Results 1 to 96 of 96
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    11

    LBS tried to put me on a rockhopper?

    Went to local shop guy that has worked there for 8 years but doesnt ride said I should get a specialized rockhopper hardtail it was 745 and I have seen all these deals on the net with better components or at least forks and brakes it had a Dart 2 fork and disc brakes Iam wanting to get a good bike for 700-900 Hardtail is what I am getting I am really leaning toward a 29er on bikesdirect for Windsor cliff 29er pro any suggestions?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr. DiCenso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    60
    use sentences!

  3. #3
    I am a pathetic rider...
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    644
    what he said, seriously, I can't tell what you are talking about. And we need more info. Type of riding you are going to be doing? body weight? height? Any previous riding experience? The rockhopper is a solid bike, albeit a little over priced. from the way you were talking though I think you will need all the help you can get in an LBS, so buy something from them, not online.
    Save the Earth, Ride a Cyclist

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,790
    Try to find one with punctuation. If you don't know what that is, try google.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    11
    I apologize for the poor grammer and lack of punctuation! I do alot of texting so my writing is jumbled and not complete most of the time. What I was trying to say is that I am really trying to find a decent bike at a good price with decent components. I went to my LBS and spoke the their salesman and he tried to get me to purchase a 19" rockhopper specialized. I am overweight and new to MBR but I truly enjoy it and I am hooked. I am mechanically inclined but not gramitically so I can handle the upkeep of a bike I believe. So should I by this bike although a little over priced or go with the 29er I located on bikesdirect any help would be appreciated Thanks gentleman cheers.....

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    To summarize, I believe you want to compare a Rockhopper Comp Disc with a Windsor Cliff 29er Pro.

    Without doing a complete part-by-part analysis, I will say the Windsor will probably have better parts with the sole exception of the frame, which is an assumption on my part since I am biased towards Specialized.

    Ok, now that you know the parts are better on the Windsor, let me ask you this question:

    How can you tell the correct length of the rear derailleur cable housing?

    Now this seems like a very simple question, but if you can't answer it, your shifting will not be professional standard. BTW, the answer is the housing should extend from the rear derailleur about an inch before bending.

    You see, there are probably 50 details exactly like that one which shops will handle. Some of them is quite easy to figure out, some of them if you screw up, you destroy your bike (like "how to adjust the low-limit derailleur stop" or "does my bottom bracket shell needs to be tapped").

    Bikes Direct recommends you bring your bike to a professional shop, which adds another $60-80 to the cost of the bike. After you ride your bike a month, you will need to bring it back to the shop for minor adjustments, another $60-80, then every 6 months after that.

    When buying a bike from a dealer, you have more of a guarantee of a perfect assembled and adjusted bike, and you get the advice and friendship of the staff there.

    When you buy a bike online, all you get is a bike and a deal.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    11
    Thank you for your reply. I think your right I dont have a clue maybe I will look for a shop that will make me feel a little more comfortable dealing with them. Does anyone know of a good shop around Austin Tx?

  8. #8
    I am a pathetic rider...
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    644
    try the regional forums.
    Save the Earth, Ride a Cyclist

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,790
    When you do get a new bike, Park Tool's site has very good instructions for tuning and repairs.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    37
    I borrowed this maintenance and repair book from my local library and found it very detailed and easy to follow. It would be a good resource for a beginner (like myself). If you decide to do some of your own work, check out your library or buy this book (its only $15).

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Bikes Direct recommends you bring your bike to a professional shop, which adds another $60-80 to the cost of the bike. After you ride your bike a month, you will need to bring it back to the shop for minor adjustments, another $60-80, then every 6 months after that.

    When buying a bike from a dealer, you have more of a guarantee of a perfect assembled and adjusted bike, and you get the advice and friendship of the staff there.

    When you buy a bike online, all you get is a bike and a deal.
    I know...I'm beating a dead horse here, but...

    Why is that when buying bikes online, folks come out of the wood-work adding all these phantom costs of ownership? Your scenario presents a conservative cost of about $240 all the way to $320 for the first year(ish) and $120 to $160 / year after that to keep a bike in riding tune? I built an online bike from frame up and my bike works great, and I don't find myself needing to tinker with it over and over.

    He said he was mechanically inclined...and it's *not* the space shuttle. All of those "details" are exactly what this board is for. Besides, would it not be possible to buy a service contract from an LBS and develop a relationship with them through parts and service? Of course it is.

    My highly recommended LBS in OKC (I bought a GF Big Sur from them) just could not tune a bike to my liking. Why? Because I was just one more bike that they needed to tune...no special friendship or consideration...business is business. When I decided that I was going to start tuning the bike myself for my specific desire, I hit the internet and learned a ton, bought a basic bike-specific tool kit and had at it. I can tune my bikes exactly how I like, test ride and fine-tune if needed.

    Sorry, I guess I just don't totally buy into the panacea of the LBS especially if your intent is to do your own work anyway.

    To the OP: IMHO spend your money where you perceive the most value can be had...

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    11
    thanks everyone for your replies I am still on the fence. Myself only having limited resources to spend 700-900 on a bike I still want to get the best bike for the money Internet seems to have it without the "middle man". Still I am just a new fish in this pond just trying to get the tools to eat with.

  13. #13
    Bearded highlighter
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    242
    you can get the rockhopper as a 29er its around the same price

  14. #14
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,976
    Compare the Windsor to the Fuji Tahoe 29er Pro because they are 95% the same bike. In fact, the Windsor even comes with its parts kit in a Fuji box. The only difference is the Windsor frame does not have the "power diamond" downtube. Its not a low-end frame, its actually quite well built and reasonable weight.

    Take some of that money you save and buy a bicycle tool set and a good manual (I recommend Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance) and you should have no problem if your reasonably mechanically inclined.

  15. #15
    Rod
    Rod is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    5,184
    It all depends on your lbs. If they're good guys it would be worth buying the bike from them just to establish a relationship. If you don't get a good feeling then I would do business at another shop if possible or buy it online. You can usually tell the difference in the shops by asking a few questions and comparing their responses. Some shops actually ride and enjoy their customers and the others view it as a business at all times. By this I mean you won't get shop discounts on parts you buy after you've done business with them for 2 years, know you by name, and you've spent a fortune with them. After a few bad experiences with my shop I now only consult them when I absolutely need to. If you can find a good shop it's well worth it though.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Konish
    I know...I'm beating a dead horse here, but...

    Why is that when buying bikes online, folks come out of the wood-work adding all these phantom costs of ownership? Your scenario presents a conservative cost of about $240 all the way to $320 for the first year(ish) and $120 to $160 / year after that to keep a bike in riding tune? I built an online bike from frame up and my bike works great, and I don't find myself needing to tinker with it over and over.

    He said he was mechanically inclined...and it's *not* the space shuttle. All of those "details" are exactly what this board is for. Besides, would it not be possible to buy a service contract from an LBS and develop a relationship with them through parts and service? Of course it is.

    My highly recommended LBS in OKC (I bought a GF Big Sur from them) just could not tune a bike to my liking. Why? Because I was just one more bike that they needed to tune...no special friendship or consideration...business is business. When I decided that I was going to start tuning the bike myself for my specific desire, I hit the internet and learned a ton, bought a basic bike-specific tool kit and had at it. I can tune my bikes exactly how I like, test ride and fine-tune if needed.

    Sorry, I guess I just don't totally buy into the panacea of the LBS especially if your intent is to do your own work anyway.

    To the OP: IMHO spend your money where you perceive the most value can be had...
    Frankly, this does not apply to every one. A lot of people service their own bikes without assistance of a bike shop.

    However, your opinion, while valid, is simply your own. My opinion is the hundreds of bikes I have sold and serviced. And I will say majority of them go well. But I focus on the ones that needed more than just a little aftermarket service.

    If this person is has decent mechanical skills and can invest some time in looking over repair manuals, he should be able to take care of most of the problems. But I have seen issues which had to be handled by a professional, which a Specialized dealer would be glad to take of but I doubt Bikes Direct will do.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Frankly, this does not apply to every one. A lot of people service their own bikes without assistance of a bike shop.

    However, your opinion, while valid, is simply your own. My opinion is the hundreds of bikes I have sold and serviced. And I will say majority of them go well. But I focus on the ones that needed more than just a little aftermarket service.

    If this person is has decent mechanical skills and can invest some time in looking over repair manuals, he should be able to take care of most of the problems. But I have seen issues which had to be handled by a professional, which a Specialized dealer would be glad to take of but I doubt Bikes Direct will do.
    I'm sorry, but I'm not following you...exactly *what* does not apply to everyone?

    Umm, I don't think I stated anything other than it was my opinion. So yes, it is clearly my opinion. I don't see how your opinion of BD is any more valid since it seems as though you haven't actually had to deal with them and yet you assume the worst.

    Also, you present a common argument based solely on your *personal* experience selling and building bikes (which I'm guessing that the majority of which are the brands your store carries). Your anecdotal experience while real, is simply that, anecdotal.

    I have not purchased a bike through BD, so I'm no "fanboy", but I have purchased from another online retailer and was happy with the transaction...as are many others.

    Again, I'm not here to argue one way or the other, but it always just seems like the LBS fans pull the 'ol scare tactic "boy-good-luck-with-that-heap-that'll-end-up-costing-you-MUCH-more-than-if-you-just-bought-from-an-LBS-because-everyone-just-knows-that-online-bike-retailers-suck" routine.

    Again, I say assign value to what is most important to the buyer and move in that direction, and accept the ups and downs that come along with either decision.

  18. #18
    Old man on a bike
    Reputation: Bikinfoolferlife's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewmander
    I borrowed this maintenance and repair book from my local library and found it very detailed and easy to follow. It would be a good resource for a beginner (like myself). If you decide to do some of your own work, check out your library or buy this book (its only $15).
    There's better, try Zinn's Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance if you're going to buy one IMHO; parktool.com on line is quite good as well. Just curious, do you return it to the library with greasy fingerprints after working on your bike?
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cyrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    735
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. DiCenso
    use sentences!
    Not everyones first language is english. The sooner you learn that, the better you'll be in the world.
    "Solution to two of the world's problems: Feed the homeless to the hungry."

  20. #20
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,211
    When you buy a bike online, it probably comes assembled so that you do not need any of the expensive tools to put it together: especially BB/cranks and headset/fork installed.

    On the other hand...
    The Rockhopper is a decent bike and it is upgradable: you can replace parts when you break them, or find that they are not good enough.

