****ing Torx bolts...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    ****ing Torx bolts...

    So, while removing my rotors today, i stripped 2 bolts on the front, and now i gotta remove them..


    Does anyone have experiance with this, i think the last time i took my bike to the shop they tightened my bolts cause they were on way to hard...Anyways, im gonna try to use a one of those tappers to remove, but i dont want to hurt the rotor or hub...

    Also, why torx bolts for rotors but no where else on bikes? Is there a reason for not using hex bolts (cause i feel like hex are easier to deal with)

    Thanks.
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  2. #2
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    If they're the button heads - take a dremel tool or hacksaw and put a straight slot through the head so you can use a flat head screwdriver. They probably weren't over tightened - but had loc tite put on them...

  3. #3
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    When paired with a quality metal, torx is less likely to round out as compared to an allen cap screw. There is more surface area on a torx for proper torque than an allen cap.

  4. #4
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    Had the same problem
    take a dremel and groove a line for a flat screwdriver.
    make sure the groove is big and deep enough for a good grip of the screwdriver, or you will end up stripping it more and more as the screwdriver will slip out of the groove

    I ended up having to use a hammer with an impact wrench.
    something like this:
    http://www.etoolnet.com/Lisle-29200-LIS29200
    you hold the tool with one hand and hit its back with a hammer, it will convert the impact energy to rotational force while pressing the flat bit to the bolt, it got my rotor out

  5. #5
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    Probably time to buy the right size tools / quality tools. I have snapped the heads off those little bolts before, but never ever stripped one.

  6. #6
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    only use quality torx bits. the equivalent size hex head for button head m5 screws is 3mm, this will round out faster than the torx. socket cap hex screws run in to clearance issues(mostly the fork). if the torx is truly rounded out, slot the head and heat it. should come right out.

  7. #7
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    I've never had an issue. I picked up a screwdriver style torq to install mine versus that crappy tool avid gives you.

    I also am running Juicy Ultimate's that came with ti hardware that may make a difference on the strength of the metal as well.

  8. #8
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    What they said. If you're stripping torx bolts you're using a crappy tool or crappy technique.

  9. #9
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    i was using my multi tool, and its not that bad, my big concern was that in the summer i took the rotors off the see if they were true, and used the same tool, with the same bolts...

    Now all the sudden i cant get them off, and the only thing that changed was that my bike went for a visit at the shop where they fixed my fork and "tuned" my bike...

    Im getting some nicer tools from my gf for xmas this year finally..atleast my new rotors will come with new bolts.



    Has anyone ever used one of those mastercraft bolt removers? i think im gonna try that before i dremel the ****er..
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    i was using my multi tool, and its not that bad, my big concern was that in the summer i took the rotors off the see if they were true, and used the same tool, with the same bolts...

    Now all the sudden i cant get them off, and the only thing that changed was that my bike went for a visit at the shop where they fixed my fork and "tuned" my bike...

    Im getting some nicer tools from my gf for xmas this year finally..atleast my new rotors will come with new bolts.



    Has anyone ever used one of those mastercraft bolt removers? i think im gonna try that before i dremel the ****er..
    whatever you choose, i would still heat the screw to break the loctite bond, remove while hot

  11. #11
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    ya, i will be doing that tommorow when i find my hacksaw...pain in my ass bolts...gonna get some ti bolts for now and hope they make a difference
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ya, i will be doing that tommorow when i find my hacksaw...pain in my ass bolts...gonna get some ti bolts for now and hope they make a difference
    What will make more difference is a good torx tool. The ones on multi tools are generally crap.

  13. #13
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    haha...ya live and learn eh...to think ive been maintaining my bike for 3 years with a crank bros multi 17...
    and an old chain for a chain whip...

    haha
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  14. #14
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ya, i will be doing that tommorow when i find my hacksaw...pain in my ass bolts...gonna get some ti bolts for now and hope they make a difference
    be very careful with a hacksaw, It is very hard not to damage the rotor,
    I wouldn't recommend it.

  15. #15
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    What they said!

    I found my torx tools wear out fairly quickly. I use good quality tools (mostly) but the end are prone to wear. Try using a brand new tool, go very firmly and carefully, and see if you can't pop it.

    Heh.... Ti bolts. Those will just get frozen even more unless you prep them properly. Ti loves to weld itself to alu.

