Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.

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  2. #2
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    Does this have anything to do with the blurred brakes in the instagram photo from March?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg2GQp9l2uQ/

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobba View Post
    Does this have anything to do with the blurred brakes in the instagram photo from March?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg2GQp9l2uQ/
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  4. #4
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    Interested. What can you compare them to?

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Interested. What can you compare them to?

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    I can compare them to Saint and XT. With the stock pads they are similar power for the same lever squeeze.

    With the metallic pads fitted they scare people who normally ride Saint and XT.
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  6. #6
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    Sounds fantastic, everything I want in a brake. As with everything though the judgement shall wait until it's reliability is known.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    Sounds fantastic, everything I want in a brake. As with everything though the judgement shall wait until it's reliability is known.
    Lifetime leak proof warranty:
    http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/support/

    My original hayes mags (2000) are still working. The rear has slow fluid loss somewhere. Probably should replace the hose.
    I regularly ride my 2006 HFX Nine (split clamp version). In 12 years I haven't actually bled the back brake. The front has had new pads twice and rotor change once. It was bled with those pad changes.
    I've been on Hayes Prime Feb 2015 to Dec 2017 and they've been rock solid with no maintenance in 3 years. Still in use.
    But they don't have the power or lever feel the Dominion has.
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  8. #8
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    The key think for me in regards to disc brakes are 1) how easy are they to set up; 2) how trouble free are they; 3) how easy are they do simple maintenance on; 4) and how much do they cost?

    XT brakes are cheap, are ridiculously easy to set up, are trouble free and dead easy to do simple maintenance on.

    From the review, it looks like 1 looks to be a good. Will need to see how 2 -4 play out. The cross-hair feature seems fantastic.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    The key think for me in regards to disc brakes are 1) how easy are they to set up; 2) how trouble free are they; 3) how easy are they do simple maintenance on; 4) and how much do they cost?

    XT brakes are cheap, are ridiculously easy to set up, are trouble free and dead easy to do simple maintenance on.
    All those boxes are ticked. Except the performance is even better. Especially at the extreme end as DOT fluid doesn't gas out when it gets hot. So they don't need regular bleeding.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc3LcT0l...raftsuspension

    *edit*
    RRP on the Dominion is $US230 per end plus rotors/adapters. The new rotor is $US50.
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  10. #10
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    Looking to replace my formulas for a new build and soon. Anybody know how much the sintered pads will cost? And when are they available?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  11. #11
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    The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Looking to replace my formulas for a new build and soon. Anybody know how much the sintered pads will cost? And when are they available?
    They come with two sets of pads. Semi-metallic and sintered metallic. The semi-metallic is on par with the best brakes out there. The sintered metallic will scare most riders.

    I'll should have shipping info when everyone gets back from Eurobike.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.
    Yes, it's not guesswork, but it is a nuisance aligning the caliper. Honestly the main trouble comes from untrue rotors, but I'm glad to see the grub screws anyway.

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  14. #14
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    One thing I don't understand:

    On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.

    On this new brake the reservoir is underneath the cylinder. With the cylinder the highest part of the system, any air will stay there and you've got mushy brakes.

    Am I missing something here as it seems like a fairly big oversight?

  15. #15
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    Based on the cutaway view and the shape of some dials/levers, these look pretty similar to some '07 Code's I have. I'm slowly in the process of rebuilding them, but they were phenomenal brakes and will be used for a long time.

    I'm very excited to try these Dominions!!! My old trek 8500LT (2000 era) had the Hayes brakes on them, and they rocked it for 8 years with some serious neglect. Shame I wasn't as into cycling when they finally stopped working, those 22mm mount calipers are frequently asked for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    One thing I don't understand:

    On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.

    On this new brake the reservoir is underneath the cylinder. With the cylinder the highest part of the system, any air will stay there and you've got mushy brakes.

    Am I missing something here as it seems like a fairly big oversight?
    They did say they can be flipped to work on either side 🤔

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    They did say they can be flipped to work on either side 樂
    That might be why they've designed it that way. By making the lever symmetrical the end user can put them on either side and Hayes cut costs by not having to make left and right levers!

    Shimano levers are less elegant looking than many, due to that lump of a reservoir sitting on top of the lever, but they have reasons for it and it contributes to the ease of use and reliability of the brakes. In use, the brakes will 'self-bleed' and are very tolerant of air in the system. You can run the brakes with air in them for years and no experience any ill effects. Contrast that with Avid brakes, which had a tiny reservoir and were a total pain.

    On these new Hayes brakes the highest point in the system is here, were I've put the arrow, exactly were you do not want it. Sure, you can flip the levers but I'd rather have a brake that can tolerate an imperfect bleed and still function.