    Buying from a LBS has advantages: you can make sure the bike fits and handles, before you spend your money. Fit and handling are the important things in a bike, followed by durability and reliability.

    Test ride every single suitable bike you can find locally ...and a few that are above your price range too, for reference.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    96
    Since you said you were new to the sport, do you have all the required gear? Helmet being #1, Gloves being nice to necessary depending on how much you are going to ride,basic kit to change a tube, spare tube, patch kit, pump, etc. I am sure there is a thread here that outlines the basic kit. Point being that you can try the helmet on in a LBS as you can with the gloves...can be a crapshoot buying these online. If you buy the bike at a LBS, many times they will do a deep discount on the accessories, also they would fit the bike to you, which is an often overlooked, but critical item in cycling enjoyment. Check too for last years model, possibly even bigger discounts to be had. just my 2 cents, but the "package" may be cheaper in a LBS and you can likely be riding in a day or so of pulling the trigger.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    573
    Quote Originally Posted by loydfl
    Check too for last years model, possibly even bigger discounts to be had.
    +1 for the '08 models. The LBS here is selling '08 Rockhopper Comp discs for $700. It has better components than the Rockhopper you've looked at (mainly, the fork being a Recon instead of a Dart) and is cheaper. Right now, shops are discounting bikes somewhere around 10%-20%, depending on how well the bikes are moving. This is good, especially when considering dealers are raising prices on the '09 models an average of 15%, or are downgrading the components to keep the price the same (the '09 RH comp disc now has a Dart fork).

  23. #23
    Probably drunk right now
    Reputation: Ken in KC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,749

    Is it really hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konish
    I'm sorry, but I'm not following you...exactly *what* does not apply to everyone?

    Umm, I don't think I stated anything other than it was my opinion. So yes, it is clearly my opinion. I don't see how your opinion of BD is any more valid since it seems as though you haven't actually had to deal with them and yet you assume the worst.

    Also, you present a common argument based solely on your *personal* experience selling and building bikes (which I'm guessing that the majority of which are the brands your store carries). Your anecdotal experience while real, is simply that, anecdotal.

    I have not purchased a bike through BD, so I'm no "fanboy", but I have purchased from another online retailer and was happy with the transaction...as are many others.

    Again, I'm not here to argue one way or the other, but it always just seems like the LBS fans pull the 'ol scare tactic "boy-good-luck-with-that-heap-that'll-end-up-costing-you-MUCH-more-than-if-you-just-bought-from-an-LBS-because-everyone-just-knows-that-online-bike-retailers-suck" routine.

    Again, I say assign value to what is most important to the buyer and move in that direction, and accept the ups and downs that come along with either decision.

    He's saying that some people can manage a build themselves and some people don't know how to do it and have to add additional cost to their online bike purchase.

    This is especially the case in a new mountain biker who either has to have a LBS build the bike or purchase tools to complete the job.

    It doesn't seem to me that people are coming out of the woodwork to support LBS' over the Net retailers. But this is the "Beginners" forum. And since most beginners have no clue how a bit fits, what a good fit would be, preper size, how helmets and shoes fit, lack local knowledge of trails or how to hook up on rides, etc. etc. etc. the advice tends to lean toward local bike shops. The advice is different in cases where someone has been riding for a while but.....

    The only time I would buy a bike without test riding it for fit is if it's a custom made frame. I think it's foolish to spend so much money on a bike without knowing how it fits.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Konish
    I'm sorry, but I'm not following you...exactly *what* does not apply to everyone?

    Umm, I don't think I stated anything other than it was my opinion. So yes, it is clearly my opinion. I don't see how your opinion of BD is any more valid since it seems as though you haven't actually had to deal with them and yet you assume the worst.

    Also, you present a common argument based solely on your *personal* experience selling and building bikes (which I'm guessing that the majority of which are the brands your store carries). Your anecdotal experience while real, is simply that, anecdotal.

    I have not purchased a bike through BD, so I'm no "fanboy", but I have purchased from another online retailer and was happy with the transaction...as are many others.

    Again, I'm not here to argue one way or the other, but it always just seems like the LBS fans pull the 'ol scare tactic "boy-good-luck-with-that-heap-that'll-end-up-costing-you-MUCH-more-than-if-you-just-bought-from-an-LBS-because-everyone-just-knows-that-online-bike-retailers-suck" routine.

    Again, I say assign value to what is most important to the buyer and move in that direction, and accept the ups and downs that come along with either decision.
    I'm saying is this:

    So far you have a 100% success rate for building bikes, which is one bike build out of one bike build.

    90% of the one thousand bike builds I've been involved with had no problems the average home mechanic could not have resolved.

    Of the one hundred problem builds, 75% of them I had to perform repairs like dish a wheel, tap a bottom bracket, or align a fork; tasks which an average home mechanic does not know how to do or possess the tools. More importantly, the beginner would not be able to recognize any of these problems, and while a shop would, these are tasks which cost $30-75.

    The other 25% of the problem builds I put the bike back into the box and sent it back to the manufacturer.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    I'm pretty sure the rockhopper shares the same frame geo as the Ai HT Stumpy, Spec just keeps it a rev back in terms of the Ai so its M4 instead of M5. So the rockhopper has a really nice frame that is actually worth upgrading when you break stuff. You are paying a bit of premium for the name and you will have to decide if that is okay with you. IMHO, I think the rockhopper has alot value and is a good frame and starting spot that you can upgrade as needed over the years.

    Anthony

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: scooter916's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,265
    ask Bikes Direct what tires will work best for the trails near your home, maybe if you get a flat late Saturday and have ride planned on Sunday morning maybe they can ship you a tube in 2 hours so you don't miss a ride, when you crash (all newbies do, its just part of MTBing) you can strip down your bike and box it back up and send back to Bikes Direct for them to straighten you der hanger. You should also take a picture of you standing next to your new bike and then ship it back to them so they can adjust the stem hight/angle, saddle height and get you a good fit on your new bike as well.

    I'm with Konish I would much rather save a few bucks and buy form someone that is bulk buying and making small margins just to sell in volume over the interent and has to offer no customer service. After all when you buy from your LBS they just charge too much and buying one of the three biggest brands out there will be worse than a mailorder only bike.

  27. #27
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,718

    I suggest...

    Quote Originally Posted by clark4411
    Went to local shop guy that has worked there for 8 years but doesnt ride said I should get a specialized rockhopper hardtail it was 745 and I have seen all these deals on the net with better components or at least forks and brakes it had a Dart 2 fork and disc brakes Iam wanting to get a good bike for 700-900 Hardtail is what I am getting I am really leaning toward a 29er on bikesdirect for Windsor cliff 29er pro any suggestions?
    ... you get yourself some periods. I can sell you some for $0.75 each.

    For your first bike, get one at the local bike shop. Don't get one online. Bikes are not like Bratz dolls. They need service, and you will need some service. If you buy a bike at the bike shop, they will want to help you out, often for free. If you get your bike online, the bike shop will not really want to help you, but will at premium rates, so you won't really save any money in the wash, and you'll just annoy the LBS. ... not to mention, they will actually size you correctly and dial you in.

    Do not size a bike by the 'inches' size on the frame. That means almost nothing. One mfg's 16" bike might be the same as another mfg's 20" bike. Seriously. I know cause I have a 16" frame and a 19.5" frame that are the same size.

    Once you own and work on your bike for a while and figure out how to do most everything yourself, then worry about pinching pennies online.

    The Rockhopper is an excellent bike, especially for a first one. That would be a great choice if it fits you.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    31
    get the winsor it has better components and you will soon learn once you get used to a frame you will be just as adept with it as you would with any other bike.

  29. #29
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,976

    LBS service still available

    Quote Originally Posted by scooter916
    ask Bikes Direct what tires will work best for the trails near your home, maybe if you get a flat late Saturday and have ride planned on Sunday morning maybe they can ship you a tube in 2 hours so you don't miss a ride, when you crash (all newbies do, its just part of MTBing) you can strip down your bike and box it back up and send back to Bikes Direct for them to straighten you der hanger. You should also take a picture of you standing next to your new bike and then ship it back to them so they can adjust the stem hight/angle, saddle height and get you a good fit on your new bike as well.
    Even if the OP chooses to purchase a bike online, all these services are still available to him. A good LBS will see the opportunity to earn a customer for accessories, parts, clothing, and maybe even service. They will not thumb their nose at someone because they purchased a bike online.

    So I'm not sure how logical this argument is...if the OP needs a tube, are you saying an LBS wont sell him a tube because he purchased a bike online

    There is good and bad with buying online, and its not for everyone. But as a former bicycle mechanic, I always treated every customer with respect, it didn't matter if they rode a Trek, Specialized, Windsor, Motobecane, or a POS Huffy. So the argument that the OP will not get any service from a LBS if he purchases a bike online is bogus. Yes, he might have to pay for some services that he would have gotten free if he purchased the bike from the LBS. But that is part of the trade off, and if someone is capable of doing the basic maintenance themselves then an online purchase is not always a bad thing.

  30. #30
    Blind biker
    Reputation: harry2110's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    301
    I would go with the windsor bike as it has better components and the same warranty.

  31. #31
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,305
    This LBS service argument is dumb. Yes, the LBS will give you advice and service your crap and whatnot, but they'll do that anyway, if they're good. The real thing, to me anyway, is that those online bikes are barely any better value than a LBS budget brand bike, like a diamond back or a jamis. Get a budget bike on sale and it's a wash. From what i've seen the online brands will stick a nice fork, brakes, and rear derailleur on at the expense of the hubs, chain, bars, stem, cassette, and other places that a shopper won't notice the cut in spec. Of course i haven't compared every model, but it seems to be a trend.

    From my perspective, you get maybe 10% better spec for your $, but then you pay shipping, wait for it to arrive, spend 2 hours disassembling it, greasing, checking torque, and setting adjustments, and then you don't have someone to go talk to when you break stuff down the road. They're not that great of a value anyway.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    I'm curious about the folks pushing online, how many went online for there first bike? Once you have a bit of experience you know alot more than when your new to the sport, the LBS is helpful in that time period.

    Truth be told I wish I could afford to business with my LBS, but I can't afford to buy the bike I want. I'm currently in the early stages of building my next bike. I did the find LBS helpful in the early days and I'm happy I purchased my early bikes from them.

    Anthony

  33. #33
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    To summarize, I believe you want to compare a Rockhopper Comp Disc with a Windsor Cliff 29er Pro.

    Without doing a complete part-by-part analysis, I will say the Windsor will probably have better parts with the sole exception of the frame, which is an assumption on my part since I am biased towards Specialized.

