HELP Which Brakesto buy ???- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    HELP Which Brakesto buy ???

    Im building up an NRS for XC riding I cant figure out which way to go with the brakes.

    I haven't heard many bad things about any of the following brakes

    Avid Juicy-are these brakes an open or closed system?

    Hope Mini Mono

    Magura Marta SL

    they all seem to be relatively comparable in weight and price.
    does any have a distinct advantage/disavantage over the other?

    what about the avid mechanicals it seems to be a better choice in terms of weight and price, what about performance vs. a hydro?

  2. #2
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    Not the same in weight, and I'll give you what I've gleaned on performance.

    First off, if you're concerned at all about weight, the Avid mechs are not going to be to your liking. The specs you read on them are probably just for rotor and caliper, you have to add brake lever, cable, and possibly mounting bolts and CPS adapter to that. The actual total is more like 1000gm per pair if I recall.
    The Marta SL is going to be the lightest at about 650gm per pair. The Hope Mono Mini next at about 780gm per pair, and the actual on the Juicy's is more like 850gm per pair I think.

    Performance wise, the only dissapointing comments for the most part are on the Mono Minis, but mostly in how they compare to their previous models, though it may be too soon to tell, some pads can take weeks to fully bed in for full power. The only negative I've heard on the Juicy's, is pad chatter on the edges of their wavy rotor, but can be cured by filing the edge of the rotor smooth.

    My personal fave is the Marta, although I chose not to go with their SL as it's only about 14gm per pair lighter now that the Marta uses the wavy rotor too. Not enough to warrant spending $75 bucks more I think, unless you really want carbon levers, which are a bit stiffer, and easier on your fingers in cold weather, as well as a smoother, more ergo lever shape. According to the Magura manual, the Martas do not have automatic pad wear adjusters, but I don't hear anyone complaining about this, you can adjust the pads yourself manually as needed, and it's not too difficult. Although the Martas are powerfull for their weight, you do not have the option of a rotor larger than 160 as with the others, but this is largely dependent on body weight. Most average weight riders riding XC are fine with them. Some other cool things about Magura are, magnetic pad retention (no funky clips/springs), 2mm thick rotor (others except for Hope, use 1.7-1.8), 5 year no leak warranty (as long as you use their pads), great customer service, Magura cult website with FAQ and member clasifieds/forums. Magura actually has pretty reasonable rotor and pad pricing despite what some have said. I was quoted $25 per wheel for the pads by them, many have said they paid $30, but I guess it depends where you get them.
    Note: Although I don't dislike any of the others, it should be pointed out that both Hope Mono Minis and Avid Juicys are brand new designs, where as the Marta has been out a few years now. The things I don't like about the new designs are the narrower rotor rim profile that Hope went to (I actually rode and liked their previous model), and the rough rotor edge thing with the Avids. I'd say of the two, the rough edges are an easier issue for either Avid or the customer to deal with, but it doesn't speak well for Avids R&D and QC considering how long it took them to finally come out with them. I'm not sure whether the narrower rim profile, pad compound, or just breakin time on the Hope's is the problem, but I've heard a few people say they are not as powerfull as they'd like them to be. With a narrower rim profile, they had to go with a narrower pad, but if the piston diameter is still the same, Hope or someone like EBC may make a wider pad to use with them. Of course this means going to the original type rotor, which Hope may or may not still make for the original Mini.

    If you scour the brake forums you will find posts about sticking pistons, bleeding issues, etc. with Martas, but this is typical for most brands, it's how well you're supported by the Manufacturer that makes all the difference, and Maggie does it well.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 01-30-2004 at 10:31 PM.

  3. #3
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    My tuppence halfpenny....

    Gnarly .... do you mean narrower braking surface when you talk about 'rim profile'?? ie. there is less disk surface area in contact with the pads, therefore lesser braking performance. If so, you are the first person I've heard of to mention this...

    I have heard nothing detrimental about the Hope Mono Minis's on any of the UK forums (where HOPE usage is (probably) higher). The consensus(?) seems to be that the mono's are superior to the orig mini's because they have a one-piece body, indeed Speedgoat sell a clamp for the orig mini's to minimise the body separation.

    I think Hope moved away from wavy discs due to threat of litigation from Balfa who claim to have invented the idea(maybe Avid/Magura will have to follow suit???). I never liked them personally as you could feel 'the wave', and am not convinced they help the cleaning properties that are claimed for them.

    I do like the idea of the adjstability of the Avids, just not keen on the visuals.... thos levers look distinctly agricultural(IMHO) :-)

    cheers

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    According to the Magura manual, the Martas do not have automatic pad wear adjusters .
    Magura hasn't had a non self-adjusting brake in their lineup since 2001 (the old Louise) and the Marta has NEVER been non self-adjusting.

    Mike T. (mcm # 717)

  5. #5
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    OOOps, correct you are, my bad, read the Catalog wrong...

    ...this is good news to me though, as I just ordered a bike with them.

