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  1. #1
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    Stack and reach differences

    So I am planning out a HT build and I think it might be important to keep stack and reach in the same ballpark. Not sure though. My current ride is FS so that might make a difference. What say you?

    New frame Stack: 603 (-25 less than current)

    New frame Reach: 438 (+4 over current)

    The Reach is not a big concern since we are talking 4mm. The Stack being 25mm less, I am not sure if this is important.

  2. #2
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    25 mm less stack means you're gonna need 25mm of spacers under your stem (or angled up stem, or riser bars) to get the bars at the same height wrt the BB. or you can ride with the bars lower if that suits your riding better. etc...
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgia_Rider View Post
    So I am planning out a HT build and I think it might be important to keep stack and reach in the same ballpark. Not sure though. My current ride is FS so that might make a difference. What say you?

    New frame Stack: 603 (-25 less than current)

    New frame Reach: 438 (+4 over current)

    The Reach is not a big concern since we are talking 4mm. The Stack being 25mm less, I am not sure if this is important.
    Reach measurement is from BB to head tube. Seat tube angle affects effective reach.
    In other words 2 bikes with identical reach measurement but different seat angles will render different distances between saddle and handlebar. The steeper SA will yield a shorter distance saddle to bar.
    If SA is identical, ignore this reminder.
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  4. #4
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    OP, 25mm in stack height will make a bigger difference going from a FS to HT, especially as that's not taking fork only sage into account, IF, the BB height/drop is the same. So you need to also take into account the BB drop of the new frame you're considering, this will determine exactly how tall your saddle will be of the ground and relative to the HT. So say your old frame had 30mm BB drop and the new one has 60mm, even taking suspension sag into account, your BB static is going to sit lower, hence, so will your saddle, so you won't need the bar as high to get the same relative Bar to Saddle measurement/drop - hence the need for not as tall Stack.

    Ah, no, it's not, it is measured from a vertical line drawn up from the BB to intersect the TT and then measured from there to the centre of the HT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Reach measurement is from BB to head tube. Seat tube angle affects effective reach.
    In other words 2 bikes with identical reach measurement but different seat angles will render different distances between saddle and handlebar. The steeper SA will yield a shorter distance saddle to bar.
    If SA is identical, ignore this reminder.
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  5. #5
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    plug the two bike dimension in here- Stack and reach calculator

    I have a theory about comparing bikes by the ratio of stack to reach (or reach to stack, whichever makes sense to you). I find that some bikes are closer to "square" and others are more "retangle" than others.

    https://sidewallthorn.blogspot.com/2...-bike-fit.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    plug the two bike dimension in here- Stack and reach calculator

    I have a theory about comparing bikes by the ratio of stack to reach (or reach to stack, whichever makes sense to you). I find that some bikes are closer to "square" and others are more "retangle" than others.

    https://sidewallthorn.blogspot.com/2...-bike-fit.html
    mack_turtle I can't thank you enough for giving me the link to the Stack and Reach calculator. While off work with the flu... Imputing the numbers and the visual realization really helped me learn a lot. In fact, I no longer want the Motobecane and the Salsa Timberjack. I've been able to zero in on the Chameleon, in 29er spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Ah, no, it's not, it is measured from a vertical line drawn up from the BB to intersect the TT and then measured from there to the centre of the HT.
    Golly LyNx, I hope (assume) that MTBR's adherents know that's what I mean -- measured from a vertical line through the BB.

    As long as we're on the topic, LyNx, your description of reach isn't accurate. Reach isn't measure from the point where the vertical line through the BB intersects the TT. It's measure along a horizontal line well above the TT. Here, this explains the point I was attempting to make about the difference between reach and effective TT:
    http://www.transitionbikes.com/PDF/G...ETTvsReach.pdf
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgia_Rider View Post
    So I am planning out a HT build and I think it might be important to keep stack and reach in the same ballpark. Not sure though. My current ride is FS so that might make a difference. What say you?
    Nah. Those numbers don't refer to anything you actually interact with. If one frame was designed around a different stem/seat-angle then you will have a different reach. Stack should be discarded out of hand unless you're short and trying to fit a bike with a necessarily tall stack height.

    Go by frame size guidelines; they're where the designer can tell you who the frame is ACTUALLY intended for, rather than your having to guess based off some nonsense.
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  9. #9
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    hi everyone. don't want to flog a dead horse or ask a stupid question, but i am having trouble wrapping my head around the proper way to approach frame choice.

    i am coming from a sc bronson v2 size m (reach=425, stack=595, wheelbase=1165, hta=66°, sta=74°). i've always had the feeling that although i don't feel necessarily cramped, it tends to feel too poppy and somewhat "nervous" underneath me. i am 176 cm tall , 79 kgs and everything points to the fact that i should ride an M. i have a 50mm stem.

    so my first though was to look at a size L bronson (reach=445, stack=605, wheelbase=1189, hta=66°, sta=74°). i sat on one (didn't ride it though), and it felt nice and roomy but my lbs told me i was too spread out.