    Ok, now that you know the parts are better on the Windsor, let me ask you this question:

    How can you tell the correct length of the rear derailleur cable housing?

    Now this seems like a very simple question, but if you can't answer it, your shifting will not be professional standard. BTW, the answer is the housing should extend from the rear derailleur about an inch before bending.

    You see, there are probably 50 details exactly like that one which shops will handle. Some of them is quite easy to figure out, some of them if you screw up, you destroy your bike (like "how to adjust the low-limit derailleur stop" or "does my bottom bracket shell needs to be tapped").

    Bikes Direct recommends you bring your bike to a professional shop, which adds another $60-80 to the cost of the bike. After you ride your bike a month, you will need to bring it back to the shop for minor adjustments, another $60-80, then every 6 months after that.

    When buying a bike from a dealer, you have more of a guarantee of a perfect assembled and adjusted bike, and you get the advice and friendship of the staff there.

    When you buy a bike online, all you get is a bike and a deal.
    I am sure you feel the way you stated; however you are incorrect on many levels.

    One - there is no reason to assume a Specialized frame is in any way better than a Windsor on quality. If you were aware of who made these frames and assembled the bikes; you would understand this completely.

    Second - Need and Cost of setup and work on bikes. You have completely overstated any required work and the cost/time required for such.
    The interesting thing is: Your statement would be true if made 25 years ago. I see later you state that you have sold and serviced hundreds of bikes; as someone who has sold and serviced hundreds of thousands of bikes I can assure you; today's bikes require much less setup and maintenance than you have suggested.

    Ninety Percent of our customers setup their own bike. If you work in a shop today; you know this is no big deal. Most bike shops spend 20 minutes setting up a new bike. In the past {say 25 years ago} we spent 2 hours on a bike setup. What's the difference? Factories today do almost complete setup and adjustment on most bikes right at the factory. Components are better and factory setup is better. Special work on a bike; once unboxed; is almost never needed. When needed it is 99% due to shipping damage.

    Point is: today those that buy bikes 'factory direct' almost never need skills beyond the simplest mechanical stuff. My wife or 14 yr old son can perfectly setup a bike in 20 minutes. Adjusting your own brakes and der takes cyclists about 10 minutes to learn. Hundreds of sources to learn how to service your own bike.

    And the last agrument that LBS types make; which you left out; sizing your bike: is also misleading at best. And shops that charge buyers $75 or $100 to get 'fitted' to a bike are not helping cycling at all.

    I understand that some people benefit from trying to make cycling seem too complicated for 'normal' humans to understand. But doesn't that miss the reason we all love bikes?

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,533

    If you go with the rockhopper...

    I know nothing about the windsor bike, and didn't look up the specs. From personal experience, the rockhopper is a pretty good bike. I've made quite a few changes to mine this season, but have been happy with it.

    The stock wheels are weak. I destroyed them in about a month riding xc trails with small drops, lots of roots, and a few stair drops. Ordered a set of Rhyno Lites and couldn't be happier.

  35. #35
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by clark4411
    Thank you for your reply. I think your right I dont have a clue maybe I will look for a shop that will make me feel a little more comfortable dealing with them. Does anyone know of a good shop around Austin Tx?

    Clark:

    I used to own 6 shops in Austin; so I know must dealers there.
    But today many of the best shops have changed

    I suggest Bicycle Discovery or Freewheeling as good local shops

    Windsor Cliff 29er Pro is a very good value and a great bike for big guys
    And we have sold lots in the Austin area

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...cliff29pro.htm

    BTW - Austin is a great place to live and ride
    Have Fun {and try top gingerbread pancakes at Kirby Lane Cafe after you next ride -- ummm}

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I am sure you feel the way you stated; however you are incorrect on many levels.

    One - there is no reason to assume a Specialized frame is in any way better than a Windsor on quality. If you were aware of who made these frames and assembled the bikes; you would understand this completely.

    Second - Need and Cost of setup and work on bikes. You have completely overstated any required work and the cost/time required for such.
    The interesting thing is: Your statement would be true if made 25 years ago. I see later you state that you have sold and serviced hundreds of bikes; as someone who has sold and serviced hundreds of thousands of bikes I can assure you; today's bikes require much less setup and maintenance than you have suggested.

    Ninety Percent of our customers setup their own bike. If you work in a shop today; you know this is no big deal. Most bike shops spend 20 minutes setting up a new bike. In the past {say 25 years ago} we spent 2 hours on a bike setup. What's the difference? Factories today do almost complete setup and adjustment on most bikes right at the factory. Components are better and factory setup is better. Special work on a bike; once unboxed; is almost never needed. When needed it is 99% due to shipping damage.

    Point is: today those that buy bikes 'factory direct' almost never need skills beyond the simplest mechanical stuff. My wife or 14 yr old son can perfectly setup a bike in 20 minutes. Adjusting your own brakes and der takes cyclists about 10 minutes to learn. Hundreds of sources to learn how to service your own bike.

    And the last agrument that LBS types make; which you left out; sizing your bike: is also misleading at best. And shops that charge buyers $75 or $100 to get 'fitted' to a bike are not helping cycling at all.

    I understand that some people benefit from trying to make cycling seem too complicated for 'normal' humans to understand. But doesn't that miss the reason we all love bikes?
    That's a funny question about quality of bike frames. Frankly, when it comes to hardtails, I think the only difference between frames is possibly weight, which is a direct function of engineering. I think durability and "quality", a funny word to use when discussing Taiwanese-factory made frames, is probably the same.

    Of course, when it comes full suspension bikes, where I think engineering has everything to do with quality and durability, then Specialized is vastly superior. Unless you like to explain this:



    I'm really glad, however, you decided to speak about how easy it is to set up a bike from the box, how factory setup has improved, and how even an untrained bike person can be taught to build bikes.

    You see, I am not focused on what goes well, but what goes wrong. You're saying your wife can build a bike, I'm saying that if there is a problem, a beginner might not even recognize it.

    I'm saying that if there is a problem with your bike beyond a cable adjust, I will make sure it is resolved, which Specialized supports my shop with an extremely large warranty department. You actually didn't say what you would do. I assume you will exchange bikes, although that might not fix the problem if it affects the entire line of bikes.

    As for how great the factory setup is, I train our new mechanics on how to build bikes. The first ones they build are not perfect, like a loose stem or a derailleur that shifts into the spokes, but over time, they usually get it right. But it was so easy to build a bike out of box, why isn't every bike perfect?

    And since you brought it up, fitting is a funny service. I do not charge anything for basic fitting, which guarantees you a comfortable and safe fit. The reason why is that I can distill my 20 years of experience into 15 minutes of basic adjustments.

    On the other hand, you don't need to be fitted. You can figure out if you need to be fitted by either suffering a chronic injury or crashing because the bike is the wrong size.

    As for your "elitist" argument, let me point this out: yeah, the Specialized staff are full of hardcore riders. I've met them on rides, bike events, races. They even sponsor the NorCal HS Mtn Bike League, which I am a coach.

    Your non-elitist company: what does it sponsor? Who do you help out?

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    104

    Typical BD marketing BS

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    One - there is no reason to assume a Specialized frame is in any way better than a Windsor on quality. If you were aware of who made these frames and assembled the bikes; you would understand this completely.
    I do not assume to know so, I know so. I have seen many examples of BD bikes, and had the displeasure to fix the problems out of the box on the bikes. I have seen the frames....poor welds, poor paint, and heavier than similar models, like the Rockhopper.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Second - Need and Cost of setup and work on bikes. You have completely overstated any required work and the cost/time required for such.
    The interesting thing is: Your statement would be true if made 25 years ago. I see later you state that you have sold and serviced hundreds of bikes; as someone who has sold and serviced hundreds of thousands of bikes I can assure you; today's bikes require much less setup and maintenance than you have suggested.
    Mike, in the last year, we have had 3 of your bikes that had bad cranks or bottom brackets BRAND NEW, OUT OF THE BOX! One customer had to request the replacement crank/BB from you guys 2 times before we got one the was somewhat useable. What it cost her in labor costs (she did not have the tools or mechanical knowledge to do the job....she just wanted a bike that worked!) @ $75 ( bike build plus pulling cranks/bb multiple times), 2 weeks of missed riding time, and a lot`of frustration, I think she quickly forgot about the low cost of her Dawes low end bike.

    BTW, I have been in the industry for over 25 years, and have also worked for a major bike company. I have sold and serviced many bikes as well, so I speak with as much experience as you, but without the BD agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Ninety Percent of our customers setup their own bike. If you work in a shop today; you know this is no big deal. Most bike shops spend 20 minutes setting up a new bike. In the past {say 25 years ago} we spent 2 hours on a bike setup. What's the difference? Factories today do almost complete setup and adjustment on most bikes right at the factory. Components are better and factory setup is better. Special work on a bike; once unboxed; is almost never needed. When needed it is 99% due to shipping damage.
    Maybe YOUR shops spend 20 minutes on their bikes.....but many other shops have much higher standards than you seem to. I have never taken the approach that the factory should be blindly trusted....my mechanics are required to check EVERY system on a bike. Wheel truing, bearing grease and adjusting, dropout alignments, cables and housings....(simply too much to list here). Judging by what I have seen of BD products, maybe you need to go over to your factories and get a better QC person. I guess you consider "special work" what a real bike shop considers proper setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Point is: today those that buy bikes 'factory direct' almost never need skills beyond the simplest mechanical stuff. My wife or 14 yr old son can perfectly setup a bike in 20 minutes. Adjusting your own brakes and der takes cyclists about 10 minutes to learn. Hundreds of sources to learn how to service your own bike.
    Case in point....I hope everyone here notices...Mike considers his 14 year old son a qualified mechanic! For all those that complain about the LBS having snot nosed 14 year olds working on bikes, Mike thinks that is just fine! Most of us would rather have an experienced mechanic working on our bikes...again, higher standards!

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    And the last agrument that LBS types make; which you left out; sizing your bike: is also misleading at best. And shops that charge buyers $75 or $100 to get 'fitted' to a bike are not helping cycling at all.
    So are you saying that bike fitting is not important? Does no one here have an issue with that statement?! That shops that fit people are not helping cycling at all?!?! WOW!

    Or is it just those that charge for their services? Do you make money on your bikes Mike, or do you sell at no profit? Since when did it become bad to charge for services?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I understand that some people benefit from trying to make cycling seem too complicated for 'normal' humans to understand. But doesn't that miss the reason we all love bikes?
    We aren't trying to overly complicate cycling Mike. We are trying to give people good quality bikes, properly fitted, with service that keeps those bikes running at the best possible level.

