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  1. #1
    I'm Done
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    Props to Magura

    I have no affiliation with Magura, but I wanted to give them props for using mineral oil as opposed to dot fluid in their brakes. Man that dot is some nasty stuff. I don't want to be anywhere near it!

    Good job Magura. You've made me a devoted customer by making a great product that doesn't use toxic stuff where it's not necessary.

  2. #2
    MEGALOMANIAC
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    I agree..
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durga
    I have no affiliation with Magura, but I wanted to give them props for using mineral oil as opposed to dot fluid in their brakes. Man that dot is some nasty stuff. I don't want to be anywhere near it!

    Good job Magura. You've made me a devoted customer by making a great product that doesn't use toxic stuff where it's not necessary.
    whats wrong with DOT fluid?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by brake jack
    whats wrong with DOT fluid?

    This just seems funny coming from a person with the handle "brake jack" , just saying.

    Personally Ive been a mineral oil fan for many years now. Although DOT has been making some headway in my mind with its ability to better handle heat and that most systems now have a far better bleeding process than the old hayes purples I used to use which were messy as hell.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by brake jack
    whats wrong with DOT fluid?
    the hippies don't like it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by brake jack
    whats wrong with DOT fluid?
    For me, it's because it's toxic, flammable and corrosive and mineral oil brake junk isn't.

    I'm not saying I'd put Magura Blood on my salad, but at least it won't intrinsically hurt me, or my cats.

    Being that there are wonderful brake systems using both, it's one of the real choosing points for me since I do all my own work and I know better than to think I'll NEVER spill stuff.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by brake jack
    whats wrong with DOT fluid?
    God kills a kitten every time someone has to bleed their brakes.

    Oh, and DOT fluid is not good with crackers.

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=the-one1]God kills a kitten every time someone has to bleed their brakes.

    [QUOTE]

    funny I always heard God always frowned upon masturbation.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear
    For me, it's because it's toxic, flammable and corrosive and mineral oil brake junk isn't.

    I'm not saying I'd put Magura Blood on my salad, but at least it won't intrinsically hurt me, or my cats.

    Being that there are wonderful brake systems using both, it's one of the real choosing points for me since I do all my own work and I know better than to think I'll NEVER spill stuff.

    DOT fluid is not toxic. it is harmful, but so is mineral oil, and other gazillion things with use every day.
    its not that flammable - you can't light it with a lighter, for instance.
    also, DOT is water soluble. meaning, if you spill it, you just run a wet towel over it, and its clean. try cleaning spilled mineral oil - no fun at all.

  10. #10
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    So I did some more digging, because I hate it when I have wrong information in my head (thanks for spurring me).

    DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 are polyethyline glycol based fluids. They absorb water, do not absorb air, and are likely damaging to paint. Interestingly enough, polyethyline glycol is used in many laxatives, make-up, and other consumer products that are used both internally and externally. Once enough water is absorbed by the fluid it must be changed out.

    Most every reference I find to the glycol based fluids still claim they are caustic, but it's all www based stuff so who knows the veracity of the info?

    Hayes brakes claims DOT fluid absorbs water at 2-3% a year, but I can't find anything quickly that denotes at what point the fluid has had enough chemical change to need to be changed out. Car manus seem to be advocating a yearly brake system flush but I don't think I know anyone who does that (I don't). I don't see anything on any of the bike maint. pages talking about that either, guess they go by feel (e.g. it sucks, let's change the fluid).

    For the record, I just changed the hose and fluid on a 7 yr old Magura brake that had never been bled. I think it feels better, but who knows whether that was the new fluid or the replaced hose - likely a bit of both?

    The biggest tangible difference between 3/4/5.1 is the boiling points. 5.1 > 4 > 3. If you manage to boil the fluid from braking you're probably going to have a hard stop as the brake locks-up on you. ;^)

    DOT 5 is a silicone based fluid. It does NOT absorb water, it DOES absorb air (so don't leave a container lying around open longer than necessary), it does NOT attack paints and such. I have no idea if it's used in any products intended for human consumption but I kind of doubt it. If enough air is absorbed by the fluid it must be changed out.

    Most of the automotive industry uses DOT fluid for brake systems, but not all. At least some BMW and Jaguar vehicles have used mineral-oil based fluid. I guess there's no consensus in that industry either on "which is better."

    The mineral oil based stuff (e.g. Magura, Shimano) seems similar to the DOT 5 stuff, but I don't know if it absorbs air or not, and can't seem to find out. I know it doesn't absorb water.

