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  1. #1
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    Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes

    Ibis is listing Deore 4 piston brakes on their Ripmo GX build. Any idea when these will be available for retail?

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    sure they aren't just failing to list them properly as 'deore XT 4 piston'? I'd be pretty pissed to get Deore level anything on a $5100 bike.

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    And as far as 4 piston Deore XT (m8020):

    https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT...020-Disc-Brake

    Been running them myself for a bit now and love the shit out of them =)

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    There is a new Deore 4 piston brake set, BR-MT520 + BL-MT501

    https://www.bike24.com/p2271033.html

    http://off.road.cc/content/news/shim...520-brake-2702

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDogVT View Post
    Ibis is listing Deore 4 piston brakes on their Ripmo GX build. Any idea when these will be available for retail?
    Already available, a bit under $100 a set.
    https://blueskycycling.com/products/...501-disc-brake

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Already available, a bit under $100 a set.
    https://blueskycycling.com/products/...501-disc-brake
    That's ummm...$100 per side.
    Last edited by noapathy; 07-27-2018 at 12:04 AM.

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    Last edited by Taildragger; 07-27-2018 at 05:07 AM.

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    Salsa Timberjack SS
    -Gears give me headaches

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    My bad - caliper shape fooled me. Still, at $180 for a pair Zee isn't much more. Wonder what price they'll be when they're more widely available? I only see them at bluesky...wonder if that's really in stock?

    Looks like they use the BH90 hose, so most of the recent Shimano levers would be compatible but the hose connects with what looks like the Deore style setup at the caliper. Interesting possibilities.

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    I've been looking for a set of ZEE brakes but can't find them for much less then M8020s which look like ZEEs with toolless adjustable reach. Anyone know a good source at a good price $240 +-?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    I've been looking for a set of ZEE brakes but can't find them for much less then M8020s which look like ZEEs with toolless adjustable reach. Anyone know a good source at a good price $240 +-?
    Check here: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...ry_country=191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I was hopeing for a US distrubutor.

    Thanks!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    I was hopeing for a US distrubutor.

    Thanks!!
    I thought so, just wanted to give you an option.

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    I guess it looks like Shimano is going for the BR-MT520 + BL-MT501 and the M8020 brake sets for 4 piston implementations. That's probably smart business and a decent product tier.

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    Jensen is getting more ZEEs in this week.

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    I think this is the MT-501 that are coming spec'd on new 2019 Stumpjumpers, but Shimano's numbering is always confusing, especially for different markets.

    Per this article - https://www.facebook.com/notes/bird-...2367234948828/

    Deconstruction of the name helps allude to this new super-brakeís heritage. Its a 500 series product, which makes it just a bit below Deore (6-series) but actually not really as 5 & 6 series components are generally Deore level just with different slants on the OE vs aftermarket target for the product, and the BR-M520 tells us in Shimanoís new 4 pot parlance that this is a 4 piston caliper. In essence, its a non-series (ĎShimanoí branded rather than ĎDeoreí) Deore lever with a new 4 piston caliper at the other end.
    Its target is the e-Bike market, hence, I guess, the use of a non-series moniker. It means that this brake fits nicely with Alfine, Steps, Deore... whichever Shimano brand you want to chose its going to work, but you can bet your life on it appearing all over everyoneís mid range enduro and trail bikes in 2019.
    Sounds like Shimano is attempting to rebrand their lower spec brakes generically, almost private label-esque for the manufacturers. Regardless, seems like they are a proper brake, despite being a budget category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    I think this is the MT-501 that are coming spec'd on new 2019 Stumpjumpers, but Shimano's numbering is always confusing, especially for different markets.
    Where are these '19 stumpys with 4 pot shimano brakes? Every model I see is either SLX (comp carbon/alloy), or Sram Guides (just about all of the rest.) Didn't check the s-works or mega-overpriced variants, but I would definitely not anticipate finding Deore on those either.

