I got the shaft . . . and its partly my fault- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    I got the shaft . . . and its partly my fault

    I realize I should have at least checked some reviews and done a little homework prior to making a bike purchase, but . . . So the only local bike shop in my area sees me for the uneducated idiot I was that day and sells me an 09 Raleigh Mojave 3.0 (my first bike in about 15 years) all the while telling me that the bike and its off the rack setup is perfect for my size (6'5" / 210lbs) and for any mountain bike riding style I would interested in. Three weeks after purchasing the bike, I destroyed the rear wheel, which was a Weinmann CN520, doing a very small jumps and riding trails you folks would laugh at. They replaced the wheel with a Weinmann 519 (the equivalent of the 520 they say) free of charge. After one short ride on pavement, this new wheel already shows evidence of lateral movement and something in the area of the hub is making a clicking noise which is also felt with each downward push of the pedals. I want to replace the wheel set and am currently looking at either the Rhyno lites with an XT hub (would prefer the Topo, but apparently hard to come by) or the Halo SAS 48 hole, which is also preferred, but also apparently hard to come by. The problems I am encountering include the fact that the bike currently has a 7 speed freewheel (another source of my disdain with the LBS) and rim brakes. Both the Rhyno lites and Halo rims advertise compatibility with rim brakes despite the fact that they seem to be made for disc, but neither advertises compatibility with a 7speed. How difficult would it be to upgrade to a wheel with an 8/9 speed cassette and still maintain the 7speed shifters that are on the bike? Is it even possible and if so, what would be the process? Thanks in advance - thoggard.

  2. #2
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    I would be discussing a return of this bicycle for credit to be applied towards a more suitable ride . If done with diplomacy and firmness this might be accompliced . Worth a try before you start dumping hard earned cash into an ill suited ride . Just sayin .

  3. #3
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    The spacing between the cogs of a 7-speed and 8-speed setup are the same; therefore, you can simply install a new wheel built on an 8-speed hub and the rim of your choosing. However, keep in mind that 7-speed hubs are 130mm (if memory serves me correctly) while 8 and 9-speed hubs are 135mm; you should be able to just pry the rear triangle apart slightly to fit the 8-speed hub. The 7-speed indexed shifter would work fine on a 8-speed cassette, however, the rear derailleur stops would need to be adjusted to either lock-out the tallest or the shortest cog. 7 and 8-speed chains are the same width; just make sure your chain is long enough to accommodate the largest-largest combo.

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    In addition to the previous posts, Rhyno Lites with XT hubs are a very affordable, fairly strong build. I've been running them on my Rockhopper for about a year and a half now after trashing the stock wheels. I don't have to true them very often, and the rims are machined with a rim braking surface. If you get disc hubs, you won't have to worry about compatibility with rims brakes.

  5. #5
    183 BRO's before hoes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thoggard
    After one short ride on pavement, this new wheel already shows evidence of lateral movement and something in the area of the hub is making a clicking noise which is also felt with each downward push of the pedals.
    I promise you that is just how new wheels are. It is extremely common for a new wheel, even one hand built, to loosen up on the first couple rides. I would take it to the shop and politely ask for them to re-tension the wheel.

    One wheel I built loosened up enough for the tire to rub on the seat stay after a quarter mile. Another wheel I built has survived 5 years of my 260 pound self abusing it without a single adjustment needed.

    Often when the spokes are loose the wheel clicks.

  6. #6
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    You bought a 350$ bike. The bike shop, seeing your budget, probably thought that was the best they could do for you. Honestly, nobody who really wants to go mtn biking does it with a 350$ bike, unless it's due to financial constraints (where it's still a mistake- an inadequate bike costs more at the back end) or failure to research and communicate effectively. It costs 600 to make something that won't dissolve off road. Your bike shop hooked you up with a free wheel, but it's of the same quality. I wouldn't blame them for selling junk, you can't make a good bike for 350$. Pardon the candor.

    <$1k bike reviews are pretty worthless because the people buying them don't have enough experience around bikes to know what is normal, what problems come from abuse or bad set up.

