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  1. #1
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    Why so much jumping?

    I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.

    XC doesn't involve jumping off artificial ramps nor do they separate the wheels from the ground much if at all. Am I right here?

    Does the discipline that requires trail bikes involve jumping off ramps or is that enduro/all mountain. In other words, are trail bikes built to withstand jumps?

    Although I clearly understand that trails, just as ramps, are human made, I don't like jumping on my bike. Well, I have a family that depends on me and can't afford the risk, especially when over 90% of the crash videos involve riders jumping off artificial ramps.

    This is my first post so I hope I'm posting in the right place. And thank you in advance for your insight.

  2. #2
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    Jumping is fun to do and fun to watch. You do not have to jump though. Most xc trails that are green or blue rated donít include mandatory air. You donít see as many videos of people tooling around on green and blue trails because frankly, itís boring to watch.

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    I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-...xc-course.html

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    I'm not a big jumper. There are some newer jump lines that have been built around me. I ride and enjoy them but I ride more bmx style, just letting the bike follow the terrain while I float over it. You can ride at surprising speeds while doing this, without leaving the ground. Of course, this doesn't work for gap jumps or drops. I will ride smaller drops and I do jump a little, but I can't afford a big crash, either. Plus that would hurt!
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    So.... what's the question?
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    Then don't hit jumps. I mean there are many ways to enjoy mountain biking from racing (Xc, enduro, downhill, 4x, etc) to freeriding to bikepacking to just riding along and being out in nature. Just find what you enjoy and enjoy it. If you come to jumps or drops and you don't want to hit them, take the b-line or walk them.

    Lots of people enjoy them. That is why they exist.
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    I think you're getting a skewed idea of what mountain biking is based on internet videos. Most media features representations of activities that are far outside what is typical and MTB videos are no different. XC videos are relatively boring, only riders appreciate them at all. Everyone loves watching "EXTREME BIKING" so online videos with lots of that are popular. I doubt that more than 15% of mountain bikers can jump much of anything, but I'll bet that most of the audience watching Rampage even own a mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-...xc-course.html
    That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.
    Those would be normal trails in several of the systems I live in, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person here would ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.
    I think others have already touched on this, but yeah, it seems like there's so much jumping because that's what people video record. No scientific facts here, but I'd venture to guess for every one rider you see in a video jumping big gaps, there are a few thousand other riders whose tires never leave the ground.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Those would be normal trails in several of the systems I live in, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person here would ride.
    Yeah, but how many of those people are riding a short travel XC bike? Probably on Trail bikes if I had to guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Yeah, but how many of those people are riding a short travel XC bike? Probably on Trail bikes if I had to guess.
    The OP asked about "trail bikes"... For at least three brands I'm aware of, Orbea, Intense, Santa Cruz, their XC bike frame is the same as their trail version. I'd happily take my Oiz TR off of most stuff that isn't a drop to relatively flat or one of the 10'+ high road gap stepdowns. Is it going to be as fast through some of it as my Rallon, absolutely not. However it does jump better off of certain types of jumps than the Rallon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-...xc-course.html
    Okay you're right, "XC" is a designation of a race format. However, for decades people have also used the term "cross country" interchangeably with "mountain biking," i.e., heading out to your local after work loop without any organized competition taking place.

    In the video you linked was there any mandatory air? I skimmed through it and didn't see any (it did appear challenging enough, like a blue trail). I didn't watch the whole thing at real-time speed though because it was frankly, a little boring to watch like most trail riding.

    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    Most media features representations of activities that are far outside what is typical
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    Then don't hit jumps. I mean there are many ways to enjoy mountain biking from racing (Xc, enduro, downhill, 4x, etc) to freeriding to bikepacking to just riding along and being out in nature. Just find what you enjoy and enjoy it. If you come to jumps or drops and you don't want to hit them, take the b-line or walk them.

    Lots of people enjoy them. That is why they exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Okay you're right, "XC" is a designation of a race format. However, for decades people have also used the term "cross country" interchangeably with "mountain biking," i.e., heading out to your local after work loop without any organized competition taking place.

    In the video you linked was there any mandatory air? I skimmed through it and didn't see any (it did appear challenging enough, like a blue trail). I didn't watch the whole thing at real-time speed though because it was frankly, a little boring to watch like most trail riding.
    Yes, there is mandatory air on that course. Where I'm at almost all of the trails, even greens, have optional kickers and rock rolls. Having it be available in so many places, and in the fast line for quite a few, it leads to a lot of people jumping.

    I ride with quite a few people, shop rides, friends, club rides, NICA, and almost everyone I ride with gets their wheels off the ground at least once a ride. Sure there are a few who don't but they are far in the minority.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Those would be normal trails in several of the systems I live in, so no, it's not 100% more difficult than what the average person here would ride.
    You're not wrong there, but my emphasis is relevant. You can't apply your specific, regional experience to everyone, everywhere.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    You're not wrong there, but my emphasis is relevant.
    Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US. The point being your 100x more and 99.9% comments are just a tad hyperbolic.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yes, there is mandatory air on that course. Where I'm at almost all of the trails, even greens, have optional kickers and rock rolls. Having it be available in so many places, and in the fast line for quite a few, it leads to a lot of people jumping.

    I ride with quite a few people, shop rides, friends, club rides, NICA, and almost everyone I ride with gets their wheels off the ground at least once a ride. Sure there are a few who don't but they are far in the minority.

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    Okay, I must've fast-forwarded over the mandatory air part. Our greens and blues have optional challenge lines but the key word is "optional." Anyone who doesn't want to jump can take the ride-around. I seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.

    "Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US." Where is that?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US.
    Cool.

    A tad hyperbolic, sure. I don't have actual statics, I was making a generalization to make a reasonable point.

    it's still true that your specific, regional experience is not representative of everyone else's. Very few people travel to ride when you consider the huge number of people who ride and the broad level of dedication they have for the activity. Most people, myself included, rarely leave their own county to ride. I believe that a vaguely defined "majority" ride trails that are "less challenging" than the course in that video. Leave room for that and don't turn it into a pissing contest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Okay, I must've fast-forwarded over the mandatory air part. Our greens and blues have optional challenge lines but the key word is "optional." Anyone who doesn't want to jump can take the ride-around. I seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.
    Under certain organizations' rating guidelines that is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    "Where I live is also one of the most traveled to destinations in the US." Where is that?
    Bentonville

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    A tad hyperbolic, sure. But it's still true that your specific, regional experience is not representative of everyone else's. Very few people travel to ride when you consider the huge number of people who ride and the broad level of dedication they have for the activity. Most people, myself included, rarely leave their own county to ride. I believe that a vaguely "define majority" ride trails that are "less challenging" than the course in that video. Leave room for that and don't turn it into a pissing contest.
    I never said it was a complete representation. It did help to highlight the hyperbole which was the only reason it was brought up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.

    XC doesn't involve jumping off artificial ramps nor do they separate the wheels from the ground much if at all. Am I right here?

    Does the discipline that requires trail bikes involve jumping off ramps or is that enduro/all mountain. In other words, are trail bikes built to withstand jumps?

    Although I clearly understand that trails, just as ramps, are human made, I don't like jumping on my bike. Well, I have a family that depends on me and can't afford the risk, especially when over 90% of the crash videos involve riders jumping off artificial ramps.

    This is my first post so I hope I'm posting in the right place. And thank you in advance for your insight.
    I don't understand your question/comment.

    I also don't understand why you quoted 'artificial' jump. What is your understanding of artificial jump?

    I'd consider a natural jump to be a bump in the trail, not created with intent.
    I'd consider a man-made jump to be machine made or hand cut and shaped.
    I'd consider an artificial jump a metal ramp like is seen in X-Games.


    Are you simply trying to understand why we all have a death wish and 'jump' our bikes?
    Do you believe that once one gets on a bike they must ride jump trails with no way to avoid these trails?
    Are you trying to figure out why you got into riding since the conditions aren't what you expected of them?

    Just trying to understand the context of your thread. It means something to you because you registered a few months ago and this is the first thing you ask about in 4 months.

  23. #23
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    I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.

    There are so many jumps because people like jumps. Some people will look to jump off of anything they find. This can be detrimental to the trail if it's not designed into it, because you'll get people creating a bunch of new lines. Maybe not a big deal if it's just to the side of the existing line, but a bunch of spiderwebbing from people riding in totally new side trails to access jumps is a problem.

    The trails themselves are manmade, so by extension, so are jumps. Even if it's a line off of a rock or a bump in the ground. It wasn't a jump until someone started riding it. But yeah, sometimes jumps are built with more work and intent. Big dirt jumps or even wooden features. Where I live, some jumps are made from big rocks intentionally placed.

    I'm almost 40 with a health history, terrible insurance, and I'm not comfortable with big air, but even I find a little bit of air to be lots of fun. I tend to prefer drops, but I also like rollers and tabletops. I draw the line at gap jumps, though.

    Mountain biking period means that there's going to be opportunity for your wheels to leave the ground. Even in xc riding. You don't have to take that opportunity if you don't want to. Sure, xc bikes aren't meant to really excel on jump lines or do big hucks, but they can handle some of that, especially under a skilled rider who can ride with finesse and isn't hulk smashing everything. Mountain biking has always been about riding the terrain you find on the trail. Early mtbs were really limited in what they could actually ride, but over the years, bike manufacturers have figured out how to make bikes more versatile and that has really opened up the kinds of terrain that bikes can handle. And that has opened up mountain biking to a wide variety of "styles" of riding depending on what you like and what you have available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.
    The "jump over Mount Fiji" feature is a step down but the other big air is a drop. The rock garden will be interesting because there were multiple spectacular crashes hucking and rolling both.



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  25. #25
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    Jumping is fun. I don't think many people will argue that. Once you get to a certain level, and you're familiar enough with a trail, you can take just about any bike to the local jump line and let it rip. Although things started getting a little dicey a couple weeks back when I took the gravel bike out there and almost completely cleared the backside of a table. Super low rolling resistance tires, aero + tailwind = massive speed.

    That said, there's a thread on here right now where someone is asking about how reach will impact the ability to throw the bike around on jumps, and it's readily apparent the guy doesn't actually own a bike at all right now. Just my opinion, but perhaps getting some basic skills such as "turning left", or "navigate a technical section" might be worth pursuing first, unless one only desires to ride the jump lines.
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    My riding (and life in general) is not GoPro worthy...except perhaps for a few of the crashes.
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps.
    In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing *IS* intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".

    However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.

    So, until then, relax and ride around it. If you never develop the taste for it, great, avoid them / ride around. Easy enough!
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  29. #29
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    Mountain biking involves any sort of riding you want it to be.


    I like to jump a lot. Some people don't.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I never thought that mountain biking involved so much jumping off "artificial" ramps. ...
    I have biked thousands of miles over the past 7 years and have never jumped off of an artificial ramp. I have jumped a few things where the trail surface allowed for it, but never very high. I don't jump or even try to. I ride XC HT, XC FS and now a 160/145 trail bike. The long travel bike is most capable for landings, but I don't want to risk the crashes that come from big jumps. 6-24" is plenty of height. That said there are jumps on the XC World Cup coruses. Some quite large and man made drops to flat where air is seen. If I raced those kind of courses I would have to learn to get comfortable with them. But I don't so I am not going to worry much.
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  32. #32
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    You see a lot of pictures of people jumping because people jumping makes for a good picture.

    Also, jumping is fun. At least it looks fun.

  33. #33
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    a ramp is simply a ramp. what the hell is an 'artificial' ramp?


  34. #34
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    I grew up in BMX, so jumping was one of the reasons I even got on a bike

    but now that I am older, I consider it more of a trail skill...like manuals or bunny hops...and use it that way. I wish I had the guts to do what I used to do, but recovery time and life sensibilities temper that now.

    I find I am more aggressive with jumps at the skatepark than in the woods for whatever reason...I think in the woods there are so many other things I feel like I am trying to master and control, that jumping is not as important. I also don't live in an area where we have tons of "sending it" type jumps...we have more flow, tech, and small jumps/embankments etc.

    I ride a Surly Krampus rigid, and never really worry about breaking it...weigh between 195-215 depending on the proximity to Christmas time food.

    I never broke frames when riding BMX...popped tires and messed up pedals/cranks/stems/handlebars, but friends told me I had a "pretty soft landing style" back in the day.