    Edit: found 501's on the ST comp alloy model. Website pics are pretty clearly 2-pot brake calipers though.

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...=239758-159205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Where are these '19 stumpys with 4 pot shimano brakes? Every model I see is either SLX (comp carbon/alloy), or Sram Guides (just about all of the rest.) Didn't check the s-works or mega-overpriced variants, but I would definitely not anticipate finding Deore on those either.

    Edit: found 501's on the ST comp alloy model. Website pics are pretty clearly 2-pot brake calipers though.

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...=239758-159205

    So are MT-501's just Deore BR-M6000 brakes with a different nomenclature?

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    Bringing this back to life. I'm having my LBS swap out a seat post before I pick up my new Ripmo (GX build), and I am a bit surprised that it is spec'd with Deore (not XT) 4-piston brakes. Ibis did this to shave costs on non Shimano builds because they aren't getting the groupo discount. Brakes are the only Shimano part on the bike.

    Have people had the variable bite problems with the Deore 4-pistons? I could have the shop swap brakes before I pick up the bike, and I would get the dealer cost back toward the new brake purchase, and 10% off new brakes which they offer when you buy a bike.

    Deore has stainless rather than ceramic pistons of the XT, and the reach adjustment requires a tool vs on the fly with a knob on XT. I think once I set the reach, I wouldn't mess with it again, but the ceramic pistons will transfer less heat into the fluid.

    Deore 4-pistons may be fine brakes, and it may not be worth the swap. Still can't help but to think it's a mismatch lower level component based on the rest of the bike.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Deore has stainless rather than ceramic pistons of the XT, and the reach adjustment requires a tool vs on the fly with a knob on XT. I think once I set the reach, I wouldn't mess with it again, but the ceramic pistons will transfer less heat into the fluid.
    They don't have stainless steel pistons, they have ceramic pistons like the SLX/XT/XTR.

    BR-MT520 Specs: http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/spe...0disc%20brake)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobba View Post
    They don't have stainless steel pistons, they have ceramic pistons like the SLX/XT/XTR.

    BR-MT520 Specs: 2018-2019 SHIMANO Product Information Web
    That spec sheet shows the Deore has resin pistons, not ceramic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    That spec sheet shows the Deore has resin pistons, not ceramic.
    The Deore brake with resin pistons that you're looking at only has 2 pistons.

    The BR-MT520 is the 4 piston 'Deore' which they list as having ceramic pistons.

    Shimano don't list this 4 piston brake as 'Deore' but that's what it's being called.

    http://off.road.cc/content/news/shim...520-brake-2702

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/bird-...2367234948828/

    * Shimano says they do have ceramic pistons, the second article says they don't have ceramic pistons but the pistons look to be the same as the ones in the photo of the XT 8020 brake that's next to it.

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    Thanks for clarifying. theres not much information about these yet, and it seems that most of the variable bite position issues are happening on XT and Saint models.

    Weight differences between these and XT/ XTR are pretty insignificant, and the few online reviewers seemed to like them - some even better than XT.
    I donít really have anything to justify swapping these for a Ďhigherí Shimano designation or another brand, so Iíll probably ride them. As they are priced to be mass market 4-piston brakes, and even targeting the E-Bike segment, Shimano is going to want them to be solid.