    Anyway, you've got some options. It's normal for new wheels to go out of true after being ridden a couple times. But i think even with a real good true those butter-rims are not going to hold up long term. They're single wall, i think, and you can't run up the spoke tension to compensate for their softness. So you could go buy some new wheels. Ordinary 32 spoke double wall rims with deore level hubs will probably work just fine. I would probably consider getting something nicer though, the cheap bikes are cheap all over. Chat with your shop about returning it for something else, but don't act like they owe you. It's retail, nice friendly people get better advice, service, and hookups. If they won't do it, i bet you can sell a 350$ bike on craigs list for 300$. Pass it down the road.

    As far as buying on craigs, yes, your money goes further there, but you need to know exactly what you're looking at, and the savings may evaporate if you're not handy with a wrench.

    Sorry for all the negativity, my cycling career has created a swath of broken parts, and i'd love to save someone else that frustration.
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  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=scottzg]You bought a 350$ bike. The bike shop, seeing your budget, probably thought that was the best they could do for you.

    Thanks for the info. From all of you. I posted a similar thread on a different biking forum and heard crickets. But honestly Scott, my budget was higher, not by a great deal, but higher none the less and that budget was broadcast to the employees. I told em I could not afford the 29er for $2400, but I was good with a $500 to $600 purchase. The Raleigh was the only bike they currently had in stock that fit my height and this is where my frustration lies. They could have easily told me that I needed better, but instead they provided me with misinformation. And now I'm stuck with rubbish cuz I seriously doubt this mom and pop shop bike store will take the bike back even with the promise that I will spend more money in their store. Maybe I will have to go the way of craigslist or the like, but what a bad taste this incident has left.

  8. #8
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    That sucks. I'm 6'3, i know what a pain it is to find something that fits. I think you were more the victim of mis-communication than anything else. I would go talk to them.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by winter
    The spacing between the cogs of a 7-speed and 8-speed setup are the same; therefore, you can simply install a new wheel built on an 8-speed hub and the rim of your choosing. However, keep in mind that 7-speed hubs are 130mm (if memory serves me correctly) while 8 and 9-speed hubs are 135mm; you should be able to just pry the rear triangle apart slightly to fit the 8-speed hub. The 7-speed indexed shifter would work fine on a 8-speed cassette, however, the rear derailleur stops would need to be adjusted to either lock-out the tallest or the shortest cog. 7 and 8-speed chains are the same width; just make sure your chain is long enough to accommodate the largest-largest combo.
    I believe the newer 7 speed hubs are 135mm. Not saying the freehub will fit an 8 or 9 speed cassette (unless it uses a 8/9 speed freehub body with a spacer and I have no idea if they would do such a thing)

    I don't think they have put 130mm hubs on MTB's for quite some time (early to mid 90's?). I think it was only the early 7 speed that used 130mm.

    Just to double check, I measured a 7 speed wheel I had from a 1996 GT and it is indeed 135mm.
    ================================
    To the OP, I would hesitate to put too much $$$ into your bike, but obviously you need the wheels to hold up.

    Honestly, most $500 to $600 bikes will not hold up to too much more abuse than your $350 bike.

    If your bike has v-brakes, it might be best to get a v-brake only wheelset as the spoke flanges can be set further apart (and symmetrically on the front wheel), thus making a stronger wheel structure.

    The purpose of an entry level bike should really be to let you see if you really like the sport without making a large investment. If you really like it, you will make the most economical progression if you ride it often and only repair what breaks (but don't put too much $$$ into upgrading even the parts that break) and begin saving for your next bike.

    Many of us learned this lesson the hard way (don't ask ) and the temptation to upgrade damn near everything is hard to resist, but rest assured that trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear is an exerci$e in futility.

    Sounds like you could use an experienced friend to guide you as you go here and I know it can be tough to wade through things here or hang by your thumbs waiting for a good response.

