shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set

    I just started looking at new shimano brake sets and noticed shimano is releasing a new 4 pistion xt and trigger set june 14th. Are the updates worth waiting two weeks for and probably paying atleast and extra $100+ for? I can get a br-m8020 set for $279 on ebay and it says the BR-M8120 will be priced at $209.99 per front and rear and probably be a little cheaper on ebay. I guess if I wait the m8020 will probably go down in price as well. Anyoneone know more specifics as to how much better the new xt set up is compared to the current version?

  2. #2
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    No idea but am very interested in this discussion if anyone has actual experience. Cura 4 and Magura MT trail are appealing to me as well, but Formula has very little retail presence in US (not even sure where cura 4 is available) and I didn't have the best of experience with some Maguras in the very early 00's (probably unfair, but the bias is still there). My initial internet reviewing seems to point me toward XT 4 piston stoppers. Reduced price 8020 would be really nice if there isn't some compelling reason to wait for the 8100 set release.

  3. #3
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    Shimano has been the best brake I have owned and I like the non toxic braker fluid and ease off bleeding. Im on slx from a few years ago and I want to be able to adjust my pad contact as well as my triggers

  4. #4
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    What I wanna know is if anything really changed, i read they usually take current xtr tech and put it in the next version xt. With the new fancy names did anything change? It sounds like the calipers are the same and they upgraded the triggers.

  5. #5
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    Shimanos website say that the new XT is 10% more powerful than the old XT (both 4 piston).

    The first ride reports scattered across the web all talk about a bit better modulation than the previous generation as well, without losing the trademark shimano "bite".

    I've also seen at least 2-3 first ride reports saying that the free stroke/pad contact adjustment on the new XT doesn't do much, for what its worth.

    And, the only difference between SLX, and XT, is that the XT has that free stroke/pad contact adjustment, as well as a dimpled lever (for more traction). So, if the pad contact thing doesn't work that great, it sounds like SLX could be the way to go to save some money, and get the new brake with better modulation.

    We'll probably know more when longer term reviews come out though.

  6. #6
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    The new XT 4 pistons M8120 (calipers and levers) looks like 4 pistons XTR M9120, while the "old" XT M8020 looks like the saints (and using the same pads).

    I wonder how they all performed against each other and whats the caliper size difference between all of them?

    Also, is it possible to mix between old levers and new calipers (and opposite way)?

  7. #7
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    Deore, Zee, SLX, XT, Saint, XTR levers from newest generations and 2 previous gens are cross-compatible (with calipers) within the same group and cross-group. They share same diameter master cylinder and when pressing the trigger, the master piston travels the same distance.
    If you see/read reports about bigger master pistons in the levers for 4 pistons calipers or that more oil is needed to push 4 pistons is not true at all.

    The only thing that's true is that inside of larger calipers themself (with 4 pistons), there is more oil, which is to be expected.

    XTR/Saint/XT/SLX/Zee BR-M9120/820/8120/8020/7120/640 have same size pistons (2x16 mm + 2x18 mm).
    P.S. - Magura MT5, MT7 and MT Trail share same caliper body and have 4x17 mm pistons.

    XTR/XT/SLX BR-M9120/8120/7120 are redesigned for more straight oil route inside the caliper, which results in better response to the lever trigger actuation (no matter which lever gen and group).

    + It's also easier to bleed (air-free) vs. Saint/XT ("old")/Zee, where the bleed nipple is parallel to the banjo and thus it's more complicated to bleed (air-free), because in the further part of the caliper some air can still be trapped.

    + One can adjust the direction of the banjo, which is really helpful vs. Saint/XT ("old")/Zee, where the banjo is in a fixed position and like 2 times longer. So depending on the frame caliper mounting, it can face pretty down and thus require the hose to be bent up pretty hard right after the banjo end.

    For modulation difference, they slightly change/rework the curve of the Servo-Wave of the levers of different gens/groups.

    The choice should be pretty obvious!

    Non-finned pads are all cross-compatible.
    Finned Saint/XT ("old")/Zee are not compatibe with XTR/XT (new)/SLX calipers.

    Resin pads for 4 pistons calipers contain more metal than those for 2 pistons calipers.
    + They transmit heat more to the disc/hub vs. metallic/sintered pads, that transmit the heat more to ceramic pistons and then to the oil, resulting in wandering bite point when braking for prolonged periods + very noisy in wet.

