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  1. #1
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    Crazy brake idea one lever both brakes

    Hi im setting around, its cold right now and im thinking about one brake lever operation both brakes, what do you guys think of this? I think that it could be done with hydraulic brakes very easily.

  2. #2
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    I recall Formula trying that about 15years ago (confirm that anyone?) but I don't recall seeing it on anything other than the race bike.... I thought about doing once after seeing it, but I think that after bleeding it I would not ever want to do that again....

    Just thinking off of the top of my head: the longer hose to the rear brake would never have the same pressure as the front hose during braking, thus you would have a lot of front braking power with little rear... or if the rear had o-rings that were less tight due to production tolerances then you would have lots of rear brake and a delay on the front....
    Anyone thinking of other variations??

  3. #3
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    Dumb brake idea one lever both brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by wxc300
    Hi im setting around, its cold right now and im thinking about one brake lever operation both brakes, what do you guys think of this? I think that it could be done with hydraulic brakes very easily.
    FIFY.

    While it could be possible, with lots of duct tape, a cigarette lighter, a case of beer, and depleted uranium rounds, I prefer to use my brakes separately. Sometimes I only want the front, and sometimes I only want the back. Or somewhere in between, at different pressures (shocking I know).

    Leave the single brake actuator for the dummies who drive cars .

  4. #4
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    two levers gives the rider manual traction control. dont know if youve done this, but when the front starts to slide, I consciously let go of the front brakes. when going down steep rocks, I like to drag the rear wheel and knuckle the left hand on the bars. under steering a corner? I lock up the the rear wheel for a millisecond to change course. And how will we ever hit an endo stoppie with one brake lever

  5. #5
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    I have rode atvs with this setup and it works quiet good, I know its a compromise as a 1-9 gear set up is.

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    I know its a compromise, I have rode atvs with this setup and it works very good.

  7. #7
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    The brake lever probably won't push enough fluid for this to work effectively. For DH wheelchairs where they have 2 front /2 rear brakes I've seen them stack levers.

  8. #8
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    Not sure about Hydros, but I have set up several single lever cable brakes for disabled riders who either are missing an arm or have lost a lot of strength in one hand. Problem Solvers makes a cable doubler that you can hook up one lever to run both brakes. You can also make one brake grab before the other. Even though the front brake is the more powerful one, most riders I have set this up on prefer the back to grab a little first before the front grabs.

  9. #9
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    Well there goes your modulation!!

    Horrible idea!
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  10. #10
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    ATV's typically have a separate rear only (foot) brake for use in certain conditions/situations.

    Getting the proportioning right for every weight rider in a bike would be almost impossible. Plus if you have a failure you have a back up, not complete failure. I don't believe very many motorcycles have even gone to a "one Brake" system. Maybe BMW, but I think that's anti-lock anyway.

    I prefer the current separate system.

    Rock
    How can anyone who's been riding as long as I have, be so slow???

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock
    ATV's typically have a separate rear only (foot) brake for use in certain conditions/situations.

    Getting the proportioning right for every weight rider in a bike would be almost impossible. Plus if you have a failure you have a back up, not complete failure. I don't believe very many motorcycles have even gone to a "one Brake" system. Maybe BMW, but I think that's anti-lock anyway.

    I prefer the current separate system.

    Rock
    Some have gone to a "linked-brake" system, but it is mostly for "commuter" type riders or tourers. For performance bikes (much like mountain bikes) the riders ability to control his bike at the limits is severely impeded.

    It is probably a viable solution for a commuter bike or something like that. But not likely to be used on the trails or at a race.
    Voodoo Canzo 29er (sporting a Lefty) + Raleigh XXIX SS + Traitor Crusade SSCX + Lapierre Xelius XDJ

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by civil
    Leave the single brake actuator for the dummies who drive cars .
    What about the dummies with only one hand?

    Although, a thumb brake is a much better option for having both brakes on one side of the bars.

  13. #13
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    What would be the benefits? I can only think of downsides to this one.
     
    Sometimes I say stupid things

  14. #14
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    Great idea for non-technical riding. Bad idea for fast downhills, technical sections, etc. Most of the time 70/30(F/R) braking is preferred. However, if you're taking some steep technical trails, using 70% on the front is going to send you OTB in quick order. Having one set allocation for braking power is not a good idea unless you always do one type of riding. So probably great for commuting as others have said, but not a good idea for MTB.
    "Got everything you need?"

  15. #15
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    I'd rather have a single front lever and a coaster brake before I put both brakes on one lever

  16. #16
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    Funny...

    Quote Originally Posted by civil
    Leave the single brake actuator for the dummies who drive cars .
    I sometimes think how cool it would be if there were two brake pedals (like, split in half down the middle) in my car. You could modulate front and rear brake by rocking your foot between the two closely mounted pedals.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I sometimes think how cool it would be if there were two brake pedals (like, split in half down the middle) in my car. You could modulate front and rear brake by rocking your foot between the two closely mounted pedals.
    Fun, but I'd burn through too many rear tires!
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade
    What about the dummies with only one hand?