    MTB becomes whatever you want it to be. I honestly could not tell you whether I ride all mountain; XC...whatever. I DO know that I don't ride down hill and enduro, and am definitely getting into bike packing.
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    I think I've had more scary experiences and close calls on natures strategically placed wet roots and rocks than I have had jumping. At least with jumping I am prepared to possibly bail. Being scared to do it can make jumping more dangerous if you don't commit, so don't make yourself jump off something if you are uncomfortable. Sometimes it helps to follow someone you trust over a jump if you decide to give it a try.

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    Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
    At least to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    That is the OLYMPICS COURSE that is intended for a tiny sliver of the top elite athletes to ride for glory. It is 100x more difficult than what the average person rides on the weekends. Again, it's an extreme example of something relatively mundane because no one would watch average people with beer bellies and heavy bikes flop around on the local singletrack. There's nothing wrong with the presentation so long as we all know that 99.9% don't have terrain like that and could not ride it with speed and grace if they tried.
    If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike. 90% of what I saw in that video, I'd ride on a drop bar bike. That looks like a gravel road compared to any trail I'd go out of my way to want to ride.

  38. #38
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    I finally watched that whole video. It looked challenging but not brutal. I would ride it but the average rider would have a pretty hard time with it. Then again, maybe I have low expectations for AVERAGE riders. That's a hard thing to define objectively, but I lead group rides full of people who can barely bunnyhop a curb, so that's my understanding of the weekend warrior type that makes up the bulk of the skills bell curve.

    The riders in the video had to dismount and walk at least once. It's hard to tell with all the distortion from a POV video viewed on a 5" wide screen, but I still this that's a bit harder than what most average mountain bikers are used to.

    Please don't turn this into a pissing contest.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
    At least to me.
    That's your opinion, man. I'd revel in the joy of climb a hill just to get to another hill. But that's me. "So much jumping" is strange to some people for this reason.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I finally watched that whole video. It looked challenging but not brutal. I would ride it but the average rider would have a pretty hard time with it. Then again, maybe I have low expectations for AVERAGE riders. That's a hard thing to define objectively, but I lead group rides full of people who can barely bunnyhop a curb, so that's my understanding of the weekend warrior type that makes up the bulk of the skills bell curve.

    The riders in the video had to dismount and walk at least once. It's hard to tell with all the distortion from a POV video viewed on a 5" wide screen, but I still this that's a bit harder than what most average mountain bikers are used to.

    Please don't turn this into a pissing contest.
    It's not a contest. It's just that skills progress differently where there is a prevalence of certain things. It's not an abnormal trail for around here (much tamer than a lot of stuff on the NorthShore for example) so I didn't agree with the hyperbole. The curb jumping thing is interesting because I ride with quite a few people who can't bunny hop at all but go full send with skill and confidence off of large tables and 6' step downs/drops.

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  41. #41
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    Again, regional differences. Where I live, OI can ride out my driveway and have access to hundreds of miles of rocky singletrack, but there are very few opportunities to "send" anything or huck much more than a 12' drop. I could make a day trip to Spider Mountain and pedal my bike to the famous 9th Street Trails, or one of a few other places that I know better than to mention in public, but many people like myself have no interest in doing so.

    Very few places have terrain like that and places that do encourage that kind of riding. If you could somehow poll a sample of riders that represents the breadth of experiences we enjoy, I think you'd find that most people feel that way too. It's not better or right, just a preference. That's the heart of the question here- why does the media focus on the extreme ends of the sport? The answer is still- because that the part that's most interesting to watch for most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    because that the part that's most interesting to watch for most people.
    Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.

    OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?
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    There are helpful skills that involve taking your wheels off the ground. That's why you always see posts here about how to bunny hop and manual.

    Some trails are for jumping. Shared-use trails are not very jumpy. Lift served MTB parks at ski resorts are very very jumpy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    If you really think that, I wonder if you even own a mountain bike. 90% of what I saw in that video, I'd ride on a drop bar bike. That looks like a gravel road compared to any trail I'd go out of my way to want to ride.
    Sounds pretty gnarly, where ya at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.

    OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?
    ^ this guy should post more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    So.... what's the question?
    Why all the circus tricks on bikes?
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    I'd say jumping makes for great video. I do like to catch some air, but nothing big. But most (99.9%) of my riding is just trail riding. I love rocky singletrack, flowing singletrack, any singletrack. I like the occasional jump and drop, but it's not I go out of the way to just do jumps (anymore). But if I take a video, it's almost always of a jump or drop because it's more fun to show off doing that one cool feature rather than the 20 miles of trail I rode that day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom tom View Post
    Why all the circus tricks on bikes?
    Fun?

    I'm pretty sure it's not because it's unpleasant?
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    I bet you there's a YouTube community that enjoys watching gravel grinding. Could you imagine? Grind grind grind. Grind grind grind. Grind some more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I bet you there's a YouTube community that enjoys watching gravel grinding. Could you imagine? Grind grind grind. Grind grind grind. Grind some more.
    I recently learned that there's a TV channel (streaming) that is just the front view of a train on train tracks. Granted a lot of the footage is of scenic locations, but common, it's just grinding gravel (guided by rails).

    (truthfully I'll ride a bike all day with a smile on my face, even under "boring" conditions. I love, and prefer to spend all of my time on singletrack, but I'd happily grind gravel as an alternative to riding the road when the trails are too wet to ride responsibly.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I recently learned that there's a TV channel (streaming) that is just the front view of a train on train tracks. Granted a lot of the footage is of scenic locations, but common, it's just grinding gravel (guided by rails).

    (truthfully I'll ride a bike all day with a smile on my face, even under "boring" conditions. I love, and prefer to spend all of my time on singletrack, but I'd happily grind gravel as an alternative to riding the road when the trails are too wet to ride responsibly.)
    Yeah, doing said activity and watching said activity on your laptop are very different.

    A long time ago my roommate and I sat down to watch jet boat racing. We thought, "This should be exciting. You know, boats powered by jets, fast as hell." Well, on screen you'd see a jet boat kind of bobbing up and down in the middle of the tv, water a blur behind it. After a few minutes we realized that we were basically looking at a boat sitting in the middle of the screen. The excitement that the pilot must've felt did not translate to the tv at all.

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    I think jumping is a fundamental skill. There are a few natural 'jumps' on my local trails that if you can't jump you will be slower in that section. One is a g-out through a gully that will launch you into the air coming out of it if you ride it even moderately fast. Another is a dip that leads to a slight uphill then another dip to flat (natural tabletop). Another popular scenario is gapping over roots or using a root to gap over something else. Someone good at jumping/hopping can hit a root or other small bump to fly multiple bike lengths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    Just because a person disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't ride, they just ride different.
    I imagine the issue he has is the same that I have. Saying that the Olympics course is something that 99.9% of riders couldn't ride and that it's a 100 times harder isn't really a disagreement. It's misguided hyperbole at best and speaking for someone else at worst.

    I have 200ish miles within a 30 minute pedal, single-track 70' out the door and some greenway to other systems, that have trails that are comparable to flat out more difficult than the Olympics course shown. Quite a few of those trails see thousands of distinct riders a year so the numbers don't add up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Most xc trails that are green or blue rated donít include mandatory air.
    I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?

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    Why so much jumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?
    The only thing Iíve seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.


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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I don't know that you are thinking about XC correctly. This is the XC course for the 2020 Olympics.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-a-...xc-course.html

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    Great video. I understand from other comments that this is an above average XC course so they must be pushing their XC bikes to their limit. Is it rated as blue? I did find it amazing how they had traction on those smooth rocks. I hope it's not raining during the actual race!

    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I'm not a big jumper. There are some newer jump lines that have been built around me. I ride and enjoy them but I ride more bmx style, just letting the bike follow the terrain while I float over it. You can ride at surprising speeds while doing this, without leaving the ground. Of course, this doesn't work for gap jumps or drops. I will ride smaller drops and I do jump a little, but I can't afford a big crash, either. Plus that would hurt!
    Got it! Will be careful with those gap jumps if I'm going fast. I do remember a two feet drop. My bike could do it without the chain-ring hitting so I did it at walking speed. I guess it's the wrong way to do it but there was another drop a bike and a half-length away (!)

    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    So.... what's the question?
    Can XC bikes handle man-made/artificial jumps? Can trail bikes handle man-made/artificial jumps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The OP asked about "trail bikes"... For at least three brands I'm aware of, Orbea, Intense, Santa Cruz, their XC bike frame is the same as their trail version. I'd happily take my Oiz TR off of most stuff that isn't a drop to relatively flat or one of the 10'+ high road gap stepdowns. Is it going to be as fast through some of it as my Rallon, absolutely not. However it does jump better off of certain types of jumps than the Rallon.

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    Wow, really? Same frame? What about head tube angle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    seem to recall reading a Facebook post from one of our local trail designers who said that if a trail feature has mandatory air (no ride-around, impossible to roll) then the trail by default gets rated black.
    There's a trail I once took that was absolutely easy except for a two feet drop followed by two smaller drops. Maybe that's the whole reason why it was blue instead of green...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Wow, really? Same frame? What about head tube angle?
    Exact same frame, head angles are a tad slacker due to a 120mm travel fork vs 100mm. To be fair those, even though the have TR or trail in the name, are more marathon XC bikes. They're not going to hold up like an Evil Following, Norco Optic or other short travel brawler but as long as you aren't casing or landing to flat they are durable bikes. Same with rock gardens, they're not a speed smash and pray type bike but are still capable if the rider can ride smooth and light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roughster View Post
    In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing *IS* intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".

    However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.
    After I had been riding six months, I learned to take all estimates of rate of progression with a grain of salt.

    Your mileage may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I don't understand your question/comment.

    I also don't understand why you quoted 'artificial' jump. What is your understanding of artificial jump?

    I'd consider a natural jump to be a bump in the trail, not created with intent.
    I'd consider a man-made jump to be machine made or hand cut and shaped.
    I'd consider an artificial jump a metal ramp like is seen in X-Games.


    Are you simply trying to understand why we all have a death wish and 'jump' our bikes?
    Do you believe that once one gets on a bike they must ride jump trails with no way to avoid these trails?
    Are you trying to figure out why you got into riding since the conditions aren't what you expected of them?

    Just trying to understand the context of your thread. It means something to you because you registered a few months ago and this is the first thing you ask about in 4 months.
    I wanted to know if XC bikes can withstand jumps. I mentioned "artificial" ramps for lack of a better term. Now I understand the difference between natural, man-made, and artificial. I suppose that XC bikes can handle natural jumps, but big and nasty man-made and artificial ones? No way, right?

    Trail bikes are obviously for tougher terrain but are they designed for the intent of jumping about from man-made or artificial ramps/jumps? Or would you need an enduro/all mountain if you want to take on the big jumps safely?

    I never thought of people having a death wish, and I don't believe that one must ride jump trails with no way to avoid them, nor am I trying to figure out why I got into this sport.

    One of the main reasons that I ask is because there is some equipment (putting geometry, travel, and tires aside) meant for XC and others for trail use. If trail use is defined by jumping I'll keep my XC duty equipment for my green and blue trails.

    My original question was vague because I'm only starting to understand this sport better. Especially after the shock horror realization that mountain bikers seem to welcome absolutely artificial or man-made features into a sport with the word "mountain" in it. That's what I'm still trying to wrap my head around! But it's just a matter of nomenclature. Like clipping into clip-less pedals or needing an all-mountain mtb for doing tabletops safely. Whaaat?!?!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?
    Green, blue, black trails can all be done safely with an xc bike if the rider has the skills. They can all be extremely hazardous too for someone who doesnít have the skills. Thereís a video of a pro mountain bike racer taking a cross bike down one of Whistlerís black flow trails, so it can be done if youíre good enough.

    I would not say thereís a direct correlation between trail rating and bike type, because really, people can ride what they want. An exception might be red (or pro) lines on which youíll probably only see big DH bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Or would you need an enduro/all mountain if you want to take on the big jumps safely?
    Mostly you need skill but bigger bikes are generally more forgiving if you get sloppy. At the same time, bigger bikes tend to encourage more aggressive riding at higher speeds so maybe any increase in safety gets lost because when you crash it will be more spectacular?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I saw some mandatory air on that race course. It wasn't in the form of jumps per se, but rather drops. Some of those were rollable, but certainly more like hucks at race pace. Others looked like mandatory hucks.

    There are so many jumps because people like jumps. Some people will look to jump off of anything they find. This can be detrimental to the trail if it's not designed into it, because you'll get people creating a bunch of new lines. Maybe not a big deal if it's just to the side of the existing line, but a bunch of spiderwebbing from people riding in totally new side trails to access jumps is a problem.

