Kinematics information lacking heavy- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Kinematics information lacking heavy

    I'm in the market for a new bike and the lack of kinematic info on frames is hugely lacking. Sure geometry info is always front and center, but things like anti-squat, anti-rise, leverage ratio, progressivity, kickback, etc are just as important...

    Is this information typically left out because it would expose all the super fancy suspension designs to not be as fancy as we think?

    YouTube videos from andrext about suspension design are hugley helpful in decision making. Why aren't the bike companies publishing this information front and center?

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  2. #2
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    Linkage design blog provides that for just about every frame Iíve ever thought about looking up...


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  3. #3
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    yeah well that kinematics and numbers on paper horsecrap 'to expose the facts' only goes so far....right in to the trash

    andrextr specifically panned Brian Berthold's new patent, [my new bike with it's new bike suspension design] and kinematics and had a real good time ragging about 'all it's failures'

    turns out the bike rocks, and climbs better than anything...he was 100% wrong in his paper analysis....and the bike suspension is awesome and possibly the best ever invented


    so, expecting an egghead with a website to tell you about the 'information typically left out because it would expose all the super fancy suspension designs to not be as fancy' is ...bollocks. all you can get out of it is matching same/same suspension, but if something new comes along those eggheads might not be able to wrap their heads around it at all, and mislead and deceive you just as much.

    the sites, and work done is useful, but dubious as well.

    I had to fight my instinct and hold back from putting money down on this new bike because these kinematic experts were on their high horse shouting from the rafters about how much the bike will suck...I pushed ahead and got the thing anyway. SO glad I did, the bike ride is phenomenal.

    you need to ride the bike to know the real story of any suspension unless you can find an exact same/same match on some 'kinematics blog'
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    yeah well that kinematics and numbers on paper horsecrap 'to expose the facts' only goes so far....right in to the trash

    andrextr specifically panned Brian Berthold's new patent, [my new bike with it's new bike suspension design] and kinematics and had a real good time ragging about 'all it's failures'

    turns out the bike rocks, and climbs better than anything...he was 100% wrong in his paper analysis....and the bike suspension is awesome and possibly the best ever invented


    so, expecting an egghead with a website to tell you about the 'information typically left out because it would expose all the super fancy suspension designs to not be as fancy' is ...bollocks. all you can get out of it is matching same/same suspension, but if something new comes along those eggheads might not be able to wrap their heads around it at all, and mislead and deceive you just as much.

    the sites, and work done is useful, but dubious as well.

    I had to fight my instinct and hold back from putting money down on this new bike because these kinematic experts were on their high horse shouting from the rafters about how much the bike will suck...I pushed ahead and got the thing anyway. SO glad I did, the bike ride is phenomenal.

    you need to ride the bike to know the real story of any suspension unless you can find an exact same/same match on some 'kinematics blog'
    Thats a fair point, but I think the numbers still have their place, and tells a good tale of how the bike reacts to certain rear shocks, air volumes etc..

    What bike are you referring to? A tantrum?

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Is this information typically left out because it would expose all the super fancy suspension designs to not be as fancy as we think?
    My guess is that providing that info would just muddy the waters for about 95% of the people looking for a bike and would also be influenced by how a rider tunes his suspension - so no way to really compare apples-to-apples.

    Anyone who doesn't do a decent test ride before buying a bike is really at a disadvantage and a test ride will tell most riders a lot more about a bike's handling than the numbers will.

    Shoot, even using numbers to compare the effect of a different head tube angle isn't straight forward once you consider differences in wheel base, TT length, etc.

  6. #6
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    Kinematics is good. I wouldn't have a FS bikes that didn't have kinematics.

    Same geo and same kinematics (and wheels and sus) bikes will handle and ride the same. Granted, for the vast majority, it's way over their head. Bike marketing is largely smoke, mirrors, and colorways. Why muddy the water with facts and quantitative technical analysis.
    Do the math.

  7. #7
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Yes, the linkage site has lots of kinematics, and these days, they are pretty accurate in predicting/describing the behavior of the bike. It's no longer the black-magic hype-driving thing that it once was...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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