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  1. #1
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    Leuscher Teknik /// Carbon /// -all- the facts, period -frame forums-

    Carbon frames and wheels are fine, in fact awesome.

    but building them and you buying them, and did you get a good frame or not ? is a whole 'nuther story.

    such as paying high dollar for an Enve wheel that has voids and flaws, vs cheap chinese rim which actually is far better constructed (in this one test)
    enve --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8fsKeQwplg

    or paying top dollar for a Pinarrelo but the thing is full of flaws, dry carbon, voids.....
    ----------------------

    This guy does a rational analysis of everything carbon fiber.

    check this guys site
    Home



    check this guys videos

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9...4lLOHpb_zbIedQ

    he is just getting started and will be doing more analysis over time for different frame and wheels as he gets them


    ---------------

    anyway the real story is you better get a replacement warranty on any carbon bits you buy, because many super expensive high-end bikes and wheels have built-in flaws and are doomed to fail JRA.


    I love CF bikes and wheels but now realize that warranty better be solid because even the manufacturer has no true idea if what they are selling is up to spec unless they x-ray and ultrasound every production piece (guess what... that ain't happening). .

    I'd love to see his saw open some Giant frames. Some makers do a real good job some others...not so much.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  2. #2
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Carbon frames and wheels are fine, in fact awesome.

    but building them and you buying them, and did you get a good frame or not ? is a whole 'nuther story.

    such as paying high dollar for an Enve wheel that has voids and flaws, vs cheap chinese rim which actually is far better constructed (in this one test)
    enve --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8fsKeQwplg

    or paying top dollar for a Pinarrelo but the thing is full of flaws, dry carbon, voids.....
    ----------------------

    This guy does a rational analysis of everything carbon fiber.

    check this guys site
    Home



    check this guys videos

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9...4lLOHpb_zbIedQ

    he is just getting started and will be doing more analysis over time for different frame and wheels as he gets them


    ---------------

    anyway the real story is you better get a replacement warranty on any carbon bits you buy, because many super expensive high-end bikes and wheels have built-in flaws and are doomed to fail JRA.


    I love CF bikes and wheels but now realize that warranty better be solid because even the manufacturer has no true idea if what they are selling is up to spec unless they x-ray and ultrasound every production piece (guess what... that ain't happening). .

    I'd love to see his saw open some Giant frames. Some makers do a real good job some others...not so much.
    Definitely need to post this in the Wheels forum. Thanks.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  3. #3
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    Thanks for the heads up. Should I worry about my CF headset spacers? Only carpet fiber on my bike.
    =sParty
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Thanks for the heads up. Should I worry about my CF headset spacers? Only carpet fiber on my bike.
    =sParty
    you have to cut it open in at least six places and check for voids

    if no voids, then it was fine and you shouldn't need to cut it open to check for voids
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    if no voids, then it was fine and you shouldn't need to cut it open to check for voids
    Dang! Maybe I'll go get a chest x-ray at my doctor's and sneak the spacers in with me.
    =sParty
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    We don't quit riding because we get old.
    We get old because we quit riding.

  6. #6
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    If anything this shows that even major brands screw up and all the time.

  7. #7
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    i dont believe him. voids are normal and not a big issue. pros used them and trash them on a daily basis and never had problem. id trust the professional frame engineers rather than this backyard mechanic. you can take his advice with a grain of salt.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by malayneum View Post
    i dont believe him. voids are normal and not a big issue. pros used them and trash them on a daily basis and never had problem. id trust the professional frame engineers rather than this backyard mechanic. you can take his advice with a grain of salt.
    Well, the Chinese manufacturers in Xiamen have a lot more experience making carbon fiber wheels than small companies, at least half of which simply contract from the same Chinese manufacturers to get their rims.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by malayneum View Post
    i dont believe him. voids are normal and not a big issue. pros used them and trash them on a daily basis and never had problem. id trust the professional frame engineers rather than this backyard mechanic. you can take his advice with a grain of salt.
    I'd agree voids are normal... well to be expected with lower resin % prepreg. This video is to scare ppl into using their service lol. Back to voids, maybe that's why black bondo is so damn popular with everybody, including Trek/Speccy/Sram/etc. The crux that the video ignores is that so what? They just add more layers of carbon to compensate.

    Look in vid below, dumb GCN guy calls it "a special type of resin," but that is a lie. It's black bondo/putty used to fill in voids. HAHA! The worker is literally filling them voids up with bondo, voila you can't see that shit anymore by eye now.

    https://youtu.be/HGTUCeHLxfI?t=259

  10. #10
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    Steel is real!