    Loctite is good stuff. I always use it on stuff like this... stuff that would be really bad if it worked loose. Not only does it keep bolts from freezing, it also means you don't have to tighten them as much to keep the bolts in place. I use blue on everything bicycle related, with the possible exception of crank arm bolts where I use red.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc
    When paired with a quality metal, torx is less likely to round out as compared to an allen cap screw. There is more surface area on a torx for proper torque than an allen cap.

    That is BS torx for whatever reason are a pain in the ass.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    That is BS torx for whatever reason are a pain in the ass.
    No, that is a sound engineering explaination.

  18. #18
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    Yep, there is a good reason all those rotor bolts are Torx. Multi-tools are designed to keep you from having to walk home, not for maintenance. A worn out multi-tool might not even be able to fulfill its designed purpose. Also, as others have mentioned, crappy Torx drivers are a menace. Still, anyone who has much experience with 5mm button head allen bolts knows better than to try to secure a rotor with them.

    Heating the bolts with a hair dryer is a lot safer than using fire, too, by the way.

  19. #19
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    ahhh hair dryer...that sounds like a good plan..
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  20. #20
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    As much as I enjoy doing things with fire, sometimes it's just better to use the electric kind. Fewer parts to replace, and so on.

  21. #21
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    Is there enough meat left in a rounded T25 that a good T27 bit can hold? what else good is a T27 for anyway...?

    and I'd be very careful about heat vs. hub bearings... not saying it can't be done, just saying it's easy to screw-up and make even more work for yourself.

    speaking of heat... tack-weld something onto the offending bolt and get-er-done!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    That is BS torx for whatever reason are a pain in the ass.


    No BS.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

  23. #23
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    Another good trick is to actually try to tighten the torx screw just a tiny bit before loosening, not even a whole turn, but just give it a crack in the tightening direction and then loosen. Seems to break the bond of loctite or corrosion easier than just starting out with loosening the screw. I cant explain WHY it works, i just know it does... even after slightly stripping a screw head trying to loosen, i give it a crack clockwise, and then im able to get them out!

  24. #24
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    I had a couple of seized torx bolts on a wheel from winter riding. I ended up stripping them. I went to the local hardware store (Cdn Tire) and bought an easy out kit. Problem solved.
    I don't wear a helmet, I wear a turban protector!

  25. #25
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    ya, i tried to use an easy out thing, and it bit at first, but then started slipping, now i have a clean circle in the bolt head...tried hacksawing, didnt work, thinkin about grinding the heads off, then using vise grips to extract the bolts.
    2008 Kona Caldera

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ya, i tried to use an easy out thing, and it bit at first, but then started slipping, now i have a clean circle in the bolt head...tried hacksawing, didnt work, thinkin about grinding the heads off, then using vise grips to extract the bolts.
    My understanding of using an "ezi out" is that you have to carefully drill a hole in the center of the bolt you are trying to remove. You need to drill the largest pilot hole you can without completely drilling out the bolt and damaging the treads. Using a small pilot hole means that a small "ezi out" is used if you snap this you are in all kinds of bother, I have not fun. Use the largest "ezi out" you can.
    Duct tape iz like teh Force. It has a Lite side and a Dark side and it holdz the Universe together.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1lluaA
    ya, i tried to use an easy out thing, and it bit at first, but then started slipping, now i have a clean circle in the bolt head...tried hacksawing, didnt work, thinkin about grinding the heads off, then using vise grips to extract the bolts.
    Did you try to Dremel a slot for a flathead screwdriver? Make the slot for your biggest screwdriver to give you more leverage.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc

    Who are you a Torx bolt salesman...

    Geez most of the other bolt types work with crappy tools...

    So everyone needs to carry a high quality Torx set around cause they are better...

    Give me a break.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Who are you a Torx bolt salesman...

    Geez most of the other bolt types work with crappy tools...

    So everyone needs to carry a high quality Torx set around cause they are better...

    Give me a break.



    Yeah, a crappy 3mm allen wrench would work just fine in a button head. I don't know the exact numbers, but I doubt you would even be able to get a button head allen bolt up to torque spec reliably even if the bolt and the wrench were both new. I suppose you hold your rotors on with phillips head screws...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Geez most of the other bolt types work with crappy tools....
    No they don't. Hex heads in general can strip fairly easy with a crappy tool, but it all depends on the necessary torque versus the hex size. As stated already, the size hex head that you could actually fit on a rotor bolt would be very small and far easier to strip, especially if your tool is slightly worn and if you throw hardened threadlocker into the mix. The problem is even worse for aluminum bolts, such as are commonly found on chainrings now, and is the reason some companies are moving to Torx chainring bolts too.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by H. Z.