    Hayes are back.  Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.-p4pb16077149.jpg

    Like I said, maybe I'm missing something? I'm happy to be corrected but to be it seems to me like they've sacrificed reliability to save money and make a nicer looking lever.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    That might be why they've designed it that way. By making the lever symmetrical the end user can put them on either side and Hayes cut costs by not having to make left and right levers!

    Shimano levers are less elegant looking than many, due to that lump of a reservoir sitting on top of the lever, but they have reasons for it and it contributes to the ease of use and reliability of the brakes. In use, the brakes will 'self-bleed' and are very tolerant of air in the system. You can run the brakes with air in them for years and no experience any ill effects. Contrast that with Avid brakes, which had a tiny reservoir and were a total pain.

    On these new Hayes brakes the highest point in the system is here, were I've put the arrow, exactly were you do not want it. Sure, you can flip the levers but I'd rather have a brake that can tolerate an imperfect bleed and still function.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Like I said, maybe I'm missing something? I'm happy to be corrected but to be it seems to me like they've sacrificed reliability to save money and make a nicer looking lever.
    I think you're over thinking this. If any company knows about disc brakes, it's Hayes. I think they invented the mountain bike disc brake. It's a cutaway that's shown also, so maybe some part of reservoir is still at the high point.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I think you're over thinking this.
    Possibly. Like I said, I be happy to hear my thoughts contradicted but I certainty wouldn't assume that because they've made brakes for a while they make the best ones. Look at SRAM/Avid!

  20. #20
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    I really hope these will be nice. Based on what I have read so far, they do look promising and a good fit for me.

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  21. #21
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    Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?
    I don't understand that either. I think it may be safety related. People might think you can use any mineral oil in their brakes and buy stuff that is not safe. Any DOT brake fluid will be safe.

  23. #23
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    Hope these new hayes sintered pads are under $25-35 a pop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I don't understand that either. I think it may be safety related. People might think you can use any mineral oil in their brakes and buy stuff that is not safe. Any DOT brake fluid will be safe.
    Surface area..these are almost double compared to say a formula sintered pad..going to get HAF with an over 200lb rider, that's my guess, think the 5.1 is the silicone bases fluid iirc more heat resistant?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Surface area..these are almost double compared to say a formula sintered pad..going to get HAF with an over 200lb rider, that's my guess, think the 5.1 is the silicone bases fluid iirc more heat resistant?
    Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...

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  25. #25
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    I've never used 5.1 on MTB..

    5.1 is not compatible w/ the other fluids Mr Pig (least I'm pretty sure)..think you're correct on the other DOT fluids being able to get along/mix iirc

    *edit*
    You're correct. I was thinking of the silicone version that is not compatible w/ the other DOT fluids
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...
    I think these Hayes brakes are DOT4 compatible?

    Shimano mineral oil brakes are clearly capable of dealing with the heat, although the special rotors ect suggest it is more borderline than they might admit! My point is that you can buy 'mineral oil' that is not suitable for use in brakes. I've seen guys come on here and ask for cheaper alternatives to Shimano mineral oil. Mental I know but some muppet somewhere has probably put cooking oil or something into his Shimano brakes!

    If you go into an auto parts store and buy DOT4 it will be fine. Even the cheaper brands have to meet standards that ensure it is safe so you cannot buy the wrong DOT4.

    Also, if DOT fluid does have higher heat resistance it makes designing the brakes easier. Shimano engineer their brakes to put more heat into the rotor, they put fins on the pads etc. They clearly have to be careful about how the brake manages the heat. If you use a fluid that can take more heat you don't need to bother with that. Not as much anyway.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think these Hayes brakes are DOT4 compatible?.
    Thought I read they were 5.1..nevermind what I said then, was thinking of the incompatible silicone version
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    The grub screws on the caliper is pretty trick.
    Hayes have used them since about 2012 and have them patented. While they're fantastic for fine tuning the initial setup. The real time saver is removing and refitting. For example for fork maintenance.

    The brake goes back on exactly as it came off and alignment is preserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    One thing I don't understand:

    On Shimano brakes the reservoir sits on top of the piston cylinder. In practice that means that if there is any air in the system it will find its way up into the reservoir and the brake will work perfectly.

    On this new brake the reservoir is underneath the cylinder. With the cylinder the highest part of the system, any air will stay there and you've got mushy brakes.

    Am I missing something here as it seems like a fairly big oversight?
    Hayes have made flippable levers since the late 90's. It makes sense on every level from rental fleets (customers from LHD vs RHD countries) to selling new brakes pre-bled across the planet to design, manufacture and stocking of parts. There is one lever assembly.

    I've been riding them since 2000. Never had an issue with air getting in.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Why suddenly the resurgence of DOT fluids instead of mineral oil? Weren't their last iteration (RADAR I think) using the mineral oil?
    Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.

    Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.

    DOT fluid brakes used on exactly the same rides stay rock solid. Which is why DOT is used for automotive.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Exotic dot5.1 does get into very high boiling points. Way higher than mineral or even dot4. I'm not sure if that's even an issue with mtb brakes though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    5.1 is not compatible w/ the other fluids Mr Pig (least I'm pretty sure)..think you're correct on the other DOT fluids being able to get along/mix iirc
    DOT 5.1 isn't technically it's own classification. It's a name used by some manufacturers for their Super DOT4 fluids. It's the highest performing bracket. But some manufacturers will have DOT4 fluids comparable with other manufacturers DOT 5.1

    DOT 5 Silicone is the only odd one out.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Thought I read they were 5.1
    Not sure but I thought I read they can use either.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Not sure but I thought I read they can use either.
    Dot 4, DOT 5.1. Same same.
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  31. #31
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    They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.
    I say the same while looking at carbon bikes!
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    They look real nice, but at the price point they are at ($5-600 for a set), that's pretty steep.
    Made in America. It's like buying Hope stuff here in the UK, you're not just buying the product, there is a certain pride of ownership attached too.

    Sometimes it's nice just to have something that's different. You know, when all the guys on the trail have Shimano and the guys walking bikes to the car-park have SRAM ;0)

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Made in America. It's like buying Hope stuff here in the UK, you're not just buying the product, there is a certain pride of ownership attached too.

    Sometimes it's nice just to have something that's different. You know, when all the guys on the trail have Shimano and the guys walking bikes to the car-park have SRAM ;0)
    Really, made in America? I actually did not know that but that does change my view of the price point. Thanks for pointing that out!
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Really, made in America?
    Actually, you'd better check that. Maybe they're just an American company but the brakes are made elsewhere. I could be wrong on that.

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    Is that a proper seal on the push rod to keep crud out of the master cylinder?

  37. #37
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    Bump. Anyone have these yet? Universal Cycles has them in stock, $220ea and they have 15% off, comes out to ~$375 for a set.

    I've been waiting for a while to dump my XTs, I'm so tired of the pumping and the rear getting squishy all the time. I don't like how cheap the levers feel either.

    Formula Curas had my eye for a while, and they're cheaper... but I really like the design of these Hayes and the reviews so far are fantastic. They're sooo ugly though :P

  38. #38
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    I respect Hayes and I imagine these brakes will do well. At that pricepoint, for me, I’m buying Hope.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Actually, you'd better check that. Maybe they're just an American company but the brakes are made elsewhere. I could be wrong on that.
    Considering there's a HAYES BICYCLE GROUP ASIA based in Taiwan...I'd say it's a safe bet on the made elsewhere.


    Are there any other Hayes brakes that are still available new that are worth looking at as a Guide RS replacement? I'm not willing or able to spend nearly $400 on brakes right now. I'm generally happy with my Guides but getting them setup is a absolute PITA....so much I'm thinking about replacing them. When they are adjusted they work well though so it's a shame they suck to dial in. I've honestly never paid any attention to Hayes brakes in the past so I don't know the first thing about the brand or line up.
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  40. #40
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    Im 215lb, and I liked my hayes strokers. With 8 inch rotors, they had plenty of power. Mine we're 08's, and in that 10 years they got one fluid change after 7 years. I finally retired them last week.

    Im on shimanos now. Id gladly go back to hayes. Id look at primes, which were the stroker replacement/improvement.

  41. #41
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    Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Im 215lb, and I liked my hayes strokers. With 8 inch rotors, they had plenty of power. Mine we're 08's, and in that 10 years they got one fluid change after 7 years. I finally retired them last week.

    Im on shimanos now. Id gladly go back to hayes. Id look at primes, which were the stroker replacement/improvement.
    I'll check them out. $200 for front and rear...that's just first place I looked. Probably other deals out there. I'd guess I could get at least half that out of the Guides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Considering there's a HAYES BICYCLE GROUP ASIA based in Taiwan...I'd say it's a safe bet on the made elsewhere.


    Are there any other Hayes brakes that are still available new that are worth looking at as a Guide RS replacement? I'm not willing or able to spend nearly $400 on brakes right now. I'm generally happy with my Guides but getting them setup is a absolute PITA....so much I'm thinking about replacing them. When they are adjusted they work well though so it's a shame they suck to dial in. I've honestly never paid any attention to Hayes brakes in the past so I don't know the first thing about the brand or line up.
    Hayes have dropped all their other hydraulics, this Dominion is it. There are still a few Radar (mineral oil) and Pryme (DOT fluid) brakes available but they're out of production.

    Hayes still do the mechanical brakes too. A big cyclocross thing apparently. But I've never done that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.
    TRP is Tectro's big boy brakes.

