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  1. #1
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    ABS brakes for bikes?

    When is this coming? Anti Lock Brakes on cars have been around for some time. I would think the technology would trickle down to bikes by now or maybe sometime soon?

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    Have you ever seen ABS on motorcycles? I would think they would be first. I'm not going to say it won't happen, but weight is a huge issue with a mountain bike. You also need a system to run the ABS (electrical) and that adds more weight. It is definitely a cool idea but is it really necessary?
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    ABS on bikes? No thanks...I like to be able to lock them up if needed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr View Post
    Have you ever seen ABS on motorcycles? I would think they would be first.
    Yes, they do and have for a while now. Take a look at this
    CBR. There are others as well.

    Given time, ABS may find its way to bikes. Heck who would have thought we would have hydraulic disc brakes on our bikes 20 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr View Post
    Have you ever seen ABS on motorcycles? I would think they would be first. I'm not going to say it won't happen, but weight is a huge issue with a mountain bike. You also need a system to run the ABS (electrical) and that adds more weight. It is definitely a cool idea but is it really necessary?
    I don't think it's necessary at all. Was just thinking out loud I have an old Stumpjumper that I recently converted to V brakes (from cantilevers) and they stop just fine.

    I recently flew off the bars from my other bike, equipped with disc brakes...totally my fault of course. So just thinking if my brakes were ABS equipped It would've prevented the elbow rash, contusion to the shoulder and 12 stitches on my leg

    I would think that with today's technology would allow the "brain" for the abs to be quite compact and of course light weight too.

    Again, just having fun with this idea as a newbie to the scene.

  6. #6
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    The traction isn't there for it to work. On a road car it works because it grips during the grip pulse. On a mtb you'd just skid/roll/skid/roll/skid...
    It doesn't make sense for a mtb, modulating brakes requires a human touch on diverse terrain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carraig042 View Post
    Yes, they do and have for a while now. Take a look at this
    CBR. There are others as well.

    Given time, ABS may find its way to bikes. Heck who would have thought we would have hydraulic disc brakes on our bikes 20 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    The traction isn't there for it to work. On a road car it works because it grips during the grip pulse. On a mtb you'd just skid/roll/skid/roll/skid...
    It doesn't make sense for a mtb, modulating brakes requires a human touch on diverse terrain.
    Back on topic.

    That makes sense. I'm hoping though that ABS will find it's way to bikes.

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    Aside from all the complexity it would add, ABS doesn't work that well off-road. Even on cars, most proper 4wd's will have an "off-road" stability control option that pretty much turns abs off.

    Its good for 2 wheels on-road though - BMW has had ABS on its motorbikes for a very long time (1988 or something like that).

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    Do you ever feel the need to pump the brakes to keep them from locking up on slippery conditions? Nope. You eat $h!t or buy studded tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carraig042 View Post
    Yes, they do and have for a while now.
    I stand corrected. I was not aware of that but my statement still stands with regard to bicycles though.
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  12. #12
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    Yes they exist!

    They are usually called "skill" and/or "experience" and are just awesomely light in weight.

    Seriously, a anti-lock brake system for MTB surfaces and speeds would either be ungawdly expensive or just be a heavy, low cost of production marketing gimmick aimed at beginners that would probably back off brake power just enough so you would hit a tree. You wouldn't skid though. .

  13. #13
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    I have an ABS-equipped bike



    2006 Triumph Sprint ST in blue, just like this picture, except I found this photo on the web and this one is not ABS-equipped. If it was, you'd see slotted sensor rings near the hubs and a red "ABS" sticker on the fairing. In that year the bike was offered with or w/o ABS (a +$1,000 option). I bought it. Anyway, ABS-equipped motorcycles are common.

    But I wouldn't want ABS on my mountain bike.

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  14. #14
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    they make ABS for bikes!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    You can't hear your tires on the edge of breaking loose?

    BTW, you do realize a good driver can stop a car faster than ABS can, right? The point of ABS is it keeps a panicked driver from locking the brakes and loosing all control of their car.

