Hayes are back. Dominion 4 piston released at Eurobike. - Page 2- Mtbr.com
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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    well deserved!

    I did several costly things this year...
    Guide RSC -> Dominion A4
    Spank Oozy wheels -> Bontrager Line 30 Pro (AL to carbon and 6 deg engagement to 3.3)
    Manitou Mattoc Pro -> MRP Ribbon Air fork

    Dominion was the cheapest and by far the most impactful.
    Well said! I just had my first ride in about 6 weeks and tried the semi-metallic pads for the first time on Dominions. Worked beautiful; power, modulation, quiet!
    Iíve swapped a lot of expensive parts this year, wish I had tried Dominions before Guides, M9020, Saints, & MT7ís.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    After sending my Dominions to Hayes warranty with the wandering bite point I have received a new pair.
    They said they couldn't find what was wrong with them /which could also mean they didn't find anything wrong/ anyway, the new set works just like it should, no more stiffening lever under high braking.
    However, the rear brake lever throw is a little longer compared to the front.

    I mounted the new Dominions thinking I would try them how they come before I cut the hoses. To my surprise they were already cut to the right length. /Matching my old set/ Thanks Hayes!

    I have arthritis in my right index finger and was sometimes having problem to completely lock my xtr/180mm ice tech.
    Dominions do not require as much force to stop.
    I also like the modulation. How it has been mentioned before, the lever doesn't stop abruptly, it has a nice soft control at the end, but it doesn't feel spongy.

    I would compare it to my trusty old Audi, the brake modulation has a soft, light feel, where the power comes gently but surly with a lot of control.
    They are very intuitive, the adjustment period is short.



    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.

    After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
    Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
    So I took mine to the same shop to make them the same
    Anyhow, they did a great job, much better feel after the bleed. Now, to new set of brakes had the houses cut and were blead originally by Hayes.

    After the lbs had worked on them they finally felt perfect. Another 5-6 rides an the rear started to feel softer and the stroke became long again.
    Not sure what is happening here, my second set and they don't work as they should, and it seems I am the only one with this issue here...
    I will take them back to the shop and see if they can fix it.

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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.

    After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
    Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
    So I took mine to the same shop to make them the same
    Anyhow, they did a great job, much better feel after the bleed. Now, to new set of brakes had the houses cut and were blead originally by Hayes.

    After the lbs had worked on them they finally felt perfect. Another 5-6 rides an the rear started to feel softer and the stroke became long again.
    Not sure what is happening here, my second set and they don't work as they should, and it seems I am the only one with this issue here...
    I will take them back to the shop and see if they can fix it.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Sounds like it could be a nicked seal, maybe in the master cylinder in the lever.

    If you pull the lever so it feels firm, hold it there with constant pressure and then the lever starts moving towards the bars I think it'll be a seal.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I am back dealing with the soft rear lever and slight wandering bite point.

    After few rides with the 2nd set of Dominions (1st one was sent to Hayes for a warranty) I took the bike to my LBS to check a bleed the rear, since I wasn't fully satisfied with the feel.
    Buddy of mine runs Dominions and they felt much firmer and the stroke was also shorter by a significant amount.
    So I took mine to the same shop to make them the same
    Anyhow, they did a great job, much better feel after the bleed. Now, to new set of brakes had the houses cut and were blead originally by Hayes.

    After the lbs had worked on them they finally felt perfect. Another 5-6 rides an the rear started to feel softer and the stroke became long again.
    Not sure what is happening here, my second set and they don't work as they should, and it seems I am the only one with this issue here...
    I will take them back to the shop and see if they can fix it.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
    After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.

    The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.

    A shop playing with the brakes would result in exactly the same situation again as the pistons go from being pumped out a little to full retraction as the seals settle and pads bed in.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
    After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.

    The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.

    A shop playing with the brakes would result in exactly the same situation again as the pistons go from being pumped out a little to full retraction as the seals settle and pads bed in.
    It might be the case.
    However, I was hoping the brakes would be set up properly at the first place, considering Hayes cut the hoses and did the bleeding for me and yet, the rear lever was soft and stroke long...

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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If a brake is setup with the seals not completely retracted/relaxed (i.e. the pistons pumped out a little) then the lever stroke feels artificially short.
    After a few good rides the pads wear a little, piston stroke is returned with seals fully retracting/relaxing and lever stroke returns to full.

    The above sounds like exactly your issue. It's not wandering bite-point, but rather them being setup in a transient state.

    A shop playing with the brakes would result in exactly the same situation again as the pistons go from being pumped out a little to full retraction as the seals settle and pads bed in.
    Is there a way how to make the stroke short without pistons being pump out in order to be closer to the rotor?

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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    It might be the case.
    However, I was hoping the brakes would be set up properly at the first place, considering Hayes cut the hoses and did the bleeding for me and yet, the rear lever was soft and stroke long...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Is there a way how to make the stroke short without pistons being pump out in order to be closer to the rotor?

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    It sounds like the brakes were set up properly. The longer throw is what they do. The shorter throw is temporary. Shorter throw means less pad retraction and dragging pads.
    The rear brake always feels softer to squeeze than the front as the rear hose is about twice as long so takes twice as much fluid expansion. This is the same for all brakes.

    There is a secondary adjuster. I haven't tried it. Call Hayes before you do.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It sounds like the brakes were set up properly. The longer throw is what they do. The shorter throw is temporary. Shorter throw means less pad retraction and dragging pads.
    The rear brake always feels softer to squeeze than the front as the rear hose is about twice as long so takes twice as much fluid expansion. This is the same for all brakes.

    There is a secondary adjuster. I haven't tried it. Call Hayes before you do.
    I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
    I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
    I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
    If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.

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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
    I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
    I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
    If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Throw is very short until the pads touch, but there is no power there. Throw before you throw yourself over the bars is very long. Longer than most brakes. The lever distance between the pads touching and you being thrown over the bars is where the modulation comes into play. It seems like you are extremely particular in how you like your lever feel. If thatís the case, I suggest you buy a bleed kit and some motul rbf 600 and bleed them yourself. Iím pretty sensitive to brake differences as well and mine are damn good.
    What I do is set the lever positions to where the ďthrow you over the bars spotĒ is even between the two.

  10. #210
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    Just purchased a set of dominions. I am putting a fat bike together and these will be my main halting devices. Would you folks use adapters or go with different rotors. My frame and fork use 180 front and 160 rear and the dominion rotors are just in 203 or 180. I also saw that one person had a rear bite point that comes on later than the front, mine also has this and I was noticing that the rear brake pads release more than the fronts. With those little red pad spacers you can tell the space between the brake pads is a good bit more in the rear than in the front when the levers aren't touched. I haven't even installed them yet. Both levers feel the same once both pads touch the spacers in front and back so I believe they are both bled well.

  11. #211
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    This has probably been answered, but do we have confirmation the Shimano brake adaptors work; specifically PM 180 to 203 front and rear?? Thanks, sorry if this has already been discussed...


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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I was hoping for a shorter throw with these brakes, most of the reviews mention the short dead stroke, which isn't the case at the moment with my rear brake.
    I also have the dead stroke adjuster set to the shortest.
    I will make sure the shop won't set them up with the pads retracted.
    If they cannot be set up with a shorter stroke, I might have to search for a different brakes.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    what rotors are you using?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    what rotors are you using?
    Hayes D series 6 bolt 180mm

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  14. #214
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    Am considering some Dominion's for this winters build.
    (also looking at Cura4 and MT7)

    I tend to run my brakes close to the bar.
    Just wondering with the longer throw, if this will be an issue.
    For reference have Tech3V4's. 6'2" @ 225.
    Bite adjust is fully in, and the reach set about parallel and under full power I'm almost touching the grip.

    Also have some XO Trails on another bike. Nice brakes, good modulation and decent power with a fresh bleed. However they are a pain to get a good bleed, never stay fresh for long, and then you end up with a sponge with wondering bite point.

    With the Hopes, I get easy bleed, great modulation, solid bite-point but... I want more ultimate power. The bike they are on is a 26" with 203/180. I'm building a 29'r so with the added mechanical advantage of the bigger wheel, I feel the Hopes will be underpowered, so instead of another set, am looking at alternates. Yes I have played with pads, currently Uber RaceMatrix.
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  15. #215
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    Well, given that the levers are quite easily adjusted, one of us could certainly test this for you. Can you measure the reach of your existing levers (I assume that's the preferred bar-to-lever distance)? Then we can just click until that reach is set, and pull the levers and measure.

  16. #216
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    ColinL

    That would be appreciated.
    I will check and measure the throw numbers in the next day or so when I get access to their secure winter storage.

    Cheers!

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  17. #217
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    Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes.
    I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by maimed02 View Post
    Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes.
    I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience
    Which one is your favorite so far?

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Which one is your favorite so far?

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    Magura: amazing power, great modulation, bleeding procedure is really easy. Cons is that they are very finicky to set up in terms of rotor alignment.

    Hope: very nice lever feel, linear modulation is really good. I really like how they bite point control just changes the angle of the lever to result in quicker engagement - bpc that actually works. Cons: would like a bit more power, I hated bleeding these with a passion.

    Saints: on/off... didnt really like these to be honest.

    Trp: lever feel and modulation seems fantastic!! Bleeding is easy. I cant attest to power as I cant ride my wifes bike (she is almost half my weight and 5'6' vs 6'4').

    Guides: underwhelming in almost every way.

    Codes: feel pretty good in terms of modulation and lever feel. Cons: I found it very hard to retract the pistons when bleeding and the solid lever didnt stick around for long.

  20. #220
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    Are the brake levers flippable?

    I can find fronts at some shops, and rears at others, but nobody has both until 2nd week of March. (German shops = pricing of 310.00 a pair )

    If I grab 2 rears, will I be good, or do they require a separate left and right?
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Are the brake levers flippable?

    I can find fronts at some shops, and rears at others, but nobody has both until 2nd week of March. (German shops = pricing of 310.00 a pair )

    If I grab 2 rears, will I be good, or do they require a separate left and right?
    Yes. Flippable. The only difference between front and rear is the hose length.

    I have them in stock.
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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes. Flippable. The only difference between front and rear is the hose length.

    I have them in stock.
    Yes and they look great both ways not like some other flippers.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by maimed02 View Post
    Anyone in the market for a trade for MT7s purchased Nov 18? I'm keen to try out the hayes.
    I've had Hope V4s, Shimano Saints, Sram guides, codes and guide lever to code caliper and my wife has TRP quadiems. Looking to continue my around the world brake experience
    Ha, you sound like me bro... the train stops here my friend.

  24. #224
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    Well finally decided on brakes and pulled the trigger earlier tonight.

    Contenders were:
    4. Magura - MT7 - Fragile - too many reports of broken bits.
    3. Formula Cura 4 - lever shape does not allow very close to bar setup
    2. Hope T3V4 - Have on a 26" and like a lot. But on a will be at limits of power on a 29r Hope make a bigger 225 rotor, but not a mount to fit. TRP 223 is not out yet, Trickstuff is backordered and is 100 Euro for their 223.

    So...
    1. Hayes Dominion - not keen on the res below the MC but we will see. Everything else seems dialed. Running with 203/180 D7 rotors, +20mm PM-PM mount and PM-PM +23mm mount

    ...and to make life a lot easier on the Hope T3V4's a Hayes rotor alignment tool.


    So, if all goes well, in about a month or so I will have the bike built and should be able to give them a shakedown.

    Thank-you all for your dialog and help.
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  25. #225
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    Just another shoutout for these underrated brakes. I rode a trail that was probably at my max level for tech, without the recent 2í deep ruts gouged out by a storm. I crawled down this thing at probably a half mile an hour to keep from going over the bars for about a 800-1000í descent Iím guessing.
    Iím a big guy and the 203/180 rotors with semi-metallics performed flawless. No heat marks, no fade, rotors still true as can be. Im impressed.

  26. #226
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    Curiosity got the better of me. Got a set on the way. Wanted to see how these compare against MT7s.

    The plan is to use them with Magura rotors since they are about the same thickness and I already have them on hand. Going to have to pick up some DOT fluid though.

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  27. #227
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    Installed mine today - all I need to do is trim the hoses and I'll be ready to go.

  28. #228
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    Does anyone know the thickness of the bleed block for these?

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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Does anyone know the thickness of the bleed block for these?

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    I can measure when i get home

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  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I can measure when i get home

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    Thank you. Did you buy the bleed kit or did yours come with the brakes?

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  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Thank you. Did you buy the bleed kit or did yours come with the brakes?

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    Blocks come with the brakes

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  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Blocks come with the brakes

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    Got it. No need to measure. I was going by the comments made earlier in the thread, which made it sound like no bleed blocks were included.

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  33. #233
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    First ride on the Dominions, and I love them. Didn't even push them all that hard from a power standpoint, but did lots of light braking. They feel incredible.

  34. #234
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    My Dominions are still working great, so happy with them.