    The trails themselves are manmade, so by extension, so are jumps. Even if it's a line off of a rock or a bump in the ground. It wasn't a jump until someone started riding it. But yeah, sometimes jumps are built with more work and intent. Big dirt jumps or even wooden features. Where I live, some jumps are made from big rocks intentionally placed.

    I'm almost 40 with a health history, terrible insurance, and I'm not comfortable with big air, but even I find a little bit of air to be lots of fun. I tend to prefer drops, but I also like rollers and tabletops. I draw the line at gap jumps, though.

    Mountain biking period means that there's going to be opportunity for your wheels to leave the ground. Even in xc riding. You don't have to take that opportunity if you don't want to. Sure, xc bikes aren't meant to really excel on jump lines or do big hucks, but they can handle some of that, especially under a skilled rider who can ride with finesse and isn't hulk smashing everything. Mountain biking has always been about riding the terrain you find on the trail. Early mtbs were really limited in what they could actually ride, but over the years, bike manufacturers have figured out how to make bikes more versatile and that has really opened up the kinds of terrain that bikes can handle. And that has opened up mountain biking to a wide variety of "styles" of riding depending on what you like and what you have available.
    Thank you for your reply. It's true, all trails are man made but some seem more "made" than others. Where I live mountainbiking is a against the law so we don't have many features nor riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughster View Post
    In six months you will revisit this post and laugh. MTB'ing *IS* intimidating when you first start and everything looks tough and scary, especially "jumping" or "air time".

    However, what you will learn as your ability and techniques advance is logging air time is often the fastest / safest way down certain sections. Also, trail builders will almost always offer jumps / drops whenever possible as this is what riders naturally progress to. You will too believe it or not, it just takes time and practice.

    So, until then, relax and ride around it. If you never develop the taste for it, great, avoid them / ride around. Easy enough!
    It sure is intimidating and scary at first but I'm getting a hang of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    a ramp is simply a ramp. what the hell is an 'artificial' ramp?
    Hahahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post
    I think I've had more scary experiences and close calls on natures strategically placed wet roots and rocks than I have had jumping. At least with jumping I am prepared to possibly bail. Being scared to do it can make jumping more dangerous if you don't commit, so don't make yourself jump off something if you are uncomfortable. Sometimes it helps to follow someone you trust over a jump if you decide to give it a try.
    Ok, Can I ask if you were on clipless or on flats?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Whats the point of riding if you aren't jumping? Suffering through any climb is only so you can go down the other side and hopefully hit a few jumps on the way.
    At least to me.
    Maybe because I ride a 26" with max pressure in tires it's more difficult and exciting. I once saw a guy speeding by in a 27 or 29r with low pressure on what sounded like tubeless and it seemed so easy that I guess he'd have to jump to get a thrill out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yup. And along those same lines, it only seems like an issue to those who spend more time watching videos than riding their local trails.

    OP - how many of these types of jumps have you encountered in real life versus while watching Youtube?
    NONE. There's only one pump track where I live and it opens only once a month if at all. I just ride on hiking trails. It's against the law and it being that way the trails or not designed for bikers nor do they have any man-made mtb features. But even if I did find a place where I could jump I wouldn't do it. My main reason for asking was to know if the so called trail bikes (aside from geometry) are designed with jumping in mind, because if that's the case, I'll keep my current bike. I could have made the question that simply but wasn't sure how to ask...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Green, blue, black trails can all be done safely with an xc bike if the rider has the skills. They can all be extremely hazardous too for someone who doesnít have the skills. Thereís a video of a pro mountain bike racer taking a cross bike down one of Whistlerís black flow trails, so it can be done if youíre good enough.

    I would not say thereís a direct correlation between trail rating and bike type, because really, people can ride what they want. An exception might be red (or pro) lines on which youíll probably only see big DH bikes.
    Great this is a great reply. Thank you very much to you and all of you who contributed your thoughts into this topic. I'm starting to understand that indeed it's up to the rider to ride safely and that the duty of the mountain bike is just an added measure of safety. As long as we're not talking about extremely harsh trails or extreme jumps with flat landings, a "light" rider can do them safely even in an XC-duty bike.

    In fact, I do remember when practicing going down the stairs that if I'm all stiff, my fork will bottom out loudly whereas if I'm light, it won't. I've tried to take that being light practice to the mountain but I'm scared of loosening the grip from the handlebars too much. I gotta refine that.

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    I'm personally not a jumper. I prefer rocky, rooty knarly tech as opposed to jumping.

    Coming from 15 years of expert class MX, you'd think I'd want to jump, but that's not the case!

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    Where do you live that mountain biking is illegal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Where do you live that mountain biking is illegal?
    Japan. You can't ride bicycles on mountain trails. Obviously there are some places (private property) where it can be done but they are very rare. I personally ride in weekdays or at night. Then again I don't think you'll get into lots of trouble unless you crash into someone. All this means is that the trails are either very simple or unsuitable for mountain bikes.

    Also, there is virtually no mountain biking culture. Most mtb bikes and components sold are XC and there's a notorious lack of safety equipment in shop displays and catalogs.

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    Yeah, Japan is KING of the custom commuter bike. MTB is only for pros, there...
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I'm starting to understand that indeed it's up to the rider to ride safely and that the duty of the mountain bike is just an added measure of safety. As long as we're not talking about extremely harsh trails or extreme jumps with flat landings, a "light" rider can do them safely even in an XC-duty bike.
    Well put; you've got it now.

    You can pretty much extrapolate that to every bit of gear that anyone tells you that 'you have to buy X to do Y'. It's basic BS for the most part.
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    The capability of newer bikes can make traditional trails boring, so riders with newer and more capable bikes may be seeking jumps and obstacles just to make the ride more interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?
    The color coding thing is kinda new to MTB and wildy disparate depending on location.
    Where I live, only a very small percentage of public trails have had people try to attach ratings to them and from what I've seen, pretty much nobody really pays attention to them except novices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Japan.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzWJ68_8Me4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The only thing Iíve seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.
    People on DJ/slopestyle bikes hit many of the big lines around here, and most other places I'd assume. If there weren't restrictions on equipment, I'll bet that most of them would've been popped at some point on BMX bikes too. (Was just reading along to that conversation regarding the new pro line that was built down the road from me.)

    Of course, that applies to the newer-school trails, not the good 'ol chunky stuff. But yeah, watch any slopestyle competition and you'll see guys going huge on minimal equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    The color coding thing is kinda new to MTB and wildy disparate depending on location.
    Where I live, only a very small percentage of public trails have had people try to attach ratings to them and from what I've seen, pretty much nobody really pays attention to them except novices.
    Where I live, the vast majority of the trails are older than I am and are shoehorned onto old logging road corridors. The USFS assigned difficulty ratings decades ago based on how difficult they are to hike uphill (because mtb wasn't even a thing at the time), which mostly only took into account length and grade. It's only really luck that those ratings seem to correlate to some degree with how difficult they are to ride. Plus, with the heavy rain we get here in addition to the traffic levels, the trails have changed massively. The first time I rode here was almost 20yrs ago, and the trails I rode then don't look anything like what they do now. Yet the difficulty rating is the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    People on DJ/slopestyle bikes hit many of the big lines around here, and most other places I'd assume. If there weren't restrictions on equipment, I'll bet that most of them would've been popped at some point on BMX bikes too. (Was just reading along to that conversation regarding the new pro line that was built down the road from me.)

    Of course, that applies to the newer-school trails, not the good 'ol chunky stuff. But yeah, watch any slopestyle competition and you'll see guys going huge on minimal equipment.

    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
    Yup, the old-school natural stuff is a whole different story.
    Personally, I prefer it, but that's probably because I can't jump.

    New school jump style trails are super popular at lift served venues, little harder to find 'in the wild', but they are out there. Many are kept off the radar by the builders though, similar to DJ spots. Don't need a bunch of unqualified riders killing themselves, or more importantly, the trashing the trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Where I live, the vast majority of the trails are older than I am and are shoehorned onto old logging road corridors. The USFS assigned difficulty ratings decades ago based on how difficult they are to hike uphill (because mtb wasn't even a thing at the time), which mostly only took into account length and grade. It's only really luck that those ratings seem to correlate to some degree with how difficult they are to ride. Plus, with the heavy rain we get here in addition to the traffic levels, the trails have changed massively. The first time I rode here was almost 20yrs ago, and the trails I rode then don't look anything like what they do now. Yet the difficulty rating is the same.
    "Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing

    One set of trails here - boring as all get out. Its all single track, and smooth. There is next to zero technical items. All smooth dirt.
    I frequent the place only because it is 8 minutes from my house, and it's a great place to get a workout, since it is so smooth.
    The PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (garbage bureaucracy as far as I am concerned!) rates this trail system as "difficult". IMBA ratings have it as "Easiest".

    I agree with IMBA!


    Another trail here, it is locally rated as Double Black. But, it is a slow, technical trail. I think the fastest guy has done it in about 13 minutes. Its just over 1.2 miles long. Its simply a double black because if you can clean this trail, you are doing extremely well. I've only ever cleaned about 95%. One section I just cannot clean. The rocks are so large, while heading uphill and in corners, I haven't been able to do it all yet.
    I've cleaned every section independently, but never all together in one run.
    That to me is the fun and challenge!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
    Yep, I agree, well built jump lines, even huge ones, are relatively smooth if ridden as intended. They're usually rated high due to the consequences if something goes wrong. That's why you see guys going full send on them on road bikes. Natural pro lines are a completely different animal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
    That spine starting at around 1:30 is sick! Yikes! Up until then I was thinking to myself, "I bet I could ride that." Then NOPE! Haha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    "Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing

    One set of trails here - boring as all get out. Its all single track, and smooth. There is next to zero technical items. All smooth dirt.
    I frequent the place only because it is 8 minutes from my house, and it's a great place to get a workout, since it is so smooth.
    The PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (garbage bureaucracy as far as I am concerned!) rates this trail system as "difficult". IMBA ratings have it as "Easiest".

    I agree with IMBA!
    It sorta is arbitrary, but if whoever assigns the ratings actually does so based on some kind of clear criteria, then they can at least be informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It sorta is arbitrary, but if whoever assigns the ratings actually does so based on some kind of clear criteria, then they can at least be informative.
    I've understood it is sort of like ski resorts. The ratings are only relative to the other slopes on that mountain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That spine starting at around 1:30 is sick! Yikes! Up until then I was thinking to myself, "I bet I could ride that." Then NOPE! Haha!
    I was thinking the same thing. Then I noticed that I was hearing very little "impact" sound in the video from all the chunk and it occurred to me that the rider was probably on a really big bike, possibly a downhill bike, and that the rider was probably spending a lot of time in the air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    I've understood it is sort of like ski resorts. The ratings are only relative to the other slopes on that mountain.
    even moreso, I'd wager. I've ridden in a lot of places and have sampled some really technically difficult trails in many of them. They're all difficult in very different ways. Some have high consequences for failure. Others don't, but they're still really hard. Some have high speeds and big drops, and some are very slow and rely heavily on trials type skills. You just can't use the same criteria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. Then I noticed that I was hearing very little "impact" sound in the video from all the chunk and it occurred to me that the rider was probably on a really big bike, possibly a downhill bike, and that the rider was probably spending a lot of time in the air.
    On most of the trail if I were able to block out the exposure on either side of me I could probably roll it but the mandatory gap at 1:42 with cliff on either side is where I'd be summoning a Lyft out of there.

    Not to mention that everything looks way harder in real life than on YouTube...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    "Difficulty" rating is such a ridiculously subjective and I believe arbitrary thing
    I was going to say that too. We have one trail here, from the old school days, that dips into a small gully and rolls back and forth down the length. There's minimal technical challenge within it but somehow the old timers rated it a black. In British Columbia it'd be a kids' trail.

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    Everywhere I have ridden so far, the trail ratings were relative to the area. Frustrating because the one bike park has "Double Black Diamond" on some trails that are half as bad as the DB at the other bike park. And I end up nearly running people over on those double blacks at the bigger park when people drop down a trail they shouldn't be on.

    At least so far , the trails I have ridden listed as "Pro Line", they were all pretty sketchy. Still people who don't belong, but far fewer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
    Making my first trip out there in a couple of weeks...I think I just added this to my list of trails to ride!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yeah, I should have said that I'm referring to more natural trails, as opposed to "lines" created for events.

    Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up. Not manicured.