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    I do not think abs is going to make it in the mtb world anytime soon.
    Weight, lack of speed etc comes to mind.
    But some arguments remind me about the constant discussion about abs on motorcycles.
    While I think you should be able to handle a non abs motorcycle my next motorcycle will have abs on it.
    Since it is a fact that only a professional rider on a non abs motorcycle on a perfect surface can beat an abs motorcycle but not by a huge margin.
    The second you have a less than perfect road surface, moisture and who knows what, you can not beat the stopping power of an abs motorcycle.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill View Post
    BTW, you do realize a good driver can stop a car faster than ABS can, right? The point of ABS is it keeps a panicked driver from locking the brakes and loosing all control of their car.
    I'd like to see the data on that one.
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  18. #18
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    ABS for bikes would be the DUMBEST thing ever. If you can't control the pressure you use to apply the brakes maybe you shouldn't be riding a bike. Maybe they should make a airbag riding suit so when you fall your pretty figure doesn't get a scratch on it.

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    As already said, ABS has been around on motorcycles for ages. However, all the off road bikes with the option usually have a switch to disable it for the loose stuff. I'd be surprised if the get an offroad version on motorcycles, much less bicycles, in the next few years.

  20. #20
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    ABS for mountain bikes is quite an interesting topic. I've copied and pasted some of an old post about braking performance from last year as it still seems relevant. The original discussion was about why I wasn't braking as hard as the Bikeradar.com tests suggested it was possible to using hydraulic disc brakes.

    Original complete posts in sequence:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=370
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=371
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=374
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=376


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You can get various automatic braking systems for bicycles. Have a look at this link about the Bud Brake "ABS" (Automatic Brake System modulator) for example which is supposed to help balance your braking between the front and rear wheels. That's not the same as having computer controlled ABS (Anti Lock Braking System) as seen on cars or motorbikes. It's more about adjusting the brake bias between front and rear brakes so that you can't brake too hard with the front brake and go over the bars.

    http://www.budbrake.com/products.html

    Electronic driver aids like ABS (Anti Lock Braking System), stability control and traction control in a road car are useful in some situations but I'm not totally sure if you'd want them trying to second guess your intentions on a mountain bike where grip levels offroad are constantly changing. Have a look at this video and what happens with the ABS brakes when they drive up the slope and then apply the brake to stop at the top of the hill. The car's ABS system thinks that the wheels are locked as the vehicle is sliding on the mud and releases the brakes!

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zoSEEWjw5_I&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zoSEEWjw5_I&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    As soon as you start looking at subjects like brake stopping distances, suspension setup etc the information about motorbikes always seems to be better and more detailed than for bicycles. The motorbike implementation of these electronic driver aid systems are more like what you may see in the (very distant? ) future on bicycles. If you look at motorbikes then ABS is really only on the road models. You can get it on some touring models with offroad capabilites (eg: BMW GS) but it's intended to be switched off when riding offroad.

    One major downside of ABS for a mountain bike would be that it adds weight and complexity to the bike. A Specialized Epic is bad enough with its proprietary suspension that needs servicing all the time. Can you imagine adding computer controlled brakes, traction control, wheelie control and all the required sensors on top of that which would have to survive wet weather, crashes etc. The bike would probably spend so much time being repaired/ serviced that it would be crazy. Other electronic systems such as the Cannondale "Simon" electronic damper suspension fork and Shimano Di2 electronic shifting are available or being developed so it's possible that ABS will appear at some point also.

    Cannondale "Simon" electronic damper suspension fork
    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...-concept-23332

    Shimano Dura Ace Di2 electronic shifting
    http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/...tml#/site/home

    All the sensors and electronics add weight to the bike too. Apparently the Honda C-ABS motorbike ABS system adds about 25lbs of additional weight. Even if the function was awesome that's still more than the weight of an entire Specialized Epic! It would take a lot of refinement to get the weight of the system down to an acceptable level.