    Best 4 pistons resin pads for Shimano are Trickstuff 260 Power+.
    They have better initial bite power and better maintain it, when braking for prolonged periods + wear out less than Shimano resin.

    Right now I'm on Saint calipers + XTR trail (9120) levers with Trickstuff pads.
    I'm planning to move to new XT calipers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-xt-v-h-set-scheibenbremse-br-m8020-schwarz-satz-vr-hr-62177-267180-1557324936.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-xtr-enduro-scheibenbremse-br-m9120-mit-resinbelag-grau-hr-65396-237985-1545221598.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-p4pb5447205.jpg  

    Last edited by Groove_c; 06-04-2019 at 08:23 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    Deore, Zee, SLX, XT, Saint, XTR levers from newest generations and 2 previous gens are cross-compatible (with calipers) within the same group and cross-group. They share same diameter master cylinder and when pressing the trigger, the master piston travels the same distance.
    If you see/read reports about bigger master pistons in the levers for 4 pistons calipers or that more oil is needed to push 4 pistons is not true at all.

    The only thing that's true is that inside of larger calipers themself (with 4 pistons), there is more oil, which is to be expected.

    XTR BR-M9120, Saint BR-M820, XT BR-M8120/8020, SLX BR-M7120 and Zee BR-M640 have same size pistons (2x16 mm + 2x18 mm).
    P.S. - Magura MT5, MT7 and MT Trail share same caliper body and have 4x17 mm pistons.

    XTR BR-M9120, XT BR-M8120 and SLX BR-M7120 are redesigned for more straight oil root inside the caliper, which results in better response to the lever trigger actuation (no matter which lever gen and group).

    + It's also much easier to bleed (air-free) vs. Saint/XT ("old")/Zee, where the bleed nipple is parallel to the banjo and thus it's more complicated to bleed (air-free), because in the further part of the caliper some air can still be trapped.

    + One can adjust the direction of the banjo, which is really helpful vs. Saint/XT ("old")/Zee, where the banjo is in a fixed position and like 2 times longer. So depending on the frame caliper mounting, it can face pretty down and thus require the hose to be bent up pretty hard right after the banjo end.

    For modulation difference, they slightly change/rework the curve of the Servo-Wave of the levers of different gens/groups.

    The choice should be pretty obvious!

    What I don't know is if BR-M7120 have ceramic pistons (like XT), but judging by Zee having them, I would say yes, because Zee is SLX level.

    Non-finned pads are all cross-compatible.
    Finned Saint/XT ("old")/Zee are not compatibe with XTR/XT (new)/SLX calipers.

    Resin pads for 4 pistons calipers contain more metal than those for 2 pistons calipers.
    + They transmit heat more to the disc/hub vs. metallic/sintered pads, that transmit the heat more to ceramic pistons and then to the oil, resulting in wandering bite point when braking for prolonged periods + very noisy in wet.

    Best 4 pistons resin pads for Shimano are Trickstuff 260 Power+.
    They have better initial bite power and better maintain it, when braking for prolonged periods + wear out less than Shimano resin.

    Right now I'm on Saint calipers + XTR trail (9120) levers with Trickstuff pads.
    I'm planning to move to new XT or SLX calipers.
    Tnx for all the info, it was very helpful!

    The changes are not so dramatic, so i dont see any reason to upgrade from the "old" XT M8020 i got.

    PS, Maybe you also know piston sizes for Sram Guide and Code?

  9. #9
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    Groovec, the choice is easy? Do you mean get the m8120 as in the choice is easy. It's basically the last version xtr with new triggers correct?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy-Runs View Post
    ..

    PS, Maybe you also know piston sizes for Sram Guide and Code?
    As far as I know, the Guide uses 13mm and 14mm pistons, and the code uses 15mm and 16mm pistons.

    And, for reference/comparison (other brakes in the same price/category), the TRP Quadiem uses four 16mm pistons, while their new "Trail SL" brake uses 14mm/16mm pistons.

    I'm curious if the old versions prices will drop as places clear out inventory. I've got a old hardtail with some Tektro Aguria pro brakes that function fine, but are a giant pain in the butt to bleed. And I'd love to replace them with something with more power, are cheapish, and aren't awful to bleed.

  11. #11
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    It's 100% identical to XTR (aluminum), except steel pads retention allen head bolt vs. titanium flat screwdriver head bolt, which weights slightly more than the titanium one, but at least one always has allen keys during the ride and it's easier to unscrew.