  45. #45
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    I am considering to get these brakes.
    My main concern now is the longer lever and 1 finver braking. I hope they will work with sram shifter and bikeyoke lever fot wise.
    Will I need the Hayes adapters as well?
    Planning to get the rear and front 180mm D rotors as well
    I am on older xtrs now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.

    Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.

    DOT fluid brakes used on exactly the same rides stay rock solid. Which is why DOT is used for automotive.
    not sure what you mean by gassing out, but the boiling point of mineral oil (at least shimano type) is higher than DOT, especially after DOT got water in.
    see boiling point table half way down

    The lack of performance under heat is not based on fluid limit due to gas bubbles, but due to lower friction factor of hor brake pads and rotors. Obviously wet DOT fluid could degrade brakes before the pads do. but assuming your fluid isn't boiling, brakes lose power due to less friction when hot. You could have cable brakes (if you have really strong hands!) and experience fading due to heat.

    There was a recent thread of people using some sort of drugstore mineral oil, obviously that won't work well at all. but if you use shimano produced fluid it will withstand heat, beyond what most pads and rotors can.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    not sure what you mean by gassing out, but the boiling point of mineral oil (at least shimano type) is higher than DOT, especially after DOT got water in.
    see boiling point table half way down
    Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time.
    Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools.

    That is why suspension forks have air bleed valves. They produce gas internally as the oil heats and works which builds up pressure. Enough pressure and they not only impact performance, but they can blow seals.
    Even vacuum degassing the oil does not stop more gas being produced. It reduces the problem, but does not stop it.

    There are no brands of mineral oil brake immune to these fluid gassing problems. If you want to step into synthetic fluids then that's a completely different subject. Take a look at mineral oil brakes and you will see the effort they go to to keep fluid temps low. Including insulating pistons, rotors which conduct heat better and even cooling fins on pads.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    The lack of performance under heat is not based on fluid limit due to gas bubbles, but due to lower friction factor of hor brake pads and rotors. Obviously wet DOT fluid could degrade brakes before the pads do. but assuming your fluid isn't boiling, brakes lose power due to less friction when hot. You could have cable brakes (if you have really strong hands!) and experience fading due to heat.

    There was a recent thread of people using some sort of drugstore mineral oil, obviously that won't work well at all. but if you use shimano produced fluid it will withstand heat, beyond what most pads and rotors can.
    Pad fade is a completely separate issue. Pad fade doesn't require your brakes to be rebled afterwards to get a firm lever.

    All mineral oils have this problem. Regardless of brand. Which is one of the reasons why DOT fluids exist.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I am considering to get these brakes.
    My main concern now is the longer lever and 1 finver braking. I hope they will work with sram shifter and bikeyoke lever fot wise.
    Will I need the Hayes adapters as well?
    Planning to get the rear and front 180mm D rotors as well
    I am on older xtrs now.


    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    Hayes have Peacemaker clamps coming to fit with Shimano I Spec and SRAM Matchmaker shifters. What is your concern with lever length?

    Shimano adapters sometimes don't have enough clearance for other brand calipers.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Hayes have Peacemaker clamps coming to fit with Shimano I Spec and SRAM Matchmaker shifters. What is your concern with lever length?

    Shimano adapters sometimes don't have enough clearance for other brand calipers.
    The length.
    Since the lever seems to be longer than xtr/xt one, my concern is the sgifter would be pushed too far inward on the bars.
    The matchmaker could work, but the positioning is also limited.
    I remember not liking sram brake/shifter combo on some demo bike due to not being able to get them exactly where I wanted them.

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    The length.
    Since the lever seems to be longer than xtr/xt one, my concern is the sgifter would be pushed too far inward on the bars.
    The matchmaker could work, but the positioning is also limited.
    I remember not liking sram brake/shifter combo on some demo bike due to not being able to get them exactly where I wanted them.

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    The lever is 80mm from pivot to end. It's a completely normal sized brake.
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  51. #51
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    Get a chance to see how much the sintered replacement pads cost yet?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Get a chance to see how much the sintered replacement pads cost yet?
    RRP is $US30 per set.

    Same price for T106 semi-metallic and T100 metallic.

    For those interested. HFX Mag pads are still available. $US21 per set.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The lever is 80mm from pivot to end. It's a completely normal sized brake.
    80mm might be too long.
    Shimano is 70mm. The adapter might work here.



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  54. #54
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    I'm becoming more interested after reading about it on PB.

  55. #55
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    Could they tear me away from Saints?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    80mm might be too long.
    Shimano is 70mm. The adapter might work here.



    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    You haven't measured from the pivot. It's the shiney pin that looks about 75-80mm on your ruler.