    If you're interested in how ABS, traction control and wheelie control work on a motorbike these links are worth reading. One is a review of the 2010 BMW S 1000 RR where they explain the different systems and how they affect the riding experience. The other link is a really good discussion of ABS and its pros and cons on a motorbike. The posts in the thread by "machine" in particular are interesting.

    2010 BMW S 1000 RR review discussing ABS, traction control and wheelie control
    http://www.motorcycle.com/manufactur...iew-88974.html

    Discussion of the pros and cons of ABS on a motorbike
    http://www.bmwsuperbikes.com/forum/v...st=0&sk=t&sd=a


    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Another possibility is that the brakes are capable of performing at the level in the Bikeradar.com tests but I'm simply not braking hard enough. I found this interesting PDF file discussing motorbike stopping distances and how they vary between riders.

    http://www.psychology.nottingham.ac....nce/Vavryn.pdf

    It's mainly concerned with comparing braking with and without ABS but gives an insight into how even experienced riders don't achieve the braking performance that their bikes are supposed to be capable of.

    Braking Performance of Experienced and Novice Motorcycle Riders – Results of a Field Study by K Vavryn & M. Winkelbauer

    “Recent studies found that braking performance of motorcycle drivers stays far behind the capabilities of their vehicles which are better than – or at least equal to – those of passenger cars. It is supposed that ABS is the most effective solution to encounter this fact and its underlying psychological reasons.

    A field study has been carried out including almost 800 brake test rides in total. A device for measuring deceleration – without the need for any modification on the vehicles used – was developed. The braking performance of 134 experienced motorcycle riders has been compared between test rides with their own vehicles and brake tests with an ABS-equipped motorcycle. 47 trainees were tested with the motorcycle they used during training and compared with deceleration when braking with an ABS-equipped scooter. All the results were evaluated with respect to personal data of the participants e.g. age, driving experience and attitudes.
    ...
    Several studies proof that the average motorcycle driver is not capable of handling two different brakes at the same time, particularly in emergency situations. The poor average deceleration that was detected for the average motorcycle driver is supposed to be caused by the motorcycle driver’s fear to block one of the brakes (in particular the front wheel brake), skid and fall off.”


    Pictured below: Results of Study (Page 4) Braking Performance of Experienced and Novice Motorcycle Riders – Results of a Field Study by K Vavryn & M. Winkelbauer Even experienced riders weren't using the full capacity of their brakes. Possibly this is why my braking deceleration figures whilst descending are lower than the Bikeradar.com tests results also. It's definitely something to think about.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ABS brakes for bikes?-motorbikebrakingtest.jpg  


  21. #21
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    IIHS: motorcycles with ABS are 37% less likely to be involved in a fatal crash than models without ABS.
    HLDI: motorcycles with ABS had 22% fewer damage claims than those without and 30% lower injury claims.

    http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...uch-safer.html

    Since many motorcycles are available with optional ABS, it would be easier to do direct comparisons. Whether their testing methodology involves such controls is another matter.

    Bottom line, every study I've heard of on motorcycles and ABS/TCS comes out strongly in favor of the aids. Furthermore, the braking distance gap between truly expert racers and ABS has been shrinking to the point where the argument that racers can still do better is pretty much moot now, and strongly favors ABS in wet conditions.

    As for bicycles. I think the option will materialize eventually, it's just a matter of making it practical. Even offroad ABS is just another problem to be solved, it's just a question of whether the time and expense justifies the effort.

  22. #22
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    Has another year passed? Is it time for this dumb-a$$ question to come up again?

    ABS on bicycles, no thanks, just learn to modulate your brakes yourself.

    I don't even like ABS on cars, but then again I learnt to drive without it.
    It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.

  23. #23
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    I have ABS on all my bicycles.

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    AZ Biking Stickers?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr View Post
    I'd like to see the data on that one.
    You don't need any data, ask any racecar driver.

    Threshold braking stops you quicker. ABS is just the car's brakes going from locked to unlocked very quickly. In fact, I would wager that in many conditions locked up brakes would stop you quicker than ABS, but you loose control of steering when your brakes lock up.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    AZ Biking Stickers?
    That too.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings View Post
    Has another year passed? Is it time for this dumb-a$$ question to come up again?