    Yeah, a crappy 3mm allen wrench would work just fine in a button head. I don't know the exact numbers, but I doubt you would even be able to get a button head allen bolt up to torque spec reliably even if the bolt and the wrench were both new. I suppose you hold your rotors on with phillips head screws...

    Yeah Yeah that what I do I use 3mm allen bolts made of aluminum to hold the rotors on...

    Yeah that's what I do.

    I'll try Robertson next though.

    Get a grip the hold 5mm works just fine thanks.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    No they don't. Hex heads in general can strip fairly easy with a crappy tool, but it all depends on the necessary torque versus the hex size.Tha is how you size bolts dufus As stated already, the size hex head that you could actually fit on a rotor bolt would be very small and far easier to strip, especially if your tool is slightly worn and if you throw hardened threadlocker into the mix. The problem is even worse for aluminum bolts, such as are commonly found on chainrings now, and is the reason some companies are moving to Torx chainring bolts too.
    Geez it has been years since I stripped a bolt of any type...

    So selling me Torx just to carry another tool don't fly.

    Haven't stipped an aluminum chain ring bolt yet either....I especially like the ones that have hex on both sides instead of the stupid, slot type thingy.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Who are you a Torx bolt salesman...

    Geez most of the other bolt types work with crappy tools...

    So everyone needs to carry a high quality Torx set around cause they are better...

    Give me a break.

    Not a salesman. Just someone with almost 18 years of automotive & bicycle repair experience.

    I have learned what works and what does not.

    This morning I replaced a front rotor on a customers bike that used the 3mm allen head. Every single one stripped out. Had to hammer an old Torx bit into them to get them loose.

    Using a quality tool in good condition, prevents rounding out of bolt heads. Doesn't matter if its Torx/Allen/Phillips.

    Also, if you have a fastener that is starting to strip, you stop trying to get it out. Damages the tool, which could make future use more difficult.

    Just because it doesn't fall into your ideals, doesn't mean its not better.

    But as I have stated before in other posts, I always forget that you know everything.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Tha is how you size bolts dufus
    thanks, I'm aware of that. My point that I guess I didn't explain was really that many hex fasteners on bikes are oversized given their torque requirements giving them a large safety margin for stripping out, hence the lack of too many problems. As pointed out, for a rotor bolt you can't fit a 5mm hex head on a button head, so you either would have something like a 3mm button head that would be very easily stripped, or a 5mm hex in a much taller cap head that could possibly interfere with brake calipers, mounts, or fork lowers.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc
    Not a salesman. Just someone with almost 18 years of automotive & bicycle repair experience.

    I have learned what works and what does not.Well at least for you

    This morning I replaced a front rotor on a customers bike that used the 3mm allen head. Every single one stripped out. Had to hammer an old Torx bit into them to get them loose.Sure your not a salesman

    Using a quality tool in good condition, prevents rounding out of bolt heads. Doesn't matter if its Torx/Allen/Phillips. Doh

    Also, if you have a fastener that is starting to strip, you stop trying to get it out. Damages the tool, which could make future use more difficult.

    Just because it doesn't fall into your ideals, doesn't mean its not better.Doesn't mean it is either,but then that doesn't sell torx

    But as I have stated before in other posts, I always forget that you know everything.
    Sound to me like you might need some better allen keys, or maybe some heat to soften the locite.

  36. #36
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    Clearance is very tight in many instances. I have a Fox F29 fork that would not allow any rotor bolts that did not have low profile heads. In practical terms, there are two choices, one being the 5mm button head like you see on racks and other accessories. Those take a 3mm allen wrench, and the tiny hex recess is very easy to strip out even at the low torque used on rack mountings and such. The other low profile option is the torx bolt that is the standard. If you have room for ordinary allen bolts and are too ham handed to learn to use a torx wrench on small fasteners, then the ordiary bolt will use a 4mm allen wrench. That would be a lot better than a button head allen, *if* you have the clearance.