    Here are a couple of decent wheelsets for a decent price that should hold up for you. The rhyno-lite is a pretty strong rim and I have no hesitation recommending them to abusive riders even though they are relatively inexpensive. These are v-brake only:

    http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/132...-Lite-Rims.htm

    The rhyno-lites will work with disc or v-brakes:

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...+Wheelset.aspx

    Here are some others that would be OK, but if you're concerned about strength, I'd play it safe with the rhyno-lites.

    http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com...d&productId=24

    http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com...d&productId=25

    This is the spacer you would need to use a 7 speed cassette on an 8/9 speed freehub (that would come with the wheelsets I listed). Same part from different places (if you order a wheelset from jenson, you'll save on shipping if you buy the spacer from them):

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...e+Spacers.aspx

    http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.a...VERSION+SPACER

    If it were me, I'd go for the XT/Ryno-Lites from Jenson. The XT disc hubs should be fine for you (I weigh 270lbs and have used them for many years). JMHO.

    Good luck.

  10. #10
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    I promise you this is NOT true If a wheel is build properly and detensioned properly it will not need touching again for some time. Obviously the wheel that lasted 5 years was built right and the one that didn't last 1 ride wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChromedToast
    I promise you that is just how new wheels are. It is extremely common for a new wheel, even one hand built, to loosen up on the first couple rides. I would take it to the shop and politely ask for them to re-tension the wheel.

    One wheel I built loosened up enough for the tire to rub on the seat stay after a quarter mile. Another wheel I built has survived 5 years of my 260 pound self abusing it without a single adjustment needed.

    Often when the spokes are loose the wheel clicks.

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    I agree with the poster who said to use FIRM DIPLOMACY and ask for a return with credit toward a better bike. LBS owners are usually not out to rip anyone off, and are generally good honest folk. However, the level of actual skill and experience of LBS staff varies greatly and is not standardized in any way. Any kid who fancies himself a bike mechanic and can convince an LBS owner of the same, is a bike mechanic, no certification etc.

    this means often, honest mistakes are made that put 200 lb plus people on $350 'mountain bikes' that are more suited to light rails to trails riding by a 175lb person or lighter. If you are calm, decent, but firm, and explain that you aren't currently happy with what they've done for you, they are pretty likely to help you out.

    However, be prepared that at 200lbs plus, and wanting to do any sort of trail riding that includes even the smallest jumps etc... you ain't gonna get away with a $350 bike and be happy with it.

    Bottom line: Go back to the bike shop, say thanks, but this ain't working, and be prepared to upgrade.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy33
    I agree with the poster who said to use FIRM DIPLOMACY and ask for a return with credit toward a better bike. LBS owners are usually not out to rip anyone off, and are generally good honest folk.

    Bottom line: Go back to the bike shop, say thanks, but this ain't working, and be prepared to upgrade.
    +1

    Take it back and upgrade to a better bike

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj
    I believe the newer 7 speed hubs
    http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/132...-Lite-Rims.htm

    The rhyno-lites will work with disc or v-brakes:

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...+Wheelset.aspx

    Here are some others that would be OK, but if you're concerned about strength, I'd play it safe with the rhyno-lites.

    http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com...d&productId=24

    http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com...d&productId=25

    This is the spacer you would need to use a 7 speed cassette on an 8/9 speed freehub (that would come with the wheelsets I listed). Same part from different places (if you order a wheelset from jenson, you'll save on shipping if you buy the spacer from them):

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...e+Spacers.aspx

    http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.a...VERSION+SPACER

    If it were me, I'd go for the XT/Ryno-Lites from Jenson. The XT disc hubs should be fine for you (I weigh 270lbs and have used them for many years). JMHO.

    Good luck.
    Good info and links but the OP said he has a 7-speed "freewheel" not "cassette", so as I was gently told about my sow's ear you cant put a freewheel on a cassette hub, but he could get another cassette too $ but he has 7-speed etc...etc..

    And jeffj great advice and I wish someone told me this when I got my bike "..but rest assured that trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear is an exerci$e in futility."

  14. #14
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    I'm not sure about the disc to rim set up, but my Rhynos are awesome (I've only had them for a few months, but I've given them a beating).
    Now go home and get your ******* shinebox.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atari
    Good info and links but the OP said he has a 7-speed "freewheel" not "cassette", so as I was gently told about my sow's ear you cant put a freewheel on a cassette hub, but he could get another cassette too $ but he has 7-speed etc...etc..

    And jeffj great advice and I wish someone told me this when I got my bike "..but rest assured that trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear is an exerci$e in futility."
    Since this is the OP's first bike in 15 years, and the bike is a 2009, I'm going to go out on a limb and state that the bike comes with a cassette hub.