    I measured SRAM guides and some other Shimanos I have lying around. Lever pivot to end of blade.
    SRAM was 81mm, Shimano 77mm.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Do Tektro make anything special? Don't laugh but I've never seen any problems on Tektro hydro brakes.
    Reviews I've read say they lack power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by griffsterb View Post
    Bump. Anyone have these yet?

    I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.

    Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.

    Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.
    Thanks, nice to talk to someone who's ridden them. I like a really powerful brake, XTs are close, but the build quality is trash now, they feel so cheap, and I'm done with the pumping up crap.

    I'll probably buy the Hayes soon. Wish they weren't so ugly though :P

  60. #60
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    Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    RRP is $US30 per set.

    Same price for T106 semi-metallic and T100 metallic.

    For those interested. HFX Mag pads are still available. $US21 per set.
    Thanks, think that's inline considering the size..long as the actual pad material thickness isn't rediculous thin.

    Installed lever reach adj. on my the one's and they snapped/sh!t the bed..went back to the hex adj. and they're just fine but my trigger finger feels like it's time for an upgrade.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.
    Same, though I never really wanted to switch to mineral oil so I have yet to try the new formulas..(shemano is the ugly duck, looks wise imo)
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Would like to hear some real world ride reports between Saint, the new Cura 4 pistons, and these new Hayes. Based on how good the OG Cura's are, I'd wager their new 4 piston calipers will be the brake to beat. The Hayes do look like they put a lot of thought and engineering into them.
    I've ridden these back to back with Saint: Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.- Mtbr.com

    I don't know anyone who rides Formula brakes.
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  64. #64
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    There handlebar photo somewhere w/ lever adjusted full in?

    Thing I am remembering now w/ my FR lever, had to bend the thing w/ c-clamps because the throw started waay too far from the bar..the starting angle was kicked way out

    Can these dominion a4 levers be adjusted so the end of throw is almost bottoming on the handle bars? w/ the lever adjusted all the way in, where is the lever starting, parallel to the bars? I am a picky sob w/brake levers, some have a wacked out reach
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Thing I am remembering now w/ my FR lever, had to bend the thing w/ c-clamps because the throw started waay too far from the bar..the starting angle was kicked way out

    Can these dominion a4 levers be adjusted so the end of throw is almost bottoming on the handle bars? w/ the lever adjusted all the way in, where is the lever starting, parallel to the bars? I am a picky sob w/brake levers, some have a wacked out reach
    Reach is adjustable with the big dial. Bite point is factory set, but you can screw with it if you feel the need.

    I've got big hands and fat grips. But winding the reach all the way in on my prototypes the lever starts to bite about 5-8mm from the grip. It comes out to about parallel.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Reach is adjustable with the big dial. Bite point is factory set, but you can screw with it if you feel the need.

    I've got big hands and fat grips. But winding the reach all the way in on my prototypes the lever starts to bite about 5-8mm from the grip. It comes out to about parallel.
    How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
    I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.

    Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
    180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
    I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.

    Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
    180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.
    Iirc each pad/side in the caliper can be hex adjusted closer, that's gonna make for a nice short as possible adjustment
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I had a prototype set 2 years ago that blew me away with both power and lever feel. Then I got a preproduction set a year ago that was just as good, but more refined.

    Still on that preprod set now. Best brakes I've ever used.
    Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.
    The reach adjustment does not move the cam on M8000

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    Want!

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  71. #71
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    Do the Dominion brakes have a variable ratio lever like Shimano Servowave and the Hayes Prime do?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    How long is the stroke to the bite point set by the factory?
    I am looking for a brake with the shortest one possible. I own shimano xtr.

    Also, do you know if hayes adapters are needed or can i use shimanos?
    180mm rotor rear/front. Post mount.
    You're going to have to find a set of these to see if they fit your specific needs.

    Shimano adapters often don't have the depth to clear the calipers on other brand brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Iirc each pad/side in the caliper can be hex adjusted closer, that's gonna make for a nice short as possible adjustment
    Eh? The only brakes adjustable in that way are the old Hope C2's and mechanical brakes. There is no individual piston adjustment on any self-adjusting hydraulic brake.

    The cross-hair alignment is for setting the whole caliper on the adapter so it aligns with the rotor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.
    The cam motion stays set and the lever adjustment moves the blade in relation to the cam. So motion ratios are the same for wound right in to wound right out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Do the Dominion brakes have a variable ratio lever like Shimano Servowave and the Hayes Prime do?
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean there. Every brake lever has a motion ratio that moves as the brake is stroked. See above regarding the motion ratio of the cam being set independent of lever position.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I can compare them to Saint and XT. With the stock pads they are similar power for the same lever squeeze.

    With the metallic pads fitted they scare people who normally ride Saint and XT.
    Do you have any time on Hope Tech 3 E4 or V4?
    I am trying to decide between these and Dominion.