    You sell bikes in boxes.

    Fact is Mike, that you avoid discussions based on quality (except for your own marketing pablum), and just want to talk price. Are your bikes inexpensive based upon the components? In many cases, yes. But have your bikes ever...EVER...been sold at your own stated MSRP? No. Do people get the same service that they would get if they purchased a bike that you want them to compare your bikes to (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) if they buy a BD bike? No. Can your bikes be test ridden? No. If there is a warranty issue, is there an extensive network of dealers to work with? No. You demonize bike shops, yet you run a few. The only bikes you sell are your own for a few reasons...One is you make more $$$ on your own private label imported stuff...another is no bike companies want to deal with you any more. ( Many of us, including you, know the reasons for this!) You claim you just want to get people less expensive bikes by using your business model. If that was true, you would not have so much redundancy in multiple brands (Motobecane, Dawes, Windsor, etc), distribution, and businesses. (Cycles Spectrum, Bikesdirect, bike Island, etc.)

    I (and many others that take you to task on a regular basis) maybe could respect you a lot more if you would step out from behind your marketing, and try to let your product stand on its own merits. But your tactics continue to put you in the worst possible light for those who can get beyond the lure of cheap bikes-in-a-box.

  38. #38
    knock-knock...
    Reputation: skottt160's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    577
    i didnt realize it was a responsibility of a company to sponsor events... isn't it the company's own decision how every dollar would be best spent with the company's goals in mind?

    where did the elitism argument come up anyway, sanjuro? i used firefox's "find" feature, and the only place on this page was in an ad on the side for usa cycling and your post.

    i find it hard to believe someone would be so out of it they would crash becuase their bike was not properly fitted. there might be some soreness, which someone would talk to others about or mess around with trying to get rid of, like shorter/longer stem etc, but "suffering a chronic injury or crashing because the bike is the wrong size?" someone may be a beginner, but they are not oblivious to what their body tells them.

    also a problem that affects an entire line of bikes? really? as a business owner, wouldn't you think if that were the case the company would have gone under LONG ago?

    online retailers and lbs both have their advantages, weigh them and enjoy your bike, whatever it is. there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this site that can help you nomatter what you ride with maintenance issues.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    269
    One thing to consider when buying from a bike shop is the service and maintenance. I've seen some bike shops give away tune ups for a year or two with the purchase of a bike. However, I've seen other stores sell you a service plan for an additional $70 or so.

    If a bike shop is going to throw in a year or two of tune-ups and safety checks, then it would be worth it to pay a bit more and get the rockhopper.

    However, if it is an additional cost to get a service plan with a bike, then you might as well buy a bike online, pay the ~$70 for someone to assemble the bike if you aren't comfortable doing it yourself and if it so happens that something goes wrong, then you will have to pay for the repair. Either way, regardless of where you bought your bike, you'd be paying for the repair assuming you didn't opt to spend the extra money on the service plan.

    Other things to consider when buying online, you are going to have to compare the geometry of each bike. Go test ride a few bikes at the shop, figure out which ones you like best and then try to find something online that has a similar stand over height, top tube length, etc. That way you are getting something that you know you are going to be comfortable riding, despite the fact that you hadn't gotten the opportunity to test ride the bike.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    There's better, try Zinn's Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance if you're going to buy one IMHO; parktool.com on line is quite good as well. Just curious, do you return it to the library with greasy fingerprints after working on your bike?
    Haha, no, I did not return the book with greasy fingerprints on it (I would have been docked for it and most likely charged the price of the book). I simply made copies of the page on how to change a flat tire, what set of basic tools are good to start off, just some basic stuff. I havent had to fix or adjust anything on my bike yet, but its nice to know I have many available resources, including this site.

    As for Zinn's, I have seen it, and it was on my list of books to look at. I do not remember if my library had that book, or if it was checked out when I went down there. Any book with pictures will be good, although if you are a more serious shop mechanic type you will likely have your favorites.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    Mike,
    I don't understand your bike fitting point; when I was new to MTB I honestly had no idea what a bike should feel like. I didn't know where and how I should move my weight and an LBS provided me alot of information to help me get started. I'm just not certain how with a first bike you can offer that.

    I think your company has alot of value and is great for many things, but I just don't understand the first bike fitting...

    Anthony

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    I do not assume to know so, I know so. I have seen many examples of BD bikes, and had the displeasure to fix the problems out of the box on the bikes. I have seen the frames....poor welds, poor paint, and heavier than similar models, like the Rockhopper.
    Bollocks. The rest of your rambling post is also bollocks.

    I understand that you want to protect your business, but lay off the FUD. Be glad that you could make up for the lost sale by peddling your overpriced services to clueless customers.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    590
    Quote Originally Posted by clark4411
    I apologize for the poor grammer and lack of punctuation!
    And to think people actually knew how to write prior to texting technology. This is yet another reason why texting removes any education in a person.

  44. #44
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,211
    Wow, the thread is deteriorating nicely.

    I'll restate my main point:
    Quote Originally Posted by perttime
    Buying from a LBS has advantages: you can make sure the bike fits and handles, before you spend your money. Fit and handling are the important things in a bike, followed by durability and reliability.

    Test ride every single suitable bike you can find locally ....

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    104

    Thanks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Bollocks. The rest of your rambling post is also bollocks.

    I understand that you want to protect your business, but lay off the FUD. Be glad that you could make up for the lost sale by peddling your overpriced services to clueless customers.
    Thanks for reinforcing my belief that the typical Moto/BD customer chooses to avoid the issues and ignore the facts, and will just lash out against those pointing out a difference of opinion.

    The sale was not lost in the first place. The people buying BD bikes are not my customers anyway. After they have the experiences with the majority of these bikes, IF they still want to pursue cycling, they will come look for everything they missed out on before. Proper fit, better quality, proper setup, service, etc.

    It is also interesting to point out that BD states that if there are any problems with the setup or issues that they don't understand they should......(wait for it...)....bring it to a bike shop! Why do you think that is, "bloke"? Because THAT is where the people are that know what needs to be done, with the correct training, tools, etc.

    Can many people work on their own bikes? SURE! I didn't say they couldn't.(I think it's great when people get more involved in the sport, and better understand their equipment.) There are many other things I can do as well....In many cases, I work on my own car, do my own home repairs, my own landscaping, etc. But when a job is beyond my capabilities, due to expertise needed or tools required, I will turn to a professional in that field. I do not feel the need, however, to log on to websites and make disparaging remarks about other professions like you do.

    Finally, you may see my service as overpriced, and my customers clueless. So be it. Should I think computer programmers should be ashamed for charging what they do, when most 13 year olds could do the same for pennies on the dollar? But, hey, I guess they need to be paid also, right? I could just call the Geek Squad, they are way cheaper!
    But I understand the relationship of lower costs vs. services lost. Take a few business courses, then do some time in the trenches, then you may understand better. Till then, stick to the horses and hikers forum, mate.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    Finally, you may see my service as overpriced, and my customers clueless.
    Cfrone1,
    I don't see your service as overpriced, but I do think your product is. I think many companies have inflated the value of the product to the point where folks can't afford them anymore. Can you believe that there are bikes that sell for almost the same price as a basic car? IMHO thatís lunacy. I'm in the process of building up a FS rig for myself; I have a budget of $1500 and a desired performance range for my money. I spoke with a few bike shops and to get what I wanted would cost ~$3.5k - $4k, much more money than I had. I decided that my time was worth less than that $2k, and I have priced/searched out exactly what I want and I'm in the process of putting it together. My point is that at I really would have preferred to buy from LBS, but the cost was prohibitive and I'm building it up myself instead.

    Anthony

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    104

    No Problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    Cfrone1,
    I don't see your service as overpriced, but I do think your product is. I think many companies have inflated the value of the product to the point where folks can't afford them anymore. Can you believe that there are bikes that sell for almost the same price as a basic car? IMHO thatís lunacy. I'm in the process of building up a FS rig for myself; I have a budget of $1500 and a desired performance range for my money. I spoke with a few bike shops and to get what I wanted would cost ~$3.5k - $4k, much more money than I had. I decided that my time was worth less than that $2k, and I have priced/searched out exactly what I want and I'm in the process of putting it together. My point is that at I really would have preferred to buy from LBS, but the cost was prohibitive and I'm building it up myself instead.

    Anthony
    Anthony,

    You are exactly the kind of customer that can benefit from the internet if you have the time and know how to handle such a project. I have no problem with this whatsoever, and I think that you will have a blast doing the research, mechanics, and legwork yourself. There will be a big source of satisfaction when it is all done, and you will love your bike that much more.

    What I have a problem with is people looking at different scenarios (web vs. LBS) and making blanket, disparaging remarks about a large group of people. At least have the intellectual integrity to understand the 2 are not the same, and there are MANY people who use, enjoy, and need the services provided by bike shops. The ridiculous assumptions and claims made by some people here can cause some of the people, that need the expertise and personal service the most, problems in the long run. (Remember, this is the Beginner's Corner...not the Expert Corner.)

    I hope you enjoy the new rig, and have fun building it up. Enjoy!

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    Cfrone1,
    Ok, we agree.

    Anthony

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    What I have a problem with is people looking at different scenarios (web vs. LBS) and making blanket, disparaging remarks about a large group of people. At least have the intellectual integrity to understand the 2 are not the same, and there are MANY people who use, enjoy, and need the services provided by bike shops.
    It was you who have made blank, disparaging remarks about quality and integrity of bikesdirect product which I do know for a fact to be less then truthful.

    Yes there are many people who are not capable of performing even the basic maintenance, which is quite easy to do, and Mike was absolutely correct to point that out. So you will have a steady stream of customers to (over)charge.

    Your rage against internet retailers is understandable, but it is still bollocks.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160
    i didnt realize it was a responsibility of a company to sponsor events... isn't it the company's own decision how every dollar would be best spent with the company's goals in mind?
    You are absolutely right about that. Part of the cost of a Specialized or a Trek is the advertising budget, which includes event sponsorship.

    However, I have met Mike Sinyard, the owner of Specialized, at several events, and if I had a problem with his products, I would mention it.

    Given the confidence I have with Specialized products and service, I am glad they sponsor events because their employees can be proud of their stuff. But if there was a problem, those guys would get the bum's rush.