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/700...g-monkey-trail
    this is just the noob in me I guess, but how do enough people ride something like that for it to become an official trail? There can only really be a small percentage of people who can ride that...

    man, I wish I could be remotely close to that level some day...
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8edgMTBMXer View Post
    this is just the noob in me I guess, but how do enough people ride something like that for it to become an official trail? There can only really be a small percentage of people who can ride that...

    man, I wish I could be remotely close to that level some day...
    The more I travel around and see what people are riding the more I appreciate that there are a lot of really talented riders out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    ..Here's a good example. Extreme consequences if you mess up..
    love that trail. lost my bike over the side once. took me almost an hour to get it and bring it back up...


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    love that trail. lost my bike over the side once. took me almost an hour to get it and bring it back up...
    That's awesome.
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    XCer learning jumps (not on an XC bike)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4UQAuuUYjY

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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    XCer learning jumps (not on an XC bike)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4UQAuuUYjY
    I should learn how to do that...

    Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I should learn how to do that...

    Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???
    The heavy bike will have plusses and minuses. Namely it will need more energy to be input for the same result. That can lead to it being more stable but also more difficult to move around when airborne. Flat pedals will actually force you to learn with the correct technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The heavy bike will have plusses and minuses. Namely it will need more energy to be input for the same result. That can lead to it being more stable but also more difficult to move around when airborne. Flat pedals will actually force you to learn with the correct technique.

    Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
    So I have to go faster and/or lift the front wheel harder?
    And while in the air, to sort of maintain the trajectory of the bike, is it necessary to grip hard and lock one's wrists?
    And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.

    Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    So I have to go faster and/or lift the front wheel harder?
    And while in the air, to sort of maintain the trajectory of the bike, is it necessary to grip hard and lock one's wrists?
    And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.

    Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.
    Maybe a little faster, maybe. No, don't yank on the front wheel per se. It's more to do with the stomp that is one fluid motion of loading front then rear as you approach the lip and unloading on the lip.

    You should never be stiff or "locked" in the air that leads to bad things. You weigh more than the bike it's not going to fall away from you unless you do something horribly wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I should learn how to do that...

    Do I have to compensate/make considerations for heavy bike and flat pedals here???
    You do have to have developed some sort of comfort level riding flat pedals.

    Bike weight has very little to do with jumping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post

    Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.
    definitely good to think about it, even if you don't think you're at the point where you'd want to try it out on the trail.

    but all theory and no hands-on can only get you so far. you'd learn quicker and get comfortable quicker if you mix in hands-on with online learning. because the information that you've gathered thus far (from youtube, books, articles, forums..etc) will register in a different way once you've had some hands-on time

    start with a curb, keep riding off of it and just spend 15 mins trying different things (that wrist thing you were talking about, how speed affects the bike, or just to see how the pedals react). that's all it takes to get you started. get fully padded up if it helps.

    and once you've done that, you'll likely come up with a second round of questions to research. that's when you come back online and either ask new questions and re-read the stuff you've already read to see if anything new jumps out at you.

    rinse and repeat

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    And most importantly, is the bike more likely to fall off my feet with this heavy/flat configuration? That's kinnda my main fear.
    There are ways to keep your feet connected to the pedals in the air when you want. It's just a technique thing. But note that with more advanced jumping, that the riders oftentimes purposely remove their feet from the pedals. So it's not that big of a deal.

    And like slapheadmofo says, you need to work on the skills necessary to ride with platform pedals and be fairly comfortable with that, anyway, before you go jumping with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Note: I still don't intend to jump because I'm a novice and there aren't good places to jump where I live but would like to know a little more about it at least in theory.
    I recommend some legit skills instruction. At your level, jumping won't be part of it, in all honesty, but the skills you'll be working on will be the same ones you'd eventually need to use for jumping.

    You can take classes in person, but there are also some online options.

    ryanleechconnection.com is a good one that breaks down larger skills into smaller, more attainable things for you to work on. Watch the video(s), then go outside and practice. Record yourself, ask questions, get feedback from other coaches. There's a 30 day flat pedal challenge lesson that would be really good to give you the foundation to get comfortable on your pedals. And yeah, he has one on jumping, too, for when you're ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    But note that with more advanced jumping, that the riders oftentimes purposely remove their feet from the pedals. So it's not that big of a deal.
    Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.

    I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.

    I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.
    I'm not sure if they do or not. Would make sense if there was some sort of gadget that did that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.

    I love jumping. I can do it on both flats and with clipless but I'm not to the point where I can purposely remove my feet on the pedals to do fancy tricks. I've come apart from a pedal once on accident and landed one-footed. Thank god I rolled out of that one unscathed.
    They over tighten them. It was either Cam or T Mac that forgot to do that once so used a diaper to get through the segment he was shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I'll pass on the jumps for now. My question though, I thought trails were color coded regardless whether they're XC, trail, enduro, or DH. In other words, blue and green trails can be done safely with an XC bike. Is there any correlation between trail difficulty and bike type?
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The only thing Iíve seen that really correlates to bike type is double black/pro line trails. Which are few and far between. They are universally big bike territory.


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    Keep in mind the rating is compared to other trails in the area and not consistent from one location to another.

    We have a bike park here in VA, love the place but it could be ridden on a hardtail and it has black diamond trails. Transplant these out west and they might make blue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    They over tighten them. It was either Cam or T Mac that forgot to do that once so used a diaper to get through the segment he was shooting.

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    Yeah, thatís where I heard of it! It was one of Cam Macís videos where they were racing around the neighborhood.

    Hereís the Crank Stopper product:
    https://revolutionproducts.co.nz/pro...-crank-stopper

    Speaking of whom, a couple of months ago I was getting ready to send it down one of our local jump trails. I got my full face on, pads, Strava, totally gnar core...

    As Iím just about to go Cam and his friends rolled up (this was the week of the Black Sage and Marzocchi Proving Grounds Red Bull Rampage qualifier events here in Central Oregon). I slinked my elderly ass out of there, tail between my legs and hid in the bushes.

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    Another funny story, this spring I went to another riding area nearby known for its serious technical jump line. When I got there Carson Storch was just finishing up riding and filming. There was a big film crew there with professional looking camera equipment doing their thing.

    Iím farting around on the trail warming up to some doubles and noticed a couple of the crew looking over. I pretty much just froze up and waited for them to leave, lol. Didnít want them to witness my weekend warrior mad skillz!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Maybe a little faster, maybe. No, don't yank on the front wheel per se. It's more to do with the stomp that is one fluid motion of loading front then rear as you approach the lip and unloading on the lip.

    You should never be stiff or "locked" in the air that leads to bad things. You weigh more than the bike it's not going to fall away from you unless you do something horribly wrong.

    Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
    Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style? Maybe one style suits a certain type of jump better than another?

    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    definitely good to think about it, even if you don't think you're at the point where you'd want to try it out on the trail.

    but all theory and no hands-on can only get you so far. you'd learn quicker and get comfortable quicker if you mix in hands-on with online learning. because the information that you've gathered thus far (from youtube, books, articles, forums..etc) will register in a different way once you've had some hands-on time

    start with a curb, keep riding off of it and just spend 15 mins trying different things (that wrist thing you were talking about, how speed affects the bike, or just to see how the pedals react). that's all it takes to get you started. get fully padded up if it helps.

    and once you've done that, you'll likely come up with a second round of questions to research. that's when you come back online and either ask new questions and re-read the stuff you've already read to see if anything new jumps out at you.

    rinse and repeat
    Will do. In fact, I can lift the wheel onto the curb now quite nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I recommend some legit skills instruction. At your level, jumping won't be part of it, in all honesty, but the skills you'll be working on will be the same ones you'd eventually need to use for jumping.

    You can take classes in person, but there are also some online options.

    ryanleechconnection.com is a good one that breaks down larger skills into smaller, more attainable things for you to work on. Watch the video(s), then go outside and practice. Record yourself, ask questions, get feedback from other coaches. There's a 30 day flat pedal challenge lesson that would be really good to give you the foundation to get comfortable on your pedals. And yeah, he has one on jumping, too, for when you're ready.
    Yes, I will start working on my skill! I'm feeling much more motivated after sharing with you guys on this forum. I'm looking at some bike radar vids on youtube now. It's just that there so many that you can get over saturated at first but I think these guys are ok.

    You know what would be really useful? An exam where I can make sure I know the meaning of all the feature types, skills and techniques, and all the vocab/lingo I need to know related with mtb. I say because it all seems to be coming to me in bits and pieces and while I can read some material, an online evaluation will be so useful...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style? Maybe one style suits a certain type of jump better than another?

    I have seen the American bunny hop used to help get the point across in a skills class. However, over the Internet I'll say no. Some of the motions are the same but the weight shift is markedly different. And yes, the shape of the jump effects what and how technique is applied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Are you describing a bunnyhop? Maybe English or American style?
    Probably best to avoid that language. Trained, professional coaches aren't using it anymore, so the places you find that language used are mostly going to be folks who may or may not know what they're talking about.

    Use the terms "level lift" or just "hop" instead of "English bunny hop" and "bunny hop" instead of "American bunny hop" for the different types. It makes sense for the terminology to be more different because the motions are also vastly different. A level lift is a pretty beginner skill that you can learn right after getting front wheel lifts and rear wheel lifts. It's entirely possible to get all three figured out in less than an hour, especially with a coach's direction.

    But a bunny hop is a combination of movements that have to be timed just so in order to execute a proper bunny hop. This one will take some time to figure out the basics and quite awhile to actually get an effective one. After 20+yrs of riding, I've figured out the "bunny flop" pretty well. Still working to turn it into an actual hop.

    Some people are going to disagree with me on the language part of this. But what I'm saying is based on mtb skills coach cert training and the language that they're using and standardizing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    You know what would be really useful? An exam where I can make sure I know the meaning of all the feature types, skills and techniques, and all the vocab/lingo I need to know related with mtb. I say because it all seems to be coming to me in bits and pieces and while I can read some material, an online evaluation will be so useful...
    That all comes in time if you read and think about biking enough. The lingo is ever-changing too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That all comes in time if you read and think about biking enough. The lingo is ever-changing too.
    Make sure you have your flat brim translator hat on, just in case!


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    I ride XC with HT. All my jumps are clearly less than 1m (3 feet).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Probably best to avoid that language. Trained, professional coaches aren't using it anymore, so the places you find that language used are mostly going to be folks who may or may not know what they're talking about.

    Use the terms "level lift" or just "hop" instead of "English bunny hop" and "bunny hop" instead of "American bunny hop" for the different types. It makes sense for the terminology to be more different because the motions are also vastly different. A level lift is a pretty beginner skill that you can learn right after getting front wheel lifts and rear wheel lifts. It's entirely possible to get all three figured out in less than an hour, especially with a coach's direction.

    But a bunny hop is a combination of movements that have to be timed just so in order to execute a proper bunny hop. This one will take some time to figure out the basics and quite awhile to actually get an effective one. After 20+yrs of riding, I've figured out the "bunny flop" pretty well. Still working to turn it into an actual hop.

    Some people are going to disagree with me on the language part of this. But what I'm saying is based on mtb skills coach cert training and the language that they're using and standardizing.
    Got it. Speaking of language/terminology, I'd think the sport would be more accurately called off-road biking since there is so much you can do without the need of a mountain.

    To get these figured within an hour? All I've figured in months is that the only way I can lift the front wheel relevantly is by pulling with my arms and jumping off the pedals, running the risk of hitting my chest or face with the steering tube or missing the pedals on the way down (!) That won't lead me anywhere I guess. When getting on a curb, however, it's not like that, I step hard onto the left pedal while pushing? pulling? my left arm simultaneously.

    Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare so I have to figure this out on my own with the help of course of the forum members and videos...

    Anyway, maybe my bike isn't suitable for hops or wheelies in the first place. It's a 26", weighs 18kg and different from the one in the picture, mine has a 32mm stem. But seeing the distance between the BB and the rear wheel axle, I guess it falls into the "hard to do tricks with" category...

    I know I know I know, you'll say it's not a real mtb and you'll encourage me to change my bike as soon as you see it but that's not an option here at the moment. I only have space for one bike and more than 90% of its use will be commuting. So far I've done the few trails I've access to nicely with it. And it's more exciting with a 26" with max tire pressure, kept that way because of the many steps on the mountain and bcz I want to avoid flat tires at all costs (hate mosquitoes).



    No sag and negligible travel.