  35. #235
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    I love mine as well. My MTB sat for a solid 60 days and no issues whatsoever coming back to life once winter finally ended.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I love mine as well. My MTB sat for a solid 60 days and no issues whatsoever coming back to life once winter finally ended.
    My biggest complaint with Shimano brakes is contamination (or whatever causes the brakes to act like they are contaminated) from sitting idle. I have forgotten about this a couple of times. Made for some exciting early season rides.

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  37. #237
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    Found some DOT 5.1 at Napa for cheap. Brakes should be here by the weekend.

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  38. #238
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    Thinking I was the only one here having some issues with the Dominions, this review from mtbr basically mirrors my experience:

    ĒThe first issue I had with these brakes was consistency of lever modulation. Perhaps it was due to the high elevation and steep rocky descents in Peru and Ecuador, or the huge vertical loss over a short span of riding, but after about 2-3 days the lever would pull closer to the bar. I found that resetting the pistons and re-aligning the caliper fixed this, but that fix would only last a couple days.

    Same goes for a bleed and new pads, which would return lever modulation to par, but then fade after 4-5 days of hard riding. Thus in the two months of testing these brakes, I bled them four times, and went through three sets of brake pads, front and rear. I also roached the 180mm rear rotor and ended up replacing it with a 200mm rotor.Ē

    Full review:
    https://reviews.mtbr.com/hayes-domin...-brakes-review



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  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Thinking I was the only one here having some issues with the Dominions, this review from mtbr basically mirrors my experience:

    ĒThe first issue I had with these brakes was consistency of lever modulation. Perhaps it was due to the high elevation and steep rocky descents in Peru and Ecuador, or the huge vertical loss over a short span of riding, but after about 2-3 days the lever would pull closer to the bar. I found that resetting the pistons and re-aligning the caliper fixed this, but that fix would only last a couple days.

    Same goes for a bleed and new pads, which would return lever modulation to par, but then fade after 4-5 days of hard riding. Thus in the two months of testing these brakes, I bled them four times, and went through three sets of brake pads, front and rear. I also roached the 180mm rear rotor and ended up replacing it with a 200mm rotor.Ē

    Full review:
    https://reviews.mtbr.com/hayes-domin...-brakes-review



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    It appears he's also trying to keep the brake in a shorter lever throw than it operates. Which isn't going to work as the brake will keep adjusting to normal lever throw as the pads wear. You're continually fighting what the brake is designed to do. Which is run X amount of lever throw from Y amount of pad retraction.

    That's quite the test, he's done 53km of vertical descent. 1.5x what I did in total the summer before last on my prototypes. I wore two sets of semi-metallic pads in that time. But could have got more life from them.

    Not sure why he's bleeding them 4x though.
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  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It appears he's also trying to keep the brake in a shorter lever throw than it operates. Which isn't going to work as the brake will keep adjusting to normal lever throw as the pads wear. You're continually fighting what the brake is designed to do. Which is run X amount of lever throw from Y amount of pad retraction.

    That's quite the test, he's done 53km of vertical descent. 1.5x what I did in total the summer before last on my prototypes. I wore two sets of semi-metallic pads in that time. But could have got more life from them.

    Not sure why he's bleeding them 4x though.
    With me, it isn't the case.
    I don't have it set with the shortest throw, no fiddling with the pads to have them as close as they can be to the rotor.
    Most of my descends are under 5min.
    Under heavy braking, we are talking very steep stuff, the lever engages later and comes almost to the bars. This happens very quickly, maybe after 1min of braking.
    It gets worse with time. After about 6-7 rides the throw gets pretty long and I need to set the lever further from the bars in order for it to not touch the bars.

    Not sure if this could be the case, but I like the levers to be close to bars, I don't have big hands... I wonder if the brakes perform differently based on how far from the bars are...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    After about 6-7 rides the throw gets pretty long and I need to set the lever further from the bars in order for it to not touch the bars.
    Then what happens? Does it stay at that engagement point?
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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Then what happens? Does it stay at that engagement point?
    It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
    But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
    I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
    The same thing,
    Strange. This is a warranty replacement and it does exactly the same thing as my first set. /Only the rear brake/
    Also, buddy of mine owns dominions and they feel much better. Much firmer lever feel and short stroke.
    The both were set up by the same mechanic as mine /after I gave up after 4th bleeding/
    The only difference seems to be his are set much further from the bars...
    Still, my stroke is about 2x as long...

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  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
    But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
    I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
    The same thing,
    Strange. This is a warranty replacement and it does exactly the same thing as my first set. /Only the rear brake/
    Also, buddy of mine owns dominions and they feel much better. Much firmer lever feel and short stroke.
    The both were set up by the same mechanic as mine /after I gave up after 4th bleeding/
    The only difference seems to be his are set much further from the bars...
    Still, my stroke is about 2x as long...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    It moves. When released it goes back and starts engaging where before.
    But. After few rides the lever throw gets longer and it stays that way.
    I even tried a new rotor with new pads,which helped for a couple of rides until another demending descent.
    The same thing,
    Strange. This is a warranty replacement and it does exactly the same thing as my first set. /Only the rear brake/
    Also, buddy of mine owns dominions and they feel much better. Much firmer lever feel and short stroke.
    The both were set up by the same mechanic as mine /after I gave up after 4th bleeding/
    The only difference seems to be his are set much further from the bars...
    Still, my stroke is about 2x as long...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
    If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
    If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.
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  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Not sure. I will check it out.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
    If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
    If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.
    It makes sense.
    I used to have a bit of both. Maybe after one of my bleeds I overfilled it and had the pumping issue. Now it's the opposite.
    Anyway, can it change with the pads getting thinner?

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  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    It makes sense.
    I used to have a bit of both. Maybe after one of my bleeds I overfilled it and had the pumping issue. Now it's the opposite.
    Anyway, can it change with the pads getting thinner?

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Yes it can. A bleed with slightly low fluid can feel fine until the pads wear. Then it doesn't have enough fluid.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
    If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
    If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.
    I agree. I had an imperfect bleed on my front brake for 2 rides. It was clearly behaving differently from the rear.

    I bled the front again and it's been fine for about 200 hours of riding. Including a total hiatus for 60 days this winter - we had a really rough one and I didn't ride anything but my trainer a long while.

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  50. #250
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    I definitely saw the imperfect bleed causing troubles when I was setting mine up. I half-assed the bleed the first time around (after trimming the hoses) and got absolutely horrible behavior out of the brakes.

    Then I stepped back, redid the bleed (properly this time) and they've been solid and dare I say perfectly consistent.

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sounds to me like a bleed issue.
    If a brake is low on fluid, the lever return can pull the pistons back further.
    If a brake has too much fluid, the lever will pump up as it gets hot.
    jazzanova has second set of brakes, bleed multiple times and it's always rear brake that causes trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Hmm...did the mechanic check tab alignment? This kind of sounds like the pads aren't sitting flat on the rotor. This would cause longer lever travel, and softer engagement point.
    This made me think - perhaps it is bike not the brake? One option is that the brake caliper mounting is not straight but little bit tilted as compengr suggested. Or perhaps the hose is routed in a such way that is pinched or kinked? If it is FS bike then perhaps during extreme rear wheel movement the hose is stretched too much?

    Is the rear brake hose internally mounted?

  52. #252
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    I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...mid%5B270%5D=1

    It says "for forks" but can I use it on the rear brake as well? What adapters clear the caliper? This is my selection:

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...mid%5B270%5D=1

    It says "for forks" but can I use it on the rear brake as well? What adapters clear the caliper? This is my selection:

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1
    Front or back doesnít matter, a +20 adapter is just that. FWIW, Hope makes some very good adapters. That CNC one in the middle looks good too.

  54. #254
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    The other issue the MTBR rider probably faced is simply cooking the fluid. It's harder to do with DOT than mineral, but still very possible that during descents of that kind of length and intensity that the fluid is done and needs to be properly, entirely flushed and replaced.

    I saw a lot of pics from folks last summer riding the Breck Epic on XC racing rigs with nowhere near enough brakes who had fluid - whether DOT or mineral oil - that was as black as used motor oil. And the Andes mountains are another level or two above Colorado.

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    jazzanova has second set of brakes, bleed multiple times and it's always rear brake that causes trouble.



    This made me think - perhaps it is bike not the brake? One option is that the brake caliper mounting is not straight but little bit tilted as compengr suggested. Or perhaps the hose is routed in a such way that is pinched or kinked? If it is FS bike then perhaps during extreme rear wheel movement the hose is stretched too much?

    Is the rear brake hose internally mounted?
    Nomad 3. No internal routing.
    The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
    After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
    My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
    The last time I swapped the rotors and pads. It was good for 5 rides. Yesterday got the lever to touch the bars after a 3min DH. Nothing extreme, it wasn't constant braking. What baffles me is that Ive had the exact same problem on 2 difgerent sets...
    What seems to trigger it is some hard braking. After that even on easier trail it kicks in pretty fast, maybe after 1min on descend.
    And BTW, I am only 140lbs... 180mm rotors.

  56. #256
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    I looked at the pictures of the Nomad. The brake line routing seemed to be well thought out, so my theory does not hold probably. It would be interesting to see how this rear brake behaves on some other bike.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Nomad 3. No internal routing.
    The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
    After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
    My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
    The last time I swapped the rotors and pads. It was good for 5 rides. Yesterday got the lever to touch the bars after a 3min DH. Nothing extreme, it wasn't constant braking. What baffles me is that Ive had the exact same problem on 2 difgerent sets...
    What seems to trigger it is some hard braking. After that even on easier trail it kicks in pretty fast, maybe after 1min on descend.
    And BTW, I am only 140lbs... 180mm rotors.
    I assume youíre running sintered pads? Not that I think it makes much difference but most folks recommend sintered for high heat scenarios. For me personally it hasnít mattered. Sounds like youíre doing some serious descents but something seems off here. Iím almost twice your weight at 260 and I canít find a single fault on these brakes with 203/180 rotors. I only descend about 1500í at a given time though (my max was 3kí once). I do use Motul RBF600 fluid (from your local motorcycle shop or amazon) so itís a little better with heat than regular 5.1. I set my brakes so if Iím really using them hard itís not that far from the bars, itís more comfortable for me personally. My bite point is extremely consistent.
    Iíd be curious if you swap your calipers f/r if the problem follows. If the problem stays, then swap levers. If the problem still stays then these brakes just canít handle your descents. But, itís quicker and easier to just flush with some good Motul fluid first. Iím sure it goes without saying, but make sure these are always fully bled following the steps in Hayes video anytime the system is opened.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    I cannot find the new Hayes PM160-PM180 adapter anywhere in Europe in stock. But there is another adapter

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...mid%5B270%5D=1

    It says "for forks" but can I use it on the rear brake as well? What adapters clear the caliper? This is my selection:

    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=2
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1
    https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...46%5D=0;page=1
    I've got them all listed in here with sizes, identification and front/rear usage: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou...hayes/adapters
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Nomad 3. No internal routing.
    The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
    After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
    My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
    The last time I swapped the rotors and pads. It was good for 5 rides. Yesterday got the lever to touch the bars after a 3min DH. Nothing extreme, it wasn't constant braking. What baffles me is that Ive had the exact same problem on 2 difgerent sets...
    What seems to trigger it is some hard braking. After that even on easier trail it kicks in pretty fast, maybe after 1min on descend.
    And BTW, I am only 140lbs... 180mm rotors.
    For the lever to come in to the bar, the pistons and pads are being pushed or sucked back enough that it's taking a full lever throw to return them to the rotor.

    I don't know what's doing it. But that's the only possibility. Could you do a DH run that would normally give you lever to the bar, then stop without using the back brake and check it out?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    A quick update, and a data point for jazzanova. Got my set last night. Mounted them up without cutting lines to see how they feel. Front was fine, but the rear lever went almost to the bar. A quick bleed fixed it. It feels no different than the front now.

    Also, the deadband on these seems to be similar to Shimano, meaning there is a fair bit. if someone is expecting it to be short, they will be disappointed. The upside is plenty of pad clearance, even with new pads.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  61. #261
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    I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?
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  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riding Blind View Post
    I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?
    Are they rubbing with the bike in the stand or do you hear them when out riding?

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  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riding Blind View Post
    I went with a set of these brakes on the new bike I just finished putting together (Yeti SB150). For the life of me, I'm not able to get the rotors to not rub. I have followed the directions and went 1/4 turn and spinning the wheel; have also pressed on the pads to make sure the pistons are fully retracted. Does anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?
    Rotors warp when you bolt them up to the hubs. You tweak them straight by (clean) hand afterwards.

    The pistons and pads retraction needs time to relax. Ideally overnight once you've pushed them back. Otherwise just start riding and they'll sort themselves out in a few days.
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    I got mine today and just finished installing them. Out of the box front one was softer than rear, but I had to shorten both hoses so it didn't matter. After bleeding both brakes feel the same. Installing and bleeding was uneventful. I was bit worried initially about working with DOT, but there were no problems.