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    I bought a HD4 a couple months ago right as Ibis started spec'ing the GX builds with the BR-MT520 brakes. I was planning on upgrading to XT but my LBS talked me into staying with the new 4 pistons. I was coming off a bike with Guide R brakes which were mediocre at best so braking performance on my HD4 was a priority. After a few months of riding, I can honestly say that I am happy with their performance. Much better than my Guides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I bought a HD4 a couple months ago right as Ibis started spec'ing the GX builds with the BR-MT520 brakes. I was planning on upgrading to XT but my LBS talked me into staying with the new 4 pistons. I was coming off a bike with Guide R brakes which were mediocre at best so braking performance on my HD4 was a priority. After a few months of riding, I can honestly say that I am happy with their performance. Much better than my Guides.
    That's good to hear. have you had to re-adjust the reach once initially setup? Not having the XT on the fly reach adjustment knob seems like a potential pain. On my Elixir CRs, I've used the manual reach adjustment knob dozens of times over the years on the trail when I've wanted more or less reach or to change engagement position to reduce fatigue on long descents. Having to pull out a multi-tool, or carry a small torx wrench to do this sounds like a hassle. Maybe not worth the cost to upgrade or buy something else, but it's a consideration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    That's good to hear. have you had to re-adjust the reach once initially setup? Not having the XT on the fly reach adjustment knob seems like a potential pain. On my Elixir CRs, I've used the manual reach adjustment knob dozens of times over the years on the trail when I've wanted more or less reach or to change engagement position to reduce fatigue on long descents. Having to pull out a multi-tool, or carry a small torx wrench to do this sounds like a hassle. Maybe not worth the cost to upgrade or buy something else, but it's a consideration.
    That is my only real complain with them is I wish I could adjust the bite point like you can on the XTs. The way the shop had it set up, the levers were hitting my middle fingers right around the same time they would start to bite. I ended moving them in on the bars further and it has been fine. If you use 2 fingers to brake it may be an issue. I have done some pretty long high speed descents and I have never felt like I needed to adjust the bite point. I have fairly large hands so the reach has never been an issue for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    That is my only real complain with them is I wish I could adjust the bite point like you can on the XTs. The way the shop had it set up, the levers were hitting my middle fingers right around the same time they would start to bite. I ended moving them in on the bars further and it has been fine. If you use 2 fingers to brake it may be an issue. I have done some pretty long high speed descents and I have never felt like I needed to adjust the bite point. I have fairly large hands so the reach has never been an issue for me.
    Do they only have a bite point adjustment? You say you physically moved the brake levers further in on the bars rather than adjusting the reach further out, which sounds like there is no reach adjustment. That would be a definite deal breaker for me. When I test rode the Ripmo yesterday, the levers came way too far in (pressing into my fingers on hard braking - and I use 2 fingers). I didnít think much of it because I saw the adjustment screw, which I thought was reach. The Elixirs have reach and bite. You have nearly infinite adjustment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Do they only have a bite point adjustment? You say you physically moved the brake levers further in on the bars rather than adjusting the reach further out, which sounds like there is no reach adjustment. That would be a definite deal breaker for me. When I test rode the Ripmo yesterday, the levers came way too far in (pressing into my fingers on hard braking - and I use 2 fingers). I didnít think much of it because I saw the adjustment screw, which I thought was reach. The Elixirs have reach and bite. You have nearly infinite adjustment.
    No they only have reach adjustment. They need the bite point adjustment to make them bite prior to the levers hitting my fingers. Reach only adjusts how close the lever sits to to the bite point which has no effect on where the lever is in when it starts to bite.

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    The calipers are nearly identical to 4 piston XT calipers minus the cooling fins and ceramic pistons. If you want the tooless adjustments, just get XT levers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    The calipers are nearly identical to 4 piston XT calipers minus the cooling fins and ceramic pistons. If you want the tooless adjustments, just get XT levers.
    I called my shop about the BR-MT520 and told them about my concern about lever positioning, reach and bite.

    The mechanic I talked to said that the lever positioning could be tweaked via a combination of making sure they are completely bled and adjustment of the screw to make the bite happen further out on the lever position. He said these Deore levers had identical adjustability to the XT, and the only difference is the requirement to use a tool rather than the manual knob.

    Iím not sure if this is correct or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    I called my shop about the BR-MT520 and told them about my concern about lever positioning, reach and bite.

    The mechanic I talked to said that the lever positioning could be tweaked via a combination of making sure they are completely bled and adjustment of the screw to make the bite happen further out on the lever position. He said these Deore levers had identical adjustability to the XT, and the only difference is the requirement to use a tool rather than the manual knob.