    I did a quick scan of bike brake manu www info ...

    Avid uses DOT 4 or 5.1.

    Hayes uses DOT 3 and 4 (but could probably take 5.1).

    Formula uses DOT 4.

    Hope uses DOT 5.1.

    Magura & Shimano use mineral oil based stuff, they don't really talk about fluid specifications though.

    It's curious to me that no-one seems to use DOT 5 in the bike industry. It's glycol-based or mineral-oil-based.

  11. #11
    Magura N. America Svc Mgr
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    Good discussion and thanks for the props!

    DOT 5 is a silicone based fluid and doesn't absorb moisture, which is good and bad.
    It was apparently formulated for the military due to its resistance to absorb moisture.
    Apparently one of the difficulties of the fluid is the bleed and many folks mention this.
    They recommend a series of bleeds to assure no air.
    Also, If moisture enters the system someway, instead of being absorbed, the water will pool at the lowest point and possibly cause corrosion.
    Also, You can absolutely not mix with any other DOT fluids due to coagulation and clotting.

    Magura's mineral based fluid has a boiling temp of around 350 degree F. That should stay fairly stable throughout its brake or fluid life due to its resistance to absorb moisture and brake down.
    Both of you guys are correct about the fluids and remember everything we touch is somewhat absorbed into our bodies so its all bad but Mineral is safer and less caustic than any DOT.
    Again, thanks for the props Durga!
    Jude

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear
    So I did some more digging, because I hate it when I have wrong information in my head (thanks for spurring me).

    DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 are polyethyline glycol based fluids. They absorb water, do not absorb air, and are likely damaging to paint. Interestingly enough, polyethyline glycol is used in many laxatives, make-up, and other consumer products that are used both internally and externally. Once enough water is absorbed by the fluid it must be changed out.

    Most every reference I find to the glycol based fluids still claim they are caustic, but it's all www based stuff so who knows the veracity of the info?

    Hayes brakes claims DOT fluid absorbs water at 2-3% a year, but I can't find anything quickly that denotes at what point the fluid has had enough chemical change to need to be changed out. Car manus seem to be advocating a yearly brake system flush but I don't think I know anyone who does that (I don't). I don't see anything on any of the bike maint. pages talking about that either, guess they go by feel (e.g. it sucks, let's change the fluid).

    For the record, I just changed the hose and fluid on a 7 yr old Magura brake that had never been bled. I think it feels better, but who knows whether that was the new fluid or the replaced hose - likely a bit of both?

    The biggest tangible difference between 3/4/5.1 is the boiling points. 5.1 > 4 > 3. If you manage to boil the fluid from braking you're probably going to have a hard stop as the brake locks-up on you. ;^)

    DOT 5 is a silicone based fluid. It does NOT absorb water, it DOES absorb air (so don't leave a container lying around open longer than necessary), it does NOT attack paints and such. I have no idea if it's used in any products intended for human consumption but I kind of doubt it. If enough air is absorbed by the fluid it must be changed out.

    Most of the automotive industry uses DOT fluid for brake systems, but not all. At least some BMW and Jaguar vehicles have used mineral-oil based fluid. I guess there's no consensus in that industry either on "which is better."

    The mineral oil based stuff (e.g. Magura, Shimano) seems similar to the DOT 5 stuff, but I don't know if it absorbs air or not, and can't seem to find out. I know it doesn't absorb water.

    I did a quick scan of bike brake manu www info ...

    Avid uses DOT 4 or 5.1.

    Hayes uses DOT 3 and 4 (but could probably take 5.1).

    Formula uses DOT 4.

    Hope uses DOT 5.1.

    Magura & Shimano use mineral oil based stuff, they don't really talk about fluid specifications though.

    It's curious to me that no-one seems to use DOT 5 in the bike industry. It's glycol-based or mineral-oil-based.
    The brakes shouldn't lock up when the fluid boils/expands. Brakes are open system, so they should have room in the reservoir to account for fluid expansion. But if it is insufficient, it can cause dragging, and in extreme cases: lock-up.

    DOT5 often results in a spongy feel. Inability to absorb moisture could results in pockets of moisture in the system. This could cause corrosion as mentioned. It could also vaporize when the system gets hot, causing the same symptoms as air in the system.

    DOT 5.1 is usually compatible with all 3/4 fluids. But the system will only perform as well as the lowest performing fluid. There are certain high performance fluids (DOT 4 such as Motul RBF600) that are incompatible with magnesium components.

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