    If it doesn't work for hopping, etc, it's ok. It works for the trails I ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why so much jumping?-screenshot-2019-11-11-8.28.48-pm.png  

    Why so much jumping?-screenshot-2019-11-11-8-28-48-pm.png  

    Last edited by AlbertHenry; 1 Week Ago at 05:01 AM. Reason: missing comment

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    To get these figured within an hour?
    Yes, within an hour, and not how you described. With some direction, you'll definitely have an "aha!" moment or two or more in the process.

    Yeah, your bike will make things harder in some respects. But in others, it won't matter. It's still a bike with two wheels.

    If you're motivated, you can fit two bikes into the space you have. There are lots of ways to pull it off and I've either done some of them, or seen them done, especially during my college years when people mostly lived in tiny dorm rooms.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Make sure you have your flat brim translator hat on, just in case!


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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare
    You keep saying that, but a quick Google search tells a much different story.

    I'm confused...
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Living in Japan this sport is extremely rare so I have to figure this out on my own with the help of course of the forum members and videos...

    Anyway, maybe my bike isn't suitable for hops or wheelies in the first place. It's a 26", weighs 18kg and different from the one in the picture, mine has a 32mm stem. But seeing the distance between the BB and the rear wheel axle, I guess it falls into the "hard to do tricks with" category...

    I know I know I know, you'll say it's not a real mtb and you'll encourage me to change my bike as soon as you see it but that's not an option here at the moment. I only have space for one bike and more than 90% of its use will be commuting. So far I've done the few trails I've access to nicely with it. And it's more exciting with a 26" with max tire pressure, kept that way because of the many steps on the mountain and bcz I want to avoid flat tires at all costs (hate mosquitoes).
    you're bike shouldn't matter, the things you are hoping to learn (lift wheel, tiny jumps, curbs.. etc) is do-able on any bike.

    just go out and play around. empty streets, parks, parking lots... etc

    I don't know how old you are, but as someone who rode bikes a lot from 5-16 years old, and just starting to ride again now in my 30s; I noticed that as a kid I tend to try and do all sorts of "stunts", I sucked but I tried, without knowing any proper technique (no internet).

    But as an adult, I noticed that once I'm on the bike I tend to be more focused on getting to the destination.... no playing! no fooling around!


    It's hard to say with the Japan thing, as I've found evidence of this sport in Japan. But then there are many islands in that country. So many where you are, it's hard to find fellow riders.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    you're bike shouldn't matter, the things you are hoping to learn (lift wheel, tiny jumps, curbs.. etc) is do-able on any bike.

    just go out and play around. empty streets, parks, parking lots... etc

    I don't know how old you are, but as someone who rode bikes a lot from 5-16 years old, and just starting to ride again now in my 30s; I noticed that as a kid I tend to try and do all sorts of "stunts", I sucked but I tried, without knowing any proper technique (no internet).

    But as an adult, I noticed that once I'm on the bike I tend to be more focused on getting to the destination.... no playing! no fooling around!


    It's hard to say with the Japan thing, as I've found evidence of this sport in Japan. But then there are many islands in that country. So many where you are, it's hard to find fellow riders.
    you mentioned the whole "ignorance of youth" thing, and tryign to figure out tricks. I grew up the same way on BMX...never thought about how to something...you just did it. You knew if you failed b/c you wiped out. Then the next time, you remember wht made you lose control, There was no real analyzation.

    In many ways, I try to do the same thing now at 50. I have watched videos etc, and definitely take things into consideration, but when I go to jump something, I mostly just gauge speed, pull up timing, and landing spot. And I am not doing X Games stuff, just 1 footers, or pipes at the skatepark, or jumping over root cluisters on the trail etc.

    I think there is something to be said about the right combo of technique, and just doing it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Don't the slopestyle guys use some sort of device to prevent their cranks from spinning freely? That way they know exactly where to find their pedals before landing.
    A lot of guys use a bit of inner tube to keep the cranks from spinning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post

    It's hard to say with the Japan thing, as I've found evidence of this sport in Japan. But then there are many islands in that country. So many where you are, it's hard to find fellow riders.
    Something that would help op is to find some like minded people to ride with. That stokes progression and just plain playing around. Yes, sometimes messing around by self is good to because when riding in a group others tend to get bored and move on if youre sessioning the same move over and over and over and over and over!
    Dont lose hope, theyre out there, i know there are some pretty core trials guys in Japan.
    And the two best trials guys here when i was doing that started on some pretty crappy bikes.
    Seat time is important in building skills, there is no substitute. Ride lots. Videos and lessons do help better utilize the time, but you can sit around, watch a million videos, read, visualize all you want, you wont learn it for real until you ride.

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    Well, let's just say that this sport isn't as popular or developed here as it is in the US, Canada, or the UK... I've been scanning my memory for drops and jumps but can only find drops. Two near home and a few more at the trail. Will just have to stick with practicing drops, then. I live nearest to Minoh, which is referred to as "the mecca of mountain biking in the Kansai region" on one website and this is pretty much all the trails they have to offer according to a nearby shop. There are other trails on the mountain which one can ride but the ones highlighted here in purple are the ones you shouldn't get into trouble with the authorities by using.

    Why so much jumping?-img_20191030_164616.jpg

    There is an mtb park with a pump track west from there but it requires a membership and it opens just once a month so that kind of tells you how popular the sport is...

    Then there's Kobe. The trails I take there require more skill with descending stairs but there are many trails in that area reachable by cable-car that I don't know. I just expect them to be a bit steep for my skill level.

    Other miscellaneous trails I've found require (by comparison) an inordinate amount of pedaling before going off road.

    But in conclusion, I'm starting to realize that there are pretty much no jumps around here. Maybe that's why the shops don't bother having real full suspension mountain bikes in stock (unlike my FS mtb which is top class department store grade).

    As for finding others to ride with, I do know someone thanks to his youtube channel but haven't met yet. You see, just recently I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids at Minoh but quickly retracted by saying that I just do that on *my* bike. LOL. Riding solo, and with a "crappy" bike, one is more careful and aware of one's limitations. Or at least I am, unlike my co-worker who just wanted to impress me despite his limitations. Those were some nasty stairs for him!

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    OP is a non-Japanese (judging by his handle) living in Japan, where mountain biking would have to be a rather "underground" activity if it is illegal on all public lands. It is no wonder he has a hard time finding people to ride with.

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    My retirement plan (2 years away) is to cash my business out, buy a house next to a ski resort in Japan, and con the resort into letting me cut trails in for summer

    Talk to you in a couple of years @AlbertHenry

    EDIT: Oh, and to answer the OP question...... BECAUSE IT'S FUN

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids !
    I would probably stop giving advice until you know a lot more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    But in conclusion, I'm starting to realize that there are pretty much no jumps around here.
    Well, I guess you've gone ahead and solved your original issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    As for finding others to ride with, I do know someone thanks to his youtube channel but haven't met yet. You see, just recently I encouraged a coworker to go down some stairs on my bike and he fell and broke his ribs. I remembered that incident -and two other accidents I've caused to others- when giving advice to three local kids at Minoh but quickly retracted by saying that I just do that on *my* bike. LOL. Riding solo, and with a "crappy" bike, one is more careful and aware of one's limitations. Or at least I am, unlike my co-worker who just wanted to impress me despite his limitations. Those were some nasty stairs for him!
    I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.

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    have considered travelling to get your mtb fix?

    check out this series, if you haven't already. i don't know, maybe some places even rent bikes?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...HqtgAYN6O6BR0L

    i live in a fairly flat regioin of the US, and most mountain biking trails are tame trails. with the exception of one newly built system of flow trails with lots of bigger features and jumps. it's about a 50 minutes drive away, I often encounter other riders who've driven over 2 hours just to ride those trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.
    But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home.
    Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home.
    Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.
    That kind of rider doesn't fit the japanese stereotype at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I hope you've learned by now, but I'll emphasize the point. Don't pressure people to ride stuff they're not comfortable with. As you've seen, that's how people get hurt. I'm at a point these days where I can pretty quickly assess other riders' skills so I can oftentimes tell pretty quickly if the planned ride will be too much for them and I can usually make adjustments. YOU need to emphasize to less skilled riders that there's no shame in walking, because that lets you ride another day and continue to get better. If mountain biking is so unpopular in your area, you need to be REALLY careful that you don't develop a reputation for pressuring people into things they aren't ready for. If that happens, you'll never find people to ride with.

    Accident No. 1: I was standing on the outer side of a wide staircased switchback encouraging my coworker to clear it but taking up space in the process. He had to dismount and hop on one leg but didn't fall.
    Accident No. 2: Was raining hard and I stopped in the way of a commuter who was crossing some train lines that were slightly diagonal and his forward wheel slipped into one of them as he tried to go around me.
    Accident No. 3: Was taking turns with my co-worker going down some steep stairs when I suggested he use the front brakes just a little. I emphasized that each time I use the front brake in descents in the mountain I get into trouble. Problem was that I also told him that my front breaks were weak and I think he squeezed them to hard because of that...

    All I know is that if that's your kind of personality, you are more likely to take unmeasured risks if accompanied.

    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    have considered travelling to get your mtb fix?

    check out this series, if you haven't already. i don't know, maybe some places even rent bikes?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...HqtgAYN6O6BR0L

    i live in a fairly flat regioin of the US, and most mountain biking trails are tame trails. with the exception of one newly built system of flow trails with lots of bigger features and jumps. it's about a 50 minutes drive away, I often encounter other riders who've driven over 2 hours just to ride those trails.
    Wow, will watch. I will consider travelling once I get a-lot better because it's not worth it at my current skill level. And hey, I wouldn't mind if it's a flat region. The mere fact of going out and being surrounded by nature is enough for me. And the closer to home the better.

    A little poem I came up with...

    While westerners speed and jump in joy,
    The asian islanders their bikes and bones don't want to destroy.
    But if you decide to visit knowing that hopping you won't enjoy,
    Don't be surprised if the locals are still coy,
    And if you happen to have the best in airs shocks or coil,
    Don't bother bringing them 'cause here it's just plain ancient soil.

    And finally, because of the language and cultural barrier in this peculiar country, it's not easy to casually make the acquaintance of people in an impromptu setting even if you share the same sport, so I don't bother anymore. My co-worker, BTW, isn't local. And speaking of whom, I asked him if he can wheelie and he said yes, but not all bikes are good for that. He told me that my bike's handlebars are too low. I asked him if he could try doing it and he said yes but I later told him not to mind, you know, because of his broken ribs...

  128. #128
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    That video series posted earlier kind of tells a different story I think.

    I'd say you should get out and do some more in-depth exploring.
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    But if you can find those people that despite getting all dinged up come back to ride, youve got riders for life! I still remember my first real trail ride. On a trail that today would easily be rated blue, even black. I was covered in mud, dings, scratches. And here i am 30 years later still doing silly things like ride my cross bike 15 miles, then hit the trail and drop into some black rated dh trails, then ride home.
    Im not a big jumper though, wish i could do more. I do small jumps but my age precludes the risk. Jumping is fun, that weightlessness feeling in midair is great. When you hit a jump right i feels so nice and smooth.
    Sure, it happens, and I've met a few people whose first exposure to mtb involved some kind of harrowing story. I can't say that I've met anyone whose first encounter with mtb involved a broken bone or other sort of hospitalization and stuck with it, but I won't say it'll never happen. Just that it's HIGHLY unlikely. Beyond the new rider/first experience scenario, there's simply the matter of the kind of environment you foster when riding. If you're the sort of person who pressures others into doing things they might not otherwise do, you're going to end up ONLY riding with people willing to take stupid risks. If that's your thing, then so be it. But given OP's comments about how rare it is to find locals interested in mtb of any sort, I can only imagine that fostering such an atmosphere on your rides won't be doing you any favors.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Accident No. 1: I was standing on the outer side of a wide staircased switchback encouraging my coworker to clear it but taking up space in the process. He had to dismount and hop on one leg but didn't fall.
    Accident No. 2: Was raining hard and I stopped in the way of a commuter who was crossing some train lines that were slightly diagonal and his forward wheel slipped into one of them as he tried to go around me.
    Accident No. 3: Was taking turns with my co-worker going down some steep stairs when I suggested he use the front brakes just a little. I emphasized that each time I use the front brake in descents in the mountain I get into trouble. Problem was that I also told him that my front breaks were weak and I think he squeezed them to hard because of that...

    All I know is that if that's your kind of personality, you are more likely to take unmeasured risks if accompanied.
    Fact of the matter is, you were a factor in ALL of those incidents. The last one resulted in broken ribs. The second one was a very dangerous situation that could have been much worse. Crossing railroad tracks on the diagonal is sketch AF when dry. When wet? Fugeddaboutit. Stopping such that you force others around you in the middle of that scenario? Dangerous. The first was pretty much just annoying, I'm sure, but little else.