    ABS on bicycles, no thanks, just learn to modulate your brakes yourself.

    I don't even like ABS on cars, but then again I learnt to drive without it.
    Heh heh.

    FWIW I'll take AWD on an MTB before I take ABS.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill View Post
    You don't need any data, ask any racecar driver.

    Threshold braking stops you quicker. ABS is just the car's brakes going from locked to unlocked very quickly. In fact, I would wager that in many conditions locked up brakes would stop you quicker than ABS, but you loose control of steering when your brakes lock up.
    I know what ABS is and what it does. Are you familiar with static versus kinetic friction? The coefficient of static friction is greater than that of kinetic friction on equal surfaces. Locked up wheels would be kinetic and not static due to the slippage and therefore for the same vehicles on the same surfaces starting from the same velocities will always take longer to stop than non-locked wheels (static friction).
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  29. #29
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    Have you seen what a NASCAR driver does in 40' to their pitbox? (with a pitroad speed of 45-55Mph?)
    or coming from 180 to 45 mph to enter?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill View Post
    You don't need any data, ask any racecar driver.

    Threshold braking stops you quicker. ABS is just the car's brakes going from locked to unlocked very quickly. In fact, I would wager that in many conditions locked up brakes would stop you quicker than ABS, but you loose control of steering when your brakes lock up.
    Most of the time ABS helps you stop faster...especially ice.

    But on gravel ABS is no help and even increases stopping distances...

    Not a chance I am gonna carry the extra weight though.

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    ABS will only lengthen the stopping distance on a MT bike... ALL cars actually have a built in way to disable it. If you ever run your car off the road you are suppose to pump your brake pedal 2-3 times... this disables the ABS and actually allows you to stop quicker. The proven process is that it allows your tires to dig into the dirt forming a bank on the front leading edge which will slow your car down quicker... This would be impossible with ABS as ABS kicks in when it senses wheel slip (aka a drastic reduction in wheel spin). Every little skid of your tires while braking would send your brakes into a pulsating frenzy which would happen quite often off road! The purpose of ABS is to help your tires regain traction after locking up.

    If you have issues locking up your brakes try going with smaller rotors or organic pads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill View Post
    You can't hear your tires on the edge of breaking loose?

    BTW, you do realize a good driver can stop a car faster than ABS can, right? The point of ABS is it keeps a panicked driver from locking the brakes and loosing all control of their car.
    Quote Originally Posted by wilonpill View Post
    You don't need any data, ask any racecar driver.

    Threshold braking stops you quicker. ABS is just the car's brakes going from locked to unlocked very quickly. In fact, I would wager that in many conditions locked up brakes would stop you quicker than ABS, but you loose control of steering when your brakes lock up.
    Dead wrong. And especially dead wrong on thinking that locked up brakes stop you quicker. You can't possibly hope to compete with a computer sensing the rotation and forces of all 4 wheels every few milliseconds AND the ability to control each of those wheels independently. Even if you had four brake pedals, you still couldn't compete. The only reason ABS isn't used in top level motorsports is because it is banned.

    I always get a kick of how different hobbyists resist technology. There will always be the people who resist change and insist that every addition of technology takes away from their hobby. How many people resisted disc brakes? Or carbon fiber? Or suspension? Or gears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Most of the time ABS helps you stop faster...especially ice.
    Were you thinking of this Fifth Gear video where Tiff Needell drives a Jaguar X-Type on ice with and without the driver aids turned on? In a modern car all the acronyms are linked together (ESP, EBD, brake assist, traction control, active suspension etc), making it much harder for even a skilled driver to be able to match the responses of the car's computer controlled systems in an emergency.

    <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/j-hHWSQhKuc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    .

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    Dead wrong. And especially dead wrong on thinking that locked up brakes stop you quicker. You can't possibly hope to compete with a computer sensing the rotation and forces of all 4 wheels every few milliseconds AND the ability to control each of those wheels independently.
    Locked up brakes, probably not. But threshold braking will stop you quicker. That is, braking right up to, but not beyond, the point at which the wheel locks up. That will stop you quicker than locking them up, and also quicker than relying on ABS to prevent lockup.

