculous. The 500+% range might sound impressive, but you're guaranteed to never find a gear that matches your cadence.

  98. #1498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidow View Post
    1x is fine for people that take a chair lift to the top of the mountain, but I hate that the gearing of mountain bikes has been ruined because we are supposed to want what the professionals use. The events in which the professionals participate being far too specialized to represent what recreational-cyclists ride.
    On a typical bike-ride, I'd need everything from a road bike to a trail-bike if it wasn't for my do-everything-bike having a triple chain-ring.
    Road, gravel, cyclo-cross, cross country, trial = my cross country bike with a triple crank. It's bloody ridiculous. The 500+% range might sound impressive, but you're guaranteed to never find a gear that matches your cadence.
    Exactly!! Not only do I have more gear range with my 2x10 set-up compared to Eagle, I also have a finer gear selection that allows me to better control my pace/tempo/cadence. For the average Joe who has to deal with inclines and mountains, 2x10 just makes more sense. However, the industry is telling us otherwise.

  99. #1499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggs1993 View Post
    After all the negative feedback on the e13 9-46 here, I guess I will take it off the table for my next bike/drivetrain. One option for a 12 speed upgrade I wasn't aware of, for those without an XD driver, is the Sunrace 11-50 (MZ90) with gx shifter/derailleur/chain, which doesn't look to be a ton more expensive than the e13 trs+ (9-46). I don't see any in depth reviews of the sunrace 12 speed cassette though, just some posts that it works fine.
    I'll throw in an opposing view. I have the e13 9-46 cassette and have NO complaints about shifting performance or noise (haven't had it long enough to comment on durability). I'm running it with an XTR Di2 rear mech and shifts are fast and consistent, even under load. Honestly, I thought shifting performance would take a hit when I went from my Shimano 11-42 cassette to the e13 but aside from slightly more noise shifting down under load, I don't really notice a difference. Yes, a lot of that probably has to do with the fact that it's a Di2 mech but I'd say my setup shifts better than Eagle XX1 and much better than Eagle GX (both of which I tried pretty extensively)

    True, you'll feel the roughness of the 9T but I don't really like the 10T either.

    If you're building a drivetrain up from scratch, sure, Eagle is probably your best bet but if you just want a little more range, don't count out the e13 - in spite of the Eagle fanboys.
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  100. #1500
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Not sure why you say 2X will be double the cost of 1X. The cost of the giant 1X cassette can actually cause the 1X cost to be even higher than Di2 2X, when used with an Eagle cassette. (I did a break down on the other thread.) With GX instead of Eagle cassettes, the cost of 1X will drop to become lower than 2X Di2, but certainly not half, and may still be more expensive than mechanical 2X. And that cassette needs periodic replacement.

    I tend to completely wreck my RD roughly every 3 years or so, usually from a stick or weed winding it up, but I'm more careful to immediately stop these days. But even when not wrecked, the RD can get bent and battered, causing bad shifting as I observed in my previous post. Especially in my CT riding, I'm constantly knocking rocks, logs, trees, and so on, and have needed to replace my RD about annually for this reason.

    The Di2 RD is very strong, looking more like my past Saint RD. In the many thousands of miles I've ridden on my XTR Di2 in CA, I noted the Di2 RD doesn't get banged out of alignment like my mechanical RD, and has maintained beautiful sharp crisp shifting over the years.

    The XTR Di2 RD did get a very hard knock once on a log in UCSC, I just adjusted the electronics on the fly to keep shifting properly and finish the ride. Later at the LBS, they had to bend my derailleur hanger back. But my Di2 RD was in perfect condition. It was tougher than my bike. Still going for 3 years and many thousands of miles.

    I ride through lots of rock piles, like Rocky Ridge and Stile Ranch in Santa Teresa. I also do stream beds. I never get chain slap. My drive train stays perfectly quiet and all I hear is the rumble of my tires rolling the rocks. Once tuned, my FD has not dropped once in the past years and 1000s of miles of riding. I understand this tighter chain is due to the much tighter tension of the Di2 clutch that's allowed by using strong motors instead of mechanical shifters. And controlled shifting by the Di2 electronics precludes chain dropping from over control. Just doesn't happen.
    After riding Santa Cruz today, Iím ready for 2x11 or 2x12.

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