    As for the last comment, I disagree. I am VERY aware of risk when I'm riding, so I'm always measuring risk. I'm willing to take a LOT less risk when I'm riding solo. I'm also willing to take more risk when I'm riding with specific people than others. Peer pressure has never been something that affects my behavior strongly. I have a tendency to dig in when peer pressure escalates. But I know that not everyone is like that. SOME people might take more unmeasured risks simply by being accompanied (peer pressure or not), but others might be completely reasonable until peer pressure is applied.

    I have been in scenarios where I was present in an area ripe for these kinds of problems. One in particular comes to mind. I was riding with a friend. I was taking risks I was comfortable with, and he was taking risks he was comfortable with (beyond my comfort level, but his skill allowed him to be just fine). We were not pressuring each other at all. We had a video camera and I was recording him hitting a smallish road gap. Some younger riders on cheap bikes who looked like they were fairly low-skilled showed up on this trail and I hid the video camera. I didn't want it to be a factor in peer pressure. I also verbally pointed out that this was a spot that required lots of skill and that if they had any doubts whatsoever, they should skip the drop/gap. One guy did exactly that, and I gave him props for his decision, hopefully fostering an environment where it was okay to make that decision. Another guy apparently had lots more skill than I thought and he hit the gap really well. The third guy, despite my efforts (possibly because his buddy just hit it and made it look easy), tried to ride it and shouldn't have been anywhere near it. He smashed his face in the dirt road, I had to administer some first aid, and we had to take him to the hospital because it looked like a broken nose and a probable concussion.

    I have more specific training in group management and evaluating other riders now than I did then (almost a decade ago), and given that, I'd probably more actively discourage that rider from attempting the gap. I've also spent lots of time riding with beginners and kids since then. When I see that someone is a lower skilled rider, and especially when they're impressionable (like kids), I don't even attempt little jumps or techy stuff that'd risk getting them over their heads and injured, because if they see me try it, they're more likely to try it (it's subtle peer pressure, but it's still pressure). So when I'm taking someone out that I want to ride with me in the future, my eye is always on having a fun ride that's not going to destroy their desire to ride with me again. If it's someone I know otherwise (and have a feeling for their personality), I might be willing to push their fitness and create memories of an epic slog, but I'm not going to push their skill beyond what they can handle into something that increases their chances of significant injury. Sure, I'll probably push them a little bit so they learn something, but that's different.

  130. #130
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    this thread needs more jumpz!!!!


    Why so much jumping?-677453d1330472326-whats-guy-hucking-kitty-img_3737.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    this thread needs more jumpz!!!!


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    that looks more like a huck

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    nope, just some jumpz


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    this thread needs more jumpz!!!!
    Terms and conditions may apply

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    Because it's fun. End of thread?

    I always sucked at jumps and never did them until a skills area was put in by my house. Now I'm I'm hooked and hitting stuff I would have never thought was possible for myself. I like it way more than XC riding which I now find boring.

    Getting comfortable with the bike leaving the ground is also a good skill to know as you ride more technical trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    That kind of rider doesn't fit the japanese stereotype at all.
    You've clearly never been snowboarding with a 20-odd year old Japanese, those kids are bloody indestructible.

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    I grew up riding bmx... building all sorts of jumps from dirt to wood, quarterpipes, pallet ramps, you name it, with my brothers in the back yard. I haven't been on a bmx bike in 10+ years but now that I've gotten into mtb I actually don't have much of a desire to 'jump' things anymore. Anyone else feel this way? Like been there, done that as a teenager, and mtn biking, in my opinion, no matter how gnar will never be as cool as an FBM video. These days, I like the variety of terrain, enjoying the landscape, and would rather channel 'jumping' into working on endurance for longer distance. I think a lot of the 'skills' people always talk about working on pertain to people with deep wallets who get into biking later on. If you haven't jumped a sketchy pallet ramp on a cobbled together bmx bike as a teenager, I feel like it's way harder to work on later on but still have to prove yourself amongst peers (and the learning curve is steeper) - but if you developed this earlier those 'skills' are somewhat innate at this point.

    What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping, even myself, as I'm comfortable knowing I probably could have gone bigger years ago!

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by loren90 View Post
    ...What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping...
    too bad you're all caught up in it everywhere else...


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    I'm in my early-mid 30's, and have been "into" mountain biking for about a year now.

    I have a background in "trail riding" dirt bikes (no motocross), and rode bikes a lot as a kid, like many here. I'm pretty comfortable in most fairly rough terrain, but I'm garbage in the air, as I had no practice with that in my past), enough so that I feel it is my "clear weak point" at the moment.

    I'm currently trying to work on my ability/comfort level in the air. Part of it is that it is enjoyable to do it correctly, and I like learning how to do new things. So I see why many trails feature jumps, or at least have optional ones.

    But at least half of the reason I am interested in learning to do them better, is I feel like my inability to do much other than dead-sailor off a jump, is holding back both my enjoyment of trails I currently ride, but also that many of the trails that look fun to me otherwise (mostly black trails, but some blues as well) have mandatory jumps/drops.

    I'd like to skill up enough in the jump/drop area, to be able to comfortably ride most "normal" back trails. I have no desire to ride Rampage, or anything else crazy. But I'd like to be able to ride the widest array of trails in my area, without feeling like my life is on the line.

    So while I'm not made of magic and rubber anymore like I was when I was 17, I'm also not into the "ceramic bone" structure timeframe of my life either though, so I'm trying to skill up while I can, so I can comfortably ride my way into retirement, without feeling confined to only green/blue trails.

    And, as for why trails have jumps? I mean, I'd wager its mostly the fun/achivement feeling you have when you do them correctly. I think some of why it exists though, is simply that it can, and is feasible.

    Compared to trail dirt biking, which covers huge distances, and the weight/power of the bikes is relatively destructive to a built dirt jump, mountain bikes can actually pretty easily sustain manmade features like jumps. IMO, this is because you really only see features like jumps/drops built into descending trails (less mileage covered/to improve/build features on), and also because once built, it will last a long time with very low maintenance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    too bad you're all caught up in it everywhere else...
    Was thinking the same.

    I don't know anyone that goes out and jumps their bike because they're trying to out-cool sponsored pros in a BMX video. People jump their bikes cuz it's fun. I feel bad for those who've lost touch with that already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I'm currently trying to work on my ability/comfort level in the air. Part of it is that it is enjoyable to do it correctly, and I like learning how to do new things. So I see why many trails feature jumps, or at least have optional ones.
    I'm similar, almost 40 and never really jumped after riding my bike for about 12 years. Now I can ride some advanced jumps lines with some pretty good drops and doubles. What helped me a lot was switching to flat pedals. And starting small, I mean real small where you barely catch air. But keep sessioning until you are super comfortable with the jump. Then work your way to a slightly bigger jump and do the same. Practice enough and you'll get pretty comfortable catching air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    cuz it's fun
    exactly. it's why anybody does anything...


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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Was thinking the same.

    I don't know anyone that goes out and jumps their bike because they're trying to out-cool sponsored pros in a BMX video. People jump their bikes cuz it's fun. I feel bad for those who've lost touch with that already.
    Eh, more of the vibe I guess? - like only riding certain trails, as fast as possible, jumping as much as possible, mashing the brakes for dirt spraying, etc. Strava, go pro, capturing airs for instagram type crowd. Then they are the first ones to act weirdly judgmental for those of us who enjoy all types of riding, not just the Whistler-esque enduro stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love 'jumps' but the bro-ification, high five, yelling, cheering people on and hyping people up to 'send it' drive me nuts.

  143. #143
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    how does you professing only the opposite make you any different?


  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by loren90 View Post
    What gets me, though, that I hide a smirk a bit on the inside, is when riding with a past group of the shreddy, PNW enduro bro types on their fancy carbon enduro bikes, vs. my relatively modest steel hardtail, I can still bunnyhop way higher and pop off lips with more style (albeit with some restraint) - I have no urges to prove myself to anyone re jumping, even myself, as I'm comfortable knowing I probably could have gone bigger years ago!
    Quote Originally Posted by loren90 View Post
    Eh, more of the vibe I guess? - like only riding certain trails, as fast as possible, jumping as much as possible, mashing the brakes for dirt spraying, etc. Strava, go pro, capturing airs for instagram type crowd. Then they are the first ones to act weirdly judgmental for those of us who enjoy all types of riding, not just the Whistler-esque enduro stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love 'jumps' but the bro-ification, high five, yelling, cheering people on and hyping people up to 'send it' drive me nuts.
    Hey man, you're being pretty judgmental there.

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    Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.

    All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!

    Does anyone else feel this way or consider this when deciding where to go mountain-biking? Maybe there's a name for it like "organic mountain biking" or something...

    And second question: Do you know of any trailforks equivalent or online directory for skill parks? Whether global or local, mtb exclusive or not, it doesn't matter.

    Hey, Sam Pilgrim was in Tokyo recently and this video is just crazy!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC9u...WpL_2m&index=9
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    how does you professing only the opposite make you any different?
    Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:

    1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).

    2) It creates people taking unnecessary risk and injury. It's cool to eat shit when you're a teen, not so much as an adult - and I'm not sure why people need to push other adults (especially if they lack the basic skillset developed over time) to hit large obstacles leading to unnecessary injury. I've witnessed this happen, and I'm sure others on here have too.

    and 3) I think it also creates a slight barrier to new people wanting to get into mtn biking, but have the idea that all mtn bikers are like said Red bull-esque people I describe. I've talked to many people like this. A lot of the fun is just getting outside on a bike, and if you're new, the fact that you can peddle yourself up a small hill, and go down a trail even if it's easy. Not conquering all these steep jumps and features, and I think some new people feel a barrier to this when trying to go with friends/bike group who are at a higher level and don't care to go down 'easier' trails that lack all of their aerial maneuvering features.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.

    All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!

    Does anyone else feel this way or consider this when deciding where to go mountain-biking? Maybe there's a name for it like "organic mountain biking" or something...

    And second question: Do you know of any trailforks equivalent or online directory for skill parks? Whether global or local, mtb exclusive or not, it doesn't matter.
    AlbertHenry, you were earlier saying how where you live there aren't any legal mountain bike trails. How in the heck are you complaining about there being too many man-made features on mountain bike trails??? Why do you feel you get to rant about it? You haven't been mountain biking enough yet to be complaining.


    Quote Originally Posted by loren90 View Post
    Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:

    1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).

    2) It creates people taking unnecessary risk and injury. It's cool to eat shit when you're a teen, not so much as an adult - and I'm not sure why people need to push other adults (especially if they lack the basic skillset developed over time) to hit large obstacles leading to unnecessary injury. I've witnessed this happen, and I'm sure others on here have too.

    and 3) I think it also creates a slight barrier to new people wanting to get into mtn biking, but have the idea that all mtn bikers are like said Red bull-esque people I describe. I've talked to many people like this. A lot of the fun is just getting outside on a bike, and if you're new, the fact that you can peddle yourself up a small hill, and go down a trail even if it's easy. Not conquering all these steep jumps and features, and I think some new people feel a barrier to this when trying to go with friends/bike group who are at a higher level and don't care to go down 'easier' trails that lack all of their aerial maneuvering features.
    WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.

  148. #148
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    the only thing I consider when biking is if the trail is too wet to ride on and will get damaged. I then decide whether the content of the trail is at my level

    if I get on a trail, and find out parts are above my level, I will either walk/go around them, or, will try to hit them if they are within my developing skill set.

    to me, jumps, obstacles etc are just part of it. Doesn't matter if they are man-made or not, since really, anytime you ride a bike through the woods, it is a man made trail.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Something that bothers me a bit about jumps and brims and other mtb-specific man made features on trails is that they had to be built and have to be maintained. I'm aware now thanks to @oncLogan that they're sometimes concentrated into small segments for ease of maintenance or that they're built in mtb parks that need to increase the excitement of their trails so that's ok.