    Also, the info posted by winter above is incorrect. The difference in spacing is in the width of the cassette carrier (freehub body), not the overall hub.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnlwthrn
    Since this is the OP's first bike in 15 years, and the bike is a 2009, I'm going to go out on a limb and state that the bike comes with a cassette hub.

    Also, the info posted by winter above is incorrect. The difference in spacing is in the width of the cassette carrier (freehub body), not the overall hub.
    This bike spec list the Gear as Shimano MF-TZ21 7spd (14-28t)
    http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/moun...-3/?page=specs
    and this part shows to be a freewheel
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacks_Back
    I promise you this is NOT true If a wheel is build properly and detensioned properly it will not need touching again for some time. Obviously the wheel that lasted 5 years was built right and the one that didn't last 1 ride wasn't.


    I'm not talking about just loosening up on pavement or XC trail. That was a quarter mile of drops, jumps, wallrides and a few flights of stairs.

    Both were built right, one was just way overbuilt and the other was a really crappy wheel that wasn't up for the abuse.

    After the re-tension it lasted another 3-4 rides before getting cracked and the seam pulling apart.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atari
    This bike spec list the Gear as Shimano MF-TZ21 7spd (14-28t)
    http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/moun...-3/?page=specs
    and this part shows to be a freewheel
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.a...S&currency=USD
    Thanks for that. I had no idea they were still putting freewheels on hubs... Sounds like Raleigh REALLY cheaped out there.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by winter
    The spacing between the cogs of a 7-speed and 8-speed setup are the same; therefore, you can simply install a new wheel built on an 8-speed hub and the rim of your choosing. However, keep in mind that 7-speed hubs are 130mm (if memory serves me correctly) while 8 and 9-speed hubs are 135mm; you should be able to just pry the rear triangle apart slightly to fit the 8-speed hub. The 7-speed indexed shifter would work fine on a 8-speed cassette, however, the rear derailleur stops would need to be adjusted to either lock-out the tallest or the shortest cog. 7 and 8-speed chains are the same width; just make sure your chain is long enough to accommodate the largest-largest combo.
    Not exactly.
    The cog spacing is slightly different between 7-speed and 8-speed, so you'll struggle to get smooth shifting using a 8-speed cassette with 7-speed shifters.
    Your new bike probably has 135mm rear hub spacing (it would be really stupid to still make an mtb with 130mm spacing, but you may want to measure to be sure since it's also pretty stupid to be putting a screw-on freewheel on a new mtb), if so, you should be fine getting a new 8/9-speed wheelset. Then you just need a spacer Like This to put a 7-speed cassette on a new hub. Or you can just get a cheap 8-speed shifter and cassette (or 9-speed shifter, cassette, and chain).
    Though as others have mentioned, you really need to think hard before putting more money into that bike.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  20. #20
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    Again, thanks to all of you who have provided input. But, just out of curiosity and these questions are more for my education than anything else because I have opted to get rid of the Raleigh, say I upgraded the wheels, the cassette, even the chain and shifters - what then? What would the next concern be? If cheap bikes are indeed cheap all over, would it perhaps be the frame cracking or just more cheap components going tits up? I hate to think that the entire bike is crap not only because I allowed myself to get duped, but because that would just reinforce my current belief that somewhere, a bunch of people who design, build, and sale bicycles are laughing at us all for paying such an outrageous amount for quality. I mean really, this stuff is made in foreign countries for pennies and then sold to us for big money (well, not me, not yet - I only paid $350 of my hard earned income). I don't know why I thought the bicycling world would be different - just naive I guess. Thanks again though, your combined input has been very helpful.

  21. #21
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    The wheels are what suffer the most, those single wall unheattreated rims and cheap freewheel mechanisms don't hold up to impacts and large torque loads. The bearings are unsealed (and possibly not adjustable), so the bike is pretty sensitive to water. Cheap shifting mechanisms can be fussy, but they don't usually break. Frame, fork, cockpit components are indestructible, it's cheaper to make a sturdy heavy piece. Drivetrain is pretty bomb proof too, assuming you don't shift poorly. 7 speed has more room for slop and wider gears, even if they're a softer metal. Pivots in the derailleurs and guts of the shifters will slop out more quickly. The steel chainrings can be bent with hamfisted shifting. Cheap disk brakes are impossible to keep properly adjusted.