    You can order only the caliper itself and keep your existing levers, hoses, 2x banjo O ring seals.

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...nbelag-p71478/

    You would also need to order a new banjo to caliper bolt.
    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...-M9120-p70208/
    or this
    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...-M9120-p70300/

    Pads clearance adjustment has never properly worked for Shimano.
    You don't need this damn bolt, really.

    Levers reach adjustment on the other hand can be handy.
    But you already have it.

    You could also wait a little bit more and buy the SLX BR-M7120 caliper which will be also 100% identical to XTR/XT, the only differences being not so shiny caliper painting and probably (but not 100% sure) resin pads without fins, pads retention done not by a bolt, but by a simple pin (like it is/was for SLX and Zee).
    But even if it's true, the allen head bolt can be bought separately/additionally as well.
    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...-M8000-p35456/

    So overall, this combo (BR-M7120 caliper(s) + allen head bolt(s)) would be the cheapest one, with same performance.

    Pictures of banjo bolts for 2 pistons SLX/XT, 4 pistons XTR/XT/SLX and 4 pistons Saint/Zee/XT.

    Pictures of pads retention bolts for XTR, XT/Saint and Deore/SLX/Zee.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-brake-hose-bolt-br-m985-m8000-sm-bh90-sb-universal-universal-46351-214541-1524494191.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-brake-hose-bolt-br-m9120-universal-universal-70208-254672-1552299473.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-546850-da8121-y8h098010.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-pad-retaining-bolt-br-m985-m9120-rs805-universal-universal-46715-186992-1500635914.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-pad-retaining-bolt-br-m785-m8000-m820-universal-universal-46356-215208-1524745057.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-safety-pin-br-m7000-m9000-m8000-m6000-rs785-silver-universal-33185-94427-1481268492.jpg  

    Last edited by Groove_c; 06-04-2019 at 04:42 AM.

  12. #12
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    Have found a picture of SLX BR-M7120 and as you can see, it has the steel pads retention allen head bolt (like XT) and also finned pads (like XT).

    I honestly prefer more the XT painting vs. this marine blue SLX painting.
    But I know it's done on purpose to widen the already extremely small gap between XT and SLX 4 pistons calipers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-shimano-slx-m7100-3.jpg  


  13. #13
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    Not to throw a monkey wrench into the system, but you missed one. Look up the other Shimano 4-pot brakes that have been getting good reviews (MT520) and let me know whether you think it's worth the increased cost of SLX/XT.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    I haven't missed anything. Here it's about XT. Not Deore BR-MT520.
    Deore have same diameter 4 ceramic pistons, but not possible to adjust hose position, not possible to fit finned pads and no pads bolt, but a pin.
    And they are also more difficult to bleed (air-free), like Saint/XT/Zee BR-M820/8020/640 vs. new XTR/XT/SLX BR-M9120/8120/7120.
    I don't see why should/would one downgrade to Deore.

  15. #15
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    Shimano has used similar to Sram 4 pistons liquid route design.
    Here one can clearly see the route (Sram) of the liquid and having the bleed port on the opposite end of the same side of the caliper as the banjo bolt is much better to bleed (air-free) vs. having the bleed port at the same end/place as the banjo bolt, but on the opposite side of the caliper. Simply physics.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-3_fb5b0635d8.jpeg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-pinza-freno-disco-shimano-xt-m8020-dos.jpg  

    Last edited by Groove_c; 06-04-2019 at 10:10 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    I haven't missed anything. Here it's about XT. Not Deore BR-MT520.
    Deore have same diameter 4 ceramic pistons, but not possible to adjust hose position, not possible to fit finned pads and no pads bolt, but a pin.
    And they are also more difficult to bleed (air-free), like Saint/XT/Zee BR-M820/8020/640 vs. new XTR/XT/SLX BR-M9120/8120/7120.
    I don't see why should/would one downgrade to Deore.
    LOL, what? Because they work the practically the same and cost less. But of course you didn't miss anything. Oooh, the hose is slightly less adjustable...and a pin? The horror!

    Since when is Shimano difficult to bleed? Oh, that's right. They're not and never have been so saying the new ones are easier than easy? Don't see the point.