    All in all I have nothing against these features but they make it difficult to "escape" civilization. Like your hiking in the middle of nowhere and you see a cement structure-toilet. Lifts don't count in this rant, just in case. As for skill parks? Great! The more the better!
    Different strokes, man. I like lots of types of trails and certain kinds don't fit well in some areas. I live in a place with tons of public land and hundreds of miles of mtb trails accessible nearby. We have TONS of backcountry trails available with very little "built" features in the trails. The vast, vast majority of all trails (even the hiking trails) are on old logging roads, though. They HAVE to be maintained or they become a right mess, which we see now. This area is a legit temperate rain forest with occasional tropical storm impacts. The occasionally massive amounts of rain will annihilate a trail in short order. It doesn't matter if the trail is a narrow ribbon of backcountry singletrack or if it's a newer-gen trail with jumps built into it. They'll both get destroyed without maintenance.

    As for your "escape civilization" rant, it just depends. If you are in an urban environment with LOTS of people, land managers will sometimes want to give recreation experiences as a priority, and sometimes land managers will want to target solitude and escape experiences. True backcountry environments where you get away from civilization often require lots of cultivation, especially if the land in question is near places where people live. The places where I ride, sure, offer some backcountry experiences, but you're usually not as far away from civilization as you think you are. So we see a bit of a mix of riding options. There are certain areas closest to built environments that get massive visitation. On those trails, you're more likely to see built jumps and such. If you want a backcountry experience, you've gotta work for it. Oftentimes pretty hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.
    I dunno, I'd rather ride with people who are happy and encouraging of each other than with some curmudgeons who are standoffish and grumpy all the time. I've gone on rides where 50+yr old beginner rider women are high-fiving each other because they pedALed up a small hill or rode over a root for the first time. That's rad and I am stoked to do rides like that because I like seeing people have fun and feel like kids again.

    I'm very measured about the risks I'm willing to take. That's great for me, and if other riders want to take bigger risks by doing bigger jumps and going faster, that's great for them. I might ride with them (and I have) if they're a fun and welcoming group. I might not ride with them (and I've done this, too) if they don't accommodate other types of riders in their group well. By that, I'm mostly referring to how they accommodate slower riders, or those with less skill. There's room for all of us on the trail, and all I really care about is whether they're friendly, follow good trail etiquette, and treat the trails (and the people who maintain them) with respect.

    I REALLY don't care if riders like to jump more or less than I do (ride how you like), or if they like to high-five each other at the trailhead, or after sessioning something, or whatever. That's all pretty innocuous behavior, and I'm not going to piss on their parade if they're happy or excited about something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loren90 View Post
    Not the opposite, and not trying to be different. All I'm saying is:

    1) I was like that (but with bmx) up until I was like 17/18. The crowd I'm talking about is mid 20s to 30s, and at some point it's just annoying to be around (in my opinion).

    2) It creates people taking unnecessary risk and injury. It's cool to eat shit when you're a teen, not so much as an adult - and I'm not sure why people need to push other adults (especially if they lack the basic skillset developed over time) to hit large obstacles leading to unnecessary injury. I've witnessed this happen, and I'm sure others on here have too.

    LOL! Most of the guys I ride with are in their 40-50-60s and do all the same shit. And the guys that do the most 'regular' XC style riding are also the same guys that hit the biggest jumps, including guys well into their 50's that send it big on pro lines and regularly podium at regional DH and Enduro events.

    Maybe you just aged out early? Have you discovered the joys of long solo gravel-grinds or bikepack missions yet? Sounds like that might be more to your taste.
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8edgMTBMXer View Post
    Doesn't matter if they are man-made or not, since really, anytime you ride a bike through the woods, it is a man made trail.
    all you naysayers, think about that one for a minute...


    (insert mind blown gif here)


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    Could be a deer path.

  153. #153
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    but it isn't..


  154. #154
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    On closing day, I was hucking and jumping every "Pro Line" at Mammoth. Earlier this week, I was riding my gravel bike on smooth XC trails in the mountains.

    There isn't a wrong way to ride your bike. Just STFU and ride YOUR bike.

    If you don't want to jump, don't follow me. If you don't want to suffer on climbs, don't follow me. Actually, just don't follow me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    There isn't a wrong way to ride your bike. Just STFU and ride YOUR bike.

    Yup, that.
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    It's unfortunate that people having fun would really bother someone that much. Definitely going to want to steer clear of my riding crew as high fives and stoke is pretty much guaranteed.

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    My riding buddies and I are usually quite chill.

    That said, if someone has progressed to a feature they've not ridden before, we'll get a bit of "stoke on", up to, and sometimes including high fives, or saying things like "nice work, you did it man".

    I can kind of understand how someone could be annoyed at frequent/over the top stuff like that, especially if other actions are damaging the trail system, or they're otherwise being rude/discourteous. But, personally, assuming "they" are being otherwise good humans, I'm not bugged at all by people being excited about doing something well.

    The first time I cleared a true gap jump, I actually let out a yell ("WOOO!") of excitement/relief, that I honestly don't know if I could have contained. So I try to be understanding of similar "outbursts" from others as well. And actually, if someone does something like that near me, I'll often tell the "Congratulations" or "well done!" as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    The first time I cleared a true gap jump, I actually let out a yell ("WOOO!") of excitement/relief, that I honestly don't know if I could have contained. So I try to be understanding of similar "outbursts" from others as well. And actually, if someone does something like that near me, I'll often tell the "Congratulations" or "well done!" as well.
    Dammit, man, didn't you know you're supposed to be completely straightlaced when you're riding bikes? I mean, come on, there's no way at all you can have fun or achieve a sense of accomplishment after working hard at something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Dammit, man, didn't you know you're supposed to be completely straightlaced when you're riding bikes? I mean, come on, there's no way at all you can have fun or achieve a sense of accomplishment after working hard at something.
    Crap.

    It wasn't on the signs at the trailhead, how could I have known!

    If I promise to work on that in the future, can I keep riding? If not, I'll show myself out...

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Crap.

    It wasn't on the signs at the trailhead, how could I have known!

    If I promise to work on that in the future, can I keep riding? If not, I'll show myself out...
    Next time when your buddy does something that makes you feel excited or happy, there's no need to raise your voice. Why not send a nice card instead?

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    When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by karthur View Post
    When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!
    Yeah, that's the spirit! Errr, I mean, no. Nevermind. Forget I said that or even acknowledged your presence. I'll just go meditate for a while. Alone, in silence.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Next time when your buddy does something that makes you feel excited or happy, there's no need to raise your voice. Why not send a nice card instead?
    In all seriousness though, this comment cracked me up, nice work!

    The thought of carrying around a candle, some parchment, and a crest/mark to make a proper "seal" of melted wax, to write a proper thank you note mid ride, gave me a good chuckle.

    Maybe I'll do that sometime if my buddies and I ride on April 1st, or Halloween, or something like that. Hauling the supplies along would be worth the laughs.

    Something like this...

    "Dear RaginTxn <one of my riding buddies paid to have this engraved on his grips, so its his preferred handle>

    It has come to my attention that you have increased your skill level, and overmatched a trail feature that you had hitherto failed to conquer.

    For this moment, I send my sincerest congratulations.

    "Congratulations"

    May your achievement be immortalized in song, dance, and potentially... youtube (if anyone got the footage).

    Yours truely,

    ocnLogan"

    And, I do agree that "general loudness" isn't always appreciated (at least personally) when out in the woods. But I feel that most of the time I have observed it around here, its just good natured excitement for doing something they (or I) haven't done before. So when its that kind of noise, it doesn't bother me (at least when biking... if its after dark and I'm camping/backpacking... you bet it would bother me).

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    Quote Originally Posted by karthur View Post
    When MTBing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!
    Now that would be great, especially no high-fives!

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    Quote Originally Posted by karthur View Post
    when mtbing keep you head down and your mouth shut! There will be no enjoyment here!
    No soup for you!!

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    if its after dark and I'm camping/backpacking... you bet it would bother me).
    Mental note: don't go hit jump lines after dark where people have set up their tents. I don't think that'll be a problem.

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    Why so much jumping?

    I donít mind the odd exclamation of pleasure, or two. Whatever.

    But, I was riding recently and due to some weird acoustics (valley), I could hear some dude (turned out to be a group of three) hooting and hollering every 15-20 seconds. It got to be a bit much. I couldnít decide if I wanted to press a bit harder and get by them sooner, or just stop and let them get far enough in front to not hear them anymore. I opted on the former and ended up scaring the shit out of them when I rang my bell to pass. Oddly enough, they stopped after I said hello and bid them good day.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    AlbertHenry, you were earlier saying how where you live there aren't any legal mountain bike trails. How in the heck are you complaining about there being too many man-made features on mountain bike trails??? Why do you feel you get to rant about it? You haven't been mountain biking enough yet to be complaining.

    WTH? You have a beef with guys who high-five and encourage each other to try more challenging terrain? Is anyone forcing you to ride with people you don't like to ride with? If you're bothered by the fact that people like that exist then the problem is within you, not them. You're being closed-minded as hell.
    Yeah, it doesn't make sense. You see, I was absolutely comfortable with knowing that I was not going to be intentionally lifting any wheels from the ground. Then, I started watching videos and participating in this forum and got encouraged to at least try a little. Then, I realized that I don't have the trails, skill parks, equipment, peers, coach and fearlessness that it takes. So I am kind of upset now, you see.

    The man-made trails versus natural trails is another topic. I understand now thanks to @harold that all trails have to be maintained so OK. That's all right. I just personally prefer that the trail were as natural as possible. And I shouldn't have edited out the word rant when I shortened the post. It was a bit longer and had some dark humor.

    I do want to clarify that I while I' not the most affable person alive, unless I'm with ppl of my nationality, I do not discourage others to have fun. I am, however, feeling down and yes, envious bcz others live so much nearer to so much more nature and trails. And tragically I can't just move.

    And finally, my forks are too damaged to take to the mountain and I've been waiting a month and a half for the new forks to arrive so that's adding to the frustration. Once I get those forks you probably won't be hearing much from me on this forum anymore...

    Another thought I had was that if it's true that there's QUOTE: [a] slight barrier to new people wanting to get into mtn biking, but have the idea that all mtn bikers are like said Red bull-esque people I describe. I've talked to many people like this. A lot of the fun is just getting outside on a bike, and if you're new, the fact that you can peddle yourself up a small hill, and go down a trail even if it's easy. Not conquering all these steep jumps and features, and I think some new people feel a barrier to this when trying to go with friends/bike group who are at a higher level and don't care to go down 'easier' trails that lack all of their aerial maneuvering features.

    ...then there's an easy fix for that inspired from those stickers newly licensed drivers have to use. I Japan they look like this:
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    As wikipedia puts it:
    [It] is a green and yellow V-shaped symbol that new drivers in Japan must display on their cars for one year after they obtain a standard driver's license. Drivers who consider themselves beginners may continue to display the sign, even after the period of a year.[1] Like the orange and yellow "fukushi mark" or "koreisha mark" that denotes elderly drivers, the shoshinsha mark is designed to warn other drivers that the marked driver is not very skilled, either due to inexperience or old age.[2]

    Trail parks, bike manufactures, bicycle shops, etc can agree to encourage the use of this "kind of" symbol (purely voluntarily) for new mountain-bikers. In this case not only to warn others, but for others not to put pressure on them and to coach them if they see fit. They can bee small stickers to put on your helmet, handlebars (to remind yourself that you're a beginner), on the headtube, etc. Bike parks can offer them for free while they promote it and then perhaps sell it. Bike manufactures can include it with the new bikes and if the bike is not intended to a newbie, it would be easier for the costumer to persuade someone else to join the sport by showing them this concept exists in the sport. Even the LBS can include them for free with the purchase of a new bike or otherwise sell them. It's a win-win for everyone.

  169. #169
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    We can tell when someone is a beginner. No sticker needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    ...but for others not to put pressure on them and to coach them if they see fit.
    Not only does it become pretty clear pretty quickly who the beginners are, it's just bad form to put pressure on ANYONE you don't know. It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.

    So, if you encounter riders you don't know, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you strike up a mutually enjoyable conversation and decide you're at least sorta okay with each other, then maybe you can move on to other things. Me, I think putting actual labels on people is bad precedent to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Not only does it become pretty clear pretty quickly who the beginners are, it's just bad form to put pressure on ANYONE you don't know. It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.

    So, if you encounter riders you don't know, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you strike up a mutually enjoyable conversation and decide you're at least sorta okay with each other, then maybe you can move on to other things. Me, I think putting actual labels on people is bad precedent to follow.
    Look, I don't want to start a debate but just a few remarks:
    1) When does encouragement become pressure? And not everyone is sensible enough to realize that just holding a camera is a form of pressure. If we used these stickers the most mature guy in the group can keep things good or the beginner remind himself of his limitations.