    How does that apply to the customers of Bikes Direct? Well, they are not a member of Bikesbelong.org, the primary industry advocacy group for cycling. I don't know of any events they sponsor. Their prices are really good though.
    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160
    where did the elitism argument come up anyway, sanjuro? i used firefox's "find" feature, and the only place on this page was in an ad on the side for usa cycling and your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    I understand that some people benefit from trying to make cycling seem too complicated for 'normal' humans to understand. But doesn't that miss the reason we all love bikes?
    I apologize here. I read into "normal" comment made by bikesdirect, and assumed it was an anti-elitist rant. I'm sorry for reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160
    i find it hard to believe someone would be so out of it they would crash becuase their bike was not properly fitted. there might be some soreness, which someone would talk to others about or mess around with trying to get rid of, like shorter/longer stem etc, but "suffering a chronic injury or crashing because the bike is the wrong size?" someone may be a beginner, but they are not oblivious to what their body tells them.
    Well if a bike had too much standover, you could crash on the first ride. And about 1 out of 5 beginners, I have to convince them that getting the biggest bike they can straddle is not good fit.

    And this came up today: a friend bought a bike from another shop and her butt was sore from first few rides. She had actually gotten a gel pad (I called it a jelly pad). What she didn't realize is that the saddle nose was too high. I readjusted it and it felt a lot better.

    She recognized the pain but it took a professional to resolve the problem correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160
    also a problem that affects an entire line of bikes? really? as a business owner, wouldn't you think if that were the case the company would have gone under LONG ago?
    Trek had a problem with their Remedy line with broken stays on a few (less than 10) bikes. They re-engineered the stay, issued a recall of the entire line and replaced the defective part, and since then there hasn't been a problem.

    It wasn't even hard to find this complaint about the Motobecane. Great customer service.
    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160
    online retailers and lbs both have their advantages, weigh them and enjoy your bike, whatever it is. there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this site that can help you nomatter what you ride with maintenance issues.
    I'm not saying buying a bike online is a horrible idea. I've even entertained starting my own online bike business. I just know that I wouldn't promise simple-out-the-box builds, or poo on the local bike shop either. I would just offer a better price and leave it at that.

  51. #51
    knock-knock...
    Reputation: skottt160's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    577
    sounds good.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    Cfrone1,
    I don't see your service as overpriced, but I do think your product is. I think many companies have inflated the value of the product to the point where folks can't afford them anymore. Can you believe that there are bikes that sell for almost the same price as a basic car? IMHO that’s lunacy. I'm in the process of building up a FS rig for myself; I have a budget of $1500 and a desired performance range for my money. I spoke with a few bike shops and to get what I wanted would cost ~$3.5k - $4k, much more money than I had. I decided that my time was worth less than that $2k, and I have priced/searched out exactly what I want and I'm in the process of putting it together. My point is that at I really would have preferred to buy from LBS, but the cost was prohibitive and I'm building it up myself instead.

    Anthony
    I have noticed the cost of bikes compared to motorcycles and cars, and even bike experts scratch their heads. The only thing I can think is that the bikes have much lower volume than cars and motorcycles, making the costs higher.

    But I have to warn you about buying a full suspension bike from Bikes Direct. Unlike hardtails, which have simple frames with no moving parts, full suspension is all about the moving parts. Machining, engineering design, and bearing/bushing quality is critical for a well performing, long lasting bike.

    While it may seem like a ripoff about the price differences, if you can, take out a pivot from a Motobecane and compare it to a Specialized or a Trek. It will be revealing.
    Last edited by sanjuro; 12-29-2008 at 09:56 AM.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: agabriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    851
    Hi Sanjuro,
    I actually found a used '07 Yeti 575 frame at an LBS. The owner of the shop rode it for a year and then built up a new one with the new suspension design that came out this year I got it for a really good price and I'm excited about getting it finished over the winter .

    The only reason I can come up with for the cost of bikes is a bubble, there is really no reason for this stuff to be this expensive. I'm betting a few MBAs somewhere jacking up prices until the market collapses - I could be wrong, but I bet I'm not...

    Anthony

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    273

    No, not hard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    He's saying that some people can manage a build themselves and some people don't know how to do it and have to add additional cost to their online bike purchase.

    This is especially the case in a new mountain biker who either has to have a LBS build the bike or purchase tools to complete the job.

    It doesn't seem to me that people are coming out of the woodwork to support LBS' over the Net retailers. But this is the "Beginners" forum. And since most beginners have no clue how a bit fits, what a good fit would be, preper size, how helmets and shoes fit, lack local knowledge of trails or how to hook up on rides, etc. etc. etc. the advice tends to lean toward local bike shops. The advice is different in cases where someone has been riding for a while but.....

    The only time I would buy a bike without test riding it for fit is if it's a custom made frame. I think it's foolish to spend so much money on a bike without knowing how it fits.
    Ken thanks for your response. Yes, I did understand the overall idea in this thread, but I thought there might be more in the specific comment. You know, I got all ready to post a lengthy response that addresses some of the more dogmatic themes in your post, but I know it's probably best left unsaid.

    Personally, I'm going to stop commenting on these types of threads. I guess I'm assuming that someone that has enough of a clue to post on MTBR asking questions isn't the totally clueless noob that needs some LBS salesman to tell him his shoes are too tight.

    In the end, folks will spend their money where they perceive value...

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    Hi Sanjuro,
    I actually found a used '07 Yeti 575 frame at an LBS. The owner of the shop rode it for a year and then built up a new one with the new suspension design that came out this year I got it for a really good price and I'm excited about getting it finished over the winter .

    The only reason I can come up with for the cost of bikes is a bubble, there is really no reason for this stuff to be this expensive. I'm betting a few MBAs somewhere jacking up prices until the market collapses - I could be wrong, but I bet I'm not...

    Anthony
    I know for the cost of a brand new Nomad/Enduro/Remedy, I can smoking everyone on a 250cc motorbike.

    I have never been on the other side of bike manufacturing. I can tell you that shops receive only a small margin, at least compared to soft goods, on bikes.

    I think getting an used Yeti is a much better deal than a new Motobecane. When you need small parts, they will be readily available (and I bet Yeti uses Enduro Bearings, which are very common). I know a lot of those guys, so they put out quality stuff.

  56. #56
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I know for the cost of a brand new Nomad/Enduro/Remedy, I can smoking everyone on a 250cc motorbike.

    I have never been on the other side of bike manufacturing. I can tell you that shops receive only a small margin, at least compared to soft goods, on bikes.

    I think getting an used Yeti is a much better deal than a new Motobecane. When you need small parts, they will be readily available (and I bet Yeti uses Enduro Bearings, which are very common). I know a lot of those guys, so they put out quality stuff.

    You have made many statements that reveal that you do not know a whole lot about how bicycles are manufactured.

    However, I feel you are very fair in that you include limitations like "I THINK" and "I BET"

    Yeti makes good bikes
    Upper end Motobecanes are in the same class; you every rider I have seen test a fantom Team has been blown away by the quality and performance..

    When it comes to small parts availbility; Motobecane is better stocked and quicker on response than most companies. People do bend rear der hangers. From time to time pivots and bushings and bearing do wear out. We stock all those and it takes customers 2 to 3 days to receive anything they need.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    It was you who have made blank, disparaging remarks about quality and integrity of bikesdirect product which I do know for a fact to be less then truthful.

    Yes there are many people who are not capable of performing even the basic maintenance, which is quite easy to do, and Mike was absolutely correct to point that out. So you will have a steady stream of customers to (over)charge.

    Your rage against internet retailers is understandable, but it is still bollocks.
    Nope, I don't have "rage" against internet retailers. As I clearly stated (if you had taken the time to read thoroughly and did not take things out of context) they have their place. But they are not the same as a LBS....apples and oranges. Each have their own pros and cons.

    And I did not make blank, disparaging remarks...I simply pointed out, based upon experiences working on many more than 1 or 2 of the bikes, the facts that I and others (the customers of thee bikes) have found to be true on more than 1 occasion. I would call those facts, where as you are getting much more emotional about it.

    I love the fact that out of everything I pointed out, the thing you find the most fault with is what I charge for service. Just stick your head in the sand, and ignore all of the other issues, just what I charge. (Which, I assume, you are not one of my customers, and have no idea what I charge.)

    BTW, what EXACTLY do you do for a living, and do you charge people per hour or job for your services? What do you base you rates on? Lets have a real discussion. Lets see if you understand business at all.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    104

    What!?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Yeti makes good bikes
    Upper end Motobecanes are in the same class; you every rider I have seen test a fantom Team has been blown away by the quality and performance..

    When it comes to small parts availbility; Motobecane is better stocked and quicker on response than most companies. People do bend rear der hangers. From time to time pivots and bushings and bearing do wear out. We stock all those and it takes customers 2 to 3 days to receive anything they need.
    Did you actually have the balls to compare your Motos and Yeti as in the same class?!?!

    Does no one else see a problem here?

    As far as small parts availability, besides YOU, where else can a customer get a derailleur hanger. Oh yeah, besides the bikes shops or other website that you own? Because you can walk into any decent shop across the country and pick up a hanger for a Spec. Enduro or Trek Liquid or Giant Trance or whatever in many different shops. And how come when my customer needed the crank (which I referred to in previous posts) which was defective right out of the box over a week to get the parts from you both times? What happened to 2-3 days? Not to mention the many posts that state "I tried to get someone on the phone, but couldn't get through". So I am not sure you want to start staking your claim on service.

    Really man, between the "fit is overrated", "compare to a (insert major brand here) for twice the price", and now "Yetis and Motos are in the same class", you are digging yourself a bigger hole.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    Did you actually have the balls to compare your Motos and Yeti as in the same class?!?!

    Does no one else see a problem here?
    No, I do not. I do own two Yeti's, AS-R and Kokopelli, and I did own a Litespeed. I also now own Fly Team Ti. Its frame worksmanship is just as good. It is better then most mass market brands. Not as good as Moots, but just as functional. Assembly was decent (I had to tune it up out of the box) and components (full XTR and Richey WCS) had been flawless. Anything remotely comparable in a local shop would be double the price.

    You keep disparaging your competitor, which is quite pathetic I should say.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    You have made many statements that reveal that you do not know a whole lot about how bicycles are manufactured.

    However, I feel you are very fair in that you include limitations like "I THINK" and "I BET"

    Yeti makes good bikes
    Upper end Motobecanes are in the same class; you every rider I have seen test a fantom Team has been blown away by the quality and performance..