    Iím not sure if this is correct or not.
    Hmmmm Maybe I will have mine bled again and see if it helps. I need to call my shop this afternoon so I will see what they say about bite point adjustment outside of just bleeding.

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    So far so good with these brakes. The shop adjusted the levers and bite point out about 1.5 - 1.75Ē from the bars where I wanted them, and aside from squealing when the pads heat up on the two cold morning rides Iíve done, they modulate well and have about double the stopping power that my Avid Elixir CRs do.

    Iím hoping the squeal is break in, and will go away soon.


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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    So far so good with these brakes. The shop adjusted the levers and bite point out about 1.5 - 1.75Ē from the bars where I wanted them, and aside from squealing when the pads heat up on the two cold morning rides Iíve done, they modulate well and have about double the stopping power that my Avid Elixir CRs do.

    Iím hoping the squeal is break in, and will go away soon.


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    Nice! I am pretty sure I need to have mine bled to get them to bit sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    The calipers are nearly identical to 4 piston XT calipers minus the......ceramic pistons.
    Are you sure about that?



    .
    Last edited by cobba; 10-11-2018 at 09:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobba View Post
    Are you sure about that?
    Those are ceramic


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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Those are ceramic
    Just like the XT's

    Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes-520.jpg

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    Iím tired of the variable bite point on my 2 pot XTís: do the 4 pot XT and Deore have this issue too?
    The difference in price I can get them is no too big, so Iíd rather go with XT as they look nicer, but only if they donít have the pumping issues.
    Iím 75 kg so donít need loads of stopping power, but Iím looking for good modulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaniardclimber View Post
    Iím tired of the variable bite point on my 2 pot XTís: do the 4 pot XT and Deore have this issue too?
    The difference in price I can get them is no too big, so Iíd rather go with XT as they look nicer, but only if they donít have the pumping issues.
    Iím 75 kg so donít need loads of stopping power, but Iím looking for good modulation.
    After this weekend at Downieville as my first test of the Deore, They performed flawlessly. Great modulation and bite was consistent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cobba View Post
    Are you sure about that?



    .
    Nope! lol

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    Those rotors sure vibrate and squeal when hot though!

    They hit a resonance sometime where they physically shake the front end, and you have to release and re engage the brakes to stop it. They have had several hundred miles to break in so far and it happens every ride when braking a lot.


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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Those rotors sure vibrate and squeal when hot though!

    They hit a resonance sometime where they physically shake the front end, and you have to release and re engage the brakes to stop it. They have had several hundred miles to break in so far and it happens every ride when braking a lot.


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    I haven't experienced anything like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Those rotors sure vibrate and squeal when hot though!

    They hit a resonance sometime where they physically shake the front end, and you have to release and re engage the brakes to stop it. They have had several hundred miles to break in so far and it happens every ride when braking a lot.


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    Did you use brand new discs?

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    Didn't realize they existed...already have Zees on the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaniardclimber View Post
    Did you use brand new discs?
    Yes, brand new everything on new Ripmo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Yes, brand new everything on new Ripmo.


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    Resin or metallic pads? Everything you're describing to me sounds like resin pads. I prefer metallic pads, as they tend to get quieter as they heat up, IME (they will howl a storm if they get wet and are cold, but as they warm up and the water bakes off, they quiet down).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Resin or metallic pads? Everything you're describing to me sounds like resin pads. I prefer metallic pads, as they tend to get quieter as they heat up, IME (they will howl a storm if they get wet and are cold, but as they warm up and the water bakes off, they quiet down).
    Iíll check when I get home. Unfortunately thatís the one item that the Ibis spec sheet doesnít clarify. This morning it was foggy and cold, and the pads didnít make any noise. Iíll definitely install metallic pads if it is resin pads now. Iíve also swapped my rotors in the past with Alligator Wind Cutters, and had great luck with those. Much better than Shimano and Avids Iíve used.