    There was one thing during the bleeding of the rear brake that worried me. After you have pumped fluid back and forth and there are no more bubbles coming you will push fluid from caliper to master cylinder and at the same time flick the lever to get some air out from master cylinder. When I did that with front brake I got some bubbles first and then no more bubbles. With rear it was different. I kept keeping bubbles as soon as I flicked the lever. I finally gave up and completed the bleed. I hope that there is no problem with seals that would introduce air to master cylinder when I use the brake.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Are they rubbing with the bike in the stand or do you hear them when out riding?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    They are rubbing really bad while in the stand, to the point I will not ride to it gets better. It's like the brakes a barely engaged.
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  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Rotors warp when you bolt them up to the hubs. You tweak them straight by (clean) hand afterwards.

    The pistons and pads retraction needs time to relax. Ideally overnight once you've pushed them back. Otherwise just start riding and they'll sort themselves out in a few days.
    The rotors seem straight and are not rubbing in one spot, it's consistently rubbing through the entire rotation. The rubbing is so bad it's like the brakes are engaged. The rear is much worse than the front and by barely applying pressure to the front lever the wheel will completely lock up. I'm going to re-bleed and not sure what else to try past that.
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  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riding Blind View Post
    They are rubbing really bad while in the stand, to the point I will not ride to it gets better. It's like the brakes a barely engaged.
    Something isn't right. They are either overfilled or you have alignment issues. Did you use the included bleed blocks?



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  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Something isn't right. They are either overfilled or you have alignment issues. Did you use the included bleed blocks?



    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I'm hoping they are overfilled, going to take the bleed screw out and if that doesn't resolve the problem re-bleed. I ordered the hayes alignment tool but it has yet to arrive.
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  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riding Blind View Post
    I'm hoping they are overfilled, going to take the bleed screw out and if that doesn't resolve the problem re-bleed. I ordered the hayes alignment tool but it has yet to arrive.
    Shouldn't need the tool. Pretty easy to eyeball them in place, and fine tune with grub screws. Should take no more than 5 minutes per side.

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  70. #270
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    I bought a Trek 8900 in 1998. It came with the first SID and Hayes very first hydraulic disk brakes. The SID was very light and worked good but it was a bit noodley. The Hayes brakes were the very worst. Light switch applications and no modulation. I put up with that till 2017 and gave the bike away to a needy sole. Needs a special bracket to bolt on modern stoppers. So finally they are making good brakes. We always need more choices. Will put a set on the very next build. XT and XTR works well but everything can be improved. Still looking for the perfect component.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    I bought a Trek 8900 in 1998. It came with the first SID and Hayes very first hydraulic disk brakes. The SID was very light and worked good but it was a bit noodley. The Hayes brakes were the very worst. Light switch applications and no modulation. I put up with that till 2017 and gave the bike away to a needy sole. Needs a special bracket to bolt on modern stoppers. So finally they are making good brakes. We always need more choices. Will put a set on the very next build. XT and XTR works well but everything can be improved. Still looking for the perfect component.
    I'll give you a tip for modulation: Squeeze more gently. Modulation comes from your fingers. Not the brake.

    All brakes do is multiply your lever force into pad force on the caliper. It's directly proportional control. Squeeze harder and you stop harder. If you grab a fistful of Dominion A4 brake lever then your front wheel will stop.

    But with newer bikes being slacker you're better braced to not go flying over the bars.
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  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riding Blind View Post
    The rotors seem straight and are not rubbing in one spot, it's consistently rubbing through the entire rotation. The rubbing is so bad it's like the brakes are engaged. The rear is much worse than the front and by barely applying pressure to the front lever the wheel will completely lock up. I'm going to re-bleed and not sure what else to try past that.
    You need to push the pistons back before you bleed. The bleed blocks set the piston protrusion which sets the right amount of fluid in the system.

    So crack a bleed screw and push the pistons back.
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  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'll give you a tip for modulation: Squeeze more gently. Modulation comes from your fingers. Not the brake.

    All brakes do is multiply your lever force into pad force on the caliper. It's directly proportional control. Squeeze harder and you stop harder. If you grab a fistful of Dominion A4 brake lever then your front wheel will stop.

    But with newer bikes being slacker you're better braced to not go flying over the bars.
    I appreciate your input. However you probably never experienced Hayes Hydraulic brakes from 1998. Of course it was their first attempt at it. I only lived with it for so long as I dislike using brakes and I was a big road guy in those days. There were the worst brakes I ever pulled a lever on.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post
    I appreciate your input. However you probably never experienced Hayes Hydraulic brakes from 1998. Of course it was their first attempt at it. I only lived with it for so long as I dislike using brakes and I was a big road guy in those days. There were the worst brakes I ever pulled a lever on.
    I still own and ride the original Hayes Mags. With 8" rotors. Loved the power, never had an issue with modulation.

    The Dominions have more power than those.
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  75. #275
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    So I have 3 bikes with Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes on them. I'm building up an Orange Alpine 6 shortly, and the brakes are my final purchase before I commence the build. Really keen on the Dominion A4's after reading this whole thread, as well as all the other great reviews that are available online. A couple of questions I have....

    Is it imperative that you use the Hayes rotors on the A4's? If not, would the Hope floating rotor be a good choice?

    Regarding adapters, which always trips me up when I build my bikes, I'm using a Cane Creek Helm fork which fits a 180mm rotor so I'm good there. Trying to find info on whether the Alpine 6 needs an adapter for the rear brake mount. Not finding anything yet online. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Looks like Bike24 and bike-discount.de have the best prices. Universal doesn't even show them on their website anymore. Any other places I should look at?
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  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinboyer View Post
    So I have 3 bikes with Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes on them. I'm building up an Orange Alpine 6 shortly, and the brakes are my final purchase before I commence the build. Really keen on the Dominion A4's after reading this whole thread, as well as all the other great reviews that are available online. A couple of questions I have....

    Is it imperative that you use the Hayes rotors on the A4's? If not, would the Hope floating rotor be a good choice?

    Regarding adapters, which always trips me up when I build my bikes, I'm using a Cane Creek Helm fork which fits a 180mm rotor so I'm good there. Trying to find info on whether the Alpine 6 needs an adapter for the rear brake mount. Not finding anything yet online. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Looks like Bike24 and bike-discount.de have the best prices. Universal doesn't even show them on their website anymore. Any other places I should look at?
    I bought mine from r2bike.

    You should use the Hayes D7 rotors. They are thicker than most other rotors.

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    Thanks Harold. Hope rotors are pretty darn thick too. Not exactly sure on thickness, but my LBS mechanic and I have fought with the E4ís a few times to get the rotors just right. He even commented this past weekend how thick the rotors are. Iíll have to dig around to see what I can find out.

    Edit...https://www.velonews.com/2011/10/mou...n-holes_252053
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  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinboyer View Post
    Thanks Harold. Hope rotors are pretty darn thick too. Not exactly sure on thickness, but my LBS mechanic and I have fought with the E4ís a few times to get the rotors just right. He even commented this past weekend how thick the rotors are. Iíll have to dig around to see what I can find out.

    Edit...https://www.velonews.com/2011/10/mou...n-holes_252053
    Dominion rotor is 1.95mm thick.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...-a4-brake.html

  79. #279
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    The floating rotor attachment points look like you'll have to carefully check clearance.

    I wouldn't bother. Dominion rotors work.
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  80. #280
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    I did another bleed on my brakes and was able to get enough pad clearance to break them in, they work great. I would say modulation and power are right along with the MT7. Even riding in very muddy conditions I had no squealing which was nice and the pads currently installed work way better once they get warmed up. Have a slight warp in the rotors that I will need to bend out but first impressions are all positive. Thanks to everyone for the feedback on my issue and if anyone has any questions regarding the brakes I will do my best to answer.
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    Hi, i bought these brakes and installed them on my Knolly Warden, they replaced some Formula Cura.
    Install was easy, bleeding was long but i had no issues, i followed every step in the Hayes YouTube video.
    Now i can't wait to try them in the weekend, and i'll start with sintered pads.

  82. #282
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    Good brakes.

    I was an XT user for ten years and liked them a lot. Some people complain that Shimano brakes do not have a good modulation, but I think this is only a problem if the levers are too far from handlebars. For me the XT modulation was good. And they hold value very well. I sold my 5 year old brakes for the 2/3 of the price of new XT brakes.

    I liked what I read about the Dominions, but I did not have a real need for them and they were quite expensive. Then I decided to visit Alps this summer and this was a good excuse to upgrade the brakes in order to safely slow down my 100kg on long descents.

    Installation and bleeding was easy even with stupid internally routed rear brake hose.

    I must say that I do not notice the brakes at all. In a good way. They just work, no problems. Very logical brakes

    Last couple of times I was riding bigger and steeper descents that had a loose soil on them. It was easy to control the speed without locking the brakes. I would say little bit easier than with XT brakes.
    Last edited by arnea; 07-10-2019 at 03:04 PM.

  83. #283
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    Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?

    I'm looking to swap out my M8020s and trying to decide between these and Codes. I have had a number of fade issues with other brakes, mainly Guides, but I get some from time to time on my M8020s as well, along with a lack of consistency in lever feel when it gets cold.

    I also understand from reading this post that the levers don't do well run close to the bar, is that correct? I don't have any issue running them further out, but curious how much further out people are running them compared to Guides/Codes/XTs.

    Thanks!

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Nomad 3. No internal routing.
    The second set was cut and bled by Hayes.
    After few rides the rear started to misbehave.
    My LBS bled this set 2x, each time the same thing happened. The brakes were good for maybe 5-8 rides.
    The last time I swapped the rotors and pads. It was good for 5 rides. Yesterday got the lever to touch the bars after a 3min DH. Nothing extreme, it wasn't constant braking. What baffles me is that Ive had the exact same problem on 2 difgerent sets...
    What seems to trigger it is some hard braking. After that even on easier trail it kicks in pretty fast, maybe after 1min on descend.
    And BTW, I am only 140lbs... 180mm rotors.
    Did your issues with these ever get resolved?

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?

    I'm looking to swap out my M8020s and trying to decide between these and Codes. I have had a number of fade issues with other brakes, mainly Guides, but I get some from time to time on my M8020s as well, along with a lack of consistency in lever feel when it gets cold.

    I also understand from reading this post that the levers don't do well run close to the bar, is that correct? I don't have any issue running them further out, but curious how much further out people are running them compared to Guides/Codes/XTs.

    Thanks!
    I've just had a 200kg rider on a set. He loved them.

    For small hands Hayes have released SFL versions of the Dominion (Small Form Lever). Same brake but a different lever geometry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Did your issues with these ever get resolved?
    I believe Jazzanova was attempting to run the brake with pad retraction and lever throw different to it's natural. self-adjusted, state. So as soon as it was used it would revert to normal pad retraction, increased lever throw and blade could hit the bar.

    A setup issue. The brakes were doing what they should. Which is self-adjust the pads and maintain lever stroke.
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  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I've just had a 200kg rider on a set. He loved them.

    For small hands Hayes have released SFL versions of the Dominion (Small Form Lever). Same brake but a different lever geometry.



    I believe Jazzanova was attempting to run the brake with pad retraction and lever throw different to it's natural. self-adjusted, state. So as soon as it was used it would revert to normal pad retraction, increased lever throw and blade could hit the bar.

    A setup issue. The brakes were doing what they should. Which is self-adjust the pads and maintain lever stroke.
    Hmm
    Not sure that was the case.
    The replacement brakes came cut and ready to go from Hayes and the rear felt like shit.
    I bled them few times, my lbs bled them few times. Always good for the first 3-4 rides. I didn't
    What helped a bit was when I swapped the rotors. The rear was slightly warped.
    I do like these brakes but they are a bit inconsistent.
    Im going to try 200mm rotors and see.
    I didn't play with the lever throw or retraction. I don't say it isn't a user error, I am only saying I can't figure out what I or my lbs is doing wrong. The same shop set up my buddies dominions and they feel great. The only visible difference is he likes his levers far away from the bars, I like the opposite.
    I am not giving up and somehow learned to live with them, hopefully the new, bigger rotors and new pads with a new bleed will help. I'll report back.

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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Hmm
    Not sure that was the case.
    The replacement brakes came cut and ready to go from Hayes and the rear felt like shit.
    I bled them few times, my lbs bled them few times. Always good for the first 3-4 rides. I didn't
    What helped a bit was when I swapped the rotors. The rear was slightly warped.
    I do like these brakes but they are a bit inconsistent.
    Im going to try 200mm rotors and see.
    I didn't play with the lever throw or retraction. I don't say it isn't a user error, I am only saying I can't figure out what I or my lbs is doing wrong. The same shop set up my buddies dominions and they feel great. The only visible difference is he likes his levers far away from the bars, I like the opposite.
    I am not giving up and somehow learned to live with them, hopefully the new, bigger rotors and new pads with a new bleed will help. I'll report back.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Clues above in bold.

    All flat rotors warp when bolted up to hubs. They need tweaked straight after. If they don't then the warped rotor can push the pads back more. This gives you inconsistent lever stroke as the pad travel keeps changing.