    then i looked at the yeti sb6 size M (reach=426, stack=600, wheelbase=1188, hta=65.5°, sta=73.3°). it felt good although similar to my bronson M. i sure the longer wheelbase would make a big difference though.

    so now, comparing bronson L and sb6 M, i'm wondering how different the ride would be between the bronson with a 35mm stem (445+35=480 total reach) and the yeti with a 50mm stem (426+50=476 total reach), their wheelbases being more or less the same. anyone ever try these?

    would i benefit choosing one over the other? if total reaches are the same, is there really a difference at all? how should tha and sta come into play in this comparison?

    the sb6 is considered a full enduro bike and is compared to the nomad rather than the bronson, even though they have the same travel front and rear in 2018. still don't understand why...

    all very confusing to me! any help or experiences shared would be appreciated!

    thank you

  10. #10
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    We are the same height, and there is no way I would ride a medium SC. I recently built up a HT with 470mm of reach, 30mm stem, and a steep seat tube. I feel that a longer reach with shorter stem has always been better for me.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    We are the same height, and there is no way I would ride a medium SC. I recently built up a HT with 470mm of reach, 30mm stem, and a steep seat tube. I feel that a longer reach with shorter stem has always been better for me.
    that's exactly what i've been thinking. although like i said i don't consider the overall reach necessarily too short, i do think i would benefit from the longer wheelbase. also, the TTL of the sb6 is 10mm longer making it a little more roomy.

    your 470mm reach includes your stem, right?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    your 470mm reach includes your stem, right?
    No he's got a frame with 470mm of Reach and running a 30mm stem on it.

    Moxie Enduro Hardtail | 27.5/27.5+/29er Compatible

    He's got the smaller of the two sizes.
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  13. #13
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    It seems extreme, but with my stumpy* legs, the steep STA and the 30mm stem it feels very normal.



    *As described by Ibis Cycles
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    No he's got a frame with 470mm of Reach and running a 30mm stem on it.

    Moxie Enduro Hardtail | 27.5/27.5+/29er Compatible

    He's got the smaller of the two sizes.
    thanks!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    It seems extreme, but with my stumpy* legs, the steep STA and the 30mm stem it feels very normal.



    *As described by Ibis Cycles
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    how should tha and sta come into play in this comparison?
    Head angle shouldn’t come into play with regard to reach since reach is measured to the top of the head tube. But seat tube angle makes a huge difference when trying to compare reach between bikes with different seat tube angles since reach is measured from a vertical line through the BB, not from the saddle.

    If you’re “too spread out” on the size L Bronson, you could indeed employ a shorter stem. But considering the size L Bronson’s seat tube angle is only 74° (slack in my book), I’d suggest you try sliding the saddle forward on the post before bringing the handlebar back farther. Doing so will yield a steeper effective seat angle (which will not change the bike’s actual reach measurement as defined by the bicycle industry but will indeed shorten the real world reach from saddle to bar.) In addition to shortening effective (true) reach, steepening the effective SA will contribute to easier climbing when things get steep by keeping your center of gravity between rear wheel & cranks. You’ll be less likely to accidentally loft the front wheel in such situations as well.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Head angle shouldn’t come into play with regard to reach since reach is measured to the top of the head tube. But seat tube angle makes a huge difference when trying to compare reach between bikes with different seat tube angles since reach is measured from a vertical line through the BB, not from the saddle.
    Yes and no.

    Yes because if you put the saddle exactly in the centre of the dropper a bike with a steeper actual measured STA will have a smaller distance to the bars, but...

    No because you are going to need to set your bike up so the saddle to BB horizontal distance works for your body and that means a similar saddle to BB distance regardless of STA. You'll slide your saddle forward or rearward on the rails...maybe even use a setback dropper. That then translates into a similar saddle to bars distance for the same geo chart reach.

    So personally I size by geo chart reach knowing I'll adjust my saddle into the same approximate position regardless of STA.
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  18. #18
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    thanks a lot everyone for the info. still on the fence on this one for now though. i think they could both work.

    my local LBS would take back my 2017 bronson M for a 2018 L and 1875 euros, for a 2018 yeti sb6 M and 2750 euros. both Gx eagle builds. kind of worried that the yeti is too much bike. i'm not a bike park guy and definitely want something that pedals well. might look into the ibis hd4 too.

    is the bronson the most pedalable of the 3, do you think?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    i don't feel necessarily cramped, it tends to feel too poppy and somewhat "nervous" underneath me.
    I'm tall, squarely an XL. My reach on MTBs is in the 470-500mm range, depending on design and application. Nonetheless, i can rock down to about a 440mm reach (combined with a ~70mm stem) and totally have a blast and not really suffer any major handling ill-effects. It's better in some ways, worse in others- a personal preference handling thing, not good/bad fit. At your height i probably would have gone with a large, but the santa cruz size chart suggests you should be on a medium. Either size is totally reasonable and could be preferable depending on your trails and riding style. Reach is a handling measurement, not fit.


    Poppy and nervous underneath you sounds more like the suspension needs sorting out than a bad bike fit. Or adapting to a new bike, or poor technique that isn't transferring nicely to a new bike.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the sales guy understands that either size will work for you and is just discouraging you on the large because it's not going to be a magic bullet.