    If Shimano's started copying SRAM, I'm gonna have to stay away. Sometimes I ride in temps above 90 degrees.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

  17. #17
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    Read the topic title onсe again. It's NOT about Deore.
    It's like when one asks for advise wether to buy a BMW or a Mercedes and you tell him to buy a Folkswagen.
    And show me where I've stated even once that Shimano are difficult to bleed.
    I've only stated that it's now easier to bleed them air-free.
    And that Shimano 4 pistons calipers are less easy to bleed (air-free) than 2 is a well known fact. (for those who own them!)
    And deciding to use similar liquid route, which is more optimal than the existing one has nothing to do with reliability or heat management.
    So your statements...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    Read the topic title onсe again. It's NOT about Deore.
    It's like when one asks for advise wether to buy a BMW or a Mercedes and you tell him to buy a Folkswagen.
    And show me where I've stated even once that Shimano are difficult to bleed.
    I've only stated that it's now easier to bleed them air-free.
    And that Shimano 4 pistons calipers are less easy to bleed (air-free) than 2 is a well known fact. (for those who own them!)
    And deciding to use similar liquid route, which is more optimal than the existing one has nothing to do with reliability or heat management.
    So your statements...
    Ooh, I'm soooo sorry for contaminating your pristine thread with all this talk about completely unrelated subject matter.

    What exactly is this new made up "air-free" terminology supposed to be about? They're either bled properly with no air in the system (air free, as it were) or they're not. With Shimano, it's easy to achieve this and has been since forever on ALL their brakes so nope, not buying it.

    If you wanna close your eyes to a product that performs the exact same job with nearly identical results, whatever dude. You choose XTR/XT/SLX, but oh noes, not Deore because...errr...who knows? You're entitled to your opinion, but stating it as fact doesn't make it so and when someone comes along with helpful info, you might consider just saying "thanks" rather than jumping down their throat and trying to belittle them.

    Welcome to my iggy list.
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    thanks for posting the good info Groove_c. I'm still waiting for the prices of the M9120 to come down. Looks like a good upgrade to my 2 piston XTR.

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    Looking forward for real life comparison between the 'old' XT M8020 and the new XT M8120 (as well as against XTR M9120 & Saints). All i know so far based on Shimano that the new version having 10% more power and having better modulation. More power and better modulation are always welcome, even thou i dont feel the XT M8020 missing in these departments.

    PS, I saw the last DH race, and looks like many Shimano riders using XTR M9120 instead of Saints, thats says a lot about these brakes..

  21. #21
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    There is no 10% perf increase vs. 'old' XT BR-M8020 or Saint/Zee. It's 10-17% vs. 2-piston calipers.
    There's more modulation and less weight, because studies have shown, that calipers only get hand warm vs. pads, pads' back-plates, pistons and mineral oil. So no need to have that massive caliper body like Saint/Zee. XT BR-M8020 is already a little bit lighter/smaller than Saint/Zee. With XTR/XT/SLX the caliper body was trimmed down further.
    Last edited by Groove_c; 06-11-2019 at 02:13 PM.

  22. #22
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    Not huge braking performance differences here, but the new 8120 lever shape is a little bit different, they have a support bridge thing similar to the xtr to avoid flex and also use the new ispec-ev mount.

    So the short thing there is if you were using ispec-ii then these brakes won't be compatible, supposedly the ev offers a lot more adjustment so if doing a full upgrade that could be nice.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    There is no 10% perf increase vs. 'old' XT BR-M8020 or Saint/Zee. It's 10-17% vs. 2-piston calipers.
    There's more modulation and less weight, because studies have shown, that calipers only get hand warm vs. pads, pads' back-plates, pistons and mineral oil. So no need to have that massive caliper body like Saint/Zee. XT BR-M8020 is already a little bite lighter/smaller than Saint/Zee. With XTR/XT/SLX the caliper body was trimmed down further.
    Tnx for the info!
    So not much difference between the old and the new XT 4 pistons...

  24. #24
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    XTR/XT/SLX calipers are lower than Saint/XT/Zee.
    I've found pictures with Saint/Zee pads inserted in the XTR caliper vs. new XTR/XT/SLX pads.

    No words needed here.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-20181206_210632.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-20181206_210641.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-20181206_210725.jpg  


  25. #25
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    I think it's more about to have same group levers/calipers to match the rest of the group on the bike and a little bit less weight. I don't really see how XTR and new XT and SLX calipers can outperform Saint/Zee with same pistons and virtually same pads. Same goes for XT BR-M8020.

  26. #26
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    Zee and XT BR-M8020 are more cost effective upgrades for those who don't care much about the look and weight, but are as powerful as the new Shimano 4-piston offers.