    I'm just too paranoid to ride carbon fiber (and cheap). Yes, I know, steel can break as well. But whenever I crashed on a carbon bike, I'd be all worried I'd damaged the frame somewhere. Too many "is this a crack" threads on this site. And I'm not a serious racer. But maybe someday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  11. #11
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    There's voids in metal, including steel, too.

  12. #12
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    well this guy is experienced in composites in aerospace and he is able to explain everything about the process and examining broken carbon. voids are part of it. even trek OCLV which is damn nice says 'low void' in the name, not 'no void'. so yes voids happen.

    he shows JRA breaks can just happen and why that can occur due to inherit flaws

    it is just also a fact that some really high zoot frames and not built so well, and it's nice this guy shows it on video and explains a lot about it. those frames may still last your entire lifetime of wanting to ride it, but if it breaks someday...could have been doomed

    as long as you have a warranty on something you should be fine
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolwasabi View Post
    There's voids in metal, including steel, too.
    Yeah, that's why they're called tubes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    well this guy is experienced in composites in aerospace and he is able to explain everything about the process and examining broken carbon. voids are part of it. even trek OCLV which is damn nice says 'low void' in the name, not 'no void'. so yes voids happen.

    he shows JRA breaks can just happen and why that can occur due to inherit flaws

    it is just also a fact that some really high zoot frames and not built so well, and it's nice this guy shows it on video and explains a lot about it. those frames may still last your entire lifetime of wanting to ride it, but if it breaks someday...could have been doomed

    as long as you have a warranty on something you should be fine
    He has a video that implies that warranties tend to be useless, considering that the suppliers (AKA bike brands) have a history of saying such "defects" are normal and that they have to break for them to qualify for warranty. Suppliers also have a crash replacement warranty that covers damage to the frame where you essentially are paying for the frame's cost maybe minus dealer markup (dealer gets the assembly fee though), which might be a catch all for them to deny warranty due to things that aren't clearly defects and had crashes involved (everyone crashes).

    JRAs tend to be from "invisible damage", whether it's a seriously major defect or a fracture from a hard impact, that gets worse through repeated vibrations. That fracture from hard impact could have been that gnarly crash a while back that didn't sound/seem good for the bike, but surprisingly stayed together well enough to ride out. You might have ridden it easy after that, then ramped it up back to "full speed" and confident that the bike's okay, only for it to fail when you least expect it (e.g. leisurely pace on a pedally section), discounting that the earlier hard impact had anything to do with it, since it seemed fine for a good length of time afterwards.

    Don't trust just anyone's warranty. Go with a brand that confidently backs it up and has a track record for doing so. For example, I hear Giant is pretty generous with their warranty. They might not seem like a great value atm, but if you consider the warranty service... better do your research on other brands.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Yeah, that's why they're called tubes!
    Name:  Metallurgical-processes-and-steel-product-defects.jpg
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    Metallurgical Processes and Defects in Steel Products | ispatguru.com

    Add in defects from heat treating, logistics, and finishing...

    This is why certain sources of raw material are preferred over others. On the Ti side, Sandvik has quite a long waiting list for tubes. They are cold worked and stress relieved, rather than annealed like Asian sources. This makes a difference in toughness. A builder will know when he's handling it, mitering, bending it, etc. Russian sources also aren't ideal.

    There's a ton of science that is in the refinery process of aluminum. They have to filter out all the inclusions/impurities, ensure it's poured at the ideal temp and in a manner that minimizes gas porosity, ensure it cools evenly (if certain spots cool quicker, they become harder and more brittle AKA hot spots), and more...



    In the end, the only conclusion I can come up with is to avoid greedy capitalist types, and embrace the types that are proud of their top tier quality who are fine with their size. Carbon frame manufacturing is not something that benefits from economies of scale, so I recommend going with the ones with more expertise.

    Also, don't judge Enve based on some voids. They are wizards regarding the long list of engineering targets they're trying to hit all at once. It's not just simple stiffness, strength, and cost, they find a nice balance that aims to hit a sweet spot that provides a better ride feel and experience. The criticism here is logical fallacy--people expect "perfection" when they're paying top dollar, but what some consider to be perfect is not really realistic. What you're paying for is engineering; not unlike what you pay for when you buy Koenigsegg. There's human handiwork involved, so you have to expect these kind of issues, but the engineering takes that into account through safety margins (AKA overbuilding).

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