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  74. #74
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    Ive not ran the Dominion (yet) but would purchase these over a Hope brake any day of the week. I went from Hope to Magura and will never go back to Hope (and I love their stuff, just not their brakes). Im itching to try these Dominions and compare to the Magura MT7's which have been the best brakes I have ridden to date.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Do you have any time on Hope Tech 3 E4 or V4?
    I am trying to decide between these and Dominion.

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    I have not. I don't ride with anyone running a recent Hope brake.
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  76. #76
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    Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You're going to have to find a set of these to see if they fit your specific needs.

    Shimano adapters often don't have the depth to clear the calipers on other brand brakes.



    Eh? The only brakes adjustable in that way are the old Hope C2's and mechanical brakes. There is no individual piston adjustment on any self-adjusting hydraulic brake.

    The cross-hair alignment is for setting the whole caliper on the adapter so it aligns with the rotor.



    The cam motion stays set and the lever adjustment moves the blade in relation to the cam. So motion ratios are the same for wound right in to wound right out.



    I'm not sure exactly what you mean there. Every brake lever has a motion ratio that moves as the brake is stroked. See above regarding the motion ratio of the cam being set independent of lever position.
    Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.

    The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."

    I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Eh? The only brakes adjustable in that way are the old Hope C2's and mechanical brakes. There is no individual piston adjustment on any self-adjusting hydraulic brake.

    The cross-hair alignment is for setting the whole caliper on the adapter so it aligns with the rotor.
    Wishfull thinking on my part, due to "used hydro brakes lazy piston seal syndrome"..i must've been tired when I read the article on this new setup
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.

    The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."

    I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).
    You are missing out...

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I have not. I don't ride with anyone running a recent Hope brake.
    One more question.
    Do I need the Hayes bleed kit?
    Any special fotting I would need to bleed these?

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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Since it uses a cam to actuate the piston, I assume it's variable leverage.

    The description for the Prime says "Leverage increases throughout the stroke, for better modulation and higher power at the end."

    I want linear brakes. More predictable and controllable. I'll just stick with my Stroker Trails, although they are a bit underpowered. I also don't want high maintenance four piston calipers (i.e., more problems with sticky pistons).
    Because all brakes use a pivot to drive a sliding master cyilnder, they all have variable rates. It's how they all work. It's not possible to draw conclusions about control from a simple description.

    Sticky pistons is a design problem affecting certain brands/models, it's not related to the number of pistons.

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    One more question.
    Do I need the Hayes bleed kit?
    Any special fotting I would need to bleed these?

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    They use the same M5 bleed ports as other brakes. The only difference is you want to use DOT 5.1 fluid to maintain the high temp performance.

    Remember not to use a mineral oil brake bleed kit. It might be tempting but you do not want to start mixing those fluids in the same bleed tools.
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  81. #81
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    For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that “Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1”

    Absolutely do not mix them!

    Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeetheviking View Post
    For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that “Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1”

    Absolutely do not mix them!

    Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!
    This is one of the main problems with DOT fluid period. It is corrosive and thus was causing issues with the external items when left uncleaned (hence why most brake bleeding instructions had you immediately clean the area and anything that may have been possibly touched with rubbing alcohol). However, I do believe that DOT 5 is supposed to be a "stronger" version of the DOT fluids.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    This is one of the main problems with DOT fluid period. It is corrosive and thus was causing issues with the external items when left uncleaned (hence why most brake bleeding instructions had you immediately clean the area and anything that may have been possibly touched with rubbing alcohol). However, I do believe that DOT 5 is supposed to be a "stronger" version of the DOT fluids.
    Water is the best way to clean up DOT fluid. It's hydrophillic so it absorbs and washes away very well.
    It's not corrosive like acid. It's just a solvent to certain plastics. Like powdercoat.

    Luckily DOT 5 silicone is rare so very few people will make the mistake of using it.
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  84. #84
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    Just ordered my set of Dominions. Looking forward to consistent, great feel and modulation braking.

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    First ride with the Dominion A4s. Anyone looking for a brake upgrade and considering Hope, Magura etc. needs to add the Dominion from Hayes to their list. Got my first ride in with them today and they do exactly what the reviews claim. Read the reviews and then buy these brakes if you are riding Trail, AM, Enduro etc. I will update with more testing and time on them to ensure they stay consistent. I found my riding was faster today on my home trails because I am now able to feather the brakes more than I could with well tuned SRAM Guides. And they are quiet as claimed.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Do you know if the levers work well adjusted close to the bar? Or are they out of cam like shimono? I had to bend my M8000.