    Regardless, i know how it feels to get a new bike and discover you don't gel with it right away. It's frustrating! Bronsons are awesome bikes and you're on the right size; if the literature made it sound like a good match you'll learn to work together soon. If you made a mistake... it's already been made, so might as well take the time to learn as much as you can.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Reach is a handling measurement, not fit.
    I'm 6'5" and spent too much time on a bike that's too small. When the reach is too small (your feet and hands are too close) it becomes impossible to get in the right position with your weight between the wheels. To get low you either have to a)get your hips over the rear tire in kind of a squat position, b) hips high and lean over the bars, c) awkwardly hunch your back and chicken wing your elbows. I also think stem length should not be used to make up for a bike that's too short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'm 6'5" and spent too much time on a bike that's too small. When the reach is too small (your feet and hands are too close) it becomes impossible to get in the right position with your weight between the wheels. To get low you either have to a)get your hips over the rear tire in kind of a squat position, b) hips high and lean over the bars, c) awkwardly hunch your back and chicken wing your elbows. I also think stem length should not be used to make up for a bike that's too short.
    what stem length do you use as a reference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    what stem length do you use as a reference?

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    50mm. I would not buy a bike that I needed a stem longer than that.

    Check out this recent pinkbike article on bike length. I thought it was spot on about describing what happens when a bike is too short, just right, and too long. https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-fas...r-opinion.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    50mm. I would not buy a bike that I needed a stem longer than that.

    Check out this recent pinkbike article on bike length. I thought it was spot on about describing what happens when a bike is too short, just right, and too long. https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-fas...r-opinion.html
    yes, i read it. it's basically what got me thinking! the author is my exact height 5'9" and use a reach between 450-475. the bronson L is 445. i can't imagine a longer reach when in the saddle. depends on the bike maybe?

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    yes, i read it. it's basically what got me thinking! the author is my exact height 5'9" and use a reach between 450-475. the bronson L is 445. i can't imagine a longer reach when in the saddle. depends on the bike maybe?
    Height is not a good way to compare bike fit. You can have a variety of body types that all add up to 5'9", but that would fit bikes quite differently.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Height is not a good way to compare bike fit. You can have a variety of body types that all add up to 5'9", but that would fit bikes quite differently.
    true. i have a 31" inseam, which means compared to him my torso is shorter, but my ape index is +4,5 cm, which i think means my arms are a little longer than average

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    Quote Originally Posted by stepping-razor View Post
    yes, i read it. it's basically what got me thinking! the author is my exact height 5'9" and use a reach between 450-475. the bronson L is 445. i can't imagine a longer reach when in the saddle. depends on the bike maybe?

    Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
    It depends on a few things: seat tube angle, seat position on the rails, stem length, bar width, bar sweep, etc.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    It depends on a few things: seat tube angle, seat position on the rails, stem length, bar width, bar sweep, etc.
    Definitely. Just by choosing a 30mm, 50mm or 70mm stem the same rider could ride a Medium, Large or XL frame in a lot of brands. That's only one of many variables. So making comparisons is hard unless you have tons of details about the person/bike you are comparing yourself to.

    I ride with Travis a bunch and he prefers shorter stems than I do [30mm vs. 50mm] despite him being shorter than me we would pick the same size frames by Reach. He also likes steeper seattube angles so on modern bikes I'd take a setback dropper and he would use an inline model. That makes my saddle to bar distance 2"+ longer than his [setabck dropper + extra dropper extension + stem] despite riding the same size frame.

    No right or wrong here. You just need to figure out what works for yourself with a little trial and error.
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  28. #28
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    The only way to know for sure is to get a good demo on a properly sorted bike.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    The only way to know for sure is to get a good demo on a properly sorted bike.
    true, but they are hard to come by around here
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Reach is a handling measurement, not fit.

    Regardless, i know how it feels to get a new bike and discover you don't gel with it right away. It's frustrating! Bronsons are awesome bikes and you're on the right size; if the literature made it sound like a good match you'll learn to work together soon. If you made a mistake... it's already been made, so might as well take the time to learn as much as you can.
    both very true!!!! great advice and insight! thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Definitely. Just by choosing a 30mm, 50mm or 70mm stem the same rider could ride a Medium, Large or XL frame in a lot of brands. That's only one of many variables. So making comparisons is hard unless you have tons of details about the person/bike you are comparing yourself to.

    I ride with Travis a bunch and he prefers shorter stems than I do [30mm vs. 50mm] despite him being shorter than me we would pick the same size frames by Reach. He also likes steeper seattube angles so on modern bikes I'd take a setback dropper and he would use an inline model. That makes my saddle to bar distance 2"+ longer than his [setabck dropper + extra dropper extension + stem] despite riding the same size frame.

    No right or wrong here. You just need to figure out what works for yourself with a little trial and error.
    thank you!
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    The only way to know for sure is to get a good demo on a properly sorted bike.
    trying to find one in the area. i'll figure it out somehow. thanks!
    Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

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