    Running your levers closer to the bar gives you less margin for error with setup.
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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?
    Yeah. I'm about 202 buck naked, but I rarely ride technical terrain like that. Kitted up, maybe 212.

    I like these brakes. Actually, I liked the Guide RS's that preceded them on this bike, but the Dominions seem to offer a little more power and a little more consistency in lever travel. I run my lever so that it barely touches my middle finger knuckle when my index finger is squeezing hard enough that the wheels would lock up under most conditions.

    I've bled them once, and it was straight forward with no drama. My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors. WTF is up with that. I couldn't use my existing Shimano Freeza rotors, as they're not compatible with the Dominion A4's. I went with Ice Techs, and I've found that they distort when they get hot.

  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors.
    They don't do centre-locks. But they certainly do 203mm rotors. What are you running now?

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/d-serie...-mm-hayes.html
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  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Anyone over 200lbs have experience with these brakes on steep/technical terrain?
    Yeah, Iím about 250. Use 203/180 semi metallic and can drag my brakes down slow steep tech for seemingly forever with no fade. I do use fancy Motul fluid (rbf-600?). I did have a problem with the sintered pads once when I dragged them while riding with my dog on leash and they always howled after that. Iíll chock that up to user error.
    I can positively say that Iíve used these brakes to the extent that destroyed Guide Ultimate pads and my Dominions didnít even sweat. Honestly, itís these, Saints, or Trickstuff for me. The new G2ís look cool and the Code RSCís get decent reviews, but all SRAM brakes Iíve seen eventually get that Turkey Gobble sound ever so slightly as you come to a stop.
    The Dominions are just no fuss, noise free, great to align, lots of pad clearance, and you can get a no BS bleed with the twin caliper ports.

  91. #291
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    Thanks for the info everyone! Dougal, the comment on the rotor warping makes a lot of sense, I never considered that but always wondered why mine end up a little warped even when new.

    I'm seeing mention of the Guides here, which is a bit concerning as the Guides I ran had massively insufficient power for what I needed. Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?

  92. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    My only gripe is that Hayes doesn't offer 203mm or center lock rotors. WTF is up with that.
    Use centerlock-6 bolt adapters. It's what I'm using for my Dominions. No fuss. And I'm using 203/180 rotors on mine, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I'm seeing mention of the Guides here, which is a bit concerning as the Guides I ran had massively insufficient power for what I needed. Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?
    My wife's bike has Guide R brakes and they're nowhere comparable in power to the Dominions. I don't have any experience with Codes or Saints, but they're probably more like those than the Guides. The Dominions are my first "proper" big brake. For me, they've definitely got more power than I usually need. 2 pot Shimanos have just enough at the most for me around here, and it's not been too hard for me to find situations where I wanted a bit more, at least in reserve. The Dominions definitely offer that.

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Yeah. I'm about 202 buck naked, but I rarely ride technical terrain like that.
    ...

    I couldn't use my existing Shimano Freeza rotors, as they're not compatible with the Dominion A4's. I went with Ice Techs, and I've found that they distort when they get hot.
    Lol, yes, major problem riding naked is sliding around on the saddle.

    About rotors - you should not use Shimano or Sram rotors because they are 1.7 mm thick when new, which is the minimum for the Dominion caliper. This will cause problems with lever travel and pad contact pretty quickly.

    You should use Hayes Dominion because of the 1.95mm thickness. Hope V4 and Magura Storm rotors are both 2.0 mm so they may work but you could have some issues with rubbing especially when you have fresh pads.

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  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    Is the power of these closer to what I'd expect with the Guides or something like Codes/Saints?
    More power than Saints. I don't have any significant riding time on Guides or Codes.
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  95. #295
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    Awesome, thanks. I have a chance to check these out locally soon, so I'll see how they feel, but they sound really promising.

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    I started with Shimano XT Icetech rotors that are thinner than Hayes rotors. I hoped that pistons will auto-adjust to thinner rotors, but apparently that wasn't the case. Freestroke was still too long for my liking, I had too run levers far from bars in order to get sufficient stopping power. Yesterday I upgraded to Hayes rotors using Shimano Centerlock adapters. Pushed back the pistons, etc. The freestroke is now really minimal, I'm able to run levers closer to bar. Only downside is increase of weight. Icetech rotors were 148gr, Hayes rotors are 150 (without bolts) and 207gr with Centerlock adapters.

    I was running flat twisty singletrack with lots of turns, where you often have to slow down a little bit. With Dominions it was really easy to get just the right amount of braking.

  97. #297
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    Anyone running an A4 front with an A2 rear?

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  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboasT4 View Post
    Anyone running an A4 front with an A2 rear?

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    I don't know anyone yet running the A2. But that would be my preferred setup. I don't use the back brake much.
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  99. #299
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    I ended up pulling the trigger on a set of A4 Dominions yesterday. I decided against using an A2 for the rear. The price is the same as the A4's and the weight difference is negligible (303g vs 310g per Hayes' website).

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  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Clues above in bold.

    All flat rotors warp when bolted up to hubs. They need tweaked straight after. If they don't then the warped rotor can push the pads back more. This gives you inconsistent lever stroke as the pad travel keeps changing.

    Running your levers closer to the bar gives you less margin for error with setup.
    I have done 5 rides so far with the 203mm rotors +sintered pads and did bleed both brakes as well (used the Hayes bleed block and oil). The rotors are straight.
    I made sure the rotors were right in the middle between the pads. Really took my time with that. Also bedded the new pads and rotors properly.
    The increase in power (going from 180 rotors) is noticeable, I would say about 5-10% more. I have to be a little more careful not to lock the brakes and took few DH runs to rewire my brain.
    The rear feels good so far. On steep, lower speed DHs with sharp SB and almost constant braking there is a tiny bit of stiffening/pumping going on. When the brake is released for a second or so, it goes away, but gets a little bit softer and the lever can be pulled even closer to the bars. It goes back to normal after the brakes have time to cool down more. It isn't as bad, it is manageable and barely noticeable. If it stays this way I am ok with it, but if it gets worse it will be hard to judge where the brake will lock the wheel...
    Last edited by jazzanova; 07-15-2019 at 04:05 PM.

  101. #301
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    Upgraded to Dominion A4s a couple weeks ago. Safe to say I don't miss my XTs (2018, 2-piston flavor) one bit.

  102. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I have done 5 rides so far with the 203mm rotors +sintered pads and did bleed both brakes as well (used the Hayes bleed block and oil). The rotors are straight.
    I made sure the rotors were right in the middle between the pads. Really took my time with that. Also bedded the new pads and rotors properly.
    The increase in power (going from 180 rotors) is noticeable, I would say about 5-10% more. I have to be a little more careful not to lock the brakes and took few DH runs to rewire my brain.
    The rear feels good so far. On steep, lower speed DHs with sharp SB and almost constant braking there is a tiny bit of stiffening/pumping going on. When the brake is released for a second or so, it goes away, but gets a little bit softer and the lever can be pulled even closer to the bars. It goes back to normal after the brakes have time to cool down more. It isn't as bad, it is manageable and barely noticeable. If it stays this way I am ok with it, but if it gets worse it will be hard to judge where the brake will lock the wheel...
    Update.
    9 rides since I installed the new pads, 203mm rotors and bleeding both brakes.
    142miles and 21k ft of DH.
    The brakes have a lot of power with the bigger rotors and sintered pads.
    However the lever throw got a bit longer. I am 5 clicks from the closest position to the bars. After the bleed, the lever throw was about a half the distance than it is now.
    It isn't a deal breaker, but with my close to the bars setup it definitely isnt a short lever throw. It starts engaging about half way in it's travel.
    50mm to 15mm. End of the lever to grips distance.
    The lever gets a bit softer after hard braking and it gets even closer to the bars, it is barely noticeable though. It goes back to normal after a while.


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  103. #303
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    Did you return the lever to the farthest position before bleeding? That makes a huge difference.

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  104. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Did you return the lever to the farthest position before bleeding? That makes a huge difference.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Not this time. But I had done it few times before, didn't seem to make a difference. Will it let more oil in?
    Will try it again.

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  105. #305
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    So it looks like I am experiencing the same issue as this reviewer:
    "as the pad bedded into the rotor, the lever seemed to pull slightly closer to the bar. The two may not be directly related, but whatever the reason, that quick bite wasnít quite as quick by the end of the week. The bleed was perfect, though. And the lever never felt in danger of bottoming out on the grip. In other words, it was far from having too much dead stroke. It just had a below-average amount."

    The whole review:
    https://www.bikemag.com/gear/compone...minion-brakes/


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    Last edited by jazzanova; 07-24-2019 at 03:47 PM.

  106. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Update.
    9 rides since I installed the new pads, 203mm rotors and bleeding both brakes.
    142miles and 21k ft of DH.
    The brakes have a lot of power with the bigger rotors and sintered pads.
    However the lever throw got a bit longer. I am 5 clicks from the closest position to the bars. After the bleed, the lever throw was about a half the distance than it is now.
    It isn't a deal breaker, but with my close to the bars setup it definitely isnt a short lever throw. It starts engaging about half way in it's travel.
    50mm to 15mm. End of the lever to grips distance.
    The lever gets a bit softer after hard braking and it gets even closer to the bars, it is barely noticeable though. It goes back to normal after a while.


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    If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.

    The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).

    The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-ble...uid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.

    So take out the pads, put in that block and pump the lever to bring the pistons out. Push the pistons back in and repeat a few times. Turn the tool around and do the other side.
    Use the fat end of the bleed block and a long lever squeeze to set all pistons and seals in a neutral position after.

    See if this helps. Should only take half an hour and it's a clean job.
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  107. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.

    The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).

    The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-ble...uid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.

    So take out the pads, put in that block and pump the lever to bring the pistons out. Push the pistons back in and repeat a few times. Turn the tool around and do the other side.
    Use the fat end of the bleed block and a long lever squeeze to set all pistons and seals in a neutral position after.

    See if this helps. Should only take half an hour and it's a clean job.
    Thank you!
    I cleaned and oiled all the pistons, repeated the procedure with the Hayes bleed block at least 5x on each side. Both calipers.
    The dead stroke has shortened a bit (at least by 5mm) and the feel at the lever is more direct/firm.
    The pistons were a bit sticky in the beginning, lubing them helped.
    Fingers crossed the sticking pistons were the issue.
    I will report back after few rides.
    Thanks again for the help!
    Last edited by jazzanova; 07-24-2019 at 08:46 PM.

  108. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-ble...uid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.
    That is really well thought out.

  109. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Thank you!
    I cleaned and oiled all the pistons, repeated the procedure with the Hayes bleed block at least 5x on each side. Both calipers.
    The dead stroke has shortened a bit (at least by 5mm) and the feel at the lever is more direct/firm.
    The pistons were a bit sticky in the beginning, lubing them helped.
    Fingers crossed the sticking pistons were the issue.
    I will report back after few rides.
    Thanks again for the help!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If it were a bleed issue then you'd have a mushy lever.

    The Hayes Engineers (who follow this thread) think you might have a sticky piston. They unstick simply by being pumped back and forth but you need a block in the caliper to stop them popping out too far (like past the seal).

    The red block in the bleed kit: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/pro-ble...uid-hayes.html is a bleed block that doubles as a piston stop for this sort of job. The end with the side tabs holds back the pistons on one side while letting the other side pump out a safe amount.

    So take out the pads, put in that block and pump the lever to bring the pistons out. Push the pistons back in and repeat a few times. Turn the tool around and do the other side.
    Use the fat end of the bleed block and a long lever squeeze to set all pistons and seals in a neutral position after.

    See if this helps. Should only take half an hour and it's a clean job.
    I have read some conflicting info regarding lubing the pistons.
    This park tool video recommends using either dot or mineral oil based on the system. https://youtu.be/vQXFFgRButo

    While this pinkbike article says not to lube them at all.
    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tech-spo...l#comment_wrap

    Some coments suggest using a high temperature silicone grease.
    "Neither mineral oil or dot are lubricants but corrosive brake fluids, and both actually cause the piston seals to slightly swell (this is designed into systems and prevent fluid leaks under high pressure)
    Initially, using DOT or Mineral Oil makes it easy to reseat the pistons as they press back easily into the caliper bay.*
    However, it then causes more drag on the piston / seal interface. It seems like a quick fix but often make piston imbalance worse. *The correct lubricant to use is high-temp silicon grease, Avid have their "Pit Stop" variant and Hope use "Hunter" for example. This does require a caliper rebuild to install properly, but ensures a long working life and good piston balance."

    I am not so sure now I did the right thing using dot to lubricate the pistons...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

  110. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I have read some conflicting info regarding lubing the pistons.
    This park tool video recommends using either dot or mineral oil based on the system. https://youtu.be/vQXFFgRButo

    While this pinkbike article says not to lube them at all.
    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tech-spo...l#comment_wrap

    Some coments suggest using a high temperature silicone grease.
    "Neither mineral oil or dot are lubricants but corrosive brake fluids, and both actually cause the piston seals to slightly swell (this is designed into systems and prevent fluid leaks under high pressure)
    Initially, using DOT or Mineral Oil makes it easy to reseat the pistons as they press back easily into the caliper bay.*
    However, it then causes more drag on the piston / seal interface. It seems like a quick fix but often make piston imbalance worse. *The correct lubricant to use is high-temp silicon grease, Avid have their "Pit Stop" variant and Hope use "Hunter" for example. This does require a caliper rebuild to install properly, but ensures a long working life and good piston balance."