    Although, a thumb brake is a much better option for having both brakes on one side of the bars.
    ....or with no hands, or with no feet, or one foot and one hand, or with no feet and no hands, or with........

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bing!
    two levers gives the rider manual traction control. dont know if youve done this, but when the front starts to slide, I consciously let go of the front brakes. when going down steep rocks, I like to drag the rear wheel and knuckle the left hand on the bars. under steering a corner? I lock up the the rear wheel for a millisecond to change course. And how will we ever hit an endo stoppie with one brake lever
    +1 I do the same. I love having separate brake levers - i feel like i have more control.
    But, i must say that hearing this being done for people with disabilities...

  20. #20
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    Grimeca's 6 piston system 18 linked the front and rear brakes. I don't think they still make them.

    The front lever made only 4 pistons of the front caliper move, while the rear lever made all 6 pistons on the rear caliper move as well as the 2 on the front that the front lever didn't move.

    Tim

  21. #21
    NWS
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I sometimes think how cool it would be if there were two brake pedals (like, split in half down the middle) in my car. You could modulate front and rear brake by rocking your foot between the two closely mounted pedals.
    Meh, that's for beginners. Real men set up the brakes pedals as left/right rather than front/rear.




    (well, it sounds pretty fun, anyway...)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS
    Meh, that's for beginners. Real men set up the brakes pedals as left/right rather than front/rear.

    (well, it sounds pretty fun, anyway...)
    And they call it a tractor, backhoe, etc.

  23. #23
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    I wonder if anyone's ever made an anti-lock brake system for a bike? I don't think it would be that hard-- you would need a speed sensor on each wheel, and a rotation sensor to see if you are about to go over the bars. Or since locking the front wheel is difficult without going over the bars, maybe just one speed sensor and a rotation sensor.

    The sensors would be monitored by a microcontroller that would detect if a wheel is locked or if you are about to go over the bars. Then it would interrupt braking power to the appropriate wheels to keep you in control. The most difficult part in my opinion would be the mechanism that interrupts braking power, since hydraulic brakes work at very high pressure.

    Sure this isn't necessary or even that helpful for effective braking, but it would be a fun project to try to get working. As a minimum it would be nice for the back wheel, which is easy to lock up in any conditions.

    It looks like people have thought about it, and some have tried it.
    http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Bicycle_20ABS
    Matt

  24. #24
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    It was probably a dentist who thought of rigging this up for fully-abled people. Either that or perhaps we are headed towards texting while riding.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  25. #25
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    The longer hose wouldn't decrease the brake power to the rear. Longer hoses only cause a pressure drop in a fluid flow. And the drop is proportional the speed of the flow. Once the pads reach the rotor, the brake fluid does not flow (for all practical purposes) it only transmits force. Thats the beauty of hydraulics, constant pressure everywhere in the fluid(neglecting tiny influence by gravity

    That being said, I don't think the engineering challenges have anything to do with why these are not being used. I agree with everyone else, two brakes are better than one.

    I think its going to be hard to improve on the current theory of braking design. The only thing that comes to mind might be a new front brake with a sort of abs like mentioned above.
    Two wheel speed sensors compare speed of each wheel to each other. If the front wheel speed dips below the rear that means the front is approaching a lockup. But instead of "interrupting" brake force, it could divert some to the rear. But now we are talking solenoids and batteries and computer chips, oh my. . . . !

  26. #26
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    Thats the beauty of hydraulics, constant pressure everywhere in the fluid(neglecting tiny influence by gravity

    Wherein my issue arises! I believe that because of our choice of flexible and light hose materials in this sport, that we have inherently accepted a weakness generally not found elsewhere in motorsports. We 'chosen' to go the lighter route and skimped on hose material strength in favour of its light weight and flexibility ( correct me if I'm wrong ). In so doing we have also taken very small fluid flow volume (because of weight issues). So I wonder whether the expansion of the hose is the cause of the percieved (?) delay in brake feel at the rear (as opposed to the front brake which always appears to be the same to me)??

  27. #27
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    On motorbikes which use something like this you do not really have one brake,
    you have a brake which activates the front and the rear simultaneously but puts more brake power on the front brake
    and a rear brake.

  28. #28
    SyT
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    The Honda vfr acitvates one front rotor and the rear. No real motorcyclist wants this. They want control of what (force) goes were (front or rear) This bs is for people that can't or won't commit to learning the proper use of the controls. They should stay in their cars or on their couch. I'm pretty anti ABS, TC and launch control as well.

  29. #29
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    Simply put, you'll eventually die from an uncontrolled crash if you run both brakes on one lever...
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambassadorhawg
    Simply put, you'll eventually die from an uncontrolled crash if you run both brakes on one lever...
    to put it all into a bigger perspective, you'll eventually die.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    to put it all into a bigger perspective, you'll eventually die.
    ...but you'll die quicker if you rig your bike this way...it is written...
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambassadorhawg
    ...but you'll die quicker if you rig your bike this way...it is written...
    sure, but I think the way the lack of control would making the riding less fun is even more important

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    sure, but I think the way the lack of control would making the riding less fun is even more important
    ...and it would surely cause an accident in no time at all...with a bigger chance of serious injury or death due to the unbalanced loss of control...
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambassadorhawg
    ...and it would surely cause an accident in no time at all...with a bigger chance of serious injury or death due to the unbalanced loss of control...
    well aware buddy, I was just trying to lighten the mood.