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    Absolutely more cost effective, also if you are upgrading and want to use integrated mounting systems they don't work together. IE 8020 brakes with 8120 shifter you need a complete clamp for shifter instead of using ispec as I understand it.

    As someone who has a complete 12 sp kit coming whenever it gets released matters a bit to me personally.
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  28. #28
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    You can always buy new XT/SLX. On par with Saint or cheaper.

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    Help

    Got the be-m8020 brake set with The ice tech pads they come with recently and the retention spring/clip that provides outward tension to the pads sometimes rubs against the rotor. It only happens if the top portion of the retention clip/spring (portion the retention bolt goes through) that separates the two halves of the spring is not centered towards the middle of the screw/caliper.

    On my other Shimano disc brakes which are the cheaper Deores versions there isnt much room for the top of the retention clip to have side to side play as there isnt much of a gap between the top of the pads and caliper.

    Has anyone else experienced this? The rotor is completely true and the caliper is perfectly aligned. No rubbing occurs if the clip is centered.

    Any feedback would be appreciated.

    I

  30. #30
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    Got the br-m8020 brake set with The ice tech pads they come with recently and the retention spring/clip that provides outward tension to the pads sometimes rubs against the rotor. It only happens if the top portion of the retention clip/spring (portion the retention bolt goes through) that separates the two halves of the spring is not centered towards the middle of the screw/caliper.

    On my other Shimano disc brakes which are the cheaper Deore versions there isnt much room for the top of the retention clip to have side to side play as there isnt much of a gap between the top of the pads and caliper.

    Has anyone else experienced this? The rotor is completely true and the caliper is perfectly aligned. No rubbing occurs if the clip is centered.

    Any feedback would be appreciated.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    You can always buy new XT/SLX. On par with Saint or cheaper.
    Thanks for your info in this thread, it's really useful.

    One of the most annoying issues I have with my M8020s is that lever flex and popping that comes from the mount. If I understand you correctly, the M9120/M8120 lever should be stiffer, but functionality the same aside from that, and is cross compatible with the M8020 caliper? Is that correct?

  32. #32
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    @Adodero
    Yes.
    But you need to consider that new levers have different shifters' mountings.
    If your shifters have separate from lever mountings (their own), then it doesn't matter.
    If your shifters are mounted onto the levers, then you will need to buy new shifters as well.

  33. #33
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    WOW noapathy, you're more than a bit of a tool. Calm down and be polite! The way you write is frustrating and annoying to read.

    Groove_c thanks for being useful and providing so much useful info.



    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Ooh, I'm soooo sorry for contaminating your pristine thread with all this talk about completely unrelated subject matter.

    What exactly is this new made up "air-free" terminology supposed to be about? They're either bled properly with no air in the system (air free, as it were) or they're not. With Shimano, it's easy to achieve this and has been since forever on ALL their brakes so nope, not buying it.

    If you wanna close your eyes to a product that performs the exact same job with nearly identical results, whatever dude. You choose XTR/XT/SLX, but oh noes, not Deore because...errr...who knows? You're entitled to your opinion, but stating it as fact doesn't make it so and when someone comes along with helpful info, you might consider just saying "thanks" rather than jumping down their throat and trying to belittle them.

    Welcome to my iggy list.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    @Adodero
    Yes.
    But you need to consider that new levers have different shifters' mountings.
    If your shifters have separate from lever mountings (their own), then it doesn't matter.
    If your shifters are mounted onto the levers, then you will need to buy new shifters as well.
    Thanks, that makes sense.

    Also, if I understand you correctly, the M8020 and M8120 caliper are mostly the same aside from the shape, which is more scaled down for weight on the M8120? So there is no change in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-80ned View Post
    WOW noapathy, you're more than a bit of a tool. Calm down and be polite! The way you write is frustrating and annoying to read.
    For real, he acts like being on his ignore list is some kind of punishment. He also counter downrepped me when I downrepped him for his contentious and pointless contributions to this thread.