    I am not so sure now I did the right thing using dot to lubricate the pistons...

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    You don't need to lube them externally. Working them in and out gets the brake fluid on the pistons from the inside and spreads it across the seals as needed.

    Exactly the same as suspension forks.
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  111. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You don't need to lube them externally. Working them in and out gets the brake fluid on the pistons from the inside and spreads it across the seals as needed.

    Exactly the same as suspension forks.
    Should I just leave them now or should I clean the oil I used?

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  112. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Should I just leave them now or should I clean the oil I used?

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    DOT is fine from a pad/piston point of view, but you want to clean any extra off so it can't get into the pads.
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  113. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    DOT is fine from a pad/piston point of view, but you want to clean any extra off so it can't get into the pads.
    Thanks. You are correct.
    This is from Hayes:
    ďWe lubricate the piston with DOT 4 because it has better lubricant additives than DOT 5.1.* The silicone greases that we have tested have shown good compatibility with the square seals, but we canít recommend ďsilicone greaseĒ in general because there could be one with additives that harm the seal.* Also, some of our testing of silicone grease resulted in a significant retraction reduction resulting in difficult setup and/or rotor rub.

    With any piston lubrication the user has to be careful to apply only a small amount.* Otherwise the lubricant can contaminate the pad by getting onto the pad backing plate and wicking into the pad material through the adhesion holes in the backing plate.

    So I would recommend lubricating the piston with a small amount of DOT 4.Ē

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    Ok, so I have these brakes for two months, everything was great - the stopping power, modulation, no rub etc. Recently I have changed stock pads (organic?) with other pair that came with the brakes (metal?) and can't get rid of the rub on both ends!

    I tried re-aligning pistons to neutral position as described by Dougal but that didn't help. Should I try to re-bleed brakes? Not sure if this is a bleeding issue because levers are firm and bite is strong. Modulation feels weak now - maybe because of metal pads that have greater stopping power.

    The rotors are the same - SRAM Centerline from my previous Guides. I didn't had any issue with them with former pads. Should I change them to Hayes rotors maybe?

  115. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebaru View Post
    Ok, so I have these brakes for two months, everything was great - the stopping power, modulation, no rub etc. Recently I have changed stock pads (organic?) with other pair that came with the brakes (metal?) and can't get rid of the rub on both ends!

    I tried re-aligning pistons to neutral position as described by Dougal but that didn't help. Should I try to re-bleed brakes? Not sure if this is a bleeding issue because levers are firm and bite is strong. Modulation feels weak now - maybe because of metal pads that have greater stopping power.

    The rotors are the same - SRAM Centerline from my previous Guides. I didn't had any issue with them with former pads. Should I change them to Hayes rotors maybe?
    When you push the pistons and pads all the way back. Leave them there overnight to give the square seals a chance to relax.

    Also work them in and out as per directions to Jazzanova a few posts above. When pistons have been out pushing worn pads they are dry and don't like being pushed back in. Working them in and out cleans the pistons and helps the seals reset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    When you push the pistons and pads all the way back. Leave them there overnight to give the square seals a chance to relax.

    Also work them in and out as per directions to Jazzanova a few posts above. When pistons have been out pushing worn pads they are dry and don't like being pushed back in. Working them in and out cleans the pistons and helps the seals reset.
    Yes, I worked in and out pistons but that didn't help, the rub is still there. Will try to push pistons all the way back and leave there for a night.

  117. #317
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    I had a, similar thing happen quite recently. You need to bleed the brakes, and specifically, you need to remove fluid.

    I'm guessing that you had bled the brakes with worn pads. I had done that.

    Also, your sram rotors are not ideal. Plenty of prior discussion about that.

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  118. #318
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    5rides, about 85miles/12k feet descent I can happily report back that after exercising the sticky pistons using the Hayes bleed block I have no more issues with the Dominions.
    No more soft mushy lever or pumping, no more moving point of engagement.
    Just a lot of power and consistent feel with the 203mm rotors and sintered pads.
    Will report later if anything changes.

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    5rides, about 85miles/12k feet descent I can happily report back that after exercising the sticky pistons using the Hayes bleed block I have no more issues with the Dominions.
    No more soft mushy lever or pumping, no more moving point of engagement.
    Just a lot of power and consistent feel with the 203mm rotors and sintered pads.
    Will report later if anything changes.
    Excellent news.
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    Super happy that I got them. First day in the Dolomites, 5000 meters of descent, which was mostly braking because of my lack of skill. I swapped the front and rear pads in the middle of the day because front got so thin. Those were the organic pads, fortunately I have the metalic ones with me and change them for tomorrow. My XT-s would have been melted probably.

    I have question though. The front disc is really black. It was also squueking loudly during the breaking. Should I do something with it immediately or later? Or can I leave it as it is? Does it make sense to swap front and rear discs for now?

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Super happy that I got them. First day in the Dolomites, 5000 meters of descent, which was mostly braking because of my lack of skill. I swapped the front and rear pads in the middle of the day because front got so thin. Those were the organic pads, fortunately I have the metalic ones with me and change them for tomorrow. My XT-s would have been melted probably.

    I have question though. The front disc is really black. It was also squueking loudly during the breaking. Should I do something with it immediately or later? Or can I leave it as it is? Does it make sense to swap front and rear discs for now?
    I had the black glaze before. But with metallic pads. I went back to the semi-metallic and the black glaze scrubbed off and hasn't returned.

    It's still a mystery.
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    I finally got these put on two weeks ago and have put ~70 miles or so on them, along with the install process and two bleeds.

    I really like the feel so far. The lever feel is incredible and the power comes on really nicely compared to other brakes I've run recently. They do seem to run a bit hotter than others I've had (in the rather cheesy and pointless hover-hand temperature test), but they do not seem to fade much, if at all. I did a run down a trail that's traditionally pretty fast here, but has recently become somewhat eroded and chunky for whatever reason. It ended up being a bit of a white knuckle experience for me trying to stay inside the rut and not on the side of the mountain.

    To be blunt, I'm not the fastest rider, I try to ride everything and be smooth, but I'm a good ways behind the more experienced folks I ride with in terms of speed. I also weigh 215lbs and am on a longer travel 29er. These things translate to cooked brakes. I had substantial fade on my Guides and XTs and considerably less on my Code RSCs. I've yet to experience enough fade on these to be of any consideration, there may have been a small amount of lever feel difference near the end yesterday, but considering you could cook an egg on the caliper by the time I got to the bottom and there were very few spots where the back wasn't down a good ways, I don't think it was enough to really consider.

    The alignment system on the caliper is incredible. It makes pulling the caliper off and re-installing it much easier and less error prone, along with reducing drag from your rotors rubbing. The bleed block functioning as a piston lubrication tool is also a really nice touch. To answer an earlier question, both of mine came with the bleed block, along with the barb for trimming the hoses, a new threaded fitting, and a set of metallic pads.

    I do think I slightly prefer the lever ergonomics of the Codes, but just barely. The shorter levers seem more in line with Shimano than SRAM, but the feel is much better in every other way. Once I moved them a bit more inboard, they felt great, I initially placed them where I had the Code levers before and that resulted in some awkward reaching.

    I'd say my only gripes are that the pads load from the bottom, which isn't that big of a deal, but it does mean you'll probably have to pull the caliper to change pads. The biggest is the bleed process, which I've found a bit more prone to fluid leaks than with SRAM, so definitely do it off the bike like their process recommends (if you can, otherwise carefully wrap your frame and cover the bleed fitting with a cloth when you remove it, I suppose).

    The other issue I often have with brakes I've owned is that around the 50% pad wear mark, the lever feel starts to go to pot and the lever pulls all the way to the bar. I haven't reached that point yet with these, so we'll see how it goes. Similar to other users, I run mine pretty close in, so there isn't a huge margin of swing available unless I let it out. We'll see how that feels over time, too early to tell currently.

  123. #323
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    This is kind of silly but I lost my bleed block. The shimano one is a little thinner than hayes and so the pads rub on the rotors if I use the shimano block. Does anyone have an extra, or maybe can measure the thickness and I can try to find or make something the same width?

  124. #324
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    Sigh...

    My Dominions have been working great... until two rides ago. On the epic downhill shredding section, I noticed the front brake lever engaging further and further out. Eventually the ride started feeling "weird," so I brought everything to a stop. From there, I couldn't get going again. The front brake was locked up. I ended up squeezing like crazy on the lever, until it came to the bar, and upon releasing, the pads moved away from the rotor. Odd.

    Fast forward to today. Another epic downhill. I could feel the lever engagement moving further and further from the bars. Again, I stopped. This time the pads were dragging, but the wheel would still roll. Even so, that's in no way safe. Again, I squeezed the bejesus out of the lever until it touched the bars, and all was well.

    There are about 500 miles on the brakes, and I've let a little fluid out of the caliper when the lever throw was less than on the other lever. It made no difference, but it's clear the system isn't overfilled.

    Any ideas what to do next?

    Thanks.

  125. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Sigh...

    My Dominions have been working great... until two rides ago. On the epic downhill shredding section, I noticed the front brake lever engaging further and further out. Eventually the ride started feeling "weird," so I brought everything to a stop. From there, I couldn't get going again. The front brake was locked up. I ended up squeezing like crazy on the lever, until it came to the bar, and upon releasing, the pads moved away from the rotor. Odd.

    Fast forward to today. Another epic downhill. I could feel the lever engagement moving further and further from the bars. Again, I stopped. This time the pads were dragging, but the wheel would still roll. Even so, that's in no way safe. Again, I squeezed the bejesus out of the lever until it touched the bars, and all was well.

    There are about 500 miles on the brakes, and I've let a little fluid out of the caliper when the lever throw was less than on the other lever. It made no difference, but it's clear the system isn't overfilled.

    Any ideas what to do next?

    Thanks.
    The lever moves out as the fluid heats and expands. That is normal. But they should reset to normal stroke every time the lever is released. Because releasing the lever lets the line vent to the reservoir.

    A reservoir that is too full can cause the system to pump up (nowhere for the expanded fluid to go). Which brake did you let fluid from?

    Can you check this behaviour again and see if the lever resets stroke when released?
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  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    A reservoir that is too full can cause the system to pump up (nowhere for the expanded fluid to go). Which brake did you let fluid from?
    The one that was not having the problem.

  127. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    The one that was not having the problem.
    So you overfilled both, let the excess fluid from one and the other is pumping up when it gets hot?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So you overfilled both, let the excess fluid from one and the other is pumping up when it gets hot?
    Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.

  129. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.
    Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me?

    Did you bleed with the Hayes bleed block in place? Are you using Hayes rotors?

    Maybe try the piston lubrication procedure mentioned earlier in this thread to see if that helps, maybe one of the pistons is sticking. I'd also try to center the pads using the pad spacer instead of on the rotor, it seems to help make sure the piston expansion is equal and prevent alignment issues. Neither of those make much sense with the heat issues, but worth trying and simple enough.

  130. #330
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    Something is blocking the bypass from main cylinder to reservoir? Some debris in brake fluid? Perhaps flushing the brake from main cylinder to caliper would help? Another idea is to back off the free stroke adjuster little bit to move the piston away from bypass to make sure that it is always uncovered.

  131. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Please stop. I'll wait and see if anyone else has a suggestion.
    I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.

    Weird.
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  132. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.

    Weird.
    :I was just about to type the same.
    Dougal knows what he is talking about here.

  133. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm the person here with the most resources and experience on these brakes. Yet you're making it impossible for me to actually help you.
    My apologies. I mistakenly thought you were treating me as if I was some kind of goofball with no mechanical or diagnostic skills. It's hard to discern a person's knowledge/skill/intent from a few short sentences.

    Let's start over, and we'll restrict the discussion to the front brake. It has minimal take-up/pad-clearance. In itself, that's fine. However, on steep technical chunk, lever throw becomes less and less until the pads are tight on the rotor. I've let out fluid a few times by loosening a caliper screw and letting some drain onto a rag--but not much.

    I'd like your thoughts on this, and perhaps a couple more questions:

    1. Does it make sense to drain more fluid at this point?

    2. Although it's at the factory settings, can a maladjusted contact point diminish the ability of fluid to return to the lever? I get not touch it, as I read that it's perfect from the factory.

    Thanks.

  134. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    My apologies. I mistakenly thought you were treating me as if I was some kind of goofball with no mechanical or diagnostic skills. It's hard to discern a person's knowledge/skill/intent from a few short sentences.

    Let's start over, and we'll restrict the discussion to the front brake. It has minimal take-up/pad-clearance. In itself, that's fine. However, on steep technical chunk, lever throw becomes less and less until the pads are tight on the rotor. I've let out fluid a few times by loosening a caliper screw and letting some drain onto a rag--but not much.