    When it comes to small parts availbility; Motobecane is better stocked and quicker on response than most companies. People do bend rear der hangers. From time to time pivots and bushings and bearing do wear out. We stock all those and it takes customers 2 to 3 days to receive anything they need.

    Someone might find a great deal on a used Yeti
    But it would be hard to match the deal on a New Fantom Team for $1895
    just check the specs, weight, and magazine reviews
    I suspect I know as much as you do about manufacturing bikes. I, too, have visited the Taiwanese booths at Interbike (no waits on the beer line).

    As for how good your full suspension bikes are, I am going to have to take your word for it.

    The only bikes I am sure of are Santa Cruz, Yeti, Specialized, Intense, Turner, Maverick. These are bikes that are used by my friends in Downieville, and I mean 100 runs a season.

    When I see someone run a Motobecane there for one hundred runs, then you might have something.

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    249
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod
    It all depends on your lbs. If they're good guys it would be worth buying the bike from them just to establish a relationship.
    Establish a relationship?

    Are LBS employees really that cool?

    You LBS employees are the ones who don't understand business.

    I have the money that you want.

    You have bikes, parts, and services that I can get anywhere and if I am willing to wait a couple days, I can get them for about half what you would charge me.

    If you want me to buy my next bike from you, you need to establish a relationship with me.

    If a bike shop won't help you when your spending $5, why the hell would you give them the $1000-$5000 it costs for a decent bike?

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    When I see someone run a Motobecane there for one hundred runs, then you might have something.
    That's an odd criteria, I would think.

    WFIW I have seen quite a few adventure racers on Fly's. That's how I got the idea to take a look...

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    I love the fact that out of everything I pointed out, the thing you find the most fault with is what I charge for service. Just stick your head in the sand, and ignore all of the other issues, just what I charge. (Which, I assume, you are not one of my customers, and have no idea what I charge.)
    If your customers are paying, you can charge whatever you want. That's what I do to my customers. That is completely irrelevant to the fact that most of them can handle bike maintenance themselves, and that for most of them buying online will be a better deal.

    Personally, I never go to an LBS as it is faster to me to do anything then it takes to drive there. They are all very slow, and most of the time rather sloppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    BTW, what EXACTLY do you do for a living, and do you charge people per hour or job for your services? What do you base you rates on? Lets have a real discussion. Lets see if you understand business at all.
    I develop software nowdays (I used to be physicist), I do own a small business and I also consult (right at this very moment I am charging one client). I base my rate on what they are willing to pay and I do not have a shortage of work.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianBarbarian
    Establish a relationship?

    Are LBS employees really that cool?

    You LBS employees are the ones who don't understand business.

    I have the money that you want.

    You have bikes, parts, and services that I can get anywhere and if I am willing to wait a couple days, I can get them for about half what you would charge me.

    If you want me to buy my next bike from you, you need to establish a relationship with me.

    If a bike shop won't help you when your spending $5, why the hell would you give them the $1000-$5000 it costs for a decent bike?
    That's exactly what I say. I call it my tube-pump theory. On your first visit you buy a tube for $5. The next visit you get a pump for $30. Then you buy a bicycle. If the first two visits are screwed-up, you won't visit the third time for the bike.

    The old way of thinking is that the LBS supplies the services and knowledge that you can't get online. The modern way is that price rules everything, and if a shop owner thinks knowing the local trail system or having a BB tap is going to force local riders to come exclusively to his shop, he might as well apply as for a Frejus dealership.

    I think the best shops acknowledge the online market, willing to install and service online purchases, and still supply the services expected from your local shop.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I think the best shops acknowledge the online market, willing to install and service online purchases, and still supply the services expected from your local shop.
    Best shops actually have a good online storefront.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    249
    In my experience a greater percentage of buyers at the LBS end up with the wrong size frame than those that use online retailers.

    Not a fair comparison since people that buy online are generally more experienced and know what they want but an online retailer will often have a larger selection of sizes and their bikes are stored in a warehouse, sometimes they sit on frames for years. All the LBS around me have high overhead and very limited floor space. When the new models are coming they have to sell the old ones first. Sometimes this means you can get a good deal, often it means the salesperson will want to push a certain bike even if it is the wrong size.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianBarbarian
    In my experience a greater percentage of buyers at the LBS end up with the wrong size frame than those that use online retailers.

    Not a fair comparison since people that buy online are generally more experienced and know what they want but an online retailer will often have a larger selection of sizes and their bikes are stored in a warehouse, sometimes they sit on frames for years. All the LBS around me have high overhead and very limited floor space. When the new models are coming they have to sell the old ones first. Sometimes this means you can get a good deal, often it means the salesperson will want to push a certain bike even if it is the wrong size.
    I think you have crappy bike shops in your area.

    I never push an older model onto customer when there is a better value from a new bike, and I would never sell any bike at any price if it is the wrong size. I want your return business as well.

    And I dispute about the level of knowledge of the online customer is. I do know something about the online retail business, and I believe the top customers are actually beginners who don't want to go thru the rigamarole of dealing with a bunch of bike shop bro's to get a sliver of info.

  68. #68
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,718

    Well, I wasn't saying that exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Even if the OP chooses to purchase a bike online, all these services are still available to him. A good LBS will see the opportunity to earn a customer for accessories, parts, clothing, and maybe even service. They will not thumb their nose at someone because they purchased a bike online.

    So I'm not sure how logical this argument is...if the OP needs a tube, are you saying an LBS wont sell him a tube because he purchased a bike online

    There is good and bad with buying online, and its not for everyone. But as a former bicycle mechanic, I always treated every customer with respect, it didn't matter if they rode a Trek, Specialized, Windsor, Motobecane, or a POS Huffy. So the argument that the OP will not get any service from a LBS if he purchases a bike online is bogus. Yes, he might have to pay for some services that he would have gotten free if he purchased the bike from the LBS. But that is part of the trade off, and if someone is capable of doing the basic maintenance themselves then an online purchase is not always a bad thing.
    Of course the OP will get service if he pays for it. OTOH, if the OP bought the bike from said shop, and say, spokes loosened up, most likely the shop would jsut take care of him without charging him. Just call it the free first year of tune-up kinda service. If the OP wheeled in his Winsor, the shop would take care of his wheel re-tensioning, but will prolly charge him $15-30. Derailleur adjustment... another $10-20.. true a dragging brake rotor/brake adjustment... $10-20... Just as if he bought a name brand bike at another shop, and brought it in.

    Most any good shop around here would just take care of it without charge for the first year, unless the owner of the bike was obviously abusing the bike.

    That is what I mean by service.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SenorSlacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    216
    Clark4411, why not have a at rscycle.com and take a look at a Iron Horse MKIII. If you have questions regarding the quality of the bike, go look at the Iron Horse forum. This bike is an outstanding value, with lots of room for growth. Good luck with your shopping and more importantly enjoy your bike.

  70. #70
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,211
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I never push an older model onto customer when there is a better value from a new bike, and I would never sell any bike at any price if it is the wrong size.
    Of course, an older model might be a wonderful value.

    The shops that I visit frequently swap stems, bars, seats, etc. to make sure the bike fits, before it goes out the door.

  71. #71
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    Mike,
    I don't understand your bike fitting point; when I was new to MTB I honestly had no idea what a bike should feel like. I didn't know where and how I should move my weight and an LBS provided me alot of information to help me get started. I'm just not certain how with a first bike you can offer that.

    I think your company has alot of value and is great for many things, but I just don't understand the first bike fitting...

    Anthony
    Anthony
    Although this is a mine field for extremists that feel it is a holy gail
    I will tell you my points

    1 - Fit is personal
    2 - Fit is the same from brand to brand for those that can read a geo chart
    3 - Fit is not rocket sceince
    4 - Those that over-state fit importance have an agenda - it is important but not to the mm
    5 - Most riders can use two different sizes in many bikes {I can be happy on 52c, 54c, or 56c on most traditional road frames}

    After selling thousands of bikes; I can tell you few customers return for fit or complain due to fit.

    Also; it is well know in the industry that many dealers "Size" based on their inventory. IE - you are much more likely to be told you need an 18" if the dealer has it in stock but is out of 16". Maybe the truth is; if you were getting 'custom built' you might go for 17" - and that you can go up or down to 16" or 18" --- so dealer is going to tell you what?

    In summary, it is good to know how to size yourself and buy where you can get the size YOU feel you need. That is my opinion.

  72. #72
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by Cfrone1
    You demonize bike shops, yet you run a few. The only bikes you sell are your own for a few reasons...One is you make more $$$ on your own private label imported stuff...another is no bike companies want to deal with you any more. ( Many of us, including you, know the reasons for this!) You claim you just want to get people less expensive bikes by using your business model. If that was true, you would not have so much redundancy in multiple brands (Motobecane, Dawes, Windsor, etc), distribution, and businesses. (Cycles Spectrum, Bikesdirect, bike Island, etc.)

    I (and many others that take you to task on a regular basis) maybe could respect you a lot more if you would step out from behind your marketing, and try to let your product stand on its own merits. But your tactics continue to put you in the worst possible light for those who can get beyond the lure of cheap bikes-in-a-box.
    I think you might get more respect if you would avoid making FALSE statements. It does not seem to bother you that you are posting things that are incorrect; which everyone can see are false.

    I think many things you have posted are incorrect and many just plain made up. But on the ones that can be checked out; you should know people will see that you are just making stuff up. And that does not help cycling.

    By the way; I never "demonize bike shops". Some shops and some employees of shops; I have critisized some behavior. But I have many shops, like them a lot; provide customers with good service and products. And there are many many shops doing the same from coast to coast.

    With todays environment; I plan to expand my number of shops in the future.

    There is a place for shops and for on-line sales - both serve a useful function.
    And I think customers deserve a choice
    I like choices

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    1 - Fit is personal
    2 - Fit is the same from brand to brand for those that can read a geo chart
    3 - Fit is not rocket sceince
    4 - Those that over-state fit importance have an agenda - it is important but not to the mm
    5 - Most riders can use two different sizes in many bikes {I can be happy on 52c, 54c, or 56c on most traditional road frames}

    After selling thousands of bikes; I can tell you few customers return for fit or complain due to fit.

    Also; it is well know in the industry that many dealers "Size" based on their inventory. IE - you are much more likely to be told you need an 18" if the dealer has it in stock but is out of 16". Maybe the truth is; if you were getting 'custom built' you might go for 17" - and that you can go up or down to 16" or 18" --- so dealer is going to tell you what?

    In summary, it is good to know how to size yourself and buy where you can get the size YOU feel you need. That is my opinion.