  35. #35
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    @Adodero
    Weight and look.

    noapathy has also downrepped other users, because he was not ok with the fact that someone who owns XT level group didn't want to consider/downgrade to Deore and he also didn't like that someone pointed out that changing mineral oil route in the caliper had nothing to do with the heat management or caliper/lever quality, contrary to what he affirmed

  36. #36
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    I know this is a little older of a thread but I figured I would bring it back for a couple of questions. So right now between my Pivot Mach 6 and Pivot Firebird 29, I have the XT-8020 and the Saint M820 on the bikes respectively. I love my Saint on the Firebird for their power (I ride this bike mostly park with some trail). I am not really in love with the 8020's. They just don't have the same power (even after bleeds) that my Saints have. Would the 8120's provide more of a powerful feel and better modulation over the 8020's, or would I be better off throwing a Saint set on my Mach 6?
    2018 Pivot Firebird 29
    2018 Pivot Mach 6 Carbon
    2019 Pivot Vault

  37. #37
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    I really don't know if the new 8120 brakes will give you what you want. There's really not a lot of difference between the two. Since it's subjective, I guess you would just have to try them yourself.

    I'd say put Saints on. You really like their feel and power - might as well stick to what you prefer.

  38. #38
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    Hello Groove_c - THANK YOU for your generosity and expertise. I learned a lot reading through this thread. I am left here: Need to replace my horrid Avid Elixer brake set. But the shifters are integrated. (I think...) - - - Based on this thread, and being a novice/intermediate rider who doesn't race and is cash-poor... seems the best choice for a new brake set may be M8000, M8120, or Deore. BUT I got lost in all of the (awsesome) technical language. Can you recommend? I'm on an old Niner Jet9.

  39. #39
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    @The_Meeting_Guy you can buy SLX brakes (BR-M7120) or Deore (BR-MT520).

    I've found Servo-Wave picture from current XTR Trail lever (BL-M9120) vs. (BL-M9020/M988/M820) and looking at it, one can clearly notice much more linear/gradual Servo-Wave curve.
    So power doesn't rump up as brutally as it always did before, despite power remaining same.
    Results in more modulation, much closer to XTR Race levers (BL-M9100/9000/987).

    Fore those who previously had to combine race levers (with thinner triggers and without Servo-Wave) with trail calipers (Zee, Saint, XT), it's now over.

    Probably same goes for XT (BL-M8120) and SLX (BL-M7120) levers.
    But I'm not sure, since there one can't see the curve it takes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-sans-titre.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-bl-m9020-r_2.jpg  

    shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-p4pb54472051.jpg  

    Last edited by Groove_c; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:01 AM.

  40. #40
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    I've never really had any bite point wandering problems, since I ride mostly when it isn't really cold.
    Trail bike -> XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820).
    CX bike -> Saint levers (BL-M820) + XT calipers (BR-M875).

    Could reproduce this problem only when standing near my bike and depressing levers' triggers really quickly, without fully releasing them.

    When it gets cold, this is when already thick Shimano mineral oil gets even thicker and has more difficulties to flow back to levers' reservoirs through so called "sniffing openings", which are really small, compared to much bigger "filling opening", which remains blocked/closed by master cylinder piston, if you don't fully release levers' triggers. (see pictures attached)

    This results in calipers' pistons not able to (fully) retract as fast as levers' master cylinders' pistons do, followed by next levers' triggers depression, with calipers' pistons not being at their default position, which creates this bite point wandering.

    Now, with Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT), which is much less thick than Shimano's (10 WT) and much more consistent at any temps, my brakes feel even more consistent/solid.

    And no fading when very steep and long descents, with my 96 kg (naked) + clothes + backpack with 3 L water + tools + Scott Genius 150 mm.

    I use Putoline also for my Reverb Stealth seatpost, since it also uses 2.5 WT mineral oil (RockShox).

    Synthetic oil is of much better quality (vs. mineral oil), much more consistent and is cheaper, since here in Europe, 1 L Shimano mineral oil is almost 20 + additionally 10 for only 120 ml RockShox mineral oil for Reverb Stealth.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-ahr0chm6ly9mc3rhdgljms5tdgitbmv3cy5kzs92my8xos8xotezlze5mtm2nzytzmhmohzqcwf6czfnlxnoaw1hbm9zy2hu.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Groove_c; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:23 PM.

  41. #41
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    As one can see in this table, Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT) remains consistent at any temp, that's why in the column marked as "VI", the number is very high (468), whereas Shimano mineral oil is only at 98, because of huge properties' discrepancies at different temps.

    The lower the number in column marked as "VI", the less consistent is the fluid at different temps.