    It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but look at it this way: alternately locking up the wheels and then releasing pressure, even at 4ms intervals, is not as effective as constantly applying the brakes to such that the tires produce the most braking force that they can provide. When they're locked up, they're not providing maximum braking force. When ABS is releasing pressure on your behalf, the tires at not providing maximum braking force. In between, maybe. But that's not all the time.

    And yes, people can and do compete well with ABS. They generally win, too. Threshold braking just takes a lot of practice (more than the average driver will ever undertake). ABS exists to allow average drivers to retain directional control while standing on the brake pedal with all their might in a panic-stop situation. So it's a good thing, but the ABS that you find on mass-market cars won't out-perform a driver who puts in the practice.
    Last edited by NWS; 07-05-2011 at 11:45 PM.

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    ABS on an electric city bike? Sure, I'd get one. On a mountain bike? No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    Dead wrong. And especially dead wrong on thinking that locked up brakes stop you quicker. You can't possibly hope to compete with a computer sensing the rotation and forces of all 4 wheels every few milliseconds AND the ability to control each of those wheels independently. Even if you had four brake pedals, you still couldn't compete. The only reason ABS isn't used in top level motorsports is because it is banned.

    I always get a kick of how different hobbyists resist technology. There will always be the people who resist change and insist that every addition of technology takes away from their hobby. How many people resisted disc brakes? Or carbon fiber? Or suspension? Or gears?
    Actually, willonpill is partially right. In offroad conditions ABS will increase your stopping distance. Locking up your brakes is one of the fastest ways to stop...offroad. This is for a 4 wheeled vehicle mind you... I don't know how this would apply to a two wheeled vehicle such as a MTB. With a high center of gravity and a short wheel base it would be hard to prevent going OTB.

    Here is one article that I found with a quick search: http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html

    and from wikipedia:

    "In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces like gravel or slippery surfaces like snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

    A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 22 percent."
    Last edited by FireLikeIYA; 07-06-2011 at 08:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Locked up brakes, probably not. But threshold braking will stop you quicker. That is, braking right up to, but not beyond, the point at which the wheel locks up. That will stop you quicker than locking them up, and also quicker than relying on ABS to prevent lockup.

    It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but look at it this way: alternately locking up the wheels and then releasing pressure, even at 4ms intervals, is not as effective as constantly applying the brakes to such that the tires produce the most braking force that they can provide. When they're locked up, they're not providing maximum braking force. When ABS is releasing pressure on your behalf, the tires at not providing maximum braking force. In between, maybe. But that's not all the time.

    And yes, people can and do compete well with ABS. They generally win, too. Threshold braking just takes a lot of practice (more than the average driver will ever undertake). ABS exists to allow average drivers to retain directional control while standing on the brake pedal with all their might in a panic-stop situation. So it's a good thing, but the ABS that you find on mass-market cars won't out-perform a driver who puts in the practice.
    No person on the planet can threshold brake 4 independent wheels with 4 different traction abilities at any given point in time with ONE brake pedal. The stuff you are parroting was true 25 years ago. My calculator is smarter than the ABS systems from back then. It amazes me how people can sit in front of a computer, the CPU's of which have nearly a billion transistors, each 1000x smaller than a human hair and still underestimate what technology can do. Arguably the best driver of all time, Aryton Senna, used ABS in his F1 car. And that was 17 year old tech. Are you better than him?
    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Actually, willonpill is partially right. In offroad conditions ABS will increase your stopping distance. Locking up your brakes is one of the fastest ways to stop...offroad. This is for a 4 wheeled vehicle mind you... I don't know how this would apply to a two wheeled vehicle such as a MTB. With a high center of gravity and a short wheel base it would be hard to prevent going OTB.