    I started riding MTB around 1995. The LBS that was closest to me and seemed to have guys my age that worked there pushed me towards 18" frames (I'm 6',1"). Over the following years I learned what felt right and how to adjust a bike to my personal preferences and that 18" frames were too small. Come to find out this same local shop owner was from a BMX background and his sizing decisions were made from that standpoint - smaller flickable bikes I guess. No problem I just request the size I want from then on.
    Many years later and several thousands of dollars and referals to him, he tries to sell me a road bike that was smaller than what felt right. He had the model I wanted but the only size he had was the smaller. I tried an upper level same brand bike in the size I felt comfortable on but he didn't want to budge. This shop owner even tried to coerce me into the smaller bike and hassled me when I asked for the size that fit best.Going to another shop further away, I road several sizes of road bikes in a competing brand and picked the size that felt best without hassle or arm twisting. I still have this bike today and have not ever been back to the shop that I had been so loyal to over the years.
    my $.02
    Last edited by ecrock45; 01-01-2009 at 10:44 AM.
    Frankenstein doesn't scare me ...

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,790
    Geez...would a moderator please lock this thread and put it out of it's misery?

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ecrock45
    I started riding MTB around 1995. The LBS that was closest to me and seemed to have guys my age that worked there pushed me towards 18" frames (I'm 6',1"). Over the following years I learned what felt right and how to adjust a bike to my personal preferences and that 18" frames were too small.
    Speaking of fit, sizing frame by the seat tube size, is rarely reliable, as we all know. Even the top tube length is barely usable.

    While I do see people at local shops getting sized for road bikes, it is an incredibly rare occurrence anybody will be offered to pick the stem length, or handlebar width for a mountain bike, or anything beyond cookie cutter S-M-L pick off the shelf. And nobody gets the proper crank length. Fortunately, sizing to a fraction of an inch is indeed not the biggest deal.

    I should suggest to Mike that he follows the lead from Turner and few other companies and start publishing the newly proposed "Stack" and "Reach" measurements for frame sizes.


  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by clark4411
    I apologize for the poor grammer and lack of punctuation! I do alot of texting so my writing is jumbled and not complete most of the time. What I was trying to say is that I am really trying to find a decent bike at a good price with decent components. I went to my LBS and spoke the their salesman and he tried to get me to purchase a 19" rockhopper specialized. I am overweight and new to MBR but I truly enjoy it and I am hooked. I am mechanically inclined but not gramitically so I can handle the upkeep of a bike I believe. So should I by this bike although a little over priced or go with the 29er I located on bikesdirect any help would be appreciated Thanks gentleman cheers.....
    i would go with a gary fisher pirrana iits 100$ more but has a tora fork and hydralic disk brakes i got one a few months ago and i love it:

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    794
    The shops that I visit frequently swap stems, bars, seats, etc. to make sure the bike fits, before it goes out the door.
    I must have an awesome bike shop in my area because when I purchased my GF Cobia something wasn't feeling quite right with the stem. I simply asked if it would be possible to test ride the bike with a more upright stem and a little shorter cockpit. The salesman at the shop put on a stem of my choosing and made some adjustments to the bike and let me test ride it. They knew I might not buy the bike even after they took various parts off it and swapped them for me just for me to try. I thought that was awesome. The bike with the changes fit perfectly and it came home with me and has been the most comfortable bike I've ever owned.
    It's easy to make a buck, it's much harder to make a difference."

  78. #78
    Mtbr Forum Sponsor
    Reputation: bikesdirect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by DrNickels
    I must have an awesome bike shop in my area because when I purchased my GF Cobia something wasn't feeling quite right with the stem. I simply asked if it would be possible to test ride the bike with a more upright stem and a little shorter cockpit. The salesman at the shop put on a stem of my choosing and made some adjustments to the bike and let me test ride it. They knew I might not buy the bike even after they took various parts off it and swapped them for me just for me to try. I thought that was awesome. The bike with the changes fit perfectly and it came home with me and has been the most comfortable bike I've ever owned.

    This is good service
    But typical of good shops
    We do that in our shops all the time [more on seats than stems]
    And we even do it after the sale: someone rides their bike a week and needs to swap stem; we just do it. Very simple and quick these days.
    This type of on the spot testing and fitting is the main advantage of buying in shops, main disadvantage is price. Like so many things in life; it's a trade-off.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    244
    Quote Originally Posted by clark4411
    Went to local shop guy that has worked there for 8 years but doesnt ride said I should get a specialized rockhopper hardtail it was 745 and I have seen all these deals on the net with better components or at least forks and brakes it had a Dart 2 fork and disc brakes Iam wanting to get a good bike for 700-900 Hardtail is what I am getting I am really leaning toward a 29er on bikesdirect for Windsor cliff 29er pro any suggestions?
    I would not suggest buying your first bike online. I would suggest test riding the bikes and get the one which has the best fit (feels the best). I normally ride a 17" bike and on some bikes I need a 18". So the proper size can be diffrent from diffrent manufactures.

    That said over time you will replace a lot of compontes. Get the bike w/ the better frame. Been riding MTB since the early 90's and I haven't heard of Windsor. I think Specialized has the better frame of the two companies.

    I think you would be happy on a 29 inch bike.

    Here are some other bikes to look at as options. These are all good bikes BTW. I would suggest riding them first.

    Jamis 29er Dakota - Aluminum - $798
    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...r+Bike+07.aspx

    Voodoo Dambala 29er - Chromoly - $799 (build happens to be single speed)
    http://americancycle.com/itemdetails.cfm?id=9760

    Redline D460 29er - Chromoly - $788 (1x9 so it is 9 speeds)
    http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?p...ajor=2&minor=1

    KHS Tucson 29er - Chromoly - MSRP $1099 (Don't pay MSRP)
    http://www.khsbicycles.com/02_tucson_07.htm

    Haro
    http://www.harobikes.com/mtb/tab2_subNav5.php


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    You can also look at a full list of rating for 29ers bikes below
    http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/29er/PLS_1548crx.aspx
    Last edited by thaphillips; 01-04-2009 at 08:22 PM.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    That's an odd criteria, I would think.

    WFIW I have seen quite a few adventure racers on Fly's. That's how I got the idea to take a look...
    No, Downieville eat bicycles.

    I haven't ridden every bike ever made, so I have to speculate about some of this based on what I've learned over the years.

    However, the bikes which I see regularly in Downieville I am positive you can count on. A crappy bike would die on 3rd run down.

    Adventure racers? How much do they carry their bikes?

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    No, Downieville eat bicycles.

    I haven't ridden every bike ever made, so I have to speculate about some of this based on what I've learned over the years.

    However, the bikes which I see regularly in Downieville I am positive you can count on. A crappy bike would die on 3rd run down.

    Adventure racers? How much do they carry their bikes?
    And you point is? All the bikes need to be designed for Downieville?

    Been there, and with some sturdier tires I would not mind taking Fly Ti there.

    Here are MBA testers dirt jumping the Fly Ti

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    And you point is? All the bikes need to be designed for Downieville?

    Been there, and with some sturdier tires I would not mind taking Fly Ti there.

    Here are MBA testers dirt jumping the Fly Ti
    Ok, say whatever you want! Tell everyone you think a super lightweight hardtail is a great D'ville bike, when Mark Weir uses a VP-Free when he is not racing the Classic!

    But you've been there once, so thanks for your input!

    P.S. I got a picture of Sanjay doing a DJ comp on a road bike. So what's the point of your photo?

  83. #83
    Probably drunk right now
    Reputation: Ken in KC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,749

    Sigh...

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Ok, say whatever you want! Tell everyone you think a super lightweight hardtail is a great D'ville bike, when Mark Weir uses a VP-Free when he is not racing the Classic!

    But you've been there once, so thanks for your input!

    P.S. I got a picture of Sanjay doing a DJ comp on a road bike. So what's the point of your photo?

    Ok, say whatever you want! Tell everyone that the only bikes that you see ridden at D'ville are worth riding. Who cares what a pro rides? That doesn't matter. Mark Weir also rides Weirwolves and I hate those tires.

    The OP is from Texas. What does your awesome D'Ville experience tell you about how sanjuro approved D'ville bikes work in Texas?

    I suggest that there are a lot more Specialized bikes than Turners or Ellsworth combined. Care to venture a guess as to which frames have broken more often proportional to the number of bikes sold?

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Ok, say whatever you want! Tell everyone you think a super lightweight hardtail is a great D'ville bike, when Mark Weir uses a VP-Free when he is not racing the Classic!
    I suggest you improve your comprehension and logical skills. I was not suggesting that Fly is a good bike for Downieville. I have a different bike for such places, I used to have different bikes for such places, and I have been there much more then once.

    Throwing names around does not improve your argument.

    I am responding to the ridiculous assumption that Fly is somehow a bad bike because it would not hold up to a hundred runs there. It is not designed for that, and it should not be designed for that, it has a completely different intended audience, and even then Fly Ti will most likely hold up just fine with just a bit of care.

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    Ok, say whatever you want! Tell everyone that the only bikes that you see ridden at D'ville are worth riding. Who cares what a pro rides? That doesn't matter. Mark Weir also rides Weirwolves and I hate those tires.

    The OP is from Texas. What does your awesome D'Ville experience tell you about how sanjuro approved D'ville bikes work in Texas?

    I suggest that there are a lot more Specialized bikes than Turners or Ellsworth combined. Care to venture a guess as to which frames have broken more often proportional to the number of bikes sold?
    Well, considering Mark races a Blur XC and a Nomad, I think speaks volumes that he chooses a freeride frame to ride for fun. As for the brand of bike, well, you're right there. Weir has been sponsored by SC for almost a decade.

    But the local shop rents Santa Cruz, the local residents ride Santa Cruz, hundreds of visitors brings Santa Cruz's. Now you probably saying "Well Santa Cruz Bikes is only 250 miles away and sponsor everyone blah blah", and you're right. On the other hand, because there are hundreds of Santa Cruz's in Downieville, I hear all the complaints and problems in the toughest test laboratory in the world. And I know SC is a reliable brand.

    In comparison, there is an even larger brand of bikes sold and rented in D'Ville, and I hear all the complaints and problems as well. And this brand, well, it is just OK.

    P.S. Weirwolf is a great tire for NorCal, but I have no idea how it runs in your area.

    I think Downieville is the one of the best places to find out if your line of bikes hold up. Any bike can make it down from the Saddle (once, I saw a rigid 90's Stumpjumper with a rear rack heading down Third Divide). But for a line of bikes to make repeated runs by the regulars, that should tell you something.