    For me they do.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trailhwk17 View Post
    First ride with the Dominion A4s. Anyone looking for a brake upgrade and considering Hope, Magura etc. needs to add the Dominion from Hayes to their list. Got my first ride in with them today and they do exactly what the reviews claim. Read the reviews and then buy these brakes if you are riding Trail, AM, Enduro etc. I will update with more testing and time on them to ensure they stay consistent. I found my riding was faster today on my home trails because I am now able to feather the brakes more than I could with well tuned SRAM Guides. And they are quiet as claimed.
    How easy were they to set up/install?
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    How easy were they to set up/install?
    Not that hard or different than any other brakes.
    I had to cut both lines. That's a 5min job.
    I bled them before I mounted them and did the 3 way bleed on both.
    Lever to 1st caliper bleed port
    Lever to 2nd
    1st Caliper bleed port to 2nd
    The adjustment pads to rotor is super easy and fast.

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    New question here. One finger?

    What are you guys over 200lbs noticing about the lever pull after getting used to it, beefie return spring or does it feel lighter on extended runs??
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeetheviking View Post
    For those interested in these brakes... I thought it would be beneficial to point out that “Silicone based dot 5 is very different than Glycol based Dot 5.1”

    Absolutely do not mix them!

    Also note: Do not get glycol based Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 spilled on important stuff and left without washing... the stuff is like acid, it will even eat powdercoat!
    Welcome to 1999.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Mineral oil is fine in low performance applications. But get it hot and it releases gas. This is why open bath DH forks have air bleed buttons and it's why mineral oil brakes which get hot need bled all the time.

    Hayes are now doing mineral oil in their Radar brake. It's a great brake, but has exactly the same limitation as other mineral oil brakes. Get them too hot and they go mushy as the fluid releases gas. A rebleed fixes it. Until next time.

    DOT fluid brakes used on exactly the same rides stay rock solid. Which is why DOT is used for automotive.
    .
    You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.

    Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).

    DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is.. | Epic Bleed Solutions

    The Hayes brakes are beautiful, but that does not create advantages which simply are not there. The difference between Mineral and DOT certainly is not in the performance as you suggest, courtesy of independent testing (there are more articles that go into this at length, temperature is not a major difference).

    And about automotive, well, stopping a Car and stopping a bike are mechanically similar, but the amount of force involved is rather different. You would not want a car brake on your bike, now would you?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    What are you guys over 200lbs noticing about the lever pull after getting used to it, beefie return spring or does it feel lighter on extended runs??
    This has me intrigued. Similar to the guides heat issue?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prickly geezer View Post
    You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.

    Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).

    DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is.. | Epic Bleed Solutions

    The Hayes brakes are beautiful, but that does not create advantages which simply are not there. The difference between Mineral and DOT certainly is not in the performance as you suggest, courtesy of independent testing (there are more articles that go into this at length, temperature is not a major difference).

    And about automotive, well, stopping a Car and stopping a bike are mechanically similar, but the amount of force involved is rather different. You would not want a car brake on your bike, now would you?

    I will let him answer but I don't think he was saying that. From his post ""Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time. Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools."

    I got the impression that he is implying that heating releases the gas from the oil leading to air in the system that can't be re-absorbed by the oil.

    Don't know what is true or not. I personally have used my XT brakes for almost 4 years and have only bled them once.
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  94. #94
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    I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
    Having a problem with my rear.
    I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
    My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.

    So, I did the bleeding again, the full 3 way bleed and don't think there was much air left, if any. The bleeding was done with the caliper unmounted from the bike.
    Using Motul 5.1.

    Anyway, I just rode 5 steep DHs today, hoping I fixed the problem, but nope. Every single run after a minute or so, the lever stiffend up and the point of engagement moved further away from the bars. It also felt like I had to press it harder,...
    When I let go of the brake for 5sec or more they returned back to normal, but eventually stiffened up again...

    I will try to cut the hose again and do the full bleed, will also call Hayes on monday.



    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

  95. #95
    LCW
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    Rode my new Dominions on a short ride this am. Very impressed so far.

    You end up forgetting they are there. Smooth. Linear response. Low effort vs braking power. Very small dead stroke. But not grabby.

    Reach adjustment has finer gradient than others I've tried so that's good if you're finicky about lever position.

    I'm running the sintered pads and there's a tiny chirp from the front with light apply. I may try the semi-metallic pads to see the difference. May just do a re-align procedure first.

    In any case, these are by far the best feeling brakes I've had.

    Santa Cruz Hightower LT


  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCW View Post
    ... Smooth. Linear response. Low effort vs braking power. Very small dead stroke. But not grabby.

    In any case, these are by far the best feeling brakes I've had.
    I like the sound of this..hope more will chime in..


    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    This has me intrigued. Similar to the guides heat issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
    Having a problem with my rear.
    I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
    My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.

    So, I did the bleeding again, the full 3 way bleed and don't think there was much air left, if any. The bleeding was done with the caliper unmounted from the bike.
    Using Motul 5.1.