    Building, shipping, and tuning a bike costs the same no matter what the final cost of the bike is, so you get relatively less for your dollar at the low end. There's less profit per $ sales in them too. Everybody loses, but they sell very well.

    I'm definitely 'poor,' but i go mtn biking several times a week. I ride a steel hardtail that would probably cost ~2500$ to build. It's cheaper for me in the long run, and the stuff works exactly as it should. Your 2000$ mtb is your 400$ snowboard, your 25k car, or your 100$ hiking boots. Good, quality stuff that you appreciate and intend to wear out, but nothing special. Of course, a non-snowboarder isn't gonna know the difference between your plank and something that came from Costco for a quarter the price.
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  22. #22
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    Well, the lbs refused to take the bike back and then stated they had no desire in purchasing it. They did say they would be happy to sale me a new bike though and "would give me the best deal they could". Further, they offered up the idea that if I hung on to the Raleigh, I "could then have a riding around town bike". Oh joy! Guess I'll be trying to sale it via craigslist or the like. Two quick questions: Are the entry level all suspension bikes such as those made by trek, gary fisher, diamondback, etc., as poorly made as the entry level hardtails? Any recommendations? Looking to save upwards of $2000 for new one. Thanks again.

  23. #23
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    Seems like it's time to look for a new LBS.

    In the meantime, start searching for a good used bike. You'll get more for your money that way. Just like used cars, someone else got to pay for the depreciation. I bought my "new" bike off of Craigslist. It's nicely upgraded, and I got it for less than half of what it would cost to buy it new.

    The only advantage I see to being the original owner, is the warranty. That wasn't as important to me, as the money.
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  24. #24
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    Time for a new LBS. That's really too bad. I doubt you'll lose much money in this transaction, and honestly, if you really get in to the sport you'll be happy to have gotten this nonsense out of the way. Go check out how many 'upgrade' threads there are in the beginners corner.

    Yes, entry level full suspension bikes are just as bad. I think they're worse, there's more places on a full suspension bike to cut a corner for $, and low end suspension components really make their presence known.

    +++
    Here's what i would look for in a bike that was to last a long time and see hundreds of miles offroad.

    XL- essential.

    Sealed bearing hubs- an indicator is to look for a rubber boot right outside the axles, but some hubs have them even if there's no boot. important.

    Double wall rims- you know why. very important.

    BB7 mechanical disks or a big name (avid, hayes, shimano) hydraulic- off brand hydraulics can be meddlesome and hard to find pads for down the road. BB7's are the only mechanical disk, so far as im concerned. Rim brakes work alright if you don't have any extended steeper downhills and don't intend to ride in the wet, and avid bb5 and hayes hmx-1/2s are alright on a budget. important.

    Fork with motion control, tst5, manitou-not-fluidflow - you pay a big upcharge for it, but if you want to go fast offroad in comfort and control, this makes the biggest difference of any component. Ask if you will be able to get a spring for your weight, or if it's air sprung and can be adjusted. very important for singletrack, irrelevant around town.

    deore level drivetrain- honestly, beyond deore is pretty subtle compared to below deore quality. Front derailleurs don't matter- they all suck. important

    Avoid anything that is labeled 'race' or 'lite'- unless its gary fisher, he calls everything race and light. 'Race' bikes aren't very fun to ride, and light parts generally aren't as sturdy/stiff or desirable for bigger folks. very important.


    As far as bikes themselves go, get what matches what you want to do. You don't automatically pay more for a different style of bike or anything. Every brand makes stuff at pretty much every price point, and there are few models that are really turds at a given $ value. All the brands probably have the same amount of value in a bike at a given price, but they choose different components to spend more money on.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  25. #25
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    +2 for the new lbs! That really sucks!!!!! Sorry dude
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  26. #26
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    this may get flamed but did you try looking at dicks or sports authority etc? they have some nice 400-600 on sale sometimes,but dont expect them to work with you to much for problems like bent rims that may arise.
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