  6. #6
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    First off, back up and reread my post, I'm merely stating what I don't like about them, didn't say they were worse than any others, just said a few people I've heard from (two on mtbr, one at Titus UK) say they aren't an improvement over last years. I also said that this may very well be due to the pads not having been bedded in yet, this the Titus UK guy said too. Yes when I said narrower rim profile of the rotor I meant a smaller brake track, and their pad is now narrow and long. I may be wrong, but I just think a pad that has it's mass closer to the center of the piston would be a more powerfull setup. It is my feeling that narrow rim rotors may be more likely to warp, but this is just conjecture on my part. Don't panic, give it some time, they're probably better performing than first impressions would indicate, as many brakes are. The mono caliper is indeed a stiffer design, the rest may fall into place after thorough breakin as well.
    No, Galfer is the company that invented wavy rotors, not Balfa, and Magura is the only company liscenced to use them last I heard. You may hear some manufacturers say they just decided to go back to round, but quite often it's the courts telling them to or pay up. I'm not sure if Avid decided to pay royalties, but the wavy litigation could have been part of the delay on the Juicies. Hayes has been saying for some time they were going to have some wavies for their Mag Plus, but I've yet to see them. I have heard from a reliable source, that is much respected on these boards, that the Martas have become a more powerfull brake, since they went to the wavy rotor, and as well that they don't suffer from pad chatter like some wavy equiped systems do. I liken Magura's use of the wavy to the better quality frame manufacturers out there using and paying royalties on the Horst Link. They've not only seen a good thing, but respected it, and implemented it without leaving the customer having to tweak it to get it to work right. Only Magura, out of all the bicycle brake manufacturers, has extensive experience in making brakes for sport vehicles very similar in nature to mt bikes, the motocross scene. OK, I'm done harping now, cheers, and may what ever you buy bring you enjoyment.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 01-31-2004 at 09:00 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    Some other cool things about Magura are, magnetic pad retention (no funky clips/springs)
    Is this a good feature? I seem to remember that Avid mechs used to have magnetic pad retention but scrapped them for springs because heat generated when braking actually affected the magnets badly. I wonder if prolonged use of the Maguras result in any issues with the magnets.

  8. #8
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    Magura has been using magnets for some time now,....

    Quote Originally Posted by Juramentado
    Is this a good feature? I seem to remember that Avid mechs used to have magnetic pad retention but scrapped them for springs because heat generated when braking actually affected the magnets badly. I wonder if prolonged use of the Maguras result in any issues with the magnets.
    ...and I've only heard of one or two cases on older ones where the magnets came loose (but didn't fall out) and had to be superglued into place. The magnets themselves were not damaged, and I've never heard of them being ruined by heat. The pistons on the Martas are Delrin (the stuff nylon webbing strap buckles are made of) with a recess in it where the magnet is placed. I don't know how Avid's magnets were made, but I've read a few posts of people that used them that wanted Avid to bring them back, they're simple and reliable if made right. After seeing Magura's success with magnets, I'm sure Avid has probably considered it. All brake manufacturers have at least some design problems. Magura with their one sided pistons, and older, thicker brake fluid, as well as possibly the type of attachment method of their magnets. What makes a company great though, is their willingness to admit to their design mistakes promptly, and do running changes so the customers are assured a quality product. I think Magura has done this well, and I hope they have success with their suspension line too, they deserve it.

    NOTE: To be honest, you guys are kind of killing time getting advice from me on them, as I have only gleaned what I'm saying. Mike T already pointed out, I've botched the info on the automatic pad wear adjusters, though I'm glad he chimed in. Here's a link to his Magura Cult Homepage, it's very handy for times when you may not be able to contact Magura (like weekends), and no doubt helps Magura field some questions. You don't have to be a member to view the text, but you might need to for chatting with other members. Don't get me wrong, Magura has excellent customer service themselves, this is just icing on the cake, I always got courteous, informative help from them when I had their hydraulic rim brakes.

    http://www.execulink.com/~dtierney/w...a/contents.htm
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 02-01-2004 at 12:37 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    ...and I've only heard of one or two cases on older ones where the magnets came out and had to be superglued back in place. The magnets themselves were not damaged, and I've never heard of them being ruined by heat. The pistons on the Martas are Delrin (the stuff nylon webbing strap buckles are made of) with a recess in it where the magnet is placed. I don't know how Avid's magnets were made, but I've read a few posts of people that used them that wanted Avid to bring them back, they're simple and reliable if made right. After seeing Magura's success with magnets, I'm sure Avid has probably considered it. All brake manufacturers have at least some design problems. Magura with there one sided pistons, and older, thicker brake fluid, as well as possibly the type of attachment method of their magnets. What makes a company great though, is their willingness to admit to their design mistakes promptly, and do running changes so the customers are assured a quality product. I think Magura has done this well, and I hope they have success with their suspension line too, they deserve it.

    NOTE: To be honest, you guys are kind of killing time getting advice from me on them, as I have only gleaned what I'm saying. Mike T already pointed out, I've botched the info on the automatic pad wear adjusters, though I'm glad he chimed in. Here's a link to his Magura Cult Homepage, it's very handy for times when you may not be able to contact Magura (like weekends), and no doubt helps Magura field some questions. You don't have to be a member to view the text, but you might need to for chatting with other members. Don't get me wrong, Magura has excellent customer service themselves, this is just icing on the cake, I always got courteous, informative help from them when I had their hydraulic rim brakes.

    http://www.execulink.com/~dtierney/w...a/contents.htm
    gnarly-

    thanks for all the info between this and the geometry questions i almost feel like your building this bike for me...lol

    thanks again

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