    I'd like your thoughts on this, and perhaps a couple more questions:

    1. Does it make sense to drain more fluid at this point?

    2. Although it's at the factory settings, can a maladjusted contact point diminish the ability of fluid to return to the lever? I get not touch it, as I read that it's perfect from the factory.

    Thanks.
    Everything points to your front brake being over-filled.

    The only way to get the correct fluid volume in the brake (and reservoir) is to bleed it with the bleed block in place. If you don't have a bleed-block then having all four pistons pushed back flush (i.e. pads slammed back) is the alternative.
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  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The only way to get the correct fluid volume in the brake (and reservoir) is to bleed it with the bleed block in place.
    Thanks. I think I'm good there. How about adjustment of the contact point, for lack of a more accurate term. I'd like your thoughts on that.

  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Thanks. I think I'm good there. How about adjustment of the contact point, for lack of a more accurate term. I'd like your thoughts on that.
    I recommend leaving that completely alone. Lest it stops the MC from reaching top of stroke and not being able to vent into the reservoir.
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    Thanks anyway, Doug. Since it was beginning to look like nobody had experience to share other than bleeding, I DID take it apart after dinner.

    There was a minor assembly error from the factory, but I can't definitively say that contributed to the problem. Sometimes delicate mechanisms are assembled and initially work fine, but after a little time and a little wear, things begin acting up. Taking it all apart gave me the opportunity to see the relationships of the parts. Exploring new mechanisms is always fun.

    Regardless of the cause of the problem, the brake is now set up as it should be, so I'm pretty confident it will run fine once it heats up.

    Adios!
    R
    Last edited by RustyIron; 10-12-2019 at 09:02 PM.

  138. #338
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    Just reporting back. After cleaning and exercising the pistons these brakes are flawless. I went with 200mm rotors and with the metal pads they actually have too much power if there is such a thing. I have to be very very careful not to lock them each time I have to to slow down fast...
    However I have 1 question.
    The front occasionally rubs on uphills when there seems to be less pressure on the handlebars, it makes hauling sound and I can feel slight vibration trough the bars. It never happens on flats or DH, only uphill and mainly uphill switchbacks. I checked the hub, also rotor is straight as well.
    Also, I have tried the Hayes/Sram matchmaker and it doesn't work well for me. I don't have big hands and like to run shifter further away from the brake. It just doesn't go far enough for me.

  139. #339
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    caliper only bleed

    Anyone know why the dual syringe/caliper only bleed says to keep the caliber below the MC? I would think you'd want the caliper above the MC to have any air come out.

  140. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Just reporting back. After cleaning and exercising the pistons these brakes are flawless. I went with 200mm rotors and with the metal pads they actually have too much power if there is such a thing. I have to be very very careful not to lock them each time I have to to slow down fast...
    However I have 1 question.
    The front occasionally rubs on uphills when there seems to be less pressure on the handlebars, it makes hauling sound and I can feel slight vibration trough the bars. It never happens on flats or DH, only uphill and mainly uphill switchbacks. I checked the hub, also rotor is straight as well.
    Also, I have tried the Hayes/Sram matchmaker and it doesn't work well for me. I don't have big hands and like to run shifter further away from the brake. It just doesn't go far enough for me.
    Sometimes fork/frame flex/movement can move the brake rotor to one side when you ride compared to being in a work-stand.
    If you can work-out which side and slightly offset the caliper to that side, it'll run clearer when loaded up.

    My old FSR the rear stays flexed outward, I setup the rear caliper further inwards to compensate so it ran centered when loaded.
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    Here's another great article about brakes from Andrew Major from NSMB.com, this time about the Hayes Dominion.

    https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-domi...-and-torndown/

  142. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddleDuck View Post
    Here's another great article about brakes from Andrew Major from NSMB.com, this time about the Hayes Dominion.

    https://nsmb.com/articles/hayes-domi...-and-torndown/
    Cool to see. A lot of people are still totally unaware of these brakes and how great they are. Looking back now, I do think they're fairly expensive, which I suspect causes people to choose an alternative with more brand-name recognition.

    Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset. I know the type...

  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset. I know the type...
    I thought that was odd also, but their reviews tend to be the most honest of the other publications and they seem to actually spend time with the products they review rather than just run through the queue.

  144. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I thought that was odd also, but their reviews tend to be the most honest of the other publications and they seem to actually spend time with the products they review rather than just run through the queue.
    I *can* align calipers without crosshair. Obviously, you have to be able to do that. But it takes longer and is more difficult. Crosshair makes it fast and easy, so I do value it. Reminds me of something the Angry Singlespeeder would have written here on MTBR 10 years ago.

  145. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I *can* align calipers without crosshair. Obviously, you have to be able to do that. But it takes longer and is more difficult. Crosshair makes it fast and easy, so I do value it. Reminds me of something the Angry Singlespeeder would have written here on MTBR 10 years ago.
    I agree with you, I find it useful for a multitude of reasons, including keeping the caliper in place if bolts loosen and ease of removal/reinstall. I'm not sure why they felt it was unnecessary, but I generally find the folks at NSMB to be more consistent with their reviews than others, despite their impression of the bolts.

  146. #346
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    If anyone is hunting for the correct hayes adapters, I've been in touch with a customer service rep that discovered a bug on their online store where the page exists but is not accessible through the navigation on the site (well done, Phil!). Here's the link to the adapters:

    https://shop.hayesperformance.com/co...-brakes?page=4

    Just ordered and it went through just fine.
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  147. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset. I know the type...
    Hello Colin,

    Here's an alternative perspective for you rather than being judgemental and disparaging by calling Andrew insane and rolling your eyes. We can celebrate that he has the patience and skill to align brakes.

    When we compare that at least one person on this Brake forum who said that he didn't even have the patience to bed in brakes...and when we often rant about the poor skills of LBS mechanics...then we should rejoice in finding someone who has the skills and temprement to do things well. I'm pretty sure that Andrew works at a bike shop...

    Enjoy the rest of your day mate

  148. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddleDuck View Post
    Hello Colin,

    Here's an alternative perspective for you rather than being judgemental and disparaging by calling Andrew insane and rolling your eyes. We can celebrate that he has the patience and skill to align brakes.

    When we compare that at least one person on this Brake forum who said that he didn't even have the patience to bed in brakes...and when we often rant about the poor skills of LBS mechanics...then we should rejoice in finding someone who has the skills and temprement to do things well. I'm pretty sure that Andrew works at a bike shop...

    Enjoy the rest of your day mate
    Maybe I was a little loose with my commentary, and I've forever lost the opportunity for an invite to his dinner table. I don't know him, and he doesn't know me, so obviously I'm not actually attempting to assess his mental health nor am I qualified to do so.

    He's the one who put the review out there saying the crosshair doesn't matter and (I'm paraphrasing) it's a waste of weight. Meanwhile, other reviewers love them. I love them.

  149. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Cool to see. A lot of people are still totally unaware of these brakes and how great they are. Looking back now, I do think they're fairly expensive, which I suspect causes people to choose an alternative with more brand-name recognition.

    Regarding the review itself, I noticed the author says he didn't need or value the crosshair alignment system. Which is, frankly, insane. Then I scrolled back up and saw his bike is a steel rigid with a Chris King headset. I know the type...
    The reason I absolutely love the cross-hair alignment screws is because I'm always swapping suspension forks for testing.

    Mr rigid fork is immune from that totally. He needs to align his brake once. Once.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  150. #350
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    Magura adapters work too

    Odoslanť z M1 pomocou Tapatalku

  151. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The reason I absolutely love the cross-hair alignment screws is because I'm always swapping suspension forks for testing.

    Mr rigid fork is immune from that totally. He needs to align his brake once. Once.
    I think you're in rare company with the fork swaps.. but everyone wears out and replaces rotors, and some people have multiple wheels. Both of those generally necessitate caliper re-alignment.

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  152. #352
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    Had one of my Dominions go bad.
    Front brake, started pulling to the bar mid ride.
    By the time I got back to the car, I had it wound all the way out and it was pulling to the bar.
    Took it home and checked all connections - all are tight. No signs of fluid anywhere leaking in the system. So I bled it with no issues and it seemed fine post bleed.
    Checked it a couple times during the evening, no issues.
    Checked again in the am, still good.
    During the days ride, it started doing the same thing, and by the time I got back to the car, again wound all the way out and pulling to the bar.
    E-mailed Hayes, asking for advice on what to check as I figured I was pulling air in somewhere. I let them know what I did, no apparent leaks, nothing loose etc.
    They told me I had done enough and couriered me a new brake, pro bleed kit, caliper rebuild kit, extra brake line, fittings, reservoir cap and bladder etc.
    Totally set me up. No RMA, just here ya go.

    Shout out to Hayes for seriously stepping up. They are really trying to keep customers happy by the looks of it.

    I have put the new brake on and it has been solid ever since.

    Anybody want to take a guess as to what the OG's problem is, and or how to diagnose it? Trail ridden when it failed both times was mild on mostly flat ground, pretty tight and twisty so not even a mild challenge brake wise. Not that it really matters, but rotors are the new matching Hayes D series.

    I would like to get it back to working status, but don't want to just start throwing parts at it.
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  153. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Had one of my Dominions go bad.
    Front brake, started pulling to the bar mid ride.
    By the time I got back to the car, I had it wound all the way out and it was pulling to the bar.
    Took it home and checked all connections - all are tight. No signs of fluid anywhere leaking in the system. So I bled it with no issues and it seemed fine post bleed.
    Checked it a couple times during the evening, no issues.
    Checked again in the am, still good.
    During the days ride, it started doing the same thing, and by the time I got back to the car, again wound all the way out and pulling to the bar.
    E-mailed Hayes, asking for advice on what to check as I figured I was pulling air in somewhere. I let them know what I did, no apparent leaks, nothing loose etc.
    They told me I had done enough and couriered me a new brake, pro bleed kit, caliper rebuild kit, extra brake line, fittings, reservoir cap and bladder etc.
    Totally set me up. No RMA, just here ya go.

    Shout out to Hayes for seriously stepping up. They are really trying to keep customers happy by the looks of it.

    I have put the new brake on and it has been solid ever since.

    Anybody want to take a guess as to what the OG's problem is, and or how to diagnose it? Trail ridden when it failed both times was mild on mostly flat ground, pretty tight and twisty so not even a mild challenge brake wise. Not that it really matters, but rotors are the new matching Hayes D series.

    I would like to get it back to working status, but don't want to just start throwing parts at it.
    Weird. Did it fade through if you kept steady pressure on the lever? To do that something is allowing bypass around the piston. Cutaway on page 1 shows you most things for strip-down.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  154. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Weird. Did it fade through if you kept steady pressure on the lever? To do that something is allowing bypass around the piston. Cutaway on page 1 shows you most things for strip-down.

    D

    Honestly not too sure.
    Both times I was out trail building and it was at the end of the day. As usual I pushed the time a bit so was trying to get back to the car before dark so did not mess around trying to figure out exactly what was happening. Trail has no sustained braking areas, just tight and twisty in a ravine system, so just quick on and off.

    I run my levers close to the bar, so full lockup is just off of the grip. Things would seem fine, then I'm on the grip but still slowing, then on the grip with no brake. Stop, wind it out a bit, and continue on. 5 minutes later rinse and repeat.

    First time it happened, when I got to the car there was enough front brake to stop a lifted spinning wheel. Second time, to the bar and wheels goes on spinning its merry way.

    The rear is still solid since first built up and I never have to adjust it. Front is back to that with the new brake.

    Thanks

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  155. #355
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    I set up the Dominion A4 on my new Reign 29er and am absolutely loving them! Now to get them on the brake power meter and test them for real...
    Trainer of champions
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  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_phd View Post
    I set up the Dominion A4 on my new Reign 29er and am absolutely loving them! Now to get them on the brake power meter and test them for real...
    Looking forward to hearing your results!

  157. #357
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    Bought a set of these so thought I'd give some insights as well...

    Rear caliper adapter: The Shimano post was a no go. But the Magura QM40 (180 rotor) worked just fine. There is nobody that carries the Hayes adapter, so don't even bother with it.

    Stuck pistons: After reading these posts about stuck pistons, I've done what I've never done with disc brakes: exercise the pistons. One of the caliper's pistons was def uneven, so I went back and forth quite a bit before even starting the bleed procedure. They got better but still not protruding at the same rate, but I went on hoping this would resolve itself with actual use.

    Bleeding: No issues at all using the bleed kit. I even f'd up cutting the line too short, so I had to get a new hose. Everything bled easily even with all the air in the system. I took the lever reach all the way out, and used my bike stand with a spare handlebar per their rec. Also had this extra piece to tie the caliper to the stand so my hands were relatively free with all ports facing up.

    Peacemaker: The clamp is kind of wide, and unfortunately only comes in 1 direction (to the right of the brake). So if you want one on the left side of your bars for your dropper lever, that lever will be inward on the bars. I don't get why Hayes hasn't made a L and R version. Regarding the size of the clamp, fortunately the brake levers are kind of long so they are further in on my handlebars than my XTs...by a lot.