    Anyway, I just rode 5 steep DHs today, hoping I fixed the problem, but nope. Every single run after a minute or so, the lever stiffend up and the point of engagement moved further away from the bars. It also felt like I had to press it harder,...
    When I let go of the brake for 5sec or more they returned back to normal, but eventually stiffened up again...

    I will try to cut the hose again and do the full bleed, will also call Hayes on monday.



    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    I don't have these yet, but that sounds more like either over filled, air in system or both..I'd try resetting pistons and bleed + dbl check alignment w/pads out and make sure pistons are extend/retracting at same pace and not bending rotor..hope you get it sorted, keep us posted
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prickly geezer View Post
    You are a fantastic representative and salesman, but facts are here showing your serious bias.

    Mineral oil brakes do not need frequent bleeding and do not turn mushy after just a few rides. The boling point of Shimano oil is 280 degrees Celcius, Dot 4.0 tops at 230 5.1 is somewhere near Shimano oil (275).

    DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is.. | Epic Bleed Solutions

    The Hayes brakes are beautiful, but that does not create advantages which simply are not there. The difference between Mineral and DOT certainly is not in the performance as you suggest, courtesy of independent testing (there are more articles that go into this at length, temperature is not a major difference).

    And about automotive, well, stopping a Car and stopping a bike are mechanically similar, but the amount of force involved is rather different. You would not want a car brake on your bike, now would you?
    Boiling is not the issue. The issue is the air dissolved in mineral oils (~8% by volume) which gets released as the fluid heats. I've already address it in post 47 above. Here it is copied in below again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Boiling point is not the issue. If you boil your brake fluid, you're having an extremely bad time.
    Mineral oils produce gas at much lower temperatures. At atmospheric pressure and temperature a mineral oil contains about 8% air by volume. The mineral oil releases gas when heated and does not reabsorb all of it when it cools.

    That is why suspension forks have air bleed valves. They produce gas internally as the oil heats and works which builds up pressure. Enough pressure and they not only impact performance, but they can blow seals.
    Even vacuum degassing the oil does not stop more gas being produced. It reduces the problem, but does not stop it.

    There are no brands of mineral oil brake immune to these fluid gassing problems. If you want to step into synthetic fluids then that's a completely different subject. Take a look at mineral oil brakes and you will see the effort they go to to keep fluid temps low. Including insulating pistons, rotors which conduct heat better and even cooling fins on pads.


    Pad fade is a completely separate issue. Pad fade doesn't require your brakes to be rebled afterwards to get a firm lever.

    All mineral oils have this problem. Regardless of brand. Which is one of the reasons why DOT fluids exist.
    You claim bias. But it has nothing to do with brand. The Hayes Radar (mineral oil) brakes suffer the same problem when used intensively.

    My bike brakes get hotter than my car brakes.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I have only 2 rides on the Dominion so far.
    Having a problem with my rear.
    I am getting the wandering point of engagement. It happend on my first ride on a shorter but steep and twisty trail, which requires a lot of constant braking.
    My old xtrs used to do it, but only on this particular trail.

    So, I did the bleeding again, the full 3 way bleed and don't think there was much air left, if any. The bleeding was done with the caliper unmounted from the bike.
    Using Motul 5.1.

    Anyway, I just rode 5 steep DHs today, hoping I fixed the problem, but nope. Every single run after a minute or so, the lever stiffend up and the point of engagement moved further away from the bars. It also felt like I had to press it harder,...
    When I let go of the brake for 5sec or more they returned back to normal, but eventually stiffened up again...

    I will try to cut the hose again and do the full bleed, will also call Hayes on monday.



    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

    Sounds like the brake reservoir is overfilled with fluid, so there is nowhere for the extra fluid volume to go as it heats and expands.

    Crack the bleed screw and push the pads back. This will squirt out about the right amount of fluid for the reservoir to work correctly.

    Let us know how you get on.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
    SPV Devolve

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sounds like the brake reservoir is overfilled with fluid, so there is nowhere for the extra fluid volume to go as it heats and expands.

    Crack the bleed screw and push the pads back. This will squirt out about the right amount of fluid for the reservoir to work correctly.

    Let us know how you get on.
    Thanks.
    I have just done it, but the pads where almost all the way in to start with. There wasnt much of a caliper sticking out, so could push them in only a little bit. Nothing came out of the lever bleed port...

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Thanks.
    I have just done it, but the pads where almost all the way in to start with. There wasnt much of a caliper sticking out, so could push them in only a little bit. Nothing came out of the lever bleed port...

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    So going back to your earlier description of the problem. Are you holding the brake on constantly or are you releasing the lever so it can reset?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
    SPV Devolve

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