    Here is one article that I found with a quick search: http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html
    I don't lock up my brakes every time I slow down. Do you? In fact, the only time I ever lock up a wheel while riding offroad is when I accidentally give it too much in a turn. Are there very strictly defined situations where you want to lock up and get the so called wedge effect? Sure. But I don't ride in those situations and a system doesn't need to be better 100% of the time to still be a significant improvement over what you have.

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    ABS is primarily for panic situations, and icy conditions.
    All other braking is better done without aids.

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I have ABS on all my bicycles.
    Mine too. Very complex system, the two main components are my fingers and brain.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    It amazes me how people can sit in front of a computer, the CPU's of which have nearly a billion transistors, each 1000x smaller than a human hair and still underestimate what technology can do.
    Funny how that works isn't it? The more I study mechanical engineering, the more I realize how much I don't know...
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    Quote Originally Posted by desrcr View Post
    ABS is primarily for panic situations, and icy conditions.
    All other braking is better done without aids.

    .
    Everything is better without aids.

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    ABS has been made available on bicycles several times in the past; people got hurt.

    every company that tried it either went bankrupt, or dropped the product concept in the first year (if not less)
    try adds in magazines circa 1986, 87, 88 maybe? should find a couple.
    most had some version of a little roller wheel attached to the brake pad that pushed against the rim, preventing the brake from every being fully applied.
    won't work without feedback sensors to modulate brake pressure according to speed.


    plus abs flat out doesn't work offroad so...
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  43. #43
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    There's ABS on cantilever equipped bikes. Fork chatter. It's technically pulsating the brakes. Not pleasant.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    No person on the planet can threshold brake 4 independent wheels with 4 different traction abilities at any given point in time with ONE brake pedal. The stuff you are parroting was true 25 years ago. My calculator is smarter than the ABS systems from back then. It amazes me how people can sit in front of a computer, the CPU's of which have nearly a billion transistors, each 1000x smaller than a human hair and still underestimate what technology can do. Arguably the best driver of all time, Aryton Senna, used ABS in his F1 car. And that was 17 year old tech. Are you better than him?
    Not many cars can modulate 4 tires at once, either. At least, not straight from the factory...

    http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-37...g-harness.aspx
    http://www.hutterperformance.com/Pro...BS-system.aspx

    Senna was a better driver than I will ever be, for sure, and the ABS on his F1 car back in the day was better than what's in my car, or yours. It's not that I underestimate what technology can do - it's that you overestimate what ABS in mass-market vehicles actually does. Get yourself to an HPDE class if you really want to know. It's fun, too.

  45. #45
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    Funny. No one except Byknuts has mentioned that it has been done before. I managed a LBS back when V-brakes came out and Shimano came out with an anti-lock one since, I assume, there were so many ham-fisted folks who can't modulate their brake levers. I think those were around a year or two, pretty much long enough to transition from canti's to V-brakes across the board. The other funny thing is they came on all the hybrid/ city bikes, not real mtb's.

    If you want anti-lock brakes a decent bike mechanic should be able to adjust the current ones on your bike to not stop you.
    Bikes=Sanity

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Not many cars can modulate 4 tires at once, either. At least, not straight from the factory...

    http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-37...g-harness.aspx
    http://www.hutterperformance.com/Pro...BS-system.aspx

    Senna was a better driver than I will ever be, for sure, and the ABS on his F1 car back in the day was better than what's in my car, or yours. It's not that I underestimate what technology can do - it's that you overestimate what ABS in mass-market vehicles actually does.
    Uhhh...Honda Civics have had 4 channel ABS since 96. Many cars stuck with 3 channel for a long time or still have it because there is a very small advantage to controlling each rear wheel independently vs at the same time. But again, just like a number of posters don't seem to get, the state of ABS even a couple years ago has absolutely no relevance on today. Technology is on an exponential climb. Look at your computer. Look at your cellphone. If someone pulled out a study from 99 about the capabilities of either and used that to talk about your device of today, you'd laugh. Or at least you should.
    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Get yourself to an HPDE class if you really want to know. It's fun, too.
    You know what they say about assumptions.