    Looks: They are big brakes. Looking from the top they look huge, but they are slim when looking from the front. The XTs for example look thin from the top, but from the front are deep. So the overall volume probably isn't that far off. The color and style look a bit dated but they do stick out.

    The ride: I need all the help I can get biking. I've pretty much only used Shimano variants (XTs, Zees), and a long time ago had Formula K24s and old Juicys (lever to bar and no stopping!). I never thought this word 'modulation' meant anything in the real world, so I always picked up the cheapest option for brakes. What I noticed was simple when riding the Dominion: no skidding sound on any corner. Just a tap and I was slowing down, and I went around easy. On fast straight sections, small taps and I was in control. Slowed down without having to think about it...for once I didn't have to think 'I'm braking.' The brakes made me faster, all while braking not resulting in a skidding/floating sensation. The irony. No issues so far on the trail with the levers touching the grips.

    Issues?: I noticed a click on one lever that started recently (only about 4 rides so far). Basically when I flick the lever there's a click from somewhere, but it's not on the other lever. I stopped caring about various sounds on my other brakes simply because they were cheap. I did get these are a good price, but I would expect equivalence or consistency.

    My other fear is that Hayes isn't big like your popular brake options like Shimano, Magura, or SRAM. Finding a compression fitting required looking at the archive bins at bike shops. Pads will probably be available online only. So the fear is that if these don't get traction they may become some oddball brakes you may have to replace altogether if the vendor stops support. Then again I still have my Marzocchi 380 fork on the dh bike and not complaining.

  158. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkies View Post
    Bought a set of these so thought I'd give some insights as well...

    Rear caliper adapter: The Shimano post was a no go. But the Magura QM40 (180 rotor) worked just fine. There is nobody that carries the Hayes adapter, so don't even bother with it.

    Stuck pistons: After reading these posts about stuck pistons, I've done what I've never done with disc brakes: exercise the pistons. One of the caliper's pistons was def uneven, so I went back and forth quite a bit before even starting the bleed procedure. They got better but still not protruding at the same rate, but I went on hoping this would resolve itself with actual use.

    Bleeding: No issues at all using the bleed kit. I even f'd up cutting the line too short, so I had to get a new hose. Everything bled easily even with all the air in the system. I took the lever reach all the way out, and used my bike stand with a spare handlebar per their rec. Also had this extra piece to tie the caliper to the stand so my hands were relatively free with all ports facing up.

    Peacemaker: The clamp is kind of wide, and unfortunately only comes in 1 direction (to the right of the brake). So if you want one on the left side of your bars for your dropper lever, that lever will be inward on the bars. I don't get why Hayes hasn't made a L and R version. Regarding the size of the clamp, fortunately the brake levers are kind of long so they are further in on my handlebars than my XTs...by a lot.

    Looks: They are big brakes. Looking from the top they look huge, but they are slim when looking from the front. The XTs for example look thin from the top, but from the front are deep. So the overall volume probably isn't that far off. The color and style look a bit dated but they do stick out.

    The ride: I need all the help I can get biking. I've pretty much only used Shimano variants (XTs, Zees), and a long time ago had Formula K24s and old Juicys (lever to bar and no stopping!). I never thought this word 'modulation' meant anything in the real world, so I always picked up the cheapest option for brakes. What I noticed was simple when riding the Dominion: no skidding sound on any corner. Just a tap and I was slowing down, and I went around easy. On fast straight sections, small taps and I was in control. Slowed down without having to think about it...for once I didn't have to think 'I'm braking.' The brakes made me faster, all while braking not resulting in a skidding/floating sensation. The irony. No issues so far on the trail with the levers touching the grips.

    Issues?: I noticed a click on one lever that started recently (only about 4 rides so far). Basically when I flick the lever there's a click from somewhere, but it's not on the other lever. I stopped caring about various sounds on my other brakes simply because they were cheap. I did get these are a good price, but I would expect equivalence or consistency.

    My other fear is that Hayes isn't big like your popular brake options like Shimano, Magura, or SRAM. Finding a compression fitting required looking at the archive bins at bike shops. Pads will probably be available online only. So the fear is that if these don't get traction they may become some oddball brakes you may have to replace altogether if the vendor stops support. Then again I still have my Marzocchi 380 fork on the dh bike and not complaining.
    For adapters and parts supply. Hayes have been making bike brakes for over 20 years and they still supply pads and pistons for their original brakes.

    Magura is probably the only other MTB brake maker with this much history and consistency.

    Any bike shop worldwide can order you pads, adapters, brakes etc. If they say they can't then they're just being lazy.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  159. #359
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    I have been running the A4s with 203 rotors for about 2 months with the Metal T100 pads. They are fantastic. The new Hayes rotors bring back good memories of the HFX Mag brakes I liked back in the day. Only thing negative about those brakes is you had to use the "chapstick style" loctite on the reach adjust screw because if you used the liquid loctite it would drip into the wrong spots.

    My question is this: What is the minimum pad thickness Hayes recommends before installing new pads? Hayes says 1.7mm on the Rotor but I couldn't find anything on the pads. The reason for my question is when my rear pads hit 3.4mm overall down from 4.0mm new, the lever went to the bar. I did have a ride or 2 before where I drastically had to increase reach to get the bite point hitting about 1.5cm off the grip. Did my mechanic just not do a proper bleed?

    After the ride, I got home and bled the brake and installed new pads and they are working perfectly once I bedded them in.

    Thanks

  160. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice-Bear View Post
    I have been running the A4s with 203 rotors for about 2 months with the Metal T100 pads. They are fantastic. The new Hayes rotors bring back good memories of the HFX Mag brakes I liked back in the day. Only thing negative about those brakes is you had to use the "chapstick style" loctite on the reach adjust screw because if you used the liquid loctite it would drip into the wrong spots.

    My question is this: What is the minimum pad thickness Hayes recommends before installing new pads? Hayes says 1.7mm on the Rotor but I couldn't find anything on the pads. The reason for my question is when my rear pads hit 3.4mm overall down from 4.0mm new, the lever went to the bar. I did have a ride or 2 before where I drastically had to increase reach to get the bite point hitting about 1.5cm off the grip. Did my mechanic just not do a proper bleed?

    After the ride, I got home and bled the brake and installed new pads and they are working perfectly once I bedded them in.

    Thanks
    There wasn't enough fluid in the brake from your first bleed. I've been able to wear pads down to the last mm or so.

    Keep those pads, they've got lots of life left.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  161. #361
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    A few questions from a noob:

    1) I ordered the bleed kit with syringes, which also comes with 2oz of fluid. Is that enough to set the brakes up initially?

    2) On the website, the pictures of the adapters to mount the brake on the frame / fork are not helpful at all. How do I figure out which I need (180 rear and front)?

    3) I read some center lock adapters don't work right with some rotor materials. For those of you running these, what brand are you using?

    TIA!

  162. #362
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    1) Yes it is enough, and you can get DOT 4 or 5.1 at any auto parts store.

    2) Dependent on what your fork and frame are designed with. For instance if your fork or frame has post mounts for 160 you will need some +20mm adapters. Some frames still have IS mounts, in which case you will buy the direct size you need, being 180 mm IS. If your frame and fork are already 180, you don't need adapters. Shimano and SRAM adapters don't allow enough clearance for these calipers, however I did initially grind out about 1/2mm from a shimano to make it work. I then ordered a Hayes one to take a 160 mount to 180. It seems more confusing than it is and I am sure someone can describe it better. I will say that with my frame, the Hayes adapter moved the caliper back and up, which worked better with my frame.

    3) Sorry, I have no experience with centerlock rotors.

  163. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwin24 View Post
    1) Yes it is enough, and you can get DOT 4 or 5.1 at any auto parts store.

    2) Dependent on what your fork and frame are designed with. For instance if your fork or frame has post mounts for 160 you will need some +20mm adapters. Some frames still have IS mounts, in which case you will buy the direct size you need, being 180 mm IS. If your frame and fork are already 180, you don't need adapters. Shimano and SRAM adapters don't allow enough clearance for these calipers, however I did initially grind out about 1/2mm from a shimano to make it work. I then ordered a Hayes one to take a 160 mount to 180. It seems more confusing than it is and I am sure someone can describe it better. I will say that with my frame, the Hayes adapter moved the caliper back and up, which worked better with my frame.
    Thanks for the insight. I've learned that my MRP fork is built for 180, so I'll consult the frame maker on the rear adapter.

  164. #364
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    Here's a Dominion being tested on Hayes Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/p/B5TKN9CBkPE/
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  165. #365
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    One man show of a sponsored guy...

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  166. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    One man show of a sponsored guy...
    Yeah, but the Do minions are still the best brakes on the market today, right with the Maguras.
    Shimano, Sram and Hopes can suck it.

  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Yeah, but the Do minions are still the best brakes on the market today, right with the Maguras.
    Shimano, Sram and Hopes can suck it.
    Better than Magura MT7 in the real world due to easier bleeding and dot fluid being superior to mineral oil. Better than everything other than the MT7 due to weight, power, lever feel, etc.

    I just thought that was a dumb comment. Why bother wandering into the Hayes thread if you're a self-proclaimed MTB brakes' (sic) specialist who puts XTR brakes in their signature?

  168. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    One man show of a sponsored guy...
    Sponsored? Nah, that's Remy Metailler, he's a way better rider and can do things like this:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B3M4g2eAF6J/

    I'm just a Hayes rider since 2000 and big fan who ended up being a distributor and test rider.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  169. #369
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    @ColinL
    Shure, they are great, but all the greatness comes at a price, which is justified.
    I use XTR 4-pot and before I had Saint 4-pot.
    They are cheaper, but since they work like a Swiss watch, I can't complain.

    Saying that other brakes suck, just because you had no luck with them or haven't even owned them and your opinion is based only on what you have read on the net...

    Also doubting someone's knowledge, just because the person doesn't have the most expensive brakes or they are not the ones one thinks about when talking quality/consistency...

    So poor and narrow minded.

    Following such a logic, one could then also say, that Dominion are nowhere near Trickstuff Diretissima, which cost even more.

    It's always about price/performance.

    One can't say, that Porsche is worse than Ferrari.

    And I don't have to ask for permission what I can/have to put in my signature and what and where to post or not.

    I have my bike and brakes in signature just for info, when discussing something somewhere. One can directly see what is my setup. That's it.

    It's so dumb from your side to downrep me, because you didn't like something.
    There can't just be one right opinion, which is yours.

    It's very likely to see people reporting problems with different brakes' manufacturers on different forums, since most people register to ask for advise or to complain.
    Because most people that have no problems, they just ride and don't spend their time on forums to bash on/at something/somebody.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  170. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    @ColinL
    Shure, they are great, but all the greatness comes at a price, which is justified.
    I use XTR 4-pot and before I had Saint 4-pot.
    They are cheaper, but since they work like a Swiss watch, I can't complain.

    Saying that other brakes suck, just because you had no luck with them or haven't even owned them and your opinion is based only on what you have read on the net...

    Also doubting someone's knowledge, just because the person doesn't have the most expensive brakes or they are not the ones one thinks about when talking quality/consistency...

    So poor and narrow minded.

    Following such a logic, one could then also say, that Dominion are nowhere near Trickstuff Diretissima, which cost even more.

    It's always about price/performance.

    One can't say, that Porsche is worse than Ferrari.

    And I don't have to ask for permission what I can/have to put in my signature and what and where to post or not.

    I have my bike and brakes in signature just for info, when discussing something somewhere. One can directly see what is my setup. That's it.

    It's so dumb from your side to downrep me, because you didn't like something.
    There can't just be one right opinion, which is yours.


    It's very likely to see people reporting problems with different brakes' manufacturers on different forums, since most people register to ask for advise or to complain.
    Because most people that have no problems, they just ride and don't spend their time on forums to bash on/at something/somebody.
    LOL!

    *You* showed up here with nothing to say EXCEPT to bash on Dougal's post. I actually did not say that Shimano sucked, that was another person, whom I quoted and responded about the Magura piece of his reply. Because I like Magura, but not as much as I like Hayes Dominion.

    You might want to look where you're pointing the blame. You deserved the negative rep. Cheers!

  171. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    *You* showed up here with nothing to say EXCEPT to bash on Dougal's post.
    You might want to look where you're pointing the blame. You deserved the negative rep. Cheers!
    I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
    I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I actually did not say that Shimano sucked.
    Oh really?
    What about that then?
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    you're a self-proclaimed MTB brakes' (sic) specialist who puts XTR brakes in their signature
    You wanted to say, that XTR are bad or that I don't know anything about brakes, because I don't have Dominion or because I have XTR on my bike?
    So pathetic.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  172. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    You wanted to say, that XTR are bad or that I don't know anything about brakes, because I don't have Dominion or because I have XTR on my bike? So pathetic.
    is English your first language? I suspect it isn't. whether it is or not, you are projecting things that I haven't said. the reason I commented on your signature and your title, both of which you created in your profile on MTBR, is because it's weird.