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Well, considering Mark races a Blur XC and a Nomad, I think speaks volumes that he chooses a freeride frame to ride for fun. As for the brand of bike, well, you're right there. Weir has been sponsored by SC for almost a decade.
    I think whatever he rides is utterly irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I think Downieville is the one of the best places to find out if your line of bikes hold up.
    As nice as it is, it is far from a definitive place for such a study. And the fact that you do not see many lightweight hardtails there has nothing to do with quality or reliability of those hardtails.

    You seem to be very proud of having to ride some particular trail. Maybe you should broaden your horizon a bit?

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I suggest you improve your comprehension and logical skills. I was not suggesting that Fly is a good bike for Downieville. I have a different bike for such places, I used to have different bikes for such places, and I have been there much more then once.

    Throwing names around does not improve your argument.

    I am responding to the ridiculous assumption that Fly is somehow a bad bike because it would not hold up to a hundred runs there. It is not designed for that, and it should not be designed for that, it has a completely different intended audience, and even then Fly Ti will most likely hold up just fine with just a bit of care.
    I didn't say this frame or any other model is a bad bike. I'm saying I'm only confident of the brands I see under the best riders in Downieville. Those bikes are survivors.

    P.S. I own a ti Seven hardtail. I'd be glad to pontificate how wonderful is an American, hand built, custom drawn frame, and talk about how buying titanium from anyone besides an American custom builder is a huge mistake.

    And the one time I rode my Seven in Downieville, it sucked. It handled just like I thought it would, like a rigid cross-country bike! My hands and feet were numb!

    Here is my favorite "I told you so" story: a friend brought his XC hardtail with a SID World Cup, rim brakes, and 1.9 tires out to Packer Saddle. I made several recommendations at camp, the first being rent an all-mountain bike. My suggestions were promptly dismissed 'cause he was a "racer".

    Sure enough, he crashes super hard on Third Divide ("you can see down to the bone"). He told us he saw his fork legs deflect so much during braking that the brake pad hit the spokes and he flipped over.

    The next year he had a S-Works Enduro...

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I didn't say this frame or any other model is a bad bike. I'm saying I'm only confident of the brands I see under the best riders in Downieville. Those bikes are survivors.
    That defies any logic. It is not even in the ballpark of logic.

    There is absolutely no connection between what people choose to bring to Downieville and quality of the brand.

    Why Downieville? Why not Red Bull rampage? Why not Megavalanche? Just because you happened to ride there and are very proud of it?

    Why anything people use for 24 hour races will be of any lesser quality?

    For riding a multi day adventure race I pick what works for multi day adventure races, I could not care less if it works well for bombing down Downieville downhill.


    P.S. As far as your Seven frame, it rides no better then a ten times cheaper Motobecane, it is not more reliable, and buying it was a huge waste of money - unless you are a poser.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    You seem to be very proud of having to ride some particular trail. Maybe you should broaden your horizon a bit?
    I am extremely proud to ride in Downieville. You see, after the thousands of miles I've ridden in 17 states (I just did a spreadsheet), Downieville is the best place I've ever ridden.

    The trails are incredible. The people I've met there are some of my closest friends. I've helped build trail, driven pros and novices to the top, swam in the rivers, fixed a few bikes, and I've ridden just a fraction of the trails there.

    Sorry.

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    I am extremely proud to ride in Downieville. You see, after the thousands of miles I've ridden in 17 states (I just did a spreadsheet), Downieville is the best place I've ever ridden.
    So what? What exactly are you trying to prove?

    That any bike not designed to ride there is not worth considering? Grade A baloney.

    Thank you for the trails, I will enjoy them on my Coiler in the summer.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    That defies any logic. It is not even in the ballpark of logic.

    There is absolutely no connection between what people choose to bring to Downieville and quality of the brand.
    While I'm loathe to analyze your thinking, you should consider what I mean, not how you have been offended or your own ulterior goals.

    Like I've said, there are a lot of bikes out there, good and bad, but I know the brands that get ridden in Downieville a lot can be trusted. The others, I'll have to take your word on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Why Downieville? Why not Red Bull rampage? Why not Megavalanche? Just because you happened to ride there and are very proud of it?
    Maybe you think of Downieville as only the Classic, just like the Rampage or Megavalanche are competitions. I'm talking about the place, not the race.

    But I will point out the difference between the 3 events when it comes to the bikes: in the All-Mountain class (XC and DH), you have to ride the same bike on both days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Why anything people use for 24 hour races will be of any lesser quality?

    For riding a multi day adventure race I pick what works for multi day adventure races, I could not care less if it works well for bombing down Downieville downhill.
    Once again, I didn't say any bike whose wheels haven't touched Sierra soil are crappy, I can only tell you which ones I know are good.

    When I saw a Trek Remedy leading the pack in the Classic, I was flabbergasted. It changed my opinion about Trek on the spot. But I still like to see how the Remedy does over long-term use in Downieville.

    And c'mon, most of the miles in 24-Hour and Adventure races are fireroad and smooth tracks. When I see a 24-Hour race in Downieville, then I'll be impressed the bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    P.S. As far as your Seven frame, it rides no better then a ten times cheaper Motobecane, it is not more reliable, and buying it was a huge waste of money - unless you are a poser. And it looks very much like you are.
    So a Motobecane rides as a good as a Seven?

    Now, whose the poser again?

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    So what? What exactly are you trying to prove?

    That any bike not designed to ride there is not worth considering? Grade A baloney.

    Thank you for the trails, I will enjoy them on my Coiler in the summer.
    BTW, a lot of my friends ride Konas, and I used a Dawg Primo there for several seasons. Great bikes.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Once again, I didn't say any bike whose wheels haven't touched Sierra soil are crappy, I can only tell you which ones I know are good.
    You have said "When I see someone run a Motobecane there for one hundred runs, then you might have something". I find this illogical, as nobody will take a lightweight hardtail for a hundred runs there.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    And c'mon, most of the miles in 24-Hour and Adventure races are fireroad and smooth tracks. When I see a 24-Hour race in Downieville, then I'll be impressed the bikes.
    Yes, so? Do you want to tell me that riding an adventure race or an endurance race is any less fun then tooling around Downieville?

    I have been to a bunch of adventure races where I had to bushwhack off-road alone, with my bike on my shoulder and then bomb down some single track and rutted roads in pitch dark, while trying to navigate with a compass. I liked it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    So a Motobecane rides as a good as a Seven? Now, whose the poser again?
    I did not ride Seven, but I did ride Moots a bit and Litespeed a lot, and I happen to like my current Fly Ti a bit more - its shaped tubes seem to give it a stiffer BB, while it damps things like any other good titanium frame. I do not know how it will do long term, but worksmanship seems to be quite good. For the price - I will take two.

    I am certainly not a poser, as I do not imply that my favorite type of riding or manufacturing is the benchmark for all the things to be measured against.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    You have said "When I see someone run a Motobecane there for one hundred runs, then you might have something". I find this illogical, as nobody will take a lightweight hardtail for a hundred runs there.



    Yes, so? Do you want to tell me that riding an adventure race or an endurance race is any less fun then tooling around Downieville?

    I have been to a bunch of adventure races where I had to bushwhack off-road alone, with my bike on my shoulder and then bomb down some single track and rutted roads in pitch dark, while trying to navigate with a compass. I liked it.



    I did not ride Seven, but I did ride Moots a bit and Litespeed a lot, and I happen to like my current Fly Ti a bit more - its shaped tubes seem to give it a stiffer BB, while it damps things like any other good titanium frame. I do not know how it will do long term, but worksmanship seems to be quite good. For the price - I will take two.

    I am certainly not a poser, as I do not imply that my favorite type of riding or manufacturing is the benchmark for all the things to be measured against.
    There was a guy who rode a IF 29er at the Classic. He really changed my mind with hardtails and 29ers.

    I mostly ride my hardtail around the Bay Area, which is a lot smoother. I limped it around D'Ville, but more the suspension the better.

    There is nothing wrong 24 hour or Adventure races, just the challenge is less technical and more endurance.

    Finally, I'm kinda picky about ti bikes. I poo on Litespeed as well.

    I think the first and most important thing with a custom ti bike is not geometry but tube selection. If you weigh 130lb or 230, do you hammer or spin, are some the questions that decide on the tube and wall widths on a custom frame.

    Now, obviously for the average sized and style rider, most stock ti frames perform within spec.

    This one is a worse case scenario, but I have seen a few ti frames which have cracked from poor workmanship. Unlike steel, this will guaranteed happen if there is an imperfection.

    The thing about ti bikes reminds of buying an Italian frame back in the 80's. It was all mystique back then, and in some regards, it is still the same way. Buying from a custom builder is all about peace-of-mind.

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Buying from a custom builder is all about peace-of-mind.
    I can get four Fly's for the price of a single custom, so I do like my chances. I hardly will have any piece of mind throwing my super duper custom frame down a rocky ravine under rain. (And that did happen. My Yeti survived.) I am heavier then usual, but those shaped tubes seem to work fine for me. Changed seatpost gave me quite good fit. Angles are just fine. If I was ordering, I maybe be changed TT a quarter inch, and slacked head tube a tiny bit, but that's about it.

    I will be ordering a custom steel frame with SS couplers for travel, and I do understand the value of individual work - but for banging around in the dark, or climbing some fireroads I can find some better uses for my money.

    I think the whole point of my dialog here was that Moto's does have its uses, its D'ville toughness nonwithstanding. I will keep improving my Coiler for the trip there once snow goes away.

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sanjuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I can get four Fly's for the price of a single custom, so I do like my chances. I hardly will have any piece of mind throwing my super duper custom frame down a rocky ravine under rain. (And that did happen. My Yeti survived.) I am heavier then usual, but those shaped tubes seem to work fine for me. Changed seatpost gave me quite good fit. Angles are just fine. If I was ordering, I maybe be changed TT a quarter inch, and slacked head tube a tiny bit, but that's about it.

    I will be ordering a custom steel frame with SS couplers for travel, and I do understand the value of individual work - but for banging around in the dark, or climbing some fireroads I can find some better uses for my money.

    I think the whole point of my dialog here was that Moto's does have its uses, its D'ville toughness nonwithstanding. I will keep improving my Coiler for the trip there once snow goes away.
    If you look over the my posts, I don't have a problem with any hardtail, mail order or not. My point was really about suspension bikes anyway.

    I like a ti frame, but you pay and pay for the privilege. You might notice a difference if you bought one from a custom builder, but you might not.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.