    Don't be scared because of "only" 180C, because it says that it withstands at least 180C, whereas Shimano mineral oil is limited to max 225C.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-sans-titreas.jpg  


  42. #42
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    Hey guys, building an e-bike, and researching parts as i need them.
    Can i use the BL-M8100 lever with BR-M520 caliper? From what read here its doable right?
    The price of that lever is only 10 bucks more than BL-M501, but has several adjust i consider worthy.
    Im considering using the BH-90 Hose too, from research it can be used in place of BH-59 and gives better modulation.

    If im wrong please correct me.

    Thanks in advance

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    As one can see in this table, Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT) remains consistent at any temp, that's why in the column marked as "VI", the number is very high (468), whereas Shimano mineral oil is only at 98, because of huge properties' discrepancies at different temps.

    The lower the number in column marked as "VI", the less consistent is the fluid at different temps.
    Any idea how this Putoline would actually work in very cold temperatures? My old M666 SLX brakes have smaller and smaller gap between pad and disc as the temperature gets colder. At ~-20 - -25C there's no gap and the brakes (and bike) becomes unusable. When the bike gets warmer, the gap returns to normal. How much is this due to the minearal oil properties and how much due to seals etc?

  44. #44
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    Is the Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT) available in the US? Quick search didn't bring up many "buy" links. Just curious - I've been ok with Shimano mineral fluid, but always looking for a bargain ( especially if there could be a performance benefit )

    Saw it on fleabay ... and maybe dirtbikebitz.com

    Also - they make 5W and 7.5W ... wouldn't one of those be closer to the Shimano mineral oil?

    Finally, any worries if using in a hot climate like the south west US?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    As one can see in this table, Putoline HPX R (2.5 WT) remains consistent at any temp, that's why in the column marked as "VI", the number is very high (468), whereas Shimano mineral oil is only at 98, because of huge properties' discrepancies at different temps.

    The lower the number in column marked as "VI", the less consistent is the fluid at different temps.

    Don't be scared because of "only" 180C, because it says that it withstands at least 180C, whereas Shimano mineral oil is limited to max 225C.

    Where can this be purchased?
    Is it actually a fork oil?

  46. #46
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    There is no fork or brakes specific oil.
    Only different viscosity at different temps and compatibility with seals, made of different materials.

    You have to search yourself if you can find it.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  47. #47
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    It's not logical to try to buy oil that has same properties or close to original Shimano oil. It won't cure wandering bite point problem, which is due to thickness of original Shimano oil and to small openings for oil to circulate from and to the reseevoir inside the lever.

    I don't have the numbers for 5 and 7.5W variants.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  48. #48
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    I've found the 2.5 but it says "fork oil" on the bottle.

  49. #49
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    This is the right one.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree View Post
    I've found the 2.5 but it says "fork oil" on the bottle.
    Did you locate a retailer in the US? All I found were vendors overseas.

  51. #51
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    I can somewhat confirm oil theory but still not 100% sure.
    I bled mine with Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5w and it seems to work great. At least better than LHM+ and the original oil. It is more of a "damper oil" which is quite thin (compared to original shimano and Total LHM+), it has VI more that 400 so it doesn't change its viscosity with temperatures too much. LHM+ also has high VI but it a bit more thicker by itself.

    Also, all that talk about oils and piston materials is great unless the lever doesn't leak under the master cylinder piston which could be the reason for some glitches


    ps: There are lot of similar threads and I'm a bit confused where to reply. I've been reading this part of the forum lately because I've ordered 7120 caliper and there is almost no info in the internet apart from couple of marketing articles. I was thinking about 520 caliper, but went for SLX, because I don't like the pin holding the pads and changing connector from banjo to straight would almost negate price difference.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwapik View Post
    Did you locate a retailer in the US? All I found were vendors overseas.
    Only found overseas

  53. #53
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    @graved1gger Fuchs Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5W is much thicker than Shimano original at all temps, except -40C.
    Viscosity index (VI) only indicates the consistency of oil at different temps, not how thick/thin it is.
    So it was a bad investment.

    I suppose you've only checked viscosity index and seen that it's 2.5W instead of 10W Shimano and made your decision.
    Shimano 10 W is thinner than this 2.5W )))
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-sans-titre78.jpg  


    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  54. #54
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    Hmmm, my mistake, but where did you found specs for original shimano?

    4 cst @ 20C not that much thicker (we ain't riding at -40C or +100C). And it feels a lot better.