    "brakes' specialist" does not need an apostrophe as you have it in your profile. just brakes specialist will do.

    then we have your signature. there are other users who put bike info and even components in their signature. forks, wheels, I've even seen folks putting the weight of their bike and some former bikes they used to own but now have sold.

    but you only have one component, your XTR trail brakes, and you actually included the specific Shimano part numbers. that's just strange. I mean, are we supposed to look at that and think - wow, he has XTR brakes? but what model? they've made XTR brakes a long long time, but XTR Trail not as long... OOOHHH that model, how awesome!

    just go away, troll. and have a happy thanksgiving while you're at it.

  173. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
    I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.


    Oh really?
    What about that then?

    You wanted to say, that XTR are bad or that I don't know anything about brakes, because I don't have Dominion or because I have XTR on my bike?
    So pathetic.
    Why don't you just go back to your Shimano threads?
    You have brought 0 value to this forum. You have no experience whatsoever with the Dominions.
    At least my comment was based on my personal experience (I have owned at least 4 pairs of XTRs, besides other brakes)

  174. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    is English your first language? I suspect it isn't. whether it is or not, you are projecting things that I haven't said. the reason I commented on your signature and your title, both of which you created in your profile on MTBR, is because it's weird.

    "brakes' specialist" does not need an apostrophe as you have it in your profile. just brakes specialist will do.

    then we have your signature. there are other users who put bike info and even components in their signature. forks, wheels, I've even seen folks putting the weight of their bike and some former bikes they used to own but now have sold.

    but you only have one component, your XTR trail brakes, and you actually included the specific Shimano part numbers. that's just strange. I mean, are we supposed to look at that and think - wow, he has XTR brakes? but what model? they've made XTR brakes a long long time, but XTR Trail not as long... OOOHHH that model, how awesome!

    just go away, troll. and have a happy thanksgiving while you're at it.
    Whether english is my native language or not, has nothing to do with bikes/brakes.
    I don't have to justify myself in front of you.

    I put in my signature what I want and I don't have to ask permission what to put there.
    Everyone decides what to put in their signature.
    I wanted to have my brakes there, so they're there.
    There is nothing weird. It's just to make it clear that they are 4-pot version, that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Why don't you just go back to your Shimano threads?
    You're not the one, who will tell what and where to post.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    You have brought 0 value to this forum. You have no experience whatsoever with the Dominions.
    Have I said somewhere that I have experience with them? Bad experience? No.
    But that doesn't mean I have no experience with them, which you already assume to be the case, for some reason.
    Don't know why you've written this.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    At least my comment was based on my personal experience (I have owned at least 4 pairs of XTRs, besides other brakes)
    Then I can understand your pain associated to Shimano brakes.
    For my part, I never had any troubles with any of mine.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  175. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    Following such a logic, one could then also say, that Dominion are nowhere near Trickstuff Diretissima, which cost even more.

    It's always about price/performance.
    Why do you assume that? I would love to see a head to head comparison between those two.

    Sometimes you're paying for what you get. Sometimes you're paying a lot more for small volume runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    I said what I said and it wasn't nothing.
    I pointed out, that he clearly is advertising a product, furthermore, as distributor, which shouldn't be done here.
    The rule is that reps must declare their interest. Which I do in my signature, I'd like to write more but it's at the character limit already.

    I'm completely up front about that and always have been. I'm also a test rider who has been on Dominion prototypes for a significant amount of time and I have direct contact with the Engineers who designed it. So I'm in a very good position to help users with setup and other issues.

    Which is exactly what I do here.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  176. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Why do you assume that? I would love to see a head to head comparison between those two.

    Sometimes you're paying for what you get. Sometimes you're paying a lot more for small volume runs.
    I'm aware of the fact, that the result of their performance isn't on par with their price.
    They're overpriced.
    But they're manufactured on demand only. So the production is limited and is in Germany, not in China.
    This is where the final price comes from. But it's still not justified.
    To pay such a price for them or not is up to the user.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The rule is that reps must declare their interest. Which I do in my signature.
    I'm completely up front about that and always have been.
    Didn't know about this and haven't paid enough attention to your signature.
    Good to know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So I'm in a very good position to help users with setup and other issues.
    Which is exactly what I do here.
    Then it's good to have somebody that has direct contact to the engineers and can provide good advises first hand.

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  177. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groove_c View Post
    I'm aware of the fact, that the result of their performance isn't on par with their price.
    They're overpriced.
    But they're manufactured on demand only. So the production is limited and is in Germany, not in China.
    Who is making brakes in China?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  178. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Who is making brakes in China?
    I would assume nobody.
    I said this just to underline the main reason for Direttissima's cost (Germany).

    Scott Genius 710 (2016)
    XTR Trail levers (BL-M9020) + XTR Trail calipers (BR-M9120)

  179. #379
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    Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

  180. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
    Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
    I would assume not. Are most bleed kits specific to the brake?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  181. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I would assume not. Are most bleed kits specific to the brake?
    Someone said it was an m5 screw on the bleed ports which is the same as the regular sram.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

  182. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
    Anyone know if the sram bleed kit works with the dominions?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
    Yes it will work. Fittings are the same. But you should invest in some better fluid. Dot5.1
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  183. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes it will work. Fittings are the same. But you should invest in some better fluid. Dot5.1
    Yeah I use Motul dot 5.1 already on all the dot brakes that I have.

  184. #384
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    The Avid Pro Bleed Kit will not work without modification. The fitting that screws into the caliper is too large and hits the caliper body before making a seal.




    I ended up using a dremel to good effect. Now I have the Hayes bleed kit, so no worries about grabbing the un-modded fitting for the caliper by mistake.

    The Avid syringe is far superior, but the hoses are different sizes and different fittings, so a direct swap is not possible. That would be the best of both worlds. Going to have to see what I can come up with to put the Hayes fittings onto the Avid syringe assembly.
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  185. #385
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    I have the bleed kit.com one which is much thinner at the barrel so should fit.



    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

  186. #386
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    Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend.

    I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.

  187. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend.

    I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.
    You will get best results if you are removing bubbles at the highest point in the system.

    Internal cabling doesn't change things much. Even though someone with external brake hose could remove all their zip ties to move the caliper higher it's generally not worth the time. No matter how the hose is run you can just clamp the bike in a stand and rotate it as much as you need to make the caliper higher than the brake lever if you're pulling at the caliper.

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  188. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Am I over thinking the bleed process?

    Not overthinking... lack of understanding how air bubbles behave within a small irregular hose containing a viscous fluid.

    Leave the brakes on the bike, rotate the lever if that makes you happy. Push all the old fluid out, then push a new syringe full of clean fluid to push back and forth until all the bubbles are gone.

    Or just follow the instructions. But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.

  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Not overthinking... lack of understanding how air bubbles behave within a small irregular hose containing a viscous fluid.

    Leave the brakes on the bike, rotate the lever if that makes you happy. Push all the old fluid out, then push a new syringe full of clean fluid to push back and forth until all the bubbles are gone.

    Or just follow the instructions. But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.
    You were kind of mean, to be honest. Why would you assume he doesn't know how air behaves?

    You're also wrong, in that he *is* attempting to follow the instructions. It had been over a year since I watched the video, but I vaguely remembered Hayes talking about removing the lever and caliper from the bike.

    And sure enough, it's there, around 2:50-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UGEF4TB2ZM

    Now, as to the necessity, I do agree with that because as I stated you can just rotate the bike in a stand. It doesn't have to be a straight vertical path between the low and high point when bleeding. Anywhere above is better than below, and somewhere around 45 degrees is usually enough to ensure all the air bubbles get moving.

  190. #390
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    ^ Thanks to both of you. So, like many things, I tend to go all literal with the instructions. So, Bleeding from the MC I can put the bike in the stand with the rear wheel on the floor. When I get to the caliper, set the stand so the front tire is touching the floor, pull the caliper off the post mount to get it fully perpendicular to the ground and proceed. Sound about right?

    Never done a bleed before, so this will be a first.
    First I need to push all the fluid out before I run the line up the downtube from the caliper side. Is it easier to push the fluid out from the MC end or from the caliper end?

  191. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Am I over thinking the bleed process? How am I supposed to bleed these brakes with internal cabling? I'm not sure I can get the angles right without putting the MC on a different bar like the instructions recommend.

    I'm considering gluing some external cable guides to make it easier to pull the whole system for bleeds.
    Yes you're over-thinking it. The Dominions bleed with the levers down at the angle you run them. I am not a fan of internal cable routing, but once you've got them installed, and not tapping the frame inside, you're good.

    Put the syringes on, one full of fluid, pump and suck fluid through in both directions to chase all the air out. Be careful to not introduce new air.

    Use the bleeding block to set the piston protrusion. This takes care of the correct fluid volume in the bladder reservoir when you're done.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  192. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Sound about right?
    Far be it from me to suggest methodology that deviates from the cherished Youtube videos... but... don't knock yourself out trying to get everything vertical. The surface tension of the brake fluid is greater than the gravitational force that forces the fluid down and the air bubble up. In other words, you can have a tiny bubble that's stuck in a hose, and the hose is vertical, but the bubble will stay there indefinitely. The bubble will move if you push the fluid through the hose, but if you don't move the fluid, it will stay there forever. Focus on pushing the fluid.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    First I need to push all the fluid out before I run the line up the downtube from the caliper side. Is it easier to push the fluid out from the MC end or from the caliper end?
    That's how I start. Push it bottom to top. Then I throw out all the dirty old fluid and put on another nearly-full syringe. Now everything is clean. Push it bottom to top again. Then push it top to bottom. Do this several times until you are fairly certain there are no bubbles.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Never done a bleed before, so this will be a first.
    Have fun with it. Don't stress. It's not rocket science. With a little attention to detail, you'll do better than the majority of bike shops.

  193. #393
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    And buy quality dot 5.1. Motul is dirt cheap at motorcycle shops or car dealerships and way better than any mtb branded one.



    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

  194. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post

    Or just follow the instructions. But don't remove the internally routed HOSE from the bike. That's totally unnecessary.
    Yeah, once the internal hose is in there, it's staying.

    Quote Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
    And buy quality dot 5.1. Motul is dirt cheap at motorcycle shops or car dealerships and way better than any mtb branded one.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
    I bought the bleed kit from Hayes, so it comes with some MTB stuff. Next bleed will be with something like you recommend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes you're over-thinking it. The Dominions bleed with the levers down at the angle you run them. I am not a fan of internal cable routing, but once you've got them installed, and not tapping the frame inside, you're good.
    Alchemy gave me some padded tubes to run cables through.. hopefully that keeps em quiet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Put the syringes on, one full of fluid, pump and suck fluid through in both directions to chase all the air out. Be careful to not introduce new air.

    Use the bleeding block to set the piston protrusion. This takes care of the correct fluid volume in the bladder reservoir when you're done.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    That's how I start. Push it bottom to top. Then I throw out all the dirty old fluid and put on another nearly-full syringe. Now everything is clean. Push it bottom to top again. Then push it top to bottom. Do this several times until you are fairly certain there are no bubbles.

    Have fun with it. Don't stress. It's not rocket science. With a little attention to detail, you'll do better than the majority of bike shops.
    Awesome. So, one other question;
    1. In the pdf for bleeding, they connect both the syringes to the caliper after you've bled from the MC. Is that necessary for a standard bleed? Steps 10 / 11 in the pdf. Is that what sets the piston protrusion?

  195. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    Yeah, once the internal hose is in there, it's staying.



    1. In the pdf for bleeding, they connect both the syringes to the caliper after you've bled from the MC. Is that necessary for a standard bleed? Steps 10 / 11 in the pdf. Is that what sets the piston protrusion?
    That's so you can bleed both sides of the caliper pistons for a more perfect bleed. Since you cutting cables just might as well do a complete full bleed.

  196. #396
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    So I got my Dominions and the bleedkit.com sram older version bleedkit fits perfectly with no modifications.

    I also noticed that the brake levers are identical on both sides. Why didn't Hayes just make one SKU and have people flip them over like Magura?

  197. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
    I also noticed that the brake levers are identical on both sides. Why didn't Hayes just make one SKU and have people flip them over like Magura?
    Rear brake has a longer hose. That's the only difference in the two SKU's.
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  198. #398
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    So... when bleeding, do you guys get a slow drip from the MC. I can't tell exactly where it's coming from, but it seems like its from the threaded intersection with the syringe.

  199. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_of_earth View Post
    So... when bleeding, do you guys get a slow drip from the MC. I can't tell exactly where it's coming from, but it seems like its from the threaded intersection with the syringe.
    you shouldn't have a drip.

    the most likely place to leak is the hose if the barb + olive is not sealing, or you haven't torqued the nut sufficiently. the best way to test for this type of leakage is to remove the syringe and put the cover / bolt back in. then test the brake. if it leaks, you'll know.

    the next most likely is your syringe leaking especially if you have multiple fittings. this may not be a big deal.

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