  47. #47
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    ABS would be pretty useful on front wheel during my all winter riding... because you don't want the front wheel to suddenly lock when trying to brake smooth in a icy/slosh descent because V-brake are most of the time on/off and not really modulated during winter riding...

    Thats my point.

    David
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSFA View Post
    Funny. No one except Byknuts has mentioned that it has been done before. I managed a LBS back when V-brakes came out and Shimano came out with an anti-lock one since, I assume, there were so many ham-fisted folks who can't modulate their brake levers. I think those were around a year or two, pretty much long enough to transition from canti's to V-brakes across the board. The other funny thing is they came on all the hybrid/ city bikes, not real mtb's.

    If you want anti-lock brakes a decent bike mechanic should be able to adjust the current ones on your bike to not stop you.
    And you too can have ABS brakes for the low low price of $2


    https://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?Item=100016261

    The reason they came on hybrids is that the bike manufacturers decided that the general public were afraid of the front brake or couldn't operate one properly and usually just didn't touch the thing. That modulator is basically just a spring in the barrel that allows the housing to compress in toward the noodle which changes the cable length and in turn basically disengages the brake arms. It make the bike stop terribly, for what it's worth.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  49. #49
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    Here's the cantilever version

    *** --- *** --- ***

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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    ABS would be pretty useful on front wheel during my all winter riding... because you don't want the front wheel to suddenly lock when trying to brake smooth in a icy/slosh descent because V-brake are most of the time on/off and not really modulated during winter riding...

    Thats my point.

    David
    A trainer can fix the whole icy wintery thing............

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum View Post
    And you too can have ABS brakes for the low low price of $2


    https://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?Item=100016261

    The reason they came on hybrids is that the bike manufacturers decided that the general public were afraid of the front brake or couldn't operate one properly and usually just didn't touch the thing. That modulator is basically just a spring in the barrel that allows the housing to compress in toward the noodle which changes the cable length and in turn basically disengages the brake arms. It make the bike stop terribly, for what it's worth YEP!.
    Wow! They're still kicking around
    Bikes=Sanity

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by desrcr View Post
    A trainer can fix the whole icy wintery thing............
    Lol... Don't think that I'm a newbie at this... I never fall off or crash my bike during the whole winter.

    It's just that it would be something less to worry about when going out in the mist and snow storm at 7 the morning in the traffic.


    Sent from my iPhone while bikin'
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  53. #53
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    There was another bike ABS thread and someone gave a link to this older one. I thought for the sake of posterity I would add my story I posted yesterday to this thread as well for future reference. It does not support bike abs but does support off road motorcycle abs. After my experiences I wish my KTM dirtbikes had switchable front abs available for certain conditions. If they could build a system at 5lbs or under I think it would be a go after people stopped btching about new technology they haven't tired yet.

    >>I'm not saying that ABS is a good idea for bicycles. I think you are so in touch with the traction of the tires because of low weight and no motor noise that it really isn't necessary. You can see, feel and hear when a tire is locking up and modulate. But for certain motorcycle situations it works great, I've used it to my advantage.

    Around 2000 I was dead set on riding my 500lb BMW 1100GS on offroad trails that were usually dedicated to enduro bikes only. I was told I couldn't do it but for some reason I wasn't deterred. I'm not going to go into all I did to the bike but in the end it worked as well as could be expected but was still a handful to ride at 5'10" 180lbs at the time. If I was a fit 250lb and 6'6'' it would have worked better. Later I just bought a KTM and put the 1100 out to pasture on the tarmac but it was a fun experiment.

    My point is that that bike had ABS. It would not work on the rear wheel because off road you are always on marginal traction surfaces so with the way the rear was programed the ABS eliminated the rear brake 90% of the time. So I capped off that circuit and installed a direct line so that the rear was conventional but kept ABS on the front.