    Like I said earlier I would rather have to use an inferior coaster brake on my back wheel in combination with a good front brake than two good brakes on the same lever

  35. #35
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    I would rather no brakes at all and fly down some 60% downgrade naked than to use both brakes on one lever, LOL! Rediculous!
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by m85476585
    I wonder if anyone's ever made an anti-lock brake system for a bike? I don't think it would be that hard-- you would need a speed sensor on each wheel, and a rotation sensor to see if you are about to go over the bars. Or since locking the front wheel is difficult without going over the bars, maybe just one speed sensor and a rotation sensor.

    The sensors would be monitored by a microcontroller that would detect if a wheel is locked or if you are about to go over the bars. Then it would interrupt braking power to the appropriate wheels to keep you in control. The most difficult part in my opinion would be the mechanism that interrupts braking power, since hydraulic brakes work at very high pressure.

    Sure this isn't necessary or even that helpful for effective braking, but it would be a fun project to try to get working. As a minimum it would be nice for the back wheel, which is easy to lock up in any conditions.

    It looks like people have thought about it, and some have tried it.
    http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Bicycle_20ABS
    I personally would freak out if I was going down a hill and needed to stop bad and locked up the brakes only to feel the pressure leave my lever so the wheels wont' lock up. On the street ABS might be ok but in dirt everything causes the wheels to lock up. You would never be able to stop on a steep loose down hill.

    And ABS doesn't really make you stop faster its main objective is to allow you to steer while fully on the brakes. On a car if the front wheels are locked up you loose your steering. On dirt and on 2 wheels this isn't a factor.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialWarr
    I recall Formula trying that about 15years ago (confirm that anyone?) but I don't recall seeing it on anything other than the race bike.... I thought about doing once after seeing it, but I think that after bleeding it I would not ever want to do that again....

    Just thinking off of the top of my head: the longer hose to the rear brake would never have the same pressure as the front hose during braking, thus you would have a lot of front braking power with little rear... or if the rear had o-rings that were less tight due to production tolerances then you would have lots of rear brake and a delay on the front....
    Anyone thinking of other variations??
    You're confused about pressure drops - they only occur when fluid is flowing, not when it's being used in a closed system. Bernoulli said so. I do agree, bleeding would be . . . frustrating.


    If you're one of them fellas with one hand, it might not be a bad idea to have one lever for two brakes but, it'd be nice if you could swap cylinder sizes to balance brake force between front and rear, find a happy medium that won't kill you on steep stuff.

  38. #38
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    SpecialWarr, that is potentially a problem, having a line that expands. Whether they do or not I have no idea. Im pretty sure the lines have radial steel braiding which should eliminate any stretching, but you are right, manufacturers may have pushed the limits too far. Maybe we can do some digging and find some test results or even do a test on that.

    What is the next step in MTB brakes? Does anyone have any ideas to really make a better system? Not simply improving quality of current designs, but a new concept. . . . .

    Personally I think we have great brakes and I know there is much more room for improvement in me than there is in my brakes.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by audiologies
    SpecialWarr, that is potentially a problem, having a line that expands. Whether they do or not I have no idea. Im pretty sure the lines have radial steel braiding which should eliminate any stretching, but you are right, manufacturers may have pushed the limits too far. Maybe we can do some digging and find some test results or even do a test on that.

    What is the next step in MTB brakes? Does anyone have any ideas to really make a better system? Not simply improving quality of current designs, but a new concept. . . . .

    Personally I think we have great brakes and I know there is much more room for improvement in me than there is in my brakes.
    The next GIANT leap forward in bike braking is.....are you read for this???.....

    Gravitational/magnetic braking, aka "GMB".

    It's my idea but anyone out there may use it with my expressed, written permission.

    'hawg is crazy!!!
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wxc300
    Hi im setting around, its cold right now and im thinking about one brake lever operation both brakes, what do you guys think of this? I think that it could be done with hydraulic brakes very easily.
    Hygia Brakes makes one for adult tricycles called the Multi. Probably not what you would want for off-roading unless it was light duty.
    this space left intentionally blank

  41. #41
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    Ok, I actually tried this...

    My wife is missing 3 fingers and has problems braking so I was looking for a solution. I purchased hope brakes levers and connected both brakes to it. Doesn't work. You are in a constant state of f ing with them to get it in a 70/30 situation. Then once you've got it you want control of each brake seperately. Its really only good for paved paths and whats the point of that.

    We have tried both Avid juicys and formula oro. In both cases I stack both levers on her right hand. Then adjust the rear brakes so that it fully engaged when it really close to the bar. The front brake is set for one finger braking. To ease the workout on her forearm she's running 200mm rotors in the front and 180 on the rear.

    She has full control of her braking and since she is so right arm dominate its pretty natural for her. Adjusted to it within the first ride and won't go back.

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