    Aaaand it wasn't an investment it was an experiment with an oil which I already had and I like it the most of the 3 others

    I suppose you've only checked viscosity index and seen that it's 2.5W instead of 10W Shimano and made your decision.
    Nope, you suppose wrong.
    As I've wrote above - I had it already and decided to try.
    Well, to be honest I haven't seen the specs for shimano original, but I checked operational viscosity and I wasn't looking just for VI.

  55. #55
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    @graved1geer Fuchs Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5W is actually 22% thicker @ 20C than Shimano original 10W.
    100C is not when riding, but when braking.

    So Putoline HPX R 2.5W is the oil of choice for Shimano brakes, if you can find it or ready to pay for oversea shipment.

    Putoline is 104% thinner @ 20C than Silkolene.
    Putoline is 68% thinner @ 20C than Shimano.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    @graved1geer it's actually 22% thicker @ 20C.
    +100C is not when riding, but when braking.
    And Putoline is 26% thicker "while braking*" and you still like it better than shimano.
    Something doesn't add up


    But we need to define "braking", dragging brakes all the way down would heat the breaks and the fluid even more than 100C, but braking in a short bursts and releasing lever even for a couple of seconds would be enough to cool the fluid a lot, I'm not saying up to an air temp, but a lot.
    --
    Nevertheless, after I've changed the leaking levers (which is usually the primary reason for several shimano brakes glitches) I didn't have any problems either with shimano or silkolene oils, yet with silkolene it feels more consistent. I know a lot of people who use total lhm+ which also works, but the feeling is a bit off. As I've wrote before, I'm not 100% sure and everything is quite subjective but I like what I've got in the end.

    PS: for now I have other fluids to experiment with

  57. #57
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    Hm, I found Putoline locally and it is even a bit cheaper than other synthetic or semi-synthetic offerings.
    I'll give it a try a bit later.

  58. #58
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    @graved1gger Putoline HPX R 2.5W is fully synthetic, not semi-synthetic.
    Be cautious. There are also 5W and 7.5W variants, which you shouldn't buy.
    Where do you live?
    Quote Originally Posted by graved1gger View Post
    Putoline is 26% thicker "while braking*" and you still like it better than Shimano.
    Something doesn't add up
    The problem with Shimano is at ambient and sub-ambient temps.
    So I don't really look at 100C numbers.
    But it shouldn't be very low as well. Otherwise it's almost like water, which is bad, because the boiling point is lower.
    So 26% thicker @ 100C Putoline vs. Shimano is even better.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  59. #59
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    I'm going to order the Putoline HPX 2.5 and give it a try. All three of my bikes have Shimano brakes so it will be worth the investment.
    How concerned should I be with draining the Shimano fluid from the system? Will the synthetic Putoline play nice with the little amount of Shimano fluid left in the system?
    Or will it be fine just purging the Shimano fluid out with the Putoline?

  60. #60
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    I've just opened the bleed port at the caliper and depressed the lever to let as much of Shimano oil out as possible and also used the syringe, connected to the caliper to pull out some more. Just in case if. Because I don't know how both can mix together.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

  61. #61
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    You could also try making on a small cup 50/50 mix with shimano and putoline and see what it does overnight. Most likely they'll just mix and nothing happens, but if it reacts somehow, it is probably quite quickly visible. If it somehow reacts, maybe safer to try draining old oil out as much as possible...

  62. #62
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    got myself a bottle. but I'm too lazy to experiment until the caliper arrives
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shimano BR-M8120 vs BR-M8020 shimanos new 4 piston brake set-dsc_20191008_161418_790.jpg  


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    You would think that if fixing the wandering bite point problem was just a matter of oil weight then Shimano would have addressed that by now. One would hope anyway....

  64. #64
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    It is.
    Because me and hundreds/thousands of people using Putoline for some people already more than 3 years in cold, have reported significant improvrments.
    But it's also due to the size of holes of the lever, between the system and reservoir.
    Not only oil weight.
    By now, Shimano has produced so much of this oil and has all their fabrics lines equipped with specific machines for specific size and shape pieces, that it's economically not so simple to just throw away all the oil (loose a lot of money) and change all the machinery.

    But this is what should be done, ideally.

    And also acknowledging the problem would be a very big image hit for them.
    Since the problem exists since several generations and is so widely spred.

    It means a lot of recalls and returns by all the shops and customers.

    So better (for them) not to acknowledge and then release revisions or new models/generations, where it's corrected and continue to deny.

    Just my 50 cents

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + Saint calipers (BR-M820)

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