    There was a trail in Arkansas that people told me I should not attempt because there was a long loose rocky steep downhill with a 90' turn at the bottom and with all that weight there was no way I could keep control. But I headed out anyhow. When I got to that hill the ABS kept the front tire in perfect control all the way down. I had steering and controlled speed so that it was a piece of cake. If I had not had ABS if would have been dicey with all that weight and I bet I would have had to ditch the bike to stop unless I had simply lucked out. On a lightweight dirtbike in those situations if the front wheel wants to lock up you have to let it go and ride it out braking where you can. But you are trying to stop and control a lot less mass, more suspension and a lower center of gravity. I've been in lots of situations on a KTM in the mud or really steep rocky downhills where the front would lock up if you grab too much brake (which is quite easy to do sometimes) so you have to just hope for the best and brake where you could. If it wasn't for the extra weight penalty I bet even on a lighter motorcycle there are situations where switchable ABS on the front wheel would be a good thing to have there too. But where ounces count, unless they could make it really light, I don't think it will be adapted. You never know though. 5 years ago you would have never thought a smaller displacement dirtbike would have electric start either.<<
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  54. #54
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    One thing that's a problem with an ABS system is where to get the power for the brake booster. There's no engine vacuum and I'm not really sure where one could get power from, besides small compressed gas cylinders like CO2 cartridges. Maybe the mechanical work for an ABS system could be provided solely by electrical means from a battery pack or hub dynamo.

    I've thought about this before, and I'm no engineer (yet), but it seems conceivable that you could make a small lightweight module that contains a hydraulic/pneumatic piston assembly with a solenoid valve. A microcontroller gathers data from a hall effect sensor on the rotor (rotors are already slotted, but I dunno how well HE sensors work on stainless steel) about wheel velocity, and controls the solenoid valve.

    One way would be to keep the CO2 end of the piston pressurized until ABS is needed, at which point, gas is allowed to escape the piston, which then increases the volume on the hydraulic side. This releases pressure on the brakes until gas is allowed back in the piston and the hydraulic pressure goes back up.

    Obviously, you'd run out of ABS after a while when your gas goes, and that design isn't really fail safe. I've done about 0 calculations on this kind of thing so who knows if it's even feasible. This sort of compact and lightweight electropneumatic technology exists in paintball markers, however, without the hydraulic aspect. In paintball markers it's pneumatics controlling a higher volume pneumatic valve to load and fire paintballs, but in a very similar fashion to what I've described above. They often have optical sensors and cycle at rates up to 20-35 Hz, like ABS systems.

    Would I want it? No. I can modulate my brakes just fine, and I enjoy knowing that skill is necessary to prevent going OTB.

    Also, those power modulators for V brakes are still quite common on low end hybrids, and they really annoy me. Not really because they make the brakes less capable, but because they make brakes really hard to set up properly when building bikes. With some brakes and levers, the wheel has to be really true to have it not rub and have acceptable lever feel.

    They are effective though, as you can pull the lever to the bar and not go over the bars, but still stop acceptably quickly.

  55. #55
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    My northrock xc6 2010 has ABS on the front brakes and it works just fine, rear can lock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joedirt24 View Post
    ABS for bikes would be the DUMBEST thing ever. If you can't control the pressure you use to apply the brakes maybe you shouldn't be riding a bike. Maybe they should make a airbag riding suit so when you fall your pretty figure doesn't get a scratch on it.
    Done: Hövding – Airbag for cyclists

  57. #57
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    ABS only works well in static friction scenarios. Since mtb bikes are rarely in static friction when braking, on dirt, the whole point is moot.

    If it was needed, this would only apply to front brakes. Too many bikers enjoy the ability to lock up the back tire, to skid it around turns, make tighter switchbacks possible, pump and skid to increase brake power, etc. So it would never be wanted for a back wheel.

    For road bikes, that makes more sense. I'm sure some of the Vuelta and Tour de France riders would love ABS for those rainy days when they are approaching corners.

    In any case, there is already ABS on many bikes. Otherwise known as Avid brakes OK - just kidding, I have Avids ans they work just fine, sometimes, maybe

  58. #58
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    My bike has had abs for as long as I was able to ride.

  59. #59
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    I have abs. Why shouldn't my bike?

  60. #60
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    As long as we are resurrecting old threads, can we also get automatic parallel parking on our bikes? I always mess that up.

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