    2) And this one is important: What if you encounter three kids sessioning two consecutive 1 to 2 foot drops with their weight on the saddle? We know that's dangerous. Do you smile, wave and go your merry own way? Or you see a dude with his saddle pointing downwards ready to hit a downhill slope? In your defense I noted you used the word "generally".

    3) And I totally thought of that labeling part. But the law requires these labels for new drivers, the military uses them, and in the sport called karate, participants are "labelled" with different colored belts. I know this isn't an such an institutionalized sport but mountain-bikers can adopt the logo of the trail difficulty they can clean instead for all I care. But I'm not advocating for these stickers especially since I've never been among mountain-bikers to begin with. I'm just sharing this idea.

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    Lol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It is also generally bad form to provide unsolicited instruction to people you don't know.
    I dunno, I tend to give obviously novice riders a few pointers at our pumptrack pretty regularly. Not something that seems to happen on the trails though.
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    i give people advice all the time, it's upon them to listen to it or not. i'm not offended if they don't. i also encourage others to try to do something i know they can do that they think they can't. be it a jump, drop, steep tech chute or anything else that unnecessarily intimidates them. they can also listen or not. sure there have been some crashes, but mostly it's all smiles. nobody wants anyone to get hurt, i'm out there to have fun and want everyone else to have fun too...


  175. #175
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    Imma slap noob stickers on everyone who needs it.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertHenry View Post
    Look, I don't want to start a debate but just a few remarks:
    1) When does encouragement become pressure? And not everyone is sensible enough to realize that just holding a camera is a form of pressure. If we used these stickers the most mature guy in the group can keep things good or the beginner remind himself of his limitations.

    2) And this one is important: What if you encounter three kids sessioning two consecutive 1 to 2 foot drops with their weight on the saddle? We know that's dangerous. Do you smile, wave and go your merry own way? Or you see a dude with his saddle pointing downwards ready to hit a downhill slope? In your defense I noted you used the word "generally".

    3) And I totally thought of that labeling part. But the law requires these labels for new drivers, the military uses them, and in the sport called karate, participants are "labelled" with different colored belts. I know this isn't an such an institutionalized sport but mountain-bikers can adopt the logo of the trail difficulty they can clean instead for all I care. But I'm not advocating for these stickers especially since I've never been among mountain-bikers to begin with. I'm just sharing this idea.
    Let's just call it Interacting With Others 101. I'm not even being mountain bike specific at this point.

    In case 1, if you don't know the other rider, be nice, say hi, and continue on your merry way. If you begin to have additional conversations about other things, then the scope of the conversations and the comments you make to each other can change. It's very creeper to interject encouragement to people out of the blue. I see people do this, and it's very weird.

    In case 2, you STFU unless there's a clear and present serious safety problem. People are allowed to make their own mistakes. The stuff you mention ranks to me as minor mistakes people are allowed to make for themselves, and not clear and present safety problems.

    For the last one, just no.

  177. #177
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    Have you seen guys at the gym giving unsolicited advice to others? It's kind of intrusive. I guess with biking at depends on the scenario, context, and delivery but in general I only give advice if someone seems to be asking me.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I dunno, I tend to give obviously novice riders a few pointers at our pumptrack pretty regularly. Not something that seems to happen on the trails though.
    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    i give people advice all the time, it's upon them to listen to it or not. i'm not offended if they don't. i also encourage others to try to do something i know they can do that they think they can't. be it a jump, drop, steep tech chute or anything else that unnecessarily intimidates them. they can also listen or not. sure there have been some crashes, but mostly it's all smiles. nobody wants anyone to get hurt, i'm out there to have fun and want everyone else to have fun too...
    I've lost count of the times I've seen people give horrible advice unsolicited. Sometimes it's been given to me. The absolute worst I've seen was one day when I was out doing a long ride with my wife. She was pretty beat and working hard to make the last push to the end of the ride. Any experienced rider knows how sloppy we can all be with our most basic skills when we get tired. Some guy rode up and thought he was being helpful by giving my wife some advice on her riding. There was no conversation prior to it. Just some random guy on the trail who saw my wife riding for maybe 30sec before he opened his mouth. Totally uncalled for, though. She did not need a reminder that she was exhausted and riding sloppy. She wasn't crashing or hurting herself.

    Talking to others when you're at the pumptrack or when you're stopped on the trail sessioning something together is a very different scenario than the one where some random dude observed 30sec of someone else's multi-hour ride and thought that saying anything more than "hello" or "mind if I pass?" was a good idea. it's also VERY different if you're giving advice to people you know.

    Maybe I'm more sensitive to this than others because I've been called out for doing it in the past. But it's not just me, either, and it's not just with bikes. I'm not saying "don't ever" do these things. I'm saying to be sensitive to situations where saying something is very much unwelcome.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Have you seen guys at the gym giving unsolicited advice to others? It's kind of intrusive. I guess with biking at depends on the scenario, context, and delivery but in general I only give advice if someone seems to be asking me.
    Exactly this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Talking to others when you're at the pumptrack or when you're stopped on the trail sessioning something together is a very different scenario than the one where some random dude observed 30sec of someone else's multi-hour ride and thought that saying anything more than "hello" or "mind if I pass?" was a good idea. it's also VERY different if you're giving advice to people you know.

    Maybe I'm more sensitive to this than others because I've been called out for doing it in the past. But it's not just me, either, and it's not just with bikes. I'm not saying "don't ever" do these things. I'm saying to be sensitive to situations where saying something is very much unwelcome.
    Yup, agreed.

    I've gotten lots of great unsolicited advice from strangers in DJ/PT/park situations, mainly from kids that notice me flailing at attempting something over and over. They'll come over and give a general sort of 'hey, try it this way' and many times it's paid off for me. Of course, it pays off to be sure it's something they can actually do themselves first.
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  181. #181
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    thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...


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    Didn't the OP say they were pretty new at riding mountain bikes. I am not sure if you are newer you should be giving random strangers advice. Also for someone who lives where there is no mountain biking, there sure seem to be a lot of mountain bikers around...
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...
    Let's test it: You should shut your mouth. Nobody cares for your opinion.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    Didn't the OP say they were pretty new at riding mountain bikes. I am not sure if you are newer you should be giving random strangers advice. Also for someone who lives where there is no mountain biking, there sure seem to be a lot of mountain bikers around...
    Yep on both counts.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    In all seriousness though, this comment cracked me up, nice work!

    The thought of carrying around a candle, some parchment, and a crest/mark to make a proper "seal" of melted wax, to write a proper thank you note mid ride, gave me a good chuckle.

    Maybe I'll do that sometime if my buddies and I ride on April 1st, or Halloween, or something like that. Hauling the supplies along would be worth the laughs.

    .
    oooh...that would all fit nicely in a Relevate gas tank bag....
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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    thankfully my skin is thick enough to not care if someone is giving me advice i don't need...
    was sort of thinking this as well...

    and I don't mind unsolicited advice either...being a golfer, that happens A LOT on the course - probably more than any other place I can think of. You get used to just smiling and nodding.
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Let's test it: You should shut your mouth. Nobody cares for your opinion.
    solid advice. let's high five bro...


  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    solid advice. let's high five bro...
    Okay good job. Up high.

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    So, I was thinking about this a bit more.

    Labeling riders is an interesting idea... but I think its one that would be incredibly hard to pull off (enforcement/etc). As basically you're talking about a biking license test, and/or different skill level licenses.

    Instead, mountain biking has done the reverse. We label the trails by difficulty/description. So people have to "police" themselves, and choose trails that are appropriate to their skill level.

    If they decide to go down a freeride/jump trail that is way above their skill level, they may crash and get hurt (which is unfortunate/sad), but there really isn't much you can do about it, imo, without investing considerably more resources into enforcing stuff.

    Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.
    That's the idea behind the "squirrel catcher" at the entrance to very hard trails. If you can't ride the opening feature then you should turn around right then and there.

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Okay good job. Up high.
    Hey -- pipe the f'k down, you two! I'm trying to enjoy the quiet serenity of this thread. Serious business happening here.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Hey -- pipe the f'k down, you two! I'm trying to enjoy the quiet serenity of this thread. Serious business happening here.
    Yewwwwwww!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That's the idea behind the "squirrel catcher" at the entrance to very hard trails. If you can't ride the opening feature then you should turn around right then and there.
    Oh, good point. I hadn't even thought about/remembered that. Must be because I am still very much an intermediate rider, and don't inspect the entrances to most black/double black trails yet.

    Also, didn't know they were called that in mountain biking. In offroading (jeeps/4x4's/etc) we called them "gatekeepers", but they served the same exact purpose.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    So, I was thinking about this a bit more.

    Labeling riders is an interesting idea... but I think its one that would be incredibly hard to pull off (enforcement/etc). As basically you're talking about a biking license test, and/or different skill level licenses.

    Instead, mountain biking has done the reverse. We label the trails by difficulty/description. So people have to "police" themselves, and choose trails that are appropriate to their skill level.

    If they decide to go down a freeride/jump trail that is way above their skill level, they may crash and get hurt (which is unfortunate/sad), but there really isn't much you can do about it, imo, without investing considerably more resources into enforcing stuff.

    Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.
    good points...the trails/activity will force people to live within their own reality in a way. I.E. : I would like to THINK that I can ride a trail with moderate jumps and features, but when it comes down to doing it, reality and common sense reminds me that I am just an old guy falling off of the bike in the woods, and I then learn to live in that world.

    The other thing I think it does is it forces those who want to got to the next level to develop the skills to do it. To become honest.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.
    I know a couple spots where they do something like this (Slopestyle course at Highland and the 'pro' jump trail at Thunder).
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I know a couple spots where they do something like this (Slopestyle course at Highland and the 'pro' jump trail at Thunder).
    Do they have an exam where they watch you before you get a license or something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Oh, good point. I hadn't even thought about/remembered that. Must be because I am still very much an intermediate rider, and don't inspect the entrances to most black/double black trails yet.

    Also, didn't know they were called that in mountain biking. In offroading (jeeps/4x4's/etc) we called them "gatekeepers", but they served the same exact purpose.
    The folks I know usually call them "Qualifiers" or "Filters" but the thing is that they often only exist on fairly recently built trails where mtb riding is at least part of the intent of the trail, if not the major intent. I've been on quite a few trails where the entrance looks pretty innocuous but the "oh shit" mandatory insanity spot occurs halfway through or maybe not until you're even deeper into the trail.

    I ended up on one double black trail that I didn't know was double black because of crappy maps and zero signage on the ground even for the easier stuff, and the entrance didn't look like anything special. It wasn't until I was halfway down it and committed to the route that I found the stuff that was over my head and forced me to walk. Ride enough places and it'll happen eventually, and that's why filters/qualifiers/squirrel catchers/gatekeepers exist.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Maybe bike parks could do something similar, on some of the truly difficult trails, but that would still require something like a "skill license" to be issued, which is a heck of a lot more overhead/oversight than I think could be easily managed by a single park.
    A number of bike parks are going all-in on hiring teams of coaches so they can work on skills with riders. Makes sense that for certain stuff they'd make a training requirement or skills test required in order to ride the hardest of the hard stuff. But bike parks are a very different environment than public trails at your local parks. Most days I go out riding and I don't see a single employee of the land management agency. In all honesty, I rode all season and I saw ONE employee out in the woods, a law enforcement ranger that was checking out to see if motos had been poaching gated roads and trails.

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    The folks I know usually call them "Qualifiers" or "Filters" but the thing is that they often only exist on fairly recently built trails where mtb riding is at least part of the intent of the trail, if not the major intent.
    I believe we were talking specifically about bike parks, so it would be a trail dedicated to bikes. I can't recall seeing a squirrel catcher on a public trail out west. Are they common out in your neck of the woods?

    Edit: I just thought of one. Unemployment Line at Galbraith outside of Bellingham, WA has a wood bridge drop-in to start things off. I think I recall seeing a ride-around though.

    Why so much jumping?-gp2ztfpjj6qniguatiay-2.jpg

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    Now that I think about it, the only place I've seen that has "gatekeeper" obstacles near me is Duthie hill. HLC line in particular has a clearly marked entry drop (that is pretty large... I think its one of the largest drops in the park), and a big sign saying not to go around it.

    A while back there was a ride-around in place, but they recently closed it off, likely to keep people from getting in trouble further down the trail.

    And its interesting to see that some of the bike parks/lift access areas are investing more in skill coaches. I've only been to Stevens Pass once, and don't recall seeing any coaches, but perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough. A skills pass/license could be useful for some of the truly dangerous thing.

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