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    Looks like they offer both metallic and resin pads for the new MT520:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes-new4deore.png  


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    Pretty sure they come stock with resin pads. Metallic pads are on my short list.

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    Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Pretty sure they come stock with resin pads. Metallic pads are on my short list.
    Metallic pads.

    This points to the rotors. Remember the Avid turkey warble? That turned out to be an issue with the rotors. Once they were swapped out with something else, the noise never returned. I bought the Alligator Wind Cutters for my previous bike with Avid as mentioned above, and I think Iíll order another set for the Ripmo.

    These pads and rotors are well broken in, and this shouldnít be happening any more.




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    Is it me or does the contact area on those pads look a little small? If that groove has been cut by the outside edge of your rotor then your issue might be that the caliper is set too far out from the disc. Worth checking. Someone will correct me, but i'm pretty sure you should have full contact across the pad and rotor surface.

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    Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by ButtersNZ View Post
    Is it me or does the contact area on those pads look a little small? If that groove has been cut by the outside edge of your rotor then your issue might be that the caliper is set too far out from the disc. Worth checking. Someone will correct me, but i'm pretty sure you should have full contact across the pad and rotor surface.
    No, that groove is either a flaw in that pad or was caused by a small piece of gravel getting in one of the holes in the rotor and spinning past the pad. The rotor edge is even with the top of the pads front and back.



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    By the way, itís only the front brake thatís squealing and only after sustained braking. Iíll take out the pads to clean with BrakeClean and wipe down the rotors. I donít think the rotors have enough air veins cut in them to aid in cooling and carrying brake dust and dirt away from the pads. Rotors with a lot of open space work best IMHO.


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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    By the way, itís only the front brake thatís squealing and only after sustained braking. Iíll take out the pads to clean with BrakeClean and wipe down the rotors. I donít think the rotors have enough air veins cut in them to aid in cooling and carrying brake dust and dirt away from the pads. Rotors with a lot of open space work best IMHO.


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    So your mechanic mentioned that you can control the bite point with bleed....

    I finally got my bike up to my shop (hour drive) and decided I could live without it for a couple days so they could bleed the brakes and do a few other miscellaneous things while it was there. I explained my issue of the lever pulling in too far hitting my middle finger before the brakes were full engaged and he asked if I had adjusted the reach. I said no because I had no complaints with reach and that it was just the bite point I had an issue with. He told me that on these it would makes a difference. He grabbed an allen and started tightening the adjuster. Sure enough, it increased the bite point significantly.

    I still don't understand how exactly? Does it force the plunger in the lever down? That would obviously move the pistons in the caliper a little and be more prone to pad rub. Or does it just make the "Servo Wave" ramp up more quickly in the stroke of the lever? Either way, so much better now!

  54. #54
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    Shimano Deore 4 Piston Brakes

    Not sure if it pushes the pistons in or moves the cam in the lever further up the ramp to engage sooner, but glad it worked for you!

    No complaints on mike except for that squeal. By the way, the squeal is actually coming from the rear not front. It was hard to pinpoint while riding and braking downhill, but I was able to verify this.




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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    Not sure if it pushes the pistons in or moves the cam in the lever further up the ramp to engage sooner, but glad it worked for you!

    No complaints on mike except for that squeal. By the way, the squeal is actually coming from the rear not front. It was hard to pinpoint while riding and braking downhill, but I was able to verify this.




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    Only time I have had mine make noise is when they get wet and it doesn't last long. Is it possible something contaminated the pads?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Only time I have had mine make noise is when they get wet and it doesn't last long. Is it possible something contaminated the pads?
    Could be. Iím taking the bike in for itís 1 month service soon, and may ask them to change out the rear pads. Thereís a radial gouge in one of the rear pads (pictured earlier in this thread), and maybe that is contributing to the squeal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So your mechanic mentioned that you can control the bite point with bleed....