    As far as the utility of torx in general, I'm a carpenter and a long time mechanic. Being a carpenter these days means I drive a lot of "deck" screws and such like with cordless drills. Torx head screws that use a T25 driver are superior. No comparison. Lots more expensive, which is why I still buy a lot of phillips driver bits. All driver bits wear out, of course, but the torx last longer and can usually be ground down to fresh profile once or twice.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by H. Z.
    Clearance is very tight in many instances. I have a Fox F29 fork that would not allow any rotor bolts that did not have low profile heads. In practical terms, there are two choices, one being the 5mm button head like you see on racks and other accessories. Those take a 3mm allen wrench, and the tiny hex recess is very easy to strip out even at the low torque used on rack mountings and such. The other low profile option is the torx bolt that is the standard. If you have room for ordinary allen bolts and are too ham handed to learn to use a torx wrench on small fasteners, then the ordiary bolt will use a 4mm allen wrench. That would be a lot better than a button head allen, *if* you have the clearance.

    As far as the utility of torx in general, I'm a carpenter and a long time mechanic. Being a carpenter these days means I drive a lot of "deck" screws and such like with cordless drills. Torx head screws that use a T25 driver are superior. No comparison. Lots more expensive, which is why I still buy a lot of phillips driver bits. All driver bits wear out, of course, but the torx last longer and can usually be ground down to fresh profile once or twice.

    Every try a robertson bit??

    Oh and the other way is of course centerlock.

    Requirement for rotor bolts is in shear not tension...so why the hell is everyone overtightening them.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Requirement for rotor bolts is in shear not tension...so why the hell is everyone overtightening them.
    Maybe you should put down the shovel before that hole gets too deep. Just sayin'.

  39. #39
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    Lol, centrelock is starting to look like a great idea to me...hahaha...

    Incase anyone cares anymore, i have decided to grind the heads off the bolts...everything else is failing, i snapped an easyout inside the pilot hole which was great...

    my new bolts look nicer, and i went out and bought a new nice torx tool for 4.99...hope it works well
    2008 Kona Caldera

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    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

  40. #40
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    FWIW left handed drillbits generally work better than ez-outs.. which suck when they break, as you noted.
    mike

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Geez it has been years since I stripped a bolt of any type...

    So selling me Torx just to carry another tool don't fly.

    Haven't stipped an aluminum chain ring bolt yet either....I especially like the ones that have hex on both sides instead of the stupid, slot type thingy.
    Yeah, no one strips bolts of any kind....never heard of it...... Bolts never stripped until Torx were invented, I tell ya......

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem
    Yeah, no one strips bolts of any kind....never heard of it...... Bolts never stripped until Torx were invented, I tell ya......

    Sounds like you need some training with hand tools.

    Along with most the other guys whining here.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Sounds like you need some training with hand tools.

    Along with most the other guys whining here.
    god forbid anyone ever try to improve something.

  44. #44
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    the slotting method works well, and heat is key for removing stubborn bolts with loc-tite on them.

    also, torx are indeed stronger than allen, and a torx bit kit is not very expensive at all.
    go to home depot. i got a nice set of ball end allen keys in a folding case with a handle driver for the allen keys for like 20 bucks.... you can go to sears and buy individual socket driven, or standard 1/4 driver bit style torx bits for just a few bucks a piece. i tend to buy the kit because its a better deal and you never know when you might need it again. I also have worked on cars, and bikes for a long time, and i am still adding tools to my collection, its just part of it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    god forbid anyone ever try to improve something.

    Remember boomn, he always knows everything and whats best for everyone.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    That is BS torx for whatever reason are a pain in the ass.
    arguing proven engineering facts, that takes a special kind of person.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    I use blue on everything bicycle related, with the possible exception of crank arm bolts where I use red.
    NOT a good idea. Red loctite should NEVER be used on any bicycle component, except a pedal helicoil. Crankarm bolts should have grease (as an anti-seize) used on the threads, not loctite. Red loctite there will not only make it near impossible to remove the crankarm, or for that matter, the BB.

    Helicoil taps for stripped pedal threads are the ONLY thing that red loctite should be used for on a bicycle. Blue is acceptable on certain parts, but every bolt that isn't loctite'd should be greased to prevent seizing.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by H. Z.
    As much as I enjoy doing things with fire, sometimes it's just better to use the electric kind. Fewer parts to replace, and so on.
    You can also use a soldering iron, just hold the tip to the bolt for a minute or so.

  49. #49
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    Just in case anyone was wondering, i got the bolts out, cleanly...

    However i did not do it myself, i had a machine shop do the work for me which worked out well..
    thanks for the help..
    2008 Kona Caldera

    "Today I saw my own son use a bicycle as a weapon....
    I seriously thought he was going to rape me"

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