    I finally got my bike up to my shop (hour drive) and decided I could live without it for a couple days so they could bleed the brakes and do a few other miscellaneous things while it was there. I explained my issue of the lever pulling in too far hitting my middle finger before the brakes were full engaged and he asked if I had adjusted the reach. I said no because I had no complaints with reach and that it was just the bite point I had an issue with. He told me that on these it would makes a difference. He grabbed an allen and started tightening the adjuster. Sure enough, it increased the bite point significantly.

    I still don't understand how exactly? Does it force the plunger in the lever down? That would obviously move the pistons in the caliper a little and be more prone to pad rub. Or does it just make the "Servo Wave" ramp up more quickly in the stroke of the lever? Either way, so much better now!
    2 things.

    Removing the wheel and squeezing the lever will move the pistons in and move the bite point out.

    If you are pinching your finger under the lever I suggest moving the lever in until the index fingers are on the end of the levers comfortably. They are levers and maximum power is at the end.

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    I got some bad ideas in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    2 things.

    Removing the wheel and squeezing the lever will move the pistons in and move the bite point out.

    If you are pinching your finger under the lever I suggest moving the lever in until the index fingers are on the end of the levers comfortably. They are levers and maximum power is at the end.

    Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk
    To get them far enough in to clear my middle fingers, it had them a little further in than where I ideally wanted them.

    I have to ask if you are messing with me??? lol So when you say remove the wheel and squeeze the lever, I am assuming you mean with the pads removed and force the pistons out as far as possible? Seems like that once you get the pistons opened up far enough to get the pads in and the wheel on, you would be back to square one.

    Like I said, the adjustment on the levers has them perfect now. At this point I have to assume that it makes the linkage ramp up more quickly as much as it changed where in the lever stroke the brakes bite now.

  59. #59
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    https://enduro-mtb.com/en/how-to-set...ers-perfectly/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5bS9_WIZQ

    https://www.mbr.co.uk/how-to-2/set-b...rfectly-372778

    I am not messing with you or anyone else, at least not now. IMO if your brakes were setup properly you would not be able to crush the middle fingers. I remove the wheel and pump the lever to move the bite point out all the time. You would have to pump a lot to get the pistons to the point that the rotor won't fit anymore. Try it, and you won't have to move the reach out into a poor position.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    https://enduro-mtb.com/en/how-to-set...ers-perfectly/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5bS9_WIZQ

    https://www.mbr.co.uk/how-to-2/set-b...rfectly-372778

    I am not messing with you or anyone else, at least not now. IMO if your brakes were setup properly you would not be able to crush the middle fingers. I remove the wheel and pump the lever to move the bite point out all the time. You would have to pump a lot to get the pistons to the point that the rotor won't fit anymore. Try it, and you won't have to move the reach out into a poor position.
    None of those links mention being able to adjust the bite point the way you described.

    I have been riding motos and bicycles for years so I am very familiar with where I want my levers positioned and where I want the reach to be. After making the reach adjustment the brakes are exactly where I want them.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I have been riding motos and bicycles for years so I am very familiar with where I want my levers positioned and where I want the reach to be. After making the reach adjustment the brakes are exactly where I want them.
    I felt like that back in the day coming from rim brakes and 2 or 3 fingers on the lever, but once I finally tried using only one finger it really did make things much easier. Not everyone's the same, but I know for me at least old habits are often hard to break. If that's not you, that's cool. Just sharing my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I felt like that back in the day coming from rim brakes and 2 or 3 fingers on the lever, but once I finally tried using only one finger it really did make things much easier. Not everyone's the same, but I know for me at least old habits are often hard to break. If that's not you, that's cool. Just sharing my experience.
    One finger braker here.

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    An additional note -- I was unhappy with my bite point, and this thread helped me solve it. I kept trying to decrease the reach thinking it would be faster to bite, but increasing it fixed the problem!

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